The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Chad Powers’ Season 2 Breakdown With Creator Michael Waldron

Episode Date: September 9, 2026

In our first (!) Showrunner Special episode, Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin are joined by ‘Chad Powers’ cocreator Michael Waldron to talk about why he’s so interested in centering flawed characters, how writing Season 2 was different from the first, the NIL era of college football, advice for first-time TV writers, and more! (0:00) Intro (3:13) How ‘Chad Powers’ was inspired by ‘Heat’ (5:56) Why Michael Waldron is so interested in the idea of the do-over (8:51) Writing flawed characters on an arc (11:59) Balancing the mystery aspect of the story (15:26) Differences between writing Season 1 and Season 2 (17:27) The NIL era (21:08) Taking notes from TV executives (24:53) Waldron’s career leading up to this point (26:02) Leaning into yearning and romance (41:34) What project of his was most instructive and his advice for up and coming writers Email us! [e-mail] Follow us on IG and TikTok! Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guest: Michael Waldron Producers: Kai Grady and Devon Renaldo Studio Production: Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to by Uber Eats. You can get almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Sorry, you can't get a beach deliver, but you can get a peach. A canoe, no. Shampoo, yes. A rocket? No way. Chocolate, yes way. It's everything you need, including $10 off your first grocery order with code,

anything 30, 30. Get almost, almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now. Order a minimum of $30 required, valid on grocery, convenience, retail, specialty foods, or flower delivery orders only, Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to the Presti-TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

We're doing something a little different today. We're calling it a showrunner special. We've got Michael Waldron of Chad Powers, Loki, et cetera, et cetera, fame. We will talk about his incredible career. Michael Waldron. I'm a big fan of his. So we will talk to Michael Waldron. Mallory Rubin is also here to bring the sort of football bona fides to this conversation

about a television show about college football. So that was very useful to the conversation because certainly I could not provide that. Rob Mahoney will be back next week. We're doing the new season of Slow Horses episode one. We've already recorded that episode. So that will be dropping next week after that episode drops. Just a quick preview of our conversation with Michael Waldron.

Chad Powers, season two, spoilers, obviously. So if you haven't watched all of Chad Powers season two is dropped on Hulu last week, you're going to want to do that before you listen to this podcast. So spoiler warning for Chad Powers. We talked about how Chad Powers relates to Michael Waldron's experience doing superhero storytelling for Marvel. We talked about what classic television like Mad Men, V, Breaking Bad and Fleabag, etc. How all of those things are in the mix for Chad Power season two. So a real prestige TV feed special there.

And then our last question for Michael, which I really loved his answer to, was sort of advice for people who want to get in. into making television, sort of how he would advise they go about that. So you're going to stay tuned for that answer. So that is what we're doing today. And let's go now to our conversation with Michael Waldron. All right, we are here today with the great Michael Waldron. Michael, welcome to the podcast. Hi, guys.

We're thrilled to have you here. Thank you for having me. What a treat. What a joy. I'm honored. The honor is ours. What a thrill. We've been following your career since Loki season one at the very least.

You wrote my first ink. in the trades. Your first ever ink in the trade? Featurewell, Vanity Fair, the big times. That was like, I was like, fancy photo shoot, I remember it well. I read that and I was like, I've arrived. I am not, I can't, I'm not this guy. I was like, whoa.

We spent, it was deep pandemic. Yeah. So we spent like four hours on Zoom. It's awesome. There was nothing else to do. Yeah. And you also showed me the like one million post-its you had from trying to figure out the Loki time loops and all those other things that were going on.

Post-its. Yeah. Yeah. Not a cork board, not dry erase. No, I'm so dissuaries. The vessel of choice. Yeah, just making it up as all bullshit. What happens when the adhesive fades?

The memories are made. You start over. Prune the timeline. Yeah, there you know. That's the TVA is really for. All right. We are here to talk about Chad Power season two, among other things. Mallory's here is our football expert.

I'm here as someone who, as someone who watches television sometimes. But my first question. for you is actually about movies, Michael Waldron. Because we work at The Ringer, I am legally obliged to start with this question, which is a couple weeks ago when I saw you at Chad Powers event, you told me that one of the main inspoes for season two was the film Heat, as well as the Dark Night, which is also just based on Heat. And so my question for you is, since we at the Ringer are obsessed with Heat as well, what do you think it is about that film that is so irresistible to people who love telling stories.

It's just, it's so, is there anything cooler than a guy my age talking about heat on a podcast? We work with Chris Ryan. Just finally, that's what people get to see. You know, I think it's,

right, we're here. I mean, I think there is just, there's something, it's just cool. How do you define what that is, movies just everybody in it is cool they're doing cool shit it's like that that is kind of what you're what you're what you're what I'm always chasing is you know what how do we make this cool chad powers how do you make that cool that's like the highest degree of difficulty possible but like we're you know Glenn and I are like let's make it cool let's make it awesome mean heat I think it's too

you know it it's characters who are incredibly driven by you know, they're chasing something and they'll kind of go down with the ship and the guns are really loud. And that's probably that. I mean, we, it's like there's one gun shot in Chad Power season two with the 3D printed gun.

And the sound mix, I was like, louder, louder. I was like, like the gun, just, it's like the guns in heat. I was like, it's Michael Man. I was like, it's Tom Cruise wasting the guys in the alley and collateral. Like, it should be that loud. So I think why is Heat so cool?

It's because Michael Mann just cranks the gunshots. Okay. This makes it clear, I think, that Danny, you know, Whiskers is a big Heat guy, which I love to know. I love to know. Well, I mean, and obviously, you know, Heat was the inspiration for Toby Huss in his Howard Powers get up. The astonishing stuff. It's like the liver spots that, you know. The Toby Huss fans are really living this year.

I know, we're thriving. We're thriving. The jump scare when he first appeared in the full prosthetic was really something. And I was so invested that as he's talking to the, you know, the ride share driver, I was like, don't, don't do it. Don't lift the wig. Don't peel the face. You know, you talked in explaining your love for heat about the chase, the pursuit,

the thing you're working toward. And something that I think is like an undeniable parallel between Chad in Chad Powers, Russ. and should we refer to him as Chad or Russ? Should we just see what feels right in the moment? Maybe that'll be illuminating. Yeah, that's what we do in the script. It's like if he's dressed as Chad, he's Chad. Okay.

But then I have to demarcate speaking as Russ. So it's Glenn's like, fuck. He has a stuntyering and he's Russ. It's like Chad face, Russ voice. Yeah. You know, one of the things that feels like connective tissue between Chad and Loki is the idea of the do-over, right? And like, why is that so interesting to you not only as a person, but as a creator, as a showrunner, why is that something that you want your protagonists to be pursuing? Like, not just some sort of achievement, right?

Some sort of level of excellence, but a redo on a mistake that they made. Audiences love stories that are about some kind of wish fulfillment. And I think that's probably a wish fulfillment for a lot, you know, for a lot of us is, you know, I wish I could be a different kind of person in this way. Now, we're probably not all as flawed as Loki or as maybe as Russ Holiday, but there is a real fun fantasy element to that. What if I got to change things up, you know, be somebody else? And so I don't know.

I think audiences hook into that. Why do I keep telling that story? I actually kind of like that. I'm like, I think my wife sometimes looks at me like, are you, what's going on? And I'm like, no, I'm happy. I'm happy with who I am. I find it compelling. It's probably, you know, Mad Men's my favorite show ever.

And maybe it's, and maybe that's why. It's just, there's something about those characters who are just, they want to, they want to start over. And I think what's interesting is that you don't really. fix yourself in doing that. You know, the answer is always you got to go back to the original version of yourself and just do the work. And so there's just, it's a story that is particularly well suited for TV, which, you know, if movies are about characters really being transformed, I feel like great TVs about

characters taking incremental steps. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe toward becoming better people or just becoming aware of how they're like, shitty people. Right. And so maybe maybe that's why. Maybe that's why I keep doing this. We love a character on an arc. We do love a character on an art. Like on a related question. I don't think it's the exact same question. I think it's related, which is like, I feel like you almost take a relish in presenting a challenge to the audience of here's a guy. You mentioned

flawed. You're like, here's a guy. He's tough. I'm going to make you love him anyway. Do you feel like that's true of something you do in storytelling? Yeah, high degree of this one's really tough. This is, this is. Yeah. I mean, the shirt he's wearing in the pilot and the cyber truck, like, you know, and that's, by the way, that's just, it's like, it's Glenn. You know, we, it's like when you've got Glenn Powell, I was like, okay, this guy is so likable. We can go maximum asshole. Like, let's really push it.

And, you know, I mean, you can go too far. Like, I do, I do think that, like, that can repair. hell audiences, and maybe there's a lesson in that. But to me, it does make the journey so much more satisfying when they, if you get to watch them arc into a decent person. Loki, fortunately, the great work, he'd already, you know, Avengers had him pull somebody's eyeball out as he, like, grin, like a psychopath. Yeah, we had so much history with Loki, but we have, you know, we've got the Rose Bowl.

Yeah, we've got, yeah. of what Ross does, which like, you know, there's a, I think, a generous read of it that's like, boy, your worst moment in this like real pressure cooker of visibility and feeling like everything in your life led to this moment and then you made a terrible mistake. But to like establish for us so quickly that then he just kept doing everything wrong. And I love over the course of, you know, it's six episodes per season, two seasons. And they're compact episodes, right? It's more between 30 to 40 minutes each. And like, that's not a lot of time. But we've And we're in one season, two seasons of television, one season of college football, right? So it's just a few months of Chad's new life. And I love how, yeah, how, you know, we've learned so much about how he sees himself, like what you were saying about, well, you can't, you don't actually, like, you get a do-over, but you don't really get a do-over. He has to go back to, like, learning to be okay with Russ.

And that's been very fun to watch. When you, I mean, when you meet him, it's the, you know, the original sin. I think in his mind is, well, I dropped. Right. my life went to shit because I dropped the ball. Maybe that's true. Maybe that, maybe that isn't. But that is what he is told himself.

But really, and I think the first season interrogates this and gets, he vocalizes it at the end. It's like, it's that he can't take accountability for that. You know, and he's able to, he spends the whole season, um, blaming everyone else. And finally, at the end of that first. season. He just says, I'm sorry, I just got excited. And I think it's,

I'm, you know, characters who can't take accountability, people who can't take accountability, like, are fascinating to me. And so that, I don't know, again, it's just a great character to go on the ride with.

Accountability is a fascinating lens, actually, into something we wanted to ask, sort of another superhero comp with, you know, masks and fake secret identities, like fake names. We've got a literal bat cave comp here, right? To be able to walk that line where learning to take accountability and show some sort of, not only like acknowledgement of, but contrition for the things that Russ has done,

while perpetuating this vast lie is kind of an amazing bit of context to watch a character grow inside of. And I think one of the things that unlocks that is who else is in cahoots with him. So how do you, this is such a classic superhero conundrum brought over into a sports story where like, how have you thought about finding and maintaining the balance where like it is crucial? Obviously, Danny learning is like from the word go because he's got to be the partner in crime. Bringing Ricky into the circle of awareness is very painful, very fraught what Ricky says to chat at the end of season one is like, you couldn't say the most hurtful thing anybody says to an.

other character at any point in the run of the show. But then we build from there. And Ricky has chances to step away but decides to remain complicit in perpetuating this lie. So, like, how do you figure out what the sweet spot is where enough people know so that Chad slash Russ can live some degree of an honest truth with those characters he's moving forward with while not having every other character know so that like even a show that, you know, in a very fun wink-wig way,

pushes the bounds of credulity, like, doesn't have that tip into, all right, does Coach Hudson know? Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's each season, one character has fans. It's like Danny finds out at the beginning, but Danny's Alfred, you know, it's like he's, and the superhero thing, maybe last season I wasn't thinking about it. This season, I was like run straight at it. Yeah. Like, because it's, it is a superhero story.

It's how, in it, you know, and it's kind of goes back and forth from being Batman, you know, Bruce Wayne, Batman or Peter Parker, Spider-Man, depending on, you know, I think all the love story stuff is probably much more Peter and Spidey. And then he said, you're a Joker this season. Obviously, we have our, we have our Joker. But, but the, as far as who do you bring in on it, I think the show and the, and I think the reason, that people are having a great time with season two is the show becomes its fully realized version of itself when Ricky's in on it.

Because Ricky is the eyes of the audience, really? Ricky is the one who can say this is basement where two men are cooking skin. Like, this is insane. She can constantly call them on their BS. Cooking skin, whatever is. And Perry Matfeld's so, she's so funny. Yeah, she's great.

I think that just that unlocks it. And in many ways, she's the only one you need in on it. And, you know, just from like the romance angle, she becomes sort of the conscience of the show. And it's like, well, if you can redeem Russ in her eyes, then he can be redeemed perhaps in the eyes of the world. And so I think that's the journey that season two starts in one. From like a showrunner perspective, I'm curious,

what's the difference between you approaching a first season and a second season? of a show that you're working on. I mean, season one, you're finding, especially with something like this, where you're really creating it out of thin air, you're finding your footing and kind of figuring out the tone. It's tone, you know,

and I think season two is the show I always wanted to be making. Season one, I was like, can we make that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's certainly not the show that Ness, that I didn't walk in and pitch this is a psychotic thriller drama like comedy drama

like that's... Heat was not on the vision board. Yeah, yeah. Silence the Lamb's, you know. So the show kind of finds its way into what it wants to be. And I think that happens a lot of times,

especially with the best comedies. Because you're just settling into tone and, you know, and certainly you're figuring out your actors, strengths and everything. And by season two, I knew. I was like, well, let's, like, let's send it. Like, let's, the bus scene.

When I think about season one, I'm like, the scene on the bus between them is the show. Yeah. That's, that's Chad Powers. So, let's just, yeah. And I'm like, yeah, because that's, because that's, because that's, because that's Loki, too. For sure.

It's like that's, and it's like, that's, I think for me, it was also maybe accepting that no matter what, I'm going to end up turning something into a drama. Yeah. And so not running away from that. Tone is evolving. Tone is cementing.

Something else that is evolving in real time is the NIL era of college football, which Joanna told me I was allowed to ask about. Yeah. So I think you have to ask about it. We're like rapidly trying to stay relevant. This is what I wanted to ask you about because this is a show. There's a version of Chad Powers that exists.

How soon into the pilot did you say it was mentioned? I think 10 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I had said to you, I was like, this is an NIL era, like, Petri Dish show. And obviously, you know, the connection to Eli's places and the origin of the show. Like, there's a version of Chad Powers that you can do pre-NIL where, like, all of the secrets and the things that go into, like, the money and the boosters and everything makes sense.

It's just happening even further in the shadows. The fact that we're now in the era of. Open corruption. The corruption's out in the open. Yeah, a character like Trisha in an NIL era show is like cocaine, right? Fantastic. Fantastic character. It's unbelievable to watch.

She's the best, my queen. Even something on the plot front, like it is plausible to a modern college football audience that Chad Powers having the season he is having would go up there and say, I'm coming back. Because it's not just the emotional decision. You know that the boosters would be paying him as much as he'd make in the pro. right? So my question then is got a real kick-it out of this specifically on the Lane Kiffin front because you guys wonder, chefs kiss stuff got multiple Lane Kiffin mentions into season two. And then like we're right now, the college football season's beginning.

Lane Kiffin is in like active legislation about whether guys who declare for the pros can go back and play college football. It's like on one of time. It's like season one we hit on the cyber truck. Season two, we hit on Lane. I'm like, I don't know what it's going to be season three. It's like the VEEP effect. When that happens, do you just feel like this is promo for our show? I mean, yes, but also it's not we don't, I don't feel like a genius. It's like you can do it with Lane Kiffin, it's like that's any season for the as long as he's been. Lee is always going to provide a new stuff.

Yeah, he's always entertaining. Do you feel then like you have to, because something that would have been nefarious before in the sport and like to be clear, terrible things, illicit things, scandalous things have always happened in college football. Right. But something that would have happened in the shadows before is now permissible. Like, you have to try even harder to push the boundaries of what your characters would feel compelled to do in secret? Totally. Totally. I mean, I think that's the... Like, how do you do that? It is like, and Veeeps are good, where it's like... The bars move.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, now you watch Veep and you're like, oh, this is sweet. And I remember when I watched it, I was like, oh, what a biting satire. Could you imagine if it was like this? Optimistically, we are living through like a snapshot of time in the history of college football where it's like it's really the Wild West. Yeah. And maybe in five to 10 years, we'll look back on this and almost feel like the steroider of just like that was nuts. Like, can you believe how crazy that was?

But this is the world where the audience is watching the show, you know? And it's like, so I think, I mean, this show is taking place in 2026 or whatever. whatever it is, it's like, it's taking place right now. Yes. And so we, to us, we are like, let's reflect the reality of it right now. And so it's good for us that they can pay players. Like, because that's like, you know, when Trisha is like, you're going to be Chad Powers for a long, long time. Like, you know, if she's Gus Fring, it's like she can be Gus even more easily.

Right. Yeah. It's like because her power is just out in the open now. It's like I love Trisha. Buddy Garrity on steroids in the best way. I love it. Exactly. A reality of running a show for any network is that there's the vision you have

and then there's a larger apparatus around the show. And I'm curious how you as a creator handle getting notes that contradict maybe your core idea of what you wanted. the show to be. I really am appreciative of my partners at Hulu and 20th because I think that when they heard adaptation of Chad Powers with Glenn Powell, they were like, all right, this is going to be so sweet. It's like you imagine, I know what you imagine. Yeah. And I was like, this is going to be fucked up. Like, this show is going to be demil. Let me tell you about Jerry. Yeah, yeah. We're going to do weird.

And then this season, it was like, we're, it's, you know, especially with me directing a lot of it. I was like, it's going to be a thriller. Like, that's just how we want to do it. And the network was like, great. You know, they got behind it and his cuts came in. They were like, okay, so it's a thriller. And I was like, well, it's a romance. Yeah.

But kind of like a romantic thriller. Yeah. They're like, but it's a comedy? I was like, I'm laughing. And they're like, okay, yeah, we are two, I guess. In this season, especially, like, marketed it, like, exactly how I feel like we made it. And so they came along for the ride. And that's really what you dream of.

And I think probably harder on a show like this, you're not always so lucky. So, yeah, I mean, you know, Craig and Carrie. and everybody runs things over there. They've been great partners. Friend of a different pod that we do, House of Our, Ryan Condal, House of Dragon Showrunner, he's fond of saying that, like, whenever he gets a note that says,

great first draft, that just means, this sucks. So I'm curious, like, are there any coded notes or notes that you've gotten where you're sort of like, you had to learn on the job? Oh, that's what this means. This is really interesting. I'm like, oh, you hate it. Yeah.

Oh, interesting. I thought it was a really interesting choice to have Jerry in his jockstrap doing karate. Incredible, genuinely incredible season. Yeah, I mean, oh my God, what a... But both times we've wound up kind of having to shoot this thing like on the run.

We're not, I mean, you know, we're kind of shooting. I'm not doing a ton of rewrites. So it's like, you know, we're all... It's glens of movies. lucky to have him. So, you know. But, but there, yeah, there's definitely plenty of, like, what, uh, maybe, maybe just paste this up.

Maybe paste it. And I'm like, that's code for, okay. It's not, this scene isn't as funny as I think it is. I mean, I love it because it also just sounds like perfectly mapped on to the coaches giving Chad feedback on how to run the offense. Totally. But it's like, there, there are plenty of times, it's like, in our words, like people have these adversarial relationships.

A show like this cannot get onto television with like a huge marketing apparatus behind it without the network, the studio getting it. And so I'm, you know, I'm, I am lucky that's because this is crazy. It's like for this show to, I look at the shit that these characters are saying. And I'm like, that's, this is so specifically me. I'm like. But like at a certain point, how? Having had the career trajectory you've had,

do you still say, wow, this is luck? Or do you say, wow, I'm Michael Waldron. I must be pretty good at this. Joanna Robinson wrote about me in Vanity Fair. If I said that to my wife, it would be the funniest. Your story is amazing. Like, it's an incredible fair. I've been, I mean, I've been super fortunate

and to work on the stuff that I've worked on. But nothing's guaranteed, you know, and it's like, even this show, last, last season, I mean, it didn't, it's not like it set the world on fire, you know? And I think that was a like, oh yeah, you know, just, it's one thing when you make stuff for Marvel, the whole world's going to watch, but it's like, you go out there on your own and try and make something. It's tough. It's like, you know, it's me. It's Glenn. But like, the audience has to find it and they have, they have to want it. And thank God, this, you know, it feels like this season that maybe that's

happening. But it's like, there's, you know, It's a tough, it's a tough business. And so the longer you do this, the more you actually do feel fortunate when you're working on something that is connecting. That is like incredibly healthy and measured perspective. And it strikes me that it is quite distinct from how a lot of the characters in this show think about their life, which is like measuring it. Which is how I actually feel.

Don't I mean, we all do, right? This is something I wanted to ask you about because, so like you're a sports fan, right? You're a Bulldogs fan, go UGA. Curious how you feel about their chances this season. I've got some thoughts. All the way. Is there a year? It's always our year.

It is always. It's always their year to at least be in the mix. Must be nice. Chad Powers, heels, like sports and the pursuit inside of sports is something you're really interested in. But you're not focusing on fandom so much. You're focusing on the figure who is seeking something

and then does not know how to be. to like navigate their own circumstances absent that outcome, which is like an incredibly rich text because it is whether or not somebody is like the head football coach of the catfish or suddenly the star quarterback or the backup. Shout out Jerry. We're going to mention Jerry as often as we can today. Yes, as we should. I quite agree. But I love this because you have Chad, like the bad choice, the lack of accountability that we already talked about, the question of whether that kind of emerges over the course of the two seasons so far of like, all right, I'm just, I got to do the one time. And then it's like, would that be enough actually, right? Is the thing that you really

need the love of everybody telling you that you're worth something? You have coach Hudson, who's like, got his version of, I just need the one. He's maybe the only one I believe it from so far, actually. Jerry is, Jerry again, he's fascinating to me as a figure for this because like he goes from Ashucks, how lucky am I just to breathe the cat. that fish locker room air. And now he's like, I got a taste of it for a second and nothing else will ever measure up, right? So this idea of like the pursuit of excellence, great sports story, like the thing we all love, failing to reach the pinnacle.

Like what does that do to a person and how do they exist in the face of that? That's like really central to what you're exploring here. A, I just love yearning. It's probably why I'm always doing love story. love stories. It's like, it's like that's, it's my favorite thing to write, to film, to edit. It's, it's the best feeling on film. And so that can be two people in love. It can also be characters yearning for success that has eluded them. In terms, it's, what you're saying is, is so interesting, that idea of like, if I just win this championship, then I'll be happy.

I'll tell you a story. I remember when I was out here, I just, I hadn't been in L.A. very long. I've been lucky enough to get an internship on Rick and Morty. First season. And I'm, I'm like changing toilet seats for Dan. I would always say to my wife, my then girlfriend at the time, I would say, if I could just sell a script. That's like, that was the thing. Sell a script. You'd just like write these pilots. You just sell script. I literally said this. Come in, sit down on the couch. And it's like, I'd just be happy.

Then I went and I got a little deeper in my career. It was a PA on community and I'd written the pilot for heels. Shout out DWL. I sold it. I sold it to Paramount Television and Stars and, you know, sign my deal and everything and came home and sat on the couch and felt probably maybe for the first time of my life incredibly depressed. Because I had this feeling of this. This did not transform me. I am who I was yesterday.

And so in working through that, I do think it was transformative because I was like, oh, yeah, that's not, you can't attach your happiness never going to come from one outcome. But I am fascinated by characters who think that. And because I, it's like I think all of us

who are creative people, we build to a thing. It's like, you know, and the release of a thing. And it's, well, this thing. And it's like the response. And it's easy to be like, well, that's going to make you happy. Yeah. But it's not.

It's like, you know, it's the totality of life and the people in it that can make you happy. That's how I feel about you. Right. Can I ask you a yearning question? Yes. Who do you feel are like, this is not a plan question. But like, what is the epitome of urine for you? Like film, television, storytelling wise.

Who's our best yearner? It's our best, like the best yearning story. Sure. Or person who's best at performing yearning? I mean, Brokeback Mountain is like, that's like some of the best hearing. That's a good answer. Ever. Ghost.

Ghost is like, sneakily, like, that's in my letter. box. It's like that. The yearning there is so good, Swayzey, a great yearner. Yeah. When you can't touch the person. Yeah. Devastating. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like the love that cannot be. Bridges of Madison County. This is a tremendous answer for me. That. That yearning is, oh my God. That's like the greatest. High octane yearning. that movie is electric.

That movie is so... When they're in the rain, they're driving at the end. That's like... I'm like, I'll make stuff like that my whole life to be happy. Do you have a favorite... Off the top of your head, like a favorite Mad Men episode

and does it... What are we yearning for in Mad Men? I love the suitcase, obviously. It's great. I always think about... I think it's the strategy. It's in the first half of... half of season, the final season.

It's where Don and Peggy dance. Oh, yeah, sure. But then it ends, but then it ends on that amazing shot of Don, Pete, and Peggy sitting at Burger Chef. Yeah. And it's like, of course, the great madman pullout, which we tried to do at the end of season, or episode two of Chad Powers, that when they're in the, when they're in the basement. Yeah.

And Russ is really sad. I was like, it's the madman pull out. I was like, we got to go further. I was like, they pull into another. room and we're on the stage. They're like, we're going to be on the fucking stage. I was like, you've got to build another room. Trisha all fun, yeah. But, yeah. But it's just that amazing of, because the whole episode is about, you know, there's, you go and you eat with a family or whatever. And it's Don, Pete,

and Peggy as their own little family. And it's they're framed in the window. That's the one that comes to mind because it's just like, I just love. I mean, I just love those characters and it's so amazing. I'm due for a rewatch. Let's do it. Sign me up. Okay.

Twist my arm. Yeah. Let's stick on yearning. Let's stick on romance. Ricky's come up a few times. This is often true when I ask a question, but this time I'm going to concede in it in advance. There's not really a question here.

Just going to work through something in real time with you. Perfect. Okay. So Ricky and Chad slash Russ. I have really, really, really loved watching their relationship and have found myself, like, I was having one of those physical experiences in the closing scene of the season two finale where you realize you're like actually, I shouldn't lean away from the mic. It's the Fleabag season two, yearning.

Oh, that's, by the way, yearning. That's what I call it. That's the yearnary. Let's get a fox into Chad Powers at some point. We had that homily read at my wedding. Oh, my God. It was so brilliant. Amazing.

Flea bag season two. It's Andrew Scott season. Elsinore, get ready. It always is. It'll pass. It's always after Scott's season. Okay, so like, we know that there are problems, right?

We know that it's bad. We're women watching this show, and there's a part of my mind that's just like, Ricky is going to be held to a certain standard here as a woman in sports, and that's, like, not something I can stop thinking about as I'm watching it, right? Also, Ricky is a coach,

and Chad, despite secretly being a 30-year-old named Ross, is her player, right? So all of that's there. To me, the key is that the show is hyper-conscious of all of that and the characters engage with that. There's no disconnect between the show and us as viewers, right? The characters are like, what do we do about all of these variables that are very present in our lives because we like want to fuck each other?

We're falling in love with each other. And you're just so swept up and watching that. And when Russ finally says at the end, like, can I say something? I love you. And then they kiss. It's just like magical and all of the parts of your brain that are running through the reasons why it's not something that's like wise, just cease to matter. And so I find myself incredibly invested in their romantic relationship while very concerned about what that means for them as characters. You have the obvious additional delicious elements of Ricky's dad, you know, the door opening at the end there.

the fact that like Ricky has made this decision, go Orange, to go to Q's. But then we have Jay and his like, you know, guiding puppeteering hand there so I don't trust it because fuck that guy. He's the threat to Ricky and Chad, right? And then we have Coach Hudson saying, I'm going to step away and here's how it's going to go. Ricky QB coach. And there's a part of me that's like, I want them to be together. And then there's a part of me that's like, season three, sheenie. to be in Syracuse or somewhere else, and then they meet up, like, oh, let's do the heated

rivalry. It's okay to fuck at the All-Star game. Get them at the Heisman ceremony. You know, moments like that where there's like a way to make it possible when it shouldn't be. Incredible yearn also in heated rivalry. No question. Yeah, that's a good one.

Audiences want yearning. They're just getting it on TV right now. Yeah. And so that's why it's like blowing up. So which of those variables, all of which are present, is like most dominant, right? the desire for them to be together, certainly. Well, I mean, first off, I guess maybe I'll answer that question without an answer. Great, because it wasn't a question.

Perfect. I'll answer that non-question with a non-answered. The conversation about she, you know, just how complicated it, that it's like, forget the fact that he's a guy in a mask and that he slept with her dad's wife. That's right. Shout to Wendy. Yeah, it's like, forget. You didn't even mention that in your laundry list of reasons this is fucked up. You didn't know.

But that she is his coach and she is a woman in sports. We, you know, we talked about that in the writer's room. And we were like, do we go there? And I kept having this intense feeling of we have to. It's like, it's there. And so we were like, how do we make? make sure we go there and we don't sell her out. And we're like, we just have to play it out realistically.

Like, it's just in the tragedy of that scene and when all that happens, is she is put in this situation where in order to keep up the lie, she has to just let her dad think that she has been letting something romantic go. So it's like that is preferable to the awful. truth and it was that's that's great that to me that's delicious and that's that's kind of the the name of the game with the show I've talked about it plenty like that it's trying to do what they did in Breaking Bad which is just like if there's a problem that seems impossible for us to get out of yeah in the in the writer's room the gun on the truck I'm like we have to do it yeah

like that whenever we're like we can't do that because that's impossible, it's always like, that's what we have to do. Because then you've got the audience in freefall and they're not ahead of you. That's what I've loved most about it, other than the fact that they just have wonderful chemistry and it's very compelling to watch. I feel complicit in a good way. Like, I want the thing they want and I know the path to that is not clean. Yeah.

Even though this is a Michael Waldron interview, I have a Mallory Rubin question, which is how did a horny prosthetic rate on your scale of like one to ten of horniness on screen. Thanks for asking. Yeah, you're welcome. So when we think about

taking somebody's clothes off, if that person were wearing a home coach prosthetic mask, you would start there. It's funny because I did actually think, do I want their first kiss to be with the mask on or off?

And I was very tortured about it. I'm like, I think rip it off right away, but I was glad that didn't happen. We have kind of the like Chad into Russ emerging from the cocoon. I don't know if I should do this while we're talking about. I was like, you know, there's like a major reset

when we tear that on his face. So when we were shooting that, we really just got like two bites of the apple. And it was like, we were going to do it one time in a close up and one time in our like two shot. And so it's like we do several takes where it doesn't rip. And then finally, and then I was going to call, I'm tucked away in a corner calling face. And it was like time for her to do it.

Very sexy. But in the one that's in the one that's in the show. In the one that's in the show, Perry just, she just did it. She like jumped the gun and did it. And I think that that it feels like there wasn't like a pervert in the corner of being like, being like, here's what to do. You can't schedule the year. Yeah. But they're, I mean, yeah, it's amazing.

I really love that moment. It was very thematically like, okay, she fell in love with Chad initially, but it is like working to Russ. And also it was hot. Just worked across the board. I was trying to remember what, I'm just going to keep circling back to yearning. I was trying to remember what show it was that really unlocked the you can't touch yearning and it's pushing daisies of course.

Right? Wow. Do you realize pushing daisies? No. They, I mean, you. Anaprio L. Leapace. You would love.

They're deeply in love. They literally cannot touch. And so what are the solutions around? Because one of them will die. Those are the stakes. Right. Those are the ram rapists involved in the solution. It's rogue.

It's rogued. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you mentioned Rick and Morty. You mentioned community. You mentioned he, We've talked about Loki.

Across all of these TV experiences you've had, what do you feel like is, was the most instructive to you on this is how I want to watch, how I want to run a show? I mean, probably heels just because it was my first, and it was the one where I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, I was like 29 maybe and running that writer's room

with a bunch of brilliant writers and had no, clue how to do it and had to really like fumble my way through it and wrote the season show kind of got put on a shelf and that's i went back to rick and morty as a writer and a producer and then then got the loki job and then when i got loki i was like okay i'm gonna learn from all my mistake you know just just all of the like not not having a strong enough point of view on things And so I think Heels is the most instructive just because it was the first, and I was an idiot. But that's, you know, now it's like you,

you know, what you realize is that these things, they need somebody at the top, you know, and everybody wants it, they want it to be your vision. You know, that's your job. Anything else you want to ask? Do you want to craft one perfected dobsday question that Michael Waldron might actually answer? Tell us everything about Doomsday.

Leave nothing out. Fade in. There's an animated graphic of the Marvel look. Have you seen this? Oh, the sound of pages slipping, maybe? That's great. For anyone who's listening to this or watching this, who wants to get into making television,

what's your one piece of advice? Watch Madman. watch find things that you love find the show I mean it could just stop there just I was hoping that's what you would say I feel like the Michael Waldron answer is watch things yeah yeah it's watch things and then read them if it's not madman if there's a show you like more fine Chad Powers or heels or Loki but but find a show that you love that the pilot script is available online. And download that script,

watch the pilot, read the script, watch the pilot read the script, understand, you know, this is just from like, how do you start writing TV, but understand how something, you know, makes it, because, you know, there's, the Game of Thrones pilot was just pages.

Yeah. You know, it's like that's all these things are and anybody can write something. That they completely reach on. That's right. Yes, yeah. And I'm not for a half a day. So, so yeah, that's, you know, watch Mad Men or watch Chad.

If you watch Chad Powers, really everything. It's the same as watching Mad Men. Yeah, it's honestly very similar texts. Same, same. Ultimately. Yeah, excellent. Mike Waldron, thank you so much. Thank you all for having me.

What a treat. Yeah, what a treat. Yeah, what a try. Go dogs. Go fish. Go fish.