The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Fargo’ Season 5, Episode 5 Recap

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

Jo and Rob are back to break down the fifth episode of ‘Fargo’ Season 5. They discuss a handful of scene-stealing moments from Jennifer Jason Leigh, Roy Tillman’s role as the show’s true villain, and how many of the characters are constructing their own realities. Along the way, they unpack ‘The Wizard of Oz’ theory and all of the ways the series is mirroring the classic American fairy tale. Later, they talk about the unlikely similarities between Dot and Munch. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Danny Hyfitz from the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. For all your fantasy football needs, check out the Ringer Fantasy Football Show with me, Craig Horlebeck and Danny Kelly. That's the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in the Prestige TV podcast, I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today, sorry I bid your guys his fingers off. It's Rob Mahoney. How you doing, Rob? I just appreciate that you, Joe, unlike Dodd, you don't go for the nostrils like she does.

Just makes a beeline for the. those things anytime they're available. It's tough. It's tough. Well, what did Tiger do? That's what you have to ask yourself. We're here to cover Bargo season 5, episode five. We're at the halfway mark Tiger, written by Noah Holly, directed by Dana Gonzalez. First and foremost, program reminders really quickly. Elsewhere in the speed, Sean, Fantasy and I are somewhat sporadically covering the curse, one might say. We did, we did an episode last week. We'll be back in the new year to do,

I think, two more before the season is out. and then Amanda Dobbins and I are covering part two, the final season of The Crown. And we're going to do a couple episodes on that. So if you were waiting for the Will and Kate stuff, here it is. It's the Crown. It's very weird. It's taking place now-ish, not now. In the past.

But anyway, Will and Gator here. So that's happening on the Prestige TV podcast feed. Spoiler warning today up through episode 5 of Fargo, I suppose. and everything the Coens have ever made in their filmography. And then, most importantly, Rob Mahoney, if folks want to send us some emails, we've got some great emails this week. What email address should they use to contact us?

I would highly recommend you send your emails to John Ham's nipple rings at gmail.com. And in fact, I just noticed that in the promotional images for this season, you know, you have the kind of like glass in the... What are those little decorative children called? Do you know what I'm talking about? Like a, oh, a Hummel figure? Exactly, a Hummel figurine. The Hummel

figurine promotional art for Fargo Season 5. There's, you know, little figures representing all the core characters, including a John Hamm figurine that is pulling open his shirt to reveal the nipple ring. No. I mean, I know, I had seen the image and I just had not

paid enough attention that there were nipple rings. You got to zoom in. You got to zoom in on all the nipples, on all the Hummel figurines to really get the full scoop on this show. I mean, that's why, Rob, that's why we ask you here. We do the work. You count the Imagine Dragons posters. You zoom in on the nipple rings.

You're here for it. That's John Ham's Nipple Rings, No H and John, 2M's and Ham. John Ham's Napsnepleink. The Gmail.com. As you mentioned, episode five, Tigers, written by Noah Hawley, directed by Dana Gonzalez. Dana Gonzalez, long-time Noah Hawley collaborator, cinematographer on a lot of Fargo.

a lot of Legion and has directed four episodes this season including the finale. I love it when a cinematographer sort of bumps up into the director's chair. Oh, yeah. That's a really fun leap. So we can, you know,

if there are any visuals that particularly struck you this episode, that might be why. Really important update for you, Rob. Yes. The staple CBS series of Blue Bloods is wrapping up. And my first thought was, does Wayne know?

How does Wayne feel about this? How is this going to invite Wayne's life? What are we doing the Blue Bloods Pod? You know, the finale pod for the prestige fee. That's got to be Prestige TV, right? I think as soon as either of us can get through Blue Bloods, say Blue Bloods without stumbling over it. It's very difficult.

That's when the pod will launch. Some major things we're talking about today. Protection, constructive realities, debts yet again, Again. And then the queen herself, Jennifer Jason Lee, is sort of like its own overarch. This is a very J.JL episode of television. Oh, yeah.

The zookeeper in all her splendor. Ooh, the zookeeper. Schwartsey is here. Jason Schwarzen is here. No one calls him Schwarzy. I just decided to in this very moment. Why not? Doing a little narration is a fine Fargo tradition.

Billy Bob Thornton, who was a season one cast member, did voiceover for season three, Martin Freeman is in Season 1 cast number, did voiceover season 2, and Schwarzen was in season for the much maligned season, but here he is talking to us about tigers. Some Coen Brothers references we missed that our listeners wanted to point out for us, Rob. And almost all of them did it in a very nice way. That's very Minnesota of them. Yeah, Minnesota nice.

Peter St. Mayer's character in Fargo, the film, wants pancakes for every meal. So we have not yet pointed out the connection between that character who is after pancakes and the thread of Biskwick and pancakes through this season of Fargo. Apparently, Tillman's monologue in the church was very close to Tommy Jones' monologue in No Country for Old Men, and then takes like a sharp veer off into another direction. I think it was actually his monologue, kind of his introductory, monologue over the

footage of him, you know, writing triumphantly through the hills on his horse, leading into his encounter with what's his name, our domestic abuser husband, may he rest in peace. I believe it was that monologue that mirrors no country.

Perfect. And then last but not least, this is not necessarily like a reference we missed, but listener Mohammed wrote in to talk about the federal agents that storyline that wasn't like wholly working for us so far. He wrote, I agree the FBI plot is a different tone, but it reminds me of burn after reading. We all think spies and the government are sophisticated in advance, but they're incompetent, stupid and corrupt.

We see the themes of that movie daily with everything going on in our own government. I'm not sure the tone works for the show, even if I like the potential reference. So like I will admit that Burn After Reading is not a Cohen film that I like revisit often. Yeah, not for me either. But I could kind of see that that might be sort of what they're trying to hold in here. Oh, yeah. They're definitely bumbling characters, and that's the point. I think it's less the bumbling that I was bumping against and more just some of the writing,

some of the delivery, some of the tonality of those scenes that, I don't know, just didn't quite fit. But we'll see how they kind of fit into the shape of the show going forward because, look, we got a lot of Mr. and Mrs. Joe Queen popping up in episode five here. It's true. They're in the hospital. The gang's all here in the hospital. Last one at least, sort of an email corner is we got a few Minnesota nice emails again this week. And I had my friend Amy, who is from Minnesota, sort of pick out her favorite one, the one that she feels like really truly represents.

So this one is from Nick, who says, I think the true definition of Minnesota nice is being pleasant to strangers, i.e. holding up the line at the grocery store checkout because you're making small talk with the cashier who you don't know. but I think the more fun version is when it's passive aggressive. The best example for this I can think of is a mother who brought something store bought to the PTA bake sale. It will be greeted with, oh, thanks, this looks great. Look, Shelly brought a pie for Cub. Doesn't it look good? Anyone who looks at it and interacts with that pie will not let the poor woman who bought it

forget that it's store bought and not homemade. Some people are a little too busy to set aside some time to make something, but it's the thought that counts. So that's from Nick. And my friend Amy just lost her mind about that one. She's like, oh, yes, oh, yes, oh, yes. You never bring, she was going through the various levels where you can bring storebot. She's like, like, if you're on chip duty, sure, of course.

Like, there are various, like, and she, I don't know, she had this whole, like, she rattled off this whole, what the categories are for a potluck. She's like, you know, A through F this. And I was like, I didn't. I don't know about the categories for a potluck, but I'm delighted to learn. Well, Potluck is kind of its own category. Bake sale very much another. Like, you can't bring a store-bought pie to a bake sale. That would be frowned upon strongly.

And if you did, I would recommend you take it out of the container. Oh, yeah. Put it on a plate. People are still going to know from the shape, but, yeah, you can't be calling yourself out. With a plastic lid with like the price tag sticker still on it, you know what I mean? No. You got to transfer it into your own pie plate. That's a fair point.

Fair point. I don't know. Somebody baked it for the bake sale, even if it wasn't you. Isn't it the thought that counts? Okay. It just feels like more of a commercial operation if we're just buying wholesale pies, cutting them up and upselling them for, even for the sake of charity or fundraising.

For the kids, Rob. Come on. All right. Episode 5, we're going to start with Jennifer Jason. Because she has two and a half banger scenes. Maybe three bangers, if you prefer, but at least two and a half bangers. let's start with this lunch scene

in which she may not eat any cob salad but she devours the scenery with these two bankers and I love how she starts it with like, you get the headliner. Anyway, there have been in our emails, in my mentions on Twitter, on the Reddit boards, all these people saying Jennifer Jason Lee is not their favorite part of the season of Fargo.

In fact, the way in which her, you know, we've identified this sort of like hud sucker proxy exaggerated way of talking tonality, uh, is out of step with everyone else in the show and that that isn't working for some people. I'm really hoping that this episode resolve some of those questions for some people because I just think she's extraordinary always, but especially in this episode. What did you think of this, uh, lunch scene between the two bankers and Lorraine? I thought it was exceptional.

Probably the highlight of the episode for me, this scene in particular. but to circle back to the cobb salad for a moment. Yeah. Who orders a cobb salad with no cheese? Like what are we even doing if you're not eating blue cheese on your cob salad? Okay, but what if we don't like blue cheese, Rob? What if we... I don't know, order a BLT.

Like, what are you getting a cobb salad for at that point? Could I get a cobb salad with another kind of cheese in it? If I just want the, like, egg and ham and whatever situation. I don't see why personally, but I guess if you need to... If that's how you need to get through the day, I bless your salad. I just think that the fact that she leaves before the salad even shows up shows that even she's not committed to it. Even she's not committed to eating this monstrosity that she's ordered. I don't know.

She left before the, you know, the bottle of the 92 wine also got there. So, you know, it's a, I think that was just like a flex of like, I will pick up the tab, but I don't even need to take a sip of the wine. You enjoy the wine boys. is some key killer lines. The last time you negotiated with a woman was over the price of Tijuana Woblo job, right? Just wonderful stuff. And how much the extras cost?

How much the perks cost on that Tijuana blow job? So I hope their negotiations weren't well. She's six governors on Speed Dial, her own personal liaison of the FTC. Are we friends yet? And then everyone loves a lender, not so much the repo man, right? So Lorraine, for all of her talk about how her role as a debt collector is this sort of necessary and, you know, whatever other lines she fed to Forbes, really she's looking to move out of the debt business into the loan business so that she can sort of polish up her reputation in addition to still pulling in gobs of money.

what is this trying to say about I don't know her this season's analysis of types of power in America and her sort of role in all of that for you Rob well I thought it was a great lead in into her next showdown

with Tillman in her own home after this so we get these kind of two scenes in which I mean Lorraine is just like about done with the concept of men coming in and telling her what to do at this point and what I love about this one in particular is she gives the impression of a woman who has seen this movie before. She has been in this steakhouse, if not this steakhouse.

She knows the lines. She knows the tells. She knows the like, oh, we really thought Danish Graves was going to be here. And we get to chat with him, mentions. And she's over all that to the point where one mention of the word lady, and we're bringing the price down by $10 million. And based on the tone of, I guess, our nameless banker, our friend with the, what's like a horseshoe muster?

I can't blame her for dropping the price. There's something dripping from that lady. You could definitely tell some sauce on it. I think that I loved how quickly she clocked it, right? She gave the benefit of doubt like the first interaction of like Where's Graves? And then she's like, all right, we're not doing this. Is Lady the parallel of, I feel like pal and buddy can be this in like extremely macho spaces? A pal and a buddy can really raise some hackles?

I think it's closer to leaving any sort of like racial implications out of this word, boy. Sure. I think it feels more like, lady feels more like boy to me than... It's a power dynamic kind of suggestion. Yeah. It's just so like, here's you, here's me sort of thing. All right, let's go into the king versus the queen, right? This is, you mentioned, Roy, comes into her home.

I have so many laughs in this episode genuinely. I think it's hilarious, but I think Roy identifying himself as a libertarian was like, if he's never said it out loud yet, it just dripped off of everything that happens on the Tillman, you know, homestead.

And so I was just like, yes, of course you are. But yeah, here we get Roy coming in here, talking again about the debt that is owed, what is owed to him, the property that is owed to him, That is Nadine, he says, Dorothy, Lorraine says. And this is such an interesting shift for Lorraine in this season, I think, because what's interesting about where our allegiances lie with various characters, to me, sort of all centers around how they react to Roy or how they react to Dorothy. And so the idea that, like, monk, like, hates the Tillmans, or at least not hates, but is exacting revenge on them to a certain degree, makes me not view him as the bad guy.

I was like, he's just an instrument. He's not the bad guy. Because Roy is the bad guy. Like, that's sort of where I'm ranking everything. So I feel like Roy is the worst problem in this season. of television as someone who abuses his power, you know, as a duly elected protector, someone who abuses his power as the protector of his family, all this sort of stuff. Like, Roy is my public enemy number one.

So if you're against Roy, I'm kind of with you. And so Lorraine is against Roy. And as much as she's like, I'd love to put Dorothy in a box mark return to sender, she's protective of her son and therefore sort of lumps Dorothy under that protection and then all of a sudden I'm like, I mean, do I kind of like Lorraine in this moment? I kind of do.

I mean, how do you feel about that? She's definitely winning us over in that way. And I don't know about you, but I just did not really expect for Lorraine to stick up for Dot in this particular way, which makes it interesting. But it tracks with a power broker who doesn't want to be told

how to run her family, how to conduct her business. And if anything, it's kind of another parallel with the previous scene where Lorraine has this line to the bankers about whether they hate women or love money more. And here it's like, does Lorraine hate Dot or hate being told what to do more? And clearly she hates being told what to do more.

And so that's why I love this showdown in which Tillman feels kind of small. Like he's coming to her with hat in hand, projecting, again, goodness and virtue and like, this is what I am owed and like trying to make things right, he keeps saying. But like Lorraine is clearly the one with the power here. She's clearly the one kicking him out of her house. And he can make all the veiled threats he wants.

And I'm sure we're going to get inevitable showdowns between them in future episodes. But right now it's hard to take away from this scene that Tillman has any kind of upper hand. It feels like he's playing catch up. And Lorraine is kind of sitting on top of the hill right now. Well, because he's on her turf. Yes. In her house, right? They're in different states entirely.

And it's sort of like, we know that Roy Tillman's power is big enough that someone on the federal level is like leave him alone, right? So it's that big. But does it really spill over into the halls of moneyed power in Minnesota from North Dakota is the question here? And, like, the idea that, I mean, her calling, she's her saying you want freedom with no responsibility. She's like, you're a baby. You're fighting for her right to be a baby. Incredible. Dripping with disdain the way she says you're one of those constitutional shares.

Yeah. That's an important thing where it's like she knows who he is already. Like she's heard of him. She's familiar with his work. And this scene in a lot of ways is about Tillman understanding who Lorraine is for the first time. Yes. Because he clearly is a little out of his depth. I read this great article that was posted on the Fargo Reddit about from NPR called Inside the Constitutional Sheriff Movement, something I was kind of not very aware of.

But a great discussion about this movement and this reality that in many circumstances in the U.S., we cannot name our sheriffs. I certainly couldn't. And that in many instances in the U.S., the sheriff, the duly appointed sheriff, leans far more to the right than their constituency. And so it's sort of one of those unobserved power roles in the country where we don't pay enough attention to who we're putting in that role. And certainly when it comes to like elections or a number of other things, this is someone who could have a lot of influence

as someone that people don't pay enough attention to but could do a lot of, I mean, I would say damage, but the NPR article is far more, you know, even keeled about it. It's just sort of like, hey, this is a thing. You know, we called a bunch of sheriffs and we pulled them

and we asked them who was responsible January 6th. You might be interested in their response. So, yeah, it was a really fascinating article. Anything else you want to say? about this. A missing person is presumed dead. Technically, Dorothy is my son's property now. I mean, not great, but I'm just sort of like,

I don't, I'm just on Lorraine's side in the scene, and I just enjoyed that experience, personally. I don't know how you couldn't be on Lorraine's side in this particular scene. Whether it's, you know, the enemy of your enemy being your friend kind of narrative situation in this case, or however you want to look at it, Tillman is just not a very sympathetic figure.

And we do get in this scene the beginning, beginnings of him telling the story of what happened between him and him and dot then nadine and i love the play on those ideas because we hear dot's side of the story a little later at least little images of it glimpses of it bits of it and i think that the slow unrolling of that story is working really well for fargo from a narrative standpoint like i almost don't want to know everything that happened i don't want a full-on flashback to what happened i just want to hear them tell it and i want to hear them internalize it and explain how they got here. That's almost more interesting at this point.

Well, something is really interesting to me, and we'll talk about this a little bit more later when we get through when we get into sort of one of the major theories around the show that is fascinated me this week. But reading, again, reading like the Reddit boards or my Twitter mentions or whatever, actually more the Reddit boards than people know better than to tweet this at me is a lot of lack of sympathy for Dorothy. A lot of people are saying they don't like this. character. They don't like that she's lying to, let's say, Wayne and Scotty and, like, that she needs to be

more honest about what's going on because she's put them in danger by lying to them. And on the one hand, that is, like, empirically undeniably true. But on the other hand, when it comes to, like, empathizing with characters, we have to understand. And I guess the show is sort of slow rolling this. But, like, if you read between the lines, we talked about this when, like, Tillman's current wife flinched away from him in bed, like, what she's running away from, what she's escaping. is to her, and we don't know the full extent of it, so horrifying that she has plunged herself so deeply in this world, this other world that she has created for herself,

this other identity that she has created for herself. And that is as important for her to cling to. And so on the one hand, I can see why that is not giving your family all the information they might need to go forward here. Sure. In terms of empathy for someone who is trying to, to escape what I presume to be a monster, I have a lot of empathy for the layers of denial

that she has sort of buried herself underneath. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that strikes me as the kind of thing that makes sense from an everyday relationship perspective, like being honest with the people in your life makes sense. But seems a little oblivious to, like, the psychology of a victim with a, like, a survival response in a difficult situation.

And her being plunged back into this world and seeing some of these people again. Now, she hasn't seen Tillman himself again in person yet, but seeing some of the people in his orbit, seeing the kidnappers show up. A little gator. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense that she would have a fight or flight

kind of response to something like that. She has not seen Roy, but Scotty has seen Roy. Yes. And I had a very visceral reaction to that. I was like really upset. I was like, don't talk to her. Don't look at her. Don't give her any tips on her hockey.

I don't want you anywhere near her. Stay away. Um, any thoughts about this feeding or starving me is Roy Scottie's father, uh, question that we were talking about last week. I feel like the timeline is kind of subtly leading us there a little bit maybe. Yeah. And maybe that's best discussed later when we get to kind of dot side of the story, um, in terms of her, her escape from Tomey in the first place. So let's circle back to that, I think. And then last on the, on the sort of three Lorraine scenes, the last is Lorraine talking to Indira about,

once again about debt and this idea of like how did you get where you are? What did you make of this interaction? I mean, further explanation of an examination of like not just a matter of what is owed in this show, but what it means to owe and what it does to you to be in that position. I was kind of wondering if Endira's debt was going to be like a thematic connection that ties these ideas together for us in a more literalized way. Or if there's eventually going to be like a leverage point. between Indira and Lorraine is someone who could obviously, assuming that she has control of

Indira's debt or could acquire it, is someone who could relieve it. And so having a police officer indebted, I think naturally puts your antenna up as a viewer to think like, okay, what, how could this character be squeezed? How could they be manipulated? How could they be changed? And to this point, Indira has been very principled, very by the book, as we've seen in Fargo and Cohen Properties past, that can change very quickly. Those things can turn on a dime. So I'm very anxious to see how that evolves. But I love this monologue from Lorraine in terms of the zoo and zookeeper dynamic. Again, drawing a line between her kind of power and police power where even if you are a police officer, even if you have a badge, you're still just a lemming or a lemur, as she puts it. You're still in

the cage with everybody else if you're a part of this kind of system. And to have her identify as a zookeeper in the episode, Tiger, where Dot is identified. as the tiger is, you know, again, something to think about. And something, too, where, like, we talked about the narration, the Jason Schwartzman narration of Dot as the tiger. Like, it's very nature documentary, obviously, on purpose in terms of that styling. You know, it's very much of, like, the Attenborough School of, you know, that kind of unpacking, which is all about, like, wild animals, right?

It's Dodd as a creature in freedom who knows how to stay loose, who knows how to protect her mate and her cubs who knows how to not be in the cage and what she's willing to do to not be in the cage. And so to kind of parallel those ideas of Endira being stuck along with every other person in debt in the country for whatever reason versus Dodd who is willing to do literally whatever it takes to not be behind bars.

That was certainly notable just in the structure and the styling of this episode. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about zeppbound, terse appetite, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA.

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Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. I want to talk about this idea of constructive reality. We've talked about this a little bit here and there last week, as we mentioned, the episode is titled In Solubilia, and Danish Graves had that great line of, we have our own reality. Well, I think maybe one of the best lines the whole season.

We got this email from Mike a couple weeks ago, and I just wanted to bring it back because Mike is sort of our listener is one of the first person who put this idea in my head, but he's talking about the various constructed realities. Dots is the most obvious, he says, as she has consciously constructed a new identity, family reality in Minnesota. If she stays in the light, the week and it will stay in the dark, etc. Roy is in a justified slash Yellowstone reality where he is the God King, a world with good and evil, demons on the devil. Jeffrey Jason Lee is in the Hudson Hudducker proxy, and Adira's husband is an aspiring golfer in his own mind.

So, like, all of that's kind of interesting, but I thought there's some great Sam Spruill interviews that have come out the last couple weeks that I wanted to sort of dip in and out of in this episode. Yeah. And he brings up this idea of Ola Monk as this dark mirror for the Tillman. Sam Sproles said, he reflects the true nature of their crimes and they can't quite get rid of this reflection and they can smash the mirror as many times as they want, but I'm still there in some form, in some kind of twisted form. And I think that there's a media and a kind of living in the presence of those two characters that my character reminds them of the truth of their lives and the truth of their crimes. This idea of like the Tillmans can dress themselves up in the flag and their hats and their like trappings of law enforcement. You know, like thinking about what Roy does at the end of episode four when he kills a man and frames him for this other crimes in order to get the fed's office back, etc. But can surely construct a reality in his own mind that he has played the hero in that scene.

He has saved a woman from her abusive husband. And he literally wrote off into the sunset, probably thinking himself the hero. So, like, he can justify, to use a term from a show we love, he can justify a lot of his actions. But when this creature, this timeless creature that is almost like shows up and is like, actually, you hired me, this is who you are actually. I'm not going to eat your sin and make it go away. You have to look at it. And that's why he's so frustrating and terrifying to them because he's this unflinching mirror of the reality of the ugliness of their violence and crimes,

like stuff like that. And so that idea of like forced shattering of a constructive reality and Dot is going through the same thing, a forced shattering of this, you know, happy home. that she has tried, you know, Bisquick and all has tried to create for herself. I just thought that was a really interesting insight from Sam Spruill on his character.

Yeah. If the first five episodes, it may be kind of segmented that way where the first five are about the constructed reality and the back five are about, you know, gradually character by character, these things are being shattered. And I think we see Dodd in this episode really tell the truth for the first time

at the end of it to Endira. Like she's finally coming clean and telling another human being about what is actually going on. So hers is starting to unravel, hers is starting to break. Something that popped into my head as you were talking about that

was I was trying to figure out why the Little Mermaid, like why at the end of this episode Scotty is watching The Little Mermaid, why that's the only DVD that's available in that house to watch. Look, gadgets and gizmos are plenty in that household.

And the old said household, clearly, but they cannot afford a Blu-ray player. Very tough times. Dead will do crazy things to people. But that's a movie. about and a story about a constructed reality, about an artificial wall separating

a couple people or a culture of people from what's outside it. So I wonder if maybe they were hinting at some of that there too and what happens when the wall comes down? You could not have handed me a better segue into the next big thing we're going to talk about Little Mermaid. In the Little Mermaid, we're not going to talk about the Little Mermaid, but it's a great transition

because Little Mermaid is about this like a girl wanting more, right? I want more. It's like classic I want song, part of your world. This brings us to the Wizard of Oz theory. Have you read anything about the Wiz Fargo, and the Wizard of Oz theory? Welcome.

Catch me up, please. Welcome, welcome. All right. So, Wizard of Oz is our, I've heard of it. Most quintessentially and often called the first American fairy tale. So this idea, as Noah Hawley is sort of examining the corners of Americana and what works and what doesn't and where we draw these sort of constructive realities from, America's

first fairy tale is a, you know, blurring of reality and dreams is an interesting place to go. Kansas, of course, the key setting, or one of two key settings for the Wizard of Oz. I did Google this just to make sure I wasn't messing this up. Kansas is in the Midwest. I was like, is it a plain state? Am I going to anger some people from Kansas? Federally recognize as the Midwest. So if we are examining the Midwest. There's a federal designation for this? Yeah, there's a federal designation. I looked at them. Incredible. It is on the list. So, you know, send your angry emails to Congress if you want to. It's Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin is a federally designated Midwest.

Missouri. Missouri and the Midwest. I think people are going to be upset about this. But, look, again, don't take it up with us. This kind of blew my mind. And I think it's a great vehicle for us to talk about all the things we want to talk about in this episode. This episode is called Tiger. Yep. We've got lions.

We've got tigers and I guess we've got which bears. Oh my. Are here. Let's start with Dot, aka Dorothy and her fixation on home. There's no place like it. This week she gets involuntarily committed. Some of this, like the bare bones of this is out there. A lot of this, I put a lot of flesh on the bone because, so I'm not just

like reading verbatim something I read somewhere, I promise. Involuntary committed aspect this week, this is not in the books, but it reminded me of the haunting classic 1985's Return to Oz in which Dorothy is involuntarily committed because Antiam and Uncle Henry think she has lost her marbles. Can I just say on that front, I'm very glad that Dodd made her escape quickly in this episode because, to be totally honest, that is a trope that really gets under my skin. the wrongfully institutionalized. I can't even put a name on why,

but something about every time it comes up, you know, Shutter Island plays with that a little bit, The Invisible Man, the 2020 Invisible Man, I thought did a really good job with it with Elizabeth Moss, and something near and dear to both of us, Joe, the classic Buffy episode Normal again, in which she's kind of imagining that she's being put into hospital,

imagining that she's being trapped in that way, which is almost worse, I don't know. But yeah, there's something about that device that really gets to me. So I'm glad she escaped quickly because I don't know that I would want a whole episode of that. So whether or not through the lens of Dorothy Gale or however you prefer to think about it,

what do you want to say about dot in the hospital, dots escape? This is a good little umbrella for us to talk about some of the dot points that you want to hit in this week's episode. I mean, for one, I'm very pleased to report that angry enema guy

is back in full effect. This is a show where nobody gets an enema without a payoff in a future episode. That's the kind of detail we're working with. No good deed goes unpunished. Absolutely not. And certainly, I mean, Dot is here to smother him with his own coat

while asking what happened to grace and dignity. Amazing scene, amazing sequence. I like it the heart monitor is there. that we know that she didn't kill him, she just subdued him, you know what I mean? I was a little concerned. I was a little concerned about where we were headed with Dot.

And look, that would certainly maybe turn the audience against her a little bit. You know, that guy is clearly an asshole to the point where even henchmen are commenting upon it, but if Dot's just out here of murdering people in hospitals, I think it changes the,

changes the angle of our narrative a little bit here. But I love all of these Dot escapes. Every time she's outwitting, would-be kidnappers, in this case just like wheeling around some woman in a wheelchair to try to save Wayne's life, you know, switching name tags. And one thing that I think is becoming kind of her signature is in all of these scenes, she ends up like doubling back, basically.

She has an opportunity where she could bust loose. And for some reason or another, she's coming back to look after Wayne, look after Scotty, find them, help them, knowing that she's, she's the only tiger in this scenario. And certainly Wayne, uh, dope. up on pain meds, brain fried, and question for you, locked in the bathroom in perpetuity? A nurse will check on him eventually.

You think so? I'll check on him eventually. Yes, yes. How long do you think he's stuck in there? There's at least one competent nurse in this hospital, the woman who's like, you're not Sarah. Thank goodness for her. What's going on?

Shout out to her. I rebounded it like five times the look she gives her colleague who's standing right there. When he just continues to eat his Chinese takeout, she's like, do something. What are we doing here? Amazing stuff. Let's move to Wayne.

Wayne Lion, our cowardly lion, that he is like, yes, he says, ah, he says this thing. I just wrote it down because I just loved it so much. I just wait. Who came out? I'm sorry. And Dorothy goes, hmm. We asked this question last week. Does Dorothy actually care for Wayne or what's going on here?

not just like her, she could have left him there, her doubling back to protect him is not just what sells me, but like Juno Temple's performance, that absolutely like beautiful hug that they share, the, you know, her saying I love you, like all of the things, like I believe her in this moment. And I believe that she truly, like, yes, I also believe that she identified Wayne as a man who would never hurt her and a man who could protect her financially. I believe that that happened, but I also believe she genuinely, he is part of her pack. Do tigers have packs?

I don't think so. They seem like more solo hunters, but in this case, she's developed, you know, it's about your found family in these shows. The tiger has found hers.

The hug, I love that sequence and that visual. And I agree with you. I'm coming around more to the idea that she more than just cares for him and more than just protects him, but there is a love there.

There is something deeper there. It's just, different for her. And you get it. If you'll allow me to literalize the metaphor here. Like Wayne being in that hug, kind of full bore, eyes closed, just like being wrapped up versus Dorothy doesn't really have that luxury. Like, she is a person who has to have her eyes open at all times at this point. So it's not that she's not participating or doesn't care about him or isn't falling into his arms in the way that he's falling into hers. It's like,

she is the protector. Like, she's the person who has to make sure that he gets into the bathroom and that they all get out alive. Something I found out this week about David Ristell, who plays Wayne, is that he's married to Zazzi Beats, which I didn't know, but just makes him me like, I know.

Great, great job. Great job. David Ristel, right? Incredible work. Those are two people I need to see interact in person. Yeah.

Like, I need to see what that's all about. They were really cute, NPR, a tiny desk interview that I do recommend, uh, that you watch. Okay.

Next one is, okay, I understand that like some of this Wizard of Vaz stuff is like a little labored, but it's all kind of there. And this one blew my mind. I hadn't seen this anywhere. This is one that just my brain supplied to me.

Scotty is Toto. Toto is a Scotty dog. I'm just saying. Wow. That's just true. That's all I've to say about that. All right. Moving back to Lorraine Lion.

Wicked Witch of the Midwest, I'm not really sure how I feel about that. She does have an hourglass on her desk, which is a signature prop that the wicked witch has in the Wizard of Oz. Does that make Dave Foley, her flying monkey. I'm afraid it might. That's just what we're here for.

This was a very tough Dave Foley episode. Like, gets patronized pretty badly by Roy Tillman. Yeah. I'm sorry, if a guy has white hair and an eye patch, I don't think you can call him son. I don't think that's the way that works. Oh, son. I would also put son with lady.

Son and boy with lady. Same deal. Nor could you call him a pastry, but he also does that. Gator Tillman, this is a tough one because the Wizard of Oz believers, true believers, are putting him in the Tin Man category, I think only, kind of only because of Tillman, Tinman is his name, something, something heart, like there's something going on with Gator that Noah Hawley seems to see that I don't really see yet, but I am willing to be convinced that there is something, some sort of transformation

like he's capable of some sort of emotional awakening that that is possible for him. Still not sold after this episode, but we shall see. Do you feel any pity for him in this episode? I think this is the one where I started to

budge a little bit and it was the scene where he's in the truck waiting for his next big job. He gets, he's getting babysat by another henchman. He gets benched, not allowed to even come in the building. And when he's so desperately and so earnestly yells, I am the law.

Yeah. In response to all of that. He just feels like a poor little guy playing dress up. And I can't help but feel for him on some level, even if clearly he's in the wrong camp. Clearly, he's done some bad things. But, like, I don't know. He just feels like he's someone trying to be someone else.

And maybe that's where I see at least Noah Hawley's version of the Jack Skellington story, if not, you know, the text of The Nightmare Before Christmas, which is neither here nor there yet again. It reminded me a lot of Cameron and Ferris Bueller when he's sitting in his car. He's like, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go. You know, he's just sort of like talking himself up in the car. Listener, Deb, who wrote in last week about Joe Curie's character about Gator and said something about Oedipole.

And you and I were like, what? wrote it to clarify from this interview that he gave talking about his Gator's relationship with Nate Dean with Dot. Joe Curie says she's almost like an older sister or a girl on the street

that you have a crush on. It plays with the strange adipus complex that this character has. So straight from the horse's mouth. Maybe let's dip into some of Dot's version of events now then because I had this same thought. I hadn't even seen that quote from Joe Kiri

but in describing the timetable of Tillman and Dots, how old she was, and their previous marriage, the fact that if she was 15 when she met the Tillman's and 17 when she left, that's definitely more of an older sister relationship with Gator. Just in terms of their age difference alone, that is not a maternal relationship. And so I think we're seeing,

obviously her and Tillman's relationship changes dramatically by the fact that she's 15 or 16 when they get married. But her relationship with Gator changes a lot based on that information too. Totally. And so when we have to then mentally revisit their interaction last week in the house and sort of like what, you know, when she says, shame on you. Yes. It's less like maternal and more older sister.

More babysitter. Yeah, more babysitter. Very good. So circle back to your Jack Skelington issue. We should note that if the Tinman comp doesn't work for you, which I'm not fully there with that, I'm still thinking about it. There is a character in the Oz books, Jack Pumpkinhead, who does show up and return to Oz. Have you seen that film? He's just a character that bears a very close resemblance to Jack Skeleton, let's say.

Something that I think is true about this sort of like Oz, uncle Henry Anteem Homestead dynamic is like if you look at, when we go to the Tillman property and it's sort of color drained and there's like an old windmill there and all the sort of stuff like that like I can see it as sort of this like Kansas of Dorothy Gale's childhood property whereas their neighborhood where the lions like you know where Wayne and Dot live uh because it's all dressed up for Halloween has this sort of like fantastical Oz like quality to it right there's just like interesting decorations and figurines and everything everywhere and the street and lights and all that. It makes it look munchkin landlike. It makes it look more technicaler than when we're in the Tillman property. And so if that, if indeed that is a comp, uh, no, again,

Noah Holly could, you know, you could call him up and he could be like, I never once thought of the Wizard of Oz. Though when you name a character, I would call bullshit at this point. Yeah. Given everything you've laid out, there's no way. But all this kind of asked the question for me, who was the wizard? Roy Tillman as the wizard, question mark. You think so? Or is there someone bigger? Maybe.

I don't, the problem with the wizard comp. Yeah. I've not seen anyone else make this. I'm just trying like you to figure out who the wizard in this scenario would be. Well, I'm just trying to make sense of this crazy world, Joe. I don't think of the wizard as the villain of the Wizard of Oz. and I think of Roy is the villain here. But he is a leader under false pretenses.

He is power, he has the projection of power masking something more vulnerable and impotent and all this sort of stuff like that. So in that case, I can kind of see it. But again, like, even if Noah Hawley is sort of thinking about the wizard boss as he set some things up in the season, I don't know that he needs there to be like a one-to-one comp for every single character, every single person or anything like that.

So Roy is the closest I could get to something like the wizard, but if there is something else that we should be looking for, I'm happy to. Yeah, I don't get the impression it's straight allegory so much as playing with some of the iconography, playing with some of the ideas. Yeah. And I think that may be where we end up with Tillman is that he is the Oz figure, as you say, projection of power.

Also, one thing I noticed in this episode that I clocked a little differently, given some of the revelations, was just like the size of John Hamm, relative specifically to Juno Temple. We've seen that photo of them on their wedding day before, but it looked a lot different knowing that she was 15 or 16 years old. And you just see the way he's like towering over her. And she's not just blank, but deer in the headlights blank in that photo.

And some of those physical discrepancies, like they really feel a little different now. There was a moment when she looks like she's making her skip from the hospital and she's got the woman in the wheelchair. And she's like, we're just going to go outside on or like whatever. and she sees the henches walk in. And I had this brief flash of like, well, how does she know who they are?

And I'm like, on the one hand, she could literally recognize them, though it's been several years. On the other hand, they all just look like they're cosplay, Roy Tillman. They're all just like huge with the hats and the coats. Like they all just like look like they belong to his world.

And she's just like, nope. Last but not least. This is one that I like, both like and don't like. Monch, has the scarecrow question mark. When we meet him in episode one, he's got a bag over his head, a la the scarecrow when he does his home invasion. He is, you know, in Sam Spruill's mind, the consummate truth teller in this season.

He's got that eloquent bathtub monologue that he gave last week where he's just talking about like kings and wants and desires and needs and all this or stuff like that. So he's just like smarter than any, you know, like the Tillman's think he's some sort of dribbling idiot and he's not a dribbling idiot he's a weirdo and we'll talk about that a little bit more I have a little bit more to say about that but like but he's not dumb and they're treating him like

they have been treating him like he was dumb and I think that that is I don't know if that's as close as I could get to a scareco cop what do you think of that definitely makes sense at least in the way he's treated by the other characters in the show but I have to say in a in a monkless episode I missed him

I missed our beautiful ancient creature you know I felt his absence I think with some of our power players trying to pull their bullshit on one another, which was fascinating to watch. But you miss that kind of primordial force that he brings to a story like this. I love that primordial force. Yeah, I just think that like, and I think what's worth remembering about a story like The Wizard of Oz,

there's a great documentary about Oz and Frank Baum on PBS. They only watched part of sort of, sort of, as I was trying to process this, called American Oz, this being like a very distinctly American story. But this idea that all these, you know, the classic idea of the Wizard of Oz is like all these people want these things and they had them all along, the heart, the brain, the noive, like whoever you prefer. And so like, you know, if you call Wayne the cowardly line, like he is on one hand, but like, is there a way in which he's not, you know? And like, Munk is smarter than people think he is. And does,

you know, does Joe Curie's Tinman have like a beating heart? under there after all already. So, yeah, just things to think about. I don't think we should box ourselves in. Whenever something like this comes up, whether it's a Reddit invented theory or something that the creator is put together, I don't think it's something that we should like box ourselves into,

you know, preventing us from thinking beyond this framework of a storytelling. But like it's always fun and useful to think about myths and fairy tales and all these things is what you and I do all the time. or other things that we've seen and how they help inform our interpretation of what we're currently watching.

Well, especially in a show that is intentionally swerving away from some of that mythology, some of those archetypes. Like you mentioned, maybe the point is that they are not these characters, that they look like them, that they have the outline of them,

that there's something you recognize in them, but the wife in the story is not the wife that you're used to. And that ultimately might be the takeaway. The last sort of big umbrella that I want to talk about, and then I want to make sure that we've hit anything

else that you want to hit, but this idea, even though we are in a Moncliffe episode, again, I've been reading these Sam Sprole interviews. And I want to talk about this concept of protection, these layers of protection. Like, and the various guises that they take because, like, your protector can be your abuser. That's clear in some circumstances. We've got someone like, uh, Danish graves as like a lawyer who acts as this sort of like protective barrier. for the lion family of like he's like you're going to have to talk if you want to talk to them you have to talk to me and i've got all this information and all these like tactics and this is this is the force field in front of this family you're going to have to go through me um but something that are various cops some say like i think it was gator who was like uh i protect but i don't serve right it's not protect and serve he's like i protect i don't serve but we could definitely argue he does neither but we've got our are like more kind-hearted cops who we do think are attempting protection. You know, and Deere does take Scotty in at the end of this episode.

But here's what Sam Spruill said that I thought was so interesting about monk invading this woman's home. Fascinating to me. He says very early on, he was banished from his own existence. He's looking for a home and someone to look after him. He's had to look after himself the whole time. There is no kindness or compassion. showed towards this man, I think he moves in with that woman who's equally damaged, who's equally

abused in the hope that maybe they're instinctually, they can look after each other, that she can maybe be his mama. And so end quote from Sam Sprole. I just thought that was interesting of like, it seems so menacing when he's like, I live here now. But if, you know, but if it is in fact like a bid for vulnerability, a bid for protection, a bid for like, can you, can you help me in a sort of way? and how that connects him to Dot because like, surely isn't that what Dot did moving in with Wayne

of sort of like, I live here now, you're my husband now, like protect me sort of thing. And this idea that both of them, when he says he's had to look after himself the whole time, that screams Dot to me of like,

no one was looking out for her. She had to look out for herself in her marriage to Tillman, in her escape from Tillman, this idea of like, and it goes back to this idea of like why isn't Dot telling the truth to the cops or telling the truth to her family or telling the truth to the feds? And I think it's this idea of like if you've only ever been able to trust

yourself, if you only ever been able to rely on yourself because no one was helping you, then you get stuck in this idea of like, well, if something has to be fixed, I have to fix it. I'm going to fix this myself because I can't trust anyone else to do it for me. And certainly no one else knows how to hotwire a house or, you know, stick things in the oven in order to smoke things up or whatever. Build a proper zombie killer. You know, you can't trust just anybody to do that. There are the little ways in the first episode, and we remarked upon it at the time,

but there are little ways in the first episode where Wayne made it very clear that he's, though he loves her and is devoted to her, he's not going to protect her really from anything, like, not even his mom. Oh, you told your mom? She keeps asking him, you told your mom, you know? So, like, okay, you're not protecting me. And I think eventually, like, I think Wayne is maybe moving towards that if he has more information about her. But is he's just a vegetable.

My dude is cooked. Yeah. He's in the bathroom. I don't know. For Wayne, I'm so worried about him. My guy. What else do you want to say about this episode or this theme of protection or anything else? Yeah.

I think the difference. I mean, obviously there's difference in physical proportion in terms of the menace of some of the cases you're talking about. Like, Munk coming into that woman's home. You can see why to her. it would be alarming, why it would be incredibly scary, even if he is ultimately just like taking a dirty bath and demanding pancakes. But Wayne is opting into that in a different way

that makes the nature of that protectorship different for him and Dot. He may not have known exactly what he was being protected from, but you can tell by their personality types that he's, he's the golden retriever in our online discourse right now. So you can see how the tiger would come to protect him in this kind of unlikely animal friendship that they have developed. I don't know that,

I think it's interesting that we're seeing all these different parallels develop where maybe Dodd and Monk have more in common than we think. Maybe some of these characters who we see as just being opposite Tillman have more in common than we think in the way that Lorraine and Dot are clearly

now on the same side in some respects where we may not have anticipated them being. And I think the other one is, you know, Dot coming back to Indira at the end of this episode. and telling her the truth about her story. Yeah. Making breakfast in her kitchen, I guess.

Breakfast for dinner? Using some pots, using some groceries. I hope she did the dishes is all I hope for that situation. Because God knows her husband is not doing it. He's just taking slice after slice after slice in the garage. Apparently Dot's been there for hours and he didn't even notice she was there. I love that. I love that idea of like Dodd and Monk being more alike than we thought.

because it takes us back to that moment in the convenience store when she's got the gun on him and she doesn't shoot him. Yeah. Our interpretation was maybe like, okay, her moral line kicks in and she's like, well, I don't kill, you know, well, I think she killed the guy in the bathroom. But like, if I have a moment to think about it, I'm not going to kill someone. Maybe that's true, but maybe it's also she recognizes something in him that is familiar to her. I don't know. That moment is so curious and interesting to me. I want to go back and rewatch it.

He clearly recognized something in her in that first episode, too, where... She's a tiger. All the way back, clearly that she is for real a tiger, but in the confrontation in the bedroom with the flamethrower hairspray and all that, she flamethrows the first henchman right off the bad. No problem.

He has no idea what's coming. And maybe this is just the benefit of being the second person to get flame throwed or flame throwered. What do we think the verb form of flame throw is? Flame thrown? Flame thrown? Flame thrown. The second person in the room to get flame thrown.

But he kind of just like steps back. He just kind of steps to the side. And I read that initially. I was like, oh, this is just the more seasoned operative in this situation. But maybe it's a matter of like more getting the size of her and getting the sense of her and what she's capable of and anticipating that she could do something like that, even if it's just because she just did it. The other thing you mentioning this idea of like Lorraine, Lorraine, us being on Lorraine's side

because Lorraine is against Roy and sort of, you know, does that then, okay, I don't want to, I do not want to, the labor this Wizard of Oz thing, but like, does that put her in her like in the, is she a good witch or is she a bad witch? Like, fuck it, right? Like, that we don't know. Well, we do live in a very post-bad witch kind of world.

You know, it's hard to look at those stories as being entirely bad witches anymore, given where we've gone culturally since then. Are you, are you talking, you're talking about wicked? Are you in a wicked? I'm alluding. I'm alluding to the wicketification, the jokerification of our society. You know, every villain has a proper backstory these days.

I meant to bring this up earlier when we were talking about constructed realities, but I was just like ranting to myself about this earlier. I was reminded of when I was at the Television Critics Association, like, winter press tour a couple years ago. And the showrunner of a show, it was a very interesting year because it was this like reaction to the Trump election year when everyone came to that conference talking about how they're going to get

Middle America to watch oh, we didn't realize that the coast was so disassociated for Middle America and how do we like, oh, we're going to bring back Roseanne and we're going to do all this other stuff like, how are we going to get the silent middle of the country interested in television again, which I think they read the room slightly wrong there, but whatever.

But this guy who was show running a show that was quickly canceled, and I was glad for it, got up on stage and he says, we live in a post-truth world. And I, like, gasped because I was just like, I was so upset that he would say that in such a like, I was like, I understand that like, that's something we're kind of grappling with when we have people like Sean Spicer and Kellyan Conway and all the stuff that was going on in terms of like the White House's reality versus other reality.

Like, you were, I'm sorry to just give you like a visceral flashback to that time. Those are names I've not heard in a long time, Joy. A long time. But like, when that. That idea of that constructed reality was thrumming through our country, fine. We're dealing with it. But don't just go up and say, like, it's over. Truth is dead.

It lost. And whatever else won. I was just like, I was so mad about that. Yeah, send your emails to John Ham's nipple rings at gmail.com, guessing what show and showrunner this was. I love to see some people get to the bottom of it. I was so mad. That being said, have you ever heard my impression of Kenneth Brana?

intent. Have you been saving it for your S&L take? This is one of the ones you're going to pull out of your bag when they ask you to audition? No, I just only ever do one line. It has to do with the tiger. So I just wanted to say it here on this episode about tigers. He's about to, unfortunately, kick Elizabeth Debicki, you know, global treasure when she's down physically. He's saying the word admire.

But this is how he says it. He says, you know what I admire about the tiger? That's that's Kenneth Brana's wild and wonderful accent and tenant, which is just an entire journey of itself. But when Schwartman was doing his like, the tiger does this. And I was just like, I can only think of Kent Brana and tenant talking about what he admires about a tiger. Yeah, if there was any doubt in any viewer that this was Jason Schwartzman doing the narration, I'm going to guess those doubts fell completely away when.

Dot kind of pulls a fast one on one of her, like, orderly subduers and straps him into the table in a way that, like, I think we've gone beyond McGiver. We're now in John Wick, Jason Bourne type territory. But the narration from Schwartzman is like about how she's pretending to be vulnerable, but this is, in fact, a ruse in the most Schwartzman way possible. And I loved it. I'm here for it.

I don't know that all the narration worked for me, but that bit of it certainly did. I've never mad at Shores that shows up personally. All right, anything else you want to say about this episode before we go? One final note, again, on our guy Lars, who gives Dot the quick up down and a hay once he realizes she's been in his home the whole time. Maybe the world's dumbest man. But Epic MacStar 5 is just an exceptional fake golf club line. So shout out to whoever came up with the Epic MacStar 5, which

that is the only thing separating him from the tour at this point. I don't care what his wife says, live your dream, my man. Live your dream. Women, am I right, Joe? Oh, my God, women am I right? The de Glover, the de Glover himself, you're like he can make it.

He's going to have him for it. I'm very concerned about what happened to de-gloved him. Like, was it a golf-related accident? He's only doing one thing. He does one thing all day. He's got the drum kit in his garage. It has to do with the drum kit? We'll find out.

Oh, no. You know? Oh, no. All right. This was a delightful chat. Thank you for indulging our journey down the yellow brick road into the Wizard of Oz theory. If you have any thoughts or theories or questions or comments or concerns, John, Hans, NevilleRangs at Gmail.com is where you want to send them.

Producer for this episode was the great Kai Grady. And we'll be back next week. to see what wacky adventure stock is up to next. All right, see you then. Bye.