The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 5: Toe to Toe

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Jo and Rob put their best foot forward to recap 'Euphoria' Season 3, Episode 5. (0:00) Intro (1:24) ATX TV Festival (3:51) Euphoria S3E5 overall impressions (5:17) Mailbag check-in (8:25) Cassie (12:04) Attack Of The 50 ft. Woman (16:08) What is Cassie’s business model? (17:14) People stealing Maddy’s shine (18:21) Hype house/drill house (20:06) Alamo (21:35) Media consumption (25:34) Bishop (27:48) Location inspirations (29:05) Is Euphoria subjective or objective? (30:58) Underserved characters (35:03) Cassie performs Shakespeare  (37:30) Maddy, Rue, and Equanimity (40:04) Maddy (48:25) Nate (50:41) Finale expectations (53:14) Faye and her Nazi boyfriend Email us! [e-mail] or [e-mail] Follow us on IG and TikTok! Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady, Devon Renaldo, and Jamie Yukich Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's Mother's Day Sunday. Happy Mother's Day show. Happy Mother's Day, Rob. In a nearly empty, rather spooky office, here we are to cover our sort of very instant reactions to Euphoria episode 5. Having a real normal one at work once again here on a Sunday, Rob. How are you feeling? I'm feeling great. Spoiler alert, I really like this episode.

And I guess in the spirit of Happy Mother's Day, I mean, it really felt like a Happy Mother's Day to Suez, who I can only imagine is thriving seeing Cassie's content. Brooming with pride. I'm sure. How could you not? I'm sure. Wow. Okay. I didn't know that you really...

That's so funny. I just sat and watched the episode with you. We didn't talk about it. I didn't know that you really liked the episode. I mean, our watching style is a lot of muffled like, hmm. Ha! I mean, we were basically magic's like recollection of the he-he-ha-ha-haing. Yeah, yeah.

That was us in a dark room watching this episode of Euphoria. So again, very normal stuff happening. Very normal stuff here at work. All right. Season 3, episode 5, this little piggy. This is a spoiler alert for that. Before we get into our euphoria cover today, we just wanted to give a quick shout-out.

to the Austin Television Festival. They have an incredible lineup this year, and we were hoping to go, but we're really jealous. We can't go. Loathe to miss it. But I just want to shout out a few highlights. House of the Dragon, season three,

they're doing like a big inside the Battle of the Gullet opening night thing for House of the Dragon. Incredible. The other Bennett sister, which is like a current TV obsession of mine, they're doing a panel four. And then they're doing a sweet vicious reunion. Sweet Vicious was a show.

When we first covered the pit, I was like, that's why I first saw Taylor Dearden. So, like, Taylor Dearden of the pit fame will be there. Yeah, exactly. And they're doing a reunion of this great canceled-too-soon MTV show. Ramoni, what's the other big thing happening there that we're really bummed to miss? Possibly a giant anniversary collection of talent and celebration of Friday Night Lights, one of our favorite shows.

Connie Britton, Kyle Chandler. In the flesh. Jesse Plemons, Scott Porter, Amy Tegarden, Adrian Palicki. The whole gang is going to be there in all. Austin. But not us. But not us. So it's May 28th through the 31st. You can still get tickets and badges and all that good stuff at ATX festival.com. We wish we were going. But we're not, but a lot of great people who cover television are going. And I've been many years this festival. It's really incredible because it's very small and intimate. You get to sort of meet a bunch of people who

write about television that you love. You can. And if you're interested in getting into television, it's one of the best places you can go. So no free ads except for our pals at the Austin Television. Livision Festival, which is a great place. Well, let me make you a pitch show. In the spirit of ATX. Sure. And their tent pole attraction being Friday Night Lights. Correct.

You and I have discussed possibly, you know, euphoria has inspired us to look backwards at some other high school oriented or high school originated shows. I think we simply must podcast about one of the grades of all time, Friday Night Lights, in the near future. Wait, are you telling me Texas Forever? I mean, you already know that. Texas Forever on this podcast? Now more than ever.

Okay, yeah. We are planning to check in with a couple classic. teen TV shows that like Euphoria have generated a crop of talent, you know, like your Jesse Plumman's is. We're also maybe, can I say? Yeah. Skins UK. Probably the closest Euphoria analog, I would think. Absolutely.

And an amazing crop of talent came out of that show. So we are planning to touch on those shows this month on the rest of TV feed. But today, it's Euphoria Day. Okay. overall impressions, you really liked this episode. I thought it was a really good Cassie episode and basically like a whole entire really good backdoor pilot Maddie subplot. I was actually as I was typing up my notes, you and I like split up and typed up our

notes and I was like, I wonder if Maddie's number one boy enjoyed this. This is a great Maddie episode. What do you think I think? Yeah. Well, I mean like I think the Cassie stuff, I feel very mixed on the Cassie stuff. And I feel like a lot of other characters are not being wholly served. you know, like, who was less served by this episode, Nate, Jules, or Lexi, I don't know, it's a toss-up. But this is a stellar Maddie episode.

And I'm really happy for Alexademi. So I told you before we watched this episode, I got some hints about, like, what was happening in this episode. And it felt like Madlibs. And it was Attack of the 50 Foot Woman. So I did watch that movie earlier today. I don't think I needed to, but I did. We got the gist regardless. Attack of 50-foot woman.

I watched the original 1958 version, which is only like an hour long, and it's kind of a bop. So I recommend it. And then I knew there was going to be a Shakespearean monologue. I did not know it was going to be Anthony and Cleopatra.

We could talk about that. And equanimity as like a buzzword for this episode. Oh, that was in the word cloud too. Yeah. So we got it all. That's perhaps when she said equanimity and I was like, hmm, that's, you might have heard me say that. I just thought you were fond of the concept.

I thought you had found your own inner piece. Let's do quick mailbag, shall we? Okay. So we did a little Nepo Baby roll call, and I've got an update from our roll call last week. One of our listeners in the comments wrote something that I thought was so wild, it could not be true. And then I looked up and it is true. Okay. Which is that your girl, Alexa Demi, is the step-granddaughter.

Now we're getting in the weeds. No, but a step-granddaughter. All right. To Dennis. Like, Rockefeller? Like, who is it going to be? Dennis Wilson, one of the original Beach Boys. That one is pretty crazy.

Yeah. So Alexa Demi... I mean, I'm not saying Alexa Demi Nebo Baby, but related to the Beach Boys-ish in a way. So that's amazing. I mean, Maddie, I may not always love you, but as long as there are stars above you, et cetera, et cetera. Genuinely, I was like, which Beach Boys a lyric is a rag going to quote to me when I say this. There's so many fucking bangers to pull from. It's true. I love the Beach Boys.

And then we didn't mention, we didn't say it explicitly on the pod, but shout out our social media team who put it in the caption for the breakout. But of course, Sam Levinson himself comes from Hollywood Royals. Barry Levinson, his father, directed Rain Man, among a ton of other things. You may have heard of him. You know, it's a real like For Us-Bias, Nepo Baby production here. All right. And then we got emails from a couple people. I had mentioned that Kadim Hardison, who plays the Alamo employee who got got shot.

But I guess this is alive. He's in the hospital. Apparently. Okay. I mentioned that when he flipped his glasses, I felt like that was a reference. to his iconic character on a different world, what I didn't know, because I'm too old, is that he played Zendaya's dad on a Disney channel show,

Casey Undercover, and he did the same move on that show. So apparently it's like... That's just a signature move. It's just like in his contract that he has to do it. But I did not know that he played Zendaya's dad in one of her early projects. So like, I hope this is, she's like, get my TV done in Euphoria.

It'll be really normal. Like, you know? It is a generational blind spot for us, though. Yeah. Because, yeah, the Gen Z people who, who emailed us were many. Yes. We're enthusiastic.

Thanks for listening, Jen C. Thanks for listening. I'm glad you have this particular touchstone. I'm also glad to know that that particular move transcends role. It's like an Isaiah Whitlock Jr. Like she. Right, right, right. It just can follow you anywhere you go.

Just the move. And then Jazz wrote in to talk to us about Love Island USA, which we, you know, we addressed last week that Jules was watching Love Island USA. What I did not know is that Zendaya and Hunter Schaefer in real life are huge Love Island USA fans, Jez let us know. Apparently recently when Zendaya was on

the Jennifer Hudson show to promote the drama, they got a cameo from one of the Love Island contestants and Zendaya lost her mind about it. That's how much of a

Love Islander she is. But apparently Love Island USA is just, I mean, I knew Love Island was a thing, but I guess Love Island USA, the last couple seasons, has just like really exploded

in, I think, in Gen Z. So in Gen Z, that's a weird way to put it, but there you go. So that's the Levin'I. Island. Welcome to Sunday night euphoria. Anything else you want to mention that we got emails about or anything like that? No, I think we can keep it moving. What do you want to start with from this week? Great question. I'll start with Cassie. Let's start with a Sydney-Switty Rehumiliation ritual,

which continues a pace. It really does. I mean, look, this whole opening montage is Euphoria having its toes and sucking them too? I was really feeling for you as you continue to tally up your, the case. list of the season. You and I both had a... It was quite something. It was toe to toe because we had a real issue with the toe sucking. And then when Nate's toe got re-ripped off, that was a tough one for us.

That was really tough. Hard to watch yet again. But yeah, I thought this opening montage is like, I mean, this, before is not a show that Blanche is at any of its fetish content. But it is a show that can do all this and indulge in it and comment on that content in a way that I do quite enjoy, and dare I say for like a dildo-oriented montage, I find it to be quite artfully done. This is a question that I had for you, which is what do you think the collective noun for dildos should be? I wrote down plethora of dildos.

I did look it up. There is a Reddit thread about this. Really? I did ruin my own search history by typing in what is the collective noun for dildos. Happy mother's day. Do you think it's what our moms dreamed we would be doing with our careers? God, I hope not. Gaggle of dildos is what Reddit.

Yeah, gaggle is pretty good. the first word that came to mind for me was smattering. A smattering. I think it was too many dildos to be a mere smattering. That's true. They were like heaped on the counter. Well, they weren't just on the counter. They were on the dish rack. Yeah, they were everywhere. I will say this.

Especially during the very specific part of this section when we get like all the different things that Cassie is doing for her clientele, it made me miss Cat. Like the humiliation aspect. I was thinking a lot about Cat. The way that this storyline was done for Cat in season one is among like some of my favorite stuff that Euphoria did. So it just like, and that felt this, to your point, you're watching, you're like, oh, my God, euphoria.

There's nothing like it. You're just like, it's wildly indulgent. It's all these things. It's maximalist. But I was just missing the profundity of that moment for Kat and what that meant for a young woman, like, just discovering her power and her sexuality and all of that. You know what I mean? Well, especially when that whole plot line was just kind of jettisoned into the sun midstream. Right.

Like there was not a lot of follow through on it, like to much controversy around the trajectory of the show in that. character. I mean, kid and queen did walk so that it's just me, Cassie, can run. I'd miss it too. And I thought, like, obviously there's more than enough room on the internet for multiple women to tell men that

they're nothing in order to get them off. It's a very crowded space. I mean, it's a crucial part of the formula. But revisiting that specific ground, it's very hard not to think about cat. Absolutely. This is the the chaser to this particular shot is

Cassie's tour of various podcasts. Want to come on the podcast? Manosphere-esque. That's the whiff of what's going on here. What do you think of her talking points, Joe? Well, I mean, men are treated as second-class citizens in America. I agree. I'm just waiting for you to say it.

Thank you very much. I'm going to put it on a t-shirt. I thought what I loved about the sequence. So Tricia Paitis, you know, real-life podcasting personality, who is recently very funny on the TV, on the HBO show Hacks, shows up. And when Trisha Paitis, who is like a bit of a ridiculous person, is reacting to Kathy like, huh? I thought that was perfect, Cassie.

Really sense the mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good. And this comes, this all dovetails into the attack of the 50-foot woman sequence. What did you think of that? I feel like if you can't enjoy the show. when it does this. I fear you might be watching the wrong show. This is exactly, again, indulgent is the right word.

You isolated as far as what euphoric and be. This sort of like extended homage that is at one point like just ridiculous and funny. And for me it's like all the little things. It's the helicopter telling her to get on her knees specifically. It's the way she like swats the chopper with her ponytail. It's like stepping on this poor dude in his tent. Like there's so many just funny moments. And yet it is also a giant Cassie literally praying.

to the Hollywood sign in a way that like this just is what the show is and I quite enjoy that part of it. The Jesus Save sign on top of the Ace Hotel, etc., etc. They did mention the behind the scenes sequence that it took them a year to build these miniatures,

which... With all due respect to the artisans creating these miniatures. Well, my follow question is, how long did it take to make the giant breasts? The breasts that like burst through the window. I had the same thought of like, not even how long it took,

but there is just, there is a craftsperson here in town who went home after a long day of work. And they're like, honey, how was your day? I was like, you know what? It was okay. I had to create giant replicas of Sidney's boops that could convincingly puncture glass and smother this man

to his satisfaction. That is a real thing that somebody had to do. And perhaps their partners like, give me a skill. And they're like, nipples like this. On the attack of the 50-foot woman front, what I think is interesting, you know, they're playing not just with that imagery, but also Godzilla, which they mentioned, you know, overtly, like the helicopter is like, you know, very Godzilla. Kaiju Cassie straight up.

Yeah, absolutely. I wasn't so aware before I did my mini research today about how pervasive attack of the 50-foot woman is in the culture. Like, I knew there was the 58 version. I knew there was a 90s remake with Daryl Hanna, 93. I did not know that both Beyonce and Lana Del Rey have incorporated it into their, Lana Del Rey did a music video and Beyonce is part of her

Cowboy Carter tour like made it part of the visuals or Cowboy Carter tour and Tim Burton and Gillian Flynn of Gone Girl fame as of 2024 we're working on a version of it starring Margot Robbie so it's interesting. What I think is kind of fascinating about using

the attack of the 50 foot woman for Cassie is that it's kind of weirdly 1958 kind of a feminist bop like this woman has this horrible husband who's cheating on her. And the whole town is like kind of gaslighting her. She's very rich.

And so they're all, and she has a drinking problem. And they're all like, she's a rich lady with a drinking problem. We got to, like, built her for all the money she has. She has, like, one friend in the world, and it's her employee, her butler. And then she just gets really big and just kills everyone. Wronged her. And I was like, all right, which I can understand why both Lana Delray and Beyonce. We're like, sounds great.

Let's do it. to put that with Cassie in her I Love Men t-shirt is just an interesting exposition. It's funny. I mean, like many things with Cassie, there is a hollowing out to this poor woman that just like takes, yeah, the idea of like a kind of feminist text wrapped in its own kind of like fetish context. A tale is old as time. Cassie's applications of most of these things are not quite so nuanced or complicated. It's just like, yeah, she got really big and popular. That being said, when Maddie's like talking about Nate not being a bread winner but a bread loser and bars.

Give me that shirt. Are you kidding me? I thought the way that Cindy Swinie peaked out from behind the flowers is she's like admitting that she wired him money was really funny. I love that shot. But when Maddie's like cut him loose or else he'll get 50% of everything you make, that's like literally a plot line from attack of the 50 foot woman where her shitty husband's like, I'm going to get her committed and or kill her so I can get all of her money. While we're talking about what Cassie makes, let's walk through, as this episode explains them. Let's stomp through, please. Like the business model of what Cassie is working with here, which is subscription fees, obviously.

She's on OnlyFans. You're paying. Yeah. 50,000 subscribers. I mean, a lot. That's not nothing. Yeah. Some nominal fee, I would think, for like the ASMR type content on top of the subscription.

Oh, yeah. No, those, I mean, I'm unfamiliar with OnlyFans modeling, but I have seen a lot of, like, the Camgirl business modeling. And it's just sort of like all of those special, like, oh, for sure. Rock up money. But do you think the ASMR like whisper my name and what I would like you to do to me into this weird microphone? Is that above in cost to the $50 used panties through FedEx or is that below, do you think? I thought it was less than $50. That was my assumption.

Yeah. And certainly less than a fart in a jar. Who's to say, man? Who's to say? Maddie's number one boy at gmail.com. if you know what these sort of price scaling for OnlyFans is often. I'm curious and I would like to know. And here's where I got really pissed at Cassie.

How easily she's led in general, that's just her Cassiness. But both Brandon and Nate just swooping and trying to steal Maddie's shine, like Maddie's nothing, Maddie's not doing anything, Brandon being like she's a Hollywood leech, she's done nothing, it's all because I tagged you. Well, we have just watched a montage of Maddie Grinding, Cassie Grinding, literally, but also like Maddie on the grind. Like, you know, and I got very mad about it, as I'm meant to.

We did get an email from our listener Rio who was wondering. So Brandon has an influencer house, very hype house coded. It's called Drill House in the contract that Cassie signs. We're going to come back to that in a second. But I didn't know this. Our listener Rio wrote in within the last hour. You can always email us the hour between when the episode airs and we start recording. We encourage it.

Yeah. There's a Netflix docu-series, for the devil, the $7 million TikTok cults. Okay. Yeah. And it's about this, like, church cult thing that, you know, lord influencers and sort of parted them from their money and their families and their friends and their lives. So do you think Brandon...

You got to read that fine print. Do you think Drill House is, like, are we going to see something culty here? Or is it just a standard hype? I mean, because the thing about hype house or any of these influencer houses, not that I'm an expert, but like it would be a far worse deal for Cassie to sign away any of her, like to sign that contract to Drill House and they own all of what Cassie makes. Yes. I think the percentage is going to be way worse than the mere 15% that Maddie was taking. I would think that said, we don't know what's in Maddie's contract.

And the whole like, let me get a picture of you with this autograph did seem a little like you want to read the fine print, Willie Wonka Ursula style to make sure you know exactly what you're doing. For both. Get a lawyer for both. Like, okay, but should we, I'm not a lawyer. Yeah. No? Should we be concerned that she signed this other contract? Well, she didn't deliver it, did she?

Do we know that? I guess we don't. We saw her sign it. I'm just asking questions. We saw her sign it. If she delivered that and she signed it before she signed Maddie's contract, like, is that something? She might have just signed it and left in her apartment and then, like, you know, tossed it on the dildo pile. Like when she got back from Maddie's apartment, I don't know.

But I was just wondering about that. I think it's a totally fair question to ask. Both contracts clearly could be problems for Cassie. But I'm with you. Anything that removes you from ownership of your own content for whatever purposes that may be, even if your content is just, I want to be the ninth person in this group that's learning the Apple dance. Right. Like, you just remove yourself from so much of the economic equation when you do that.

Yes. And like, should we be worried about this contract that Cassie signed for Maddie, given especially that Maddie is now getting into business with Alamo. Absolutely. Depends on your point of view. From a TV entertainment point of view? Am I concerned about it? I'm not terribly.

Should Cassie be, should Sues be worried? Probably. Okay. Alamo has a real like Joe Pesci, Goodfellas. Am I, like,

am I a comedian to you? This is funny, like, moment. Except it's about being 5'9. Yeah. What did you think of this moment? And what did you think of it as a size? conversation in contrast to this sort of like Cassie is enormous and then Alamo's feeling small. Like what did you think of that?

I found this to be more effective than some of the other Alamo rants and conversations throughout this season, most of which I felt like we're just sort of like transported to a totally different kind of show or just like a poor imitation of another thing that we've seen before. This at least captured, I think, something about this character that felt a little more interesting and a little more original, even if it is something like just being kind of metaphorically I was down for that part of it. And we kind of move on fast enough that it's sort of setting us up that, yes, this is a fixation point in this moment.

But more importantly, Alamo is just kind of on tilt right now. Yes. It will take very little to get him on the polo horse. Yes. Okay. Does he strike you as a polo gentleman? As much as Nate strikes me as a vinyl guy. Our Meltorme guy.

Meltorme guy. Now, we do pan across the sea of sublime. Yeah. 100%. 100%, but like streaming on Spotify. Not a physical media fan. No, no, no, I don't think so. I got very excited about the Mel Torre,

but I did not think that it was something that Nate would listen to. Speaking of what media people are consuming, so at one point when Rue goes in to talk to Alamo, he's playing the trumpet, kitty is sort of sprawled on the couch. It's a metaphor. They're watching Gilda, the Rita Hayworth movie,

which people who maybe are not Rita Hayworth, knowers might know from Shawshank Redemption. It's the very scene where Morgan Freeman is like, this is the part I really like when she does that shit with her hair. Like she flips her hair up, right? I was curious. Like, I don't think these things are in here by accident just for fun, right? Do you have any thoughts about why Rita Hayworth and Gilda might be here?

I have no idea. Okay. Do you have any? I have too many thoughts. I mean, hit me, please. Well, something, so Kitty in last week's episode, dance, to an Anne Margaret track. And Sam Levinson, I went to this event last week with the Euphoria Heads of Department and

Sam Levinson was there. And he was talking about how much this actress reminded him of Anne Margaret just like and her, the exact sort of ginger shade of her hair is like very Anne Margaret sex kitten. Rita Hayworth, other famous redhead. We get a Julia Roberts scene also. So we've got a bunch of famous like Hollywood redheads. But Rita Hayworth is quite famous for a few things. Horrible marriages.

A horrific makeover thing. Like, you know, years of, like, electrolysis to, like, heighten her hairline, you know, just to make her look whiter. You know, she's a Latino woman, and they, like, dyed her hair red and did all this, like, cosmetic makeover to turn her into this, like, Hollywood ideal. So thinking of, like, the Cassie makeover and stuff like that. But perhaps most importantly, the third thing that Rita Hayworth is known, for is terrible contracts inside of the studio system of Hollywood, right? And this is an interview she gave in 1968 talking about our contract. She said, quote, I used to have to punch a time clock at Columbia every day of my life.

That's what it was like. I was under exclusive contract like they own me. And she's talking about Harry Cohn, the head of Columbia at the time. I think he had my dressing room bugged. He was very possessive of me as a person. He didn't want me to go out with anybody, have any friends. No one can live that way, so I fought him. You want to know what I think of Harry Cohn?

He was a monster. So she sued to get out of her con. It's like all part of the legacy. But like, I don't know. I'm probably overthinking it. No, I don't think so. But thinking about like Rita Hayworth as this sort of very famous. Like she's from the outside has been made synonymous with Hollywood glamour.

You think of Rita Hayworth. You're like, that is, you know, golden age Hollywood glamour. And the reality is horrifically painful makeover. Died in an actually quite tragic way. And this horrible con, like, she did not think her life was a fairy tale, you know? And so this idea of like, especially if the other clip we see in this episode is from Pretty Woman, which famously starts with sort of like, what's your dream? You know, city of dreams, right? And it's sort of like the blend we're getting of the Hollywood studio system, the sex working industry.

What's the difference between the two? I'm sure Euphoria would like us all to ask that question. I don't know. I think it's, I'm curious, Maddie's number one boy at gmail.com if you guys have different reasons why you think this is here. But I always like to overthink why various film clips are being used. I really don't think it's overthinking at all, especially to have that scene be in an Alamo-oriented setting

where so much of his involvement in this episode and he lays it out kind of explicitly when he meets up with Rue and Maddie later. It's like, just like equanimity was probably on the mood board for this episode. episode, I think deals with the devil 100% on the mood board for this episode. And so that whole idea of a really corrupted contract that is like sucking all the life out of you before it casts you aside. I mean, that's all throughout this week's episode. Absolutely. What did you think of Bishop's cursed monologue that he had here? I quite like it. It gave me the revelation that I haven't had before a bishop, which is he feels like the most Fargo character on this show. Absolutely.

You could just drop him straight into any thing. season of that show. Oh, yeah, and I agree. Like Fargo, the TV show. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Like a season, a real season two. A real season two.

I don't agree that Rue is cursed, but she does have like a certain chaos that sort of follows her everywhere, that if you are as ordered as Bishop is, you could see as a curse. We love Daryl Berwick Gibson. We think he's so good as Bishop. Something that Sam Levinson told me last week is that both Daryl and Anna Van Patton, who plays Kitty, he was so enamored and impressed by their performance. that he expanded their roles for them. We really enjoyed Kitty's debut last week.

Definitely. He told me that he, at the last minute, wrote Daryl Brett Gibson, like a huge speech for next week, episode six. So, like, you know, like, I kind of like knowing that about Euphoria, that it is almost instantaneously reactive to the elements that are working, you know? Like, in the behind the scenes that we get for this week's episode, when they are talking about the Maddie Alamo chemistry. Like, I agree.

I think the two of those, Adiwale and Alexa's, like, they were incredible together. So I don't know if they wrote even more for them in this season, but I wouldn't be, by them, I mean, the lone writer Sam Levinson. But I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Yeah. I think that's all you really want out of TV. And it's the unique opportunity that it has relative to a movie, right? Is you can really capture the lightning in the bottle and then you can chase it for much, much longer. Well, I think what's interesting is, like, with something like euphoria where you have a loan creator and,

and a very long process of making the seasons. You have more, I would say, freedom to do that because for most other short season shows, like you're locked, you've written your scripts, and by the time you're shooting, that's what, like, the 22-episode seasons were for because you would, like, write seven episodes of time and you would react.

And so, like, euphoria is sort of distinctive in that way. Sure is, Joe. Another thing I learned, and I hope these tidbits are interesting, but another thing I learned is that Alamo's house is based on this like abandoned Mike Tyson Ohio mansion. And if you Google Mike Tyson abandoned Ohio mansion, I simply am going to do it right now. You will see some like familiar visuals and it's quite interesting.

Oh, wow. Yeah, you can see a pretty striking similarity in terms of some of the vistas, some of the architecture. Also, I would live here. Yeah. I would in fact live there. It's just sitting abandoned in Ohio? Should we go there?

I think we should. That's the prestige mansion. Now, that's the prestige, like, drill house style. This will be our content factory. Yeah, and you have to work on Sunday. Oh, you have to work on Sunday nights, man. That's the hell we've created for ourselves. The Nate and Cassie House, which gets even more blood on the carpet in this episode,

was based off of, they wanted something that felt like a casino, like Sharon Stone, who's in this show, but like a hot mess express in casino. So that's what they wanted is, like, proximate to a golf course, the shag carpet, All of that. They're trying to... A sliding glass door that somebody could, like,

terminate her their way through, perhaps. Yeah, yeah, perhaps. The really most fascinating thing I learned from this lunch that I went to, though, is that a couple people talk to me about the differences

between... I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. The difference between season one and season... Season one and two and season three is that their view is that the perspective in season one and season two is subjective. It is ruse,

sort of we're inside, her head, fantasy subjective. This season is meant to be much more objective. And I'm still wrapping my head around that because... Like a man was literally smothered by giant Sydney Sweeney's breasts? Well, between the Rue voiceover, which is still here, so we're still... Kind of. Less so, I would say.

And then, yeah, we're still getting, like, fantasy sequences. So I think it's meant to be sort of a wider view and less Roo-centric, which is definitely true. you know, perhaps due to Zendaya's schedule, I don't know. But like, I don't know. I'm curious to keep tracking that idea of objective versus subjective. I'm not sure I have fully have the sense of it yet. I'm not going to lie to you. It never occurred to me the euphoric could be an objective show.

Right. It's so impressionistic, regardless of if you're going into the weird kind of imaginative sequences or not, that, yeah, we're maybe not anchored so much to Rue, but I'm with you. We've broadened out the scope. It still feels tonally kind of similar to where we've been. Checking in on the, and obviously this is just a small sampling of the people who are watching Euphoria, but checking in on the Reddit boards, like, which I like to do right after the episode aired, there's a lot of frustration from people that they feel like Sidney Sweeney is sort of overwhelming this season,

which was one of my complaints earlier this season. I did really like Cassie last week, and I liked a lot of what's going on with Cassie, especially now that she is, like, in Maddie's storyline, in Lexi's storyline. Like, all of that works much better for me. but if you come to Euphoria for Jules or for maybe even I would argue inside of this episode, Roo, you might feel like you're not getting the show that you want to get. Well, yeah, do you want to talk about some of those characters? Because I think Nate's in that category too.

It feels at this point. Yeah, but who comes to Euphoria for Nate? I mean, I hope nobody. True sickos. Real toe enthusiasts of a kind. I guess not finger enthusiasts. Just digit fanatics of all sorts. The velvet fogheads themselves.

But I would say now that Maddie has been sort of pulled into the Alamo Ru part of things, Nate and Jules feel like the most stranded on like the outskirts of the story. And there are different ways that they could get pulled in at various times. But Jules especially is just like in her little like condo ivory tower, not really interacting with anyone. I actually did quite like the scene chest with Rue here. it's maybe like a little direct in terms of isolating what it is about those two characters hold deals. But this concept that like Jules is somebody who is always kind of like aspired for things and dreamed of things. And Rue is like kind of comfortably numb even when she's at her best.

That tension I do think is an interesting thing to highlight. Were you surprised to find out that they have not been kissing? No. Okay. Only because Rue is such a like chill on the couch kind of character. Well, so this is this is a follow up to a previous conversation. had where one of our listeners was like, hey, this hypersexual rue that we see in the strip club, this angel rue, sexual dynamic doesn't feel like the rue we've known before.

And it almost as if the show heard them, we get this scene with Jules, right, where Jules is bringing up the same issue they had in season two, which is just like, are you passionate about me? I would like passion. The heartbreaking cut from, like, grab me by the face and kiss me and make me yours to, like, loud sex sounds, but like, it's euphoria, and we're like, I know it's going to be the fucker Ellis, you know? And then this, like, but what's interesting is the contrast between Jules' desire to be, like, wholly possessed, wholly passionately wanted.

But then when she's treated like a possession by Ellis, I thought, I thought the moment where Ellis is like, I love my, I like you, but I love my family. Yeah. right like here here's where you are on the ranking hunter schaefer's face jules's face in that moment was extremely heartbreaking and so like am i getting all the jules content i want no but hunter shaffer is like as always deliver delivering but um what's interesting about jules is like unlike a lot of well no i mean i would say rude too but like what's always been so interesting about the jules storyline is that her dad, much more, you know, we saw much more of him in season one, but has always been

depicted as like a really supportive, loving parent. And so... Like a little oblivious, but generally supportive. But, you know, I was thinking, not as basic as daddy issues, but thinking about, like, what, what whole inside of her heart is Jules trying to desperately chase and fill here? I mean, the trauma of what her mom did to her is certainly there. But she does, she does have this other loving parent, which is, you know, does not heal

heal all wounds. But I don't know. I'm just like thinking a lot about jewels and I want more jewels is what I want. I do too. I think that's what makes it

hard to see these sorts of sense because you're right. It just makes you want more and more jewels in the story and I don't know what the inroads for that are

other than a continued exploration of everything going on with Ellis, which I agree with you. Like to me, one of the standout moments in terms of just Hunter Schaefer's reactions as jewels there.

And specifically the idea that it's not even that she's being treated like a possession. It's that she's almost like less than that. It's like if he had come in and been upset because he was feeling possessive of her,

that would have been one sort of feeling. But it's not even that he's feeling possessive. It's just like, I don't want to catch anything. Right. And therefore, you can't be out there in the streets like that. You can't endanger my family. That's part of it. But also he literally wrapped her in plastic.

Oh, totally. You know, also a possession. Yes. And she like loved it, question mark. I don't know. Was game for it at the very least. Dear Canadian exporters, our ambitions, our ideas,

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Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. All right, let's see. What else do I want to talk about? Oh, obviously I want to talk about Shakespeare. Yeah, as the foremost scholar here at the ringer, Joe. Oh, that's not true. How did you feel about Cassie's representation of the bard?

Okay, again, I was told there was a Shakespeare monologue in this episode. I happened Sunday. yesterday morning I had breakfast with my high school English teacher a really normal thing to do We respect English teachers But that's just like the most Joanna Robinson shit I can imagine you say

Shout out Phil Goodyear is the best I had breakfast with him and this other woman who's an English teacher and so I was telling him I was like there's a Shakespeare monologue I've been told in Euphoria Which Shakespeare monologue do we think it is We were sort of like all placing bets on what we thought it would be None of us got it right

And I did text him while we were watching. Holy fuck, it's Anthony and Cleopatra for some reason. Guess what? She's Cleopatra. I will say Mr. Gutierrez was the closest, because he guessed the Lady Macbeth unsex me here. And I'm kind of tempted to believe that they picked this particular monologue from Antean Cleopatra so they could have Sidney Sweeney say,

lay me stark naked and let the waterflies blow me into a hoaring. I'm pretty sure that that's why this particular monologue was picked. reverse engineer from there. Yeah. What did you make of the Shakespeare? I thought it was funny mostly in the like if she can do Shakespeare, she could do L.A. Knights part. I think the way it was shot were meant to think she was good at it.

I think she was reasonably good. I think she's better than you would expect Cassie to be at it. Better than somebody who was just negotiating whether she should fart in a jar and send it to somebody. It's a fact. Better than someone in like a butterfly halter you would expect. 100%. She contains multitude. She did pretty well.

Pretty well. Do you think the casting video itself had the same sort of like tasteful, intensifying slow zoom? That guy was just locked in on that zoom. That's one of my favorite tricks that whenever shows and movies are trying to depict someone acting in a way that everyone's impressed by, you can work with reaction shots of people being like, oh my God. But often it's the camera is doing like a slow zoom in or a pan around. It's like a really good visual shortcut. Can I tell you something? Yeah.

It works on me every time. I am susceptible to that sort of manipulation. Okay. Maddie Ruin, equanimity. What did you think of this? I mean, she's a philosopher. Yeah. You know, I did love, you know, he's not a breadwinner.

He's a bread loser. I mean, that's phenomenal stuff. Maybe the quantity is keeping you from the quality. That's real, you know? That's a very real concept. And her whole show she'll get an equanimity, I mean, genuinely unbelievable. believable stuff for Maddie this week. When you're thinking about Maddie as a religious person.

Yeah. That was news to me. Well, I was going to ask you. I mean, look, we saw the crucifix dangling tastefully right above the butt crack at the wedding. That's not where she dangles it. You know what I mean? Like, real Jenny calendar shave from Maddie. But yeah, the way in which the religious themes are and are not being either seamlessly

integrated or sort of like hit you over the head with it this season is something that we're tracking. Equanimity is interesting. because it's a religious, it's a philosophical idea, it's a Buddhist idea, it's a whatever idea, but it is an idea that comes up a lot in addiction and recovery. This is, this is from a specific, a website that's devoted to like women and recovery. Equanimity is the ability to remain calm and balance regardless of external circumstances. This state of mind allows us to approach challenges with clarity, resilience, and compassion. Equanimity is particularly valuable in addiction recovery. It helps individuals navigate the ups and downs.

of the healing process, reducing the risk of relapse. So as Rue is on her journey of recovery, is equanimity and this idea of something bigger than yourself. I think that, you know, not just giant, Sydney, Sweeney boobs, but also just sort of like the religious idea of there's something bigger than me, this is how small I am in the grand scheme of things, and that can make all of my problems feel smaller and achievable. Because, again, and it doesn't, you don't even have to. I have a friend of mine who's an astrophysicist who talks about how when she thinks about how massive the galaxy is,

it makes her problems feel absolutely tiny in a way that makes her feel great, actually. So I think that's interesting. This is the narrow ledge we walk as human beings, right? Because there is that, do you stare out into the infinite abyss and feel like your problems are small? Or do you stare at it into the infinite abyss and feel like you are small and you are insignificant? What kind of abyss gazing are you? I mean, it really depends on the day. Okay.

Do you do you have a strong leaning? I think I take comfort in how small we are and how, what a brief time we're here in the grand scheme of things. I mean, it really just depends on what you're trying to talk yourself into. I'm not going to lie to you. But I did love Maddie's place in this and her as a counterbalance to Root. Like, as we talked about earlier, Roo is such a chaotic character, or at least at the center of a lot of chaos.

Having someone like Maddie, who within this scene... feels like she's being dragged into this incredibly dangerous world that ruin Alamoan habit. And then you realize Maddie doesn't really get dragged anywhere. No, Roo's like, didn't you have to be somewhere, Maddie? And Maddie's like, nope, I'm good. I got a milkshake to drink. So is Maddie driving the Mercedes here? To a certain degree, yes.

But there is obviously a sense of doom in the way that it's shot when she enters the silver slipper. She doesn't know everything she's getting into. certainly. She thinks she understands. She's like, I'm walking in with my eyes open. This is a sex industry and I understand the sex industry. And she's like, oops, I'm in the feeding corpses to pigs industry. I didn't know.

I didn't know. Turns out they overlap. Uh-oh. What did you make of, oh, we both really enjoyed Zendaya's performance when Rue is nervously laughing when Alamone shows up. She's just a one-of-one, like, anxiety bomb actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, then also watch the drama for, like, increasing.

effective versions of that. Alexa Demi is an incredibly tiny woman and Adewale is like a large man. He's not 5-9. I'll tell you that much right now. But the way that they shot him sort of like the heaviness of his boots as he walked in, the way that he's looming over them. We get, sort of feels

like a callback to that shot of Kitty and like the silhouette of his hat and Kitty's legs that you called out last week as he's just sort of like looming over them. Maddie's taken in like all of the accessories, which is that Alexa Demi said in the behind the scenes. But I think this, like, Maddie is so impressive, and I believe in her so much. And yet, watching this

tiny woman and this massive, and we know that he is very dangerous. Incredibly so. Man, like, watching them crammed together, like, in the Mercedes even, is just like, and then, like, the two of them almost like, I don't know, Wizard of Oz-esque, like, going into the silver slipper here, you know, I'm nervous for your girl. I am nervous. but I'm less so as just a general TV watcher because this illuminated something that's just true about Euphoria and the reason why I feel like Maddie is the best character on the show she works with everybody.

Like any actor, any character on Euphoria, this is the most I've been interested in Alamo since he's been on the show, is seeing him with Maddie. And I think Maddie's stuff with Rue is often electric. Maddie stuff with Lexi can be really fun. Maddie's stuff with Cassie's obviously been her, Cassie's best moments. Even with Jules at the wedding. Completely.

Good stuff, yeah. And so it's like getting it to see different sides of Alamo is what's exciting to me about that prospect. And I think what makes Maddie effective is like she's not, it's not that she's a plain character that lets other characters pop, but like she's just operating on a frequency that I think brings the best out of these other constructions of who these other people are. And so if we get to see other sides of Alamo,

even if there are very dangerous sides, that's a show I'm interested in watching. It's a show I'm interested and scared to watch. Well, yeah. Well, yeah. Anything you want to say about the way the sort of meat market moment was shot, the girls, like where we see like first, the legs and then the breasts and then finally the faces as Maddie is sort of prowling around.

Sizing everybody up. I mean, I enjoy kind of the articulation. It's almost like a test from Alamo, right, of like a matter of taste a little bit. Like who will you pick out of this lineup? Like his satisfaction when she picks the two right girls. But you're right. It's gross. It's weird.

It is like understandably like reducing all of these women into like what are their most marketable characteristics. And I love the inversion of Maddie's story as the show lays out of, you know, she's been taking people like Cassie and turning them into like OnlyFans models. But the idea of kind of reverse engineering based on the willingness of how far someone is willing to go

and that person's starting out being a stripper or a sex worker, all of a sudden the world is very wide. I think it's also interesting to think about Cassie at this juncture where she has this L.A. Knight's opportunity, which is like, yes, a small role. Lexi's pissed. I don't blame Lexi for being. pissed, but like...

Brutal turn for Lexi. Really tough. But like, Cassie's got a small role that I could definitely see a Cassie turning into something bigger, you know? Job applicant? I mean, that's a juicy part. So there's that. And then there's whatever Maddie's about to drag her into the silver slipper.

Like, here's the fork in the road. And, you know, like, where does her career go from here? What is her future? What choice does she make? Or does she have a choice because she signed that contract? with Maddie. I don't know. It's a great question. I think one of the more successful aspects of the season overall is like it's a very Los Angeles show all of a sudden, whereas I would say Hollywood. Hollywood specifically. But you know, the earlier seasons were kind of like suburbs.

Yes, it's California, but it could kind of be a lot of different places. Yeah, anywhere in California. But where we're getting to with Maddie and Cassie in particular, these are like two very particular kinds of Hollywood people, right? In Maddie, someone who's like willing to completely fake it until they make it. I really, when Maddie, to Lexi is like, do you want to make an enemy of me on the Warner Brothers lot? I was like, I know that person. I've talked to that person. I know that person also. I don't.

I don't want to make an enemy of them. But it's like Maddie is faking it in every possible respect, pumping herself up, pretending she's something she's not even if she's cleaning up like chihuahua shit in her job time. And then Cassie has someone who's like willing to do anything for a slice of attention. And so this is taking the Cassie idea, I think, to an even deeper and potentially dark or extreme in terms of. who Maddie's going to be working with now. Something I think that's interesting is, I mean, I think the biggest laugh of the episode, of course, is when Cassie's like, you're my best friend. And Maddie's like, really?

Both maybe the funniest and saddest moment in Euphoria history. And that's really saying something. But what I liked about it is we heard Cassie's, like, whine that throughout season two. Yeah. Maddie's my best friend. Like, that's 80% of Cassie's lines in season two. So she's hitting it pretty hard in the season two. this episode to like Nate to Brandon.

For Maddie just to be like, really? What are you talking about? It's so good. I thought it was really really. All of their exchanges are so good. Like when Cassie's talking about like, what have I lied to you about recently? Recently.

Again, I just thought, I thought both of them were kind of on fire in this episode. And the deployment, you know, the much promised. Please. Please let it continue. Yeah. Maddie just being completely unbothered

and getting on the fake phone call is just like incredibly good. But I mean, maybe that's her equanimity. She's sort of like, let's roll on to the next thing. I have found my piece. I mean, it just feels so of that character too for Cassie to not even beat around the bush, but like beat around the garden that contains the bush. She's like so scared to step on anyone's toe. She's circling the perimeter of the room, literally. When she signs that contract, when Cassie signs that contract and holds it up for Maddie, and she breathes just Dylan, like his name.

I thought that was really, really funny. Shout at Homer Gear. I hope that your dad enjoyed being in this episode of Euphoria. I also thought that was a great bit of kind of like plot magic as far as, you know, you're right that you're kind of meant to be angry about the way Brandon is presenting Maddie and all these different things. But this idea that Maddie on some level kind of like knows Cassie well enough to know the exact thing that she wants, even if she doesn't have it yet, it's like this is a thing

I can dangle in front of her. That's kind of all you need. Yeah. And it's like Brandon is like, talking in generalities and like go stand on this balcony and like isn't this lifestyle great. And Mattie's like, you're just like very real guy. And you can get his attention. I'm going to put you in a room with him as job applicants.

And who knows what happens from that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything else you want to say about Nate? Oh, okay. So something I learned about this house is that they were told they could not. I was asking like, did you pick that house because you thought blood would look especially good on that carpet? And they were told they couldn't. the only thing they couldn't mess up was the carpet.

So they had to source matching carpet swatches to, like, put Jacob Allorty on so he could burble blood and not ruin the original yellow shag that was in the house. It did look like it had been completely cleaned out somehow. Yeah, yeah. I assume that's where some of the $30,000. And he also has got to send Nate's, I love you, I love you, I love you, send me that money. Like anything, I mean, his, his, uh, yeah, I guess their housekeeper no longer works there because the entire place is an absolute pig stye.

Anything else you want to say about Nate Jacobs? I at least prefer this version of Nate to the early season version of Nate. He at least seems like an asshole, which is correct. Yeah, absolutely. And a loser. Yes. Like Nate. A bread loser.

A Nate who peaked in high school. Yes. And is now just like a real loser who, I don't know, gender norm, cannot provide for his family or whatever, but it's just sort of like sitting around, not even cleaning the house, not even doing anything. It's like, go whore yourself out. Straight up, bipping out his wife. Yeah.

Yeah, like I think the turn from now that there are no illusions out there, they've all been shattered. Everyone knows he's a broke boy. Everyone knows he's a fraud. It's like, I guess now just like go ahead and make those videos. You know, like let's just get that money. Create a story with Brandon. Yes. Yeah.

Just a little tension, a little flirtation, the suggestion of a relationship online. But then he's also like so lost in like drinks and day dancing in his living room. room that he like forgets to send the money for the payment and thus loses his finger anyway? No, can I just tell you that Nate getting completely bankrolled by Cassie, working her ass off literally like in this industry and him not making the payment even still? Chef's kiss you for you. That's very funny stuff.

The brittiest loser that ever was. The henchmen coming through the sliding door and him running upstairs. The hench walking all the way across the golf course to get there. But just Nate running upstairs and like hiding in a bathroom? Oh, like a dumb blonde in a horror movie? Perhaps. Yeah. But also, you know what?

If that's how you hide, I'm just going to say it. You deserve to get your finger cut off. You didn't even try. All right. Here's the last thing else. Is there anything else you want to say before I wrap us up? About Nate in particular? No, about you for it.

Where do you want to go? How do you want to wrap this up? Just some information I learned about the finale. No, no spoilers. Just some information I learned. How is it going to be information about the movie? finale that's not a spoiler? They just turned it in last Monday.

Okay. That's interesting information. That's info. It's 93 minutes long. Sure is. That Sunday is going to be great for us. That's interesting info. They gave me like a tone note for the ending, which I don't think is a spoiler.

Okay. Would you like me to share it with you? I'm interested in a tone note. Okay. They said it's a hopeful ending, but not for everyone. Euphoria. Yeah. I would expect nothing less, frankly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, okay, thinking about that, hopeful ending but not for everyone. Who do you, Maddie's number one boy? Yeah. Most want to have or think we'll have a hopeful ending to this series. I mean, Kitty, obviously. She's going to ride off into the sunset. Nothing bad is going to happen to Kitty.

She's going to be fine. They all seem kind of screwed in their own ways, don't they? Lexi. You're doing fine. I hope Lexi, but I think Lexi's just going to be still stuck in the purgatory that is her life in which she works really hard for something and her sister swoops in with a low-cut shirt and gets a better version of it. I can't believe

that she learned nothing from the plethora of Dix moment with jewels where she like once again brought in someone for real life into her job. You just can't do it. It's tough. It's tough. Lexi, I'm hopeful. I mean, the tone of the season and the religious through lines would tell us. Maybe it ends with Lexi having sex with someone she's really excited to have sex for with.

Dylan Reed? Dylan. I don't know. He doesn't seem great. She hooks up with Dylan Reed and Cassie does not. Finally gets her win. That would be interesting.

I'd be game for that. Yeah, I don't, I'm trying to parse like if any of the religious undertones and themes of this season would tell us, like, who is graced by God, you know? Who is the Rue with the apple on the... Curse. I mean, but also she survives everything.

Yeah. Including... I mean, we definitely think she's surviving this episode. There's no question, right? Like, zero question. They're coily in the preview for next week. you do not see Rue. Very clever.

You do see the two DEA guys like rolling up to the spot where she was buried alive. So like I think she's going to be fine. I know she's gonna be like in Zendaya. They did not kill her off screen. Off screen. Did not happen.

So why are we ending an episode this way? I don't know. It's a great question. I was a little irritated by that. Anything else you want to say? I want to circle back. You mentioned the Julia Roberts' brief appearance in this episode via the TV.

Pretty woman, baby. I mean, Pretty Woman. Incredible moment, incredible scene. Is this relationship goals or relationship hell? What we see from Fay and I'm going to be straight up, a Nazi dude just sitting around lounging, watching Pretty Woman. I mean, can you pull the redeeming quality of that enough? Can you rewind that? Can we remove Nazi from the equation?

I don't know that you can. He's got a Confederate flag phone case. I think her, I think Faye being like, please don't answer the phone during this scene from Pretty Woman. It's my favorite is the best. part. Yeah. Relationship goals. Nazi.

Yep. Confederate flag phone case. Who does, in fact, answer the phone during that scene anyway. That's not great. Yeah. It's not great. But they seem to be in love. They sure do.

And I don't think it's going to go well for them. So you don't think they're going to have the happy ending. I'm sorry, the hopeful ending. Guys. Slightly different. Slightly different. No, I don't think it's going to go well for Faye to have been involved in the robbery of Alamo's.

nightclub. But the Nazi guy? Maybe this is a show where the Nazis win. I don't know. It's the anti-glorious bastards. We're crossing our fingers to the Nazis. Please pull that for social. We love to have it on the gram. All right, anything else you want to say? Let's get out of here, Joe. Okay, happy

Mother's Day. Thank you to Jamie, who is here with us. And thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Joe. Thank you to HBO for this unique Sunday night experience. And we'll be back with perhaps a teen show, back. Probably another Widows Bay check in later this month. Absolutely. And definitely more euphoria. Bank on it. Maybe 50-foot woman, like, included? Do you think we'll get a return?

The return of the 50-foot woman? I don't know. I don't know how the season ends. Maybe that's hopeful for somebody. You're like, they didn't spend a year building that model. Certainly this businessman is hoping for it, you know? Like, he had big dreams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, here's hoping for Frank. We'll see you soon. Bye.