The Prestige TV Podcast - Did ‘The Office’ Stick the Landing?

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Andy Greenwald is joined by Rembert Browne to discuss “Finale,” the series finale of ‘The Office.’ They open by describing their relationships with the beloved NBC sitcom and how impressive it is that ‘The Office’ has remained a centerpiece of popular culture so many years after it finished its run (3:58). Along the way, the two explain how the show “ended” multiple times throughout its nine seasons (21:12). Later, they talk about their complicated feelings regarding the final episode and how it tied up nicely in some ways and missed the mark in others (47:44). Finally, they answer the titular question: “Did it stick the landing?” (70:13). Host: Andy Greenwald Guest: Rembert Browne Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Theme Song and Other Music Credits: Giancarlo Vulcano Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. From Diversity Day to Casino Night, from Scranton, Pennsylvania to Robert California, hold on to your chili pots and declare bankruptcy. This is Stick the Landing, the Office. I am excited to be joined here in the studio today by an old friend, a dear friend, a brilliant friend, a Grantland friend, a writer who, and I'm quoting him here, says he's writing a book. Rembert Brown, Rembert, welcome. Andy, I am thrilled to get to just sit like six feet away from you. We haven't done this in a while.

And just like look at you, talk to you in front of some other people, but I'm pumped. Because I actually, when you texted me, being like we should do what we're about to do right now. I was like, whof, talking in front of a microphone. I haven't done that in a minute. But then I was like with Andy. Yeah, we used to do this a lot. We used to do this. We haven't done this since, like, the office was off the air for only two or three years, as opposed to 10 years.

That's called a segue. But, see? I still have some skills. So we're doing the office today. This was on the original plan for this series because it's 2023. The show went off the year in 2013. The show has never really left the zeitgeist, thanks to the miracle of the streaming revolution. I believe it was suits before suits was suits on Netflix.

I think we have some data here that it was like the number one most watched show in 2020 on Netflix. The last year was on Netflix before it was sucked back up into the larger NBC Universal Shineheart Whig Corporation. Big pandemic show. The show airs now on Peacock or streams on Peacock. But also, people keep discovering it. And the legend grows. There's a whole cottage podcast industry about it. Cast members podcast about it, rewatch, published books about it,

Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey, Chief among them. One thing that's interesting to look back on a show that continues to be beloved, that continues to be in the culture that is 10 years old, is that it's a little bit rosy. People remember the things that they love as they should. I don't hear many people talking about the finale. Yeah, it's kind of like, I was thinking of this driving over

and the dates that it was on 05 to 2013. That's also like the rosiest era of Obama. Like, things were good. Things were fine. It really represents. Folks were happy. And, you know, I kind of don't like to think about the end of Obama either because the doomsday was connected to it.

What happened? I don't want to talk about. I don't remember. I also don't. don't remember. So we're talking about the show, the finale aired May 16th, 2013. It was called, want to tell everybody? The actual finale?

It was called finale. It was called finale, part one. Classy. And finale part two. You got it. Before we get into it, I think we should give some more context to why are you here, remember? What's your relationship to the beloved NBC sitcom The Office? I would never classify if I'm writing out the list of adjectives to describe me.

I would not put TV watcher in like the top 10. Is it too late to reschedule, kind of or are we good? And I say that because I don't, I often don't do it in real time. I sometimes, you know, wait on a consensus to grow around me. Sometimes I'm early, but that's not what I pride myself on. I remember the office coming out, but I wasn't really like in 2005, which was my senior year of high school. Like I had so many other

Like my schedule was packed I just didn't have a lot of time To just sit and watch Network television That's not how I was It's not how I was moving You were too popular You were having too much fun

I was moving I'm trying to get into college That's not the case of my senior year But we can But we haven't done friends in ER yet So it's cool But I felt like I knew that there was a collection of kids

That were watching it While I was in college I think I was it was kind of like at Grantland with Game of Thrones where like everyone was talking and writing and making things about Game of Thrones and I had never seen an episode but I had like gotten information. Can I confess something to you? Yes. I never watched it. You never watched it? I knew it. Not once. That's how that's kind of how I feel about what was happened with the office which is like I knew who these like I knew who Dwight Shroop was. I understood what was going on with Michael Scott.

I didn't really know many of the plot lines, but I was taking it in, not until I moved to New York. Okay. 2009, have my own place with one of my best friends, and there's just like a lot of post-recession downtime because you don't have any money to do anything. And that's when I really got into the office.

But this is already interesting because just the idea of being able to be aware of a show intimately to the point where you knew character names and you kind of got the bit, that's already like, that's a post-internet, post-social, or beginning social media type of experience with a show, right? Yeah, it was, like I understood the kind of documentary nature of it. Like the episodes, you know, sometimes you're just like in other people's dorm rooms and something is on it.

It's like, oh, like, they're looking into the camera. I think I understand. But I'm like, I'm not, I'm not asking any questions. I'm just like whatever I kind of pick up along the way. So yeah, not until like 2009, not until season five. Did I then go back and like catch up in real time? Was it casual to you? Or was it like, because there's the nature of it being like, this is available to me?

Yeah, I think some of it was just like we can just watch all of it. Yeah. And it's like really soon. And did you? You went back and you just, you crushed taking. That in 24. I remember your 24 thing. No one to see more episodes of 24 than you.

Yeah. I was probably doing my second rewatch at 24. I was like, let's lighten it up every six episodes. I call that a 48. I think, see, I came out of differently because I was older, but also I was, were you a fan of the original, the British office, the Rick, the Reiki. I did not watch any, a single episode of British Office until the pandemic.

Interesting. And then were you like, oh, or did you, or was it so different? I just think, you know, I was probably just like such a patriot during those years. I didn't want to engage. That's right. Especially like in the post-Obomb years. Yeah, that's what it really got like. So my relationship to the show was exactly what everyone expects it would be in that it was super snobby.

Like, when I, a couple years after I moved to New York, the word about like this incredible show was starting to bubble. but you couldn't see it until these DVDs were released. And so then the British Office was so influential because it felt like a completely different kind of comedy. That was a big DVD. It was a huge, it was like, you guys got to come over and watch this DVD. That's a big DVD. I'm not even going to look at the face Kai as making right now,

but I can imagine it's similar to when people talk about dinosaurs and what they actually looked like. They were related to birds. There was a separate Blu-ray player for DVDs. Brother, it was not a Blu-ray. I was not Bill Gates. This was a DVD. It was not a Blue Way, Brave brother.

This was the kind of DVD that also played on, you know, like the first Xbox. Yeah. If you were lucky. Yes. And the thing about that first office that was so incredible was that it was so savage and it was so non-sentimental. And it was also done after two seasons and a Christmas special. That was it. There were, I don't even have in front of me, I think there were.

essentially 12 episodes, maybe seven, eight hours of the office. We're about to talk about the finale of a show, and that was episode 201. It's nuts. It's completely different. And so then the American version felt very cynical and very forgettable. And the only reason I knew about it was because my old college buddy was cast as Jim Halper. Oh, yes. Which was...

This wrinkle that I forgot. So at my college reunion, wait, was this 10 year? Five. Five year reunion. It's a very merry place. People come back. John came, and we're going to get into the finale, I promise.

But so John was in, we were in the same sketch comedy group. Yes. And as one is in the late 90s. And actually letting John into the group, because he's two years younger than me, was a big deal because people were like, this guy's kind of a jock. Yeah. Like, what's he doing here?

But maybe he'll add a different energy. Dude, that's Jack. Little did we know that he actually was a jock. It just took a couple decades. So John was a good friend, and we did all this comedy stuff together, and we stayed in touch after college. And he was little did we know at the time in college that he was going to auditions. Like, he wanted to be an actor where we were like, this is funny to make jokes. He was like, I'm going for it.

And at that reunion, we were talking on the steps of Lyman Hall. Shout out. big theater department hive at Brown University. And he was like, the craziest thing happened. It's my dream came true. I got cast in the American version of the best comedy show ever. And he was like, it's a dream. And we're never going to get to make more of them.

But I got to do this. And I feel pretty good about my career. And I was like, ha, ha, that's great. But yeah, we're all rolling our eyes, like American versions of things. It's never going to last. Yeah. I was wrong.

He was wrong. But not at first. Because the first episode of the show, which I recently rewatched, is unrecognizable from the show it became because they just kind of did British version karaoke. Yeah. And Steve Carell is amazing. Actually, the cast was and is amazing, and we'll get into that.

But it's really remarkable to see just so starkly why the original conceit of the show and version of the show would never work. Not at all. It's kind of mean. Yeah. It's very, very uncomfortable way before, like, Nathan Fielder became a thing. It's just almost excruciating. And the more amazing thing about the show, even more amazing than the casting, was the subtle tweaking for the American audience in terms of a workplace isn't hell in the American model.

The workplace is your family, which was true at Grandland. But it's also just like that snark didn't match the American era that. we were in. It was like we were we were coming out of one snarky era to the hope era and there was something about a show where it was just like especially when I got to in the recession it was just like yeah like you know you just end up kind of caring about your co-workers because everyone's kind of just struggling and trying to figure it out. Yeah at least they have a job. Yeah it's like having a job is like a thing like it you know it did create a war a warped relationship. to office culture, but I do think the window that it was on was a perfect window for that show,

that type of show, like the tone of that. Of what it became? Yeah, the absurdity mixed with the earnesty, you know. Do you have a moment? Because, again, I think it's also representative of the era and the type of show it was that it's the kind of thing where it's on and it's very pleasant and there's a lot of it. And people are talking about it, you're going to dip in. Was there a particular?

character plot line, or maybe better to ask you more generally, like, tone that the show hit that drew you in. You know, I grew up on, like, the black sitcoms of the 90s living single Martin. It was very funny because the one show that broke that mold in my home was we were a Frazier house. You were a Frazier household? Like, Frasier Hive. Okay.

And, you know, they were cranking out 24 hours. episodes. They were given us, they were crossing the 200 episode mark. Absolutely. And it, you know, it had that slight sitcomy procedural nature, but there was like, it hit different watching it in season three, because it's like, you understand

like what's going on in the world. And I remember very quickly, not just about a single character, but like pretty early into watching it, like having that investment in eight characters, like instantly. And, you know, there would be moments where it's like where I felt like I was leaning into one, but there was something about Frazier in my life. And also like Golden Girls. Just like jokes per minute are just like vibrating at a very high level. And I think kind of what the office represented

in that moment was almost kind of what Chappelle did. Like the Chappelle. show just became this quotable sheen. And it left it escaped just like the Chappelle world. It just became part of popular culture, the mannerisms, the like all of this things.

I had the DVDs of that too, by the way. That was the biggest DVD. Yeah. Chappelle season two. But I kind of feel like the office did that too, which was just like the banter was just so perfect in a way where it didn't seem like they were trying hard.

felt like the characters were so fully fleshed out the way the conversations and the antics were happening. It left a mark really early on. I think it's worth noting that, yeah, like Greg Daniels, who adapted it and who had worked with Conan O'Brien and was one of the Simpsons, like one of those legendary Lampoon type guys, kind of straddled the two worlds of the time in an amazing way because he came from a more traditional sitcom background, and I'm sure there were people involved in the show who were more versed than that. But he also did some things completely new that I think were underappreciated at the time. One was really embracing the aesthetic of the show and finding an office park that made sense somewhere,

I don't know where it was, somewhere in L.A., and then setting up people's stations in that office and then having them sit there all the time. All the time. And the cameras are moving around and picking up whatever they pick up, which led to the now much imitated, the Jim Halpert look or the side look. And that was all in the British office, but because it's an American show, more episodes, more story,

there were more characters. He also populated it really well with people who didn't necessarily know when they showed up in the first season, if they were there in the first season, or if they were filled in retconned in later, they didn't know that they were going to have big parts and something that they would be podcasting about

for decades to come. They took a flyer. They were there. What can they bring to it? The next thing he did was hire, incredibly interesting and young writing staff and let some of them be on the show too. B.J. Novak was a writer on the show.

Mindy Kaling is a writer on the show. It's kind of more done now, I think. That's more understood that maybe it's the SNL model, too, and Greg Daniels has a history there. Maybe you're hired as a writer, but maybe you get on camera too. All of this led to a feeling of a show that was more of a community than maybe some of the shows that we grew up with.

I think the single-cam mockumentary thing also matters. Because in a multi-cam tradition, and Frazier was a multi-cam, like it's famously the greatest job in showbiz because you show up three times a week. You do a table read, then you do a dress run, then you do the show. The office, you're there the same hours you would be if you were on a movie set, and stuff's just going to emerge between people. You're going to spend time together, and you're going to sink in with it, which is also maybe why it resonated with people who were sitting at home during a recession

or sitting home during a pandemic. You know, I do think that, and this is something I was thinking about as we were talking about the finale and then the, you know, kind of the multiple semi-finalies of the office. It's like, whose show that conversation of like, whose show was it? And at different points throughout this show, like, there were moments when I was like, well, yes, this is like the Michael Scott show. And that was only intensified by the kind of like pop culture icon that Michael Scott was having even more than Steve Correll. You know, that's a real person. There were also moments where it felt like every week we were getting like a new piece of Dwightism into the, you know, the cultural lexicon. And that was like a whole interesting thing.

Beats became really popular. Beat salads were not on menus. Yeah. People were living in, in barns. You know, and then there's also, like, this is a Jim and Pam show. Like, this, like, this show, like, wouldn't have that same element without this, will they, will they not? Love Story for at least, you know, the first four or five seasons. And I feel like that's, you kind of see that in those different finale moments.

I don't know if you want to talk about. but in the three different kind of finale moments, I left it being like, oh, like, well, if you end it here, you're making like a completely different, like, statement about what the whole point of this show was. Well, that's one of the interesting things to come to, and it's as good a pivot as any to say that, like, one of the experiments that we're kind of doing with this podcast

is, like, if you look at a show only by how it ended, you're kind of changing the lens in which you look at a TV show, which is to say, like, well, wait, what was it, actually? Not when you just look at pilots, what could this be, what could this become, how exciting this is for everyone. But like, wait, what story were we telling? And how are we going to tell it? And how did we do? A long-running sitcom, up until around the time of when the office went off the air, didn't really owe us that much. You know, I mean, Cheers is an obvious antecedent to this, both in the tenor of it, some of the DNA. Like, it's Mike Scher who made his name on the office and then went on to make Parks and Rec and the good.

place, and also played Moes Shrut, by the way. Cheers is his favorite show. And so there's some Cheers DNA. The Sam and Diane, Will They, They, or Won't They, is obviously excited as a precursor to Jim and Pam. But Cheers, when they were done, they were done. But the bar stayed open. Yeah.

Right. And then they went to Seattle. And then one of them went to Seattle. And we should talk about how this show almost went to Shrewd Farms. There was a spinoff pilot called The Farm, Cast and Shrew. shot. I've heard of this once, but never... Thomas Midditch of Silicon Valley was the co-star.

And in fact, the footage that they deemed usable of that was folded into a season nine episode called The Farm. But that was... Yes. They were trying to fraser it. I mean, I understand why anyone would try to fraser it. We might try to fraser it later. It's just hard.

Is frasuring? Does that mean that all of us in the studio will go out for a little sniffer of sherry when we're done? Is that frasuring it? Or just like self-reasing. sabotage. Oh, ultimately self-sabotage? Okay. But as we entered into an era of more serialized TV, and particularly one that was fueled, as you correctly pointed out, by the will they or won't they? And then they did. It demanded a different kind of resolution. And the show kind of flailed

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only on Netflix May 8th. I always have down on my talking points here, this question of how did we get here? And so how did we get to this finale? So the show had a disappointing and mostly overlooked and not very well reviewed six episode first season. A lot of people point to the BJ Novak written episode Diversity Day is like, oh, the show has some teeth. That was season one? That was season one. It's amazing. It's also not what the office became. The show was renewed. This is, I think people have said this. I don't know if anyone officially at NBC has ever

declared this to be true, but the general consensus is the only reason the show got a second season after some middling ratings, middling ratings that all networks would murder for. Just absolutely. Middling ratings that were more. There were higher viewership numbers than the show averaged in season nine because that's where TV went over those eight plus years because Steve Corel was the star of Bruce Almighty. And NBC was like, well, he got him under contract. He might be a movie star.

Let's rock this thing. So it got a renewed. And there are other reasons, I'm sure, that they believed in the creative vision, blah, blah, blah. But that's anecdotally one of the reasons. The show kind of took off its second and into its third season. and all of a sudden, in a manner similar to what happened with Seinfeld, NBC almost canceled what became the foundational show of their, I thought, legendary forever, but now no longer existing Thursday Night Block. Season two, Jim Pam Roy triangle, right?

Hits kind of an apex. Yeah, yeah. Yes. There was still miles to go before anything happened. But I believe season two ends with the confession of love and then leads to the... Stamford, Connecticut chapter, brings in Rashida, brings in Ed Helms, which is also here on my sheet of, like, major cast story ofheavals. This cast just kept getting bigger and bigger. Just bigger. It's just like a family that kept growing. It's like my Thanksgiving's every year.

They just grow and grow and grow. Also like your thanksgivings, there is a sense of eyes might be bigger than your stomach in terms of with the show. They were like, sure, there's room. It's like, We're going to find at-bats for all these other people that we keep adding to this already swollen ensemble. There was like no salary cap. It was just like they had, and, you know, a lot of them weren't, you know, just like random people. It was like beginning to be like they were just bringing in famous people. They were just bringing in people. I mean, by the end, they were bringing in famous people to the point where I forgot that like Will Farrell was just on the show for a while playing a bad office manager named D'Angelo.

DeAngelo. I did not love. or need that character, but the fact that... They should have just introduced him as a person named DeAngelo, and the joke would have worked for it. I didn't need anything else. You correctly pointed out around that the show just became a ratings juggernaut. It became an awards juggernaut.

And it just became a cultural juggernaut. I think it was averaging like 18 to 20 million viewers in its third and fourth season. Then we reached an interesting point. This happens with many successful shows. And it's interesting to discuss in the context of a beloved comedy. It reached a point where... it ended three times. And we could talk about this.

I feel like as much as we're talking about finale, I think we should talk about the other times it ended and where the cultural conversation was around it at those times. The first time would be near the end of season six. And by the way, these were not like gentlemen's seasons. These were like 22, and this is the era of supersizing. Some seasons were 24, 25 episodes. Some of the episodes were extra long.

Like they were, they were. They were going for it. They were right. Like television. So much television. At a remarkably high success rate, I must say. There are moments when I was going back through it that I had sort of forgotten, even though they made me laugh and still did, like Stanley's commitment to Pretzel Day,

how that means everything to him. But also a moment that I will talk about forever, which was the job interview, when they're all being interviewed for the position in New York to go to corporate. job that eventually goes to Ryan the temp, who comes back with bleach blonde hair, pitching Dunder Mifflin Infinity, that at the end of that episode, Pam is doing a talking head about how, you know, she's just happy Jim is her friend again. She knows he's going to get the job in New York, and they never got the timing right. And then the interview is interrupted by Jim coming in and saying, hey, do you want to get dinner

tonight? It's really good. And I'm choking up thinking about this. It's really good. Jenna Fisher deserves all the flowers in the world for the whole show, but her performance in that moment when she chokes up and says, what was the question again? It's incredible.

It's absolutely incredible. Did TV peek in that moment? They talk about peak TV, but this is what TV peaked. They do talk a lot about peak TV. They do in this studio. Anyway, what we're getting to is, because if we wanted to do a podcast about nine years of television, it would be more than one.

Are we building to Niagara? We're building to Niagara, which is near the end of season six. Two-parter. Another two-parter, the wedding episode, the Jim and Pam wedding episode. And they did their goddamn best. They kept them apart for two years. They put Jim in Connecticut.

They had them date. When the show came back the next season, it was a secret. And they came back to season four. By this time, not only were they fully together and out and proud, she was pregnant. She was pregnant. And Mima wasn't having it. Me Ma'am wasn't having it. But, yeah, let's talk.

So the two-part episode, Niagara, is a perfect end to one version of this show. And that's six seasons in? That is six seasons in, yes. Like, we've already gotten that great proposal moment at the gas station. It felt like this was building towards, like, Jim and Pam.

And, like... And by the way, I was wrong. It was the beginning of season six, Episode 4 and 5, 2009. The reason that that's a very interesting way to end for me, because I'm pretty sure it ends, like, they're on that boat, and, like, her head is, like, on his shoulder. Apparently because my old buddy John had the flu.

Oh. And so their kiss, even on the boat, she just kisses his cheek. Oh, my God. Because she was trying not to become incredibly sick. But yes. And he just, like, looks out at the camera. I'm like, maybe you end the show right there. It's just like a really, like the legacy, like, I don't know if it becomes an important show,

but it's like a undeniably good show. Like, it's a show that never dipped. If the show, and I don't want to sugarcoat it, like, this was one of the best televised romances in history. Unreal. And the chemistry between John and Jenna Fisher was incredible, the casting, where they were as performers, and that they were just, again, this is really smart by Greg Daniels. like you watch those first two seasons, they don't look like TV stars. They look like maybe they work in Scranton.

And shout out, I'm from Wilkes-Barre. Like, I can say that. Shout out. I can't say that. They, no, you cannot. They, the journey that they went on is beautiful. The spirit of this episode, I almost called it a finale. It's written by Mindy Kaling, who had very strong opinions about the romance on the show with Greg Daniels.

It allowed everything that the show was good at to be absolutely, on tilt, like the best version of it. It took everyone to a party. My God, they had so many parties. It allowed everyone to drink. Everyone in this office had a major alcohol problem. It allowed the zaniness and the romance, whether it's like the burgeoning Andy and Aaron thing,

or it's Michael with Pam's mom happening in the background, Dwight actually being a ladies man. All of these things that have been percolating to be absolutely at their best and the romance to be absolutely pitch-perfect and sweet. And this may have been the last really good Jim prank. I don't know if it's not a prank, but as you're describing, the episode, they know that it's going to go wrong

and it's going to be taken over by the lunatics that they invited. So he pre-booked a boat trip to secretly get married privately before they get married in front of everyone. And lo and behold, that was the right choice because they do the Chris Brown Forever viral wedding me. Which is like such a timestamp. It's like might as well be like the Harlem Shake It's like so

It's like when I I rewatched it Yesterday and it was just like Oh my this is For this one night Me You and the Dance First of all that song Sorry still goes

Oh don't I don't at a wedding I would say this was I think Chris Brown was a less problematic You know Again a different It's a different era So not to interrupt you No please interrupt

But, you know, the version of both the staff and Michael Scott at the end of that episode, I also think I was okay with leaving it there, which was like, Michael is a bumbling fool, but means well. Means well. And loves these people and has given up, I mean, you can even, like, pull out, like, his own life is a little bit in shambles, but he cares about everyone else. He cares. He, like, ultimately this moment of, like, you know, he wanted his office to feel like a family and they actually came together and did something, which was both annoying and memorable, which is like a thing that happens at weddings, you know? And also for the staff, for the coworkers, it was like, yeah, they were excited about another party because they love to party.

but they actually like, Andy, like, Torres Scrotum. He did. He did. But even he made it down the aisle with her walker. It's not a show that necessarily is, like, saying much at that ending. But it was beautiful. But, wow, they really just, like, began that show and ended it. And it was a packet.

It was just really nice. And you don't really, you know, when you're on a long journey, a nine-year journey with something, it's very hard to tell when you've reached the peak. And the ability to have this actual wedding, it's not an actual wedding, to have this pretend fictional wedding, be deeply meaningful. Like, again, I choked up.

I watching it again. I loved it. I thought it's beautiful. It's sweet. It's kind. But the episode also has room for Kevin to find out that the hotel has destroyed his shoes

because they're unsafe. They're unsaved. They're unsaved. They're a biohazard. This works because the show was actually about the surprise ability for true love to flourish in the strangest of gardens. Okay, show's done. No, it wasn't.

Not even close. So I left the two-part Niagara watching it being like, that's where you end the show until I watched the second finale. And I was like, well, maybe that's where you're in the show. And also, you feel a little bit of, because there's a version of this podcast or any conversation about a finale where we rail against the corporate interests of NBC, universal, being like trying to stretch as much as you can, get more flavor out of the chewing gum,

and like do everything you can for more, more, more, more, which is the old model of TV and maybe one we're returning to because it was actually quite financially viable, unlike the one we adopted in it instead. But regardless, you could, one of the fun things about TV and watching it and then covering it and looking back on it is that you can kind of Monday morning quarterback and be like, oh, I can see why creative people were excited about the challenge. This is the, these are the facts on the ground. These are who's leaving the show. This is who's in the show. I mean, also, they're getting paid enormous amounts of money. But the idea of being like, okay, so what is the show when we've essentially taken two of our most dynamic characters and the most dynamic emotional storyline

and plateaued it? Because, and we're going to get to this when we talk about the final season, like, what are you going to do next? You're going to break them up? You better not. So there was one story left to tell in terms of the, you know, the momentum arc of the show as being about one thing, which we're not sure if it ever was. and that was the fact that Steve Carell wanted to leave now. It was time to... All these guys were under seven-year contract. Bruce Almighty three.

It was time. Seriously. The traditional broadcast contract was a seven-year contract. And so Correll signed it, and he honored it, and then he politely informed everyone that he would be done. I don't know if you all have seen, but this is the seventh season. This is in the seventh season. Yeah.

So I'm not coming back. So this is the seventh season of this podcast? Yeah. Thanks for being here. Sadly, the first six seasons were deemed unreleased by Bill and Sean Jeff. So Steve was like, I'm under for seven. Yeah. Season seven is my final.

Respectfully. Respectfully. I'm going to bow out. And was there like an implied? And maybe the whole thing should bow out too? I don't know that. I think he understood that it wouldn't. And I think that, again, there was a lot of feeling that.

creatively, like maybe we can figure out something else. Maybe we can repivit. And we'll talk about the decisions they made in a minute. But all of this built to an episode called Goodbye Michael in season seven. And the setup for that is that Michael is told everyone he's leaving. He's going to be with the amazing character of Holly, played by the brilliant Amy Ryan. Incredible.

Truly beautiful and sweet that they found someone, and this actress gave us this performance of someone who did the thing, thing that Steve Carell himself had done, which is how do you humanize a buffoon? How do you make it sweet instead of repellent? And she matched him. So he's moving to Colorado to be with her. He is trying to say goodbye to everyone in a short amount of time because he's also not told people that he's leaving.

He's told everyone he's leaving the next day, but he's leaving at 4 p.m. on one day. When I rewatched it and that part, kids dropped, I think I gasp. I think I forgot that he was leaving that day. I was like, oh, my. Oh, wow. Yeah, this is a very, this is about to make me cry by the end of the episode.

And this idea of the like personal interactions with the large cast as they could buy. With the piece of paper scratching people along. It's beautiful. It's brilliant. And they did it again in season nine with Daryl. Similarly, the walking down the aisle to forever and everyone dancing, they did it twice more

in season nine. Like, the first time they do this stuff. It's really good. So let's talk about this as a finale. When I rewatched it, I was like, okay, this doesn't need to be one of the shows where this is one person's show. But is there, like, yes, his story did feel unfinished. Did it need to necessarily get finished? But unclear.

But from the moment, Jim realizes that Michael is leaving. early, he's not coming back tomorrow, and Pam's nowhere to be found. Because she took herself to a secret workday screening of the King's speech. Yes. And he's having these sweet moments

with everyone in the office. He had like at really, you know, he was having that antagonistic relationship with Dwight and then writes him a letter recommendation. You know, even the silly ones like he like wants to still use the bailer. And he's shooting shots from, you know, like, I'm like, I'm not necessarily someone that believes the, the buffoon needs a redemption arc.

Like, I don't think that's a necessary thing. But it all felt worth it when you get to hear him talking about, like, taking the microphone off. And then you don't actually get to hear the. with Pam. I was like, well, that is just really... It's beautiful.

Outstanding television. But now, here's where we get to an interesting thing, because the office is rightly credited and celebrated as one of the greatest

ensembles in TV history. Greg Daniels was recently talking about it, and he said, he calls it the greatest cast ever assembled, which may be pound for pound, considering the numbers

that carry. It's a lot of pounds, and it might be... They were on a scale once in one episode. Speaking of being on a scale once. comedies change a lot because even when the show got sweet and soft

they're just making fat jokes about Kevin like with a violence up through the very end I feel like we don't do that anymore as a culture Yeah I think like you know That show and it's always sunny Like if they started before a certain date

They were allowed to say They were grandfathered in It's like this is a weird analogy But it's like baseball players wearing 42 Like if they were wearing it before they retired it But you can't just pull up and try to be Jackie Robinson Sorry. No, it's certainly not on this show.

But to belabor another sports metaphor, like this is an incredible ensemble, but this was a heliocentric show. Yeah. And fundamentally, all of the quirks from Phyllis and Oscar and Angela, up to Dwight, up to Jim and Pam, they work because they are not the sun. They are not the star.

Corell's performance, I'm going to go on record now, I think is underrated. I think it is underrated, even though people celebrated and he became hugely successful and famous for it. Because I don't think I understood in the moment what he was doing, both in terms of a balancing act of absolute attention drawing charisma and silliness and fun, but the low-key generosity of being a shot creator for upwards of 15 other people episode to episode. That is tough.

He's like a point guard. He was just just dishing. and floating throughout the office. Do you say offense or office? Both the offense and the office. It's not Grandlin anymore. We don't have to do it. But sometimes I'm just like, you know,

I'm also not a big, I'm fidgety. When I think of Steve Carell, I think, you know, like he's a buffoon, blah, blah, blah. But then I think of myself in the office, offices that I've been in. And then, you know, I don't. don't sit down for long. No.

I just kind of wander around and look at what people are doing, bug people. See how many drinks Juliet has under the desk. Yeah, just wander into the kitchen, you know. And I'm like, yeah, like, you know, being in an office is a very interesting thing. And him, him both being managed and him making decisions and him doing that balancing act and a lot of different balancing acts. because he had to do a bouncing act because he was still by the end, like a likable

character. It's incredible that he pulled it off. Maybe the better metaphor is one that I know absolutely nothing about, so I'm totally not qualified to, is like a symphony orchestra, meaning you have all these instruments, and it's not just that I'm saying this because there were a lot of people on the show,

I'm saying it because each instrument plays within a certain range. And over the first three seasons, you saw the people finding the range, but more importantly, you found the conductor figuring out how they play together. And, you know, there were some dips in season six and seven overall, but building up to this moment, this was a virtuoso performance of everyone involved, of how they interacted with each other. They played together for a long time. We knew what they brought to each other. And in the spirit of contemporary television, which is we're looking back in hindsight

where shows have to be about something, they have to have a beginning point and an end point or answer a question, this is the end of the show. It's simply the end of the show because one absolute train wreck of a weirdo became the world's best boss. It wasn't just on a mug he bought for himself. By the end, he was the world's best boss, and he walked away, and I think this is crucial, the work went on. The work went on. The great work of providing paper to northeastern Pennsylvania continued unabated. For me,

that works. Like, we'd already gotten threat level midnight, which is, like, maybe the greatest episode. I forgot about that. But I, you know, it was interesting, an interesting thing about what we're dubbing the second finale is that it wasn't at the end of the season. It wasn't even at the end of the season. They just like kept going. I think there were like four or five more episodes in that season. And I think it was intentional because I think they realized how seismic this was.

And they could get at least a few more episodes out of the absence. The aftermath of the absence. It's now there's not a star. Now there's a black hole. And then it also bought them the summer. to be like, what are we going to do here? I did not make it far, because by the time season eight,

and season eight is recognized as the low point by many people. I stopped watching it in real time. You walked away from Spader. I walked away from Spader, which is crazy, because I'm a big blacklist guy. Of course you are. But huge. It was just like, I don't,

It felt, in my cynical mind, it felt like they were just going to squeeze every little thing out of it. And, you know, I'm not, you know, I like Craig Robinson getting checks. Yes. I like a world where Craig Robinson is getting checks. Those Brooklyn 9-9 checks. I love, I love it. But just in terms of it feeling like a part of this, like, I love a really good run. I love a run in any part of society, like something that just feels like.

Like it's locked in. And I don't really care if you don't start on that run because I think it's cool to watch art find itself and be given the chance to find itself. But I do think the awareness of like, okay, like all runs end. And we keep finding some really nice ways to land runs after like the second one. It's just like, well, so is it not about the run? Is it more that this is so much of a brand that it's like almost, it's like, it's almost ignorant to, like financially ignorant to say now? Ultimately, yes. And it's different than other sitcoms in that the nature of the office put a spotlight on some of the things you're talking about.

An example I would use is a very long running show, MASH, like beloved number one show in the world, or at least in the country, the finale was for many, many, many, decades, the highest rated show ever other than Super Bowls. That show is about, you know, a field hospital during the Korean War. The Korean War did not last 11 years. But also, that show did not begin with the premise that the show is about the beginning, middle, and end of the war, nor did any of the characters who were, you know, army surgeons and things. They didn't have other goals and dreams or careers to ascend to or ways to be promoted. It was just that was the situation. Here's the comedy. The office gave us something different, which is like, Jim and Pam are frustrated.

There's the episode where they have fun looking at the wedding bands that she might hire for her wedding to Roy, and Jim's like, these people never gave up on their dreams. I respect that. It was about settling. It was about failure. But the American palette and also the nature of comedy shows on TV where we just grow to love them and we want them to win

and we become less willing to see them fail is about upward mobility and change. So, okay, so Jim and Pam get together and they get married. Great. Pam is no longer the receptionist. Now she's an office manager and she wears a blazer. Great. That allowed them to bring in Ellie Kemper, who was fantastic as Aaron,

probably the best late period addition to the show. Shout out Jake Lacey and Catherine Tate and all these other people who just came on just as the ship was sinking. It was impossible, and the longer it went on, you end up with these scenarios like, yeah, we all love Craig Robinson. And we especially loved him when he would come in for two or three jokes or scenes and episode. But then he's becoming a thing.

He's wonderful. Okay, great. He's in movies. He doesn't work in the warehouse anymore. Now he has a brand new office within the office who's never seen before. Now he and Jim are suddenly best friends and starting a sports consulting company in Philadelphia.

Like, wait, now we're in Austin. I don't know what's going. Like, it was... It was cute when they would go to New York and talk about how, and Michael's like the best pizzas here and it's Sabaro and Port Authority. It's like really good job.

But then when, by the end of it, when Andy Bernard is auditioning for a singing show and Aaron Rogers and Santigold are the judges, it's just like where, we used to say jumping the shark, but I feel like we could rename that with any number of things that happened in the last two seasons of the office,

not the least of which was the audition process of different bosses, including Idris Elba, and then ultimately, they brought in Catherine Tate, the British comedian, and I feel like someone in the main office of the show was like, we want it to be her.

Her energy is weird, She's unknown. This is going to really upend things. And NBC was like, that's cute. It's going to be spader. Then we'll get to this. We finally talk about the actual finale. The missing the off ramp to Goodbye Michael.

I understand why they did it. But I think you and I are in agreement that the show that we loved ends there. I agree. But when I was watching the actual finale, I was like, I'm not wavering. I don't think that I needed two seasons to get here. but in watching that finale, a thought popped in my mind, which was like,

maybe they were still figuring out the point they were trying to make. The finale was called finale. It was written by series adapter, essentially the creator of the American version, Greg Daniels. It was directed by Ken Kwapas, who directed the pilot as well,

May 16, 2013. That's cool. 51 minutes, they had to fight for extra time because they shot so much stuff. I can't believe it was a tough fight. I'm sure NBC was happy to give it to them. The description,

months after the premiere, past and present co-workers gather for a retrospective panel interview and a barnyard wedding. Let's get into it. Again, rewatched it. I remember the skeleton of it. Like, I knew Michael was coming back. They denied it up until the night of they fought it. They denied it. They said he was done.

They said he had refused to come back. I remember being, like, in real time, I remember being like feeling something when I saw him, you know. He looked, he was a little bit more salt and peppier, pepper work. He also looked like a movie star. Yeah, he looked rich. He looked real rich. And I remember it coming off of another good gym prank. I was like, well, that feels like something familiar.

After two seasons of stuff not feeling familiar. It's not just that it felt familiar. His comeback, both in terms of physically coming back and his line, make the episode worth it. He walks in as Dwight and Jim are getting into something, and Dwight says, I can't believe you came. And Michael says, that's what she said. It's really good. It's really good.

Like, I don't know if it justifies two seasons to get to that moment. No, but it's very sweet. But it's really good. But that's not the moment in the episode, which was like, huh, this is an interesting thing to consider is, you know, people are talking about what it felt like to watch the documentary of themselves. Yeah, this was the big thing that they finally stumbled on in the final season. They were like, well, okay, we are ending.

And for what it's worth, when we do these shows, we talk about like why the show ended. You and I have argued that it needed to end because it needed to end. Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey confirmed in the book that they just published about the show, I think it's called like the Office BFFs, that midway through filming season nine, Greg Daniels sat down the entire cast and said, NBC would like to extend us for two more years, making it mash length. Too much. Now, they weren't under contract, so it was going to be huge, huge raises for everyone, which I'm sure is nice. But he was like, I'm not sure, and I want to talk to you guys.

And to hear Jenna and Angela say it, they all kind of agreed that maybe it was, not only was it time to be done, it was time to give the writers a chance to finish it. and so thank you. They were right. But the thing was they were finally going to break the fourth wall and say, this was a documentary that was being filmed this whole time. They are finally done. And all of the questions about who was funding this nine-year 24-7 experiment in meta-documentary storytelling a la Frederick Wiseman,

we're going to put that on the table. It's done and it's airing. And it airs in the penultimate episode. And then the finale is one. year later. And we're not even going to get, you know, out of kindness and grace to you in our audience, we're not going to do what I had to do because I was recapping every episode of seasons eight and nine for Grantland. Every week. And I had to write about the time that Pam and Jim's marriage almost ends because of her flirtation with a boom operator who apparently has been

there the whole time. And I wrote a whole, one of the angriest pieces I've ever written about the emotional poochie that they were trying to put it. Like, I used to be an angrier, younger man. Anyway, all that's, we don't need to worry about it. They got to this point. And again, when you look at what was left on the carcass, this was the last one. This is the last story. Yeah. Was this is a documentary in Adair.

I still don't think it's something that ever really needed to be acknowledged. Like, this is just like a, just an element. I don't, like, I'm not someone that needs an answer for, for everything. This wasn't lost. It was fine. Not lost. But, you know, people are having mixed reactions to what it was like seeing. And a lot of it is kind of negative.

Some people are like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then it gets to Jim. And Jen says something paraphrased about, like, imagine getting a chance to go back and watch a tape of your whole life. Like, how amazing is that? And it's like a really interesting premise in, like, 2013. Because... Because... Because now we have it.

Because that's just, like, what our life... Like, we, I can go back and tell the story of my life from 2013 to now from my, like, my phone. Yeah. Seeing the mixed reactions to, you know, having basically a running, like, you know, dossier of all the things you did and said, blah, blah, blah. I kind of just, like, sat with it for a second when, and I think I, like, hit pause. I was just like, huh, like,

I don't know if that was a point that they were trying to make. But that is an interesting, you know, sentiment for that character to have because he was one of the characters

who was just like, my work, these people did become my family. Yeah. Like, he's a sentimental, like, memories,

loves, like, that type of thing. And, like, that did kind of, of stick with me and set with me a little bit. That sense of that.

I appreciate you taking the side of the artist. I think that that is when you're left with what you're, I mean, part of the job of a TV writer, especially in the trenches of network television, is you make chicken salad out of chicken shit. And what you have left for you is this one thing you haven't touched. Do it. Because otherwise, we're just repeating yourself over and over and over.

And there was a lot of repetition. I think the potentially more interesting thing there that they never could have done is that Jim and Pam are sad now. They work for the same place they've worked for 14 years. Their life peaked when a film

crew caught them flirting and then they had this romantic wedding and now they're never ever, ever, ever, ever going to change. And in fact, the show kind of steered into it near those last seasons by pointing out how the rest of the office thought they were kind of annoying and how perfect they were. And in fact, they became kind of annoying

to the crowd. But to the audience as well, but like, then it tried to have it both ways, being like, they became best friends with everyone. Even Jim and Dwight became best friends. But now they can move to Austin to pursue a dot-com startup or whatever with Daryl. So it was like trying to have it both ways.

And similarly with the doc crew, the thing that drove me crazy was, either it matters or it doesn't. Because if it does, and this idea that secretly they were friends with these people who were with them the whole time or that Meredith was going to college to get her master's degree,

that Jim in the penultimate episode reminds Pam that he loves her by having the crew make a DVD. Shout out to DVDs again, that she puts into the DVD drive of her MacBook of their memories together. So basically turns her into a viewer of the show. I read a recap that I thought was really smart that said that that removed our intimacy.

It put us in the audience one step further back that we thought we had a special, insight into their lives because we're following them into around corners and through windows. But in fact, there was a, we didn't have full access. And now they're watching themselves. And we're further away from them right at a moment when we should be getting drawn closer.

I think it was an interesting idea and it was an interesting framing for the finale, but I think it was deeply a failure. Because also, is that why PBS is bankrupt? Because they spent nine years on this? Yeah. I was just thinking about the Michael Dwight interaction.

And I'm like, I feel like, you could have thrown that interaction into an earlier episode, and we still get out of here in seven seasons. We still get out of here. And instead, we're doing all of this business, like where it's just TV finale business where it's like... Michael and Holly's wedding. Like, maybe we throw it's that, maybe.

Do a special. Well, honestly, I was like, you know, there were moments that I liked in not a ton. Like, there were some moments I liked in season eight and nine, just thinking about the direct. of these industries. I was like, they could have run off

to office movies. Movies. You want to pivot to movies. I'm not saying I want to, but, you know, or like you said, specials. I didn't need all the bloat.

No, it's, it distracted from the characters that we actually came up on because, like, it had always felt character-driven, and then they were kind of relying on this, you know, gags without the,

without the sun, what you were saying. It was just, like, it was just gag. It just felt like empty gags. And when things get bloated, they just get soft and squishy. And the thing about the finale is, and there are some clever moments, but they're retread moments. Like the guys do another Bachelor Party, and the stripper who is there in the Fun Run episode comes back.

And Dwight's whole thing is that he doesn't understand. She's not a waitress. The gals have a stripper come, but it's Meredith's son, played by the same actor who played him in season two. And so they're doing these little things. there was a reference to like that Dwight as office manager replaces Kevin with a guy that he got fired in season two

when Creed got to stick around. So there's some things that are amusing the Kelly Ryan thing with running off together. Oh, the baby. Giving the baby an intentional strawberry allergy reaction. I did have an eye roll when I was like, wow,

did they really like acoustic guitar us into the end of the show? So that's what I'm getting to. Like what? It's a, the problem with this episode, and I think that it was fairly well received at the time. I went back and everyone gave it kind of a pass because, A, it was better than the previous 30 episodes. B, they got Michael. They got Steve Correll back.

But C, everyone was like, well, it was nice to be with these people one last time. And finallies can coast on that, especially ensemble comedies because our enjoyment of them is spending time with them. But all of these beats to me rang really false. Like, Jim's brilliant master's stroke is to get Dwight and Kevin to become friends again. And I don't remember them being friends. And also, Dwight fired Kevin in this episode. So it's just this very cheap manufacturing of emotion at this panel to talk about the airing of the documentary. Aaron gets her birth parents.

And it's Ed Begley Jr. and Joan Cusack. And then they're at the wedding at the farm. Nuts, which, like, you can't add that quickly. It's sweet. And I, you know, there are a couple, there are a couple fun slash funny cameos from people who are amusing and probably fans. Like when Ed Helms' Andy character goes viral for crying at the auditions. And so we get Bill Hader as Stefan and Seth Myers imitating him.

There's also less heralded cameos, like many of the writing staff from Greg Daniels being the center of the photo that they take. in front of Pam's. By the way, low-key, terrible mural. Pam's an awful artist. To also...

It might work in Austin. That's right. Keep Austin weird with these broke-ass murals. I went to some of those soundbys. So, like, I think she might have an audience. I also feel like there's a little bit

of comedy torch passing because Colin Robinson, the energy vampire from what we do in the shadows, is that Shrewd farms at the wedding? My king. Just an extra. in the background kind of. He was an extra. I think he was cast in the farm spinoff.

All this goes to the end of Creed singing on acoustic guitar, well, these people who are friends for life cannot fucking quit this office. And it becomes a little insidious. All of a sudden it becomes this thing where I'm like, the point of the show was that work is deadening and that work is a cul-de-sac. And it tried to pretend that it's not a cul-de-sac. It tried to pretend it was cue the soundtrack,

Life is a Highway. And this is where we want to be with these people for the rest of our lives. Maybe that's our relationship to TV shows. But to see these 20 people still stuck in that room felt weird to me at the end. Did not feel good. Yeah. I mean, I think what it did, and I enjoy this. Like, I like being kind of left, not necessarily wanting more,

because I think the wanting more is what gives you extra seasons, but more just like, huh, now I can. like fan fiction. Head canon. You can do more yourself. I can just do, like the foundation is so strong. I don't need to actually

like find out what happened to Darrell. Like I can just think about the different directions that Darrell could have gone in and like and be completely okay with that. That strikes me as something of the moment that the show straddled as well, which is that

everything you're talking about that like everyone gets a happy ending. Everyone gets more story than they even can handle. Kind of is a, either it's a precursor or a harbinger or it was just the wave of like everyone's parisocial relationship to culture. Yeah, 100%. You know, that like, I need to know these people are okay. I need to know what they're doing. I need to know what they will be doing. We need to like touch every base to make sure we all feel safe here. To me, the greatest sin of the finale, and don't worry, we're not going to end on such a downer. I kind of want to talk about what happened with the show and how it's how it's, how it's, survives and why it survives in people's memories. But I think the show got itself wrong at the end.

It ends with this idea that this, this is a quote, this stupid, wonderful, boring, amazing job. And Pam says, there's a lot of beauty in ordinary things. Isn't that the point? And I appreciated that one of the critics at the New York Times, Mike Hale pointed out, I'll just read his piece. This was his day after piece. If that's what the writers believed, fine. But the The real point was the unusually expansive and detailed presentation of a large cast of extraordinary eccentrics, screwball versions of familiar workplace types. It was always the damaged characters who made the show worth watching, and it was the ingenious performance of Mr. Corell and Mr. Wilson that made it distinctive. So the show wasn't ordinary, especially by the end when celebrities are paragliding in for 10 minutes of cameo. Why was Eric Rogers there?

Why is Dakota Johnson in the finale? Was she already had done? Did she already done 50 shades of gray? she joins the cast for the finale? It's bizarre. But the show got itself wrong at the end, which I thought was so interesting. It had already gotten itself right, like twice.

Yes. Yes. Like, that's, like, of course it got it wrong the third time. That's just how it goes. It's also worth noting that, like, in the categories that we have for this podcast, when we talk about finale, like, what was the audience hoping for?

Like, what questions were there? What expectations did they have? What needed to be resolved? The answer is, after nine years and 200 episodes, there was nothing left, which is really hard. So again, credit to how hard they worked to give us anything. But it was kind of a revelation of how bare the cupboard was that they couldn't even, the Dwight Kevin thing is an example of it.

They had to gin up some last second things just to juice one more squeeze. Squeeze one more juice? Squeeze one more orange. Famous, North-Jewan Pennsylvania, famous for its citrus. So I feel like I've been thinking about this for years, you know, like as we live in the sequel and world of like, oh, something works. Let's do more and more and more. Squeeze all that we can out of this IP until it gets to a place where it feels like the only

things that exist are just already built on pieces of IP. I wasn't thinking about that between 2005 and 2013. A show ending like that. like feels right. Like it going too far. Or just like, I think the modern day reaction is like, wait, that show I just heard I just found out about it's on season seven. Yeah.

You know. But it felt like a lot of times when that happens, it's because the piece of art or the TV show or whatever, like, can't. stand on its own. And this was one of those things that stood on its own better than most. So it like didn't need to like play the games that other things do to just like keep

going and going and going. So I find it very interesting that they fell, to me, fell into the trap of not understanding. I guess maybe through the lens of like legacy or like how shows are thought about. You in that

show earlier, you have a lot of open stories, but it's thought of as like, oh, like, this was like kind of one of those, like, perfect shows. It's a previous generation show, not just because now it's probably more than that, but it was, despite all the innovations we talked about the top, despite how absolutely vibrant and risk-taking and exciting it was. I mean, that relationship stuff felt exciting when we were watching it. It's an old-fashioned show that would run forever, and, you know, hopefully people don't

remember the downside of its career, like a Hall of Fame athlete. And that's true. That's a place to steer the conversation, but because the seasons after Larry David left Seinfeld weren't very good. The finale is one of the most polarizing of all time, and I'm sure we'll get to it. Does that in any way damage the show's legacy? No, we just don't really talk about it. It's like when you forget that, like, Shaq was on the Suns. It's like, it happened. Probably didn't need to happen. But we as a culture, do know how to just focus on the good times. It takes a minute.

It takes a couple years. Yeah, but I do think that is part of the office's legacy, which is like, there is enough good to, like, whatever, like, run of the show is your favorite. You can just pretend like that was the whole office. Absolutely. And my main takeaway from this wasn't that the finale was worse than I remember it, because I think it was. My main takeaway was, God, I miss having shows like this.

I really, really missed having shows with the legs that this show had to spend time with, to develop, to find its voice, and then to just coast with and when it's absolutely firing on all cylinders. And to have something that had the budget to sustain. I mean, did it save money by having four or five people in the credited cast and then 14 other people in the office on retainer? Yeah, but that's a huge cast. and we just don't get that anymore. And we also just don't get shows with this budget, with this framing, with this ambition anymore. We get short seasons.

Or we get a show, you know, our buddy Shea Serrano show, Primo, influenced by this clearly. Yes. It's on Amazon Freevi. That should be on NBC. The closest thing we have to it, and I'm grateful that we have it,

is Abbott Elementary. And Quinta point blank says she loves the office. So that's why she made her show the way she did. That's why she made it a mockumentary. That's why she hired Randall Einhorn to direct the pilot because he did dozens and dozens of episodes to the office. So we get fits and starts of it, but we don't get this. But that is a measurement of the legacy of the show,

which is like it put the battery and a bunch of other people's backs to arguably make, ranging from different to improved versions on that. I mean, I do think that is one of the things art can, is one of the more powerful aspects of art, it makes other people want to go make more art. Like, that is a beautiful legacy of a show. But I also think it's, I think that the problem that we're faced with,

that it isn't really a problem. That's the wrong word. The circumstance we're faced with is, in our current world and streaming world and the way everything is, maybe we don't get another office because we'll never not have the office. That is.

Any new show is competing with, let's say seven seasons of the office. New shows can be better than eight and nine. But this show has been, its audience has limited itself because it's now been pulled back in under the peacock umbrella, not nearly as many people have peacock as Netflix.

Sorry, Kai, I cover your ears. But it's true. But it's always going to be there and people are discovering it. My older daughter, who was born the year this show ended, just asked me about it because her friend in fifth grade

has been watching it. And I was like, wait, why aren't you watching the office? What a delightful thing that would be for me. There's lots of legacies. And I think another one, which kind of you were just saying, is the office had time to figure itself out. 100%. This is a key point.

By the time the office figured itself out, that were 20, 23, that show would already be canceled. Yep. You know? And that is ultimately one of the things that when new shows are trying to compete with the legacy, they're also, it's like being told you have to go plastic. And you're being compared to Jay-Z in 1998 or Usher with Confessions. It's like, no, like, this is this is now, but like, you got to give me something to at least like, you know, so this idea of like, not only the characters, but a show has to show up in its like absolute most perfect fully formed version from the pilot. it's not real, you know, and it's not fair. We end the show by going through these categories that Bill

came up with. Bill Simmons? You know, do you know? Bill Simmons. Asking the question that the title of this podcast demands, which is, so did this stick for landing? And I feel like this is going to be obvious. We agree on this.

According to Bill and I agree with them, there are five types of finalees. Number one, they landed the plane. Number two, they took a big swing and it was super fucking polarizing. Number three, they simply fucked it up. Four, they limped to the finish line. Five, didn't seem like they safely landed it, but in retrospect, maybe everyone was fine. I think we both agree that it's four.

They limped. Yes. But I think that the show is really noteworthy in the context of this podcast and this conversation because really, a moment ago, I said parisocial relationships with characters as a negative,

which I kind of think is true. But parissocial relationships with television shows is meaningful to everyone who's ever watched a television show in any generation. And the relationship with the office mirrors a relationship in that you kind are not sure about someone, you kind of keep giving them second, maybe third chances, and then something sticks and it grows and it develops. And the good times are really, really good. Do all relationships slash television shows last forever? No, they do not. But with time, in this case, we've given it a decade,

you don't remember the fights really, right? You don't remember the bad times. And you can look back and be like, boy, I'm really grateful for that. Not to get... Overall, this has been a more emo conversation about a show that involved Kevin spilling chili. That's what you called me for. But that's why I brought you in.

Because it's 10 years, and this show does bracket a period of time for a lot of people, and it was really touching to go back and be like, well, one, this show really stands up. The finale doesn't, but the show does. But also, it was kind of a beautiful time, even though it was a different time in every

viewer's life. It was also in something I'd forgotten you know in the pre-streaming like getting all of your television and content from streaming it was also one of those last shows that was just like seemed to always be on some channel yeah it was one of the last big syndication sales

you know it would be on your local Fox affiliate six to seven and so like I would go from college where there were either DVDs happening that we were rewatching and but then I would go home where there was cable and there was also office to watch. So it did it was

it had a kind of ever presence about it that you know, that's just not the way, you know, when I'm home now it's like, you know, let's fire up some NCIS, you know? But because it's just like that kind of procedural but the idea of like oh yeah, like I can

it's any time of the day. I can just catch a random episode of the office. And that be exactly what... You know your bearings. Feels like a good time. And it feels good. Feels real good, man. Nothing wrong with feeling good.

We fixed it. We fixed TV. Rambord, what a pleasure to talk to you about a beloved television show. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for... We talked about Aaron Rogers twice. Didn't even get political. No.

Do you want to, like, go off air for a second? And just like, really, really, like, red pill? When I saw his face, because he had... has a different haircut. I did like a triple take. I was like, I mean, this episode is wild, but that's not Aaron Rogers. And then when he came back, I was like, oh, that was. It's 100% Aaron Rogers.

That was Aaron. And then he's in the finale, auto-tuned. And honestly, Scranton is pretty Trumpy these days. Oh, really? So, yeah, well, we'll come back. Just talk about the fate of Northeastern Pennsylvania. Thank you, Andy. I missed you.

Thanks, buddy. This episode of Stick the Landing was produced by Kai Mekmullen and Kai Grady, and our theme music was composed by my good friend, Giancarlo, Volcano.