The Prestige TV Podcast - Did ‘Girls’ Stick the Landing?

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Andy Greenwald is joined by Amanda Dobbins to discuss “Latching,” the series finale of ‘Girls.’ They start by providing context on the media environment at the time when the HBO comedy series premiered and how it was a bridge between the eras of network television and prestige cable TV (10:57). Along the way, they discuss what the show originally set out to do, the benefits (and drawbacks) of creator Lena Dunham’s unparalleled self-awareness, and how ‘Girls’ ended its six-season run with intent (27:03). Finally, they answer the titular question: “Did it stick the landing?” (77:14). Host: Andy Greenwald Guest: Amanda Dobbins Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Theme Song and Other Music Credits: Giancarlo Vulcano Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Set your Tumblr-era think pieces to stun. This is Stick the Landing, girls. Hello and welcome to another episode of Stick the Landing, a brand new podcast about endings. My name is Andy Greenwald, and I am so excited to be joined today by my good friend, everyone's favorite podcast co-host, co-host of The Big Picture, co-host of Jam Session, Amanda Dobbins. Hi, Andy. Amanda, I'm so happy to be potting with you. I'm thrilled.

Every week we're going to look at a television series and its finale and look at it through the lens of the time past since it aired and maybe reflect back on what it all meant, how we feel about it. And obviously, it was very eager to have you join me. and you suggested today's show, HBO's Girls. Yes. So to pull the curtain back a little bit, if I may, are we allowed to do that on this podcast? It would be weird for a podcast to be confessional anyway, but maybe we could break ground today. The show that you originally suggested, I had never seen. So this was a little bit of necessity in the sense of it's a show that I watched every episode of and finished.

Yeah. Because I tend to be a TV quitter. Yeah. And especially like in this sort of great finale's era that we are, that I assume you're focusing on, I guess it's pretty early. They're either the kind of like Game of Thronesy, how will they resolve all of it, like big world building finale things, which like no one wants to hear from me from. Or there is, I mean, that's kind of it finale wise or there, I guess, like sitcoms or something. There's not that many shows where I committed to all of them, and that we all committed to all of them, but they weren't like big tent shows. Well, Girls Falls in a very, kind of in a unique space because it ran for six seasons.

It started in 2012 and ended in 2017, making, unhonestly astonishing 62 episodes of television, of which you have seen 62. Yes. And it kind of bridges the gap between, especially for half hour. shows or I guess, I mean, this was categorized as a comedy at the Emmys, and it was very funny. But from when comedies would just sort of be, you're hanging out with your friends until you're not. Right. And then at the end, something weird would happen or it wouldn't, but it didn't really take away because there wasn't one single story to this more contemporary era of all shows are telling you a story. And all shows have a, I mean, it gave us the name of this podcast. All shows are

an airplane trip that has to land successfully in order for the journey to have been worth it. I can't imagine that's how anyone started watching girls. And it's interesting to reflect. on the finale to wonder if that's how anyone finished watching it. Right. It is also functionally, the way the show is made is a kind of bridge between those eras, right? And I rewatched, I didn't do an entire series rewatch, but I went back and visited shows from each season. Mallory Rubin set the bar pretty high because she...

I'm not going to compete with Mallory. No, none of us can. But also, that's not as many episodes of TV, right? She did Friday Night Lights? Friday Night Lights was like 70-something. Okay. I don't think we as a people really are ready to graph. with how many episodes of things there were until relatively recently.

How many episodes of the season was Friday Night Lights? It was start. It was 22, 22, then. Shut up. It was because it was one. I remember that. It was an NBC. It was 22 episodes.

I mean, talking about bridging the gaps, that started as a broadcast network show and then ended as a more prestige. Totally. I didn't mean to take away from your accomplishments. Listen, no one's competing with Mallory. That's, you get your finishing flowers here. I had forgotten, first of all, like how great a show it is. And it's a really great show, but it is as a show as a show as,

TV show. Like, it has a lot of the bones of, as you said, shows that we used to watch on network TV, like hanging out with your friends. And there's an A plot, there's a B plot, there's like, are they going to get together, there are some other. And it arcs over a season very beautifully. But it does have a more traditional structure. And as it keeps going, it is trying to engage with like a larger project.

and the larger TV project at the time. But in some ways, it's not totally built for that. So the finale is like an interesting thing because it's trying, I guess, and is maybe remembered, as you noted, as some larger, it's part of this finale's project. But is it even built that way to be sort of like, this is our grand statement,

this is the end of, you know, six years of what we've been building towards, or is it just kind of a flourish on an experience that we all had? I think one of the things that we're going to be talking about as we talk about the finale and the show is the way that Girls as a project was constantly almost at war with itself, where it was an independent filmmaker who was working within a medium that she didn't feel completely comfortable and servicing the medium

in ways that felt true and sometimes in ways that felt more, not forced, but that she was trying to fit in. Right. And the finale is fascinating. for that reason. It is, I'm sure other shows have done this. I always think of it as a breaking bad in the sense that it ends twice.

The show ends essentially in the penultimate episode. Right. Many of the characters do not appear again after that episode. And the actual finale, Latching, which we're going to get to, is, in a sense, one last short film from Lena telling a story

that she was interested in, ending things the way she wanted to end it, but not in the more conventional way. I would argue that it actually ends three times. I love this. Because I don't know if you, and I should have texted you last night to do this, but I rewatched episodes eight, nine, and ten. Oh, so did I. Okay. So, episode eight is what will we do this time about Adam? And it is the last appearance of Adam Driver as Adam. One of the most important creations of the show and one of the most important finds of this show. I mean, it is a real credit to Lena Dunham that she

found Adam Driver, who's become one of the great actors of our generation, and it is lights out amazing on this show. But so that episode ties up the Adam and Hannah story, which is ongoing throughout the show and ties up a lot of the thematic stuff specifically. And I guess we're spoiling, right? We're talking. about the finale of things. So, I mean, I guess we can talk about the fact that Hannah gets pregnant in the last season. It would be incredible if we danced around it. Right, right, right. But so in some ways, the Adam episode, episode eight, like even, it justifies the pregnancy plot line for me because of what it brings in terms of their like imagined life together and then

their realization that it's not going to work out and that this like really needs to be done. time to grow up. And that is like the truest version of it, it's time to grow up, I think, of the three. And then you get the penultimate episode, which is goodbye tour, which is all of the four women screaming each other in a bathroom, which is not being like, I hate all of you. Which is like the true, honest ending of this show as like a group of friends. Yes, because, and we'll get into this, one of the things that always was confounding about the show was, are they friends? Right. What are their relationship to each other? It was very circumstantial. and it was convenient at times.

And I thought it was a very funny and honest snapshot of your earlys, 20s, post-college friends. And the way that a group of women friends grows apart as you grow older and you're, you know, you're growing as a person. You're finding different things. You're becoming different people. And yet groups of women always have this insistence, the Marnie insistence of like, no, we need to heal and be together and have a group of. meeting in this bathroom and it can get really ugly. But like the ugliness and the love are kind of there simultaneously. As Jessa yells at one point to Adam, she's like, I hate her.

And that is why she's my best friend. Yes, there was that in, I would watch this episode where they have their, Adam and Jess have a screaming fight. Absolutely. She's like, obviously, you've never had a friend before. Right, exactly. That, to me, was a great, and like in line with the rest of the show in terms of how the, um, how they wrap up the friend stuff.

That worked. And then, and then you have latching. And then you have the finale, which I think a short film is an interesting way to describe it, because it is kind of closed off. Um, it definitely also feels half baked. Yeah. And to me, the other reason I picked it is because I remembered it vividly and have not watched it since.

Yes, me too. And remember being like, what? And I hadn't examined my thoughts since then. So I was interested to go back. And I had a lot of thoughts. But one of them was like, oh, so did you guys just have like a whole other season sitting on the floor somewhere that you didn't get to make? And then you decided to make this coda or something? Like there is, it is so tacked on in a way.

And it has moments of resolution. And it's there is, I guess, like a larger takeaway in the last shot that I suppose is. related to the rest of the series, though, how it's related. I kind of hate. But it's interesting. Yeah, but it's interesting. I, like, why didn't it stop it episode nine? Well, we can, I want to go back before we end up there, although I do think watching and I rewatch the pilot and rewatch the finale, and there was a lot of intentionality in terms of twinning the two episodes where there's feeding in both. There's Marnie and Hannah in bed together in both. There's, there was some thought about, you know, mirroring it in sort of an interesting way, that at least it wasn't, it may feel tacked on,

but there was thought about giving closure of the whole project. But I want to go back a little bit and sort of set the scene because one of the things that I also feel as part of the conversation is the years that the show was on the air were pretty momentous in terms of how we covered television and also how the culture moves. Yeah. And the show was a lightning rod for so much of it because not only was it right down the middle of, I mean, like an arrow right in the heart of the culture machine, I read my own review of the first few episodes for Grantland, and I was like, well, this is going to strike a chord

because the show is about most of the people who work at New York Magazine's Vulture or other places like that, such as Amanda Dobbins, such as Amanda Dobbins.com and lived in Brooklyn. At one point, I lived quite literally across the street from Lena Dunham. It's perfect. She lived in a much nicer apartment than I did, and she deserves that because she's very accomplished and she had a successful show. But I'm a few years older, but I was in Brooklyn working at New York Magazine and here in Lena as she came and went. So it not only was reflecting the culture that was covering the culture, it also, in a really unique and sometimes confounding way, reacted to the culture in real time.

It is maybe the most online show of all time. not because of necessarily its subject matter, but because you can feel the tweets piling up and then the show pivoting or responding or shrugging them off or taking insult or ignoring. It felt in dialogue in a way that is interesting. But I want to go back a little bit and talk about, kind of try to set the tone for what came after.

So the show premieres in 2012. Lena Dunham had made Tiny Furniture, which had gotten some acclaim on the award circuit and indie film. And then got this television show. And before it premiered and before Nepo Baby became part of our national discourse, the show was already a punching bag for those reasons. Right. And I think some of it had to do with it.

Before it premiered, it got, Elena Dunham was on the cover of New York magazine. Emily Nussbaum's profile. Yes, a glowing profile from Emily Nussbaum, who was at the time one of the great TV critic. Absolutely. It's funny to say that we were like more online then with regards to TV because all, like this is one of many TV podcasts that you and I like participated. There's really only two as far as I know, but yes. Sure. So there is like a larger volume of TV discussion now, but there was something very heated and focused about the way that people were, there were like fewer recaps.

And so everyone was just in one place kind of talking about it or the people who were anyway, you know, anyway. And so it had a huge amount of attention before you could even engage with the thing and people threw some elbows. Yeah, and I almost, I had forgotten two things in my rewatch of the pilot that I was reminded of. One was the pilot is a masterful pilot.

It is absolutely jaw-droppingly great. And I think has only gotten greater because I've now had 11 years of watching other pilots and did not appreciate how good it was. It is sharp. It is so funny. It is so brightly and broadly drawn. I was blown away by this as a pilot. The other thing I had forgotten is that from the beginning, she steered into the skid and has Shoshana, like, moments after being introduced, saying which sex in the city character she is. Oh, yeah.

knowing that there hadn't been an HBO Sunday night show about four women since sex in the city. Right. And it was all the coverage was already going to name that. So she hung a lantern on it, as we say in the TV business, right from Jump. She also, that has the famous line, I'm going to be the voice of my generation, or at least a voice of our generation, which, you know, is very funny and also fueled a lot of the coverage because, I mean, millennials, I am a millennial, so I've existed for almost 40 years now, sadly. But this was like when millennials had graduated. This was like the beginning of the millennial media boom, if you will. And so she was a very early face for it. I loved it.

Thanks so much. Yeah. From my position high on the shore, watching the beach at Normandy, I thought it was going great. Right. But so she became like the poster child for all of the old people yelling about avocado toast. Yes. She sure did. And though I think she mentioned this throughout the run of the show, everyone quoted that line

and she made peace with people quoting that line, but they never mentioned that the character is high on opium tea which she delivers it. That's true. So you gotta give credit where credit is due. She was in on the joke. Well, that became kind of a larger question,

and I'm curious to hear what you think now, about the show, which is how much was it in on the joke? And how much, self-aware was it and how much was it parading these people versus... Yes, and how good is it to be in on the joke? Because then you just seem defensive and open to anything, as opposed

to rising above it. And that's a constant push-pull of internet life and of just social life in general. Watching the pilot now... I can say it again, I cannot believe how funny it was, but also the fact that so much about the pilot is about

these characters all lively saying that their parents support them, or in the case of Adam Driver's character saying that his grandma, he would never take money from his parents, but his grandmother sends him $800 a month. I didn't remember that aspect of it. So he could continue his life as an actor slash woodworker. That's what the show was satirizing and highlighting. And again and again, the thing that the show was holding up for you to consider was taken

and used as a weapon against it. The show was at no point. The show was always aware that it was about people who were in between childhood and adulthood, hence the name. And the people taking money or not being able to afford New York, that was baked in. Yes.

Though that brings up an interesting point throughout the show, and especially the last season, which is what are you to do with the sincerity that is also a part of the show? And these people are ridiculous, and the show is aware of that

and is making fun of them, but also has you rooting for them, and especially the Hannah character who goes on a, trajectory through each season, but really through the show as a whole, and winds up at an interesting place in the finale. And how am I supposed to receive the final season and the message and what this character does and how this character feels about it? Well, let's start with how you felt at the beginning, because I'm curious as someone who, as you said, was potentially the target

audience for the show. How did you receive it? And how did you experience the first. season or two of the show. There's always this thing when you see art that is so closely aligned with your experience that it can feel like an attack as well as a representation. And it's, you know, it's not that, it's not that common for me, but for example, when I went to see Barbie this summer, you know, I think the Depression Barbie and the starbursts and the, you know, not texting your friend back because of something on Instagram. That hit home with a lot of us, you know? And it's funny, but you're also like, oh, no.

And so everyone else noticed that. Everyone else does that too, and everyone noticed that. And so I think being in my late 20s in Brooklyn, I was just like, this is amazing. And also, oh, no. And also, am I like that too? And is this, do I need to clean up my own act so I don't get like, looped in with this. Right.

So I watched it with a mix of admiration and, like, very personal revulsion, but mostly admiration. I mean, I loved it. I thought it was, like, very funny. And it is also so well made. Yeah. But I think even at the time I could recognize, like, oh, this is, this is smart. This is actually good. Yeah, I think.

And going back and looking at some of the coverage of it and also the ratings, which were consistent, I mean, HBO and ratings, especially then, was that they were a little bit more opaque about things, but it was absolutely a success for them. Yeah. And I think that one thing, I mean, I don't want to throw out hyperbole, but it's hard to think of other shows that have been more defined by people's

backwards perception of it than girls. Actually rewatching some of the early episodes was a reminder that when the show is on the air, particularly the first two seasons, this was a Sunday night prestige show that people were excited about and talking about and engaged in, not

not with that extra level of, you know, one eyebrow raised or what's she going to do now or how dare she? It did not feel like a provocation in a way that I think that it may have later in its run. When did the Donald Glover character appear? That's season two. That's season two. I know, which to your point of this show being so aware and so like up its own, you know, digestive tract. And it happens so fast because at the sometime during the season one, there was, you know, rightful observation that this was a very white, very specific and very non-representative slice of specifically Brooklyn life. And so, and, you know, they don't have any black friends.

They don't have any, like, it's just people without being supported by their parents, like whining. And this was also, I guess we take it for granted. now that, I mean, Brooklyn is not totally genderified, but Brooklyn, like, the idea of Brooklyn has been exported to the world via its artisanal, you know, woodboards or whatever, and that was still in process, and people were still digesting their feelings about that. So it was fraught, and they responded by immediately, like, having Hannah, the Lena Dunham character dating Donald Glover, like, within six months? It's the season two premiere.

It is. And then he like disappears. He disappears, but also he's a black Republican. Yeah. And it's not a natural fit on any level. And that also speaks to something that the show willingly engaged with, and it was impossible for it to avoid. But like, what do we want out of our art, right?

Like, it was interesting that in the phrase you just used, which I think was very accurate, you were saying that it was a very specific slice of Brooklyn life. Sign me up. Like when I watch things, I want them to be specific. Right. I want them to feel true to the experiences of the creator. Right. I also want art that expands my mind and, like, see people who are curious and questing outside of their own little boxes.

But the show was accurate to Lena Dunham's experience and to her friend group and her experiences there. You mentioned sex in the city earlier because this is obviously in the lineage of. Yeah, well, there was sex and there was also the same city. Sure. And four women and also for white women who live very, live very, very, privileged lives and a very small slice of New York. And Sex in the City recently has had two seasons of a reboot called, and just like that.

Which I have seen every episode of, and I would like to go on record saying that I will watch every episode that they ever make of that show. David Zazlav thanks you. Just until all of us die, you know? It's like one by one. Them or us? I was just going to say one by one. They can pick them off.

And just like that, there were two people on the show. And it's not good. And there are a number of reasons for that. But it has been the show, to its credit, it wants to deal with the very limited worldview of their first series. And so they've added a lot of characters of color. They've added queer characters. They are trying to explore the larger world.

I think that instinct is admirable. And I think the execution has not been at the level that you would. want. But it's, you know, it's another way of saying these shows are built for, to do a very small thing. Yeah. And when they add the Donald Clever character, you know, it's like, well, are you grading the show or the intention? Yeah. And honestly, it's another reason why I struggle separating my perception and my experience with girls from my perception of an experience with the internet or with Twitter. And it bridges this era where, you know, Lena Dunham came from a pre-social media into the beginning of social media era of the internet where like confessional was

everything. Finally an opportunity for everyone to tell their truths and to like live their own emo song and like I'm going to make my movie. I'm going to do my live journal. I'm going to share myself. And there is an innate artistry in that. And for some people, that was true. She then sort of straddled this decade where everyone continued to try to be like, well, I'm here in good faith representing myself. We are now in an era. and I think the show ending in 2017, which is a pretty momentous time in culture in America and an internet culture discourse, where it became,

being actually like your honest self was no longer really the goal, right? It is, do you have this curated, correct on everything, presentation of yourself? 2016, 2017 is kind of the transitional moment. That's what I think, yeah. Yeah, and I guess it ends sort of when it should.

I mean, maybe it could have ended a little sooner, The show. Yeah, but just generationally. And in terms of social media and the idea, like the ideal way to put yourself out in the world. And also this idea of that you're just being raw and honest and it's just like me out there was still somewhat novel in 2012 and then was like way over exposed in 2017. Yes, but also the idea that like if I enter into this arena on good terms and. good faith, I will be treated that way. My intentions will be received that way. There's an element to some of the conversation happening within the show. And I want to talk about the show as a show, too.

But I feel like it's impossible to separate them. That reminds me of watching people like public intellectuals or writers or politicians who I admire bravely strapping on the Pith helmet and going on to Twitter every day and responding to everyone. Being like, aha, you've missed my key point here. A little posting disease. Yes. Yeah. Like I will tweet through it. Yeah.

And I will be judged victorious, you know. And I say that honestly with empathy, as someone who went through a period of that too. Sure. And then it was just like, wait, all of this is toxic. The show's attempts to have it both ways and have its good heart went out. I have more empathy for it when doing some of this rewatch and some of these explorations. And an appreciation that the show is just a funny show week to week in spite of this.

And when you're doing a rewatch, watch. We are no longer living in the internet of 2014 and 2017. We're living in an internet that is in many ways, much worse. Oh, I'm sorry. I jumped in. Yes. And also you and I, I think, have like finally grown up enough to be like, well, we're just not going to participate. I'm not participating in it. But it's kind of like now when a show does COVID, you know, or when a show was doing COVID and it was still somewhat COVID. And I was like, I do not want to live in this. But we have enough time. Now that it's more of a time capsule than having to, like, be watching it as not being a part of that ongoing conversation.

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Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and wear. and kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9-9 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. So I guess in the spirit of the show itself, building up over the six seasons to the finale, it's sort of interesting to consider, well, there's two things. One, the beauty of the pilot and of the first season is inextricably linked to watching a young creator figuring things out in real time on the fly with a great budget, you know, in front of our eyes. And so part of the charm of the show, I think, is the kind of cobbled together nature of it. Like, oh, we're going to take a flyer on this. And these are the, we're going to center it on these people. But wait, we forgot. Oh, but that's not

working. Maybe we should add, because when you then jump into seasons five or six and you're like, well, the only person Lena Dunham seems to want to do scenes with is Andrew Reynolds. Yes. But like, he, who is very funny. Who's amazing. And, and popped, you know, in the way that like other shows would prioritize people, guest stars. Urkel took over family matters, for example. That's not fair to Jaliel White or Andrew Rannells. But, you know, but that wasn't, that's not something that she wasn't thinking at the beginning, that we were joking about Shoshana being like, this is my fiance who you've never seen, I hate you all. You could kind of see that coming in season two or three where the reason for her being there was really increasingly fuzzy.

Yes. What did, when you were watching or even rewatching those first few seasons, What did you think the quote unquote project of the show was if it had one other than episode to episode season to season entertaining us? Was there a larger story that you felt keyed in on early? I think you're right that it's finding itself a little bit. And in season one, it's not like I will now tell the story of Hannah trying to find herself in the world. I mean, I guess it is a tiny bit, but what it thinks the story of Hannah. is and it contained one season as like a 23-year-old who just graduated college and is like getting HPV and has a bad boyfriend as we all did once upon a time. It is contained. And it's a little bit

that classic, you have one perfect season that works on its own. And then at some point, if you're going to keep making TV shows, then the momentum and the character building and the project changes just because you got to keep, it's like a yes and, yes and, yes, and situation. So I think it's idea of what Hannah could be, as opposed to season one just being a snapshot of like, kind of a mess girl sort of trying to figure it out and not really figuring it out to will this kind of a mess girl figure it out and be a writer and will she actually be the voice of her generation

and it starts to take that line more seriously than it does in the pilot, which is, as you said, a joke with her, like on opioids. And separate the finale totally from this, which is weird for the podcast that we're doing. Sure. But one thing that I think is really was radical then and remains radical is how unsympathetic Lena Dunham is to her own protagonist. And the tendency towards on shows, on long run,

shows is a softening and of a we love them we love writing these characters and love playing them as much as you love watching them and the edges get sanded off and there are moments when you feel that happening when people pair off or people get happy endings but you can then almost feel like someone like trying to keep themselves awake in a movie theater not like me during Killers of the Flower Moon by the way just anyone 30 it was just like that was wild I've made a terrible mistake um you could feel like oh no we have to sharpen this up again and there's a toughness to it And like I did not, I remembered, for example, from the pilot, I remembered Hannah coming to her parents and basically on drugs saying she's, you know, genius and begging them for more money. I did not remember her waking up trying to order room service, finding out that the room has been closed, seeing two envelopes on the table, one marked Hannah, one marked housekeeping, both containing $20 bills and her taking both.

Right. I did not remember that. That is a prickliness and a quote unquote, this is the worst word ever in called. cultural criticism, potential unlikeability that is very rare. Then, now, and any time on TV history. You know what I had forgotten? And this has nothing to do with prickliness, but it's radical, which is the degree of nudity on this show.

Totally. And I mean, I remember at the time this whole thing about, you know, Lena Dunham, who doesn't have a typical supermodel build, making. a big deal out of like being very naked and having the type of body that you didn't normally see on screen. And frankly, you still do not just like out and almost like putting it in your face a bit. Which upon rewatch, yeah, it was just like they are. Like they're all naked and they're all, you know, doing a having a lot of wild sex. I'd forgotten just how much sex there is in this.

By the way, one runner throughout six seasons of the show is that Alison Williams is never naked and it's in the pilot. When she's like, are you going to wear a bath, are you going to keep wearing a towel? And she says, yes, and she says, I should be seeing your breasts right now. And then in the finale, it comes up again. Yes. So. Though it's, I mean, she is never like 100% naked, but there's a lot of undress. You know, I would say it's not like she's wearing full clothes all the time.

No, especially later. Sure. Yeah. With TV's favorite Ebb and Moss background. Yes. I mean, just he's very special. I forgot all about Desi. I forgot about Charlie.

I mean, there's a lot of characters. Yeah. But so I. I had forgotten that it's a conscious decision, the amount of nudity and also what she is doing with Hannah and how Hannah feels about her body. And it's a running theme in the dialogue as well, which I thought was a very insightful and honest. You know, we're all of the 90s like supermodel Kate Moss era. Like by we, I mean women my age, like we're all warped, you know? So like it's for her, she was talking about it and making it a part of this.

character both physically and in the writing in a way that I thought was really memorable. And also, it's not that it was like hard. That's a hard thing to do. That's a hard thing to do. And that's another ask of the character because she's just like always naked. You know, you're like, okay. So it is, it is flaunting the expectations of a main character in an HBO show or any other show about women. The choices that the show made in terms of that performance,

but also just the emotional places that it went to, or the extremity of the emotions that it went to. And I feel like when we talk about extremity on television, we're talking about how many people get beheaded on House of the Dragon or whatever. Right. This is not that. And it is not, this didn't start a revolution in this type of storytelling or show. I'm trying to think of anything that's comparable.

I mean, you could say maybe, like the television made by Michaela Cole, but she's made two limited run television shows. She did not commit to, and I don't mean to say that one is better than the other, looking at interviews with Lena Dunham around the end of the show, she keeps talking about how much better the British model is.

Yeah. She was clearly stymied by the expectations from year to year stuff. During the course of the show's run, as we're leading up to talking about latching specifically, did you feel like there were moments when it ought to have ended, when you felt like you really wished it had ended?

Well, it's funny in, I think in the moment we all did, I think as the TV machinery became more obvious, you know, Adam and Jessa getting together was a real like eighth season of friends. Let's, you know, throw this together and like see what's going on. Shake it up and see. Right. Though then, of course, they had like amazing chemistry and that does bring something interesting out of the Hannah thing.

But once you could feel the plot. Or Marnie and Ray, too, right? Like, that's another one. Oh, my God. That, like, went on forever. I mean, like, Marnie, like, suddenly becoming, like, a member of Edward Sharp or whatever. Her, I, I, we watched the wedding episode, and I forgot that there are multiple references to,

like, an Edward Sharp video that she specifically designed her wedding run, which is very funny. I mean, and also, like, that's not a name I had thought of in, what, 10 years? No. But once, yeah, once she has, like, a singing career and then, and that's how Desi comes to the show and he's great, but, and, like, Adam is on Broadway and Jessa is, like, going to be a therapist. And you're just kind of like, and like Shoshana's in Japan. Yes, that was a whole thing.

I, you know, you just feel them scrounging for things to fill this time. There was also, and I think there's a, there's a, you can look at it through a different lens, like the whole season or half season when Hannah is in Iowa at the Writers' Workshop. I mean, that was interesting to Lena Dunham. You know what I mean? And, like, I think she, one way to look at girls is, if girls had never happened, what are the four movies that, you know, that Mumblecore tiny furniture, Lena Dunham would have made during these years of her life? And I think you could probably pick out the strands of what was interesting to her. And one of them may have been exactly that, like being a bohemian academic in the middle of the country.

Right. And who do you run into and what the politics of that are? Right. But even structurally, I believe it's season three ends with Hannah is going to. go to Iowa and she and Adam are done. Or maybe it's season four, I don't remember. But there's a season finale. Yep.

And you're like, oh, that could be the end of the show. That's the end of it. Right? Because this was a story about you in New York and a young person trying to figure it out. And then, like, you kind of figured it out. And season six, like, almost resets it. So to your point about the ending mirroring the beginning

and there is intentionality in what they're doing, I don't mean to dismiss, season six or the finale in that way, they're very good at what they do. But it did feel like a, just kind of like, oh, let's do it again, you know? Yeah. And what was interesting to see is in the middle of this, one of the things that marked the show, first of all, like, again, this is modern language, I feel like when we're looking back and we're being like, we expect a level of consistency across 60 plus episodes. That's just nobody can do that. And what's remarkable to me about looking at the breadth of the show is not just the episodes everyone points to, like the,

the Another Man's Trash episode. Essentially, it is a bottle episode where she has this weekend in a townhouse with Patrick Wilson. Incredible episode. I re-watched it. Patrick Wilson, what a start. Then I spent like 20 minutes watching YouTube videos of Patrick Wilson on Broadway. Did you know he was curly in Oklahoma?

I sure did. He's super theater. Yeah, he's super theater. I'm happy for him. Super theater slash Aquaman. Yeah. What a journey for Pat. Listen, I hope he has a townhouse of his own now.

That's why you do the Aquaman. That's what I'm saying. Another studios trash. But that the Matthew Rees episode, American Bitch, is also really notable that these are slice of life short films again kind of episode. Panic in Central Park, which was the Charlie and Marnie episode. I loved that episode. I remember you and Chris Ryan podcasting about that the first time around.

And another thing that was funny is that at some point I do the watch episodes about these episodes still ring in my head. Not mine. So I'd love to talk to you about what we said. We should have done that before we sat down. But the other thing that I think the show didn't get enough credit for was also rebounding in conventional ways. And one of the episodes I rewatched was Sit In, which is episode four.

This is the episode where at the end of the previous one, Hannah has returned from Iowa and walked in to her apartment where Adam is living with... Mimi Rose. Mee Rose Howard, which is not a name. It is a woman's name and a man's name. the flower in between, played by the great Gileon Jacobs. Can I also just say this show was so good on details because already in, what is that, 2015, the Mimi Rose Howard character who's only there for three episodes is one of these,

it's like an artist who has also done a TED Talk to a women's college that was filmed. And it's just about making space for yourself. And we all know that joke now, and we all know those personalities in the world. But that's pretty early. When Hannah walks in and there's all this tension, she says she's going to go out to get a cold-pressed juice. Yeah, it's really. The details. And so while the details were zeitgeisty in all the right ways, the thing that I think really buttressed the show was then it falls back on this TV language that really it could do.

And what I mean by that is in that episode, Hannah takes shelter in what used to be her bedroom. And then all of the other characters take turns visiting with her. I mean, it's like a play in the way that it's set up. But it's crafted so perfectly that every character is entirely themselves in a way that feels comforting and also exciting. Because once you realize that Shoshana's been first and she's behaving this way, you're like, oh, Jess is going to come. Oh, and then Marnie's going to come. And what's that going to be? And then what's the wild card?

Oh, it's Gabby Hoffman and John Glazer as Laird. and what's, I forget Adam's sister's name, but they're there, making the tea, and he's creaming her feet. And, you know, it's like Richard Shepard, who's a great director, directed a lot of episodes. His partner is Jenny Connor, who was Lena Dunham's creative partner.

And I think the influence of Jed Apatatau was overstated, but I do. Well, not on the sixth season. Yes, we have to talk about that. So we'll get there. But, but yes, so there was this, like, there was this TV backbone that it could fall, that it could turn to.

and make like a really entertaining, well-observed show. One of my favorite things about that episode is that when Jessica comes for her turn, she's just so entirely a character that she has been from the beginning. You lose sight of the fact that these actors and Jemima Kirk is amazing on the show, to a degree I didn't appreciate from the minute she arrives. It's unbelievable. And just talking about who's on drugs and who isn't in the bathroom with Marnie, in this episode where she's just casually saying that she connected Mimi Rose and Adam

because what were they supposed to do. it was a TV show. Yeah. It was a TV show. It wasn't a tweet. It wasn't a medium post. It wasn't a TED Talk or a thesis statement. Week to week, it was a TV show.

So in January 5th of 2016, Variety broke the news, Girls is ending after season six. And one thing I didn't remember was that there was a little two-step after every season, probably after the second or third, where there was, Lena Donno would make a quote being like, oh, it's very hard to do this and we're not sure. And then the implication was HBO was like, we would certainly appreciate more episodes It's a successful television show, but that it was also they came to an agreement that they would make the season and end it. Lena said she thinks America has a tendency to push shows past their due dates.

I like the British model. She also said, we've spent a lot of time talking about where these girls will end up. We definitely have a distinct idea of where we want to see them. I even sometimes focus on this final image I see, but between now and then, anything can happen. So this was a quote given before season six was written and broken and shot. But clearly she had some idea of what the ending of the show would be. Going into that final season, did you feel like there were questions that needed to be answered other than that existential question of like, what does Lena Dunham think is the ending point for this character? So the last episode of season five is the one where once again, just really ahead of the curve.

Yes. Hannah is auditioning to be on the moth. Yes. which, and then this is like in 2016, you know, I mean, it was obviously a thing, and there are plenty of people trying to be on the moth, but, you know, there's great jokes about it. It's like a direct line to Ira Glass.

And you're just like, okay, here we are all now doing what we're doing right here, you and me. We were doing it. And it's also sort of the closure of her reaction to Jessa and Adam. And the story that she's telling is the thing about leaving. a fruit basket and it's about jealousy and she's performing and it's it could be a finale. So I guess I had questions, but also no, because they did write almost every season finale in a way that it could be the end. Yeah, and I would say in doing some research for this podcast, I was rereading a lot of coverage of it at the end.

And our former colleague at the ringer, Lindsay Zolads wrote a really excellent piece for the ringer in the finale. and her argument in the end was that for her, the show ought to have ended exactly where you're saying in season five because it's not just that she reaches

some sort of creative and personal closure that are united. She expresses them in a way that is very Hannah, which is that she finds inner piece through a public performance of that piece,

but that then she breaks into a run on the Brooklyn Bridge and there's a freeze frame. Right. And what Lindsay wrote, she references something that Hannah says in the one man's trash

or another man's trash episode where she says, she realized that she wants all of the things, that she's not some oppositional punk. She wants nice things. She wants everything. And this is the end of Lindsay's piece from The Ringer,

was long before she got all the things, or even some of the things, the flourishing career, the professorship, the baby, but she was frozen in the exact moment she oriented her body in their direction. And that that's the place for a show about becoming,

not about having become. Right. That's where a show like that ought to have ended. And then we got the sixth season. I don't know if I entirely agree with that, but I think that's well observed. I completely, I agree with it. And it also just does that moment of suspension.

It's not like the totally saccharine earnest stuff of season six that feels, despite all the structural similarities, pretty different from the first five seasons, right? like even her finding some sort of moment of peace in the season five finale is her just telling her like a very vulgar story about her ex-boyfriend and best friend having sex. Yeah. And her like kind of getting to an okay place with it in public. To be fair, Marnie is her best friend. She wins. Right. She says. But I know what you mean. And it's also, look, there's a lot of, there was a lot of contrivance. in season six. Again, it's a TV show.

That's part of what's baked into it. But that season five ending suggests that maybe there didn't need to be. Because the entire idea for getting this professorship handed to her. Well, okay. Before we get into that. Okay. I'm just rolling up my sleeves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And there is a lot of contrivance in season five as well because season four ends with this really heartbreaking scene in the hospital because Adam, Jessa, and Hannah are all helping with the birth of Caroline and Laird's baby. Yes. And she's trying a home birth, which, again, all of that stuff was really funny. And then they wind up in the hospital. The baby's okay. And Adam and Hannah are literally standing over a baby.

And he's like, take me back. I miss you. It's this thing again. And it's, they're so good together. And the Adam Driver and Lena Dunham's chemistry and that those characters, works well, that it is very moving, even though it's like reheating the same should we be together, should we not thing that they have been doing for like three seasons at this point. So you could say that season five was sort of a contrivance in a lot of ways, and maybe even season four to your point

after Iowa. So, and that's, as you said, what happens when you make TV, right? It's also what happens when you make TV when you create a character to be the archetype for bad post-college boyfriends, but you accidentally cast the actor of his generation. And then you end up with these scenarios like in season four when Adam is now so entwined in the plot he has to call Desi on the phone to find Marnie and he's never had a cell phone and he also doesn't know these people.

Right. Because he's on a different show and on a different planet as an actor, but we're rooting for him. And also at this point, I think, is starting to bulk for Last Jedi. He is Kylo Ren in that episode, basically. His hair is long, his body is huge.

By the end, he is like fully Kylo Ren. I gasped when I watch the pilot. Just because physically, He's such a weird dork. I know. And he's so young. I mean, yeah, time is during. Time the Ravager.

All right. So, season six, you mentioned the professorship, falling out of thin air. We have to talk about the baby first. Let's talk about all of them. Well, because that comes. At the beginning, the season premiere of season six is the Riz Ahmed episode. Yes. Okay.

Where Hannah is now a successful internet journalist, she blogs. That is a career with legs. Let me just say. Just I could have left it there. But she's doing like the very classic, I think the moth helped her. I mean, to be clear, Hannah would be co-hosting Jam Session with you in reality. But she kind of, she had the classic late, I guess it's still happening now, but classic last decade job of I'm going to go do this stunt thing and write about it for like a women's internet magazine. It was not a cruise ship sponsored by a celebrity.

In this case, it was a surf camp in Montauk. And so then she doesn't know how to surf and a lot of antics or whatever. And then she starts a relationship with the surf instructor or has a weekend long stand with a surf instructor. Another hyphenated name, if I remember correctly. Yeah. I'd remember it exactly. Paul Louis? Yeah.

Yeah. But Paul Louis and she was like, that's two names. Right. and then he it doesn't work out and so she you know goes on with her life and then four episodes later or three episodes later she has a UTI because she's still Hannah and finally goes to the emergency room did you remember this I had forgotten who the doctor is yeah and she goes to the emergency room and I'd forgotten that the doctor is Patrick Wilson yes from the one man's trash episode which again And, you know, TV is full of contrivances.

Let's do it. But there is something still so surprising about it. He hasn't shown up since. He prescribes, you know, whatever, and then mentions almost in passing that she's pregnant. And she did not know that she was pregnant. And he tries to console her. It's like I can, she doesn't have insurance. So he's working.

He tries to work out some of the abortion details and is like, I will be out of pocket, but I can take you her friend. And she says, who says I want to? an abortion and runs out of the hospital. And then as far as I can tell whether or not she's going to keep the baby is never discussed again. The decision to keep the baby is never discussed again. Respectfully, what?

Respectfully what in the world of reality, respectfully what in the world of this show, which is where people are very neurotic and talk endlessly about every decision they make, have very complicated relationships to their body. are whether or not they actually are, you know, self-progress, like, they are annoyingly vocal about what they believe to be progressive women's rights. Yes. And an ideal, an idea of what it means to be a progressive woman. I'm not endorsing any version of it.

It just, it's never even mentioned. And then you know that Judd Apatow is involved in the show and you think about knocked up. And it just kind of, it doesn't, that never made sense to me. Well, they, it's also undermined by the fact that she agonizes a hundred times more over taking a cushy job or moving out of the city that she does over having a baby. And you could say, you know, that's part of the story and the character that she is, she, she, she focuses on the wrong things or she overinflates some and minimizes others without considering the long term. stakes of any of it. But I think there's two pieces here. One, I think the Jad Epetow thing is a, is a smart point to bring up because his movies again and again express emotional journeys and comedy through remarkably traditionalist, if not outright conservative expressions of love and

family. Right. That's just, that's his... And family. It all, it just all leads back to you. That's his trip. That it is better to have done. And that has been true in his life. I'm not questioning his truth, and it's made some good movies, but it is worth pointing out and feels like an odd fit for the show. I would argue that to me, the odder thing about it that jars the most is that unlike the sort of haphazard, we'll figure it out, will elevate and diminish characters as we see fit, and throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks spirit of five seasons of the show, the sixth season is the first time where she's clearly writing towards an ending that she wanted to do,

that the arrow-notched, no metaphor intended in the first episode with Paul Louis is aiming at a target that she wanted to get to no matter what. Yes. And so everything else is an exercise in making the best possible version of something that might not feel right until she got to where she wanted to go. And it's just a different type of storytelling. And it's, I agree with you, though, it's quite jarring. It's as if it became a fundamentally different show for its last season. Yeah. And I say this as very happy mother of a son also.

And like as a person who always wanted to have a kid, so it's not like the end result being motherhood is to me a problem or a thing that I deal that shouldn't be held up. It's I think motherhood's great. Two thumbs up for me. But it was just so out of keeping with the rest of the show. and so out of keeping, not even out of keeping with the character, but just was never explained.

And it was kind of like, I think your observation that they were writing towards something makes a lot of sense and explains why it just feels different than the other five seasons. Yeah, I also think when you look back on the show

and then you also look at what Lena Dunham's career has been in her life and she continues to share all sorts of aspects of her life and I think it's fair to discuss, because not only does she talk about her life, but her life and her art so frequently interact with each other, that it does seem like from an artistic perspective, I'm not talking about in terms of her decision to be like,

I'm writing towards something, but just what the show was, ultimately for her, which I believe was a vehicle for her to work out her shit, that she was interested in. Yeah, absolutely. And she has been really, like, really vocal. Like, you can read many essays in illustrious magazines about,

and I think around this time, her personal health struggles, how they affected her decisions or ability to have kids or not have kids. She's written about her IVF. Like, it is a rich and fraught topic for her. And you're right. And she wrote about having a hysterectomy, I believe, as well. Yes, as a part of endometriosis, which I learned about from Lena Dunham.

She's really been out there and has also been out there about the emotional fallout of all of it. I have found the real-life version of her work, you know, like her personal essays in Hannah Horvath tradition to be more affecting than season six. Though it does make season six like kind of sad because if she is working through some stuff. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's, it's complicated for sure and interesting. There's so much that's complicated. and I think richly emotional and significant for her as a creator

that was also easily ripped at, gobbled up, digested by the media that was already in place to do that with her, such as the fact that the baby that she has is a baby of color. The father of the baby is Riz Ahmed. It's fraught. And she goes right at it. And whether it was the right choice or not right choice, I don't feel like I'm in a position to say. but it made the whole conclusion of the show very noisy, I would say, culturally. Yeah.

Which, you know, I guess in a different model, maybe that's what you want. You want people talking about your art. But I feel like our experience of this show, as was building up to these last few episodes of the season in early 2017, was charged. It's funny. I told you I remembered the watch episodes, but I don't remember. I remember you and Chris saying, even at the time, well, like, that episode nine was really the finale, you know, and that was the closure of the TV show that we all watch together for six seasons. And the women yelling at each other in the bathroom was, you know, was kind of it. And what's funny is that I remembered the details of latching, the actual finale. And I remembered the episode where they're all yelling at each other in the bathroom. But I didn't remember. when that happened. But I was like, in my head, I have two finales at once.

And I, you know, I was like, okay, but that's the actual ending. And that is what felt like the closure of the show. And I had just, I had forgotten that it was so close to the actual finale. Yeah. And I was really impressed with episode nine in a way that I, that I, I think I probably was at the time, but I had forgotten about that there's a beautiful, there's the big fight in the bathroom, but then there's this beautiful cross-cutting of all four of them, in a way, individually, dancing, which is a callback to what I still think is the series highlight,

which is the dancing on my own sequence at the end of episode three of season one. All Avengers women do. One of the great episodes, yeah. This time they're dancing to a song by Banks, but it's intercut with the crowded party, and then Hannah moving out and moving in and spinning on the dance floor, and then spinning in a chair open to the possibility of her new, life. It's kind of like we were saying at the end of season five. So we got that sense that there's something new. So let's talk about latching. The finale was written by Lena, Jenny Connor, and Judd Apatow receives a writing credit. He had received writing credits on various episodes throughout the year,

but I thought that was interesting, that the creative triumvirate that brought the show, that birthed the show, if you will, came back together for this. Jenny directed the finale. It was just the description on the little box was, Hannah embarks on a new chapter. Yeah. So after a cold open where Hannah's still pregnant and Marnie shows up and gives the speech that you referenced earlier where she says, you know, I win. I'm your friend. I'm your friend. Let me help you take care of the baby. And she is essentially, she's giving the same speech that Adam gives two episodes previously. So there is a, you know, a nice symmetry to that. And that fits into the theme of, you know, your friends are the real loves of your life not to be too sex in the city about it. That's a thing that happened. Sex and City, Andy. I'll get to it. Then they cut, she's like five months later. Is that how long it is?

It's five months later. And the baby, Grover. Grover. It's here. And it's Hannah and Marnie taking care of Grover in this idyllic house upstate that is, by the way, just instantly furnished. Beautiful house. Fully. Incredible.

Amazing views. They're very close to Tivoli where there's a wine and cheese night. So we'll just let you know that's a lovely part of upstate New York. We have to assume she's teaching it Bard. I feel, this was, so I assume that they set the episode there because it was near where you got married. Right. It's a beautiful part of the state. That's, it's a little more.

I've lost my geography. Yeah, it's a little more. Hold on, East. East. We got married very close to Pennsylvania. As a tribute. Yeah. To your husband.

Exactly. Yeah. I appreciate that. Sure. No problem. And they are just. Raisin a baby. And the main, like, stressor of the episode is that Grover, the baby, will no longer breastfeed. He will not, he did at the beginning of his existence, and now he will no

longer latch. Yes. He will... Giving the episode its title. Except the bottle. Yes. But he will not latch. And then it becomes an exploration of early motherhood and what you want to give to your child and what you give to the people in your life that you love. But really mostly what it means to be a mom. And at some point Hannah's mom shows up in order to kind of make it all work out. And then at the very end, after Marnie has decided that it's time for her to move on with her life, Hannah, well, I guess Hannah encounters a teen. So Hannah's having a tantrum. Obviously, she's sleep deprived.

She's under a lot of stress, but she has. She's sleeping until 11 all the time. She seems, she's fine. But who can say? It is not my place to judge a new mother, but she does, she's exhibiting very Hannah-esque behavior in the sense that, something is not going her way. She's faced with a challenge, and she seems dead set on throwing up her hands and giving up

and saying, he hates me. Right. He's much happier, you know, and Marnie's doing the, Marney is the living embodiment of mommy blogs. Yes. Saying that, you know, you're supposed to do it this way. This is special. It's better if you do this.

I mean, she gives the whole breastfeeding, like breast milk statistics. Golden, liquid. Yeah, liquid gold, which I have some thoughts on. for later. But right, Hannah's given up. He hates me. I can't do this.

She like runs, she goes on a walk. So Marnie then in a panic calls Larene, who's just Becky Ann Baker, just unsung, one of the MVPs of the series, amazing, tough, surprising, fun performance throughout. Low-key, best part of episode season finale of season five

is Becky Ann Baker and Andrew Rannels. sharing 40s on the street. Oh, great stuff. Getting drunk, and he's like three more beers, and I'm going to try to fuck you. And she's like, turns out you're my type. Anyway, she comes in and gives a little tough love, and Hannah just says some wild shit back to her mother

and storms out. Goes for a walk. Right. Gives up. Encounters a teen who seems to be in distress, so Hannah off and doesn't have any pants or shoes on. So Hannah offers her pants and shoes, one last taking the clothes off,

which I respect. And is trying to help the teen thinks she's, you know, thinks she's like running away from a boyfriend or something. And then it just turns out that the teen has run away to escape during her homework. And Hannah, like, finds her light, basically, and gives a speech about what, in defense of the mom who was making her do her homework. And what does it mean to be a mom? And your mom's this.

And she kind of, you see her clicking in in real time to what it is to be a mom and that there is a mom inside her, even if she doesn't totally consciously realize it. And then there are some more antics about her getting home. She gets home. Grover wakes up. She's like, I got it. She goes in, and after an episode of him not latching, he latches.

And the last shot is her looking, a beautiful piece of acting by Lena Dunham, her looking contented as this baby finally latches. And I think you're meant to understand that she's, She's going to, once again, she's going to be okay. She's in a place where she figured it out and she can do this. Yeah. She's accepted the challenge and met the challenge for once.

And the baby has latched. Yeah. And then she sings fast car. It's interesting. It's tough. And we should say that this episode aired and I think immediately there was a flood of vitriol. It's not the right word, but this was a conversation starter. Yeah.

This was not a wow, they stuck the landing. This was a delightful, perfect. end of the series. This was a wait what. Reading the reviews of it the next day. I'm actually continue to be really impressed. The TV critics of that era, some of whom are still working as TV critics, were truly like the ER surgeons in that they like instantly kind of captured a mixed feeling correctly. I feel like Jim Panooswick and the Times wrote a really strong review.

Emily Nussbaum, who kind of... Has championed the series throughout. in the series wrote that first piece, wrote a really strong mixed piece for the New Yorker. And her point, because I think we can get right into it, was about the speeches in the episode, more than anything else. I mean, she's like, it was funny, it was surprising. These are all good things when you're talking about a series finale. I'm going to quote her here from her piece from April 2017, about those speeches.

I know many people found them refreshing, as people frequently find it refreshing, whenever the girls' characters call each other narcissistic asses. My own feelings were more mixed. It's been striking to me as the seasons have passed that with increasing regularity, the speeches the characters on girls give have begun to echo the diatribes that are made toward girls. It's the familiar music of Twitter trolls. Grow up Snowflake. Put on your big girl pants.

Fuck your feelings. The secret ingredient is contempt. Yeah, that is very perceptive. That is not at all my problem with the episode, though I think it's right. I think it definitely explains kind of where the writers, the filmmakers, are coming from, or theorizes anyway. I just don't like that this is the end. I mean, I have problems with this as an ending. So let me, I'd like to hear them, but you remember feeling in 2017 versus what you

thought on this rewatch. Sure. I remember in 2017 being like, what? And I think it was a mixture of this. This doesn't make sense. And this character, and this character has not really made sense to me as a character, as the character Hannah that we've been watching since the just total running headfirst into motherhood without any sort of support and the job falling from the sky at a really good

college and then suddenly moving upstate. And, you know, I was just like, this doesn't make sense. plus is the takeaway that I'm supposed to take away from six seasons of girls is like, oh, but it's, you know, the most important thing is breastfeeding your child. It's a very traditional, small-sea conservative moral, or, you know, it has that apatobian.

Like, family is, like, the most important thing. And, you know, does that line up with the show? Does that line up with my, like, own values of what I want, a young woman of my general. to be thinking. Like, I think at the time I was kind of like, I don't really get this.

And I think now, I mostly feel the same way. And I say that as someone who since 2017 has become a mother and who did breastfeed. So I'm not against any of those things. I'm very against the mommy blogging that Marnie parrots. And they do a mostly good job of presenting that as the, you know, the hogwash, the baby, finally gets formula at the, at the end and God bless formula.

And he seems fine. And he likes it, as they say. So, so that's like mostly okay. And they are identifying even there a little bit, like the tensions and the politics, like within that thing, which like maybe no one cares about, but I lived it for like a year because you really breastfeeding takes a long time. You also just like, it just, it literally, it's like a job. It takes so much time all the time.

You know this. I think that there is something interesting going on there with the idea of, like, Hannah and her body and the way that, like, that body has been a character in the show and what a body can do and what it can't do and how to feel at peace about it and how your body connects to another person and what you use it for. That is, like, interesting and maybe there's, like, a glimmer of hope there. or something, but otherwise it just kind of bums me out. I mean, I'm glad he latched, but, you know, that's good if that's what you want. Like, the bottle was also doing fine. But I'm like, this is ultimately what I'm supposed to take away that you just completely dropped this entire life that I spent a lot of time investing in and that, you know,

even if I was judging it simultaneously because it was part parity, but that it suddenly became so sincere and none of the rest of that matter and this is what matters was just confusing. I hear you and I think I agree with you. I don't remember what I said about the show on the podcast at the time. I don't think I was super positive, but I think I was open to the possibility of it. And I appreciated the artistic swing. Like there was a vision that she wanted to do and she did it. And they aligned the season to suit that. And anytime a finale tries something different, I'm interested. You know, I think that there's something. to be said for that, that there's still life in it even at the very end.

All of that said, rewatching it, it fell much flatter to me. It felt like someone trying on clothes that just didn't fit. It didn't feel in the same spirit of the show. And it also felt like the push-pull of the argument within Lena Dunham as a person and it's a creator that fueled the show, which is embodied in that one man's trash thing where she's like, I behave this way, but I want all of these things. The push pull between being an outsider, but also wanting comfort, wanting to be an insider, wanting all of it, at the end, it felt like she was sort of taking that argument and just sort of pushing it onto the table and throwing up her hands in a way. I don't know that the show ultimately needed to give us this level of resolution, which is not something that one often says about a long-running TV show.

Yeah, we already had the resolution in the Adam episode where, you know, they, for one day, and it mirrors one man's trash in a lot of ways, they make believe that Adam is going to help her raise the baby and they run around Brooklyn and they, you know, and it's, they make plans and they go baby shopping and they have this incredibly moving moment at a diner. I think shortly after they've discussed doing shifts at the co-op, the Park Slope Food Co-op, and where they both realize, like, this is, we're living in a dream, we're living in something that is like never going to happen. This doesn't make any sense. And that is the moment of waking up and for this baby dream, but also their relationship, you know? And I think it's really moving. And then they have the next episode, which is all the friends.

and we hate each other, and Hannah's on her way somewhere else, and she's trying to say goodbye, and that goodbye is yelling in a bathroom and then dancing, which feels right. And you can even do that with her going off to then have a kid and have a new job and have a new life. That all feels like resolution. That's why earlier when I was saying that it feels almost tacked on in some ways. They just because there was like a whole other world that was interest,

that Lena Dunham wanted to explore. Yeah. And apparently only had like one episode for it. It's odd because if ever there was a show that could have earned the graduate ending, which is one of my all-time favorite endings, and Michael Clayton does this too, where it's like you get the big thing and then you linger and the camera still rolls, and you get the sense that people's lives go on and actual real life is not necessarily capped off by traditional celebrations or markings of time.

Life just keeps going on. You have to sit with it and live with it. and that's a show called Girls, that's baked into the premise, that there's just a lot of uncertainty to go. Also, thinking about the show over six seasons, what are the stakes of it? The level of peril is low. Emotional turmoil, yes.

But in terms of her general safety, and I'm saying this is fine. But what I mean by that is leaving her in a place of professional or personal turmoil does not communicate that she's doomed. Because this is the show. She's fine. Her floor is relatively high. So this sort of ending is it remains confounding.

And it remains confounding too, considering the three people who wrote it, whereas you have Judapitau, who is an older, very successful man for whom having children and making movies about people pairing off and having children has been enormously successful, no notes, the reason for everything. Jenny Connor's perspective on it, I'm fascinated by, because she's older than Lena by at least 10 years and has children and has made certain choices in her life and feels a certain way about them. And then Lena, who's the youngest of them, had not faced these decisions necessarily yet, or was thinking about them. And was not sure what they were going to be in her own life or whether they were going to align with what she wanted, which she has been pretty open about. Yes. And I think that there is also...

Which I admire, by the way. Totally. These are super hard things to talk about. I want to be clear that we're not judging anyone's personal decision making or the artist's decision making, but purely in terms of what it means for these characters in the artistic life of the show. One thing that you and I can say from very different perspective, but I think shared nonetheless is that you can tell yourself that being a parent won't change you or won't affect your professional or whatever goals you have. But it fucking does. It fundamentally

changes so much of you. Yeah, though I do think that I'm not necessarily negatively, but it changes. No, no, but I do think my ultimate, like my instinctive ultimate rejection of the finale is the implication, you know, this is a show called girls. And then so the last moment, the last shot, would theoretically, one way to read it is like, this is the moment that you are no longer a girl. You're a woman. And so this idea that only when you're like physically giving your body to another person, like, that this act of motherhood is the differentiation between girl and woman. I, like, really, I reject that.

And I reject that as someone who has like become a, you know, a mother and understands how it does change you. I think it's not the only thing. Now, maybe I can say that because I've had. had the experience and you, if, you know, this is written, as I understand it, from a place where Lena's Dunham is still deciding if she wants to do all of it. And so it's imagining another option. You know, I don't know. I just, it bums me out. I mean, it bums me out. It's like not a big deal because it felt because we got all the other fineries, you know, which is, we are, we got them.

Yeah, we got them. It didn't ignore them. It didn't ignore them. We were not poorly serviced. resolutions. And I really admire Emily Nussbaum as a critic. The speeches didn't bother me as much as I guess I like it sometimes when people say this thing that is supposed to be said, I'm also an Aaron Sorkin fan, you know? So like it's like we just, we have to be very honest. So when she's yelling at the, the teenager, I had forgotten it and I was kind of, I was like slightly moved by it. Sometimes the best work comes from friction. And I think some of the best work of girls came from the friction between a very young independent filmmaker who made art like she was blogging and industry vets. People who are like, why are you saying all these other things that are half things? Say the one thing. Do it in 20 minutes, not two hours.

I mean, that friction fueled some of the absolute the best of the show and why it was successful. And sometimes some people won and they made a conventional episode, like the one called boys. one called Boys, where they all go to, was it Staten Island or something? And it's just like, that is TV 101. Like, what haven't we done? Who hasn't, haven't we gotten together? And it also fueled great things like the standalone bottle episodes we're talking about, where all prior TV industry writing advice was ignored. And she made something that just felt like straight from her heart to the laptop to the screen. That's fascinating. And I think good. But to stay within the realm of TV industry jargon.

She broke up. The show ended when she broke up with the dominant relationship that she had on the show, which is New York. She broke up with New York. She moved away. Yeah. It's a hat on a hat for it then also, also get the other final thing and also find emotional that all of these things felt additional.

Annie, you really got to watch the Sex and the City finale. Let's, you'll come back for it. We'll be here for this podcast. Yeah. I just, spoiler alert, Carrie tries to break up with New York. It's perfect. Yeah. I think the other thing that we should note, and we should begin to wrap up here, but it's interesting to consider because you can't separate the art from the artist really with the show, because it was Lena Dunham from the beginning and it was Lena Dunham at the end. The years that this show spanned are pretty interesting years in anyone's life, I mean, from early 20s to the cusp of 30, basically. And what's interesting about a finale that is so definitive in so many ways that we've been criticizing throughout, there's a final.

a ambiguity and a struggle that you sense on the margins with her own role in a larger conversation with girls younger than her and women older than her. There's just like a drive-by an episode. There's the girl who's mad at her mom in the finale. There's the people who are moving into the neighborhood who are like the new generation version of Hannah and Marnie in episode nine of season six. I think it's ultimately a good thing that this was never as an artist, she was never settled. Like, she, it's still, like, freaking out about stuff. It is still so, it is not jaded in any way.

It is desperately trying to be good and interesting and dealing with everything, getting its arms around so much. And that's the spirit of the show. And I think one of the things we're bumping on is that that last image is the antithesis of that. And maybe she was just seeking peace because it does seem like this was a challenge to make the show. I have two positive things to say.

Yes, I'd like to hear that. So one is that. And I've been thinking about the title of this podcast as it stick the landing. And in the sense that it is a show that it is an episode that we're still arguing about and arguing with, however many years later, which was in a lot of ways the girls' experience. Yes, it was. It does stick that. And then there is something about one of my nitpicks with the show was, in rewatching it, was just like the complete absurdity of their parenting set up in. I mean, there's just no one there.

And raising a child at all times is really hard. But those first few months, it's like all hands on deck, you know? And no one's sleeping till 11. No one's sleeping. Yeah, especially she's pumping all the time. Like, again, so I was just like, where are the people? Like, what's going on here? This is absurd.

But, and like these two girls don't know how to do anything. No. But that means that the episode does take on like a one man's trash. It's Panic and Central Park, like almost bottle episode, almost dreamlike, is this really like happening quality? And I don't know that that changes the way that I still interpret the last image, but it does make me question whether I'm interpreting it the right way. And maybe there's different intention and maybe there is some sort of,

I know that like this isn't realistic, maybe there's longing in it. I'm not totally sure. So I could be getting it wrong, is like, guess the other way that I'm saying. I think that's a good way to sort of wrap things up because I think you can look back to the show and there are so many gifts that it gave us in terms of like incredible performances and careers and surprises. But in a way I felt it's interesting. I know I just said I felt more critical of the finale, but overall I feel so much more warmly towards the show. Amazing, amazing show. And not just amazing for what it is week to week. And I think people should

like honestly, if you're listening to this this far and you haven't done this recently, rewatch the pilot. It is so much better than I remembered. It is excellent. But it also felt like just the nature of our conversation, which is this deeply personal, polarizing weird thing that could be one type of show, one week and a completely different experience the next week, that season to season could take such wild stylistic and swings in style and swings in quality,

a show that could end with one person who is living. and breathing and performing the burden of this show on set but also in the press for six years being like this is what I want to do, that feels far away. It feels far away in TV. People don't get these chances anymore necessarily and they don't take them and run with them to the degree that she did. Too often we're sitting here praising, you know,

if Chris and I are in the same studio talking about Andor, we're not talking about like, whoa, that was a, wild swing. We're being like Tony Gilroy is a god and everything is precise and this is he has delivered a Star Wars product that is perfect for me. Yeah. This show was perfect to no one at all times, but sometimes perfect for everyone. And I think that's a pretty interesting, non-profitable way to consider something in the streaming era. It was really fun. Yeah. It was really, I know that we're painting this time as like a hellscape of the internet and of kind of conversation. Oh, we're the hellscape now. I mean, it's, you know, we're all growing and evolving the

hellscape together. But it still, it was a little bit monoculture, at least like HBO monoculture. And it was fun and engaging. And it engaged a lot of people, whether, you know, in bad faith or good faith or in anger or in celebration or in provocation. And that was cool. And it doesn't feel like people were still yelling at each other instead of yelling next to each other. Yes, both yelling. Yes, exactly. Yeah. We were still thinking, I think there was still some, the level of cynicism was not the way it is now. There was still a sense that you could change someone's mind or that you could show them your true self and have them recognize the value of that in an online forum. I don't think that's true anymore. Yeah. And I also think that, and this is a perfect segue for watch big picture crossover stuff, and we've even touched on it before. Like, there really is no indie film of TV. Everything goes through the larger machinery, which I understand. The other thing, though, that there isn't a lot of in TV, and this is not indie TV, this is HBO. But young people, like, if you switch to the music industry, often, like, people can make their own recordings, they release independent records, they find their voice, and then the major labels come in when they feel they're ready or when they're ready to go widescreen or make bigger music or whatever. This is a show made by a 24-year-old, who is empowered to do all of it as a 24-year-old with great help and a great crew and all of that. That's pretty unique.

I think primarily shows about youth are made by people who have experienced it and come out the other side. And so every decision that we see, if this show was made by Lena Dunham in her late 30s, every decision that we see Hannah and Jess and Marnie and Shoshana make would be predetermined with that backwards-looking sense of scale and what it meant and how some things were actually important. Even if it was done with the spirit of girls, I feel like that thumb would be on the scale, right? Right. This is just a, this is just a, I've said it before, just tweeting through it. Yeah.

Things felt absolutely existential because that's how things feel when you're that age, right? It was, it is a very special show. That's the other thing. It's still really funny and really well made. You know, whether or not they got everything right, I just, I enjoyed be watching it. So there's, there are, there are finalities that, you know, that negatively impact one's impression of the entire show, there's,

there's finalies that, you know, you know, back, I referenced these things a lot, but like when Newhart ended with those like, oh,

it was all a dream. No one was like, I can never watch season three of Newhart again knowing it was a dream. Also, they were like, I could never watch

season three of Newhart because I didn't tape it on my VCR. Right. But so the categories that, that when Bill and I were talking about this podcast, that he gave me,

that maybe we'll sort of always go through at the end of these shows, he was like, there's five types the finales. The five finalees you meet in heaven are held, depending. One, they landed the plane. Everyone's happy. Great job. Two, they took a big swing and it was super fucking polarizing. Three, they fucked it up. Okay. Four, they limped to the finish line and it just kind of dribbled away.

Five, it didn't seem like the plane was landed, but in retrospect, oh my God, everyone safely on the ground. I think this is, they took a big swing and it was polarizing. I agree. Which seems like I'm really curious now what other finale is are going to go. I mean, that's why I'm going to listen to this podcast. Great job. Great idea for the podcast. Hey, thanks. But I think a lot of finales are two, actually. And to go back to the point that you started with, which is how this TV, this show bridges like a lot of TV eras. I think when it started, there were fewer take a big swing and it was polarizing finales. And by the end, it was kind of like what you had to do. as a prestige show.

So you could also argue that they both landed the plane and fucked it up because they gave you the two episodes before where they landed the plane perfectly and then they fucked it up. But I think that counts as big swing. I think the thing that's going to remain confounding

and maybe make the girls finale be unique is that this show, I think the audience was primed for a polarizing swing. This show polarized. Yeah. From the second it premier to polarize. Yeah. And one of the things that was remarkable about it is that even though, you know, I've been talking about like reactionary defensiveness or talking back to the internet stuff throughout the show, fundamentally, to your point, Lena Dunham kept taking her clothes off metaphorically and literally throughout the show. And it was, you know, I always caveat the word brave when talking about making a TV show for HBO. But yeah, there was a boldness, let's say, in the storytelling episode to episode season to season. So a polarizing finale makes sense.

for girls. What I think people had trouble articulating is polarizing like this. This is not the turn that we were ready to even argue over. Like there just hadn't been this such a wide swing towards, as you said, small C conservative family values. Right. That the show didn't even, I mean, the way that Elijah talks about New York in relation to the rest of the world, just like this show lives in New York where we don't do those things. And as soon as she leaves, leaves New York, she's just consumed with being a mother in quote-unquote the right way. That still rankles. It still surprises. Yeah. I don't know. I know in a way it works perfectly for this show, but for this show only. Because what is the show, if not us arguing about it? Yeah. And a head

scratcher. Yeah. So it died as it lived. Yeah. Right. So maybe it did stick the landing. This is interesting. I don't, in the spirit with which it launched, That's the thing. Yeah. If it's a chaos plane from the minute it leaves, what do you think? This isn't going to be a landing where everyone in 33C applauds. That's very true. So I think you've created a new category here.

Okay. Which is, was this even a plane? What were we doing for six years? My God, I can't believe we're back on the ground. Yeah. But it was consistent. It was, yeah. We got there.

Wow, we solved it. Okay, great. Kai, what was this? Like 20 minutes? 40 minutes? Yeah. A good one. Amanda, you can always listen to Amanda on The Big Picture and Jam session. It is a pleasure in these rare instances we get to podcast together. I think we should do it more. Thank you so much for having me. This episode of Stick the Landing was produced by Kai McMullen and Kai Grady, and our theme music was composed by my good friend, Giancarlo Volcano.