The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Cape Fear’ Series Premiere Recap: A New Terror

Episode Date: June 5, 2026

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney use a complex string of emoji to recap the two-episode premiere of 'Cape Fear,' an Apple TV crime thriller starring Amy Adams and Javier Bardem. (0:00) Intro (4:24) Source Material (11:40) Should This Be a TV Show? (25:44) Max Cady (29:26) Anna Bowden (33:56) Tom Bowden (36:18) Zack Bowden (43:14) Natalie Bowden (47:50) Loose Ends Email us! [e-mail] Follow us on IG and TikTok! Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady, Devon Renaldo, and Cameron Dinwiddie Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles and Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast, I'm DeWiter Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here to talk about Cape Fear. Spooky. The first two episodes of Cape Fear did a double premiere drop. So if you miss that and only watch the first episode, we're going to be talking about both episodes.

You might want to go watch them and then come back and listen to us, talk about it. I would advise it. Rob Mahoney, big picture. Did you like these episodes of television? You know, I did. I am intrigued. Okay. Tell me.

I think, look, on a line. by line level. Sometimes it can be a little blunt. Sometimes the dialogue can be a little on the nose. I think it gets the most important Cape Fear thing, right, which is like the bone-chilling unsettledness of this kind of story. I'm unsettled. I'm sufficiently unsettled. Okay. So the source material that we're working with here is there's a 1957 novel by John McDonald called The Executioners, which I have procured but not cracked yet. I did rewatch the 1962 film with Gregory Peck and Robert Mitchum. And I did rewatch the 1999. A 1991 film from Martin Scorsese with Robert De Niro, if you heard of him.

Nick Nolte, Jessica Lang, Juliette, Louis, both Juliette Lewis and Robert DeNiro got Oscar nominations for that. Both phenomenal in it. Extraordinary. And then, of course, the 1993 episodes of The Simpsons, Kate Fair. Well, we should, we should know. The first three are all credited as being the basis for this show. Right. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Like, based on this novel and these two movies? But if Nick Ntoska, who's the showrunner of this version, I think if he's being honest with himself, he should credit The Simpsons as well. Because that is a phenomenal episode of The Simpsons. Let's add it to the list. I think it was my first exposure to the story of Cape Fear. Cape Fear was that episode of The Simpsons with Siteshow Bob. Amazing. Stocking. Have you seen it?

I have seen it. It's been a minute. I'm going to be honest with you. I think it's maybe my favorite episode of The Simpsons. He sings Gilbert and Sullivan. He steps on a bunch of rakes. Wow, it really is hitting all of your touchdown. All right. So this is what, so the question is why. Why do we need a 10 episode show based on a book and two movies and perhaps an episode of The Simpsons that were already quite well regarded and phenomenal? Do we need to tell this story again? And I think it is interesting to track this 1950s novel, this 1960s movie, this 1990s movie, and the way in which the story is slightly mutated over those many adaptations. to reflect, and this is what Nick Antoska has said in several interviews, sort of to reflect the anxieties of the era. Every era gets its own Cape Fear. And what does it say about the decade that it is sort of exploring?

And, you know, Martin Scorsese talked about that as well, where he was just sort of like, I am remaking a movie that I regard very highly. It's sort of a kind of a B movie. And his version, his Cape Fear, is not really like any other Martin Scorsese movie. It's what years ago, my pal David Ehrlich, in regard to the film Gone Girl, I don't know if he coined this phrase, but the phrase he used was trashier piece. Like something that is like great, but also schlocky at the same time. And like Martin Scorsese's Cape Fear is a absolute stone. cold trash piece. And all three movies are, the two movies and the TV show are using the exact same

score. So they're like, bum, bum, bum, like that is the key to score. Still hits. And then this show right away when we get the sort of photo negative imagery that opens episode one of this show, you know, or the pool is colored red instead of blue, that's a direct visual connection to the score saysie film. Also, we get the shot in episode two of Max's eyes through the slats of the closet. That's like basically ripped from the poster.

Absolutely. So do you want to talk about sort of what our plan is to talk about this really well-known story, Cape Fear, in a way that people are watching the show and maybe haven't seen any of these movies or read the book or watched that Simpsons episode? Like, you know, what is a spoiler inside of this content? I genuinely don't know. That wasn't a conversation I was experiencing. I was expecting to have about Cape Fear based on the idea of it.

If you're not familiar with the movies, I would not describe them as particularly twisty. It's a somewhat straightforward story. Right. But within this adaptation, I think we're introducing all sorts of uncertainty as far as what actually happened with the inciting incident,

which I believe in both movies and the novel, it's a rape that Max Katie has committed. And specifically, I think, in some adaptations of an underage girl, that's been now changed to his wife, his pregnant wife, has been murdered. presumably by him, but then also exonerated and released from prison. So there's some uncertainty around what happened.

There's some uncertainty around the actual trial that led him and the plea bargain that apparently sent him to prison in the first place. And I got to say, maybe he has a point as far as being a little bit mad that the prosecutor and his defense attorney ended up married. I'm not saying he's a great guy, but I too would be a little fuss. Rob Mahoney, Max Cady, had some good points. Not saying that. Max Kitty is one of the most iconic, like, on-screen psychopaths.

Yes. You know, played incredibly by both Robert Mitchum and Robert De Niro. And to get Javier Bardem, who has already played one of our most iconic on-screen psychopaths. Several, I would say. What's your list? I mean, I think Skyfall might be included, too. You're, okay. Not quite as iconic as...

As sugar. No. But, like, I do think this version, in its deviation, from the De Niro one especially, which is like a functionally illiterate man who is like malicious and evil. And this version is more verbal in the way that Javier Bardem characters

tend to be. That's interesting because like Anton Shiger is pretty nonverbal, right? That's true. I guess he goes both ways. So here's what's interesting. We're not going to talk about sort of like the ending of Cape Fear, I guess, is what we're going to stay away from.

And for the record, we don't know the ending of this series. Right. And we talked about this a lot with presumed innocent, where Rob didn't know the story presumed innocent. I did. We were so careful about that. And then that version of that story was completely different at the end. So how far off the map are they going to go with this version? There's already so many differences. But I do want to talk about this core difference across all the adaptations, which is as we go forward in time and as our world gets more complex, perhaps, this blurring of the lines, morality lines. you know, is increases. So in the, in the 1962 film, we have cast Gregory Peck as Sam Bowden,

the attorney, Atticus Finch himself, like just the most upstanding citizen possible. And it is Sam Bowden, family man, and his lovely family. And what happens when this elemental evil as represented by Robert Mitchum comes to town and destroys your family? I just recorded an episode of the reward.

Watchables that's part of this From Hell month that Bill is doing. And this is sort of his overreaching concept of From Hell, which is like this element has entered your home and is here to destroy it. And is distinctly uncomplicated in some ways. It's like a knight of the hunter style. Yes. This is evil incarnate. This is why you get Robert Mintam to do this, right?

Okay. So in 91, Scor says he's like, let's complicate it a little bit. Okay. So in his version, Nick Nolte's character of Sam Bowden has buried some evidence in the case. He believes Max Katie did the crime. We believe Max Katie did the crime. We believe that ultimately justice was served and sending Max Katie to prison. Right.

But is De Niro's version of that character right when he's like, hey, did you bury some evidence in my case attorney? So who's saying Max Katie has some points now? I'm saying. Spurs says he was like, wouldn't it be interesting if Max Katie, studied the law. And he is actually the one who's like, here's the letter of the law. And Nick Nolte's

attorney character is like, I'm bending the law slightly to serve this greater idea of justice. Also, Nick Nolte's character in that version of the film is a philanderer. You know what I mean? Like, has these various flaws. He is not a Gregory Peck type. He is

like a, you know, he's a husband and a dad, but they had to leave town because he fucked too many women. And like, you know, he's got a relationship of a sort of with Ileana Douglas and all this sort of stuff going on. So that's the slightly different thing. Now we get to this version of Cape Fear, where, as you pointed out, Max Katie is not released because he served a sentence. He's released because he is exonerated.

There is some question. I don't have any questions about this, but the TV show is asking some questions about whether or not Max Katie actually did the crime. Right. I think he did. I think there's evidence inside of these episodes that he did. I suspect he did. But I think the thing that plays, whether you're talking about the 50s or the 60s or the 90s or today, even, you know, you're updating, you're modernizing, you're changing the framing. But that, like, core idea of the plausible deniability.

Sure. Of, like, I'm just around. I just happen to be in the neighborhood. I'm just like, I'm an innocent bystander. I have this airtight alibi and it turns the core attorney characters into this, like, position of, what if I can see the thing that no one else can see? Right. And no one believes me.

And the law, there's a limit to what the law can do for me. Absolutely. And so what do I do when the structures that I believe in fail me? And that's what's so fun about De Niro's Max Cady, especially, is because he has studied the law. He's like, oh, I'm not on your property. Yeah. Oh, I'm, you know, like he's using the law to get away with all the shit that he gets away with, right? Okay.

So in this version, we have no Sam Bowden. It's Anna and Tom Bowden, two attorneys. And as you alluded to, she was his defense attorney. He was a prosecutor. It's messed up. It's bad. It is fucked up. Very bad.

So we've got, you know, I was talking to you a bit about this last week where I was wondering if, because I could tell that they had made Amy Adams into sort of like she was the defense attorney, which is the role that these other Sam Bowdoins have played. But I was like, so is Patrick Wilson just going to be the like the Jessica Lang interior designer husband or whatever it is? She's an artist. I don't know, whatever it is she does. No, they're both attorneys. So they sort of split the role across these two characters.

Patrick Wilson and Amy Adams are here. But they have this like, you know, they look around. Do you ever think we don't deserve this? They have this like picture perfect home. They've got a fucked up kid or two. They've got a lot of, they've got so many secrets. I mean, it's almost like the glitching picture frame is a metaphor for the mirage of their suburban existence. What is the metaphor?

What is the storm a metaphor? Clunky writing, unfortunately. That one was tough. Okay, so we've got lawyers who have, you know, at least had like fucked each other during the case, probably got married afterwards. What was the deal? They say this very ominous thing in episode two that their daughter overhears, which is like, we had to do the thing that we did. What was it?

We don't know yet because there are so many mysterious questions. and we're going to run down all of the open questions because they have stretched, you know, Nican Toska has decided to stretch this story from a two-hour cinema masterpiece, trashdrepiece, into a 10-episode television series. And this is the thing I'm most worried about it. Honestly, Javier Bardem sounded a little bit worried about it

because in an interview with Entertainment Weekly, they're like, what's the thing you were sort of like most anxious about? He was like, people getting bored. Yeah. This is 10 episodes with Max Katie. It's not a two-hour jaunt around, you know, the South with Max Katie. You are spending 10 hours with him. So how can I add shading and nuance and whatever to him?

Is he still this sort of elemental evil character that Robert Mitchum and Robert De Niro have played? Yes. Yes. But like, does he have, you know, the De Niro version has a charm to him? Certainly. But this version is even smoother. And even in terms of like who he is seducing and who he is fooling, it's a much wider swath. I really loved the scene in episode two when he's touring the house and he's talking to the real estate, the realtor, whoever he's talking to.

Well, he knows how to wear a linen suit. That's for sure. Absolutely. But he's like, and that's the thing is like unlike, well, I would say Mitchum's Max Katie blends. But unlike De Niro, he blends, right? De Niro's wearing like loud shirts and has like a bikini girl lighter and is as like crass as crass can be. And this is not the smoothie Max Katie that we're getting here. But the way that he's like goes off on his rant about whatever.

And he's like, oh, but that's not the world you live in, my dear. Like I will get you the information you want. And it's just sort of like he's unsettling. But like you understand why these various characters, perhaps most frustratingly CCH Pounder's character. are taken in and sort of enamored by him. I think this is the smartest of the adaptive choices we've seen so far. Some of it, we're going to see how it pays off, like where it goes, what the secrets are within, you know, the two lawyers and their marriage and all that. The choice to kind of cloak Max Katie in the fight for social justice, I think, is a really smart decision.

And just the idea of like, what does it mean when someone is released from prison in 2026 because they were seemingly wrongfully in prison? And like, how do people treat him? What does he get pulled into? And I think structurally, if you're trying to make a TV show, you need ways that he and Anna can be in the same spaces. Yes. Logically. Right. Without her wanting to call the police at all times.

And so him becoming like whether by accident or by crook, like almost the face of her organization, I think it's just like a really smart way to integrate this really menacing element into her world. And I think to start with in episode one at the gala when she is talking about the flaws inside the justice system. So she's already starting from a place. of the justice, like my whole life's work is to talk about how flawed the justice system is. And so, but where does the rubber meet the road in terms of those values when it comes to someone like Max Katie? And she's like, no, but I know that he is, you know, evil. I know this to be true. And that's different from your Gregory Pex, who's like, I believe in the law. I believe in law and order. And when like various people are like, we could do this shady thing. He's like, no, we have to go by the letter of the law. In episode one. One, we meet this sort of investigator character who works for Anna's organization is played by the wires, Jamie Hector, Ray Rollins. And she introduces him, she's like, here's Ray Rollins. He does what the cops can or won't do. You know, we already work outside the law.

That's what we do. I think all of that is interesting. I do. And even like when the two interns meet, at that point, they're introducing, I believe his name's Byron, the other guy who they've recently helped get released from prison, who ends up mysteriously killed or dead. Seriously? Well, I mean, there were gunshots, there was fighting. I think we have an inkling as to what goes on. But again, plausible deniability all around.

He has an airtight out of that. But the two interns who come to meet him are like, oh, talking about his lived experience and like the broken system. It's like all of this language that we use today to try to understand those broken systems is like being weaponized against presumably Anna and Tom as they try to protect their family and understand what kind of risk they're really in. I think another needle here is when Ted Levine as Anna's father shows up and Brandon Devereaux. Oh, by the way, we're in Savannah.

Got to be Devereaux's involved. And Toussaint. That's CCH founders is Noah Toussaint. So you've got Touss and Devereaux's. Like, we're living. We're thriving. Where was Blanche Devereaux from? Was she from Savannah?

She's from Georgia. Yeah. Got to be. We have to do some deeper Golden Girls research, trying to tie the narrative. Oh my God, is one of these characters, Big Daddy? Great question. But I think that I think having her father show up and call Tom and Anna Country Club liberals is another sort of brick in the building we're creating here. Also, in terms of the anxieties that Nick Antoska is like, okay, what are the specific anxieties of the 1960s of the 1990s and the nows?

And what he's clearly latched on to for better or for worse is. is this tech anxiety right now. So, you know, are there predators in your schools is a 1990s question that Martin Scorsese is asking, right? Is someone catfishing your teenage, you know, is a man you sent to prison catfishing your teenage son? Is your security system, has it already been hacked? Yes. You know, all of these tech ways that, you know, the idea that like, De Niro's Max Cady when to prison and studied the law, and it feels like Javier Bardem's Max Kady went to prison

to study tech? I mean, I have many questions. If he is, in fact, responsible for everything we've seen so far, I kind of wonder if the answer might be he is in some things and other ones are coincidental circumstantial. I would say some. The one that is almost the biggest logical jump for me is like, how did this man who's been in prison for 17 years become a very good like world of warcraft player to the point where he would bond with a teenager?

Or do you even have to be if you're smooth talking? Don't you get to play video games in prison? They have Wow in there? They have subscription-based MM-R-P-Gs. I don't know, man. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Maybe prison has really changed. I don't know.

I actually don't know the answer to that. But I feel like you have internet access in prison. Maybe that's all it takes. Great questions. Do you want to do a mini-Nepo baby check-in for this show? I think we simply have to for every show now. Okay. Joe Anders, who plays Zach Bowden, their son.

That is the son of Kate Winslet and... Wow. Yeah. So, and San Mendez. Okay. Yeah. So that's one. That's one.

And then Anna Bershenikoff, who plays the reporter, who is integral in the first two episodes, Tabitha, is Michaela Bershnecoff's daughter. Let's talk about this reporter for a second. Okay. If I were reporting a story, as I often have, and the person I was interviewing wound up with a family of dead skunks in their pool, that's the lead. Like, that is making... making the story. There's no like, this was off the record.

That's the header photo. Come on, the dead skunks? Yeah. You got a cameraman there? This is a dream assignment all of a sudden. Absolutely. Especially now that all this evidence is coming out, like this man's released from prison,

you're just sitting on the dead skunk lead. I do really appreciate that Anna Bowden is so media trained that she's like so careful. But what's on the record, what's off the record. She's like, you didn't say it. So let's be clear. This is off the record.

Pretty well done by her. This was not in the brief. We said we were not talking about this. Fair play. And she was like, She's like, I'm sure you didn't see it. Yeah. I'm sure you did, bitch.

Again, plausible deniability all around. So, yeah, how does that tech anxiety play for you? It's a little of both. I will say of all the characters we've had so far, Zach feels the shakiest as far as like his place within the story. I think the part of it that is the online gaming catfishing, that part I'm all along the right for. The idea that he has leaked these like presumably nudes of this girl to his group chat,

That feels like something a show like this could explore and get into. It's treatment we can dissect. It's the like TikTok AI slop version of Max Katie's unborn son that he is now, I believe, hallucinating, walking about. When it was just the AI slop video, I was like, okay, it's just like ghoulish, but honestly, believable. Now that he's become a sentient walking hallucination, I don't know. So that leads into something else I want to talk about for sure. But I will say I watched episode one, then I watched episode two, like much later, and I had forgotten about the AI Slop part. So when he hallucinated Max Katie's son, I was like, are we doing real ghosts here?

Maybe we are. And then I rewatched episode when I was like, oh, no, he saw the AI Slop version of him. But Adam Katie, what Adam Katie would look like had he lived. Right. I want to talk about, so we've got this tech paranoia, right? What if you're, you know, and Max Katie, the tattoos are interesting to me because, De Niro very consciously made, wanted, you know, and he's talked about this, wanted to make sure all of the tattoos on his body were, you know, specific biblical references. So the iconography and, you know, he's got like passages, long passages on his arms and stuff like that.

With this version of Max Cady, he's got the Grim Reaper, which is same same as De Niro's. Whoever did the ink. But the eyes everywhere. Yeah. And so in terms of this like tech surveillance, like, or is there another spiritual meaning to that? And that brings me into what I want to say, which is like alongside this, this Max Katie tech genius aspect is like Max Katie like voodoo practitioner. Yeah. Okay.

the possum infested den where Zach ingested his own toe at one point or was forced fed his own toe. I mean, maybe the possum was doing the witchcraft. There's like bowls and seeds and and nuts and stuff like that and it's just like it's meant to invoke some sort of like. It could just be an assaie bowl. Absolutely not. You don't think so. It's meant to invoke like witchcraft. Add some yogurt and you got some going. So like is Max Katie in addition to like hacking your security system also casting spells? Is that what's happening? I don't know.

I would say we get two very distinct impressions of him over the course of these episodes. One, particularly with the cold open of episode two, the physical threat of who he is is made very clear, right? This is not a man who you're just going to see looming in the shadows. Like, he fucks up these Nazis who try to jump him. And we love it. Look, we do love to see that part. And honestly, I do think escalating both what we see Max being capable of in terms of.

of his physical strength and ability to hurt someone. But also what the show is willing to show us. Right. Like a Nazi gets his head impaled on a bench press bar. Another one gets a kettlebell to the knee. And then we see Zach like with the, I mean, it's just. We just put Euphoria to bed. And here we are again with just like severed toes and Nazis.

Can we not escape? However, Rob, Nick Antuska, did you look at his credits? Yeah. So he did the act and candy. Like the two big things that he's done is the acting candy, both true crime adaptations for Hulu, I believe. Yes. Well received, whatever.

He was a writer on Hannibal. He was. Most notably for season three, I believe. People are eating toast? Is this not back in your Hannibal pocket? It's not a prime cut. It's not your first choice, I wouldn't think.

If you have a discerning palette. Dr. Lecter would never. That's what you know, that's for like the sausagesing. Think of it as a baby carrot. Okay, I'm glad you brought the baby carrot. We're trying to figure out how we want to cover this show. If it's going to be something we do week to week, we don't really know, email us, comment wherever you're watching this, let us know if this is something

you want to keep up with week to week. Prestige TV at Spotify.com. Regardless, I would like for us to create an email for this show as we return to it. Think of a baby carrot at gmail.com is right there for us. What are your other options from? Babybird the spliff at gmail.com. Possum Witch at gmail.com or possum-based witchcraft at gmell.com. Backyard cougar, fishing for skunks, the system of fuck you, or dipped in handsome? How do you feel about any of those? Dixon was such a good phrase.

Incredibly descriptive of Patrick Wilson in particular. Very, very key. I wrote that down both times I watched the episode. I think it's got to be think of a baby carrot. Let's do a quick double check. Okay. Okay, so through the magic of editing, and perhaps Cameron, who's editing this podcast, can put it down here at the bottom.

Think of a baby carrot at dmail.com is how you can reach us. I'm very happy about it and also was very upset at that line of dialogue. I love a baby character. Do you still? It's the jar for me. Zach, I'm not a fan of. I should say, this is, there is a son character in the book. There has been no son character in the two movies.

There has not. So we're adding back in people. Let's go through character by character. Okay. And talk about all the mysteries and questions we have around these characters. There are so many. Let's start with Max Katie himself. Javier Berdem. Blue contacts. Why? They're very unsettling. I honestly think this is part of it. This character needs to have kind of an uncanny thing to him. And if he's going to be a little

smoother in terms of his working with people, our familiarity with Javier Bardem being turned against us, but like there's just something off looking at him, I honestly think is part of the package. I also wonder if it's meant to match Amy Adams. eyes, which are the way the color grading is working on the show, they're like ultramarine. They're like really popping. And so if, you know, I think the promo image is like their two faces sort of blurring into each other. So if the point is to be like two sides of the same coin, we're not so different.

You and I, like having these matching eyeballs might be part of that too. Speaking of, we got far afield with the baby carrot of all this. The physical presence of Max Cady is part of it. But you asked about like whether he's actually invoking someone. kind of witchcraft or magic or like, what is making him such a good manipulator? I don't know the cause, but like clearly he has established as someone who can get people to do all kinds of things.

Well, his father was a dog trainer. Yep. And so I'm wondering how much of this is like the dog, you know, because we got in the flashback, we see that his father put him in a cage among other things and trained him, you know, so through like behavioral cues or whatever, like in terms of like how did he get Zach to eat his own toe or whatever when he wasn't even there? Like, you know, are there, you know, can he call someone as it seems like he does with his mistress and say certain things and get you do something because he's trained you. He's hypnotic suggestion. Is it, is it some

kind of witchcraft? Is it just like a more conventional kind of humanistic manipulation? I don't know. I don't know, but those bulls are. He's doing stuff. I don't know what it is leading to. When Anna, and we'll get to all of our questions about Anna, when Anna, when Anna saw those bowls. At first I was wondering if she would recognize them from like stuff that Max Katie had done before. But she seemed when she asked her daughter, she's like, do you know what all this shit is? Why aren't they making a bigger deal out of like the witchcraft shit that's in their dead? I don't know. I feel like if somebody, if I found evidence of random hexes in my unfinished room, I'd be a little freaked out. Also, finish that room. It feels like it's like exposed

to the outdoors. Apparently. It's very confusing. The possums just living in there and we're firing contractors left and right. Blue content. text on Javier Brideham. Yep. Dog trainer father. Some weird shit around Christianity and his father as well, obviously. Eyeball tattoos. Facility with tech.

Brain damage. Glitches, sees his dead wife and son. Yeah. And the glitches seem to, I mean, sometimes coincide with like flashes of light or things like that, as all happens for a lot of people with a lot of different conditions. I don't know what the spazzing out is going to ultimately lead to, but it does make it particularly terrifying. when you've seen what he can do.

Yeah. The idea that he would be out of control for even a second. And this is to me what's the most terrifying thing about him with all of this plausible deniability, right? Like you have this revelation in episode two where Amy Adams' character is like connecting the dots between the text from Angel X and like something that Max Cady has said.

Yeah. And it's like if all of these things that she believes are true, then he's like so far ahead. He's laying the seeds in like the conversations and the speeches And it's like... He's like catch up. Completely. It's like it's so terrifying to think that you could be that far behind.

And yet I feel like Javier Burdham kind of sells that sort of intelligence. He's like, Mr. Policeman, I gave you all the clues. Okay. Fingers and toes. It was right there. Anabodin. Got sober at one point. Yeah.

After the trial. That was kind of like a throwaway line. I think very important. Almost like ADR it in, it felt like. Loose cannon. potentially bipolar father has a bad relationship with him. Yes. And here's a seed I'm going to plant.

Again, I have not watched past episode two. I believe she fucked Max Gady. And I think her daughter is his biological daughter. That's what I think. That would be a hellscape of a show. Well, here's my thought. Okay, so one of the creepiest, the creepiest things, I think. well, it's a long list. But Max Cady, in the various versions, creeps around the teenage daughter. This is like his thing. This is why De Niro and Juliet Lewis were nominated for Oscars. By the way, 1991, I saw an interview that Scorsese gave in 92 or 93 perhaps where he was talking about the scene between De Niro and Juliet Lewis in the school in the original where he comes and he's like,

seducing her. Yeah. And he like sticks his finger in her mouth and then he kisses her. Yeah. First of all, so Julia Lewis was 17, playing younger. She's wearing like a retainer. It's very upsetting. She was 17.

De Niro improvised the finger in the mouth thing and he told Scorsese he was going to do it. Scorsese. He was like, great, let's not tell the girl that you're going to do it. Yep. So that like fear and uncertainty you see on Juliet Lewis, that's her being like, Why is Robert De Niro a 50-something-year-old man, 40-something-year-old man sticking his finger on my mouth? Last one at least. Julia Lewis has lived a life, man.

That was the first year the MTV Movie Awards did best kiss, and they nominated that kiss from Cape Fear. Are you kidding me? I'm not kidding you. First of all, what teens out there were like, let's go watch Cape Fear? And even if they did. Everyone watched Cape Fear. I guess that's fair. It's just, oh my God, that is a horrendous.

decision. So I think they're hard swerving away from Max Katie creeps around the teenage daughter in this version. And you think the hardest swerve is what if he is her dad? I think he's her dad. They're not going to do that. And here's all the swerves they're doing. Yeah. She seems like she might be gay. Yes. So I don't think she's going to be seduced by. Joe, I got news for you. She is gay. I mean, she's gay, but she could be gay, but she could be gay, but like. She wants to kiss her friend. She likes Megan Rupino shoes. Fan of Megan Rupino is the new friend of Dorothy as far as I'm concerned. Okay. So we'll make her queer, his biological daughter. Yep.

And the person he's seducing in catfishing is the son, actually. Oh, boy. I mean, it does seem like that is what has been set up. So, like, in terms of what secret could Anna be keeping from Tom? Because there are moments where she has opportunities to tell Tom things and she's not telling him. Yes. The fact that she fucked Max Katie and got pregnant by him. And he's like, I never told anyone what happened. and why would I start now and all that sort of stuff like that.

I think there's a watch on this show where you gloss past that as like something about hiding the evidence or some way she messed up the case or like didn't file a thing on time or whatever. But now that you're laying it out, I think you're absolutely right. There is clearly a secret between them

that is distinct from whatever conspiracy to commit things she has going on with Tom. Yeah. And the way that those secrets intersect and what kids may be involved as a result, I mean, my skin is crawling, just thinking about it. Because I like this idea,

I mean, I hate this idea, but I like this idea of Natalie being seduced not sexually, but sort of like this bleeding heart. You know, when she overhears her parents say, like, we had to do it. Yeah. You know, and she asks her mom something about that,

like, right, he had to plead, right? So this idea that she's just sort of like, believes Max Cady wasn't guilty. Yes. And then maybe finds out he's her real dad and all of these sort of things. Like, you know. Because there is an actor, you know,

she's talking to her. real dad Paul on the phone who seems deeply checked out of everything. And there's an actor playing him, but he's not like an actor who is like known for anything. So I don't think that her biological dad Paul is going to play a huge role in this show. So that's where my mind went. Straight into the gutter, it turns out. I guess so. Okay. Let's talk about Tom Bowden, Captain American himself. Patrick Wilson. I love Patrick Wilson. I'm so glad he's here. A joy every time. And do you think it was his idea to be like, should they I see my arms.

Should I put my sleeves up a little bit? Should I go sleeveless for breakfast? Do you think, do you think Tom Bowden would do that? That's one does. Mental health issues in his family, he was very squirrely when the doctor was asking about history of mental health issues in his family. Flashback to something in his teen years, it seems like his flash. When he's with Zach in the hospital, there's a flash of something, and it looks like a teenage boy, like walking into a room. It does.

And maybe this is just me being Masters of the Universe Pilled, having just seen it, but it sure looks like. a he man poster on the wall, which would suggest like time frame-wise, it would be him and not somebody else. I was trying to, so that, not the one on the door, but like inside. Okay, I was trying to timestamp the one on the door and I couldn't really get it. That's what it looked like to me, but look, it could be another half

naked man in a loin cloth type get-up, you know? Beast master, let's hope. Okay. Extramarital affair? Perhaps. This is a you know, a Cape Fear classic. Or a bait and switch. That's a very ambiguous. That's like sort of what we're meant to think. There's a woman on the phone and And she's like, I don't want to be weird, but you want to hear about this.

We got to talk about it. We need to meet, et cetera, et cetera. Follow question, if he is having an ex-marral affair, is there any possibility that it is Callie, his daughter's friend in a very American beauty kind of way? I hope not. Callie, who's like your dad's hot. She's interested. Yeah. And look, I think a lot of people would be interested.

I hope for Tom's sake. Patrick Wilson. That's not what's happening. You know, the man has dripped and handsome. Okay. microdosing mushrooms Yeah, what's going on exactly? I think for anxiety he's

microdosing mushrooms. So we think GHB, what do we think? I don't know. I don't microdose mushrooms. But what else do you microdose them with a dropper like that? Like GHB is the only thing

I could think of? Like something sedative. Yeah. It's like a take the edge off kind of drug clearly. So, and he's doing it in a way slightly surreptitiously. So whatever, he's

microdosing to take the edge off, A, could be a secret that he's keeping Or be something that could be laced at any point We've seen him put that dropper on his tongue twice And Max Kendi could put anything in that bottle And what could happen to Patrick Wilson Just the vulnerabilities we welcome into our lives It's crazy

Okay, so that's my Tom Bowden rundown Zach Bowden The Sophia thing Yeah No friends It seems like he had The few that maybe stuck with him After the Sophia thing

He seems to have abandoned in for the sake of Angel X. Angel X, who among us? All right. Drugs. She is, what was, what was dirty hot? Dirty hot. She is dirty hot.

Yeah. Drugs? Willingly or not. Like smoking weed, we're told, but also this seems deeper than that. In love slash lust with Angel X. Yeah. Has a secret cell phone. The whole burner situation.

Listen, I'm rooting for you, Anna Bowden, but the fact, like, and first of all, I love the whole, what's this picture and used his face. to unlock the phone. It's a good move. Great move. But also, if your son's going through all this stuff, I think you need a backdoor into his phone no matter what. That feels safe. Like, why are we giving this kid a locked phone?

And also, they just, like, leave, like, the fact that he can, like, wander out into the night and his sister has to go bring him back home. Like, why isn't this kid under more watchful eye at any given moment? Well, I think this is another way in which the story has been modernized, right? Like, if this is a 90s movie, he's under lock and key, right? Like, he has not let out of the house. Or it's at least a bigger ordeal.

Maybe, but Natalie is sort of like vulnerable in the 90s version. But I think the way that they're treating Zach in general, like, one of the things I really do like about these first two episodes is the source of some of the marital tension between Anna and Tom is like their parenting styles. Right. Tom is like, we need to be present with our son to help him get through everything he's getting through. And Anna's like, but I need to solve all his problems by snooping through his phone and like being a detective basically. I need to know what I'm dealing with so I can fix whatever is happening with him. I mean, like, that difference of opinion is starting to wedge them apart. It's also clearly, like, part of what drives that crazy in the first place.

And I know a lot of teenagers hate their parents. This kid hates his parents. Fuck my parents. The scene that he has with Max Katie in the hospital bathroom is terrifying. The way it's shot, like, I think they're doing a great job of. And we don't see all of it. Yes. But, like, the cinematic claustrophobia of, like, Max Cady's reflections all around him.

The idea that this is a man who is very good of manipulating people, witchcraft or not. It has moments alone. I hope it's not witchcraft, I have to say, at the end of the day. I'm fine if he thinks it's witchcraft, but I doubt very much given this story that it's actual effective witchcraft. I hope it's just like a whistle, a dog whistle, a clicker. Something. You know, some trees. Even hypnosis.

I feel like it might fit the story better than witchcraft. But yeah, Zach is in a bad way for a bunch of different reasons. We get some hints as to like the fact that he has a hard time dealing with the fallout of his own actions as far as what he did with Sophia. Blames himself, hits himself. like clearly there's a lot of shame will not leave this poor girl alone like once to and i think this is another thing these first two episodes do really well set up all of the kind of different forms of stalking that are happening right sometimes it's natalie walking down the street and a podcaster is hounding her sometimes it is max katie out in the yard don't do that podcasters we would never

sometimes it's a cougar in the backyard sometimes it's zach who i think genuinely means well but wants to go to this girl's house in the middle of the night to apologize it's like absolutely And she's like, no, thank you. She is not interested. I think in addition, I love that connective tissue you drew between the stocking. I think also there's this idea of like, are there mistakes you can fix? Yes. You know?

And Natalie's like there's some things you just can't fix, right? Last one at least. And this might be in the drugs and or witchcraft thing. The seeing, seeing Adam Katie, seeing the ghost of the AI slop of the teenage version of Max Katie's dead son. I really hope this pays off in a way that we will find satisfying, but I kind of doubt it. I am suspicious of this plot line. Yeah. Can I ask you a question, though, on the catfishing front?

Please. I need your help. I am not a woman, nor am I a murderer pretending to be a woman on the internet. Yes. I need... Life is long. I can't say I understand the series of emojis that exist in some of these flirtatious messages, and I would like for you to help me decipher them.

This is like adolescence all over again. When there was like all this code and all lessons, you're going to ask me as if I, like... We're just trying. A woman of an advanced age is going to be able to decipher these emojis. We're tilting at windmills and sometimes they exist over text. This is the text. This is the text that Zach was sent by Angel X, whoever he or she may be. Not a game, not a trick.

Just a girl who wants how your voice sounds like and wants it closer. The series of emojis is wilting flower, black heart flame. I didn't even know there was a wilting flower emoji. No. What does that mean? What does wilting flower emoji mean? Heartbreak, emotional pain, or death of romance. Maybe love really is dead. Black heart, wilting flower, very like, I'm sad.

Sure. You know, won't you talk to me? I'm so sad. I get that. That part makes sense. Look, I mean, they're just kids in love or a kid and an adult man in love. I did laugh at. adult man trying to seduce him just to get back at his mother who he might have fucked at one point and sent him to jail. The tale is old as time. The text that Zach sent back at one point of

you're not just a girl anymore, you're a storm system. Then let me flood you. Yeah, exactly. Let me flood you. That's wave, black heart wave. We get wave black heart wave. That's self, like, self-explanatory. It was Wilton flower that really, you know, well, think of a baby carrot at eema.com. If you have some other more advanced analysis. The emoji breakdown in adolescence just really broke my brain. Okay. Well, on the storm front, we've got so much storm metaphoring happening in these episodes. I have to think that one of the trees that is being complained about in episode one will fall, right?

I've got a few checkoffs on the list, but that's definitely one of them. It's got to be. You know what I mean? Tom Bowden's inability to get chores done around the house seems. like they're going to come, I mean, is it, yeah, is it just going to crash into the entire house or maybe just into the den that's half outside anyway? I don't know if you want to tag yourself anywhere in these episodes,

but that one is me, unfortunately. The like, I mean to do this chore, but it goes undone. Did you call the people? Sure. Yeah, I'll get right on that. I'm definitely going to do that tomorrow when I don't have five podcasts. I feel like I'm more of the, like, in terms of the differing styles between Tom and Anna Bowden.

Yes. Storm's a Bruin. she's like let's move this party onto the sun porch and Tom's like it'll be fine I'm Anna I'm like why wait to find out why risk it when we can move

the everything you've grilled onto the sun porch better safe than soaked yeah okay Natalie voted queer question mark seems to be do her parents now it seems like her friend doesn't know seems like her granddad knows

yeah at least he has an inkling I think her friend does know. You think so? It'd be weird if we kissed because I don't think of you that way. I think I believe that part is true. Yeah. But does the friend know that Natalie does think of her friend that way? I mean, Natalie's not very subtle.

I think it's better that. I mean, in the like down bad encyclopedia. Yeah. Can you blow smoke into my mouth? Point blank? It's like pretty far up. It's pretty far up the list in terms of examples. It's a real flood me sort of moment.

All right. Max Katie's biological daughter. question mark. Maybe. Megan Rapino shoes. I don't have much else for her. I actually really like Lily Colias as the actor who's playing Natalie. I really like what she's bringing to this part so far.

I think there is a, like there is a warmth, there's a curiosity. There's like big older sister energy. And I think the like combination of like son you don't understand and daughter you take for granted can set us up to do a lot with this family structure. Sure, Anna being like so great, we never have to worry about you. Exactly. It's like, uh, all right. Somebody's got to fish the skunks out of the pool, unfortunately, and she is the one who does it.

I will say, in terms of, like, check off something. One of the in elegant things in these episodes, her taking a full open container to walk down the street, I was like, that's unhinged behavior. Why is she doing that? And it's simply so that she can throw it at a scummy podcaster. As you should. Yeah, maybe you should always walk around with an open container just in case a scummy podcaster comes calling. Other mysteries. Green Hood Mask Lady

seen by both Anna and Max What's going on with her? She could be anyone. I don't think we have any grounds to even guess who she might be yet. Do you feel any inkling as far as what that character might represent or where they might intersect

with these people's lives? I mean, she's a real person since both Anna and Max saw her, right? She was in the hospital bumping into Anna and then it was like on the street or something where she ran into Max or was kind of like lurking around him.

Yeah. That hair could be a wig. Yes. And then the mask covers the face hood covering a lot of things. The green hooded jacket, I think, is quite tasteful. Yeah. It's a nice look. I like the look.

His dead wife. You think his... So who was found in the swamp? I don't know. So we do get acknowledgement that the wife's body was like... Now we're on stolen land. Maybe so. The wife's body was left in like a ball.

or a swamp and was like chewed up by gators basically, perhaps beyond recognition. But then how would they even know that it was supposed to be Max Katie's wife in the first place? I don't know. Dental records, something like that. So they swapped out the teeth? Who's they? I don't know. This must go all the way to the top.

Yeah. But I don't know what the top of what. Here's an idea. What if Max Katie's wife pregnant and maybe Adam like actually exists somewhere? Because like maybe she's like, I don't want to raise my kid with this dude. You think she faked her own death? and frames him or something. Wow.

Yeah. So we potentially have a man who went to prison for killing his wife who he did not kill. Yeah. And a mistress who is claiming credit for that kill, even though she also did not kill her. That woman escapes gave birth to an actual child who may or may not be on TikTok posting aos,

a slot videos of himself. They're now infiltrating the psyche of a whole other family, the sister of which may actually be Max Katie's biological daughter. Rob, we have 10 episodes to film. Oh my gosh. God. Don't take anything for granted. I don't.

I don't. I don't. I don't. This is ultimately going to be the struggle of the show, I think. Who else could she be? I don't know. There's no other like woman around,

you know what I mean? Like there's no one else. The mistress, I thought about them. Couldn't she be the like Tom's potential mistress? Maybe. But why is she masking her face like that? I don't know. She's to mask her face because the two people who have bumped into her

would recognize her. Yes. That's why she has to be masked. Well, it makes sense that the person that Tom... And the long blonde hair is like a real throwoff for like someone with like, you know, dark hair, which is what his wife looks like. I really have no clue. I am terrified now that all of these threads are linking together potentially this way.

This is a dizzying amount of potential mystery. It's so much. And I really think maybe they should have done six episodes, but we'll see what happens. One other thing, and, you know, we talk about plenty of other things, but one other sort of logistical thing I want to talk about. about. If you go to Does the Dog Die.com, Cape Fear is a real does the dog die.com. Yeah. This family doesn't have a dog. No. It is a cat. And Max Katie is a dog lover. He's got a dog. He's got a dog. He's just out here like having a good time adopting dogs.

Oh yeah. I love. Making bilingual dick jokes. I loved that scene where he's just like screwing this guy over and taking his dog as his own. I thought that was great. And then I was like, oh, he's not going to kill a dog. But then I rewash episode one. I was like, uh-oh, there's a cat. There is a cat. Mr. Peanut Butter, I believe, is his name. Mr. Peanut Butter, Joe, is cooked. There's no way that cat survives this season. Given that this guy wrote on handle,

perhaps literally. Yeah. Who's to say? So I'm on peanut butter watch, honestly. Does Thecat die.com? I'm worried about it. All right. Anything else that we haven't talked about that we need to get into?

Honestly, there's still somehow a lot of stuff in this show. Yeah, there is. Yeah, we don't have certainty on what happened exactly with Byron and his mom. But I feel for sure that Max Katie got him like drugged or, you know, on like which drugs or something like that. Like I think it's possible that his mom did kill him and then died. Sure. But like in terms of he went out and got drunk and took a lot of drugs. You think he, you think Max Katie nudged the situation along.

Yeah, he's a nudger. And that's, I think, one area where all of this gray area that Max Katie is living in like really potentially works. Because we get this information. Like Byron is like kind of skittish around crowds And so the idea that he wouldn't want to go to this big gala Or that it might spark some like real angst for him Or strain with his relationship with his mom Plausible

But yeah the fact that he is kind of like nudging things along And I think this exists too in just his language And the way this character is written right now Where it is it is so much Oh I didn't mean that literally about seeing my dead wife and child But also I did mean that other part literally About the fingers and toes It's like he's having

of both ways. He did mean that about his wife and his child. Apparently. Yeah. Everything is a simple. Everything is literal. Everything's a storm. It really is.

Everything's a wilted flower emoji. Anything else, you know, how many flashbacks do you have tolerance for? Because listen, we get this like black and white opener, which is a prison flashback. And inside the prison flashback, there's a colored flashback to Max Katie's dead wife who's maybe not dead. Yeah. And the ultrasound. Can I ask you a question about the prison flashback? Please.

Is there any thought in your mind that Anna and Tom would be so ghoulish as to be like behind a hit on Max Katie in prison? I don't think so. Seems beyond what they're capable of. No, if Anna's like, let's tie these loose ends, I don't want anyone to ever know that I had sex with him or that he's the biological father of my child. You know, that's possible. What a web we weave. But if, you know, if she had sex with Max Katie, like when she was representing him and she was not sober at the time. Yeah.

Which drugs or otherwise? like that's that's you know are we going to get a flashback to 17 years ago Max and Anna and their affair yes okay we're doing like a CGI no I don't know sorry I'm walking that back I don't think we're getting the actual flashback I think we'll just get expository scenes where they talk about okay um we're gonna get Tom childhood flashbacks I think we'll get more of that poster sort of situation whatever is in that room Anna and her dad flashbacks I don't know if we'll get that one literally.

Okay. But clearly he's going to be back around at some point. I feel like we're just getting as many flashbacks as we can to fill the 10 episodes of this show. Do you think we will get more flashbacks or in Cape Fear tradition, one of Anna or Tom walking out onto their porch and looking out into the darkness holding a weapon of some kind? They have to do that. I mean, they've already done it like five times. It is Cape Fear required. But how many times is the question?

Just shoot it into the, just shoot the gun into the, empty the clip. the darkness. It's the only way to be safe. All right. Anything else you want to talk about? Joe, I have a couple quick heading things before we get out here. Tom has this line at the very beginning of episode one. She split herself into two different people. It's a 14-hour procedure, but if you survive it, you get a lot done. Is that a severance joke? I hope so. On Apple, it feels too coincidental.

I hope so. Feels like it has to be. He also says that skunks are dumb. Is that true? Tough for the skunk community. Is that true? I did a lot of research on this. It does not seem to be true. Pigeon Hater Rob Mahoney? Skunk lover? Skunk seemed like better, like better members of the community, to be honest. I take a skunk over a possum, I'll tell you that much right now.

I don't have a problem with that possum. I think don't fire, you know what? Don't fire nail guns at the possums. They didn't do anything to you? Don't fire the nail gun in general, Kelly. That's a check-offs nail gun. You think that's going to be wielded? Yeah, that nail gun's coming back.

I hope against the right person. I don't know who that is. A stray nail gun in the house? Yeah. It's pretty gnarly already. I did find a lot of skunk materials out there, insisting that they are quite intelligent and quite smart. That said, most of the sources seem like pet skunk propaganda. So I don't know if that's true or not.

But a quick shout out before we get out of here, Paul Schneider of Paul Parks and Rec fame, notorious Mark Brandanowitz, I want to say, written off the show. The problem with all of season one appears very briefly as a cop. I hope we see him again. Really? Yeah, that's him in the hospital. one of the guys who's interrogating Max Katie. I love Paul Schneider.

I completely missed him. I think you're beard blind right now. I guess so. A little facial hair and just like can't even see these guys anymore. I miss Schneider entirely. Well, he'll come back. I'm sure you will. And he'll probably die, would be my guess.

If you are a law enforcement official or anyone just around this family, watch out. I fear your life is in danger. Watch out. Follow question. Last question. Do you think Savannah coffee roasters got some money for the product placement inside of this episode? They should have paid some money for the product placement in this episode.

I've just had my toe cut off. All I want is a fresh hot cup black Savannah coffee roasters. It was way too specific. Here's the question. Do you want that kind of publicity if you're Savannah coffee roasters? I don't want Zach as my spokesman. No. Tolless Zach?

Also, I think Tom's wearing like a local ice cream shop shirt at one point. So I think they're trying to be like, we're really in. Savannah, but I just thought that was a really weird line. I did look up the reviews for Savannah coffee roasters. I got to say the service doesn't seem great over there. It was consistently like, you know what? The coffee's pretty good, but these people did not pay attention to me. What is wrong with coffee shops today?

That's why Tom's brewing at home. They're not going. I thought he was, when he said I would like a black hot cup of Savannah. I was like, are they door dashing this? What do they do? I thought one of them was going to pop out and go get it. No, the service is bad. You got to brew at home.

Got to buy the beans. Savannah coffee roasters. All right. Savannah Coffee Roasters, you want to send us some beans. We'll take a good. Sure. Why not? You want to hit them with that email one more time? Yeah, that email is think of a baby carrot at gmail.com or if you prefer prestige TV at Spotify.com. Yeah. The inbox is always open. Yes.

We are wrapping up Widows Bay. There's a couple more episodes of Widows Bay left. And we're, you know, sort of figuring it out as we go. We're looking around. We're eyeing the landscape. But we really would like to hear from you whether or not you're all in on Cape Fear and you would like us to cover Cape Fear in the way that we cover shows. Just straight up, are you watching it? Like, we have no idea what the imprint of this show will be. Presumed Innocent feels like a bellwether, but, you know, these things can be lightning

in a bottle or Savannah Storms in a whatever. I will say, if people ask me, should I watch Cape Fear? Here's what I will say. I'd watch Javier Bardem do almost anything. He's so good in this. He's incredibly good at this. We haven't, so stupid. We haven't talked about that yet.

No. Guess what? He's fantastic. He's really sad. I also love Amy Adams in like a very Southern murder. limited series. I'm a big fan of that. Patrick Wilson, I'm always a huge fan of. I think he has like, he's got such like Captain America, dipped in handsome, dipped in handsome good looks that like I think he gets underestimated and I just think he's incredibly good and I'm really

excited. I love his like, you know, dad making inappropriate jokes when he's like, uh, I could pop it on ice, pop that toe back on for, you know what I mean? Like, I just love what he's doing with Tom so far. I love Tom's balance of like, we're told he's like the head of his class and law school, like top of his class, but also he has that kind of like dad's low EQ, like, I'm going to blur it out all of my son's psychological problems in the middle of this hospital and just tell everyone all about it. Like, poor situation a lowerness. Yeah, his dad is like, did you see adolescence?

Also, look, we are, I would say we are of the people of the ringer, maybe co-counselors in the defense of Amy Adams. We have been on the forefront. That's true. I'm not going to pretend that everything she's in, that she's like, I can't miss or like never Mrs. sort of actor, but her highs are exceptional. They're so good. Remains to be seen if this is going to be

that. I do love the premise of her in this story. I will say both of their southern accents are like real spotty in these first two episodes. Sometimes they're using them. Sometimes they're not. To be honest, I don't even care. I'm having a fun time. It's what I kind of love. Javier Berdem is doing a like, I was raised in Spain until

I was 13 and then I learned English traumatically in North Carolina. That's his accent. He's got like there's something sort of dialed in. something countrified about the way that he's speaking English. We should say, dodgy accents are a proud tradition at Cape Fear because what the fuck is De Niro doing? It's very true.

In his Oscar nominated role. I'm going to call it homage. Okay. pastiche of something. Yeah. So I would say, if people are like, should I watch this show? I would say, yeah. Watch this show. Are we all going to regret that around episode seven? Possibly. String that the story is going to be a challenge. I look forward to seeing how they handle it. I would say this is one, though, where if you are very skittish about being followed, stalking, like, I think this would be a really hard watch. There are a lot of people just, like, creeping up on each other for absolutely no reason in this show. Sure.

Other than that, I think it's well enough made, and I am intrigued. Okay. What's a normal amount to be worried about stalking versus an abnormal amount to be worried about stocking? I don't know where to draw those lines. Is that for me to say? Okay. Thanks to everyone who worked on this show. Jacob Cornett is here as always.

Holding it down. Cameron Dinwiddy is, you know, doing the edit on this podcast. Shout out to our team who are in Sweden as we speak. Living it up. And we'll be back with Widows Bay and perhaps more of the show. Oh, and last one at least, Rob Perlman's in this show. We don't know who he's playing yet. Patrick Fishler, who's always really fun, is in this show.

we don't know who he's playing yet. I hope like an even scummier podcaster would be a fun role for Patrick Fittler. A whole podcaster ecosystem. Are we doing, okay, we keep saying goodbye and coming back, but are we doing a retrial of Max Katie? Because he's provisionally released. Yes. And they haven't, they're going to, there's some sort of trial that he has to do. Oh, is there?

That's sort of what I got from CCH Pounder's character, Noah. when Anna's like, but we're not even taking his case. And she's like... I thought she's saying like the case is done. He's already out. Well, she's like... I thought she was saying he's provisionally released. I believe she said, he literally said provisionally released.

So I think there is like something that has to come. Is it a court case? Is it a something else? You know, just paperwork has to be filed? I don't know what that case, you know, is. But here's one other loose end we didn't talk about too. Actually what presumed innocent season two is. Wow.

Honestly, they would kind of fit of a world. I don't know how like... Rachel Brosnahan defending Javier Bar Dem. Especially if season two is in Chicago. I don't know how we get to Savannah or vice versa. But one thing I'm still wondering about is like we are told that Max Cady is basically urged by Anna to take this plea deal, right? For what he believes is like a 20 year sentence.

To save his life. To save his life. A 20 year sentence. Yeah. Then something happens. And it sounds like the judge based on his telling unilaterally decides that this is a sentence? I don't know if that's an exaggeration or maybe I'm misconstruing what he's saying. I might have missed a detail there. What we know for a fact is he was given a life sentence.

You don't plea for a life sentence in the vast majority of cases, I guess, unless the death penalty is on the line. So what even happened with the plea deal? I don't know. Doesn't seem great legally. No. Okay. I think we did it. I think so too. I think we made a podcast. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Rob. We'll see you soon. Bye.