The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Cape Fear’ Episode 5: The Lawyer's Secret

Episode Date: June 27, 2026

Jo and Rob recap Episode 5 of 'Cape Fear,' where "weirder than last week" seems to be the guiding principle. Intro (0:00)Mailbag check-in (1:42)‘Faith’ (9:37)Anna and Naveah (15:03)Color coding (20:31)Juliette Lewis (22:12)Paul Schneider (26:37)Lexi and Tom (30:34) Natalie’s drinking problem (33:38)The Zack of it all (36:50)Ollie (48:17)Too dumb to live (49:53)The footage (52:22)Ray and Anna (56:10)The ‘Cape Fear’ conspiracy corkboard! (59:37)Outro (1:03:46) Email us! [e-mail] or [e-mail] Follow us on IG and TikTok! Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob MahoneyProducers: Devon Renaldo and Kai GradyAdditional Production Support: Justin Sayles and Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer. Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. This episode is brought to you by L'Oreal Group.

Beauty is a powerful force that moves us. That's why L'Oreal Group has built a business that is inclusive at its heart with 100% of its brands, championing diversity. With 25,000 professional opportunities for people under 30 worldwide and 54% of leading positions held by women, diversity is a strength that helps Loreal Group create the best beauty products for all people. Visit laurel.com to learn more. Come back to the first TV TV podcast, me and I'm Joanna Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here today to talk to you about Cape Beer. What could go wrong? What could possibly go wrong? Programming announcements. Our pals, Van and Charles, are rounding out their multi-year coverage of the bear. If you're listening to this episode, one episode covering the bear already exists in this feed, and then the other episode will drop on Monday.

So Van and Charles will be here for all your bear needs, and we thank them for their service. Who do you think is the sous chef in that arrangement, in the Van Charles dynamic? Like, who's really taken lead on that thing? Van would have you believe it's Charles, but I think it's actually Van. Yes, Chef to Charles Holmes always. It could be. Emails from the listeners. Where can folks reach us if they have thoughts about Cape Fear?

Thank you for asking. They can always reach us at Prestige TV at Spotify.com. Clean, simple, just email anytime. Or if you're emailing about Cape Fear, you should definitely be emailing, think of a baby carrot at gmail.com. These toes are not going to jar themselves. I've always said that. Shout out to our listener Tim, who sent us a Savannah-centric care package. We got it sort of mere moments before we started recording, so we will be digging into it in next week's episode.

Are we going to dig into it like a truffle pig? I prefer not to do anything like a truffle pig. Thank you so much for asking, Rob. Our listener, Eli, wrote in actually one of my favorite subjects, which is who is allowed to use an Apple product in this show and who is not allowed to use an Apple product. So in case folks don't know, Apple has had a rule that if you are using an Apple product in the movie, the bad guys are not allowed to use Macs or iPhones, et cetera, et cetera. Which is just like actually genuinely hilarious. Like, lest anyone think that Apple itself is evil because Javier Bardem is using it in the show or something like. The Blue Bubble Gang is not a real gang is what they would like to say.

I think there have been exceptions, though. Haven't there been a couple times where the line is fudged a little bit? But sometimes if you're watching a show and you're like, is this person evil or not, the hint is sometimes are they using an Android or not? True to life. Anyway, Eli wrote it and he said, wow, the Apple agenda. Eli wrote in to say we have most of the characters using iPhones and MacBooks except for Max's phone, which I assume is because they don't want to show an iPhone being cloned. But they are willing to let voice memos apps be used surreptitiously. Do you think that Apple has been more lax about letting, quote, evil characters use their products, especially in their own shows?

This is an Apple TV show. I noted in this episode when Natalie is in vain texting her pal Amber, aka Navaya, those are green bubbles. So I think Amher does not have an iPhone. Well, or she's blocked her. Tough. Yeah. Really tough. I mean, look, as I understand it, double texting already.

I've never been blocked. Have you been blocked? I haven't, but I think that's what happens. Oh my God. The bubbles go green? I think they go green. It's the most brutal sign of all. But as I understand it, the double text already is a sign of very.

is a sign of desperation. Oh, of course. No, the wall of text on one side of the text change. This is sex tupil texting. Yeah. Really tough look for that. After, we should note, Zach has already revealed,

at least that he knows some information or, I mean, we'll get into all that. Anna has told Nat. Also, this is not, this girl's not who she says she is. And here's Nat. It's not her name. She's Max Katie's kid.

She's been doing, she's been tasting something that belongs to your brother. And she thinks your nipples taste the same. whatever it is on your brother's body, and Nat's like, I should text her. I should reach out.

Love does persist. Okay. Someone who signed their email, CRL, wrote in and says, as an attorney, I just can't fathom that Anna doesn't know about Max's half-sister if that is who Juliette Lewis actually is. And we got a little bit more evidence one way or another inside of this episode. Did we? I said one way or another.

I'm still... I said one way or another. Evidence of something. Information. Yes, we got information. When, this letter goes on, when defending him, his family would have been the first stop for interviews. You want to know who and his family is alive, who isn't, what do they know? Can they corroborate anything that's helpful for you?

Can they hurt your case or help it? You would 100% at least speak to any living members, especially immediate family, so that you could either utilize them as a character witness or be prepared for how prosecution could use them slash discredit them. So yes, Tom should know about her too. P.S., are we locking them? that gate yet. We've got a lot of emails about this where they're just like, Mark Marysdell, lock the gates. Why are we not locking

the gates of this particular household? So, a very simple solution. Great question. The lawyers overall, I would say, not thrilled with Cape Fear. Oh, really? We've just been getting a lot of emails about what lawyers should and shouldn't know. The way that cases are reversed and people are released from prison

or not or exonerated or not and on what timelines. Let's just say it's all been expedited. Okay, this is not a profoundly legally accurate show. Is what you're saying? Not yet. Unlike something like Boston legal or something like that. I mean, who are we to challenge his credibility? It's great. Okay. SVU, unimpeachable. Chris ran in to say, Chris addresses his email to Trash for Peace Robinson and Cook Shadow Mahoney. How do you feel about that? I have no choice

but to accept it, I guess. Okay. I love the pot. Thank you so much. Inspired by your prompt, I'm here to talk on-screen Southern accents. Wow, do they typically suck, ranging from forgettably off to guess we got a fight now. On Cape Fear, Amy Adams is failing us, this glorious fail show, most of all herself. He says P. Will. Patrick Wilson's dipping in and out of what I'll call folksent, a half measure of dropped G's and slower pace. Most of my worst peers in singer-songwriterdom adopt this to indicate folksiness in lieu of actual southernness. There is, this is just me now, there is one specific drop G in this episode. Yeah.

Can I just do my really early most bizarre line reading? Of course. I'm not even sure this is my final choice. But when our fave, Lexi, says microdosen? Like I'm thinking of changing the card of the court for microdosing to microdosing. I think we should. Yeah, pretty great. Apostrophe mandatory.

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Erica wrote in to say, was thinking as I was listening to your most recent trash repeat theater recap of Cape Fear. Let's catch it on. Sweeping the nation. It really is. Let's hope Cuck Shadow doesn't. When Zach says that Sophia doesn't know the full story.

Is it possible Navaya somehow had access to Sophia's picks and sent them from Zach? We know that she, Nevea, is pretty tech-savvy with a Wi-Fi jammer and chatting secretively via games. And if Amy Adams can mirror Zach's phone so easily, why can't Nevea? She seems pretty hell-bent on destroying from within and is not shy about considering violence, i.e. brandishing a knife when Callie's dad came home. our listener Kevin also run in to say and I think we got a couple comments to this regard when when Zach is listening it's a conversation with Sophia right

he's having he is having a conversation with Sophia but a lot of our listeners were like was that actually Sophia or was that sort of an AI Sophia and then in this episode we get voice memo AI voice memos from Tom so no I think it's straight up voicemail it's like a voicemail box oh it was a voicemail box

I think it was a voicemail left overnight And it's like left on her screen as if it's a voicemail from Tom's number. Right. So either the number has been spoofed or someone had access to his phone. And certainly he wasn't the one saying that he's a man and going to stick up for her and stop rubbing against me. Right. Rush up against me. You'll see what happens.

See, I also had this thought about last week's episode as we were going through it and going to talk about it. I was like, is this a thing? Or to be totally frank, did this actress who's playing Sophia just make like a weird acting choice at the M. At SCAD? Yeah, because Kevin says if you look at that art gallery scene closely, Sophia seemed embarrassed her mom and brother were being so aggressive in public. She certainly doesn't want to speak to Zach, but she doesn't

seem to have any interest in being mean to him or torturing him, which is what that phone call was all about. Plus, some of the language of the phone call strangely mirrored what we heard in the chat in the pool that Zach had with his dad, this distinction of being a, quote, good or bad person and why Zach needed to be forgiven. Then, quote, Sophia, specifically

saying, I will never forgive you. We already know that Nevea is almost certainly hacking things in and around the house. Is she even recording any conversations too. So could that phone call, voicemont, whatever, from Sophia have been faked, certainly. You know, and the fact that, like,

Zach goes from that directly to I need to see you to Nevea, it's like the perfect thing to push him into her clutches, I guess, what we're saying. So I'm not, at first I was like, I'm not sure. And then this episode happened when we get the AI Patrick Wilson dropping G's and all. And I was like, oh, no.

It's definitive. And also, I mean, just bad news for us. As two people who spoken professionally into microphones a lot. You're much more than me, but... Oh, they've got my full vocal range. They know what it sounds like when I'm tired, when I've got a head cold, like, it's tough for me out here, honestly. I think we have said enough random shit into these microphones.

They could really piece together any sentence they want. They've got Cuck Shadow from both of us, so, you know? What horror things could you unveil just from us saying Cuck Shadow repeatedly into a mic? All right. This episode is called Faith. Any thoughts about why it's called Faith? Oh, we made a character called Faith who dies. We do literally meet Faith.

Just remember that. And we meet Faith pulling up her, like, favorite televangelist sermon. Do you have a favorite televangelist sermon? You know, I don't. Okay. I would say the closest, wait, what, do you have like a YouTube comfort video? Do you have, like, something you pull up regularly or just recurringly in your life where it's like, you know what? I need a little lift today.

I have, like, two of my favorite songs of all time only exist in, like, YouTube format. So I will like listen to them. Do you want to shout a noun? What we got? You're going to leave me hanging? Indiana University has an acapella group. Now I see why you stop short. Called straight-node-chaser.

Okay. Their version of the song Worlds Apart, I'm going to play it for you later, is one of the best things I've ever heard in my life. I can't wait. Tell me your comfort video and why it's better than Indiana University's acapellate group. I think it'll be self-explanatory why it's better. Mine is a video of Beyonce singing Halo. That is best. I want to say it's like a break room at a hospital.

It's like they've gathered a bunch of nurses and doctors at this hospital. And it's just like the single most breathtaking acapella vocal performance. But they're both acapella. I mean, they're acapella. So I guess they're the same. They're not the same. They could be the same. But it's like, you know what?

Let's just dial that back up again. And the algorithm knows and just tries to reheat it and serve it back to me all the time. that YouTube now just has that video at the top when I like open YouTube. It's just that video waiting for me. And they're like, you want to hear it again, don't you? And I do. You've had too many bad days. That's not a good sign. That's a cry for help. Hey, okay, listen. Follow question about Faith's house. Yes. What is the highest number of candles you've ever had lit in your house at any given time? You know, I was thinking about this when I rewatched Romeo and Juliet recently.

The Boswell and Romeo and they go into the family mazoleum. I hope not. Yeah. But at the end, like, in the mausoleum scene, I mean, there are, I would imagine thousands of candles lit. And I was like, why don't I do this? Yeah. But also, who did that? You have to sort of like, I mean, obviously a PA did that.

But how many takes? Those candles are literally burning. Yeah. And like, the way they're position, you had to like lean over to get so many. Anyway, I have a lot of questions. So many sleeves caught on fire. What's your answer? The answer is of my own volition, no more than two.

Of my mother's volition, I can only dream. Oh, really? I mean, she's a candle enthusiast. Okay. Like the holidays? I mean, kind of all the time, but certainly the holidays. Okay. I will say...

Are they scented? More neutrals. And as time has gone on, she has transitioned to a lot of fake candles, I will say. The flickering plastic light. Oh, I know. You know? Yeah. Sometimes you got to do it.

This is what happens. The Christmas tree becomes fake. The candles become fake. Wow. You know. Just a metaphor for the American experience. Should I call up that a comfort video? Okay.

Episode 5. Faith written by Peter Blake, directed by Stephen Piet. maybe is how you pronounce that name. Do you want to start? Well, I want to talk about a bigger thought I had watching this episode. Yes, this episode inspired some deep thoughts for me. I know that this show is purporting to engage with the specific anxieties of our era. But I was struck in this episode particularly when both Anna and Tom are suspended from their jobs. About like, do I feel wholly comfortable with some of the anxieties that this

show is engaging with. And by that I mean, you just can't shove teenagers in front of cars anymore because people are just watching you all the time. This cancel culture. Yeah, absolutely. Or the horror, like, what if the hot babe at your office like gets you into microdosing

and rubs up against you and then an AI version of your voice sends a voice, you know, it's just so like, I don't know, it's just these like white people fears of scenarios that are never going to happen where they feel persecuted when they're like completely innocent. And I'm just sort of like, I don't know, I felt a little weird about it. Well, I think what works for both of those things is obviously they're not both completely innocent. But there's like an exacerbation of the stakes and the punishment.

It's like Tom has certainly walked a line. He's crossed it a couple times clearly. Lexi's right about that. But then she's like, now I'm blackmailing you for HR. And I'm like, okay. But I think it's also like, well, for one, okay, yeah, the blackmail scene is what it is. She's not blackmailing him. She's certainly not threatening him.

but she's illuminating who she would threaten him to and about and regarding. And what would be the result of the HR investigation? But really the thing that he gets busted for is, I think, what she determines to be an authentic voicemail, right? That he's actually leaving these weird messages. Well, sure. That's, yeah, as you say, that's the escalation. But I just think that Lexi's whole, like, I don't know, you flirt with, like, this sort of like, me too, you flirt with a woman once and she's going to report you to HR and she has your, you know, your balls and a vice. and like all this. I don't know. I just bother me. Anyway.

I think, look, the show is not very subtle about the theme of this week's episode. About anything. About really anything. But certainly like we are being bashed over the head with a cowrie shell totem. That you know what? Perception's reality. It doesn't matter what it is. It matters what it looks like. And literally everything that happens in this episode is about what stuff looks like. How do you feel veteran TV actor, a CCH founder felt about just getting to say the clunky thesis of the show? I think the check cleared. Okay, great. Let's start with Anna and Nevea.

Things I'm adding to the board. And we should say, we're going to bring out the cork board at the end. We're going to do all the cards at the end this week for our Cape Fear Conspiracy Corpboard. But Dragonbong and Canfish are definitely going on the board. Oh, is it a dragon? I thought it was a Gator Bong. Oh, that makes more sense. Let's check the tape.

Okay. Confirm what kind of reptile it is. Because I was like puff them out. Okay, but like Gator Borg. I'm sorry, what was the second recommendation? Oh, canned fish. The can't fit. Okay.

I have many thoughts. One, I'm a little curious, you raised earlier this week the idea of if you wanted to smuggle any snack into a movie theater, what would you smuggle? Had you already seen this episode? No, because a friend of mine brought cruditate to the toy story. That's why I asked you that. I forgot there was a whole crudetat conversation. You're right. Nothing to do with the idea of bringing canned fish into the theater and then spilling it on someone.

If the iPhone is the clearest signposts we have, they're like, hey, this character is a hero. Yeah. bringing tinned fish into a movie is just, I mean, one of the most evil things you can do. Absolutely. Diabolical. So this is, of course, a reference to De Niro in the 90s Cape Fear when Max Cady is obnoxiously smoking a cigar and laughing loudly while the Boden family is trying to watch a movie. And it's sort of like his, like, he hasn't even spoken to them yet. This is their sort of like first brush with him.

And they're like, who's that guy? How annoying. And then they're like, uh-oh, it's De Niro and he wants to kill us. So, um, so, so, so, so, Nevaea is sort of like standing in for Max Katie, which is appropriate given, uh, we've already seen her do a couple things that are very Max Katie coded and this is his daughter and you can believe what you want to believe about how much she is operating on his behalf or not.

Where are you standing on that? I think she's operating on his behalf quite a bit. It's, it's so tricky to know where the lines are, though. And I think, especially over the course, this episode, you have this sort of like dual manipulation happening where Nevea is like setting up Anna, hookline and sinker to just walk into all of these various traps after this. I mean, maybe she knew Anna was following her to the movie. Maybe she did. Maybe she was as surprise as anybody when her gator bong session was interrupted by this woman who just wants to have a chat in the middle of Babe

Pig in the City. Don't you think, I love it's like, don't worry. I know it's Babe Pig in the City. How could you not? Don't you think a Dragonbong is cooler than a Gator Bong? Depends on where you're from. But also, look, you would think that. You know, you're, you're dragging minded these days. How did you feel about the fact that this is a big time for kissing your mom on the mouth? I already told you it's incest summer for me. It really is. That's just like, that's just a subcategory of incest summer. It was just watching this stuff like basically back to back. I was just, it was really striking. You know, I guess there's a, I guess there's a movement developing. I guess. Did you freeze frame Mahoney, the, the film

posters outside of this particular rep. I certainly did. Yeah. They're very funny. Crime of the Century. Yeah. The lawyer's secret. Guilty as hell. And dangerous waters. I hope they had a great time putting those together. You can only imagine that they did.

Really good stuff. Like it was one of those moments where I was like, ooh, let me look at the film posters. Then I was like, oh, this is bait for me to look at these film posters and be like, I mean, the lawyer's secret is pretty tasty. Primo. But to circle back to the Nevea point, I think I would guess it's a combination thereof where I believe that there probably was a sincere kind of frustration over. her father being taken from her. And maybe she even reached out to Max initially, like expressing frustration and maybe she even wanted to get back at the Bowdens.

Maybe she ascertained that piece of it for herself. But true to the spirit of the show and so much of the manipulation that happens, there's like the germ of the thing you actually feel. And then there's Max Katie, like just fanning the flame, you know, just like really piping the oxygen in to get you burning even hotter and hotter and hotter and driving you toward just whatever the fuck he wants on a given day. What do we say as of last week? So this is episode five.

This is the halfway mark of the season. The episode ends with this big, like, dun, dun, done, that house he was touring was across the street. Honestly, a very funny reveal. It was really funny. It's really good. But would you say as of episode four, there was some plausible deniability about whether or not Max was like a bad actor

and all of this? And then once we get to the bar fight where it's like so clear, the way he's looking at the security camera, how much he's sending up Tom, and then obviously the AI voice memo or voice message, like that this was just sort of like Max Katie.

Yeah. He's up to no good. It feels like the Bowdens are becoming increasingly aware of it, even just like Tom being a little bit more on board, being convinced that this is happening. They're a little slow on the uptake. Tom in this episode.

Okay. Are you drinking again? Fuck you, Tom. He's really stepping in it. Just left and right. Yeah. And I think just in contention for the dumbest person on this show.

Too dumb to live, Tom, Tom Bowden this week? We're going to find out he has some competition this week, but I can't say he's making great choices out there. All the Bowdoin's. The Bowdoin's collectively, I don't know, we have notes. The kids are not all right, and yet we're still like going to the club and getting drinks with people or whatever it is. Like, why are we not home with the children is a question that I have among many others. There's a very simple answer. Entropy.

I know what entropy means, Rob. That, I believe. All right. Let's talk about fun color coding in this episode. We've talked a lot about the matching blues, how much like Amy Adams is dressed in blue, Max Katie's dressed in blue, et cetera, et cetera. In this we get the shift to the greens. Max is in this like, Harvey Burdem is wearing like one of the most beautiful green shirts I've ever seen in my life. Incredible color.

Looks like it might be silk, like just really beautiful. And then Juliet Lewis shows up in a green dress. and she's obviously been wearing that like green slicker. Yes. So like she's a green coded character and he is matching her inside of this episode. And then we get the, uh, the moment with them in the cigar closet. What does I call? I believe they're called a cigar locker, a wine locker at, as we know, the club.

That's not the club. That's not very fun, you know, cigar locker shouldn't have a fun fancier name. Well, that's why they bring the fun. Okay. You know, it's a very normal setting. Do you feel like they bring it? brought the fun into the cigar locker this week? They brought a lot.

Okay. A lot of conflicting energy, a lot to parse. More spit than I was anticipating. Okay. Did you appreciate that move from Max Katie? I got to say, I've never seen it before. The open mouth kiss. Open mouth.

The spit during the open mouth kiss. That feels like a level of tongue dexterity that I'm impressed by. It wasn't so much an open mouth kiss in the traditional sense so much as one mouth completely covering the other mouth. Yeah. And then shotgun spitting. directly into it. Look, people are into different things. People are innovating all the time. She didn't seem to like that one. Do you think this was in the script?

I think Javier Bardem is like, you know what? I got just the thing. Do you know who I believe is a really let's do anything scene partner? Juliette Lewis. Of all the things she's experienced, this is like fifth percentile weird. I loved this. It is dank and dirty and upsetting. But I really loved the nuance of all of this because, you know, she's her own banana's, you know, self when she shows up. And she's like, oh, hi, Max. Fancy running into you here. Like, amazing stuff. They're in the cigar locker, I guess. And he seems like drawn in by her, like insorseled by her to a certain degree.

When they're in the cigar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he's like angry that she's there, uncomfortable that she's there. And she's like, I know where you live. Like she knows before the Bowdoin's do. That's why I guess she was on Anna's street when she was, like, looking for Max. Anna's like, this is my house dumb dumb, and actually it's Max's house too. But he seems like, you know, he says nasty shit to her.

He calls her, like, delusional and sick, which could feed into these, like, incest accusations from our listeners or whatever. But, like, he's also, like, he's the one who initiates the kiss with her. Yeah. And it doesn't just seem to be sort of punishing and manipulative. it seems like he is sort of like under a spell or old habits or something like that with her. Well, I mean, let's even back up before that. I mean, when he first sees her, I would say...

You want to go through this beat by beat. I really do, though. Yeah, that's great. I mean, what's your read on his initial reaction? I would say it's the first time he has really shaken up Max Katie in the entire series so far. And that's... We need this. We do.

Like, this is different from the movie, but I really like this element of, like, someone who puts him on the back foot when he is like... so in front of all these other characters on this show. And are you getting from Javier Bardem's performance? Like, is it fear? Is it anger? Is it something? Is it some of the above, all the above, none of the above? And like shame?

Yeah. Yeah. I think definitely some shame in that mix. And then the kind of spell that you're talking about, it's almost like he's physically resisting it. And then as soon as she kind of like touches him, he like leans into it. He crumbles. Yeah.

I mean, the performances here are awesome. It is very confusing. It's a lot happening. I mean, she's like, I, you know, I reached into your dreams every night and he was like, was that you? You know what I mean? Like, it was so weird. But just like the way he melts into her arms?

Person. Bissom. Whatever you prefer. Can I say Buzum or will cancel culture come for me? Anyway. Oh, no, it's already canceled. But rest assured, now the AI generated Slob version of our podcast can say Buzum any time at once.

Oh, great. Anything else you want to say about Juliette Lewis? Are you more convinced this could be his half-sister or less convinced this could be his half-sister? I mean, more, just how clearly and flagrantly the show wants to dive into incest at basically any time. You're a disgusting delusional freak. Being near you makes me want to vomit.

Well, let me correct you on that. Because I would say, if anything, this is my nominee for the weirdest line read of the week. The being near you makes me want to, and then it's like a 15-second pregnant. Pause. Vomit. It's a very normal show. Can you clip up for socially? Oh my God.

What are we doing with our lives? That was you. It's always me, Max. Like, this is just, this show is incredible. One thing I did want to note, maybe we'll see the origin of maybe we won't. But Julia Lewis has this, like,

very prominent scar on her cheek. I think we see up close and personal here. Correct. I actually go, I was like, does Julia Lewis have this? No, she does not. So this is a character scar. So maybe it's something from their past,

Maybe it's something from their escape from their weird father. Like, it could have come from any number of places. It could be for Max himself. But don't worry. She sorted it all out with the right pills. So she's completely fine now. We got those dosages nailed down. We are very in support of, you know, medical help.

You need it for mental health issues or whatever. I would say let's reassess the dosage on this particular character. She doesn't strike you as somebody who was like perfectly well adjusted in her situation. I don't think so. To be fair, you don't know what she was like before. right. I don't know where the watermark is. You don't. This could be the highest it's ever been. Absolutely.

All right. Let's talk about, okay, you noted earlier in the season and I had missed it that, you know, I don't know, character art, whatever. Paul Schneider. Mark Brandt-Anneowitz. Parks and Recreation or Elizabeth Towne Fame, if you prefer. Elizabeth Town of a movie I've seen so many times. You know what I do prefer. Yeah. He's great in that movie. He's playing Detective Grayson. Yeah.

I love. I think he's great at this. He's bringing, like, Paul Schneider is capable. Like, I think early in his career, he tried to play some degree of earnestness. That is not his speed. Nope. Smarm is his speed. And he is bringing it here. I mean, it's the same reason why Margarita Leviva has never played the earnest, open-hearted person in anything she's ever at piano. She just has a face like she's hiding something. Unfortunately or unfortunately. And, yeah, I mean, this is fundamentally the reason he does.

did not work on Parks and Rec because he could not match the earnest register of the show. And he's like too cynical for what the show became. Yes. So he's got to eject. You know, we got to get him out the back door. But here, I mean, he is exactly the antidote. He's what I wanted. To the insanity of this story.

And also just some of the deliveries are wonderful. Loitering, shoplifting, attacking with a frozen fish. So Neveh is out here like all kinds of fish crimes. That's the thing. Yeah. A lot of fish-related harassment. Yeah. She's also living in like a maggot tomb.

How did you feel about that? Not great. Yeah. Fish stuff go? Is that a thing? Fish stuff stop. But yeah, the maggot tomb with a skull that I'm a little concerned was a possum skull. I really hope it wasn't.

Oh, witch possum RIP? Maybe she took its energy. Is that a thing that witches can do? Sure. I don't know. I'm concerned for the witch possum. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about Detective Grayson who, like, is not here?

Well, what I love is that he's carrying resentment towards the Bowden family from the beginning, right? He's like, Tom used to put me on the stand despite my unsavory character, right? Like, he's... Was that reason? I thought that was just kind of cutting up with your old kind of colleague. Oh, no. I thought he was like, you've never liked me or respected me. And it's your contempt for me has been clear.

And now I'm in a position to make you squirm. See, I read that so much more as, because Tom was a prosecutor. Yeah. So it was more like the prosecutor and the cops working together to put people away. But I think it was like despite my unsavory character made me feel like Tom made him feel like he had an unsavory character. Oh, no. I think that was just kind of like, we're cut. Look, this old guy.

Bros being dudes? Bros being dudes, this old guy, but this old guy is me. Guess what? I'll take your word for it. I don't know when it's like when bros are dudes together. That was big bros being dudes' energy. Okay, great. Anything else you want to say about Detective Grayson?

Only in conjunction with, I think, a broader problem with this episode, and I would say a broader problem with television in general. TV shows need to stop trying to make memes. This is like the whole, like, Nevea jumped up like a mountain goat thing. Oh, I hate, oh. No, I see what you mean. We hear, I don't actually... I thought you meant, like, they're trying to make a viral moment.

You mean they're trying to capture what it's like to go viral on, like, TikTok or whatever, and you're like, it's not this. I'll tell you that much right now. I mean, the remixed version of, first of all, no one is saying she jumped up like a mountain goat. You don't know what they say in Savannah, Georgia? I feel confident about this one. No one in Savannah, Georgia is saying that. They might say that she's jumping like a mountain goat.

Certainly. I'm open for some adjustment, but as a basis, that line is not happening. the like attempted remix a la 2009. Really tough. Not a meme that's going viral. And certainly this cop then referencing the mountain goat situation. It's just not a thing. Like this is not a plot point.

Did this feel like a real hey fellow kids sort of moment from Cape Fear? I don't know, but it activated some TV related trauma. I can't quite place. I remember the TV show clipped about the Donald Sterling L.A. Clippers scandal also tried to do some like timeline surfing meme creation. But I feel like some of the show we covered did. Like maybe it was, maybe it was disclaimer. It was like there was something where there was an attempt at a meme. And it was like, oh, not like this.

Not like this. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales. Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations,

more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different, locked in, loyal, invested.

They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify advertising. You're among fans.

All right, what do you want to say about Lexi and Tom that we haven't already said? I mean, look, I have a lot to say about Lexi and Tom. For one, Tom has many problems going on. I would say among his most, his foremost problems, everyone wants to fuck this man. I guess. Catherine Buckley, the murderess. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

A legend. The murderess. Who then went to go get a pedicure? Maybe my new favorite character. Really great. I loved her energy when she's talking about all the men that, like, or all the people, including a charming man at the golf course, who her husband cheated. I just thought her energy was great.

I think she definitely did it. And I kind of want her to get away with it. That's how I feel. Well, I want her to stay on the show. So if that means she. has to get away with it, so be it. She also clocks Tom and Lexi, point blank, immediately. From across the room through the glass.

Can't even hear what they're talking about. Yeah, and they're not even touching each other or looking at each other. And she's just like, I see it. Just body language. But on the color theory front. Oh, pink. Well, she's come in blue suit. Yeah.

Tom's blue suit. Lexi's got the whole pink number, like very pastel pink. Also maybe silk shirt. She and Anna are both wearing pale pink in this episode. Yeah. I don't know what that means exactly. Okay. You just wanted to say colors?

Well, no. Like, I mean, the Anna parallel. I was like, I guess Tom has a type, and it's women who wear pastel pink. Sure. But no, the mirroring of the alleged murderess and Tom. I mean, clearly, she's looking to get on his page in many respects, but they have an alignment of a sort. She's not wrong.

She's like, Tom, you're distracted. He is distracted. Like, all the sorts. I just really liked her and I was on her side the entire time. Lexi, I'm not on your side. I'm sorry. I think, I just want to, I think I want to say that I'm on Catherine Buckley's side because I like to be a girl's girl and I will be this murderess's girl.

Over Lexi's. a girl's girl with Lexi at all. So this woman who's been, I mean, a victim in her workplace predated upon by her boss. And now her boss is trying to take her off the biggest case of her career. Right. And you're like, yeah, fuck her. Yeah. Maybe women shouldn't have jobs.

What do you think? I actually think she made a compelling case when she brought up the drugs. And he's like, those drugs are from you. And she's like, you're my boss. You shouldn't have taken it. That was the most correct thing she said this episode. I fucking cackled. Yeah, it was really good.

On the drug front, maybe we can ask Lexi what those drugs are, but also we can ask our emailer Amanda, who revisited episode three. And among, I want to say per Amanda's description, I'm trying to understand it as accurately as possible, the audio description subtitles for the hearing impaired, say specifically Tom drips LSD on his tongue. That's so exciting.

First of all, a bunch for listeners are going to be so mad if it is LSD because they're like, no way is it LSD. You dumb dumps. Okay. But also, we've been like wondering what's going to happen with this drug vial. Yes. LSD, I'm excited to find out what goes wrong there. A lot of things could be happening.

Could go a lot of different places. A lot of people could be macro dosing by the end of this season. And frankly, I'm excited to see it. One can only hope. Speaking of control substances, Natalie has a drinking problem. Apparently. A drinking problem. I wonder where she got that?

We were wondering, like, the open container that she was. she was carrying around in the first episode when she, like, walked through the neighborhood to find Zach and then through her beverage at the, quote-to-quote podcaster. It was so weird because I was just like who walks around with a beverage like that. But if she was, I don't know if she was already sneaking booze or if this is a recent development. What do you think? I mean, that would have been a time. If you have snuck booze into the house and you need a time to kind of covertly sip on it, I guess while you're going for a walker on the neighborhood and not in your house. Yeah, yeah.

What do you think of this? I mean, I think, look, bringing the booze into the house, bad idea for many different reasons. Yeah. Tom accusing Anna of drinking again, not good. But I would have to think at some point in the season, she does drink again. How dare you?

I'm not saying, I don't want it. A woman in recovery. You know what, fair boy. Turn about. The way that Zach, I mean, Zach, absolute creep show in this episode, can't wait to talk about that. But the way that, like, Zach,

says like started early this morning. You know, like it makes it seem to me that this has been an ongoing thing with Natalie. This isn't like a new, you know, we saw her drink at the party. But like this is the first time we really seen her sort of like, you know, pour a flask of booze

into a container at home. But it seems like this isn't maybe a new habit for her. The line from Zach especially, that's the damning kind of, this is a habit. This is a recurring thing. Needs to happen under certain circumstances, given what the parents do

and don't want in the house. But it's not. Not good for anybody involved. Okay. We're not parents. No. But let's put out this thought experiment. Say you come home.

Let's say he's not even your child. Any person you care. Why am I coming home to someone else's kids? Just a person is in your home that you care about. Okay. Anyone. All right. Anyone you like care any little bit about.

And they're standing in front of the fridge and they're staring blankly into the fridge. And the entire kitchen is trashed. I mean, first of all, Rob, you're like, what the fuck did you do my kitchen? That's my first question. Also, you're running the electricity bill up by leaving the, you know, why are we cool in the indoors sort of like moment. Actually, my first question is this island is beautiful. When did I get it?

The matching glass Tupperware that they have, which is great and beautiful, was definitely in the maggot tomb. Like, Nevea's definitely been taking some leftovers. That was her mom's. That was Faith's Tupperware. Really? Yeah. When she's raiding her own mom's fridge, she's grabbing a bunch of Tupperware out of it. Well, that's some really nice Tupperware.

Like, glass Tupperware is like on a different level, I think. You got to preserve your stuff. Okay. You need that real seal on it. It's very important. Okay. I'm so sorry. Anyway, thank you so much for coming correct on that.

You come home, anyone you care about. It doesn't have to be your child. Standing in front of a fridge has trashed your kitchen. And you're like, hey, are you okay? You doing all right? What's going on? And then they like creepily advance on you and are like, I love you, Ma, or I love you, Rob, or whatever.

And then they leave. And you're like, okay, this is a good moment to leave this person alone. Now, I understand that she's like, ah, I'm scared by my son. That makes me realize that Faith is scared by her daughter. I can go and back to her and say like, hey, you're not scared of Max, are you scared of your teens? Because teens are scary. They are scary.

But Zach is just doing weird shit all over the house and nobody is paying enough attention. And the fact that Anna wasn't like absolutely desperately alarmed, she was just kind of slow and curious when she came upon him in the kitchen was so strange to me. It is the speed with which she and Tom move on. Anytime Zach does something weird. Nat, I want to give Nat credit. She, at least, when he's like muttering to himself slash a totem, is like, what's going on here? Like this may, do you still have all your toes, your remaining nine toes? Valid question under the circumstances.

But yeah, there will be a moment of concern. And then they just veer off onto their various side quests with no concern for their kids or their family, which is why I feel, I feel like we are totally justified in saying that they are terrible parents. Terrible parents. Just truly awful parents. Like, absolutely terrible. again, you know, I understand that he's having a tough day. But for Tom to like, and, you know, he's with his lawyer pal at the club.

Right. Getting advice on what to do about Lexi or whatever. But like continuing the night to drink with Max, a bad idea for like 900 reasons. And that's why Tom's on the top of my like. Never go with Max Katie to a second location. He was like, I wrote the exact same thing. Damn. But like, he's doing all of that.

And Zach's at home doing God. knows fucking what? What are we doing? What are we doing here? You were just like distraught over taking your kid to the art show in which he got dressed down by another adult for the time that he allegedly may be kind of sort of somebody definitely did leak this other girl's news. And you're like time for a bender.

I mean, he is distracted. You know what? The murderess is correct about that. Anna also clearly distracted. The murderress, alleged murderess. I just think they could take even a moment to care about their kids. It was even striking with Natalie when Anna's coming clean with Natalie about Navaya being like, I appreciate on the one hand, she brought the receipts.

It's like, here's the ID, right? Here's some proof that this girl is not who she says she is. Here's most of what I know, not all of what I know, because it's TV. What can you do? Don't tell Zach. Don't tell Zach. That part, I could see a parent doing that. Is it when Natalie's like, right, because she couldn't possibly love me?

And Anna's like, I'm going to let that go unremarked upon. No acknowledgement whatsoever. Honey, of course someone would love you. You're so lovable. You're wonderful. Just not this psycho. Let's find you another nice girl. A second for reassurance.

Horrible. Just like completely unremarked upon. Yes. I'm really bad. So you know what? I'm going to exonerate all of Nat's sex tupel texting desperately later in this episode. Maybe, but like not only does, like because not only does she learn all of this stuff from

her mom, but like Zach knows. Like she doesn't tell Zach, but Zach. Zach already knows, which means that Nevea told him. Maybe. Not only that, but Nevea told him shit that Natalie said to her when they were in bed at Callies, right? I'm not sure if I can love him. Yes, it was the specific thing that she said to Nevea.

That Nevea, I mean, we understand why Nevea would weaponize that on Zach. Your sister's not even sure if she can love you. But the fact that he knows that, why would Nat still want to talk to the person who spilled that to Zach? Sorry, this is a tangled web. It is a very tangled web. But let's, I mean, we're here with Zach. Can we jump straight into his stuff?

Is that okay? we're already here standing slack jawed in front of the fridge my proposal to you yeah is that what we see I mean agree or disagree

what we see in this episode is not really Zach at all but Nevea inhabiting Zach's body I'm being 100% serious right now like he's been possessed so the last thing we saw I think she's straight up possessing him is it him or is it a possum

is the spirit of the posseum inside well I don't know where the possum is at this point We need to confirm the possum's whereabouts, but the last thing we saw last week's episode, hold on, hold on. Joe, you got to walk with me on this. Okay. You're right. Last week's episode, the last thing we see after Nevea has said, oh, you can come see me over text.

Zach shows up. She blows witchdust in his face and says, let's play. That's the end of last week's episode. This week. Is it witch dust its official designation? You know what? I'm not qualified to comment on the names of any drugs anymore. I think we're going to take that away from me.

This week's episode, I think you would agree he's being fucking weird the whole time. Weird energy from the jump. Now, that could be weird energy of, you know, Nevea slash Angel has told me these things that my sister said, that she's been with my sister. This is all weird. I'm being removed from this situation and just kind of commenting on it. And I feel high on my horse as I navigate this episode. I don't think that explains the weird smile. I don't think that explains some of his behavior with Anna.

and I would say for me, the closest thing we're going to get to a witch does smoking gun, this episode opens with Nevea talking to her mom and calling her ma. We've never heard Zach refer to Anna as Ma. And then when he is in his fridge hypnosis mode and snapped out of it, he says, I love you, Ma. Okay.

You want to put possession on the board? I think we simply have to. I don't think I've ever. been out crackpot theory so hard by you, you're welcome. I want to say one thing, too. The subtitle on Nevea's comment to her mom lists it as mom, goodbye mom at the beginning of the episode.

She says ma. I think she definitively says maw. Joe Anders, who's playing Zach Bowden. I think he's wonderful. He's not remarkably human. Like, nothing about his behavior is human. Yes. But it is compelling and unsettling.

and horrifying and also, like, weirdly charming. Like when Anna's like, what's that thing you got? He's like, I don't know. Founded out by the garage. Like, he's just... He's being a real weirdo. Here's my... Yeah.

I'm going to try to meet you where you are. I hope you can't because I have more evidence of this theory. You know, we got more somehow. Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, no, please. Is Nevea in the grades? Is she in the basement?

I don't think she's in the basement. There's that really weird moment. where the camera goes into the grates and we hear like creaking, you know, and then it goes out the grate into, you know, and it could be just like a fun camera move. Could be. But like, I, you know, it could be a possum. Could be a possum.

But she's missing. Where is she? What if she's just in the house? Every time we see Zach, we don't see Nevea, we don't know where she is. I'm just like, I'm just throwing it out here. But I, look, I agree with you. The great. They can't corporeal.

corporeally be the same person. It would explain a lot of different things. But this is also my, this is also my suggestion as to like, does Zach actually know the things he's saying? Because everything he's saying is something that Nevea knows. And even the weird, like, speaking of incest,

like, nuzzle into kind of kiss that he plays off as I smell alcohol in your breath, but there's clearly something fucking weird happening here. Like, perhaps something weird if, like, two people who actually have had sex together, but one of them isn't happening, somebody else's body is bringing a strange energy to the function.

I'm just so excited by this idea that you think there's actual like possession going on on this show. I really kind of do. That's a new level of trash or piece theater. I really kind of do. I think, look, minimum. Thank you, Rob, in your absolute bachelor. I think a minimum hypnosis.

Oh, yeah. So. Well, drug-induced hypnosis is very plausible to me for some reason. Possession, absolutely not. Another thing we should say We've been like sort of I would say tiptoeing around this The way that like

Santoria is being used in this show The fact that faith is like His own kooky religion that he's made up He made it up So like perhaps he took the teachings of Santeria and is like And this is something a suggestion we made Perverted it into his own thing

His own like Cadyism or whatever And so Kadyanity, I don't know. Well, we can work. I like Kedianity. But that sort of gives a show cover on like, is this what we would do if we were responsibly practicing Santeria? No.

That was Apple legal on the phone. Maybe not. Maybe not. So Max just made up his own shit. Yes. Rooted in perhaps the Santeria practice. I mean, look, there's a lot of strange stuff going on with the maggot den, with all the bones, with the candles, with the toe jar.

I'm like, and I'll say this too about the general food situation when Zach is sort of like scooby doing his way through the boat and fridge and whatnot. Also kind of mirrors what Nevea is doing in this episode. And so I think at minimum, whatever kind of communing is happening, I wonder if it makes you like ravenously hungry. It's like all of a sudden you are, you just like cannot be satiated for whatever reason. Possession seems like it would take a lot of energy. That's what I'm saying. You need to carve a load before you do it. You really do have to load up.

Yeah, absolutely. Or else, what else do you want to talk about? On the fridge front, the light, because we see Zach kind of staring into the fridge light as it beeps and beeps and beeps. I was wondering if it had any connection to two Max Katie things. One, we see him when he's having his, like, club interview with Tabitha, the journalist.

When we're introduced to that scene, he gets kind of like a reflection from a swimming pool kind of teal light as he's, like, staring into space. He do like saying colors. Me too. We just name them. Me too. Don't know what's going on with that.

But there's a weird light thing that it's happening with Max all season where it's like kind of what activates his trauma for some reason. Maybe that's because of the injuries he's sustained in prison. Maybe there's some deeper thing with whatever. Oh, that sort of like wincing. Exactly. Yeah. High whining sounds or thing. So I think we're just getting like so many light based cues.

And I'm like, what is it about the fridge that Zach is like transfixed on in this moment? Like what is it that has him like pulling in that direction? And I really don't know. but there's just like a lot of stuff happening. But you can't wait to find out. A couple other pieces of information we have. This sort of like Cape Fear River imagery of the giant cross by the river that we saw in the flashback. Yeah.

Returns again in postcard form, right? A postcard to Nevea where it's like, someday I will take you there. Is that a threat? I think it's a promise. You think it's a threat? It's both. Anyway, it's just a reminder of that location. And I have to imagine the show's going to take us there at one point to that cross on the bank

of the Cape Fair River. Gotta be. Yeah. This is where I'm curious how the show deals with faith in more familiar contexts. Like all of the Christian imagery that we have.

Traumatic. There's a lot of trauma associated with it. Certainly doesn't go well for the character of faith in this episode, but like this giant standing cross, like what does it represent? What is its kind of looming nature?

Yeah. I can't wait to get at the bottom of that. Can I call out a close caption moment? Please. So when Max has taken Tom to a secondary location. Don't do it. Don't go. Close caption, tense, sensual music.

Pretty good. Pretty good. It's going on the board. Let's talk about Ollie. So Ollie, which is Ethan Ebree's character. We have a name for him. Shows up at the bar. Cannot be a coincidence.

The bar that Max has taken them to. So do you believe that, even though Max sort of like introduces himself to them. Do you believe that Max is the one who sent Ollie and Trish to the pool in the first place? I think maybe so, but maybe through an intermediary of some way. Because they don't seem like they recognize him, right? I don't think they recognize him. Sorry.

Yeah. But too dumb to play along with this charade if they do indeed recognize him. They feel like part of Max's manipulation, but like unwitting victims of it in a sense, right? Like he's the one hitting on Trish and kind of like provoking Ali in the process. he's the one who headbutts Ollie and then backs out of camera frame to just like let Agro Tom jump into the fray. Perfectly executed. Really so. Yeah.

And so yeah, I think he has a sense that they might be at this bar perhaps, like that they are pieces that can be moved around the board. But I don't think they really know who he is at all. That's what I'm saying. It's like I was rewatching their faces to try to see if there was any sort of familiarity there. And it really did seem like they didn't know who he was. But he could still be involved in the whole third integer media. As you say, maybe he used Nevea, maybe. to vea possessed someone in order to make it happen.

Maybe they had Tom's fake voice leaving a message somewhere or sending them a text. Right, they're going to dropping by the pool. To soak your feet. Okay, listen. I really do think Tom is like our chief candidate in Too Dumb to Live. But also inside this episode. Anna does go to the scene of a crime. This is the only nominee.

And handles the murder. weapon. Listen, I'm not a fancy Savannah lawyer. Yeah. But I have watched a TV show or movie. And here's what I know. You don't pick up the knife and or little cowrie shell statue thing and handle the murder weapon.

Why would you do that? To all of the murderesses out there alleged or otherwise. Yeah. To all the murderresses you've known before. Don't put your hands in the blood-soaked instruments of death. And then don't get the victim's blood. Not your victim, but somebody else is on your close. Clothing.

Yeah. On your phone. And then think about calling the cops, but don't. Every move bad. Every move bad for Manna. Going there, bad. Yeah. Lingering bad.

Yeah. Touching the evidence much worse. Yeah. Don't do it. All bad. I mean, given your Nevea's possessing exact theory. Don't laugh. Perhaps the answer is, right, seriously, perhaps the answer is both of them.

But who did this murder? Was it Nevea or was it? it Zach or was it Nevea in Zach's body or was it the witch possum? I don't think it was the witch possum. Which possum innocent. Okay.

I mean, I think it's Nevea in some form. I'm going to say that. I don't know which one, but I think it was Nevea. I also think it was Nevea. Yeah. But like, do you think that Anna thinks it might have been Zach? I don't. I think Anna is putting the pieces together that like they're being

framed. And maybe it is staged to look like Zach did it. Right now. There's, like, evident. It was the last person. I mean, Anna was the last person handling that thing. She put it in a recycling bin. I think it was just the garbage. It's a blue bin, was it not?

Anyway, I don't know what the color of the bins are in Georgia, Savannah. Shells don't recycle, you know? I wouldn't put it in recycling. I'm saying, Anna, get it together. Okay. Although, let's be real. Savannah, Georgia, that shit's going and just the dump anyway. I mean, let's be real about what's happening at a recycling facilities.

We got a really nice care package from someone in Savannah, Georgia. Why are you smirching? I want to be real. That's happening in most American cities. That's true. That is a fact. That I actually only learned last year. It's tough.

It was a real like, what do you mean? Yeah. The recycling is a lie. We're doing all that work for nothing. It's kind of a lie. Three, four bins? Come on. A lot of washing out of containers and carefully analyzing what number is allowed to go in there.

My friend made fun of me because she's like, that all goes to the dump. That's just so we can sleep at night. I still don't. All right. Well, in light of perception being as important, if not more important than reality, do we want to run through just like some of the, what's out there now as a result of this week's episode. We have security footage of Tom absolutely beating the shit out of Ethan Embry.

National treasure Ethan Embry. Yes, which that doesn't play well. No. I wouldn't be surprised if there's now some footage of Anna in a bloodstained shirt running out of that house. So did you interpret that Anna was being led to Faith's house to begin with? Oh. As part of Nevae's scheme. No, but I think it's like a sort of crime of opportunity.

Because Nevea did call in her own missing persons. Yeah, but she was trying to frame Anna for her for being missing. I don't know that she was necessarily... I don't want to give... In terms of like Max and Nevea and what they're ever able to orchestrate, I think you can be both smart and ten steps ahead of these dumb bodons, but also you have to be nimble and like sort of be able to like pivot where you can. So it's like Max approaches Tom, gets in from...

from Tom, it's Tom who's like, hey, someone at work is sort of like pulling some shit on me, you know, like he hands all of the information over to Max. And Max does something with it. Yes, but Max already knew, right? Like, Max shows up just as Tom is telling his colleague about Lexi and what he should do and is there to conveniently talk about like, oh, this is a sore spot for me, alleged murderer when you're wrongly accused. Like, I think there's a level of bugging happening at the Bowden House for sure, maybe even their phones. I don't know where all the recording devices are, but... How vulnerable are we, Apple? I mean, right? Yeah. But there are so many coincidences. I agree with you about the opportunity. Like, there's times where, whether it's Max or Nevaea or whoever, however many people are involved in all this, are picking up the ball and running with it, given what's...

Like, Nevaea didn't plan to get hit by a car, I don't think. That was just like, this happened. Let's play it. But... And then she sprung up like a mountain goat. She certainly did. There are just so many times where Max shows up at the exact right time with the exact right line of commentary or request to needle or to provoke or something that I feel like the Bodens are definitely

being recorded. Oh, I really agree. I just don't know that I think Nevea is like, I know, I'll report myself missing, and then Anna will be at the police station the exact same time. My mom will be there, and then they'll meet and they'll have a couple of interactions, and then I will bash my mother's head in, and Anna will show up and put her dumb, dumb lawyer hands on the murder weapon, and then we'll have footage of her smeared in blood leaving the house. But if that's true, why did she or somebody else kill her mom. Nevea seems ready to kill anyone at any time. Does she not?

She doesn't seem great. She wanted to go gremlin mode on like Callie's dad who she doesn't even know. So like her mom who she already like hates. Has a very strained relationship with. Yeah, exactly. At least from her perspective. Yeah. I mean, we should note that Faith does feel very strongly that Max has like contorted or

manipulated Nevea into whatever form she is in now. Changed her. Yes. We don't know what the before was like for Nevea either, you know, before her dosages changed. Do you think Max possessed Nevea from prison? Maybe taught her how to do it. Okay. You can't really long distance.

That's the thing. You got to, you need proximity. This isn't like, maybe a toe. This isn't a Last Jedi situation. Like, the projection has its limits. I think I broke you. Joe, I need you to prepare for the fact that she is 100% possessing. That's just the thing that's happening on this show.

All right. All right. We should mention before we go that. Ray and Anna share a scene in the car surrounded by a lot of bearded moss. We did get emails from some Savannah folks who said they only shot for a little bit in Savannah that I guess they took a bunch of bearded moss with them to Atlanta and like strewn it about the place, like just flung it into trees or whatever. That's authenticity.

And so when Anna and Ray are like parked in the rain on a street and there's the trees over there there's just like a bunch of moss dangling. Like that was probably placed there for that real authentic Savannah feel. I thought Atlanta as Savannah looked beautiful. Gorgeous. You could like almost chew the air there. But yeah, Ray and Anna have this conversation where he's like, leave it alone.

He said that even after Max Kitty walked up to him and said, hey, nice car, nice ride, I'm jealous. As he should. The advice is not this guy's innocent. It's like, you need to stay out of this. Like, real consequences are falling on your head right now because you're acting out of pocket. Like the perception as Tom lays out as literally everyone lays out in this episode is what matters. What does it look like?

And then Anna, who has always reminded me of Thanos, is like, fine. I'll do it myself, you know? It's really the only way she knows how to do it. But to me, this was so much about like, yeah, she's going to basically the last person she has left to go to that she could confide in with this stuff. and it's like, Tom doesn't believe her at this stage. Natalie hates her guts. Zach hates her guts. No, I love you, Ma.

Well, that doesn't even happen yet. She doesn't have that affirmation. Like, you know, clearly she's going through with the vase. She didn't get to finish Babe Pig in the City. And now Ray's like, you know what? You also need to stay the fuck out of this. Which do you prefer Babe or Babe Pig in the City? I feel like I actually liked Babe Pig in the City better.

Well, that's a very you take. I don't know how to take that, but I'm sure there are many of us. So the Bodens are isolated and disparate in this episode. One of them might be possessed. The other is, you know, but both the Bowden parents are out of a job or at least on suspension. Do you feel like they're united again as a family unit when they're standing altogether on the porch regarding Max walk into the house across the street from them? Maybe more than they've ever been sans Zach. Zach's just there.

I don't know what's going on with Zach. I mean, clearly I don't even know. Zach is actually Nevea. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Who knows what's going on with him. So Nevea and Natalie.

Do you want to give them, like, is it like Zach Vea or like? Oh, a couple name? Yeah. I think we're going to have to stew on that. We should come up with a good couple name for them. Okay. I mean, but if they're like two souls in one body. Well, yeah, they're intertwined.

Okay, great. Hopefully Tom and Anna can get on the same page now. Well, he does finally believe her. He's like, I was wrong. Also, we're leaving the episode when she's like, we need to talk to Natalie. He's like, you need to talk to Natalie. I'm like, this is how we got here, guys. We're not a unit.

at all. I actually think that one was fair. Was it? From Tom's perspective, your wife just shoved a teenager in front of a moving car. Who happens to be dating your daughter, kind of, or at least she wants to date her. The fair old teenager bit her on the hand. But that's not on the video. I'm pro-shove, honestly. It's what it looks like.

In the moment, knowing what we know, if someone bites your hand, you get to shove them. I think that's a fair trade. Absolutely. Tom doesn't have all that evidence. It's in the Ten Commandments. It really is. And I, for an eye, a shove for a bite. Yeah, absolutely. All right, anything else

you want to talk about? Let's go to the board. Let's go to the board. We're going to wrap up this completely normal podcast with a completely normal thing to do on a podcast, which we are going to unveil

which cards we will be adding to, what are we calling this? We go back and forth. I mean, it is a conspiracy board of a kind. The Cape Fear conspiracy board. Yeah. Rob would you like to go first? I would love to.

With the most important revelation of this week's episode, we're talking possession. Definite absolute possession. We are so sure of it. There's nine question marks there. That is part of the text. of the show.

A new character card, Detective Grayson. We're adding him to the board. Do you think he survives the season? No. So long, Detective Grayson. Yeah, absolutely not. Another new character introduced this week.

Yeah. The Gator Bong. The Gator Bong. We've decided it is a gator. We consulted the tape. It is definitely a Gator. We checked it. I mean, maybe some dragons look like that. I don't know.

Speaking of Nevea in movie theaters, Fish-based crimes. There are multiple. Adding to the board. Chekhov's heating vent. Yes. There's creeks. There's groans and moans coming from there.

I'm a little worried. Could be all kind of surveillance. I mean, maybe there is a tunnel underneath the boating house. A drone in the heating vent? I think you'd hear that. The echo for the flying drone in the vent. Although, maybe we'll connect them. We'll put them close enough where they could be connected.

The right dosage. Question mark. We're not sure. We're really not. The other thing we're not sure about Joe. Spit stuff. You know what you did. I'm pretty anti-spit stuff.

Are you? I got to say. Of this variety. I mean, honestly, if you're into this in the form of this show, email us at think of a baby carrot at gmail.com.

I'm honestly curious. Okay, Rob. You know what? I'm going to follow that up with tense sensual music. If you want to put some tense sensual music on and then email Rob Mahoney

about spit stuff, you can go ahead and do that. See, now you made it weird. You made it weird by saying email us about spit stuff. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. Okay. That must be somebody.

thing. You know what my thing is? Entropy. Tom and I unfortunately do have this in common. You really do. I was thinking about you a lot. I feel like you might also share some of this, though. Okay. It's an us problem. And how do we deal with it? Drinking problem? Natalie's drinking problem, our drinking problem. See, I'm still not convinced that Natalie has one.

Okay. A sip here and there? We'll see. Standard teenage behavior as far as I've been led to believe. Speaking of belief, faith. These segues are out of control. Just rest of peace. We barely knew you.

But hopefully we will learn more about faith or Nevea's upbringing in some form or fashion. I think not the last, but one of the last characters we're outing to the board is the alleged murderess, Tatham Buckley, my new favorite character. Thank you for covering us legally. You're welcome. I really appreciate that. We went back and forth on what to call this. We're calling it the Cowrie murder weapon. Yeah.

The totem, busthead statue. Yeah. Whatever it was that was used to X faith. Not recyclable. Not recyclable. Don't put it in that bin. All right. Freeze frame Mahoney.

The lawyer's secret, the movie poster that we had, I think this applies to Tom, to Anna, to a number of people. I didn't even ask. Have you seen The Lawyer's Secret? Is it a real movie? I would assume? I don't know that those are real movies. Oh, wow.

I think we need to get at the bottom of that. We might have to have a viewing party. Okay. The AI voice slop, voicemails, voice notes. Can't keep brushing up against me. and me. That should have been the tell. Who would say such a thing?

The cigar locker. Yeah. I'm deeply disappointed it doesn't have a cooler name. I'm glad it exists, though. I'm also glad that Romeo, aka Romeo the dog. Romeo the dog does exist. He will be menacing someone. Will it be peanut butter?

Will it be the kids themselves? Protect peanut butter. I just think if this dog shows up in a non-walking daytime situation, bad things are happening. Okay. Last one at least, it's just a card or replacing another card with

Microdocin. Or macrodocin on this show. It's the more accurate representation of what's happened. And apparently LSD. So, tune in to find out. Thank you to Kai Grady.

Who else were you thinking? Deverey. Jacob Cornett. Of course. And LSD, I guess. Yeah. And animal skulls that I swear it better not be the possum.

Thank you, Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Joe. See you. Bye.