The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Cape Fear’ Episode 4: Dude, Where’s Your Toe?

Episode Date: June 19, 2026

Jo and Rob stop by the pop-up to recap the fourth episode of ‘Cape Fear.’ (0:00) Intro (3:49) Mailbag check-in (16:26) Santería Watch (23:31) Max and Tom (27:21) Anna and the mystery woman (35:58) The Bowden kids (48:55) Our Natalie theory (54:49) Awards (01:01:34) The ‘Cape Fear’ corkboard! Email us! [e-mail] or [e-mail] Follow us on IG and TikTok! Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady and Devon Renaldo Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles and Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Disney Pixar's Toy Story 5, now playing only in theaters to get available now. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast. We and I'm Joina Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. And believe it or not, we're here to once again talk about Cape Fear. They keep allowing us back into this building to do this. And I don't know why.

Actually, we have not left since we were here for the Widows Bay finale. If you did not catch it, we did do the Widows Bay finale live. That was a fun time. So you guys might want to check that out. Anything else? We should say there are plans to cover the final season of the Bear upcoming. Yes. It will be Van Lathen and Charles Holmes who have been covering it for the last few seasons.

They're just going to bring it home. So that is what you can look forward to. But we, meanwhile, are in Savannah, Georgia for the foreseeable. We couldn't bear to be locked into a pressure-packed kitchen. No. We need this instead. We need the slow, sweltering boil of Savannah, Georgia.

If folks want to reach us, and they have, with their thoughts on Cape Fear, how can they reach us? They can always reach us, Joe, as you know, at prestige TV at Spotify.com. But in particular for your Cape Fear-related thoughts theories, weird AI-slop-turned fan art, Uh-huh. Think of a baby carrot at gmail.com. Yeah. Don't send us your AI slob fan art. By that, I mean, you have to make the slop and then actually draw something from the slop.

Yeah, I would prefer them. They not make the slop in the first place because that costs the bottle of water. But, like, maybe if there's a existing slop. Do you want to make fan art open? It's a great point. Episode four is called Pierced, and we know why. It's written by Tara. Wait, why?

The fork stabbing into the fruit, I think, is what is. what it's about. Must be. Written by Tara Shivkimar and directed by Reid Marano. And as I mentioned before, Reid is a director's name that really caught my attention. She was, she's trained as a cinematographer before she became a director. And she first popped on my radar when she directed the pilot of Ham Madesdale, or maybe all of that season of Ham Madesdale.

I think she did the whole season. And that first season of Ham Madesdale was like such a huge deal when it came out. It's a great season of television. But she's the first one. in history to win both the Emmy and the DGA for directing a drama series in the same year for Handmaid's Tale. She also did cinematography on Frozen River, Kill Your Darlings, and the Skeleton Twins, like, you know, great movies.

So, like, hiring her, she always has, like, very distinctive visual, splashy style. And in this episode, we get, like, dramatically canted angles and, like, all this other stuff. Also, I would say the saturation cranked up to a million. Oh, yeah, the blues were blowing. What did you think of this episode, either visual. or anything else. I'm having a great time. Again, I don't know week to week if this is any good.

There are lines that we're laughing at for a variety of reasons. There are things that are happening on the show that are just bat shit insane. We had a great time watching it. It's so much fun. Yeah. And so whether that's the intended effect, I suspect it is one way or another. Sometimes. Sometimes, but I'm having a great time with it.

Yeah, so welcome back to Trash Rapese Theater. We are here to talk about Cape Fear. I also enjoyed watching this episode. Can I say this is a good show? I don't think so. Can I say it's a great show? Maybe. Honestly, maybe for our summer purposes.

We will be bringing back the conspiracy board at the end of the episode that we introduced in last week's podcast episode. But throughout this discussion of the episode, we will be adding cards to the pile of what we will be pinning on the board later. There's so much every week. I know. And if we missed anything, press each TV at Spotify.com or think of a baby carrot at e-mail.com. All right, mailbag. Like, first and foremost, we did get a report from a real Southerner, friend of the pod, Katie Rich. I do resent the implication.

That you're not a real... I just don't think a Texas boy should be weighing in on a Savannah, Georgia accent. I think what we've proven as Texans is we can weigh in on whatever we goddamn well, please. And we will, whether you like it or not. This is a bad look on you. But Katie Rich, unprompted, friend of the pod, listener of the pod. was like, hey, do you want some accent checks for me and actual Southerner? Please.

Yes, please. And she said, Anna Baryshnikoff is nailing it. Okay. So shout out the Nepo baby Anna Baryshnikov. Great job. On the other Nepo baby front, she said Kate Winslet's son wobbles in and out but is good when it's there. I guess that's the British expertise. That's what she said.

I asked her what her great on Amy Adams was. She said, oh, very poor. But it's kind of more that it seems to make her uncomfortable to use it. She's so weirdly muted. Patrick Wilson is definitely more comfortable with it. So that is the assessment so far. But I'd be curious to hear from other Southerners what they think of the accent work on this show.

I'm very interested. We did get a great email from our listener, Tim, who went through and timestamped all of the like, hey, did you realize this show is set in Savannah moments of the first couple episodes? And I just want to read them through. It was honestly, seeing them all together was frankly embarrassing for the show.

So opening title, Savannah, Georgia, in episode one. Tim was like, cool. Leopold's ice cream shirt, That's what Patrick Wilson is wearing at the barbecue in episode one. Sure, obligatory. Coastal Empire beer. Settle, if you know, you know, things for locals. Cool.

Variety of on location shots. Podcast or interaction. SGLP event, nice to see. Cougar. Some thoughts on that. And then black coffee from Savannah Roasters. So odd. This is where it goes off the rails in my opinion, Tim says.

I work at the Humane Society on Sally Mood Drive. Why? Or the Savannah bananas who gave him, who gave him. Tim drugs. Enough already. So Tim has tapped out, Savannah expert, Tim has tapped out by the end of episode two, but I did request an ongoing running list from Tim or anyone else of all of the Savannah references that may be flying overheads. We got a SCAD location inside of this episode, but I'm curious what else we might be missing.

Oh, we have fully crossed the bridge, too, from like subtle regional specificity into we're just going to name drop all these things for absolutely no reason in ways that real humans kind of don't really do in exactly this sort of way. It's so uncanny at this point. Yeah. You know what? There's a lot that's uncanny about this show. We got a ton of emails.

Let's go through a few. Oh, Ted, let us know that Wesley Strick, the screenwriter of the 91 film, played the ER doctor trying to reset Max Kiddie's arm in the hospital. So that's a very cool. Fearverse cameo. In terms of like who else might show up from the fear verse,

my favorite suggestion we got from our listeners is that Kelsey Grammer, who voiced sideshow Bob, in the Cape Fear episode of The Simpsons should show up and I'm like and like step on a rake or something I think that would be really fun like what do you think?

Yeah, what would his role be? What do you want him to do in this show? I don't know, but he has to go like into the microphone goes without saying. Maybe he could be a fellow inmate in a flashback somewhere. Oh, that'd be really fun.

We got an email from our listener, Matt, about the creator of this show, Nick Antosca, because I had like read some of his credits, but I missed this one. Matt said that he co-created a brilliant show on Netflix called Brand New Cherry Flavor.

Have you seen this? I haven't, but it's one that's been on my list perpetually because I really like Rosa Salazar. You are such a Rosa Salazar guy. I don't know how to take that, but it's true. Compliment. You know, for like Maddie's number one boy, you're going to vibe with Rosa Salazar.

It's a Wicked Little Lynchian series about Hollywood in the 90s with a magnetic Rosa Salazar, Catherine Keener, and Manny Jacinto. That's for me. Well, Catherine Keener's for all of us. Let's be real about that. It's a wild route that incorporates witchcraft, sexual politics,

I see echoes of it in Cape Fear with a lot of psychological terror, cycles of revenge, and light body horror. So some fun, you know, if people are like, I have not trashed apiece enough with Cape Fear, perhaps brand new cherry flavor is for you. So fun advice from Matt. Thank you so much. We got a lot of emails about cutting your tomatoes with a serrated knife. Yeah, what was the verdict on that?

Guess what you were right? I didn't doubt you, though. You didn't. You were open-minded about the serrated knife situation. But yes, one should use a serrated knife and the only reason that Maxx is. kiddie, pinched the tomato is because he was using a chef's knife and not a serrated knife. Please do report back.

If you want to dabble with a serrated knife in your tomato slicing, I'd be curious to hear your reports. If a nice knife company wants to send us a serrated tomato knife, we did get a listener who sent us a link and I was like, actually it wasn't that expensive. Maybe we should just make Spotify buy us tomato knives. My only problem with it is just in the realm of one utility kitchen tools. I mean, I just have too much stuff. You know, I can't have a knife that only cuts tomatoes.

You do have a pan just for Madeline cookies. No comment. Okay, fair enough. On the drug front, we got a lot. Like, no one can agree on what it is exactly that Tom is microdosing. I believe we got no fewer than like eight different, very confident assertions of like, oh, no, this is definitely ketamine. Oh, this is definitely chademic. Oh, this is definitely GHB.

Yes. Those are the three main candidates is LSD, GHB and ketamine. I will say that, like, Reese's email about LSD was sort of the most compelling to me because Reese was just, like, really nagging all of the other options. Barring some bizarre rare drug or completely inaccurate portrayal of some other drug, the drug Tom is taking should 100% be microdcing LSD. You don't microdose mushrooms in liquid form. GHB makes you feel super drunk, super fast, so it wouldn't be something he would be taking

while waiting in his son's hospital room. The only other plausible drug would be ketamine, but I don't believe. believe you would take it that way either. My guess is that at some point, it will get switched out for something, making that mind control drug you meant, maybe that mind control drug you mentioned, or maybe macro dose of LSD to make him freak out. And then Katie was like, or Lister, Katie, it's definitely kind of bad. So, like, jury is still out. But LSD is sort of like an interesting, you know. All interesting theories, I feel more confident than ever in our uncertainty of what this drug is. Correct. I just don't think it's THC. That's like some other people were like, it's just

THC. I was like, I don't think that's what's happening here. I don't think so either. I did find the experience of reading these emails to be highly educational. I learned about some drugs I've never heard of before. So, you know, it's really a journey for all of us. What is Cape Fear, if not an educational program? Truly. About the perils of living in Savannah, Georgia and interacting with a lot of animals. Okay. Fun fact from our listener and Jessica. Trish, who shows up with Ethan Embry in the previous episode at the pool, is played by Sunny Mabre, I guess is how you pronounce her name, which is Ethan Embry's real wife. They married for the first time in 2005,

divorce in 2012, and they got remarried in 2015. So a Hollywood love story. A Hollywood love story and mirrors the chaotic energy that they have on the show. I really love it. Anything else. We took an interesting email from our listener, Nick, who was talking about the way in which Max Katie is presented in this show versus the 90s version

and the 60s version, about specifically sort of like sexual assault as Max Katie's crime in the previous two iteration. but not, you know, it's just merely murder, you know, in this iteration. But removing the sexual assault element, like, what does that do to the story? You know, we've already talked with the fact that, like, there's no doubt in our minds

when watching the previous versions that Max Katie did what he was convicted for. He definitely did it, even if Nick Nolte's character in the 90s version, like, buried some evidence, but, like, he definitely did it. here we're meant to, as you said from the jump, sort of like, question what's going on. I still don't have any questions about that, but like the show wants us to ask that question for sure. I have questions about the specifics. Clearly, this is a menacing, terrifying man who is... What did he do to get that watch off that car salesman?

Nothing good. Yeah. Yeah, he's threatening lots of people at this point, not just the Bowdens, right? Going around messing with guys like the guy at the car dealership. Women like the one who came up and like tried to come on to him while he was having his ice cream Cohen. It's like there is a level of terror to him that transcends this like personal fixation. Anyone who gets in his way or tells him no of some kind or irritates him, he feels justified in menacing them in some way or another to varying degrees. Very chill stuff.

But what is kissing Anna in this episode, if not some kind of sexual assault, I will say? So I don't think it's entirely absent from this show. It's a forced moment. Yeah. It's incredibly uncomfortable. The two actors are also playing it in such a fascinating way. where it's like there is a familiarity to what is happening, even if it is unwelcome and aggressive. Yes, absolutely. Last but at least, I think, before we go into sort of like

our scene by scene, is that Matt, who is not watching the show, but listening to the podcast, shout out you sickos out there. You're very special to us. Just the realist ones, honestly, to go along for an audio-only journey for a show you're not watching. We did get a lot of emails from people saying

you didn't remark upon the fact that Nevea's name is heaven spelled backwards. And you know what? We didn't, and we should have because that's exactly the kind of show we're watching here. Right. Let's lower the bar as far as what we want to talk about on this pot. Absolutely. But Matt said, one thing that occurred to me listening to you all

is if there's a character Angel X slash Nevea, which is obviously heaven backwards, and a drug that might be called devil's breath. Is there any chance that Katie having a bunch of tattoos of eyes based on your description is somehow a reference to the old, quote, biblically accurate angel description of Ezekiel, quote their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands, and their wings were completely full of eyes as were their four wheels. So I don't, you know, we're going to talk about the, we get a more specific information about what religion it is that Max and perhaps some other people in this show are practicing.

We'll talk about Centuria, not on an expert level by any means, but we'll talk about that a little bit later on. We don't. We ain't got no crystal ball. But like these religious, like heaven, devil's breath, all of that sort of stuff, that sort of. biblical associations. Do you have any thoughts on why they would be here? I mean, so much of it is so muddled at this point in terms of how they're being wielded, what they mean. I'm not even sure the show will ever have a good wrangling grasp of it. Right. But I do think it also feeds into, like, that sort of description and the mirroring of Max Katie's visible, like, tattoos with the depiction of an angel specifically is a really

evocative idea. It's like him as an avenging angel, if nothing else, right? This is somebody who clearly has been wronged in a way we don't know the how or why yet at least he is under the impression that he has been and so like how worthy is that justice what is his end game and all of this I found myself asking that a lot as he was kind of navigating these situations

with Anna of like what does he want does he just want to have the we're not so different you and I sort of confrontation is it a means of revenge is he trying to ruin her professional life or personal life or both what is he after exactly do we think

absolute ruination. Yeah. I think he's trying to call, like in this episode, he compromises her, right? The fact that she goes to him for help puts her in, like, so vulnerable, you know, like, he's in there. He gets a confession from this guy that she needs by whatever means necessary. And so, yeah, dragging her down to his level, we're not so different, you and I. But also, like, he recorded that, what else did he record? You know what I mean?

And so, like, what does he, what leverage does he have on her now? He's just going around gathering leverage on people or compromising them in one way or another. And that's really scary. And it's scary how dumb the Boten's are that they keep just like, you know, willingly, gleefully skipping into like random pop-up piercing, you know, houses or whatever the case may be. They're just like dumb, dumb skunks, getting drowned in a pool. It's part of what makes it trash trippies, you know? Like, you have to have characters. This isn't straight horror, but they are behaving like characters in a horror movie.

Skunk behavior. I don't mean to insult skunks, but for the metaphor. We already covered this. Skunks are intelligent, and I won't have you dragging the reputation through the mud on this show. Bunches? Like, what are they? They're dumb animal of prey some kind. Bunnies do seem pretty dumb. Okay. So let's start where the show starts, which is opening on Max performing a ceremony. And this is where we go into Centaurio watch, right? So we get language later that makes it like overtly clear that we're talking about Centauria here. And we've seen evidence. You know, the same, you know, objects that he's using in a ceremonial process here is what we saw in the Bowdoin household related to Zach is what we saw in Amy's house when,

I don't know if you recall, but she shot herself in the head twice. Twice. I can't unrecall that. So here's what our listener, Melody said before presumably she saw this episode. I'm thinking at Centuria, similar to some other things that originated in Africa, but may its way to Central and Latin America. Clues that stand out to be pomegranate seeds are symbolic in their religious practice. Ritual animal sacrifice and cutting off parts of the animal, at a toe, perhaps, is a form of spiritual practice

and they believe that they can derive power from eating parts of this slaughtered animal. Can I interest you in a baby carrot, perhaps? The evil eye in Centuria represents an envy as a curse, aside from the tattoos. Katie makes mention that Bowden's wealth as enviable often. And like Katie, they often wear white linens during their ceremonies

and their other sacred color is blue. So that's, that's, we are not pretending to be experts in any case. This is what Melody sent to us. If you have other more specific information that you would like to send to us, I always love to learn from people. So press each to be at Spotify.com. But we, you know, we get mention of like Orisha, Santero, Shango, which is, you know, getting your crown. Max mentioned Mention Shungo is this like this god of the spirit that is that he claims or is claimed him. of fire, thunder, lightning, virility, dance, drumming, strength, and justice in the Yoruba religion

in Centria. So is this interesting to you? What do you think? Very. I think, well, especially because we have sort of two tracks working here, right? There is the actual practicing that Max seems to be doing in this cold open, for example, right? Muttering words in Spanish, like, we'll see kind of what the implications are of, I would say is practicing some kind of like twisted version of Santoria, right? Like wielding it in a way that is clearly malicious and channeling this energy in a way that is untoward. We were talking to our producer, Dev, who knows much more about this than we do, and we were sort of coming to this conclusion that, like, if the show is presenting Max Katie as a, like, righteous and true practitioner of Centuria, that is like...

I would be shocked, frankly. Bad and problematic. If they're like, he's taken this, you know, practice in this faith and twisted it to his, you know, his means, his purposes, like, that's sort of more what I think is going on. So I don't think like what he's doing should be seen as indicative or representative of other practitioners of this particularly. So there's however he's actually practicing it and whatever he may be intending with all that. And then there's what he uses it for in this conversation with Smiley and really for Anna's benefit, I would say of the plausible deniability of I'm going to say that we are of this similar like cultural background so that I can come with you and you don't have to ask too many questions up front about what I'm going to

do. Sure. And then as soon as you leave the room, I'm really just not going to even say what happened in there, but I have this recording, this temptation to dangle in front of you. But ultimately, other than maybe the affliction of justice, there's really nothing about what happens with Smiley and the snakes that has anything to do with Santeria or faith whatsoever, I wouldn't say. Just information for us, the viewer, more than anything else.

And I do. And information that, like, you know, he said that this guy, Smiley was at Tarwater Prison with him. And so, you know, is this where – because the flashbacks that we got to Max's childhood, you know, it was like a giant crucifix on the side of the river and a sort of like baptism sort of imagery. So I think that was the faith that was practiced by his family growing up. Yeah. His dad. And so we already put religious trauma on the board.

So this idea of like warping a religion into abuse, which was already existed in his childhood, is that what he then did with a religious trauma. practice that he might have encountered when he was at Tarwater with this other guy, you know? Definitely could be. And the toes are paying the price. So we're adding Santaria to the board. Absolutely. Do you want to talk about snake stuff now? Let's talk about all the snake stuff. Here's my question for you as far as Smiley goes. How many snakes are too many snakes? Oh, so we had snakes growing up in our like classrooms, like corn snakes. Okay. Like one tank, several corn snakes inside? I think never more than three snakes in one classroom.

Okay. I think that's... That's enough. I think three is a good number. I did have a Friday who had like a whole wall of like snake chariariums, but I was deeply uncomfortable in that room. It's just a lot. I think if you, look, live your life.

If you want to have a bunch of snakes, I can't say I support you, but I support your choices that lead you to this point. Some people are cat people. Some people are snake people. I just can't wrap my head around. the kind of pet having where you have to make a pass. Or the snake might wrap itself around your head. Well, obviously, that's part of it.

But more so that I have to go like check every terrarium to make sure one of them has not escaped in the night. How do you feel about the fact that we are like Euphoria back in snake territory and severed toes territory? Euphoria is going to wear with us. Nazis, toes, snakes. Like, this is our personal vision board. I didn't want to manifest it, but apparently we did.

I'm pretty upset. So we're adding Smiley Pit. Do you think he's going to come back? Smiley Pit is going to be. added to the board. I think this is probably the last we see of him, right? Could be, but I'm putting him

on the board anyway. Snake stuff, definitely going on the board. There's so much snake stuff. Max was very, like, cozy with the snakes. And then, RIP, that one snake. Our producer Kai was like,

there's not enough dead stuff on the board. So we're adding this dead snake to the board. I was unclear personally if this was Rose, his one named snake. Yeah, you really wanted to make sure we got the identity of the snake, right? I just think it's in like

the Ebert economy of characters that like if you're going to bring know something up, they have to like pay off in a certain way. So it's like the fact that one snake is named, wouldn't it stand to reason that that's the one that Max stabs through the head? RIP Rose, is that the titular piercing, do you think? Honestly, lots of, piercing's abound. Piercings everywhere.

All right. Tom, of course, belongs to a country club. So I'm adding the country club to the list. Is it a country club? Yeah. Or is it just like a member's only club? And is there a difference? What's the difference?

What's the meaningful difference to you? I'm going to say not much, but I bet if you're a member of a member of a member of a a country club or a member's only club, subtle but meaningful. Like, what is the difference? Well, for what, I think country club involves sports. You have to have a golf course attached, but this is that golf? Or tennis courts. Oh, okay.

One of the two, or at least a, at least a pool, you know? You think there isn't a golf course, like, right outside the window there? Unclear. Okay, so you think it's like a gentleman's club? I think it could be a gentleman's club. Interesting. Could be a fancy elk lodge, you know? Who is to say?

I definitely think Tom belongs to a country club. He's got the vibe. Okay, excellent. Country club, we're adding into the list. No more club. quibbling here. Max is here. He's joined Tom's Country Club,

or Gentleman's Club, as you prefer. This seems to be just like a first foray into a longer seduction attempt, because that's what Max is doing, right? He's trying to be like, you don't have to be afraid of me. And if you are afraid of me, I'm going to menace you. That's what he did with Ray. Do you feel like he was menacing, Tom here?

I thought so. Tell me more about that. I mean, you don't go up to a dad and say, hey, your son really needs a dad. You are the father, obviously. Like, nothing about this is seduction. It feels much more menacing. I don't know.

Let me buy you a drink at your country club. See, that's in the country club world. Oh. You know? He just, like, put his dick on the table. What the fuck do you know about country club culture? Don't let me tell you, we're all making it up as we go. But I'm saying, and like, he comes in with this, like, very aggressive, I would say, like, overbearing

macho sort of energy. Are you from country club people? No. Okay. But you're a tennis guy? Do you feel like that's why you know? I'm a public court tennis player. Come on.

It's honestly very different. Don't even get me started. Okay, let's go back to you knowing the nuances of the social ins and outs of the country club. I just read it much more as like what's happening with Anna, there is a type of seduction, right? A temptation of I'm going to dangle this bait on a hook for you of this piece of evidence you so desperately need. This was not that. And I think some of it is Tom is not as open to Max's advances in persuasion so far. He's like very repulsed by it.

This whole interaction on his side, super cold. super removed. I'm getting out of here as soon as I possibly can. Does not want any part of it. I did see, you know, like Max is constantly performing inside of this episode. Even when he's like, when he was menacing that guy at the dealership, it was with a smile on his face. Like, he's still performing in some way. But when he started talking about his kid, that felt real to me.

Kind of. It's so interesting because Javier Bardem is so full of menace and at times so full of shit. I don't mean it feels like earnest, like I felt for him. Yeah. It just felt like this is a mania, an obsession of his. I could see that. Why was that sonogram photo on the, on the like ceremonial, you know? Yeah.

So it was sonogram photo, the draw, the illustration of the AI slop that supposedly came from Zach, the cowrie shells plantains or bananas, could be either one. Yeah. Was there anything else involved in that little like on an altar setup? I don't know. but we are adding the AI Slop drawing. Your rendering of Zach's rendering of the AI Slop Drainaird is going on the board for sure.

Got to. Anything else you want to say about this, Tom and Max interaction? I love these two in isolation too. I hope we get much more of this. I hope it's not just Max and Anna. Oh, no. I'm as interested in this dynamic as well. I've dialed in.

Let's go. Oh, I will say one thing about the drawing, I know we're kind of shifted off of, like this is Max's unborn son, who is being drawn. Yeah, AISLap, Adam. You want to tell the folks what got the biggest laugh

while we were watching this episode? Because I think it might have been that. I think it might have been that drawing. The drawing is, it's tough. The hairline is tough. There's a lot happening. I say this not uncharitably having acknowledged all of those things.

If you want to adjust the bangs just so on that drawing, if you want to bring a couple of lines in, it doesn't not look like Natalie. Oh, wow. Look at you. scad himself, R critic himself. I'm just saying

a couple of quick alterations and we've been debating since the first episode like is Natalie Max Katie's biological daughter. To go back to another show recovering or have been covering

you're saying that Widows Bay Island does not look like a hand but you're saying that AI sloft drawing of Adam looks like Natalie. From a certain point of view. Wow. All right.

Juliet Lewis and Amy Adams. Here we go. First of all, Rob, I know you don't like Halloween, but would you reconsider perhaps dressing up in a green rain slicker and a face mask? I would say, why wait for Halloween?

Why aren't we doing this for the season finale? I think I'm like full up on costumes with all the vampire shit I'm doing on House of R. That's your own doing. But if you want to get a blonde wig and a green rain slicker and a face mask, I will consider it. I think you should consider it.

Just know that if I do those things and we do a podcast with me wearing them, I will be performing in a like breathy, lilting, creepy voice the entire time. That's not so different from your current voice. Okay, listen, you're welcome. Great stuff. Fingers in the window is

a real move, right? Anna cracks the window to be like, hi, I wouldn't do that. If I saw Juliette Lewis prancing in the street, I talked straight through the window. Or are you driving off? I'm driving off. Wow. And if she's in front of me,

I will keep driving until she... That's actually distinctly not true. The place I lived before, L.A., there were just wild turkeys on the road all the time, and they would just get in front of your car, and sometimes I would just sit there. Because I'm like, I'm not going to menace the turkey. They're scary. So I would just wait for them to like gobble on, and they would just take their time. I feel very confident that this is the only podcast where you will hear Juliette Lewis compared to a wild. When you're a mid-sized business, you need every competitive advantage you can get. Like an AI solution that works for you, not against you.

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Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in. Loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo.

So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify advertising. You're among fans. Turkey. Our listener Larry has a theory about who Juliette Lewis might be playing, right? Juliette Lewis is playing his Max Kitty's half-sister, I have to believe. knows about his dog, Kate's childhood, and is the right age. Katie said his father had another family when Katie joined them at 13.

And as I mentioned, Larry wrote another email with this. As I mentioned before, there was a young woman watching on the shore during the baptism. So how do you feel about this as like a half-sister figure? I'm compelled. I think some of it, if we want to tie in... Maxine, Katie. Yeah, Maxine would be very funny. But if we want to tie in Anna and Julia Lewis isn't.

later in this episode where she's talking about the quote unquote horrors that she has tried to warn off of being in Max's orbit. Yeah. I mean, clearly that is meant to be intimidating. It's meant to be like scary to watch and her framing and the way she's talking about it. I also wonder if it is more this is a damaged person trying to make a genuine effort of concern in her way. That's how I read it.

And so the idea that she knows Maxwell well enough to try to warn these women away from him. And she's attempting to do that with Anna, but in a way that comes on quite strong. But also, like, I think, like, whatever happened, if she's his half-sister or not, the implication to me is that this woman, you know, quote, was made a whore by, like, was also whatever he did psychologically sexually to Amy and Melissa,

he did to her as well. Well, that's the question, right? Is she in the line of these other women who have been romantically entangled? Or she more of a half-sister character? The way that she's sort of like, well, why or? I mean, this is the show where it would be both. Who am I kidding? I already have an incest card for another pair of characters on this show.

Or also maybe half siblings. So, yeah. Cycles repeat. She was sort of like the way she was dancing in her underwear to the butthole surfers on that video did not strike me as truly sisterly. So that's all I'd say about that. They have a complicated relationship, clearly whatever it is. Let's just wrap up the Juliet Lewis of it all.

Given that there was a kiss between Max and Anna, an uncomfortable kiss, we are adding that kiss to the board. Got to do it. She shows up and she says, I saw you with him. And she has a video camera. So to me, that says there is now video evidence of Max and Anna kissing. Yes. That without the context of him, like, kind of forcing himself on her, if someone else sees it, again, that puts Anna in a comprehensive. Especially at a distance.

Yeah. Like from that remove where you don't have all the information. Right. I think it's kind of an underlying thing throughout this episode, this idea of not only you could be watched at any time, but you could be recorded at any time. Yeah, that sort of tech paranoia. The tech paranoia. And it comes through with Smiley and the idea of like a one party consent audio state.

Yeah. Got to know your rights. Yeah. It comes through at the car dealership where that whole encounter is being recorded at a, again, at a slight remove. So who's to say what it is or what it looks like, but the impression at a distance could, that might be the kind of thing

that ultimately works against Max Katie, right? As he has this smiling image to so many different people. Here he is kind of intimidating this guy and being like right in his face in a way that is clearly a confrontation. That idea of like you could always be watched inside your home, on home or anywhere is something to think about.

And in this case, not only can you be watched, but then you can be tastefully reflected through like, I love the glare of both the sun and the giant-ass light that Julia Lewis has attached to her camcorder. Again, just kind of... That was a great shot. Keeping us, like, at a slight back foot in terms of ever being able to read her face or impressions or what she indicates at any time. We cut from this, and this is like one of several visual flourishes that I quite enjoyed in this episode, we cut from this to Natalie stabbing a piece of fruit at breakfast, which will then, of course, come back during the nipple piercing scene.

But I just, like, loved that image of, like, the... juicy red strawberry getting, you know, pierced there. I'm putting Learner's permit on the board. Natalie is very stressed out that she does not have a driver's license. So I'm putting learners' permit on the way. Do you think we're going to get a scene later this season where she needs to drive, like Tom's been shot and she needs to drive him to the hospital,

but she's like, no, I can't. I don't yet have my license. Well, does it count as having a licensed supervised driver if they are like passed out and gunshot in the backseat of the car or something like. that. You know, in Georgia, probably. Yeah, I don't know what the rules are in Georgia. That's fair. By the way, California is a two-party consent recording state. I do that. Absolutely, it is. I don't know all the one party can, that's, it seems like everywhere should be a two-party consent recording state. I'm going to be honest, it's mostly the ones you'd expect. Okay, tough. Tough for Georgia. That's a real Southerner-un-southerner crime for me.

It's just, it's just the truth. Peanut Butter is here at breakfast. Something really struck me about this breakfast scene, not just that, like, that Natalie calls Tom a, Cuck. Like, she does drugs one time and she is, like, ready to be a bad seed. Like, she is ready. Did you take this as a proper Chekhov's Cuck slash Cuckshadowing? Oh, Cuckshadowing. Everything that is in the air as far as what her actual parentage may be. I'm adding Cuckshadowing to the board. Were you just mad that I coined Trashterpiece and you wanted to put Cuck shadowing in there? I'm never mad at your brilliance, you know?

I simply want to follow you into the depths. Okay, great. Cuck shadowing. Interesting because that is our theory. Well, no, not really because she would have been cucking Paul, not Tom. But Tom is still, I mean, he's even worse, the second cuck. Oh. The step cuck. The cuck who stepped up?

He is kind of the cuck who stepped up. Shout out to Tom doing actual parenting in this episode. He's trying. He really is. I wouldn't say it's always successful. I wouldn't say everything he does is perfect, but he's making an honest-to-goodness effort. When he's like, golly G. Willikers, we went to an art show and I think it's going well, with Zach. That was just like one of my, like, hey, buddy, if you want to go to, this is great.

This is really neat. Remind me a lot of some dads, I know. We're just sort of like, I love this art show stuff you're interested in. Also, all the voice to text with him is, it makes me laugh every time. The thing that really struck me about that breakfast scene, though, is Ray being like such a member of the family. Yeah. Like, he's in the kitchen, making coffee. Making the good coffee. He's like familiar. Savannah Coffee Roaster shout out. He's like familiar with Natalie. You know, like, he's just like friends with all. He's not just like Anna's co-worker. like embedded in the family. And I just think that that's a difference of this archetype of this role that we've seen in previous iterations of the story, a more incorporated. Well, this has been there from the very beginning, right? Like, he was over there for the barbecue to open episode one.

Like, he is fully integrated here. Yeah, yeah. I just think there's a difference between being invited for a barbecue and like straight up making coffee in someone else's kitchen. That's a degree of intimacy that is hard to come by. How many people in your life are you familiar enough with who are, like, you're not related to that they could just wander in. and make coffee in your kitchen

and you wouldn't really bad at eye. I think literally like one person. Yeah. Honestly. How about you? It's an exclusive list. Probably fewer. Yeah. I think it would be very weird

for somebody to do that. Your kitchen is your sanctuary. So it's a different thing for you, I think. Zach in therapy. All right. So we get more of the Tom Talking Heads flashback.

We get more information. That he has told everyone that his brother died in a car accident when clearly his brother like hung himself. At least told his kids that. Yeah.

I don't know what Anna knows. Yeah. That would be the variable. Talking Heads, posters there And then the thing that you thought was He Man is very close. Conan the Barbarian. Very close.

Tom Fires the therapist It seems to me that Tom Fires' therapist because he's like, I don't want to talk about this thing. I'm in deep denial about this thing that happened to me. Of course. That's what he's like, get out of here. Like, not anything to do with Zach

where he's like, Zach doesn't trust you. Zach doesn't take you seriously. I mean, it's all a ruse. Yeah. Can I stand up for my guy Tom for one second, though? Yeah, your guy, tough. He needs to be in therapy to talk about this stuff. Yeah.

I think the therapist suggesting we are going to loop in your lifelong, deep-seated family trauma into your son's much more recent guilt-ridden selfie-leaking trauma. And like, why are we entangling these things when these people both need dedicated individual care? And this is where we got Nemo from our listener, Nicole, where I really agree. I'm not, we're not parents, but I agree with Nicole who says, as a parent, if my daughter bit off her toe and swel followed it. After the ER run, she would have immediately been in the best psychiatric care Savannah had to offer. There would be no trip home, no Savannah coffee roasters. I would have taken at least a week off work. My life would stop. And I would tell my boss what's going on so she could have a normal human reaction and reinforce any other choices. Every time I see Zach do something,

text weird people, walk around his house, shake hands with Max Cady, exist without help. I am taken out of the story and just made super angry. And I agree. We are adding a segment to this podcast of like too dumb to live. And I don't think this is the thing. But like, Tom and Anna are not only like questionable parents to begin with, but like, their behavior around Zach is, I can't understand it. It's incomprehensible. That is the word incomprehensible.

Your kid biting off their toe, as the email alludes to, would be the only thing you think and talk about for a long time. Like I get that Anna, like Tom, I like, you know, because Tom is like a shittier lawyer or like a less altruistic lawyer. So Tom is the one who seems to be like taking more time off work. Yeah. Even though Lexi's coming over and they're microdosing drugs while Zach is upstairs. It's kind of off work.

But I understand that Anna is like, I have an important job. But I'm with Natalie where I'm just sort of like, fuck you, dude. Like take some time off work. Be with your family right now. I mean, Natalie is noticing if no one else is that, you know, Anna's falling through on a lot of things she says she's going to do. All right, Sports Corner. You wanted to linger with Natalie at soccer.

I really like to. What do you want to say? I mean, many things. One, this whole scene is very strange. As far as Nevea creeping up behind the goal, having a full on conversation, nobody seems to notice her. Natalie just walks off.

No one seems to notice. Are you positing Nevea is not real? I'm not, but the show almost shoots it that way, as if she's a figment of Natalie's imagination. Maybe that's kind of like the subtext, but not the literal. Like, she's not a ghost. Yeah.

That said, I think Natalie being a goalie to me is a very specific character. Be it a goalkeeper, if you prefer. I do. Very true to her character, as I understand it. And I would say specifically the idea that a goalie... Are you pandering the world? You're not a soccer guy. I'm not.

Okay. But I'm a sportsman. Okay. What do you know about goalies? Well, I think the role of a goalie is similar to many and many different industries and walks of life where it's like if you're doing that job well, no one really notices or talks about it unless you make the exceptional. save.

Okay. But the one time you fuck up, the callies of the world are like, what's your problem? But like all fingers are pointed at you, this like pressure-packed perfectionist position where you get really very little praise for the day-to-day of what you do. Yeah. That feels true to everything else we're hearing about Natalie. I agree. I'd be curious what, you know, we know that Bill Simmons is watching and enjoying this show.

I'll be curious to see if we get any text about the soccer play because I remember he had a lot of notes about yellow jackets and like how the, you know, how the young women were playing soccer on that show. So I'll be curious what he thinks of. I mean, she is clarified here more spiritually Megan Rapino than actually Megan Rapino. Yeah, tough. It's okay.

Maybe she had those shoes that her grandfather tried to give her. She would have done a better job. Well, it's not even a quality thing. It's just a positional issue, you know? That's true. That's true. Okay. Tom and Zach, let's go fishing.

Let's go to the art show. Yeah. Let's take a dip in the pool. Hey, where's your toe? Patrick Wilson? Emmy. I ate it again? Amy, Emmy for Patrick Wilson.

Hey, where's your toe? I really don't think there was a single Patrick Wilson moment in this episode, line or reaction shot that I did not have like a physical response to. The man is completely positive. I want to be very clear about that. I love him on this show. Hey, where's your tell? I just wanted to carpet some DM. Joe Anders, who plays Zach, I thought he was really good in that art show scene when Beth, the mom,

was really laying into him in a way that seemed unnecessary. Like, I... No, I'm not defending him. I get it. I'm not defending him, but when Tom's like, Beth were leaving,

yes. Like, let Tom take his son away and just de-escalate. She's escalating. Let's de-escalate. That's what I have to say about that. I think if you're the parent of somebody who has been wronged

in a profound, and at that point, like, social life-altering way, if not life-altering way, you get a little defensive, you know? But I don't think this is Beth's first rodeo at like telling Zach that he's a piece of shit. And let me tell you, it's not her last.

That woman has not said everything she has to say. Tom's like, Beth, I'm trying to handle it. All of this. She doesn't even know about the time. Here's the thing. If this were a neutral situation, they just... I'm not defending what Zach did, obviously, with this young woman.

Well, you've been doing that off mic for weeks. You've been saying that Sophia really had it coming. It's like, I just thought it was very weird from you, Joe. Really, I'm very afraid. What were you going to say? If this were a neutral situation, They're just all at the grocery store. They turn the aisle into the cereal and they're like, oh my God, here we are.

He did follow her to the art show. He stalked her to the art show. You know, that's fair. He had the brilliant idea of like... I just really think Tom saying, Beth, we're leaving. I want the interaction to be over. I don't want to continue the interaction with this like clearly troubled child. Maybe if I'm Beth, I'm like, hey, why isn't he in therapy literally right now?

Like, you know, something like that. But you're a bad person and you should marinate in your guilt forever. Look, it's not the most constructive thing to say to a child, but I don't think her role in here is like as a parent of the community. It says a parent of her own daughter. You need help. You're a bad parent. Get him help.

Why isn't he committed to second? Maybe, maybe. I mean, he deserves to be too. Maybe. Beth, we'll leave. And then we get the pool scene. So we have this like, I may go stick my head in the oven, which triggers Tom again to think of his brother. We see him sort of hit himself in the face.

Yeah. which we already saw Zach do earlier the season and Tom stop it and be like, hey, don't hit yourself. But this is something he learned from Tom. This is something like Tom does to sort of snap him. Like when he's not microdosing, I guess he's like slapping himself out of these moments of recollection.

Or whatever. And then we get the pool moment. Did you have a moment where you were like, you know, Zach is trying to end his life in the pool? Like, how did you react to that? I thought it would probably be bait and switch. It's just too early in the season for stuff like that.

And really, I think the importance of so many of these scenes is establishing Tom as the boiling kettle character, right? Like, Zach, we're showing everything he's going through. He's having a really hard time processing what he's done and what he's done to hurt Sophia, among other people. But even using his therapy as a chance to turn and look at Tom and say, like, you've got a lot of stuff you need to work out. You're not talking to anybody about.

You're lying about actively. And even his advice to Zach in this moment after he dives in the pool is... I thought about the man I wanted to be. be and over time I became him. Exactly. That sounds so much to me like I have created an artifice and I have crawled inside it and I am pretending

to be that person but I am not actually that person. Like what I wrote down is like what is lurking underneath for Tom? Right? So like what when a Max Katie or someone else chips away at when you know the veneer of success and

happy home and nuclear family and all this sort of stuff is is what this show is, is what the story of Cape Fear has always been about. How do we unearth the rot underneath this sort of like idealized American dream? So like in the 90s version, we just like learn more and more about Nignulty's character as it goes on or the ways in which Juliette Lewis's character is not being supervised and all this other stuff like that. And so here it's like what what lies are responsible for propping up this incredibly like extremely. like extremely affluent, white, you know, family in Savannah, Georgia.

And the ways that they're kind of self-destructed within those lies, right? Everything, what Tom is hiding, his own past trauma with his brother and his inability to be open about it, is what leads him to think that his own son might be suicidal, that leads him to dive into that pool to save him. When in reality, Zach is trying to do the thing his therapist told him to do, which is like, activate this dive reflexes. It's like a very real thing in terms of quieting anxiety in your head and drowning it out with like, physiological response of breathing, right? You were streamlining everything that's going on inside you. So he tried to do the thing as therapist said.

Tom interrupts him because of his own shit. And that is like a straight line from there to him reaching out to Angel X at the end of this episode because he needs relief from somewhere and he can't get it in his own home anymore. I guess. But like it's also, that came directly from Sophia texting him. Well, sure. But you're like if he had had more time and dive therapy, he would have been able to handle that better? I think everything he is being shown in his own home is like,

even when you try to take care of yourself and do the things your therapist says, it's not going to work. Your family won't allow it. Just like the atmosphere in this place is inhospitable to it. Stifling. All right.

I forgot to add some things to the board. Conan the Barbarian is definitely going on the board. Get him up there. Love him. Pool therapy. You want to make this dive therapy or pool therapy? Let's keep pool therapy. Pool therapy is going on the board.

Nipple piercing. Do you want to talk about the nipple piercing? Not really. I mean, we went straight from soccer. into everything else, but this is a significant part of this episode, and it was a lot. It was a ton. What do you want to say about it, though? I don't know what to say.

I just think everything that's happening with Nat and Nevea in this episode is so much rooted in the idea of, like, how far can Nat just be pushed at this point? And it's fast. It's far, and it's fast. But, like, speaking of, like, what's lurking underneath for, like, you know, for Tom to say, I've crafted this persona and that I became that person dipped in handsome, like, you know, successful lawyer. For Natalie, as Nevea

sort of deconstructed last week, you know, it's like the currency of buying your security with perfect grades, college applications, playing soccer, all these things. It makes sense that for a younger person,

that sheen of perfection would crack faster. Yes. It really does seem like, though it was like, one party pushed her right over the edge. But here we are. We're in nipple piercing territory.

We're in nipple piercing territory. I think there is part of Nat's character who, yeah, by her background alone, is just very gullible. Rhymed. There are puppies and candy and this unmarked van level gullible. It's a pop-up piercing. She is susceptible. In a ramshackle house.

She's just like going along with this stuff in a way that I think makes sense for who she is and where she's been. I also am fascinated by Nevea's role in this story for both kids, where she has wormed her way into both of their lives as the pressure release for them, right? This idea that after, I mean, we even probably. we also need to talk about breaking into Nat's crushes house and dressing in her clothes to have sex in her bed. Wi-Fi jammer. Yeah.

Nevea has a Wi-Fi jammer that can deactivate home security systems. Can't imagine where that would be useful. Yeah. So what home security systems have we seen glitching so far on the show? Got it. Drug vision. When Nat's on the bed and she's like, you look pretty in my crush's clothing. Like it gets all like...

All your swirling heads. look so pretty. Bug vision, like, refracted, uh, uh, you know, sort of thing. And this is, this is post smoke being blown in her mouth too. So who knows what was going on with that? Who knows what was in that? Yeah, we get the blowing of the smoke and then the blowing of the, of the dust powder later. And if it is this drug, this, what devil's breath, it makes sure, it makes sense that it would come in these like exhalation forms. Incest. We're putting it on the board. Incest. It simply demands to be. Natalie is Max Katie's daughter, which is our strong suspicion. Yep.

And as we learned by the end of the episode, Nevea is Max Katie's daughter. Then this, you know, young, I just felt bad for Natalie because, like... It's not good. You know, she's, like, connecting with someone. It's a bad choice.

But, like, she's connecting with someone after being rejected by her friend, who was also her crush, after feeling ostracized. And she, like, found someone to have this, like, and she's like, I always get anxious with other people. Like, you, it's quiet.

And she's being manipulated. and it's probably her half-sister. And you know what? That's a cautionary tale, kids. Is it? No. Do we need to be on the lookout for that? I don't know.

No, but I do think there are the literal drugs, which clearly have an influence. And then there is sort of the drug of this sort of, like, pressure release for these kids who are wound up so tight, in part because they are in a house that is a web of lies in ways that they both understand and don't. Well, Zach gets more complicated, though, because he was just, like, sort of already a hot mess before all of this started.

But it's like, again, how do kids become a hot mess? I think there's lots of organic ways that could happen. How long have they been in contact? Him and Angel X? Yeah. Did that start after he lost all of his friends in the Sophia incident? Or did that happen as part of it in the first place? I would, I mean, I guess it could have been a motivating factor.

And we do get Zach trying to insist, like, I'm not this person. You don't know the full story kind of stuff with Sophia. She understandably does not want to hear any of it. No. So maybe there is another shoot-a-drop as far as that initiating action. To go back to you implying that I am citing with Zach over Sophia, I will just say this. Sophia is allowed to say anything she wants to say. Like, I have no objection of her being like, I unblocked your number just to tell you what a piece of shit you are.

Like, that I'm like totally on board with. It's the adult woman that I was just sort of like, can we have? The adult woman is her mom. All right, what haven't we talked about that we want to talk about? Okay, so when Max is talking to Ray and Anna about helping with Smiley, he says this in very, very important thing, right? It's not enough to persuade you have to compel. And so this idea of compulsion, whether it's like drug-assisted, you know, when we watched

Amy in the first episode, shoot herself in the head twice, it certainly seemed upon the second time that she was compelled over the phone to do something. Yes. So what other forms can these compulsions take? Like if Max is trying to persuade the car dealer to give him, you know, sell him the car and be cool and calm down. But then he's just like, what is what does compulsion mean for him? Violence? I think in the case of how do I get this watch, it's violence.

Yeah. Right? That's not an, I'm going to blow drugs in your face and slowly convince you. But I think there are clearly a lot of ways that someone like Max Katie can be persuasive. And someone like Nevea can be persuasive. And the most interesting ones. to me are the ones that play with this germ of an idea that's already there. Right. Like, Nevea, even without the drugs, plants the seed of you're the perfect daughter who isn't

allowed to do anything wrong. And then just kind of keeps feeding that idea until it becomes something that maybe under the influence of a substance becomes more easily manipulatable. Yeah. If there is this, I mean, like, it's wild to me that this drug apparently exists in the world. But we also got like several other emails about it. So like, if this drug exists, that is, makes people sort of vulnerable to suggestion, I mean, that's scary to me that that exist, but also, like, when you go back to that party scene, you know, she gets her high and then she, yeah, she is, like, sort of feeding her these ideas, like, almost like a hypnotic suggestion or thing.

Like, they're not your real family, all these other things. So, yeah, upsetting. Not great. Guess what? This show. Oh, we should note, Nevea does bust out the knife in Callie's house. Oh, yeah, I meant to add that to file. We don't have a card for it yet.

But, yeah, she is so ready to kill Callie's fault. For no reason. She is eager to do that. And Natalie is too goo-go-eyed-stracted to realize that the girl behind her has busted out this whole ass knife. It's a sizable knife too. It's significant. I think we did it. I think we did.

Zach's burner phone makes an appearance. We already knew it existed, but we did get to see it. So there's that. It's in his closet. Also, when Tom comes into Zach's room and he's like, what are you doing in here? And he's like, he tells him something, but it doesn't see. seem true. He says he was like looking for his A6. Yeah. When reality, he's probably digging out

that burner phone. I would think. Okay. Anything else? I mean, there's just like a lot of random loose ends in this. For example, the idea of Tom coming to his son to take him fishing. And it's it's so clear, at least it was clear to me in the way that it's played in that moment that like Zach is of the age where he maybe is trying to distance himself distance himself from the stuff he did when he was a kid.

Out of way, childish things. But also kind of wants to do it. And like him reliving that moment. and like charcoal sketching out the trout later. Yeah. There's clearly a relationship right there. And Tom in his way, yeah, the advice may not be perfect because it reflects his own imperfections, but he is trying to reach his son

in like a really earnest place when they have their moment in the pool. And I don't know that we've seen any of that from Anna as of yet. Like her relationship with her kid seems so much more distant, so much more like practical. And even in the practical part, she can't show up for the driver's licensing. Yeah.

And a bad mom? I'm not willing to go that far, but she's not a good mom. Tom, great dad? Definitely not willing to go that far. They both seem like quite bad parents, but some more... Tom, at least in this episode, appears to be trying. He is attentive to the details. He's showing up for the therapy appointment.

Attentive to the detail. All right, we're going to hand out some quick awards. Too dumb to live. Who's the most too dumb to live in this episode? Anna. Anna. It might be Anna every week, honestly. But it's definitely Anna this week.

She showed up to a known murderer's house and was like, Hi. You might be entitled to this one. I'm a lawyer. Thinking she can just ask all her cute questions. Right. And it's going to be totally fine. Right.

What are you? This man is talking about how his snake needs more bones. What are you doing here? And she's like, that's cute. Can we talk about where you were the not of, yeah, it's a lot. Anna, too dumb to live. Come on. Trashiest moment

I think this has to be Okay here's the thing Trashiest moment For the incest isn't great It's incest That's it How is it not incest Well at least one of those characters

Doesn't know Nevea may or may not know Okay What's your I'm gonna say For the characters in the show How are we defining trashy? I think it's

It takes many forms And many styles Because to me it's like What is the soapiest twist of this Okay See I was thinking like, what is the trashiest behavior that's exhibited? Okay, what do you think the trashy? Yeah.

I don't think, no, I don't think what Natalie does there is trashy because she doesn't know. I mean, she's broken into someone's house, but like, she's a teenager, exploring things, whatever. That is a so beat twist, though. I think it's trashy at the show to be like, let's do some incest. We see some of both. See, mine is some of both. I would say the trashy's decision is showing up to a random house that's a pop-up nipple piercing situation. Tough.

Wouldn't do it. Yeah. The trashiest, like, filmmaking, cinematic. choice in terms of the way the show is made is definitely the puncturing of the strawberry as the nipple piercing. It's both amazing and undeniably trashy. Let's just add to the incest

argument though, the triangulation of she's also definitely slept with Zach. So Nevea has slept with... Has she? I think she has. I think she's done some stuff. He feels like she could have strung him along without actually doing a lot, but... You think that's

just a lip-biting emoji and nothing else has happened. She sent him like a racy selfies. You think nothing else has happened? So do you think she has the lip biting emoji as her like profile avatar picture somewhere? Oh, you think he put that in there for her? Maybe. Gross. It feels like the kind of thing. Unfortunately, he might do. So gross. Why it is, it is so much grosser if he did it, but I can't articulate why. Horrible because he just scroll through all the emojis. Like, you know what I? That one. That's the one. Last not at least. What are we calling this? Weirdest line read. Weirdest line read. Yeah. I think We agree.

Yeah, you want to do the honors? I don't know if I can, do I have the cadence right? Nice car. Nice car. I'm jealous. Is that right? It's a little Tommy Wizzo. Do you want to do it?

Well, I think the opening is definitely like a hey. Yeah. So you got to go, hey, nice car, nice right. I'm jealous. I'm jealous. Also, the way, the particular relish, it's very funny. The relish that Javier Bardem puts on ride shirts. Yeah.

I mean, this is just one. of our greatest working actors. Cheerio on your butt, your cheerio on your ass. He's just, he's doing it in a way no one else can. He's menacing Ray here

because Ray had the audacity to say, we're good, we don't need your help. Yeah. And he's like, an obstacle. Let me fuck with him. So again,

if you cross him even in the slightest, he will come fuck with you in one way or another. And also on this sort of like, are they half siblings front? You know, should we connect what Juliette Lewis

does to Amy Adams in her car, you know, like, in terms of like, come up to the driver's side window and sort of like, reach in somehow. Never great. I don't ever want anyone ever at my driver's side window if I'm like in the car and not

expecting them. Like that's, there's, I would have expected you would love that kind of thing. Oh, I just, but you're just a friend. I'm just sort of like,

don't do that. Well, yeah. Text me that you saw my car. And I'll find you, you know? I think it's good behavior. It's good advice for everybody.

I've had that happen where like someone saw me in this, like, someone saw me in the safety parking lot. And they're like, hey. And I'm like, no, don't do that. They just popped up? Yeah. Absolutely not. Also, shout out Safeway. Now, I guess I had to shop at Bonds.

Whatever calamity for me. Don't creep up on anyone in their car. Don't stick your fingers into their window. No. Certainly don't reach it and grab the steering wheel to stop them from driving away. Nice car. Nice car. I'm jealous.

And look, Ray is now totally on board. I think he fully understands the Max Cady situation now. Before he was wondering, like, is this really it, Anna? Are you sure that this guy is capable of these things? Now he's experienced a little bit of it. I feel like he kind of gets the gist. He's done some detective work. Clearly.

He's the one tying things together as far as Nevae's parentage goes. Any of the questions, do you have anything you want to talk about going forward before we unveil the board? I would say two things to flag. One, at the SCAD art show, we get a clip of Alfred Hitchcock's Shadow of a Doubt, a movie about a charming but ultimately suspicious man. And the people in his life kind of starting to put the clues together. of how it would possibly relate, Joe. Do you like Shadow of a Doubt? It's honestly been a very long time since I've seen it.

Yeah. I would say I liked it. Not Upper Hitchcock for me. I would like to wonder how Joseph Cotton would deliver a nice car, nice car. I'm jealous. Just nobody put that into any AI system. No. We don't want to wish that on anything.

This is strictly wonder and whimsy. I'm just wondering. I don't want to see it. Yeah, Shadow of Doubt, which is a great movie, sort of slightly remade into the movie Stoker, which is a movie we both really like. I feel like we talked about this recently, though I can't remember why. Shout out of the down Stoker. It's never a bad time to talk about

Sherwood Park, so like, you know. All right. What's your other thing? Oh, just like, so the SJLP, when they're trying to get movement on Ruben Ramirez's case before Max has started compelling people to help, they have this press conference. I thought it was yet another moment of sort of like

the celebrity of true crime. Obfuscating and like eclipsing anything else, right? Like, Max, The idea was bringing him into the fold is going to help them, like, raise funds, raise awareness, be something they could leverage and weaponize. All they wanted to talk about was Max. It's so clear that even his public presence

is totally outside their control. Well, like, when he shows up the card deal, not just like the guy that he is like, remember when I fucked your wife so hard, she broke a blood vessel in her eye, and I feel like we would be remiss if we did not repeat that line. But also, then the other guy's like, hey, Max, Katie, and my car.

You know, like, he's so famous locally that this is how they're reacting. And this can't be the last that we hear from the Katie Hawks. They will play a wrong. in the back part of the season somewhere. Should I add them to the board? Let's do it. Okay.

Anything else? Let's go to the board. Let's bring out the board. All right, week three of this podcast, week two of the board. We've got the cards that we're going to add. We're not going to do that on camera right now. We will do it eventually. Is that bonus content?

Is that like subscriber-only stuff? Us struggling with string? Slowly pin things to a board. Look, everybody's into something. We've started the stringing process. It's not a complete process, obviously. We have yet to connect for sure sex. Yep.

to like Natalie and Nevea, for example. Is that our first confirmed sex? I guess so. I mean, other than children being born. Yeah, I guess like Tom and Anna had sex at one point. For sure, sex. We can only assume. But yeah, here we are.

I mean, Tabitha and her cameraman, I guess. That's just like a one card to one card situation. Yeah. Anyway, so this is our, the beginning of the string. It's only going to get more demented from here. Rob has requested images to add to the board. I would. I think next week we're going to do this a little differently,

but we just wanted to give a board checkup, anything you want to say. Any connection you're most eager to draw here? The one I'm eager to but also terrified of is peanut butter the cat over here connecting to, I mean, some of the more insidious characters in our story. What about peanut butter and cat down through cooking, the cooking card? Cooking to dry turkey to Max. Don't cook the cat, please. Is the cat going to get eaten?

The cat could get eaten on this show. That's what I'm saying. Peanut butter to cooking, not the dry turkey to max. Max. It's Max Cating gonna cook the cat? I really hope not. Is it called peanut butter for our reason? We still don't have a name for Juliette Lewis's character. No. Or Ethan Embry's character, I don't believe.

Right, nothing official for Ethan Embry's character. What about you, Joe? Where are you looking to get some clarity or some connection on this board? We already drew this connection in advance, but I am curious about the, like, Juliet Lewis to Amy and Melissa. You know, the fact that this character knew Amy and Melissa and Anna was asking a question, you knew Amy, right? So if Anna wants to do her due diligence, she should continue to ask Juliette Lewis more questions, which means we get those two actresses and more scenes, which is exciting to me personally.

As it should be for all of us. Also, I'm wondering, like, what color string if we wanted to, you know, just vary things up a little bit? You already vetoed more colored string because we can't even read Anna's name at this point. We can't, and she's only going to have more strings and more connections. But I'm just wondering what kind of visual marker could correctly signify for Lexi, to Zach to Tom, I have watched you make out with my dad on our home couch.

Right, right. What suggests that to you? That's like a neon pink situation, I think. Then we might have two strings, at least two, that seems important to me. Inside every person there are two strings and one of them's neon pink. All right, so again, we did get some suggestions from folks.

We do still want to add like the nail gun. Of course. There's a few other things that we want to put up here. But yeah, prestige TV at Spotify.com. Think of a baby carrot at gmail.com. I am concerned that incest might need to be right in the middle of the board. It's going to connect to so many things very quickly. Should I make it a bigger car?

We might need to replace Cape Fear with just incest. We have added cuck to Tom's car. I mean. So, you know, you live by the cuck, you die by the cuck. If the chair fits, you know. You want to add step cuck to that. Or cuck shadowing somewhere? The board is a work in progress.

It's a living document. Cape Fear, Coling, cuck shadowing. All right. We'll see you soon. Bye. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up?

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