The Prestige TV Podcast - Eight Big Questions About 'Sex Education'

Episode Date: November 2, 2021

Juliet Litman and Joanna Robinson sit down to discuss the Netflix show 'Sex Education' in the wake of the show's third season as they look ahead to the future of the show and what it might bring next. Hosts: Juliet Litman and Joanna Robinson Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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But today, we are not talking to reality TV. I am joined by Joanna Robinson, one of the co-hosts of the Ringerverse. Hi, Joanna. Hi, Juliet. How are you? I'm great. I'm thrilled to be doing this with you. We are here to discuss the Netflix hit series sex education, which is very popular,

as three seasons in, has been sitting on the top of their Netflix rankings for like six weeks. And yet, not many people seem to be talking about it. Well, first of all, it's always a mystery to try to figure out. out what's popular at Netflix, right? Even though they have their rankings, they're the ones who put them out, so I'm always skeptical. But this does seem to be,

here's my best evidence that this is actually popular. It's been greenlit for a four season. Right. Whereas Netflix is really quick to cancel things after two seasons if they're not going. And it's an ensemble show. So there's like a lot of people in it, which means it's not that cheap to make.

I believe they shoot on location, not infrequently in England, so like outside of the studio. And it has Jillian Anderson, who is a recent Emmy winner. So it's like not a cheap show. And it also is reflected in the quality. Like it looks good. It is good. Jillian Anderson still sounds like she's doing Margaret Thatcher, but that's okay.

It's true. It's true. After I watched her in the Crown and then watch season three of sex education, now it's like, oh, she only has one speed for older British woman voice. It's a lot of teeth. A lot of teeth. It really is. I do think, and we're going to get into this a little bit about, like, how sex education is released.

But I do think that if it were week to week, this would be one of the most talked about shows. I feel like it would be in the Emmy's race every year. Like, I genuinely think it's an incredible show. I just think people sort of greedily gulp it up too quickly and then, like, don't have time to sit and reflect. And so it's not permeating the culture, I think, the way that it would if it were a slower release. It's such an incredible show. There's a lot of, a lot of, just like intricacies to the show, I would say, that I think, like, in some ways, preclude conversation. I don't know.

We're going to dig into it. And we're going to do so by asking eight big questions about sex education, which if you can't tell, we really recommend. So I think this podcast will have something for people who have and have not watched it. I think it'll only spoil things a little bit. So I would say, you know, just spoilers ahead, but not too many. Are you ready, Joanna? Born ready. Can't wait.

Are you a basketball fan by any chance? I'm not. No. There's a basketball player name Lance Stevenson, who's like personal slogan is born ready, and he's a pretty wacky guy, so it's like a funny thing for him. That's me. That is me. Wacky and born ready.

I'm not sure you have a lot in common with Lance Stevenson, but I would love to find out. And on that note, our first question is, what are the antecedents for sex education? What shows came before that in four? that inform it that are part of its ancestry. Like, where, from where do this show come? I mean, there's such a strong history of, like, the teen drama, the teen, so if you want to put it in that bucket, which it doesn't quite fit in, but if you wanted to put it in, like, the teen drama bucket, of course, there was, like, the heyday of the 90s and the WB and

all of that. And then there was, like, Josh Schwartz's, like, iron grip rain on everything with the O.C. and gossip girl. And then there's, you know, you and I have talked about a few import shows. There's Degrassi. There's skins. And then right now we're in a different boom, a streaming boom of teen dramas, which means there's more content than ever.

But we had a question about whether or not teens are actually watching those shows, which you can get into. But like all of those things, it's so interesting, though. Here's the thing that I want to say. In the 90s at least, when like now 2 and 0 and then. then like Dawson's Creek and stuff like that were happening. Everyone was watching those shows. Like they,

they had this like chokehold on the monoculture in a way that nothing has these days outside of like Marvel or something like that. So it's just such a different relationship with with those like this set of teens so like that. I don't know. What's on your list is like an important antecedent? One that I was thinking of was the In Betweeners. Did you ever watch that?

Yeah, great show. I love The In Betweeners as well. I think I believe I also watch that on Netflix after the fact. And I mentioned that and one that we also talked about, which I'm sure we'll dive into here is skins. And I think there's something so innately British about this show that I think we assume that the audience for this is the same as like the audience was for all the shows that you mentioned.

But there's something just, you know, it's not just like raunchy and body, but sort of in a very specific British sexual humor that there's really no equivalent for here state side. Like, even when MTV tried to do skins, it really lost what made it special. And I can't think of an American show for and about

teens that captures the same spirit. And it's a spirit that can't even be defined by one word. I would say the closest and this is not on the ranch level, but on the, like, it's so funny, I was reading this great piece that Kevin Fallon wrote for The Daily Beast about sex education, how much he loved it. And a word he used

was nice. And he was like, I understand that nice is a bad word, especially as it applies to like the Ted Lassow discourse we're in or like, you know, it's a word that turns people off shows. And it's not that sex education shies away from the nastiness and the hardship of being a teen, especially like a sexually confused as were we all teen. But like, but in the end, there is like a sense of connection, community and niceness that that permeates it. I think to that point, it is effortlessly inclusive. And inclusivity is such like a buzzword these days.

And, you know, I think obviously with the conversation around Dave Chappelle to really come into question for Netflix specifically. But one of the joys of this show is that the storylines all feel natural to the show itself. And so, like, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like a statement to be inclusive. it just feels like that's what the show is and it's capturing how teams are. I mean, I have so many thoughts with the show. I completely agree with you about that effortless inclusivity. In contrast, I would say I'm not as much of a fan of Never Have I Ever, some people are.

But that is a show that I think really puts its foot on the gas in terms of like patting itself on the back for its inclusivity. And there's a lot that I do like about that show, but there's a lot of it that feels kind of forward. Whereas with this, I agree, there's a plot line. Again, we're not really spoiling things about this, but there's a plotting with a character named Isaac who's in a wheelchair played by George Robinson this last season that I just thought was, and the actor himself has talked about how they didn't want to make it like a very special episode, that they just wanted to like ground it in like the actual characters and the

human connection and the real moment that's happening like between this character and another character and their sexual connection, stuff like that. And it's just, I, that came through. so so much that they're not like, they're not getting lost in the topic of it. They're just diving into the humanity of it and how everyone is having the same human experience or not the same, but, you know, a human experience.

And I think bringing up never have ever is a really good point in relation to the sort of like nice shows because the thing about Never Have I Ever is the main character, Davy is not nice. Like a plot of, a big part of the show is that she's like really self-centered. and like a bad friend and a bad girlfriend and like bad everything. And it's because she's grieving the loss of her father.

But she has very few redeeming moments where as the characters on sex education are all much more complex than that where they definitely do have this sort of like, they all have a moment of redemption even if it's short lived. And it just makes them much more textured. Yeah. And I mean, how the show treats its villains this year, the villain, if you want to call like one villain. The villain is always like the patriarchy, honestly. Like this nebulous sort of idea of shame and patriarchy and stuff like that. I think it is shame. I think that is like the most important unnamed character of the show is shame.

And however the ethos is trying to rebel against it and like alleviate or negate everyone's shame. Which is like pretty beautiful. It's like a beautiful thesis for a show. It is. And like the way in which I feel like our world would genuinely be a better place if everyone and watch this show and then just felt less shame generally about everything. That's how I feel about the show. No big deal.

It's just a sex teen drama on Netflix. It's fine. But when you take a character, like Mr. Groff, who's Alistair Petrie's character, who was like the headmaster for a couple seasons on the show, this last season, you really dig into where a lot of his stuff comes from. And that's the show's genius. is that it humanizes everyone. And it has room for everyone to be human.

And I think that that's just really incredible. It doesn't take away from these other characters to give that character that moment or to give Jemai McCirk's character who is at the ostensible villain of this season that moment. You know, I miss Jemai McCirk. I don't think this was like the right role for her, but I was really glad to have her back on my television.

I think she's like a fun actress. It's true. And her baliage hair was just incredible goals. Incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Her incredible hair. She,

there's something about a blonde lob that when done really right is just like very, it's just, it's a statement. The essential blonde lobbed me is Lauren Conrad, Elsie of the Hills. She always did it really well. It's true. It's true.

But I think back to the question of like, what are the antecedents? I think one of the reasons why we haven't really like honed in on many American shows is because it's also like, there's a lot of sex in it. There's like, it does not, even though we're like saying,

you know, it has all these great feelings. It's delivered in a very British package of Rye and Arch and gross out humor. And there's like, there's plenty of it in every episode. Yeah, and something that I really liked about this, this season opens with like... Incredible montage. Incredible. A sex montage. But in a way that, like, if you felt like season two was getting a little too lost in, like,

the angsty weeds, like this was like, oh, yeah, this is a show about sex. Here's, here we go. We're coming right back in into season three. But the one show, and I wrote it with like eight exclamation marks behind it in my notes, as like that I was like maybe felt similar to me, though not remotely the same sexual level, is my so-called life. Yeah. Which in terms of just capturing the humanity of teens, because like no adult TV writer is going to be able to capture what it's really like to be a teen right now. And that's kind of the beauty of sex education is.

it takes place when question mark. That's the fun part about the show. I don't know. They have iPhones, but everyone dressed like as the 70s. So like when are we? Everyone's very hip. This is just like a weird timelessness to it.

And other weird fantasy elements almost to it in that like everyone from whatever socioeconomic strata goes to the same elite academy in this one small town. Like there's there's just like it's not trying to be real. It's not trying to be do euphoria where they're like, let's show you how shitty and gritty it is to be a teen right now. Do you know what I mean? And also all of the homes have the charm to them. Like every single one is like you can't tell anyone's, except for Maeve being living in a trailer park and being poor, you don't really have a sense of anyone else's status, really. But there is just that like that, yeah, that humanity that my so-called life had that like, you know, it's such a brief little candle of a show. But like, like, Like, that was that if you watch that show, I think I've heard from actually a bunch of teens watching the show now, my so-called life, even though it took place so long ago, even though it was before we knew who Jared Letto could be that he could lead a cult of his very own. That it, that it was just like that the humanity of that show makes it timeless, you know? I think it's sort of the, it's like the dramatic feelings and like the swinging pendulum of being a teen, which, by the way, doesn't really go away as an adult. definitely comes across very strongly in both of those shows.

I think that's a really good point. But, I mean, but ultimately the Britishness of it is the sex. You know, it's just sort of the way that it's like front and center. Yeah. American TV would never. I mean, American network television would never. It definitely like fits on Netflix because of that. Because it's like sexually explicit.

And not in like an exploitative way, but just in like a literally explicit way. And I remember that skins when it premiered. Skins isn't nearly as explicit as this even, but when it premiered and like Americans were trying to get their hands on it however they could, it felt very like wild, like how much they were willing to show, which is funny because like, you know, Brits are also, they carry with them also that historic repression. Like that's very much a British thing as well as the sort of like blue humor. So, you know, it's an, which is why I think the British mindset is, is one of the best ones to tackle this idea of shame and it's toxic.

For sure. For sure. Yeah. And there really is so much to discuss with this show. But we should just say the original premise of season one is Otis and Mave start a sex clinic together where they give advice to their fellow students about sex. And the reason that they are allegedly qualified is that Mave kind of finds the clients. And Otis gives the advice because his mother is a psychologist.

and a sex education and like specializing in sex education. And she does like sex education at the school. So this is sort of like black market sex ed led by the actual teacher's son. And then it kind of evolves from there. But that's sort of like that also speaks to the sort of the shame factor because it's their business is illicit at the beginning. And so it's like in the stalls of the bathroom or like around a corner on the campus of the school. And so it's like all of these kids like leaning on each other. for advice and guidance information, but also doing it in secret.

So it, like, it walks this line of acceptance and shame and, like, the pull between the two, like, basically every moment of the show. That's a really good point. And I think also, you know, we see some of the attitudes of, like, the families and what they're able to accept and what they're not able to understand and all that sort of stuff. Like, again, it doesn't exist in a fantasy world in that there isn't, aren't major obstacles. But I was trying to think about, like, to...

I know we want to move on from our very first question because we have several more. But I think a reason – I wanted to think about those other American teen soap team dramas that we, like, grew up on. And I think the way sex was using those shows is either it's like a bad thing to be avoided or it's the source of the drama, like who slept around with who behind who's back and stuff like that, right? or unlike Buffy Vampire Slayer, one of my favorite teen dramas of all times, like the biggest plot point I think ever of the show is the fact that like Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend and he turns into an evil monster. You know what I mean? Like what story is that telling us about sex, right?

That's so funny. But like, but sex education, the sex is about identity. It's not like people cheat on people. Like that happens in the show and all that sort of stuff. But they avoid these cliches. And so it's just, it's just about like. being comfortable with who you are is sort of the point of sex and all this. It's not about like the other ways in which it's been used in teen dramas in the past, you know.

Yeah. And I actually, I think Euphoria is probably like the show that they don't have a lot in common except it's also like an explicit show. So I feel like that's probably like kind of like the yin to the yang of sex education in a way at the moment just in terms of like it's interest in inclusivity and sex basically. But they couldn't be. more different outside of that. But I think about the shows, and I have to say I find Euphoria way more scandalous than I find sex education. And I think that's the intent of the show as well as to like scandalize, right? And give you major discomfort or something like that. I was at the premiere of Euphoria at like, I think it was at the Austin Television Festival. And like the

crater was there and Zaddea was there. And there were just like a bunch of parents who went up to the microphone and they were like, why? Why did you make this show? I don't know. I'm still thinking about that. I think American teens stuff seems as or more interested in drugs than sex, which is also kind of interesting. Are you talking about the jingle-jangle epidemic on Riverdale right now? I didn't know about that, but interesting. Interesting.

Well, I was going to say, like, the shows that were, like, my personal hallmarks and touchstones as a teen that, you know, for better or for worse, were the original 9-210, which I also watched as, like, a pre-teen, like, definitely was way too young to watch that. But I loved it. And like, you know, sex was a big deal on that show. It was discussed a lot, but it was also like, and there's plenty of promiscuous characters. But in the high school and early college years, like sex was like a really big deal. Like Donna staying a virgin and then Brenda and Dylan's first time and like, you know, and then

there's like several rape storylines on that show. Like it's definitely have a pretty fucked up relationship to sex. But then I was a Dawson's Creek super fan. Like I have a Dawson's Creek poster in my office. That is the president from Bill. So thank you, Bill. And that show, though Pacey has an affair with this teacher in season one, is like pretty chaste.

And though, like, there are, you know, there are sex plot lines, of course. Really that show is like about the talking, the talkiness of teens that doesn't actually exist. But I always think about the end of season three, which is one of my favorite episodes of television of all time. I snuck it on to the ringer's top 100 episodes of the 2000s list. it's the true love episode and Dawson comes back from having his heartbroken and he says that

he wants to be alone and then Jen and Jack and Andy like riff off some like some good quips and Andy says to him it's our pain that makes us real Dawson and like that's like a line that I think also describes a lot of sex education but they would never say it like ever whereas

Andy is you know there to like jump in with like the with like the model of music in the background. Let's talk about the end of season three of Dawson's Creek because that has to be, of course, the moment that Joey and Pacey sail off on the sailboat to spend the summer together. I think I'm in love with you. You think or you know.

I know. I've known it since blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. On which they don't have sex the entire summer. Entire time. They don't have sex until I think midway through season four. And they talk about it for like... And he brushes her hair before.

It's so awkward. They talk about it for like five episodes. Anyway, it's just like, I also love it. of Dawson's, but like the... Total antithesis. The way that show treated sex is wild, truly wild. I know. I know.

And then Dawson and Jen finally have sex like many, many years after dating. It's fairly weird. It's like a lot of American television is very chaste. And I think that's like, it's a weird, it's a weird holdover from like standards of like 60s television or whatever. It's definitely changing with shows like euphoria and with streaming in general. But yeah, like American teen shows also or it's like in the other other direction. Sorry, I'm jumping all over the place.

But like you mentioned gossip girl. Like, yeah. There's sex on that show. But in such a fantastic way, it's not remotely realistic. Sex education is like all about the awkwardness of teenage sex and the ickiness. And just like also the frequency. Like that is just like this goes to the whole idea of sex education, which is like the people who believe sex education shouldn't be taught in schools have like dreamt up some fantasy

world where teens are not having sex. in high school. You know, or maybe they have sex once on prom night or something. Like, that's the idea that American TV is trying to sell us or whatever. Whereas sex education is like, no, teens are having sex all the time and with so many people. So shouldn't they be educated? Shouldn't they be informed? Shouldn't they be safe sort of thing?

Yeah. All right. Let's move on. Question number two. Why isn't there more buzz despite such strong performance on Netflix? Again, I really think it has to do with the like, the streaming versus the binge. Though, and I also, I was trying to find data on this, but again, the Netflix numbers are so

opaque. But I think that it saw a big leap in viewership in season three as my understanding. Oh, interesting. That it was, like, critically beloved in season one and two, but season three, it got a big jump. So I'm hopeful that the conversation just gets louder and louder. But, like, most Netflix shows have trouble sustaining the conversation beyond the weekend that the show premieres. Yeah. I would say it's a two week tail.

Even Squid Game, haven't we all moved on? Now the Halloween's over, we've really moved on. Well, in Squid Game, I think the reason it had some longevity is that it took a little while to kick off. Do you know what I mean? That people were catching up on it. But Stranger Things is among the only shows that has like a lengthy buzz. And even that, people are like, we haven't seen an episode in several years now.

We've forgotten who the characters are. What's happening? You know what I mean? And that's the problem. Like, I don't mean to be all anti-Binge. Obviously, there's benefits to the binge. And obviously, I am a hypocrite because I watch this show in a binge. But, like, when you watch a show in a binge, then you don't retain it as well.

And that it just doesn't feel as important or as real as something that is rolled out. And so I do feel like if sex education were a show on, like, HBO. Is it an HBO show, though? It doesn't feel like an HBO show. Maybe an Apple show. I don't know. But, like, if we're a show that rolled out week to week, I feel like it would have stronger. retention for real. Yeah. Did you ever watch Fresh Meat? Yes. I fucking love Fresh Meat. That was on Hulu for a while. But I used to find illegal streams of that and watch it, big tweak. But I feel like that is, for whatever reason, that makes me think like, maybe this could have been on Hulu. But that was really very Hulu 1.0. Pre-DISney, that's for sure. Hulu importing all the BBC stuff that they could find. But like, what's interesting about sex education is one of the young actresses, the young woman who plays Amy, whose last name I can't remember right now, but her first name is also Amy.

Amy Lou Wood, that's your name. Amy Lee Wood. Okay, great. We got there. We got there. We got there. She won a BAFTA. So, like, in the UK, it has some stickiness beyond this. Not that the awards are the end-all be all, but I just want more people to watch this show.

So that's why I care about this. I totally agree. We'll come back to some of our favorite actors, too, because there's a lot of great youngsters on this. I think, I agree that, like, Netflix shows, they just sort of, they come and they go, and it's very hard to maintain people's attention. My biggest problem with the binge is not just the short economy, that attention economy, but you can't differentiate episodes. Like, I can't tell you what happened in, you know, like a certain episode of sex education. I remember everything that happened. I could, like, go back and parse it. I, you know, read some episode guides to, like, remind myself of, like, what happened when and the order. But, like, I remember so many individual episodes of my favorite shows when I was a teenager. You just did chapter and verse. Dawson's Creek. It was incredible. I loved it. Thank you.

I could do Felicity. I could do the OC. Like, there's a real, like, savoring and just delight that goes to a week-to-week show. And I still watch Crazy Anatomy every Thursday night or Friday morning. And, like, as a result, like, it's a real sort of evolution. And, like, it's a climb. And it's like you are, you are in or you are out with these shows that are week-to-week. And this is much more to be like, okay, I was in now, I'm out.

We're all moving on together. Bill and I were talking about that in terms of succession, how Succession Season 2 was so successful at delineating its episodes and what happens because they were like location hopping and stuff like that. And so I was thinking about this season because I did not do an episode guide refresher. And I'm like, well, there's the school trip episode, right? Like everyone's on the bus. That's an episode. Other than that, I couldn't tell you. Yeah, exactly.

It's hard to differentiate it. Totally random. I just want to mention the other person on the show who's now super famous. is Hannah Waddingham, who plays Jackson's mother, which is, like, sort of funny, because now she's an Emmywoman. Yeah, she had a much bigger role in the first two seasons and was, like, barely in the third season.

Yeah, but his other mom was even in it even less. Yeah. I think they figured out which adults people are interested in, and their names are Jillian Anderson. That's like, taking up a lot of oxygen in the room. Okay. So next, what is the ideal way to consume this show? There's the HBO model of dropping the first three and then going weekly.

There's the old school model of one at a time. Amazon also does like two and then weekly. Did you watch that show that was like Lost the Wilds? I did watch The Wilds. I loved The Wilds. That was very good. Another good teen show. I did not love The Wilds as much as you did.

But as soon as you were like that show that was lost, I was like, oh yeah, the Wilds. Yeah. This is another teen show that I recommend it. It's a good one. I have a question about that. I think here's what I think. I think at this point, a season four of sex education could sustain just simply a week to week. At this point, given the audience that it already has, I think you could just do it week to week.

And people would be impatient as they often are, but into it. I do love the HBO Max model for a drop three and then week to week to get people interest, a mini binge. And then once people are hooked, like sort of spool it out. I think that's a really good model. It works. It works with the flight attendant for me. Sure did. Love the flight attendant.

Big time. Love Life season two. I'm in. Like, you know. Hacks? Give it to me. Yeah. Hacks.

I've got a long spiel that I'll tell you about offline. Okay. All right. I will say Netflix with their reality does that. Well, not all of that. But with too hot to handle, bake off the circle, they do a couple of the beginning. And then they go week to week. They do a few at times.

So I wonder if they'll start doing that more. Here's what I've heard. So I like, I talk to you. a producer who shall remain unnamed, who does a lot of stuff on Netflix, and he also has some stuff on Disney Plus. And I was asking him, like, given the success of the Disney Plus model

in terms of capturing, like at least with Marvel shows and with Mandalorian, capturing the conversation week to week and how a bunch of people are like, wow, Disney Plus has really figured out how to release television. I'm like, it's how it used to be.

Anyway, I was like, are people less inclined to put their stuff on Netflix? knowing that it's just going to feel more flash in the pan than something that's going to get a week-to-week rollout. And he said, like, wildly off the record because nobody wants to piss off Netflix. Yes.

Big time, yes. That a lot of people, that no one's saying it because everyone's scared of Netflix, but that like the binge model for creators is becoming less and less attractive. I think that's why Netflix is getting more and more high-level filmmakers and fewer high-level TV creators. That's interesting.

I mean, also, if you create a serial project, you think about it in chapters. You think about it in discrete parcels, right? Like, you think about it episode to episode. So, like, what is the point of making a TV show in chapters if you could just make a long movie or something? Like, I don't really know what, like, if you are TV, if you're thinking TV conceptually, which is the serial, why you would prefer that. I mean, it doesn't make any sense. And then, you know, you see a show like Wanda Vision, which uses the format of television so, so expertly. that, you know, it's both a meta-commentary

and also a really well-done television show that you're like, if you, you could watch it all in one sitting now, but like I personally feel like the show and that viewership benefited so much from seeing it week to week. And I think character growth is really hard to discern if you watch it all in one sitting

because you're just sort of like, it hits you over the head. I actually did parse out sex education because I liked it so much. And as a result, I've got a real fondance for Adam Groff, who I feel like we just watched grow and evolve in such a meaningful way, we'll come back to him. But I just think you miss out

on that. And I know this is a conversation that's not unique to this one episode, but I do think with teen fair, because of like the emotional highs and lows, it's kind of better to spread it out. I agree. Do you hear that Netflix? What? I'm just asking if Netflix heard us and wants to release sex education season four week to week. Let's see. Consider it guys. Who's their production partner in the UK? Do they have one or is it purely Netflix? I think it might be purely Netflix, because I do think when they have partners, sometimes it has to go week to week. I think that's part of the bake-off situation. I think the bag-off situation is that they dropped. They used to drop in a binge that people in America were so impatient and they were just like pirating it from across the pond.

So they started trying to match it week to week so that people would watch it. Yeah. Don't you want a global television event to happen in the same way everywhere? I mean, that's the point. That's like the Olympics and stuff. You know, it's so fun. I remember my friends in the UK when Thrones used to drop on a Sunday and they would have to wait until Monday. To watch it. Big time, bummer. Tough stuff. Tough stuff.

Okay, next question. Less meta. I just kind of opened this conversation already. Joanna, who are your favorite characters? It's hard to top Adam, Connor Swindle's character, who has had such a progression from the beginning of the show to where he is now.

And the moment that he has at the end of this season is just some of the most beautiful television. television ever. And in, and in a mirror of him is Eric played by Chitigatwa. And he's like, he had this incredible, like, Nigerian plotline this season that I thought was really amazing. And it's interesting because I like, um, okay, let me ask you another pronunciation. Is it Asa Butterfield or Asa, Asa, Asa, right? Okay. I like Asa Butterfield a lot as the ostensible main character, but sex education is so good at flushing out all the characters. Otis isn't as irrelevant as, like, Dawson eventually feels in his own show, but like, you know what I mean?

But I think all the cast of characters are so interesting. And I think the story of Eric and Adam especially has been a really, really compelling one to watch. How about you? Yes. Adam Groff starts out as a closeted bully who bullies Eric, who's played by Chutti, Guata. And then they enter a relationship. Spoiler, not really.

Could have seen it coming. and it's and you know, Adam grapples with sort of like his own repression and his own and coming out to his parents and sort of meeting expectations. But like he's not just like a regular bully. Like Adam has a dog named Madam, which I think is so fucking funny.

Adam and Madam his dog's like a big part of his life. And he just is pretty straightforward about who he is and also like fairly accepting of other people. He connects with another character like I never would have guessed. You just take some twists and turns that I really. pretty fascinating. And one of the things is just exciting about the show is it's a real evolution of like the bully. And it's not just like he goes from being bully to like out and proud in like two episodes. It's like really much more complex than that, which is like pretty cool. I love so many of

the characters. I really love Jillian Anderson's boyfriend and Plummer, his name is Jacob. He he's just like so sweet and gentle. And like I also think that like part of like the effortless inclusivity is like also just representing immigrants that this show does really well. And I think that's like actually a pretty important part of British culture. So like that's really cool. It's just like there's so there's so many that I adore. I have to say on the flip side, one of my least tier characters is Mave,

who is the female protagonist. She's like the Joey Potter of the show. Interesting. I think it's really hard to do justice to like a teen basket case, slight tomboy vibes. Like, I just feel like I always dislike, I always end up disliking all of them. I hate a Joey Potter.

And I find Maeve, I find Maeve boring. Okay, I like Maeve, especially when they, like, brought in her mom in season two. I thought that stuff was really strong. Emma Mackey, it should be said, who plays Maeve, as a lot of people have noted, is, like, a bizarre dead wringer for Margot Robbie. So much so that, like, I think they dyed her hair brown in later season

so that you would stop confusing her for Margot Robbie. She does look a lot like her. Yeah. But I do like her character a lot, but she's definitely not the most compelling character. And for like, she is ostensibly the female lead of the show. She's not the, you know, the one that I am most interested to, like, come back to her storyline. But her relationship with Amy character is a really beautiful one. There was a moment this season where Amy was like, well, why don't we just be each other's mums?

It was just like really beautiful. Amy is great. Amy is kind of like British teen version of Karen from Being Girls. Yes, yes. Correct. Exactly. She's great. I really like her.

Jackson is like the cool kid athlete. He is a young black man who is a very good swimmer, but he doesn't really want to be a prodigy at swimming as a teenager. He has two moms. One is black. One is white. And in the most recent season, gets into a relationship with a non-binary student at the school.

And so Jackson is the subject of so many topics that are discussed in culture right now. And somehow that character does not feel overwrought to me. And I think that's, like, pretty amazing. You mentioned Adam and his sort of unlikely friendship and Jackson's connection with this new character. This is something like that. And something that I think the show does so well that was true to my high school experience, at least, is show that, like, yeah, there are circles of friendships. You know what I mean?

Like, you have in this school, you have your cliques. You've got your like mean, rich kid clicks and stuff like that. Clicks are real. That's a thing. Tribes that we form are real. But, like, you also interact with these people. Like, you're in classes of them. You do activities with them and stuff like that.

And so the way in which these groups of kids sort of like ping pong around each other and you find unlikely allies, unlikely connections, that's a part of the show I really, really love. Absolutely. It's pretty amazing. It navigates teen issues with teens really well. It's just like surprise. I think that like the surprise of how successful the show is and like how how much fun it is to watch kind of like gets me when I think about it. I'm just like, damn, that's like a fun enjoyable watch. We should mention, I mean, like as you navigate like, let's say a character like Jackson and all the sort of, as you say, like kind of buzzword fraught storylines that he has to go through, this show is never not also incredibly hilarious. Like that's the. point is like you're getting all this stuff, all this like identity politics is not a phrase I love, but like that's a lot of what's going on here. Identity. Search quest for identity. Quest for identity. All that sort of stuff that could feel like lecturing in so many other contexts and just feels like

effulately like a human story that's also funny and that's what the show does so well. I feel like the humor I take for granted and I don't like focus on it quite as much. But it is really quite funny. It's kind of like succession in that way too. We're like, Oh, right, this is a really funny show. Yeah. Oh, man. On that note, what's a storyline that you were surprised by? I think this is question number five. What's the storyline you were surprised by, pleasantly or otherwise, that they've managed to incorporate? I guess I alluded it to it before, but I think the way in which the Isaac character, again, played by George Robinson, maybe didn't really care much for it

because it's also a Maeve storyline. But, like, I think the way that that was introduced, there are so many different ways. Here's what happens. on sex education all the time. I feel like I know where the storyline is going because I've seen, you and I have both seen so many, like, shows in general and teen shows specifically that we know, like, the story beats. So if a character, let's say, deletes a text message from, like, you know, another character because he's jealous, deletes it off someone else's phone because he's jealous, something like that. You feel like you know how that revelation's going to go. You feel like you know how all of that's going to go. And sex education always takes a left turn from

that. They're like, we're like, we're not going to ignore that this is a problem, but, but it's not being set up to be the thing you think it is. It's not the bomb going off. Yeah. There are other problems here. And let's get to those problems. It's not the act of deleting the text. It's something else. So like, that's the kind of stuff that I love. And then I will also say, as someone who is like wildly uninterested in like humor having to do with like literal shit, there is like, like, like, like a set piece in this season. I hated it. I just thought it was done so well. I loved it. I loved it. I thought it was incredible. That was very in-betweeners to me.

That was like that, that whole episode was very in-betweeners to me, actually. And I love the in-betweeners. I went to see the movie by myself on a very hot day in Los Angeles. I had a great time. Oh, no. That's a great movie.

No, I had a great time. I remember like being so hot. And the only place to cool off was at the movie theater in Burbank seeing in-betweeners. Great stuff. All right. How about you? How about you?

Adam, who we've mentioned, his parents have an interesting kind of back and forth. They are separated and sort of like how they navigate that. I think is really interesting. I think as I get older, obviously, this is a bias, but I find myself pretty fascinated in like an academic way

of how television shows try to like illuminate like adult female life and like just like, but it's like an adult woman because in some way it's like considered boring by TV. if you're not like a super mom or like, you know, struggling with doing it all. And I think there's like a couple of adult women characters on the show that are just like more complicated than you would expect. I mean, Jemima Kirk's character included. They try to complicate her at the end. And it beats along the way too.

But I have to say I find everything led to the graphs and Eric really. And Eric's family too, really interesting. Eric's is Nigerian and his family is very traditional in some senses, but also like very accepting of him and others until I go to Nigeria. And it's, I think a lot of the sort of like family dynamics I actually find it as fascinating as the relationships themselves. I think that's one of like the rights of passage for like women especially who love teen shows and maybe revisiting teen shows is to watch something like, let's say my so-called life, if you watch it as a teen and then to watch it as an adult and all of a sudden you're like really interested in Patty's storyline and you're like the storylines that you used to sort of yada yada through. And all of a sudden you're like, oh wait, no. her story is so fascinating to me. So, yeah, when the parents become

as interesting to you as the teens, that's a, it's a definite rate of passage like, oh, I'm old now. I also will say with this show in particular, it's also about, like, adults making reckless sexual decisions and actually much more reckless ones than the teens, which I think is also kind of like a fun, fun twist.

So I like all the family dynamics. I just do. I like Jackson's two moms. I like Adam's separated parents. I like Otis's just kind of like wacky mother. Jillina Anderson as like a wacky sex educator, psychologist is so funny. Wear of incredible pantsuits. But like the fact that he is so frustrated with her, the way that a teen who...

So a teen. Because she's such a cool mom. Like she is. Like all the teens are like your mom so cool. And he's like, yeah, thanks I hate her. Not he doesn't hate her, but like, thanks I'm very frustrated with her is so perfectly realistic. Absolutely.

Yeah. And it's almost like he would rather be a repressed teen, like secretly having sex than like having like, you know, condoms just at the ready. So one of my biggest disappointments of the show is at Daniel Aings, who is in one of my personal favorites, Love Sick. I love Love Sick. Me too. I love it, Joanna.

I love, I watch it constantly. He's also in season one of the Crown. He's in two episodes of this show, and I really wish he was in more. I love that actor. I thought he was going to take off, but it's just not happening. I think it's a good character for him, too, because he's just playing like kind of a ding that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Love 6 on my favorite shows ever.

It's fantastic. Another great show that, like, takes the shame out of sex, even widespread chlamydia outbreaks. Yeah. Listen, that's what this show also has on widespread chlamydia outbreak. Let's talk about it.

You know, that's a great lead into our sixth question. What's a blurring cliche? They turned on its head. You kind of mentioned one with the text message that does not turn out to be A deal breaker? A big one. I think all the breakups, that's the thing is like all, every act of infidelity or breakup,

I think the way in which they take a slow road for those characters to find comfort with each other again, I think is such an interesting thing that they do sort of all over the place where it's not, we'll never talk to each other again. And it's not we're immediately fine. but it's this is work to get to a place where we can be comfortable with each other again. Right, right, right. So that's something that I really like that they do. Yeah.

How about you? Love a show that embraces therapy. I think for me it is making the quote unquote cool kids like less than cool and much more complex than usually seems. Like you're not just getting one perspective on a cool kid, which is like the uncool kids view, which is I think how many teen shows play it. But like every single like Ruby who is Otis's girlfriend for part of season three is like the coolest kid in school. But even she can be broken up with. Even she can be heartbroken. And, you know, she's like the hottest girl or whatever. And so I think that like the fact that it manages to make it clear that while not all pain is the

same, everyone, every teen does have pain. And I don't know. I just sort of like appreciate that. Also, it's not just hot people have sex. That's the other thing that's the show. Everyone's having sex. Every single person. Yeah. Great, great point. Also, every single person is struggling, too, the sex and otherwise. Like, no one is just like, cool.

I got it down. We're good to go here. And I think what's so interesting, especially about the Eric and Adam storyline, which, again, like, kind of does become the most compelling thing on this show is this idea, when you have so much representation as this show does both, like, racially and sexually and all the sort of stuff, you can talk about the nuance of that experience. So it's not just like, what is it like for Eric to be out, but what is it like for Adam to be out, and those are two wildly different experiences for those characters.

Or we had two non-binary characters in season, one of whom knew how to negotiate certain things, and one of whom did not. And so, like, what is that experience for one person? What is that for the other person? And again, that is just the benefit of representation of, like, you don't have to have, what is the entire Black experience centered on this one character? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it is true.

It also, like we were saying in the beginning, is such a delight. that no character is tasked with, like, representing everything. And as a result, there's no, like, totality of experience, like, expected for any character. So as a result, just, like, just a cast of characters, like, in a literal sense, it's great. In some ways, it is a very literal show. It's kind of funny. But that's, like, what our conversation has brought to the fore for me. But, like, in a good way, it's like the antithesis of Dawson's Creek, which was, like,

looking for meaning in every fucking metaphor and movie poster. No. And this show just laughingly leans into the silliness of metaphor, like, when you have a sexually explicit musical, theatrical piece that closes out season two and stuff like that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Just sort of like leaning into all of that. You know what I just realized as we're chatting, what's really different about the show is there's no references. It doesn't reference other pop culture.

That's what I mean about like the fantasy. It's a show out of time, completely out of time. The technology will date it slightly, but other than that, like, it's not, I was actually like, something I do sometimes when I'm going to talk about a show is I will, like, put on its soundtrack on Spotify to like just like listen to. And Spotify didn't pay me to say that. But like, just to like listen to what the vibe of the show is. And the soundtrack to this show, all season, all three seasons are on a playlist that you can find there is like, the soundtrack to this show is so all over the map time wise and vibe wise that it's just like that's what the show is. It's just like you can't. You can't pan a time on it. It's true. And there's benefits to watching something like my so-called life, which is like the most 90s show that ever 90s. Like that there's a benefit to that.

Everyone's wearing flannel. And that's a deeply important part of the element of the show. But like for this show to be so out of time, then you're just focusing on again the universality of this human experience. It's not just about like what kids are going through right now, sex-wise, is what kids have always gone through trying to negotiate. sex in high school, you know what I mean? I think that leads to an important question.

Are teens watching this right now? I don't know. I think some are. I don't know either. I think plenty are, but it certainly doesn't have, you know, you mentioned, I'm, again, I'm delightfully impressed that you were able to, like, chapter and verse Dawson's Creek. But, like, when you think about the way in which those teen shows, like, if you talk about

a Pacey Witter or Seth Cohen, Dan Humphrey, Logan Eccles, Jess Mariano, and, Tony Stoneham, like, you know, all those characters, like, they have like this place for the generation that came up watching them. And I don't know that that exists for teens now, probably for the better maybe, but like even the teens who are watching Riverdale, of which according anecdotally, according to the people I asked on Twitter today, a lot of teens are watching Riverdale. But like, are Archie and Jughead? Like, is that who Archie and Jughead are for people? I don't think so. That show is just something else entirely, you know? I do think the Spouse twin.

that's in Riverdale is like an absolute icon to teenagers. Absolutely. Yes. What are they to you? The Jesse's kids from Full House or Ross's son from Friends? Or Big Daddy Kid? I think they're the stars of Sweet Life with Zach and Cody. Oh, God. No, I'm just, no, I'm kidding.

No, I mean, what incredible career they've had. Hit after hit after hit. But seriously. Like, not joking at all. I think one of the benefits for Netflix of having the show be out of time is that perhaps different generations of teens can keep finding it or like in five years, another group can find it and it'll still ring true.

Like, I think that is almost, I think sometimes what seems like a interesting or clever creative decision on a Netflix show, it actually speaks to the platform. Like, when I first watched Too Hot to Handle and the host was like a talking lava lamp, I was like,

oh, okay, so that makes it easy to translate. Like, you can just dub over that really easily. Oh, that's so funny. I thought about that. And so I do think sometimes some creative decision,

are suited to the platform itself. So, like, this can live on for many years. You don't have to worry about it, like relating to one time period or another. It's sort of why period pieces work as well. Like, even though, even though Stranger Things will age, it's at the 80s. So, you know, the problem is more that kids growing up,

but not the, like, the references becoming dated. Whereas, like, if you watch the OFC, it's incredibly dated. Yeah. And that's, but see, that's a different kind of soundtrack that you're just sort of, like, put me at a time. time counsel. Take me away, Franz Ferdinand, you know what I mean?

Sure, sure, sure. I've been thinking about this a lot because I just listened to Adam Brody on the, um, the OC bitches podcast. I have so many thoughts on it. Mostly I would say it made me like, made me like Adam Brody less, but that's again, another conversation.

It's okay. I will not be listening to it. We're all going through it. But remember when he, um, in the very first Christmas episode has like his Seth Cohen starter pack and he gives one to summer and he gives one to to Anna. and it's like the things he loves. And it's like a copy of Cavalier and Clay

and a DVD of the Goonies and like a couple other things like that. And it is very 2004 to me. Cavalier and Clay is one of my favorite books. I respect it. But it's sort of like because this show could appeal to a lot of different people, different times. It's almost like teens right now might be watching it.

But like teens might also find it in five years and they're in their 20s. And then a new group of teens will find it. Maybe, but maybe it's even more important for parents to watch it because like what it, what it, I mean, I would love for teens to watch this because I, again, I think it is instructional. And I think there's a great, when I was Googling, do teens watch this show? It's kind of hard to find the answer, which is why I asked Twitter, but like there was an article in The Guardian where the, this reporter interviewed a bunch of teens about sex education and how they felt like they were getting a better education from the show than they were from their sex education programs in school. These are British teens. And like, so I'm like, okay, this report. Porter found five teens who are watching the show. It doesn't tell me that like all teens are watching the show just means these five teens or whatever watching the show. But like I was trying to like figure

out what unites, what's, what's the like connective tissue between the teen shows that teens are watching right now. Like if you take Riverdale and yes, Outer Banks, Ringer popular show Outer Banks that according to like my Twitter responses, a lot of teens are watching, these are shows completely divorced from any reality, they might as well be taking place on Mars. That's how those shows feel. This shows sex education, despite the fact that it takes place in some weird step out of time place, feels so connected to human experience and reality. So it just feels like something really different. And I wonder if parents or teachers watching it might have a better understanding of what a gift they could give the kids in their life to like introduce this idea of like

you don't have to be ashamed or if you have questions. I don't have to be ashamed. Or if you have questions, I can give you answers. We can talk about this. Because that's the arc of the journey of every character in the show. And I suspect the show's only going to go to like five seasons. Yeah. That's probably what they were in before. It was like closer to ending that was before, which I guess is like true of like every day you're alive.

But whatever. True. But like I think the arc of every character is not, oh, I need these two people to be. I don't need Eric and Adam to be together or I don't need this to happen or I don't need that to happen. What I need is for every character to get to a place where they feel comfortable with who they are. that's the journey that every character is on, you know? So that's what I think is really powerful about the show. It's not aspirational, whereas I feel like a lot of shows that actually connect with teens,

even if it's a sick aspiration, there's something that's like a fantasy that you're just like, oh, I want that. Like gossip girl, yeah. Yeah, and outer banks too. You're just like, God, I wish I lived, you know, on the other bank on a boat and just was like diving into the ocean and my dad was out to sea and I never knew what happened to him. Like there's something that's like they make it seem.

It's like the epitome of social media of like even if it's bad, it's aspirational. And that's actually like not the vibe of sex education. Maybe that's why as adults we like it. Because we're like, yep, that's right. It's tough. It's icky. It's hard. Yeah.

And then you get through it and you wish you could be young again. All right, Joanna. Final question. What do you hope for in season four? Which let's just assume it's the penultimate season. not the last one, but penultimate. For the school to actually have a great headmaster for once, the headmaster who gets it, what are we headed for?

For the school not to close, right? Yeah, exactly. For everyone to have a school to go to. Yeah, yeah. I forgot about that for a second. Yes, yes. See, that's how quickly these shows leave us. I know.

Because, like, yeah, it's not an aspirational show, but do I wish I'd gone to the school? Absolutely, yes, I wish I had gone to this school. Where did you go to high school? Where did you grow up? In Marin County, California, I went to a very snobby, snooty private high school, like really gross, like pretty bad. Okay. And if you want to talk about, like, shame. That was like, that's more like class shame and stuff like that was sort of like running around that school.

There was just like a lot of, a lot of toxic garbage in that school. How about you? Where'd you go? I went to a magnet school in New York City. It was pretty good experience. And, but like weird. I mean, like, it was still high school. But, like, I would say it was very.

clicky, and also very, I would say, pretty racially segregated. It was big. But it was, it wasn't as toxic, I think, as some other people's experiences. I don't know. I like don't hate high school the way that many people do. I don't want to say I would love it, but it was okay. I feel more complicated about college personally. Oh, interesting. That's very interesting. How about you? What do you want for season for? I don't want me even notice to be together. I think that's super boring. So I hope that like, but I also, but I also don't want to continue this like, will they or won't they? Like, I'd like for them to find some early resolution and they won't.

And then, like, let's move on. And I also would like, oh, it is to grow up a little bit. I don't know if that's realistic, but... Okay, I guess spoiler for the finale. If you've made it this far, you've probably watched the show. So it's fine. You just want... I mean, you don't like Maeve at all.

You just want her to stay in America, probably, right? Yeah. You're like, study abroad. Stay there. She's not that interesting to me. Like, all the other female... Although I feel like I haven't named a single one. I do like Amy.

I don't say I haven't, like, named any of the female characters. I like, but I just think they're less compelling in the show. Although I will say we have talked about Lily who loves sci-fi and also writes sci-fi stories. And I adore Lily. And incredible character. I hope for her to just find happiness. And I think that she will with Ola. But I love that her thing is that she loves sci-fi.

Like, that's just, that's her thing. I love it. She could be on the ring or verse. And like weird, sexualized aliens. And by weird, I mean that in a celebratory way. Alien, alien kinks. I want Adam to find more, like, happiness outside of a relationship, which is sort of, like, what, you know, like, because the relationship is not going to save you from your anger and your sadness. So, like, find even more continued happiness outside of that, all that sort of stuff.

We love Adam here. This is a pro-Adam rock podcast. I mean, if you want to talk about, like, I don't want to, like, identify the, like, objectively handsome white man. as like the breakout hit of this series. But like if you want to talk about like, because people used to cast out teen shows all the time, right? And so I'm just like, I have my eye on Connor Swindles. I think he's going to place.

I think he's incredible. The amount of like repressed emotion that is that he's like hanging on to is really. He does a lot with his face like a lot without because he actually doesn't have that many lines for like the first season and a half. So it's pretty impressive. It's just a delightful show. Check it out. Thank you so much to Steve Allman for producing this episode of the Ringer Prestige TV podcast. You can hear Joanna talking about succession with our dear colleague, Sean Fennacy.

You can also hear Joanna on the Ringerverse on Fridays. Yeah, except this week, we will be back on Monday next Monday talking about Eternals. Oh, snap. And you can find me on Ringer Dish on Tuesdays and on Bachelor Party on Tuesday nights and Thursday morning. Thanks so much for listening. Enjoy television.