The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Clipped’ Episodes 3-4: The Tales of the Tape

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre lace up and hit the hardwood to recap the third and fourth episodes of ‘Clipped.’ They start by unpacking Episode 3, “Let the Games Began” and the contrast between the show’s heavy themes of race and power and its absurd moment-to-moment character depictions (2:01). Next, they break down the series of flashback sequences in Episode 4, “Winning Ugly,” and discuss whether or not going back in time worked at this point in the series (17:28). Later, they hand out their award for Most Uncanny Valley Moment (41:06). Hosts: Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D. concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Van Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman, and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

Poo! We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then, on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to the Prestige TV podcast.

I am Rob Mahoney, and I'm joined today by the next U.S. president, Wazni Lambray, aka Big Was. Was, what's up? I'm good, man. You know, I was just on Amazon looking for masks for sex parties. But good enough, I got my notes down. I watched both episodes freshly this morning. I'm ready to go.

Do you have a go-to mask for that occasion? You don't seem like a rabbit guy. No, no, no, no. I'm not a rabbit, but I like the one. I just need half the face covered. You know what I mean? I don't need to go full eyes wide shut for my sex parties, but half the face, just to be in theme.

But also, you want people to know who you are at the same time. It's true. There's a dance there. But yeah, you're right. Like half fits the occasion. Full, we're getting into something, a full sequined mask. We're getting into something different. Yeah.

We got a pair of really interesting episodes today, was. You know, we got Let the Games Began, a very serious drama about the uncovering of what's on the Donald Sterling tapes by most of the clippers, and I would say in particular, like, docks, like, reckoning with what he should do and what the team should do in this situation.

And then we get this kind of unspooling of flashbacks in episode four for all of our primary characters. But let's start with the tapes because I feel like this is a more straightforward story. This is almost like a Wikipedia-style reimagining of the events of this time. What was your taking your feel on episode three and kind of the way the team meeting

and the internal strife and the turmoil within the Clippers was shown here? I think it's a decent enough portrayal about the role of black prominent people in being essentially race leaders. That's what it comes down to, where the likes of Big Baby Davis can one day find himself in the role of being a mega Evers,

essentially, right, at the drop of the hat, because of his race and his proximity to prominence, power, fame, fortune, etc. And the responsibilities that we confer onto black celebrities, no matter who they fucking are, like literally, Big Baby Davis and D'Are Jordan can feel like they're being thrust into a role of race leader, right? Of leader in the black, quote-unquote community.

And, like, I get it. People, like, are annoyed by the actual casting of the show and, you know, some of the portrayals of things that have gone on. But I think that that's a genuine quality of the show. that it's even trying to wrestle with that truth. Because even within the conversation that's happening in the locker room, the Matt Barnes character is like, who the fuck died and made you a freedom fighter?

Like, this is insane. We hope for a living. Like, I love that the show is actually having that conversation because it's a conversation that a lot of my black cohorts have, you know, like, whatever. I'm in the black, fucking bourgeoisie, white collar worker, you know, whatever. Like, I'm not some, you know, down in the dumps black person. But oftentimes the people who are in the best position to speak to the needs of people who they no longer identify in terms of their material realities are people who not live in it.

Yeah. Right. And people who don't actually have no skin in the game for real. Right. And so I just thought that conversation was fascinating for that reason. I think there's a way to look at it like, you're black and you're in a position to help. You need to do what you can to help. And I'm like, I don't know about that.

Yeah, there is an audacity to even trying to tackle issues that are that large and these philosophical conversations that are tough to wrangle no matter how many episodes you would have, no matter how much time you would have. That's a conversation worth having and a really big one. And I think there's such a funny contrast in the show between these lofty, high-minded ideas of who, like, who needs to be an activist and when, and when do you need to meet your moment in that particular regard,

especially as a black athlete in this case. And yet, there's also the fact that we're just a couple episodes into this very brief show. And the one thing we know about DeAndre Jordan before he wants to protest this game is that he loves his lizard. And so I'm kind of stuck on those things where the conversation is worth having. And I think just in some respects,

in these scenes. I actually really liked this kind of locker room debate. It felt true to NBA life to me in terms of how these guys talk about some of the responsibilities that they had then. And even in some respects, had much later, you know, in 2020, for example, a lot of guys felt compelled to speak out about all kinds of race and social issues. But this was a time when everything was zoomed in and focused on the Clippers. And I think we got a good sense of the pressure cooker that these specific guys were in.

And the incredible media frenzy around the team. waiting to see how they would respond to what was on the tapes. And so from that perspective, I thought it captured something pretty real. Yeah, and it also just captures the impossible, the impossibility of the situation as a player, where one, as players, you guys are, you guys get to be partners in a 450-person split of responsibilities, which, again, because the population of the players is so much more vast and legitimately diverse in the sense of, it's not just that you have white guys,

you have white guys from Latvia and Iowa and Indiana within your cohort, right? It's not just that you have black guys. You have black guys from Louisiana and the Congo within your cohort, right? And so the diversity of that body trying to form a consensus, even as you can see on a team of 12 to 15 guys, and you think about what an overall player body would want to do. And you compare that to Donald Sterling is just the controlling owner of the freaking Clippers. And he has 29 other peers who, let's face it,

their backgrounds are way less diverse, okay, in terms of, of where they came from, their, you know, material realities, like they're like a lot more united. They have more in common in a lot of ways. And so I think that also plays into it where Chris Paul is like, yo, I need my ring.

You know, it's the characterizations of the players in the show have been very interesting. We talked last time about, you know, in any kind of consolidated episode space, you have to refine people down to kind of what their core essence is to make them really recognizable

to us really quick. so that everyone knows, okay, this is what this guy is about. And there's something about the portrayal of all these guys that's a little overly simplistic in that way, but that makes them identifiable. And in this case, the idea that the resonant Chris Paul message in this moment is, I want to fight for the thing that matters to me. I want to fight for the thing that I've been fighting for my whole career and really my whole basketball life. I'll say, I'm kind of surprised that that's the portrayal of Chris that we get,

not because it's not true, but because so often with these sorts of stories when they're told and retold, they get sanded down on their rougher edges guys get glorified. Everything is like a little more speechified than it might have been in real life. But here you have kind of the unvarnished Chris Paul as a competitor wanting to fight for the thing that's important to him.

You know, Chris Paul is somebody's career I paid pretty close attention to actually both on and off the court because he spent so much time in L.A. He's got like some decent amount of roots here. And, you know, like I know some people that are involved in some of the things that he's done or whatever. Like, I happen to know that Chris Paul is a pretty socially conscious dude.

Chris Paul is also, like, a pretty social dude. Like, he's not some psycho. All I do is basketball. All I care about is this and nothing else. Like, he's a pretty well-rounded individual. And, like... Also, maybe more meticulous than OCD. which I think is how he's shown in this show.

So there's just two sides to being a Chris Paul watcher. There is the insanely competitive dude on the court, yelling at his teammates, sometimes acting like a little drill sergeant, a little Napoleon, punching guys in the freaking nuts, opponents in the nuts, more than once, more than one opponent. You know, like this is not an anomaly.

But then there's the guy like, who off the court is the model NBA citizen. Yeah. Like a genuine professional. Genuine professional. Ask anybody that's worked with and around Chris. The guy has a sterling reputation. So you always have to keep two minds about Chris Paul,

which I think makes him a semi-facinating figure. But, you know, I thought, you know, the Chris Paul thing was whatever. It's just like it's a guy in a moment like, bro, Like, we've worked our whole lives for this shit. And, like, the fact that we should quit what we're trying to do because Donald Sterling, he's a complete psychopath. I kind of, I get where everybody was coming from in the scene. Yeah. I think the most fascinating note to me is Doc and his role as essentially the CEO of the basketball team as head coach.

And Doc being a black man himself. But again, Doc Scott Scott Scott. a more complicated role because he's quasi-management more so than he is labor here. Yes. Right? And so he's got a weird role to massage here. And another thing that I don't know if this is going to come up on the show, but I think it's important for our listeners to know about Doc Rivers specifically

is that when he was at Marquette, there was a huge sort of racialized uppercut. uprising around a prominent Hooper that he was Chicago guy dating a white woman on that campus. That fucking happened to Doc when he was 20. You know what I mean? This was a huge deal on that Marquette campus. So, like, Doc is, like, experienced, like, racialized controversies from the beginning of his career. So this is the guy that's getting placed in that moment. And I thought their portrayal of Doc

and how he's sort of trying to manage it. I was fascinated by that too. And we get at that kind of up close and personal in episode four in terms of placing him in L.A. around the time of the Rodney King verdict. But you're right. This is a guy who's been front and center involved in a lot of moments of like pretty overt racism

or these sorts of like responses to it. And that's why he is in a weird spot to be the person in charge in a lot of ways because you're right, he's in a precarious position between the players, between Donald Sterling. He has to accommodate a lot of different parties in this particular moment while also being true to himself

and what he wants to do. But in real life, in the real life version of this story, yes, Doc is in a position of relative power, but he also kind of seized a vacuum within the Clippers, where other teams, other organizations, more organized power structures, yes, to what you were saying earlier, there are lots of NBA owners

and NBA governors who have said and done terrible things, some of which are kind of very public and some of which are not. But with the Clipper situation in particular, Doc stepped up into that spotlight and really did organize and lead these guys and put people in rooms. And I think you get a sense of what Doc's superpower is,

which is maybe not always winning, must win playoff games, but it's getting people in the room and keeping them in the room until they settle something. And he is quite good at that. And in this particular moment of NBA history, that was exactly what the Clippers needed.

Doc could do the thing, of putting, look, we're not completely like shaking, shaken by this thing, but we're taking it serious. Like, there's a balance there of, yo, this is a team in crisis. We're cooked. Like, it's easy. Like, you could imagine a coach coming out to a press conference, sweating profusely, you know, stammering through his prepared response,

and just looking like, holy moly, this moment might be too big. But you could also imagine a guy. coming out and pretending that like nothing serious has happened. Yeah. And being able to be the public face that expertly straddles that line is a specific Doc River skill. Yes. I don't think that's, I think that's inarguable.

Whatever you may think about is coaching, like doing that job, managing a media situation in a shitstorm. Yeah, Doc was ready for that. He was ready for that. And the particulars of that tone, you're spot on, are so hard to capture. of this is serious, but also we're handling it. And I'm coming to this from a position of poise and balance and we're going to treat these things with the seriousness they deserve.

Does Clip the show do that? I don't quite know. If this is your definitive text on what happened with Donald Sterling, it probably leaves a little bit to be desired. And to be honest, I don't know how you're feeling about it at this stage was. We're now two-thirds of the way through the show. I'm kind of enjoying more of the soapy elements than I am the like very serious like discussion of these issues and this story, which even when they're

well-intentioned and I think generally true to life, can be a little bit blunt. Yeah, I think the soapy elements enhance my experience of the serious stuff because big baby Davis in that interview, in that little powwow where they're discussing what to do, use the word existential. At one point Adam Silver says that Donald Sterling is a crack. a toa of shameful bullshit. Is that a sentence that any human has ever used before? Also, the guy playing Adam Silver is jacked and looks like he would kick somebody's ass in real life. Adams, a lot of things, physically imposing, is not one of them.

I don't think the dramatic parts can be as great as, you know, maybe intended or wanted to, because we're just not dealing with the best dramatic actors in the world here. No. Like, this is not Daniel Day Lewis here playing JJ Redding. Let's just say that. Like, this is not in the name of the father. Okay, we can just, we can just accept that to be the case and understand that, like, dramatically,

it's going to be difficult to actually deliver on some of the stakes, particularly the racialized ones in this show. But again, thematically, I'm all in on a conversation about the black elites role in quote-unquote activism and quote-unquote leadership. Yes. In terms of race relations in America in 2014, much less 2024, right? Like, what is a black executive's role within a structure that pretty much only has to go one way? because it's essentially a dictatorship. What is that person's role in that structure

when the owner gets sued for racialized discrimination in his housing practices? We get the flip side of that, too, in episode four when we zoom in on Elgin Baylor and his time with the Clippers, too. Right. A clear parallel to where Doc is in a lot of ways didn't have the same kind of like flashbulb spotlit moment

to respond to the way that Doc did, but dealt with all of this bullshit for an incredibly long time and basically had his career torpedoed as a result of it, it's an incredibly fickle place to be, as specifically a black executive at that time in the NBA, and as he puts it in episode four, the fact that if you even work for the clippers for a period of time, where else can you go?

Because of the tarnishing that it will do to your reputation by having to play by their rules and their penny pinching and the fact that you're trying to make the team better and make the most of that job, whether your doc or Elgin. And yet there's all of these things standing in your way. That was, you know, the flashback, like, again, the flashbacks didn't bother me. I think they felt like they had to get Elgin Baylor's voice into this story. Because, again, he was there for 25 years, dude.

Like, that's a long-ass time, right? That's essentially, since Donald Sterling took over, he was there. I thought that was important. And I thought, like, again, the show is trying its best to convey the just acidic level of toxicity of everything Donald Sterling touched. It just turns into, oaf, the Elgin situation, I thought was illustrative of that, right? I think, again, the Elgin character serves to be like, yo, like, what is the role of one. black man in an institution. Maybe at the end he can go

kamikaze and sue and air out the dirty laundry. But you either do the job or you get fired. Yeah. Like this idea that you change the institution from within, that's not a thing. You go up there,

you do what they pay you to do or you don't and you're gone. And so you know, I think the elgin part where he's like, look, you know, what, fuck that. I'm going to finally let people know the truth. Again, this is after he's on his way out because you can't do that while you're there. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription

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And I want to get into all the flashback. because that really is the structure of episode four is a series of flashbacks for mostly our main characters and then Elgin Baylor to kind of give an institutional perspective within the Clippers. But yeah, Andy Roser's conversation

with Elgin in that office that quickly sidetracks into, as you're saying, like an interrogation of the institutions of power in America and who gets to own an NBA team in the first place is definitely like a bigger and broader concept than I think a lot of people

might be expecting from a show like clipped. And I want to give them due credit for that, because these are conversations that are interesting and that do really define the NBA even now. Again, I'm like talking out of both sides of my mouth about it, because if we want to get ahead to some of our categories for this week, like, isolating a player of the game for these episodes was, I thought Clifton Davis as Elgin Baylor was awesome. He gave him a lot of dignity and gravitas for sure. Completely. And that's exactly what that character, like what that, who Elgin is and what that character needs.

There's not a lot of subtext to Elgin Baylor's big speeches. It is very much, like, I'm going to, like, speak very on the nose to these ideas and to these concepts. But sometimes that shit just works if you do that. Yeah. And again, people might roll their eyes, but I think this show, like, thematically is tackling a lot of elements of stuff that interests me. Like, the class element of Vista Viano, like, what she's trying to do to get out of

of the muck of her station in life and the barriers to entry of, you know, a more stratified class reality. Like, that kind of stuff speaks to me and the things that I'm interested in. And yes, the scene in the kitchen when she pulls the knife on the dude,

it's not exquisitely done. I wouldn't describe it as that. But again, the theme is something that still speaks to me. Like, it's a tale as old this time, like somebody trying to climb out of their situation by any means possible. What to you, was, is the bigger red flag? Is it playfully brushing a knife against your neck or is it stealing your tooth afterwards?

That lady leaving a house party with a spare veneer unhinged. It's a different kind of trophy hunting, my friend. I just, I don't know. But that makes me think that that might have actually happened. I can see it. Because all of the crazier shit. in this show, most of the craziest stuff are cribbed from actual reality.

The petting of the turtle on her lawn, actual reality. The deposition... We got to see NBA history recreated. He's just talking about getting blow jobs in a limousine and blah, blah, blah. Like, he's going on and on about the pet names and the this and of that and they're sucking me

and they can't help it. And the guy deposing himself, sir, I was asking you about your handwriting. Just a legendary screenshot from that deposition. Oh, I'm so glad we got it. That actually happened in real life, guys. And this man was the owner of an NBA team for damnly 30 years. Yeah, and 11 years after that deposition, we should say.

I do think these episodes do a good job of pointing the finger at David Stern a little bit, something which I feel we do less and less in our, NBA world today was. There's so much with the NBA going on right now where people are very romantic about the Stern era and about, oh, he did all these things that the current commissioner Adam Silver wouldn't or doesn't. And I'm myself, I'm guilty of that all the time. And there's obviously they have their strengths and weaknesses in that job.

But two of the glaring things that David Stern did are really highlighted in these episodes, one being his relationship with Sterling and the fact that he basically protected him in that job and swept stuff under the rug for a long time to keep him in. in that spot. And also, the NBA dress code, which just looks more and more ridiculous with time. And even in the moment was like, what the fuck is this trying to accomplish, not letting a guy wear a chain? Like, it was so preposterous and yet accepted on its face as like part of doing business

in the increasingly corporatized league. It's a couple of things about this episode, which I think was important. I'm happy there was some accountability for the role of David Stee. and all of this because David Stern did prop this guy up. Yeah, we should say if the tape had come out when David Stern was commissioner, I don't think Sterling gets bounced from the league in the same way. We don't know that he's forced to sell the team. Spoiler alert, if you don't know what happens in this story.

Oh, yeah, if you don't know what happens in the series, Donald Sterling doesn't end up keeping his team. David Stern propped this guy up. David Stern was well aware of the lawsuits. against this guy in his actual business dealings, as it concerns his properties and what he was doing, the tenants racially biased against them, slum-lording, which, again, to me, Rob, is the ultimate,

I guess, resignation for me with this show about our actual society and that, like, the thing that gets him fired is that he didn't want his girlfriend to go to his arena with a black date. And really only because Magic Johnson was involved. Right. And not the fact that this guy was just doing disgusting practices as a landlord. You know, having people live in borderline squalor, keeping people out of decent housing because of the color of their skin. Like, these are things that have real life impacts on people.

Like, on people who don't have the protections. that Magic Johnson have or that NBA players have quite frankly and the fact that the injustices to I'm sorry man a quite coddled protected

shielded class of minority or black person that you know in service of their protection Donald Sterling could be dealt with but people low on a totem pole man like when you get screwed by these

fucking elites nobody's coming to save you, bro. That was the kind of the saddest irony of all it. And so, like, that's what I think about with David Stern. But I will say this about David Stern because I am one of those people who falls into David Stern nostalgia, Rob. One, I was completely outraged by the dress code at the time. As I'm 37 years old now, I have a little bit more sympathy for the idea that, like, yo, we're trying to sell a product to a highly racialized country. and if we could like get them to not think of these guys as fucking black guys,

you know, in their affect, you know, because of how our guys are presenting themselves, that might be cool. And it's going to be cool for everybody who's participating in this league in terms of the financial riches. I have a sympathy for that point of view, particularly because of the NBA itself, always, always, always dealing with some fucking idea. of perception. Yeah. Like, it's always central to the selling of this game,

whether it's when Stern takes over in the 80s, where it's like the NBA is the quote-unquote cocaine league. It's a bunch of black guys that are doing too much on drugs, you know? Then, of course, the 90s come. We're out of the Jordan error because Jordan has this, you know, it's like we'll never see a public image. as pristine, just beautiful, well-crafted, calibrated. Crafted is the key word, pathologized in that way.

Just the perfect public image, and they got to ride that wave. And as soon as he's gone, what do we got? These hip-hop guys with the way that they're dressing, they're smoking all the weed, the chains and the blah, blah, blah, the hip-hop generation. And again, this is like now hip-hop is just a mainstream American. product, right? It's just what it is. It's just another cultural product that we have that we sell here and all across the

world. But in 2002, 2003, we were not quite there yet with hip hop and rap and all of that stuff. And Stern had to figure out a way to sell what people considered his black-ass league to a white-ass audience. Like, I have sympathies for that reality. I'm not saying he always did that shit with a delicate touch. sometimes it was nasty. I think the dress code was kind of heavy-handed.

It was not kind of. It was heavy-handed. It was a bit too much. But, you know, I'm able to understand that stuff, the ideas behind the stuff. What's harder to reconcile again, Rob, is the Sterling stuff. It's just harder to reconcile. And also, I think what doesn't get said enough

is the fellow owners. This is their idea, too. And part of it is like this guy's always losing. So he's not actually a competition. And like, why would we want to punish ourselves for anything that we do? We want to remain untouchable forever. So it's like they had a vested interest in propping him up as well. And you get archival footage from a Mark Cuban interview in 2014, talking about that very thing. The quote unquote slippery slope of putting owners on tape and exposing what they've said behind closed doors. By the way, Mark Cuban's franchise, the culture around

that shit was fucking horrific. awful. Terrible culture. He ran one of the worst cultures in the NBA. Bar none. That that guy. That slippery slope involved a lot of sexual harassment in the workplace

workplace conditions that were hugely problematic for a lot of different reasons. But you're right. None of these guys in the NBA's governing class want themselves exposed in the way that Sterling did. And that's why he was protected for so long. But I want to get to the other side of this spectrum, too. We've rushed on V's

role in these episodes. but she, I mean, she just takes over those moments, whether it's with the pet turtle, whether it's coming to this party, whether it's kind of really her embodying that role as an L.A. striver that you identified in our last pod was. So I want to fact check this statement with you

from her friend, which is, if you want to make things happen in this town, find the people who can make things happen and make an impression. How do you feel about that sentiment? Is that how you move and shake around here? I mean, not me personally, because, you know,

fortunately for me and my career, you know, we're well situated to have our careers flourish in our business, right? Rob, like, we do know the right people. We can make a phone call. If something went wrong, God forbid, oh, maybe I could do something else, or maybe I could try this, or we have the freedom in the room to be pretty successful in our careers. Now, let's just say we were some fledgling bloggers, you know, And we had just moved to L.A. And we were trying to break into this industry. Whether it be on TV, podcasting, radio, whatever, that's the advice that you would get.

But, I was a fledgling blogger. And you were a guy just popping up on a video podcast, effectively, at that point. Absolutely. And we climbed our way to the top without so much as a sanctuary party. Yes, I didn't have to give any hand jobs in the process. But thankfully, this is sports media. Slightly different world. Slightly different world than the one V. Stiviano was trying to break into.

But yeah, man, I think that statement is almost too true, honestly. And I'm social enough out here. And the people that I've come in contact with are a diverse set of, you know, say a guy who is the VP of A&R at Interscope Records, a universal property. Right? Like, when you talk about major label, it doesn't get much bigger than that. And I've seen how wary those types have to be when they move around in the general public. Like, they have to be careful about telling people who they are and what they do for living. Because there are these people that will try to glom onto you.

I've literally seen it. The people in this city who are in are deeply aware of how. how in they are, and when they meet people, they can very easily size them up in terms of how out those people are. Yes. And that relationship is constantly being negotiated in the city in a way that makes sense to me

as I'm watching this sex party unfold. Straight up. Yeah. And for V, in some ways, a sex party that, true to the rest of this story, or at least the way it's being portrayed and the way it's been told publicly,

is not really a sex story for her. Like she is selling a sexual appeal, but by her account, in most accounts, didn't actually engage, like, didn't have a sexual relationship with Donald Sterling explicitly, wasn't participating in this particular party in that exact way, but is learning how to glom on in the way you're describing. And I thought it was probably the most effective of the flashbacks from that perspective. You know, some of these, like the Elgin one is strictly backstory that viewers probably need for what the clippers have been. and the fact that this isn't an isolated incident, but a long-running theme of this franchise. But in terms of getting to know the characters through flashback,

and to have a whole episode that is basically freeze frame, I bet you're wondering how I got myself into this crazy situation, I thought the V version of that, of figuring out like her kind of superhero, super villain origin of this is how she figured out how to be this person. Like her perception of how to work herself into this world

and attach herself to powerful people, this is kind of where that came from. Let me give you guys an example of how this might work in a different profession, right? But just, it's the same idea. Let's just say you're a wardrobe consultant, image consultant, stylist,

whatever they're calling themselves these days. And you meet Deuce McBride at a party. And he likes the way you dress. Shout out to Deuce McBride. Current Nick's legend, Deuce McBride, for those who aren't totally clued in on the Knicks bench rotation.

But in terms of salary on the Knicks, he's close to the bottom. Making good money. Making good NBA money. Making good NBA money. But you get close enough to Deuce McBride to now. He's like, y'all, I like those sneakers.

I like those jeans. You think you can help me get dressed? Man, I'm trying to get right. Like, I'm becoming more of a public figure, blah, blah, blah. Like, people are paying attention to me. People are noticing me out in the street when I'm out eating or when I'm out at a bar.

Like, yo, man, I like, Like, you just happen to get next to Deuce McBride. Mind you, when you're just getting started out, like you can't get next to LeBron James. But you can't get next to Deuce McBride. And now you're in with Deuce McBride. And now people are starting to notice, like, yo, Deuce McBride is looking better.

Like, I'm feeling what Deuce McBride is doing. That, damn. Duce, yo, who's doing that for you? Because you wasn't looking like that before. Yo, this guy, blah, blah, blah. Yo, Josh Hart's like, I want him to start doing that for me now. And now you're still doing Duce, but now you've stepped it up. You're doing Josh Hart now.

Again, not LeBron. Nope. You know, not Jason Tatum. No, you know, like not the top of the top. But damn, you're doing Josh Hart now. Josh Hart gets traded. You know? Now Josh Hart is playing with Carl Anthony Towns.

Carl Anthony Towns Now you're Josh Hart got you in parties Got you in this Got you in the proximity Of these people Because let's face it again Duce McBride

Probably not going to be at a party With LeBron James But Josh Hart He's on ESPN now He's our podcasting peer You know that's really made it He's doing pods like Josh Hart is getting you closer

To the top And you're every step of the way You're constantly trying to make those connections That's how it goes goes in this town. When you were just trying to claw your way to the top, you have to start somewhere. And I thought the Vista Viano sort of origin story, if you will, I just thought that was dope. Yeah, I think the more that you dip into that world was, I mean, the NBA world specifically, when you think about agents, and the host of this party is a sports agent,

when you think about marketing managers, when you think about stylists, like you're describing, they all have different jobs, but they're all in the same business, and that business is climbing. And it all works that way. You start with the lower level clients, you work your way up, and then all of a sudden that word of mouth is kind of connecting you with different people. And V is in that game, even though she doesn't have an explicit job in that world. But she's trying to figure out how to maneuver it. And I think over the course of this episode, we have a better sense than ever of how this fundamentally strange person does have something to offer people. And she lays it out pretty clearly to this agent saying, you know, I can be the person who shows up with you to a client dinner and I'm not going to judge you.

I know what this is. I'm in it for my own reasons. But it clearly has a place to occupy and has a service to provide that is not what you may think, but it's something that's valuable to these ultra-rich and incredibly powerful people. She very effectively presented a case for herself. And it could be compelling. And again, it's a certain type of guy, right? It's an older person. Yes, he has money.

Yes, he's proximate to power and wealth. But yeah, it's an older guy. He's not a particularly, let's face it, handsome guy. But, you know, these guys, they still need a confidence boost, even as they are, you know, in power positions and are in the vicinity of even greater power all the time. Right. And the fact that she could so effectively make the case for what she would be adding,

to this man's situation in life, I thought that was effective too. The one piece of this puzzle of these two episodes we haven't really touched on yet was, and I would say this is purposeful, is the Shelley Sterling side of this plot? I mean, I'm not saying she's the least sympathetic figure among this group of people,

because clearly Donald is going to absorb a lot of that. He's a reprehensible guy, he's done terrible things. The kind of like image cleansing that Shelley is getting, in this story where she gets to be the person who like tearfully watches deposition tapes and gets to say to Donald's face, like laugh in his face and yell at him in a restaurant. I'm not having a great time with that part of the story. You know what's so funny, man.

I don't have a problem with Shelley Stern being humanized because I thought very subtly the line where she says, you see, that relationship was transactional. Yes. Like for me, she could have damn near been talking about it. herself. Definitely. And so for me, it's like, yeah, like you endured some legitimately harsh human indignities. At the same time, lady, come on, man. You did it because it came with all of these goodies. We know it. We see it. Like, we know why you endured it. It wasn't because you had this

endless well and reserve of love in your heart. for Donald T. Sterling is because you knew the goodies, you knew that there were rewards to these indignities and this embarrassment. You knew that you could be made whole by gritting your teeth and bearing it. And so, nah, like, I don't feel sympathetic for her,

but I also don't have a problem with displaying her humanity. Like, I'm not against it. And the irony of the characterization you're describing is not lost on me, too, that she is judging V for the exact things that she's ultimately guilty of too. It's hilarious. It's almost less that performance

and the lines that come out of Shelley's mouth on the show than Doc saying, you know, oh, this is so awful for her too, she didn't do anything wrong. She's pretty complicit in a lot of the lawsuits that led the Sterling to this place in the first place. She didn't do anything wrong as nuts. That's what I'm saying.

I think we can ease up a little bit on that to dip into our other category for the uncanny valley of this episode was the kind of weirdest depiction or the biggest creative liberty taken. I have big questions about the rewind kind of function that we

have set in up these flashbacks. Not even the younger doc, but we get we start kind of in present tense and then we get a visual rewind through history of some relevant flashpoints, culturally speaking. And in a couple of these cases land on what I'm assuming are supposed to be like analog figures for the characters in our story.

For example, for Vista Vianno's flashback, it rewinds to Omarosa. Or kind of sets up this Omarosa parallel, like analog that I'm like, okay, as happy as I am to hear friend of the ringer family, Wesley Morris, like his voice booming through, talking about, and from a podcast talking about Omarosa, like, okay, like, I guess I'm along for this ride, like set it up for me. I don't know that we got there. Shelly, it did the same effect, but wound it to Hillary Clinton? I'm like, what are we doing here? That lost me a bit.

I think obviously what V was chasing was, I think she realized she wasn't going to be a Julia Roberts level public person, but she thought she could achieve Amorosa. Like, that was her, like, she was looking for reality casting calls. She said flavor of love. Which was a class. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? Oh my goodness.

Classic television. Like that parallel didn't bother me. Now, Hillary Clinton and Shelley Sterling, I mean, I think. They did. It was. That was on screen. Direct cut Hillary Clinton during the election, I want to say, to Shelley Sterling. Yeah, Hillary Clinton as a figure is a lot more complicated for me.

I actually find her to be a quite detestable figure, honestly, when I just think about some of the shit she's pulled in places like Haiti where my people are from and just some of the shit that she's about in terms of the corporatization of the country, of the world. and just like the power-hungry nature. Like, I find Hillary Clinton to be a more detestable person than Shelley Sterling, quite frankly, because the stakes of the positions that she was in.

I have no judgment as far as that goes, just to say I don't understand the connective tissue. Shelly Sterling managing properties in Korea Town to the former Secretary of State and First Lady. The person who runs the Clinton Foundation and like, ran for president? Like, ah, I don't see it. Choices were made.

Choices were made. But now I want to know what Shelley Sterling thought about Greta Grollwood getting snubbed for the Oscars. You know, like, can we get her on record about that? Yeah, that's an interesting one. One, are we going to talk about Larry Gillard Jr., aka DeAngelo Barksdale? I felt so old. He's playing grandpaws now. Yeah, that's crazy.

That's tough. Why did they age up my man like that? Like, that's crazy. Like, he can't be past his 50s, right? There's no way. He had to be, like, at best in his 30s during the wires. So, like, why is he playing a 78-year-old? Whatever.

But I thought, again, I thought he did a great job. A welcome presence. 93 doc or 92 doc buying his groceries and his clippers warm up. Really? 92 doc wanting to leave Brentwood so he could participate in the L.A. riots? really? I did love him angrily throwing oranges at the hoop in his backyard.

What was going on? What was going on with that? That was weird. But again, even the conversation with his wife, when she's like, yo, chill, fam. Just because I don't want to go break, throw a brick through a store, don't mean that I'm down for what the cops did.

Like, yo, please relax, dude. And again, the, the father-son conversation, I thought it was just like, yo, fam, like, we get it. You're black and you feel deeply offended, but like, what? Like, you really want to turn your back on the life that you've built for yourself here and fucking Brentwood, Los Angeles? Like, really, bro? I thought that was some real talk and a reality check.

And it's not about, quote, unquote, selling out. I think you should definitely do your part, but decided that one dock Rivers, an aging point guard for a team that nobody in this city cares about. is going to, like, I don't know, fix the Rodney King verdict. I find that to be laughable. I almost wish, I understand why it broke out this way and that episode three was pretty much contemporary to the tapes coming out and the aftermath of it.

And episode four was all this backstory. But there's a part of me that would have loved to see the version of that episode that is more doc-focused, and it shows us, like, this Rodney King flashback in conjunction with him trying to lead the Clippers. I know all the seasons of a piece, but as a one episode story, there's something to him reckoning with those ideas

as he did as a player around the Rodney King verdict. And then, as you said, the incredible pressure that these guys feel to be activists and social leaders and community leaders. And he's showing them tape of Jesse Owens and Tommy Smith of John Carlos, this idea that as an athlete, you are pulled into all of these different spaces

and you are always wrestling within yourself as to understanding what it is you're supposed to be beyond just a player. Yeah. And your sense of place, too, like, you're having to consider all these things from your beautiful backyard in Brentwood with your beautiful biracial family provided to you by your white wife. You know, like, these are the kinds of things that obviously I would expect to weigh on somebody who's even, like, remotely conscious of their race and their standing in society. Like, it's only normal to want to ruminate on such things. But, again, somebody like me, I do appreciate the real talk from the dad.

Yes. Like, I really appreciate it. Because, again, like, there's a version of this show where, like, all of the prominent black people are fashioning themselves as freedom fighters, as MLK types, as Malcolm X types. When it's like, I'm sorry, bro, but the government, won't conspire to kill you for kneeling during the national anthem. It's just not true. Your Twitter mentions, though, are going to be on fire.

Now, if NBA players want to go out and organize a broad racial set of poorer people to fight for better wages and housing and healthcare, and they were using their fame and microphone to organize people around making their lives better. And again, this was across the racial spectrum. Yeah, you might get killed for that. You might get killed for that. Back in the days anyway, honestly, I think nowadays they wouldn't kill you.

They just buy you off. Damn. That's really bleak. It's just funny. I don't think they would actually kill a prominent person for trying to do that. They buy you off. They try to like smear your name, like, you know,

oh, this guy's a Philanderer or whatever, they wouldn't actually kill you these days. Or does some of the conversation this episode bring you in the system and effectively mute your impact? That's it. Co-opt you. And like, I think an episode with these guys

just like literally pretended to be the next Martin Luther King by what they were doing via this Clippers game, that would have annoyed me. I'm glad they were actually dissenting voices and like some sober talking about like the actual tangible impact, able to be had by athletes, by doing something like this.

I'm not talking about going back to your hometown and building a school and running drives and putting scholarship funds together. And like, that shit is real. I don't know, man. Like, canceling an NBA game, I don't know what that actually does for, you know, rank and foul, downtrodding people of any race whatsoever. It's a fair question. Within the scope of this show, that's a high stakes thing.

The idea to boycott this game and what that might mean. If you zoom out in history, if you zoom out within our country and our culture, is it really that big a deal to boycott a game or wear a warm-up shirt inside out so it doesn't say clippers. It's not the best. But look, was you and I on this podcast, we solved racism in America. We've tackled geopolitics. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're doing all of it.

We're speaking truth to power. Capitalism. All of the power structures that are relevant to your life. We have tackled them here today on the Prestige TV podcast. Thank you for doing it with me. Thank you to Kai Grady for producing all of our ramblings today. And we're going to see you back in a couple weeks for the finale episodes, five and six of Clips.

We'll catch you then.