The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Euphoria’ Season 2, Episode 4 Recap featuring Eric Dane

Episode Date: January 31, 2022

Joanna and Nora are back to recap the explosive episode of 'Euphoria' and all of the drama with Cal that unfolds (11:19). Later, Joanna sits down with actor Eric Dane to discuss the evolution of his character Cal and where this episode leaves him (50:34). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Nora Princiotti Guest: Eric Dane Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ring or Dish is the place for all things celebrity, for major celebrity moments like the Met Gala and the Oscars, to the weird habits of the stars you love, to refreshers on the biggest tabloid stories from the last 20 years, Ring or Dish has all the vital details. On Tuesdays, catch jam session with Juliet Lippman and Amanda Dobbins for Royal Family Rumors, Celebrity Real Estate, and Industry Analysis. And on Fridays, listen to Tea Time with me, Kate, and Amelia, for lightning fast coverage on pressing celebrity news and gossip. Check out Ringar Dish on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back into the Precise TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. Nora Prenziotti is here. We are here to talk about Euphoria Season 2, Episode 4.

You Who Cannot See Think of Those Who Can. It's the title of the episode. Hi, Nora. How are you doing? I'm doing very well, Joanna. How are you? I'm doing really well. We've got a special little segment for the show this week.

It's very exciting. We have a guess. Nora, do you want to tell the folks who we've got on the show this week? It's Eric Dane. Eric Dane is on the show today. Caljik is himself and I just like, I don't know Nora that while we're getting to know each other,

but I just want to, like, I wish you guys had been there when I told Nora over Slack that Eric Dane was going to be on the show. A lot of caps, all caps, exclamation marks. Nora, clearly a Grey's Anatomy person. Nora, how are you feeling? He's just very important to me as a person in in television, in theater. I don't know if Eric Dane will listen to this full pod.

If he does, I just want him to know, like, not to brag here, but like Tom Brady is a fairly regular part of my life. And that is really no big deal. I was starstruck for the first time at a long time. Just when you slacked me that Eric Dane was going to be gracing this podcast feed. Like, that is just so exciting. And a really great episode, as we will discuss for him to be part of our discussion of because he got a lot of Cal in this one.

So it's like a part two, I would say, I have like two-part Cal extravaganza, which, you know, not every euphoria fan is here for, but we definitely are. And so we will get to that. We'll get to our conversation with Eric at the end of this episode. First, I'm going to do some messages, emails, DMs, corrections, comments, concerned. We had a lot of corrections this week, mostly directed at me. A light correction on, I think we mentioned, we said that Rue was dancing to Frank Sinatra. A bunch of people wrote in to say that was Bobby Darren.

Okay. Oh, that was the Bobby Darren version of that, of Calme irresponsible? Yes, exactly. And then we have this question about Cat on the show. The character of Cat and how she was sort of marginalized this season. And a bunch of people wrote in to let me know that there is a story burbling around. not been reported anywhere, like in the trades, but it's been on like, uh, Dumois and like some other places about how the actress, um, didn't like the direction of her character. I thought it was

going too far, was too dark. And so Sam Levinson, instead of rewriting it, just cut her out of season two, essentially. Um, so I think the number floating around is like 75% of her storyline was cut out of the season. I have some questions about this. I, I'm just going to float a question about this. How do we feel about that being a response to an actress versus I've seen some chatter around the fact that like Sidney Sweeney, who's the only actress who has like, you know, no nudity clause, has a massively expanded role in the show. That is a question that some people have of like, are we seeing so much Cassie because of

Sydney, Sweetie's comfort in that regard? I don't know. Do you have any immediate thoughts? feelings about this? I guess my immediate question is I'm having a hard time imagining the conversation of an actor on Euphoria and Sam about this character is too dark. Like, I imagine Barbie Ferrer is great. I feel like she probably knows what show she's on. Yeah. I mean, until we get it more reported out or until like someone wants to talk about it, this is all sort of rumor speculation. That seems odd to me. But I had

I had so many people message me about it that I, that it felt like it rose to we should talk about it. So I mean that makes sense. And people obviously, you know, there's there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. That does strike me as a little bit odd. I also

there are ebbs and flows to we talk about this as an ensemble show all the time. There's there are ebbs and flows to that. Also Sydney Sweetie, her star has been on the rise so significantly. I don't think that it would require some sort of thing going on behind the scenes to emphasize for there to be the desire to emphasize her character in this season. But who knows, maybe we'll find out

more. The last correction sort of thing, this one I think falls on me, is that I, and I did a lot of research about this particularly thing, I got so many messages about the fact that Cal's flashback is supposed to take place in the 90s, not the 80s. And I'm pretty sure that going into a For you a podcast. I didn't think I'd have to do some math, but here's some math for you. When does this show take place, the modern timeline? Roo says it's 2019. She says she's born shortly after 9-11, 2001, so that's, that roughly works out for her character. Even though it's now 2022, right, the show takes place in 2019, because that's when it started. In this episode, episode four, Cal says he has been back to the bar for 25 years. And that means

The flashback took place in 1994. This is something they talked about on the inside of the episode that we don't have access to because we're recording in advance, so we can't watch those like little HBO segments that they do after the episode. I will just say one thing in my defense about this. I'm curious again about the soundtrack of this segment because I looked up all the music that played during that Cal Cold Open, and it's all late 80s stuff. It's in excess, Depeche Mode, Erasure, Roxette. all of that stuff is like 84 to 88 is what they were listening to.

The only 90s song in that sequence is the Lenny Kravitt song. So I just think that, and then in this episode, when we get Cal sort of reliving his youth, it's again all mid to late 80s songs. So it's not like there's a harsh line between 89 and 90 and you stop listening to 80's music. I just think it's a really interesting choice to set something in 94-ish and use all. iconic 80s music. That's all. Any thoughts, Nora?

Accountability is good. I'm grateful to our listeners for keeping us honest and for being engaged with the specifics. I do think that responding to the vibe of a scene and some of the musical choices, the aesthetic choices, if a scene is sort of giving 80s, that might be more important in the world of euphoria then it was 25 years before this date in history. Like, it's just not that kind of show. No, I did that. I mean, like, the creator said in the post-episode thing,

like, we were inspired by listening to 90s music to do this and that we designed the hair after, like, 90s Matt Damon, 90s Brad Pitt. And I'm like, I can see it. When you tell me that it's 90s, I can see it. It feels a little blurry to me. And early 90s is just responding to things that happened in the 80s. Like, that's true.

I think we should allow that to be sort of wishy-washy. Anyway, I don't mean to be defensive. I miss stuff all the time. So it was 90s, not the 80s. The math is a little dicey, but basically, like, Nate's older brother is 25. Shitty older brother. Still lives at home. That's fine to do.

All right. The Joe Burrow sunglasses that you brought up, Nora, got a lot of messages about those as well. One of our listeners, Logan, sent me a TikTok all about the sunglasses. You can get them on the Jeff Bezos website. If you want, they're around. You can get them. You can be like Cassie and Joe Brose. If you want to.

You can get the real sunglasses on that aforementioned website. Like the Cartier ones? Oh, was he wearing Cardi? Were they both wearing Cardi? Yeah. Okay. No, you cannot get Cardi. Similar glasses.

Get similar glasses. Yeah. Okay. Bobby running about the drug deal. Okay. So Rue goes to Lori and gets a massive case of drugs, which we see that she's been helping herself too. Very smart, Rue.

Bobby wrote in about the believability of that deal. He was like, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Why would a seasoned drug dealer like Lori give an apparent addict thousands of dollars worth of drugs? A listener named Lefty wrote it and said, he thinks is a way for Lori to get to Fez because she sees like, you know, some sort of leverage around Fez having to do with Rue and the suitcase. We don't know the answer because we haven't seen the episodes, but I think it's safe to say since Rue does. not appear to be enacting her drug pyramid scheme, her MLM drug. She said she's just testing the merchandise for herself, that this is not going to go well for her in the end. What do you think, Nora? I agree that it's not going to go well. I also, even it has stretched my credulity,

even for an addict like Rue to not be constantly thinking about, like to not have the only thing that is ever on her mind. Just what do I do with this suitcase of drugs where my life has been threatened if I don't sell them? I think it would make a lot of sense as a tool to get to Fez. And if we are asked to believe

that Lori would make that deal with Rue, I guess it's just because, you know, I mean, come on. She was wearing her mom's business casual. Zendaya's very persuasive. It's the magic of Zendaya. Come on. James Renan, James Rodin is a, as a representative of Gen Z to say, this, this I thought was an

interesting thing on the ongoing music debate that we're having, right? Where Jake says music is easier to find than ever. That's true. Like, growing up, you can just, like, log on to Spotify and play, you know, give me 90s stuff or whatever. And being the person who knows a good song that no one knows makes you cool, especially if it's older and you have physical copies. That's fun.

I mean, I hope that's true. I don't know if that's true, but I hope it's really true that Gen Z is, like, leaning back into physical media. I love physical media. I'm a big fan of it. Huge final sales year, 2021. Great. And last and not least, Jake wrote in to suggest with a great guest host suggestion, and I just, this is a message for me to Jake to let you know I'm looking into it. Okay.

So let's get into the episode itself. We're going to start with Cassie, because Jesus Christ. I wrote down on my nose, basics instinct vibe when we get the Cassie and Nate scene. How do we feel about this, Nora? It's not good. She does not seem to be in a good place. The funny thing, it just, it's funny that we were just talking about, um, Sydney Sweeney and kind of having her, her star on the rise.

This was like the only time that I've ever seen White Lotus Sydney Sweeney appear for just a hot second in Cassie. just when she all of a sudden has been going completely, when she's with Nate, and she's been losing her marbles and is yelling at him and they're fighting and she's, you know, saying all these things about Maddie and threatening him and blackmailing him and all of this stuff. And then all of a sudden Nate flips out.

And then she just goes, okay, bye. And leaves. That was White Lotus. Sydney's we need just for a hot second. I was like, oh, I've seen you before. We do not feel good about it. She's clearly having a tough time. She's not putting herself in a good situation.

The thing that is sort of interesting to me is how her family situation is sort of subtly orbiting a lot of the plot lines when Nates are so foregrounded, but there is a little bit of a mirroring of those things, I think, like, particularly, okay, at the end of this episode, not to skip forward, but Nate's dad leaves his family, right? Like, there is this fascinating parallel between the two of them while they are also figuring out their own relationship, Nate's relationship with Maddie, Cassie's relationship with Maddie that I found to be sort of an undercurrent in this episode. I think keeping the Lexi play in our minds is like it's a light touch in this episode. This isn't a very Lexi intensive episode, even though she's at this party.

But we get the cut between the Cassie auditions and a conversation that Lexi is having with her sister. I really liked that device. And I like that as an ongoing opportunity to, again, keep that sort of meta narrative going in the series. And then there's this awful birthday party scenario that we have. And Cassie's loss of control, I mean, it's awful to watch. My question to you is, do we feel like this is still, like, to our earlier conversation about this idea of Cassie's obsession with Nate paralleling, like, Rue's addiction to drugs, like an addiction plot?

do we think it's something else? Like, what do you think? I think there's a lot of interesting ideas the show's putting forward about femininity and womanhood through Cassie. And part of how that represents itself is through the question of when she acts, is she acting for herself or is she acting for male approval, Nate's approval, just out of this need to be loved? or wanted. And this was, that had been more of an open question to me before this episode. This episode shows someone who is acting and existing essentially for Nate. For a man's attention, approval, maybe love.

But that feels like a stretch. and she's really betraying her best friend to do it. So I think it just maybe that makes it seem more like an addiction. It definitely makes it seem unhealthy, is what I would say, if we're looking at it on a parallel tract to Roos behavior. I love you bringing up this idea of performance because, like, that cut between the auditions and Cassie is so interesting. Last week we saw Cassie's like abusive self-care routine, the like getting ready routine.

In this episode, she does the like costume change. The balloon Shnato-Connor dance feels like a performance more than anything else. And then at the end, because I was trying to figure out the closing shot, you know, there's all these like portrait closing shots of various characters. And hers is sitting in front of the mirror with flowers all around her. Yeah, she's in this like sort of Love Shack fans. crazy vanity mirror box wedding cake kind of. Yeah, but it almost looks like an actress with the flowers from her performance,

you know, like some stage prima don't know, with the flowers, the accolades from her performance all around her sitting in front of vanity. Or it's just a portrait thing because we started with a bunch of actual art portraits, which we'll talk about. But I thought that that was a really interesting visual. But this idea of like Cassie and her performance. formative. I mean, I just want to, I don't know, I just want to slap her and hug her at the same time. That's how I feel. And like in terms of costuming we also get, I really liked your point last week about the relationship between Maddie and the family she's babysitting for Mika Kelly's character and that family. Because in this episode, we see her not only dressed up again in her clothes as she, you know, Nate comes to the house to talk to her about their relationship and love. But we see her looking out the window. at like Mika Kelly and her husband playing with a kid in the pool.

So it's like, I think it really does reinforce your point about this idea that she's playing dress-up in a fantasy of a life that she wants. And, you know, that's a big part of being young and especially being a young girl is just sort of like trying on personas, outfits, costumes, ideas, you know. I don't think that this is a particular concern to really anyone, maybe even including including Minka Kelly and her husband, but not sure she bought the champagne. No, I'm a large bottle of very sense of champagne. It's true.

I want to talk about Cassie and Lexi's mom. Yeah. A lot of you bought a great actress, an actress that I absolutely love, and I think she's fantastic in this role. It was really good in season one. And I love her as this like, I mean, absolutely a moderately functioning alcoholic and also like The Fun mom. mom, right? And so she's like, I'm the fun mom and I'm going to throw this party and you girls get to drink and I'm going to twerk and all this sort of stuff. But, but, uh, and what that means for Cassie and Lexi. The, I mean, where are these parents and these kids lives? And, and I don't, I don't think it's a one to one because I would say that Rue's mom is like a very invested in present parent. You know what I mean? But like, you know, and so is Jules' dad and invested in. And, uh, and invested in. and present parent. But, like, I think it's another one of those on the nose musical cues from Euphoria

when we hear sometimes I feel like a motherless child playing over like Cassie, bringing in the birthday cake. Tell me your Alani Buck feelings. Her presentation is kind of either it's this big issue or she's sort of the fun mom. I tend to gear much more towards, like, what's the last line that we hear in this entire episode. It's since before we even existed. You know, like, it's not that it's all her fault, right? But I definitely got so much, and it was presented subtly, but I got so much out of

this episode that I felt was trying to sort of direct us, again, subtly, but to think about Cassie and Lexi's growing up. Like, think about what their lives were like, think about sort of the sources of Cassie's need for attention to think about why she's, why she is the way that she is. And there is in some ways something fun and innocent about, okay, her mom is throwing the party where everybody's drinking and, you know, she helps her out of the hot tub after she's thrown up all over everybody. But my read on that was very not sympathetic, just in a subtle way.

Oh, I'm not, I'm not sympathetic at all. It's like, it's damage. She's like, by Fun Mom, I put hard quotes around that. And because I think that anyone who's trying to be the fun mom, if you're trying to be a pal more than a parent, like you're not doing your parenting job, right? And so I think that I think it's really smart to have her there. Well, and again, because especially like it connects her to Nate. And it made me wonder if there's something about the, you know, even when California. Cassie and Nate are fighting.

Nate calls Cassie Maddie. And we've had this ongoing idea of, okay, is Cassie trying to be Maddie in certain instances? Does Nate think he wants Maddie but actually wants Cassie? Where, you know, where are the connections between Nate and both women? Where are they stronger? Where are they more legitimate? where are the weak points? And one that really keeps coming up to me is this

sort of toxic link between Cassie and Nate just as they relate to their families. And maybe that's why they are totally destructive together, but it is something that ties them. Let's go over to Rue Jules' Elliott World. I want to talk about Rue sexuality worthiness. A lot of questions here. First of all, let us highlight, please, one of my favorite fake orgasms I've ever heard, ever.

Not only Zendaya's fake orgasm, but then Hunter Schaefer as Jules' like imitation of a pitch perfect imitation. It was really good. Of the fake orgasm. Incredible stuff. Not convincing. No. Not convincing, Rue. Not remotely.

But, you know, right before she fakes his orgasm, she, you know, she's, you know, she's document how much she loves jewels and we get a flash of a bunch of famous pieces of artwork, right? We get Bottice's Venus, John and Yoko on the cover of Rolling Stone, Frida Kahlo, McGreece the lovers. We get the pottery throwing scene from Ghost, Titanic, Snow White with a great consent joke in there, and then broke back Mountain. What I thought was kind of interesting is that in all of these scenarios, Rue is cast as the masculine half, I think, in every instance. There's something very complex and interesting going on with the sexuality here because something that Hunter Schaefer said in an interview was that Elliot presents this version of Rue. Like he's going to remind her a lot of Rue. But he's a man.

And historically, Jules has been interested in men. Like, this is her first relationship with a woman, right? And she said, I'm not interested in men anymore. It's like something she said a couple times. But like, is that true? You know what I mean? Or is that just what she wants to think? And like I think casting Rue is like the masculine, even though that is that montages theoretically in Rue's head.

Like, but Rue's not, you know, a man. Like that's not who she is and that's not her, you know, gender as far as we understand it. So I just think I think it's an interesting thing and like maybe speaking to a disconnect between these two people despite their love for each other and like what they actually want sexually or emotionally. What do you think? Yeah. Well, and part of what bothers Jules about Rue's fake orgasm is not just that she's feeling the disconnect between herself and Rue, but she's like, if I'm not good at going down on you, like, that makes me feel like a dude. Like, that makes me feel like a guy. I wouldn't, why would, if I suck at this, it's because I'm like a guy, which is one, very funny, but two, I think speaks to some of that as well.

Yeah. I mean, that's a very real human and especially teenage reaction of, like, insecurity. Is it like something I'm doing? We had a couple questions about, like, Rue's physical health or her relationship to her body. Jackson Ruin to highlight a couple times that we've seen Rue and Jules on their bikes, and Rue is always lagging behind Jules. And Rue herself will call it out. But, like, you know, physically, Rue is not, like, in her body, her relationship with her body.

And Christoph wrote it and he said, I was wondering how you felt about Rue's sexual vulnerability. I bring this up because there are multiple scenes in episode three where Rue and Jules make out, but Rue doesn't feel comfortable bearing herself out to Jules. Jules wants to be more intimate, but it's clear Rue is really scared to let anyone including herself into that space. I think it's connected to her drug addiction in the sense that once she begins to accept her body and herself, she'll start to show true signs of recovery, in my opinion. I don't know anything about that last part, but I just, I think, you know, there's something really interesting going on some of it is just like ordinary teenage feelings about your relationship and your connection

to your body. And Jules' experience versus Rue's lack of experience and stuff like that. But is there something else bigger going on here? What do you think? Well, in any reality of this world, Rue's body would probably be in really rough shape. It makes total sense that she can't bike as faster as well as Jules. And then even think about how Rue dresses, right? Everything is big and baggy and she wears sweatshirts and just does not seem comfortable showing her body in ways that most other characters in the show, right? Everybody's pretty comfortable exposing themselves in certain ways, with some exceptions. But Rue does, I think that's a very clear character trait is the discomfort in her own body

and probably some of that is internal feelings and then some of it is the, toll that presumably her drug use would take on her physically. There's this small shot at the end of the episode after Jules has found out that Rue has been lying to her, where we see Elliot's, like, Elliot's hand and two cut marks on Jules' body. And this is, you know, this reflects a season one plotline about Jules and her relationship to self-harm. and I just thought this quote from Euphoria's trans consultant Scott Turner Schofield

from a Polygon interview was really interesting he says I think when I watch episode four in season one Sam took me to the edit booth and showed me the opening episode four where Jules is a child and it's really hard she's in a mental institution for self-harm and the thing is like self-harming isn't about Jules being trans except that of course it is. Trans people don't experience mental illness more than other people because we're trans It's a symptom of what you do to us because we're trans.

But I think this, the show continues to try to explore, you know, Rue's discomfort with her body is a kind of dysphoria, you know what I mean, in its own way. And then Jules' ongoing questions about her body is another thing that the show is interested in. Do any thoughts or feelings about this? Well, it's how Jules processes something that. she takes as a rejection, right? Like, she's in some ways feeling sexually rejected, which you would imagine, and especially hearing that process is on multiple planes, right? Like, one, she's in a relationship and is just figuring out that relationship and then has all of these questions about identity and sense of self that add a whole other layer to it. Last and last

Also not least on this trio, I want to talk about what I'm calling the White Claw Heist. The Jules and Elliot steals some white coat. Also, I just have to say, I just have to say this. Shout out to Jules and anyone who's ever been directed to like go get a case of beer and instead is like, I'm going to get something else. Sorry. Get some white claw. For me, it's going to be a shout out to Elliot for part of his hold. distraction tactic to call the Kirkclercramer and then say, didn't you get canceled?

Unbelievable. Just unbelievably funny. So funny. So good. But the end results is that Rue, who's drinking and on drugs and Elliot knows it and Jules doesn't, that it pushes her to a place where she absolutely lashes out of Jules and Dames get out of the car. Sam Levinson said something in the post interview, episode interview last week about really

wanting to push Rue's likeability, which is something that we talked about last week. And this, I mean, like her lashing out of Jules for no reason is a big part of it. How did that land with you? It's working. She's pushing the limits. I don't think, I think the power of Zendaya is strong and I still very much feel like I'm on, not on Rue's side against Jules, but just I'm rooting for her. I want things to get better.

But it's interesting that that's happening at the same time as, you know, one of the most, the sort of most wonderful surprises about season two. For me, has been how charming the Elliot Jules relationship is. And we've talked about the idea of, you know, love triangles are hard because you're apt to see the incomer as, sort of an interloper. They've done such a good job of avoiding that. And part of it is because there's so much charisma,

both just from Elliott, but from the two of them interacting, I find really, really, like, fun to watch, charming, sweet. And when Rue is the destructive force, and then on the other side of it, you do get this lightness and this warmth. I think it's not just Ruse behavior

that's testing the bounds of that likeability. It's what that behavior is being contrasted to in that quote unquote love triangle. So hugely positive surprise that that is not only not a detractor, but a value add to this season. I'm just very impressed by that. Absolutely.

And especially like it is so hard to pull off bringing in a third into a relationship that we were maybe rooting for or invested in and not feel like he's nothing but an intraloper. So I'm just yes-ending. Like, you know, the character's written well. The performance is fantastic. And, you know, especially when he's like,

it's heartbreaking because he's like, I don't want to lie to you. And it's like him saying that to her versus everything that Rue was doing to Jules in the enormity of her lie. You know what I mean? The lie is so much big. of what Rue is hiding from Jules. So, yeah.

Speaking of young men that we are fond of and tender about, Fez Fear Check, we just got a quick check in with Fez this week, Mouse's girlfriend, I think Baby Mama is looking, Mouse, the drug dealer who died at the end of season one. So how are you feeling? Nervous?

Bad. I'm worried about my guy. So many ominous camera shots. from outside of his window, which made me feel, is someone watching? Is someone going to shoot through that window? What is happening? I'm worried.

Must protect at all costs. To do back to Rue, the... So she does this horrible thing to Jules and goes home and does drugs in her room, the golden light, all this sort of stuff. And then we get a payoff or a part of this thing that you and I have been talking about all season, which is this idea of, like,

church and God and religion in this stunning sequence where Rue walks into a church as part of her like drug trip. Labyrinth, the musical artist who does like the music for the series is they're singing in this church, you know, a new and an original song created for this sequence. His, the color of his jacket matches the color of the hoodie, which is her dad's hoodie. So we cut between her dancing with him and her dancing with her dad. and, you know, Rue pushes the envelope on unlikeability, and then there's a sequence that I just feel incredibly tender and sad and protective for her,

especially, you know, she says stuff like, I'm not a good person. You don't even know me anymore to, like, her dad. What do you think, Nora? Yeah, I was interested because there's spliced in there. There is that little moment where the, I think it's the, you see the church pews, but then it turns into Lexi sitting in the auditorium seeing auditions for the play. We talked about that last week, just the idea of, okay, what are you going to be saved by? And how many of these characters or which ones is Sam expressing himself and his lived experiences through?

So I thought that was an interesting little nugget thrown in there to continue that idea. but it was just a beautifully shot sequence and really the most effective way that they can play with Zendaya slash Rue's like ability is for it to be a push pull.

Right? Like nobody wants to just turn on Rue. So the highs and lows and coming back through this sort of emotionally gut-wrenching but also beautifully done sequence, I thought was very effective

because particularly after, you know, two episodes in a row where we've seen Rue be manipulative and cruel to her sister and then now to Ali and then to Jules, that does add up. Yeah. So I think it was a good idea to bring it back in that way. Balance the equation. Yeah, yeah.

So I think that's really interesting about the church scene is that like I think other than jewels, like this is a predominantly black church that she's walking into. And something that I thought was so interesting about the holiday special with Rue and Ali is he's talking to her about music and he says something,

I think it was, or maybe it was, anyway, at one point he says, like, don't you have any black friends? And like, what's true is that, like, Rue doesn't. And like, what is her connection? You know, she's a mixed race, like, character.

Like, what is her connection to that community? that side of her identity. It's not something that, you know, she herself seems to have spent a lot of time exploring. What do you think? Yeah. It seems, it's, I think that would be really interesting. So I hope that that is sort of a clue.

All right, let's go to Cal. Hats off, man. Eric Dane. Obviously, we're going to talk to Eric himself about all of this, but this is just sort of a bravara, like, I don't, I mean, Eric answered this question, but at the end of this episode, I was like, is that the last we're going to see of Cal? Is that it for Cal on the show? It's like he's exiting his family.

Like, what place is there for Cal if he's not, you know, circling Nate? But I just thought this was tremendous. We returned to the bar. We get a really, like, sad dance where, you know, young Derek appears in the fantasy again. And then we get this, you know, incredible leaving the family. pull the house down, pee on the carpet as you go, goodbye from Cal. One thing that was really interesting is, like, as he's talking about all this stuff,

you know, when he gets kicked out of the bar, he stops and he looks at this mural of John Wayne, and later he calls himself the man with no name, which is Clint Eastwood sort of thing. So this idea of this, like, hyper-masculinity, quote-unquote, toxic masculinity is something that, like, helped warp and shape him. But also, I think what's interesting is as he's talking about his sexual proclivities, he's still talking about it in a hyper, like, masculine kind of way, even as he's

dropping like F bombs and other things, the bad F bomb, the one that I would not say myself. What do you think? Yeah, well, so one thing that, I guess I didn't have really talked about this sort of explicitly. But there's a lot of, there are just so many things where I wonder, this show doesn't, it's not trying to trick you that often. It's not like there are tons of red herrings or,

it's not really that kind of show. But I do feel like there's sort of a puzzle that eventually I want to feel like I've pieced together just in terms of the show's sort of beliefs. system. And part of that is because there are just so many different, there's this grounding theme of sort of why, why are we the way that we are? Or, you know, is it nature versus nurture? What do we do when we're in these circumstances or dealing with pain or whatever causes the need for whatever our version of euphoria is? Like, where does that come from?

And whenever I see a connection between two characters whose storylines don't intersect that much, it always makes me wonder like, okay, is there some sort of parallel there? And yeah, like there's so much of Cal's the way that he presents himself as a sexual being that's like, I'm a rugged cowboy. And so even just the brief like Brokeback Mountain shot in the Juul, and Rue sequence didn't feel like an accident to me. And it's so interesting to see these characters who are not necessarily connected through all of the plot lines interacting with the same ideas about, you know, femininity,

masculinity, how that plays with sexual identity and sexual orientation. And I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm fascinated to find out. So I guess if we're talking about the conversation of like, okay, where does Cal go from here? That is, in some ways, if he has freed himself by leaving his family, then maybe the answer is now it's time for him to actually figure some stuff out. But I do want to just say the ending, the sequence when he's at the bar is amazing. And then that gets interspersed with Cassie, which is another example of just, okay, how does that all this fit together? Yeah. But the end with his family.

Oh, my God. What a spectacular scene of television? I want to acknowledge Paula Marshall who plays Marcia, his wife. Paula Marshall, a great TV actress of the 90s. I thought she was great in the scene. You know, the kids, the boys are just sort of their, you know, Jacob Allorty, as Nate is giving just reflective surfaces to bounce off of. But, like, Eric Dana just, I thought it was really. fantastic and I thought like throughout this has been I mean it's funny when I when I post on

Twitter like about how much I liked last week's episode and how I cried at the cold open and that tweet went like you know semi quasi tiny bit viral a bunch of like euphoria fans were like fuck you why do I why would I give a shit about Cal and I was like I I can there are definitely characters where I'm like no matter what you do to try to get me to empathize this character I'm too far gone and I can't access it. That's not my relationship to Cal, but it certainly seems to be some Euphoria fans' relationship to Cal. I find this whole performance so compelling, and I find what Eric Dane has done here, especially in relationship to the, like, way he entered pop culture via McSini, via Grey's Anatomy, to be really just like an incredibly interesting choice.

Well, and I do think that there are some sort of in jokes in that scene about the relationship between the show and its audience, which involves a lot of the progressive politics of Gen Z in particular, and even people who aren't Gen Z who are watching this show, just understanding what that is because there's part of this, you know, Cal is monologuing, basically. and he has done all of these horrible things. And then he calls out his family for being, you know, for not being progressive and for having all of these regressive views about, you know, men and women and the nuclear family and relationships and, you know, whether it would be so much worse to them or less bad to

if he'd cheated with a woman, if he'd gone to a strip club and, and, you know, cheated on his wife with a woman. And there's something just so deliciously funny. And I love when the show gets a little bit wacky and pokes fun and things like that. I just thought it was so well done. I got so much out of it. I thought it was fantastic. I really loved him calling his family assholes.

I just loved him. He was like, I'm lonely. I'm lonely, guys. That's the issue. It's like, all right, it's a little more complicated than that at this point. But I suppose there's some truth in that. Nathaniel, your whole fucking life as a secret, like, I don't know.

I thought it was all just really interesting and fun. As he said, it's like fun and funny. And, like, we should point out and he takes the photo off the wall and he leaves and it's the photo with the mysterious third boy. Mysterious. He says, we all have these secrets. Like, did that kid, like, did that kid that?

Like, what happened to that kid? Like, you know? Big questions. A lot of questions. I don't think I'm, I have a rule in the world. of Taylor Swift, which is that there are no accidents. And I'm starting to feel like there are no accidents in euphoria. I feel like if that had been an accident, they would not have redrawn attention to it.

You know what you mean? Unless, again, they're, you know, lambshitting the whole thing. Fantastic stuff. Okay. So before we get to our interview with Eric Dane, before we do our, like, wrap up, is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you want to make sure that we mentioned? I think we pretty much covered it. All right. So who's in most need of a hug this week, Nora, on you for you.

Man, like the people at the bar or anyone who was on the road when Cal was driving with no hands. Oh, my God. Yeah. I'm going to give it to Cassie. I feel like she's my ongoing person, but oh my God. And that brings you right to acceptable, terrifying, horrifying, moment because for me, of course, it's vomiting a jacuzzi. How about you? Yeah, not a lot in this one. Nobody got shot. Nobody got bashed in the head. So I do think that this one was sort of loving on my delicate sensibilities, but vomit in the jacuzzi, you know, not great. Who would you actually want to party with this week?

It really remains Maddie. I have to say this was the episode where I found myself watching going, oh, I think Maddie might be my favorite character. Like, I think I might just be like really solid in that and know that that's true.

I do like her just turning on Nate in the jacuzzi, great stuff. You know, she is a good friend, I think, to Kat, I think, in their interactions, you know? So, and she is, I did think, we talked about how smart she is. And that was the first thing that Nate points out, you know, she's like, why did you love me or, you know, why are you, why have you been interested in me when they're talking at Manga Kelly's house?

And he goes, you're smart and you're cruel, but you're not actually. And centering just how sharp she is, I think, has been a really nice thing. to watch in Maddie's character development. And then, yeah, just the fact that, I mean, Cassie is doing everything she possibly can to end this relationship or reigniting relationship between Maddie and Nate. And it has no effect, but the smallest thing cannot stop Maddie and Nate from being Maddie and Nate and getting in between themselves. And I found that very funny. For me, the person I wanted a party is, okay, it's Cassie and Lexi's mom, but like no kids are there. But we're going to play some Montel Jordan, and she's going to show me how she's learned her to work, and it's going to be a great time.

All right, favorite flashy camera moves slash shot. I will say there's a series of these shot through windows. You called out sort of Fez, but there's Cassie dancing by herself, Roo dancing by herself, Nate through the window after his dad leaves, you know, and Fez. And I think the dancing by themselves, one, I think there's such an interesting, again, it feels like a performance, a stage thing. It's like Cassie, Cassie's in her own reality. And when you're in there with her and you're hearing the Shnado Connor, like, on the soundtrack

and you're like, okay, this is something. And then you see it from outside. And it's horrifying. It was already bad, but then it's horrifying. Or Rue, when she's having her drug trip and you're like, this is so emotional, you know, and then you see her from outside the window and she's just dancing by herself in a stupor and it's deeply upsetting. I thought that whole series of shots was really interesting. Yeah, that was great. We talked about some of the sort of religious imagery.

One that I wanted to point out was Maddie in the swimming pool positioned like she's on the cross. And there's this beautiful shot where, you know, it's sort of a. not an infinity pool, but it's looking over this amazing view. But the one corner of the pool is shot so that it's coming to this very sharp point. And I wasn't fully sure sort of what the takeaway from that imagery was supposed to be,

but there was something that just was very striking about it to me. The other thing that this is sort of subtle, but they do such a good job of shod. shooting Nate so that it is always so obvious that he's incredibly tall. Like when Cassie opens the door at the birthday party, I have to imagine that that camera angle was just like practically straight down because she looks like she's four foot two. And he is just towering. And what it says about, you know, the power dynamic and he's this like larger than life person to her.

and she's just sort of little and helpless. It's very effective, I felt. I also want to shout out. There's a shot of Hunter, Schaefer, Jules at the end of the episode when she's looking out. It's raining. And like the rain on the window reflected on her face looks like tears. And then there's that incredible backlit shot of her sitting on the bed, like sort of pulling out through the door that I thought was just, I mean, just absolutely beautiful.

Speaking of Elliot's bedroom, which is probably actually where I would want to spend the most time of any location euphoria. Needle drop, I'm going to give it to the Jonathan Richmond song. I was dancing in a lesbian bar. I love Jonathan Richmond. But being Jonathan Richman fan. So I just thought that was incredible moment. How about you? So this was not the most like important to.

emotion or plot development, but it is the law that if you play, don't you in an episode of television, I am required by God and man to select it. It's in your contract, your writer. Okay. And then last but not least,

the Maddie Perez-honore fit check. Coming out of this episode, two things. Number one, a convincing Halloween costume, I think, would be Cassie and the pink bikini with, like, balloons. Because when she walks out of the house, she's still wearing the balloons, it's like a whole thing.

But I'm actually going to give it to Elliot's striped sweater. He's wearing this really beautiful, like, 90s boy striped sweater look that I really loved. How about you? So I actually went in a similar direction. Sweater game in this episode was on point. Not only Elliot, but also, hate to say it. Nate. Nate at Minka Kelly's house.

Great sweater. Great sweater game. All right. Sweeters on absolute assholes and little cupcakes like Elliot as well. Look, a mean boy who looks good in a sweater is the most dangerous thing on earth.

So, careful. Be careful out there, everybody. We're not giving the fake check to Cal in his head bandage and shirtlessness in the bar, but let's go anyway now to our conversation with Eric Dane. Okay, let me start you with this question. What, if any conversations did you and Sam have before this season about what direction he wanted to go with Cal this season?

Our table reads, we read the first five to seven episodes. So we knew what we were getting into. You know, Cal was very contained, very controlled last season. This season becomes completely unraveled. So we essentially, the conversation we had was we get to create a whole new character. We get to see cow. We get to see the real cow. And that was basically the hurdle for this year

was to figure out who this guy was. The causes and conditions that made Cal who he was, I feel like we touched on it a little bit. You have a very controlling father who's that there's toxic masculinity in the house. And you have this kid who's gay and working against those instincts because of the environment he's in.

And obviously we see in episode three the origin of that story with his best friend Derek. And had Cal not been backed into, I guess, quote, unquote, doing the right thing with Marsha, we would have seen a very different lifestyle choice. But we didn't get to see that. So all we have left is to see, you know, what made him who he is. And I think the circumstances that he was sort of placed in make sense to a degree. What was your reaction when you saw how it all played out on the screen? I'll say this.

I cried. How did you feel about this sort of gift for your character? I loved it, to be honest with you. I thought it was fantastic. But nonetheless, heartbreaking. And it makes sense that Cal spent the majority of his time trying to put up this facade of an existence. I thought the kid who played a young cow was terrific, both of them.

All right. So you get an episode like this, episode four, where it's just scene after scene of juicy breakdown for you to perform as an actor. I know you said you did the table read, you knew it was coming, but, you know, again, this feels like another gift for you. What is it like to stare down the barrel of an episode?

Like, this isn't intimidating at all? Is it just exciting? How do you feel? I loved it. I love the challenge. For me, you know, that's the golden life is the obstacles and the challenge and doing whatever I can to stay vulnerable. So as an actor, it was a godsend.

And Sam is such a beautiful writer. You know, I don't think we changed a word from the read through to. the day that we shot that scene. I did think I better start learning this now because it was like five pages of dialogue. But it was so much fun to play. Playing this character is, you know, aside from some of the behaviors

that may come across as immoral or deviant or whatever label you want to attach to it, it's fun to play a guy that gets to cut loose like this without having to deal with real world consequences, be able to walk into your house and pee on the floor and tell your family you no longer want to be around them because they fucking backed you on the corner in the begin with. It was a lot of fun. It was a fun day on set. You talked about how Cal becomes completely unraveled this season, a chance to create a new character.

Is there a singular breaking point for Cal and all of this? And if so, what do you feel like it is? I would think when he gets the shit beat out of him by Astripe, and he realizes, you know, when he realizes that they know nothing about this tape, and I've exposed much more of myself than I needed to. And when I realize that Nate is also in love with Jules, and I'm kind of confronted with the idea that the parenting I've done has caused my child to grow up the same way I did.

I don't want the same things for him. And we go from there, I think, I think for anybody getting your head bashed in with a shotgun as a breaking point, but specifically for this character, I think it knocked a little sense into him in a weird way. Yeah, he says this thing at the end of the episode where he feels free, like for the first time. It's almost a gift, this awful thing that happens, happened to him.

I want to ask you specifically about this Shnade O'Connor, uh, drink before the war moment when, um, you know, The episode cuts between you and Sidney's character, both lip singing to you and sort of wilding out to this song. What conversations do you have about the song choice or was it just presented to you? They're like, this is the song. Did you dig into the meeting of the song at all? Like, what was your relationship with that? I personally love that song.

That's one of my favorites. I've been listening to it for years because I'm old. And I remember when Shanaid O'Connor was doing her thing. So I love that song. I, you know, Sam is so good with music cues that I didn't have any, I didn't have to question anything. I just went with it. So much of this is just me kind of along for the ride. So I, there's very little pushback on my part.

You know, I read some interviews that you gave when you, you know, right around season one where you're talking about how you were looking for a part like this that felt like a departure from the other parts you were being offered. That everyone felt like they knew what you could do from your years on grays and stuff. subsequent roles and you didn't want to go on that lane and you wanted to show that you could do other things and go on a different lane. Yeah, I felt stuck as an artist. You know, I felt like I looked a certain way on the outside and felt a different way on the inside. And the work that I was choosing or the work that was coming my way was based on what I looked like on the outside and not necessarily encapsulated me as an artist. So I took a long break and I had some moments. to reflect and euphoria was just kind of a serendipitous.

It just kind of fell into my lap. It was weird. I sat down with Sam for 45 minutes and discussed this character. And I heard that after I left the room, it was it was it was done. I was him. So yeah, and it has brought, you know, a different lens onto, you know, people are looking at me through a different lens now, which is nice. I never wanted to play the.

the same role for the rest of my life. I think it's counterintuitive as an actor to just kind of be the same guy. I don't want to play to my perceived strengths. Yeah. You know, and I touched on it a little earlier. Like, I've really found that, you know, with age, you know, I've learned a lot about myself

and I've learned that the ability to stay vulnerable for me is where the golden life is. There's, I mean, you know, there's plenty of apparent dissimilarities between you and Cal. So I'm not saying you are Cal or vice. versa, but when you talk about that person inside of you that is different from what people might see on the outside of you, what in Cal do you identify with? What reflects back on you?

You know, I really identify with Cal living a double life. Oh, I for years battle with drug and alcohol abuse. I know what it's like to live a double life and to have to put up a facade and pretend that that everything's okay on the outside when you're dying on the inside. And while the circumstances are very similar to my circumstances in life, the feelings are the same. I know what it's like to look a certain way on the outside and feel completely different on the inside. And I feel like that's just such a great larger message of the show

that Sam is trying to communicate, is this idea of all of the facades. They look different. There are so many different faces we can wear, but that euphoria is really interested in that real pain. That is the same or is similar throughout everyone. I think the Nate Cal reflection is so interested. You mentioned that earlier,

this idea that Cal realizes he's just cycling what his dad did to him down to his son. But there's that really interesting line in this final confrontation when you say, you know, you're the part of me I don't understand at all is something that Cal says to Nate. But I accept full responsibility. What does that mean to you? You know, he also says it.

He also says something in the stairway when he tells Nate that he's his biggest regret. That Nate's my biggest regret. And I don't think Nate himself is my biggest regret. I think regret is the opportunity to miss out and out of it. really kind of changed the narrative and the story with what I've handed down from my father to him. It's so it's so powerful and upset.

And it's like it's the kind of scene where in another show, we cannot sympathize of the father calling his family assholes. But in a show like Euphoria, we're in a place where we're just, I mean, first of all, we see Nate do tremendously toxic things. But we're in a place where we can access all these people. spent this whole episode with Cal watching him. I mean, do you feel like Cal is trying to kill himself in this episode? There's so many, I mean, the driving scenes alone, terrifying.

He's trying to kill himself. I just don't think he cares if he achieves the goal. I'm not so sure that's what he's set out to do. I think he's just, I think he's completely lost it. I think he's lost it. And nothing else matters. And the last 20-some-odd years of his life were a lie. Cal's going through changes,

Jonah. Okay. You know, okay, so we talked about how you wanted to do something demonstrally different from what you've done before,

but it's really interesting because when Cal is talking about who he is on the stairs, he's talking to Marcia about, you know, his sexuality and who he is sex with and all this kind of stuff. It reminded me a little,

like, do you see a path from Mark Sloan? I mean, you said sort of glibly in season one, you're like, well, the thing that you're nice, Mark Sloan and Cal Jacobs is they're both naked.

Okay, that's true. But like in this, in this scene, when he's talking about his sexuality and he's talking about this sort of like voracious appetite for sex, like, do you see a connection between those two characters? And is that connection interesting? Because in Mark, we have this very classic, you know, alpha male character that we got to know. And then this is just a really interesting other side of that coin.

I never thought of it like that. I totally agree with you. Yeah, I think there's a through line there. They're both. I mean, Cal still is very alpha male. He's just moved off nurses. Again, clip. What do you think about, I mean, both Euphoria and Grace have been shows that have had tremendous

cultural impact just in different ways, very different ways. What do you think of the cultural impact that Euphoria has had? It's wild. I mean, the cultural impact that Grace has. had was wild and I find myself once again at a part of that cultural impact it's it's pretty surreal um you know and i i hope the gray's fans can come along on this ride with me i i do know they're die hard and they're ride or die fans and they may not get the transition but for me it made sense and And to work with all these talented young adults and Sam Levinson on a on a fearless network is just a dream come true for me.

I don't know if that answered your question, but something that I think was really interesting when you were talking about season one, you were talking about, you know, there's that whole debate about whether or not euphoria was glamorizing a certain behavior for teens. And your stance was like, no, if anything, this is a cautionary tale. I think that's clearer than ever in season two, which is willing to go to even darker places, I think, than season one. What if you heard from people watching the show in terms of, I mean, you talked about your own experience with addiction about what this show is doing in terms of exposing realities about addiction? I don't have my thumb on the pulse, so to speak. But I do know that this is not a love letter to drugs. you know, I think it was a little bit hard to distinguish that season one because it's so beautifully shot.

I think you're right. Season two, it's very, very clear, painfully obvious, that it's a cautionary tale. You said Cal's going through changes. Can you tease anything for me? What can you tell me? Look, what I can say is that my hopes for this character is that he ends up finding himself in a set of certain sense

where he can be a good parent, where he can be the father that he never got a chance to be. I don't want to spoil too much of it, but the finale's going to be cool. Thanks for the chat. I really appreciate it. Anytime, Joanna.

All right, that is it for us this week. We'll be back, of course, with episode five next week. Nora, until then, I know you're very busy. I've heard that there's a lot going on with football right now. Where can folks find you? They can hear me Sunday on the Ringer NFL show with Kevin Clark, Stephen Ruiz. and Benjamin Solek, we will be all together to break down the conference championship games.

Maybe Joe Burrell will wear sunglasses again, who's to say? And then the following week, we're going to be getting ready for the Super Bowl. We're all going to be in L.A. It's going to be very exciting. There's going to be a lot of stuff coming out of that. And we will make sure to keep everybody posted. Excellent. You'll hear me talking about other TV in this feed and elsewhere.

This episode was produced by Steve Allman, and we will see you. You know, hopefully not on the road where Cal is driving next week.