The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Fargo’ Season 5, Episode 6 Recap

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

Jo and Rob are back to break down the sixth episode of ‘Fargo’ Season 5. They open by talking through the various meanings behind the title “The Tender Trap,” revisiting the ongoing parallels between the show and the Coen brothers’ filmography, and nominating their favorite Minnesota nice moments of the episode. Next, they discuss how the series continues to peel back the true nature of two of the show’s most despicable characters—Roy Tillman and Lars Olmstead. Later, they close by highlighting more of the recurring connections to ‘The Wizard of Oz.’ Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Danny Hyfitz from the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. For all your fantasy football needs, check out the Ringer Fantasy Football Show with me, Craig Horlebeck and Danny Kelly. That's the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast. I'm Joanna Robinson joining me today. It's the great Rob Mahoney. We're here to talk about Fargo, Season 5, episode 6, The Tender Trap.

Rob, how are you? Honestly, thrilled that we have so many episodes left. I know. I'm so excited about this show, and I've been told by a reliable source. than a man only has so many words in his lifetime, Joe. But for us, we have at least five episodes left of really a wonderfully harrowing little show. It's so good. We haven't really been doing Fitwatch on this at all.

But I got to say, Monk's coat in this episode. You were into it. The red plaid with the massive fur collar paired with what we've already seen, the utility kilt and the boots and all that sort of. I'm like, this is just a look. It feels like the dream of the 90s are alive on Monk. and I'm just really enjoying it. Well, it probably came out of the closet of whoever used to live in the house with that elderly woman.

No, it's probably her coat. You think it's just hers? You think he can just pull it off? He's a big fella. But that's a coat that I could see an old woman wearing. You know what I mean? Anyway, all right, the tender trap. Written by Noah Holly and Bob Laurentis, De Laurenti's, and directed by Dana Gonzalez.

Again, Dana directed last week's episode. The Tender Trap, let's talk about the meaning of the title, as we like to do. This is the title of The Play that was starting to take. a movie is the title of Frank Sinatra song that was in the movie. And my understanding what the tender trap means is to be duped into marriage or commitment by the soft feminine wiles of a woman. Is that your interpretation of what the tender trap means? Well, I know you must agree with that interpretation, right?

Obviously. That's just something that we've all been subject to from time to time. You know, women in their tenderly trapping way. I was trying to get to the bottom of this, too, because I think there's certainly characters who might have felt as though they've been tender trapped in some ways, like your Roy Tillman's and whatnot. But like, symbolically speaking, I don't know that there's like a one-to-one for that concept.

And so I was kind of wondering, like, could the tender trap be applied to, to dot, for example, thinking, you know, this idea that she thinks she could have a normal life running away from all of this, the trap of that idea, of that kind, a different kind of tinder trap, if you will. But I also stumbled into, apparently there's an English band called the tender trap from the early 2000s

that I'm kind of digging. It's kind of a jangly indie pop vibe. I would recommend people check them out. I love jangling indie pop, as you know. That's fantastic. Yeah, I think this idea of domesticity, which is something I want to circle back to, but I think that that is something

that the season is definitely interested in deconstructing. I would say, for me, the most tenderly trapped person in this episode is maybe Indira, Indira, who's like, you know. Is it tender? Is there tenderness going on there? He had to have been tender at some point, right, in order for her to get locked into that terrible situation.

Obviously, also, we've been talking about tigers and traps and all of that. But what I love is, like, Monk who respects, you know, Dot calls her a tiger. Roy says, calls her a mouse. He says, you're a mouse and you're playing with your supper is how he talks about her. But, like, in Roy's twisted mind, even though he had all the power, it seems like he's like the aggrieved party and he was tenderly trashed by her is what he thinks, right? I think that's the closest we're going to get within

at least as far as where the characters are now. Beyond, you know, Vivian obviously gets kind of trapped in this episode when he thinks he's just going for the companionship of a lap dance from the stripper, who may have a restraining order against him, but in fact gets pinched in a couple of different ways that ye old tender trap. Yeah.

A tremendous neon sign that lights up in fun and exciting ways, the Tender Trap Strip Club. Okay. Cohen Corner, we did some homework this week for Cohen Corner, which is that Rob and I watched, rewatched No Country for Old Men, a film that neither of us had seen since it came out. But it was sort of like getting ridiculous that these things keep cropping up from the film. The thing that tipped it over the edge for me is we got an email from Melissa.

Bob who pointed out, who I guess has access to screeners, because I got this email a couple days from them, pointed out to me that like Gators tracker in this episode reminded them of Anton Chigur's tracker and no country for men. And I was like, thanks, Bob, whoever you are with access to screeners. I appreciate you. But like the windmill on the Tillman farm, which I was trying to connect to, I was trying to connect to the Wizard of Oz, but there is no windmill on the Antium Uncle Henry farm I looked. And I guess you wouldn't want one in tornado countries. Probably not. But the windmill shots in No Country are frequent and very mood setting.

Last thing I will say, in the rewatch, I think we're going to keep talking about No Country as we continue to talk about the season. For sure. But one thing that I went like, oh, was in the movie. Luella Moss is played by Josh Brolin. You know, it comes upon a case of money. and in trying to escape from Anta Sjcour, played by Javier Bardem, he is, like, hiding the case inside the various vents of motel rooms

and tying strings to them and going into other motel rooms and pulling the case through the vent with a string. And I'm like, is that not dot, like, setting up elaborate traps and alone times hijinks? Did you think of the same thing? Well, yeah, he had to, like, rip the hooks off of some clothes hangers in the closet to make an elaborate hook contraption. to fish the briefcase out of the vent at some point. It really was a reminder rewatching it that oftentimes, like, the most capable

and sometimes noble figures in the Cohen universe are really empathetic in the way that Llewellyn and Dot are, where they can, like, put themselves in the mind of someone else, even if it's the person pursuing them. Yeah. And it makes them, like, incredibly dynamic in these situations. Like, the opening sequence for Llewellyn of No Country for Old Men, where he stumbles upon a drug deal gone wrong, essentially, and stumbles upon all this money. The patience with which he exercises his plan

of basically, like, step by step, inching closer and closer, waiting for somebody to pop out from behind a ridge, waiting for someone to fire off a gun from behind a car. Like, that felt like Dot to me in the way that she's been so methodical over the course of this season in setting up situations where she can have

some kind of marginal advantage and obviously escaping all of her would-be attack. throughout. And I think what's so interesting about Llema Moss in that film, what a great film. I recommend people watching. Oh, my, what a picture. Cinema. The thing that gets, that puts Llewell in danger, really, like, he would have gotten away with it.

If he hadn't gone back with water for this guy who was surely past help, but it was sort of weighing on his conscience and he fills up some water to bring it back to this guy who was dying. and in doing so leaves behind evidence that makes him trackable, right? And so I like that idea of the, you know, his conscience. Like he's stumbles upon a drug deal and he takes them. I mean, whomst among us maybe wouldn't, but like, you know, in theory, that's not a moral upstanding guy who, like, stumbles upon a drug deal and takes him money. But then he goes back with the water. And so that's what makes Willemann-Moss and a lot of these Cohen characters so compelling

to your point of just sort of, there's a lot of the mix there. And I really loved this rewatch. I had a great time of it. Anything else for him that you want to shout out? Yeah, also just the way that him knowing how to do so much, Lewellyn, knowing how to evade Anton for so long, also kind of reminding me of Dodd and Fargo

where it's just like all of these hints at a crazy, strange and interesting life before the world of the movie began. And him and Anton Schager being so smart throughout that movie, so intuitive. and the way the Cohen's, like, the best Cohen drama to me is always about really capable, intuitive people who are just across purposes. There's no, like, I mean, obviously there are dunces.

There are, you know, Garrett Dillanth plays, like, a perfect, like, dunce of a deputy in that movie. And you get all those kind of side characters, but at the core, it's really smart people trying to anticipate each other's moves. And, like, that makes for incredible drama. With almost supernatural capacity to do so, which is sort of what we've seen in,

Dot. And like in these moments in this season of Fargo where Roy seems like he has a vision of Dot or Dot seems like she has a vision of Roy, that sort of supernatural connection in the cat and mouse chase. There's also the scene where Llewellyn is buying the gun and then like just trying to get the tent pulls. So like that, which reminded me a bit of Dot of the Gun Show. Absolutely.

Oh, and the last thing we should say. And again, I'll be interested to see how this rolls forward. But there is a significant wife character in that movie as played by Kelly's. MacDonald, who also, like the wife in Fargo, is like, you know, we assume violently screwed over even though she did nothing wrong. Yeah. So I wonder if Noah Hawley, when he got this wife idea, like, watched all of the Cohen filmography.

As I assume he constantly is watching all the Cohen filmography, but he's like, oh, there's another, there's another wife character that, you know, I might want to think about how things worked out for her. Okay. Two other Cohen things I want to say before we leave Cohen Corner. One is that we had a number of listeners, including someone named Richard, who wrote about the dealer plates on Dot's car as she's driving away at the end of last week's episode. And he wrote, when Dot drives away at the end, there is a close-up of a dealer license plate on the car.

The old Sierra that Jerry gave to Bishemi in the Fargo movie also had dealer plates, and there was a close-up of that as well. and then someone, listener Matt wanted to compare, we've been comparing Lorraine Lyon, Jennifer Jason Lee, another great episode for her, by the way, comparing her to her character in Hudsucker proxy. But Matt posits that she also reminds him of Julian Moore's character, Mod, in The Big Lebowski.

And he said she's very affected, but very confident in the affect she's adopted, even though it's incongruous with basically everyone else in her life. She absolutely despises the idea that men hold power and wealth, even though they're too stupid to know what to do with either one. She's hyper-focused on protecting her son as opposed to Maude with her father from a gold digger who she thinks is a threat to the family fortune.

I love that. And admittedly, one I would not have come to. I don't know about you, Joe, but, like, Lobowski is not seminal Cohen for me? I know. I'm so, I mean, I've never, I've literally never heard someone else say that, but like, for a lot of people, Lobowski is their favorite Cohen. Well, this is often considered. It's just me and me talking about it. No one is going to hear us mention this. No one will hear this and email us that John Ham's nipplewrax said to email.com to let us know how wrong we are. But like, yeah, Lobowski is a lot of people's favorite Cohen movie. And I agree, it's not one that I rewatch. And although maybe, you know, as with rewatching no country for old men, maybe we're watching Loboski now. But Labowski came out, I don't remember what year, Lubowski came out. But like what I know is that when I was in college, I feel like everyone was watching Lobowski all the time. And people were wanting to drink white Russians all the time. And it was just like a thing. What a time.

What a time to be alive. White Russians are disgusting. Okay. Minnesota Nice. We've been talking about. We've been like reading people's emails. We're going to do a new bit on the show, which is we're going to pick out our like the most Minnesota nice moment or line from the episode. Rob, what is your most Minnesota nice moment in this episode?

This was an easy call for me. And it was the debt collector leaving the message and at the end of it asking for the five-star review. Incredible shit. For someone, 192,000. $1,000 in debt, and you're like, hey, can you hook me up with these five stars? That's my two. Five stars from the debt collector calling Indira. The runner-up for me was at the end.

I don't know the perfect language in front of me, so I, but like Danish graves at the strip club once he like, once Lorraine has like eviscerated Vivian and his life and all that sort of stuff like that, he says something about like, have a good day. Like he says something kind of chipper and Minnesota nice in that moment, which, but the five stars on the debt. collector call. That was psychotic. Okay. Tremendous stuff. And I have an update straight from the source

too. I recently ran into, as you know, Joe, in my day job, I cover the NBA. Yes, you too. I recently had occasion to catch a Minnesota Timberwolves game in person. Had a delightful time. The Timberwolves are a great team. And I was chatting with their beat writer for the Star Tribune, Chris Hine, who's a pal of mine, and is enjoying the show. And I was

asking him about Minnesota nights. And he said, you know, as a transplant there himself, what someone told him when he moved there was that a Minnesotan will give you directions to anywhere but their house. And I thought that was a great Minnesota nice bit. That's so good. I love it.

Speaking of Rob Mahoney in sports, we also got, this is the last thing I have to say before we kind of dive into the episode. We got a couple emails from listeners who wanted to let you know, Rob, that the Epic Max star driver is a real club. I don't know if you said it I don't remember you saying it sounded fake

but apparently you did so Well I was I was marveling at how real the fake club sounded But I have exposed myself as someone who does not golf And frankly we'll never golf So I appreciate the tip we appreciate the error Here on the prestige TV podcast I should have known I should have known that it was too real to be fake My favorite email we got on the subject

And we got several was this guy Craig who wrote Sadly it has not proven to be the one thing separating me from the tour. So thank you. Thank you all for your emails. We have a couple other to read throughout the, but I will say,

the inbox popped off this week. And so I don't know if it's just like more people getting into Fargo, more people getting into our show, or I actually got an email from someone who works at FX who was like, I'm just testing if this email's real.

And I was like, yeah, it's real. I actually like to think that it's because this episode was sick. This was a great episode of a great season. And I thought, like, a lot of different things are coming to a head right now where theories, confrontations, like different character motivations. There's a lot to talk about. Should we start with debt? Our favorite theme of debt? We love it. We love debt around here. We love collecting it. We love being in it. We love buying

elaborate golf simulator and drum kit situations. Oh my God, the drum kits. Also, when Scotty's reading the Berkeley School of Music drumming book, it's like my favorite. It's not, it's not drumming for dummies. It's the Berkeley School of Music, like the advanced drumming book that he felt like it. Lars having a real episode, we'll get to a little bit more than a second. But yeah, Indira with the debt collectors. It starts and ends with Indira and her debt, right? We get the, like, the phone call, the please give this call five stars on the next survey moment, all of that. And then at the end, we get Lorraine's offer to consolidate her debt. And it's interesting because we had been wondering if Lorraine's role as a debt collector and Indira's, you know,

a terrible situation that she found herself being in debt, if Lorraine would use it as like a cudgel over her to like, you know, bend her. But, I mean, the Lorraine moves at the end of this episode, we're edging closer and closer to like in that question of, are you a good witch or are you a bad witch, you know, sort of like, is Lorraine the asshole you want on your side, like sort of thing? but her trying to hire Indira and offering to help her figure out her debt, consolidate her debt.

Not pay off her debt for her, but set her up so that she can pay it off for herself. What did you think of all of that? Well, it's certainly consistent with what we've heard from Lorraine before about Americans not wanting a handout, right? She's not willing to pay off the debt, as you said, but she's willing to set up the payment plan to make it a little bit easier in the meantime. I was interested in this thing because I was kind of waiting for Indira to get squeezed as a cop, right?

to exert pressure through the debt on her as a police officer. And if she ends up taking this route, into more of a private security line of work, I suspect the reason Lorraine is offering this is because she understands probably more than anyone else in this world that the most powerful kind of debt is for someone to feel like they're beholden. Gratitude, yeah. If she gets Indira out of this jam, which, I mean, you can see Indira cracking all over the place

just from the weight and the stress of being literally the only person in her house, who is concerned about being $192,000 in debt, you know she wants a way out of it. You know she's looking for the escape hatch. And this might have presented itself if in a way that comes with some strings attached. You know, I would be so curious to know the story of how Danish Graves found himself in Lorraine's employee

because they do have such an interesting relationship. There's a moment where she, like, stands next to him, she sort of, like, puts her arm through his arm. There's just like this, like, familiarity, this almost, like, family. And it's, you know, she certainly has no respect for, her husband and honestly who can blame her as we... Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

This was an amazing Wink Lion episode. How dare you? It was it the martini in the hospital that did for you or was it the battle reenactment back home? I was sold at the martini in the hospital or was it a gimlet in the hospital?

Oh, Gimlet, yeah, yeah. And politely offering it to the officers, but the battle reenactment with his little army men. Just adorable. Just adorable. His German, I thought, was pretty nice. too. All right. This is a pro-wink lion.

Listen, we all have our favorite lions, and I'm a staunched Wayne defender. And if you want to adopt Wayne guys, support you. But yeah, like, how did Danish find his way into her employee? Was it a similar situation? We've been noting Danish Graves, the eye patch. We met the guy with a missing eye at the gun show. We've been talking about the sort of like eye for an eye mentality, the Hamarabi pawn shop, etc. What did you think of Roy getting his ear clipped, like an ear for an ear sort of clipping

in the episode? I didn't even put together the ear for the ear. That's great. That's a great poll. I mean, he didn't clip Monk's ear, but it's just sort of like, I don't know, these like matching disfigurements are kind of interesting to me. It comes around, that's for sure. You know, that scene I have mixed feelings about. We get, you know, really an overt Donald Trump on TV on Fox News in the Tillman House. And in the interest of a fair and about, coverage on this podcast of a show that I know we are both very much enjoying. Like, last week we already had, no, like, we've already had Tillman's politics go from subtext to text in the show. This felt like bolding and underlining in a way that it didn't need

to be. And I'll say, like, the thing I liked about that sequence is watching Karen, who we haven't spent a lot of time with to this point. And less about what she's saying about the impeachment ongoing at this point in the story and more about the, the, kind of sad and desperate way she's trying to connect with Roy through it. Yeah. Right? And I think we see that when you're in that position being married to this kind of man, what you say and do doesn't really matter.

Like if you're a woman who's in this spot, if you disagree with Tillman or if you parrot Fox News talking points, he's going to hit you regardless. Like he's going, there's no way to pacify someone who's that abusive. I think this, this is confirmation of something we suspected, which is that she was getting physically abused by him because we saw her like flinch away in bed, but this is sort of like the first definite confirmation paired with the photos that we get of Dot in her file that Lorraine is reading at the end of the episode. So it's sort of like, we already kind of knew this about Roy, but this is the episode that's like,

yeah, it's this bad. This is how bad it was. This is what she was desperate to escape. And both of those things, this event and seeing the photos at the end, which I I kind of want to talk about in greater detail later, but even knowing who Tillman is are very jarring and, like, distressing to watch. Like, seeing it on screen right in front of you is always a different feeling. And we're getting to know who Tillman is a little more with every episode,

even if it's just like the visceral visual of seeing him in action in these sorts of situations. On the justice, just to wrap up this sort of debt justice idea, which you could certainly connect to Karen, like talking about impeachment and justice. in Donald Trump. But again, I just don't think you need to, like, maybe just because I'm so tired of anything, Donald Trump. I'm just sort of like, I don't really need it. I got it. I get the illusion and I don't need it, like, literalized.

But the, we have monk trying to get paid what he's owed, right? And he says this thing. I mean, there's 9,000 killer milk lines in this episode. Just dropping bars out there. When a man digs a grave, he has to fill it. Otherwise, it's just a hole. Holy shit I mean

Holy shit I mean but that's the idea is like once the grave is dug it's gonna get filled one way or another right that's this idea of like

debt or justice or something that is almost and I could connect that back to Anton Chigur in a certain way of like this idea of like

this is just this is just how it goes and I'm not really I'm not I don't feel any kind of way about it I'm not angry about it. It's just like, this is how it goes.

Once I flip the coin, here we are. Once I've dug the grave, you've got to fill it. That's it, you know? Yeah, that kind of like fairness or fate that no country plays with, with Anton Shigur. It is certainly like of a piece with monk-style nihilism, I think. Yeah. And there's obvious parallels between those two characters. I think they're drawn a little bit differently.

Like, monk is not quite as cold. I think has ways in which it almost makes it more difficult to anticipate. what he's going to do next. Like Anton is such like, again, a force of nature type of villain like we've been talking about where it's a straight line coming after Llewell and over and over and over versus I don't know what Monk is going to do after this exchange. What I do know is that I think he's a person who can be reasoned with, but he has his own kind of logic and his own code.

And I don't think the Tillman's really understand it at all. And I'm not sure throwing a bag of money at the feet like the feet of the boogeyman is going to do what you think it is. And there was a sequence in no country I flagged because it sounded so much like Monk where Woody Harrelson, who plays like a bounty hunter in that story, is talking about Anton Shiger. And he says, like, you don't understand. You can't make a deal with him. Even if you gave the money back, he'd still kill you just for inconveniencing him. He's a peculiar man. He might even say he has principles, principles that transcend money or drugs or anything like that. And if that's not our guy, Monk, I don't know what is. Like, he certainly has a,

philosophy at work and he has ideas about who needs to pay for what and when and how. But I don't think the money is going to close this loop. There is an interesting dichotomy, though, that I want to track because the moral center, I think we would all agree, I think, of No Country for Old Men is Tom Lately Jones's character, this sheriff. And we already noted, or our listeners already noted, that both Tom Lee Jones's character and John Ham's character have a nearly identical monologue

about their fathers and their fathers before them being sheriffs and stuff like that. But like what sort of dark mirror of that story is Noah Hawley trying to tell when the sheriff at the center of this story seems more monstrous

than the character that reminds us of Anton Chigar, you know? Well, their temperaments are so different obviously just like dispositionally. Tommy Lee Jones is just like a congenial grandfather in that movie like Crack and Joe doing bits. Like, he's a delightful presence

in a pretty dark movie. But ultimately, as someone who is kind of afraid of the circumstances and the case and the violence and is showing trepidation, and, you know, not to spoil the ultimate

kind of progression of that movie, but I'll just say, like, I can't imagine a character like Tillman doing, having the same reactions to violence that Tommy Lee Jones does in that movie. And if anything,

we get a taste of that in this episode where Roy is, like, saying that he should stop pursuing dot, that it would be smart to stop. And yet he almost like can't help himself but continue. And he also said something to that great quote you read about that great Woody Woody Harrelson line about Shigar and Woody Harrelson is phenomenal in this, in everything, but in this movie.

But that reminded me of something that Tillman said where he was talking about like how he was in an previous episode that Dot owed him something that a debt that cannot be repaid with money at this point. You know what I mean? Like, it's gone too far. And, yeah, so I'm just wondering, like, if the share of characters are flipped in a way, like if you took the Tommy Lee Jones archetype, but he made that character the monster, then should we be looking at, like, monk who we presume is the monster?

And I think we've already had moments of, like, empathy for him, you know, which is not something that Antishigur ever, you know, earns for me. So last thing on the debt sort of justice thing that I want to say is the, the justice that Lorraine enacts on Vivian at the end, which is this just like absolute thorough ruination of a person's life. And her saying like the mistake you made was thinking that death is a worst thing that could happen to you. Basically, I just want you to like suffer in you know, like, oops, your son's tuition isn't paid. He's getting expelled. Like it's just like, it's thorough. It's complete. It is enduring. And you can like, you can bet that even if Vivian

himself figures out some way to crawl out. out of this hole, Leraine and Dadeish will figure out a way to put it back in the hole. Because it's just like once you've crossed her in that way,

I feel like it's just like you're never, you're never getting out from under this. Well, the grave has been dug, apparently. But yeah,

that was, that was the most vicious thing we've seen this entire season. Like, our guy just showed up looking for a lap dance and got his guts ripped out and just laying

on the floor. It was brutal, brutal to watch. I was like, Vivian is not someone that I'm like, that concern. He seems pretty, if a stripper has a restraining order against him,

like, I'm like, this guy seems like he suck. His son, though, we don't know if his son, you know, it's just like a nice boy trying to go to Notre Dame. We don't know. But hopefully he figures something out. Do we want to talk about, like, constructed reality again? Because we've already talked about this a bit in terms of, like, what Roy, Roy's vision of himself as the, like, aggrieved party,

is the abused party when he talks about Dot. Or him sort of cloaking his. crimes in, like, hypocritically cloaking his own crimes in the law, like, when he confronts Vivian outside the tender trap. And Vivian's like, can he move down to Sue Falls to be with her mother? And he's like, keeping tabs on the poor girl? Like this, like, mock righteousness from Roy that he sort of uses to justify the awful, terrible things that he does.

And that, I think, feeds into that larger idea of constructed reality that we we've been talking about. I love, like, Fargo's on another level with those kinds of conversations, too, and those kinds of confrontations where you can, you can feel like the edges of the frame tightening around Vivian's neck almost. Like, it is, you know, first from Roy, out front of the tender trap, and then later with Lorraine on the phone inside the tender trap, like those bookends kind of showing how, you know, players like Vivian, who may think of themselves as like, oh, I'm rich, I'm powerful, I own this

bank. but there are levels to this stuff and there are people who can exert all kinds of pressure on you for their own purposes and at the end you end up in one place and it's just like clearly a pile of ruin. I want to go back for a second and say I don't necessarily

I'm not saying that what Lorraine is doing is proportionate to maybe the dirt bag, shit bag things that Vivian has done and it is worth thinking about the way in which if we think of Roy's king and Lorraine's queen the way that like you know the common folk get squashed in these power of struggle

between these people who are, you know, they're both punching down at Vivian to a certain degree. I just don't have a lot of empathy for Vivian, but, like, I can see how he feeds into that other kind of story that they want to tell. Lars, Lars and his constructed reality. Let's take a moment to talk about Lars. It's quite elaborate, it turns out.

Like, genuinely the worst person you've ever met. What do you want to say about Lars' monologue about what he wants in a wife? As a husband of a wife, Rob. I just know, you know, last week we talked about when Tillman and Lorraine finally came face to face about Tillman being kind of the ultimate villain of this show and have you put anyone across a table from him

that they become more sympathetic. I kind of think if you put Lars and Tillman across the table that I would start to think Tillman was making some good points. That's where we're at. Like the critical, radioactive levels of this fucking guy happening in this. sequence are off the charts. And I think there's a million different ways in which you can pick out little things from his giant speech about what he wants in a wife, specifically like

a cheerleader who cooks and cleans for him effectively. But man, you could not find a bigger point of contrast between this season of Fargo and Fargo 86 in particular, where the relationship between Marge and Norm is like such a beating heart of that movie. And in particular, the idea of like, I want a wife, which is something that he keeps saying. over and over. And in that movie, it's like, when Marge gets called into work before the sun comes up, Norm, like, insists upon waking up to make her eggs, right? It's like, that's the dynamic of the sorts of functional relationships we see otherwise in kind of the co-inverse. And that's why you get a relationship in that movie where, you know, it ends, I think, beautifully and really

sweetly with Norm getting his art of like a mallard duck or something on a postage stamp. Yeah. And even after all of the violence, all of the casework, all of the casework, all of the all of the legwork that Marge has done with, like, throughout the movie, she's so thrilled for him to get his art on this stamp. And it's because, like, he's been supporting her the whole time. So the idea that Lars really wants, like, a extremely one-sided relationship, and he literally says it. Like, he literally says he wants a relationship oriented around him,

and it never once occurs to him to stop and consider what that means for the other person involved. Truly heinous stuff, to say the least. But Jesus Christ, guy. And when you hear this, like, 1950s. mentality come out of other sort of men and other things. Usually at least they like contribute to the finances in the house or something. Like I'm not saying that's a, that makes it okay for you to be like, I want a wife who could take care of my needs sexually and like, oh.

His man needs, Joe. Yeah, his man needs. And like say, you'll get them next time because you're amazing and all that sort of stuff like that. Like it's not justified if you are bringing home any sort of money, but the fact that Lars is literally contributing nothing. thing. He is simply a drain on the battery of their home as just incredible stuff. We mentioned when we, I think the first episode that we did covering the season, we talked about

this essay that Noah Hawley was inspired by about, I Want a Wife written by a feminist writer in, you know, in Proto Miss Magazine in the 70s. And I told you that I read that. And there's a lot of that language in here, but it's meant ironically. in the article, and Lars is saying it like earnestly. And this idea of Indira coming back and saying we can talk about who really needs a wife later, I think is the thing that most directly feeds into that article that Noah Hawley read where because it is a woman talking about how much she would like to have a wife. And Adira is like, listen, I work hard and my job absolutely sucks and is punishing.

And everything is really terrible. And I would love to have a wife. I would love to have someone or like just a partner, a norm to keep. get up and make me eggs in the morning, you know? Like, that would be nice. Just a guy who's not going to fall asleep on his own fake green in our garage. That's all she's really looking for. The bar is so catastrophically low.

And yet Lars cannot help but trip over it here. And, you know, I'm wondering about that as it relates to Indira, who, again, is a very similar kind of character to what we've seen in previous Fargo seasons, in other Cohen's stories, right? This police officer who is doing diligent work, who is caring about the people who, like, as a viewer of the story, like you should care about, like you should be investing in trying to protect. And I wonder if some of the message of this season as it relates to debt, as it relates to America, is that you can be simple and decent and it's still not enough, that there are these

systems that pull us down and they can come from hospital bills and they can come from credit cards and then come from your man-child husband sometimes. What does she say, like, dirty underwear, household of dirty underwear from your man-baby husband? Oh, God. Yeah. And Dira, get out the last constructed reality I want to talk about, we've already

talked about Wink Lions constructed battlefield, but like, poor Wade. It's accurate. Incredibly accurate.

Great recreation work. Good job, Wink. But our guy, Wayne, in the hospital when the feds are talking to him

and he says, she's your wife, but also she isn't. Right? And Wayne is just like trying to get certain neurons to connect in his poor

fricased brain. You know, obviously, Wayne is living in a constructed reality. But it's one that, like, I feel like I'm rooting for. Like, all I desperately want, similar to the way that, and we'll talk about this concept a little bit more later, but, like, similarly to the way that Fargo, the film ends with Norman Marge and domesticity, or I talked about this before, Fargo season

one ends with two characters that we are protective of in, like, domestic sort of bliss and comfort. I desperately want the whole lion family. I'm not content for just Wayne. I need Wayne and Scotty and Dot to all be safe and to be together by the end of this. This is something I really care about. Well, for one, Scotty has a promising musical career ahead of her.

I think we have no choice but to protect Scotty at all cost. Really slamming it. Really crushing the drum kit, the like 50-piece drum kit that Lars has assembled in his garage. Never a phase. Mom, it was never a phase. The thing with Wayne, like, I agree that he is kind of, you know, surrounded by the biggest constructed reality in the show. And it has the biggest lie kind of propping it up, but maybe also the most truth to it.

There's an emotional honesty to it. For sure. Yeah. Like Dodd is here because this is something that she genuinely wants. It's just she lied about how to make it happen. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about zebbound, terseptitite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity.

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if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. Let's talk about the Wizard of Oz, shall we? Let's go back to

to Oz. We got a lot of email responses to this situation. One of my listeners, Luke reminded me, I forgot about this. Oh, Brother Worth, though, is my favorite Cohen Brothers movie, so I don't know why I forgot about this. But Luke reminded me that Luke wrote, the illusions of Wizard of Oz have a clear precedent in Coenland. You will surely recall the scenes in O'Brother where they're hiding in the bushes at the

Clan Rally, then steal the robes to disguise themselves, a near B-for-B remake of a very similar scene in the Judy Garland movie, all the way down to the whoa, you. Oh, whoa, chanting. And then there's also some interesting things that Coens are doing with their color palette in that movie that is different but not unlike the Fleming film. So, yeah, I forgot about that great Wizard of Oz moment in O'Brien, I wonder if that was like something that.

No Holly, in what I again assume is his endless and exhaustive rewatch of Cohen movies are like, oh, a Wizard of Oz moment. Maybe I could do some of that. Added both of them to the list, you know? The homework grows ever long. We're going to be on like Barton Fink by episode nine. I can't wait. We got a couple emails and someone made a gif for us about the, so in Lorraine's office, a gif you mean.

A gif, in Lorraine's office, we agree on so many things, Rob, on this, we'll never agree. Lorraine's office, there's a giant painting behind her with the words, no, no, right? If you put that on its side, it reads Oz. This is a visual thing, so I don't know how to explain it to people listening to the podcast. We'll post it. We'll forward it along. And then someone made a GIF, like, just moving the letters around. It's like one of the most elaborate, I don't know how this person did it, Bill.

I don't know how you did this, but they made a GIF moving the letters on the poster to read Oz. So that's some incredible stuff. I got a lot of emails correcting me that Toto is not a Scotty dog, but a Karen Terrier. So, again, we regret the error. Terrier Hive. Chill out, guys. Let's relax.

It's fine. We love accuracy on this podcast. Oh, unless or at least, Morgan, our listener, Morgan and a couple of the people pointed out that when Roy is leaving Lorraine's house, I already told you about this, when Roy is leaving Lorraine's house, he says, what's next? A monkey with a hat, which feels like a reference to the flying monkeys and the Wizard of Oz. He says that to Danish, who is, you know, if anything, perhaps Lorraine's flying monkey. Though is Roy, is Lorraine the wicked witch, or is Roy the wicked witch is another email we got?

because this is what Mike wrote. Roy is obsessed with, quote, getting Dorothy as revenge for an unpayable debt. Gator and his goons of the flying monkeys dispatched to collect Dorothy. We have yet to see it. They'll go after the little dog, too. He oversees, Roy oversees a draconian fiefdom

with its own set of laws, and he more or less astro projects to check in on his story. So, yeah, we had put his roy in this sort of, like, wizard slot, but what do you think about Roy as the Wicked Witch in this particular scenario? Clearly, we're thinking too small. You know, Roy's place in this story, he could be literally every character at different points by the end of our theory corners.

So I'm open-minded about all of this. Here's the most important thing about whatever Wizard of Oz illusions we want to pull out of this. The thing that I was really sticking on since we talked about it last week is like, why? Because I don't think that Noah Hawley would just to be cute put a bunch of Wizard of Oz stuff in here. So like, why the Wizard of Oz in this particular story he wants to tell? And the best thing that I came up with was like what is, because the clearest character we have, we're guessing on a lot of the other ones, but the clearest character we have is Dorothy, right? And what is Dorothy say over, there's no place like home? Right? So this concept of, as you already pointed out with like Margin Norman Fargo, this idea of like home as the ultimate aspirational goal in the Fargo universe. This like home sweet home, no place like home, home safe. and sound. Wayne says to Lorraine in this episode,

I want to go home, my home. Like, that concept of what he and Dorothy Bill, Lauren's like, I'm sorry, your wife burnt it down, or whatever she says. But also, like, this idea of, like, what kind of man is at the center of that home and how does that determine? You know, like, because Dorothy,

as she explained to Adair in last week's episode, like, Roy was supposed to be a protective home scenario for her. Wayne is supposed to be a protective home scenario for her. One would hope that Indira would feel like Lars could be her at least partner in these sort of things. So, like, as the show is always interested in, like, women and, you know, their various strengths and weaknesses and complexities, this season is also very, very, like, particularly interested, I think, in, like, masculinity and what it means. Like, you know, Roy is obviously, like, performing Marbo Man, like, masculinity. But, like, but, but he can't actually protect, you know, he's the, he's the danger inside of his own home to his current wife to, we presume his first wife, to dot his second wife. He can't protect his kids.

Like, you know, the, like, monk gets in and draws weird bloody runes on the wall. Like, that idea of protection, which is something we've talked about a couple weeks in a row now and this idea of home. and this idea of home and what does it mean to be home what does it mean for a home to be sweet home what does it mean to be home safe what is safe at home all that sort of stuff I think is sort of kicking around the margins of this season

well and whether home is something you want to return to right it's kind of an exploration of the American family in general in that regard where in 1939 you end up in Oz you're trying to get back home but like maybe for I think for a lot of people in this day and age home is the place

you are journeying away from you're trying to put distance between yourself and where you grew up for a wide variety of reasons. And dots, like, constant struggle to maintain that distance. That's kind of a riff on that mythology in a different way. That's a really good point. Something that I didn't spend much or enough time on the Fargo TV Reddit board, though it is a great place to be. Honestly, those people are very smart.

But what I read this week that there's on the score during certain things that Dorothy Dot is doing when she is breaking Wayne out of the hospital last week or sorry hiding him in the hospital last week

when she's running around doing her protection thing there's a sound on the score that I thought was ticking of a clock it's her whisking the bisquick it's the sound of her

whisking the bisquick is on the score when Dot is doing things to protect her family so again it's this sort of like home sweet home. Like I am making the biscuit for you. I'm protecting my family. I went back and listened to like the instances that people let and it's totally true and it's absolutely wild. Great stuff. Incredible drop. Amazing pull. We might need like musical theory corner at

the end of some of these episodes. We got to really dig a little deeper. I'm always the worst at picking out like clues in a score. So I appreciate you. Fargo TV Redditors. Oh, we get the election shoe kind to drop. We're getting increasing election mentions. You've heard them all season. Royce is essentially like the election's looming. We can't, we can't still be chasing Dorothy. We've got to focus on this. And then Lorraine assigns Danish to go off and steal an election, which I'm really excited to watch what they fully do. What are your thoughts on all of that in the show? I think we're going to get a debate episode at some point, which should be interesting. Look, as a former West Wing viewer myself, we love a debate episode.

around here. We love a debate spectacular. So I can't wait to see how Lorraine intends to undermine him because Tomens, you know,

now hit her where she lives. I think going after Lorraine's daughter-in-law is one thing. Going after her money, I think expresses a knowledge of what that character wants

and what is valuable to her. But we're getting to the sensitive underbelly of Lorraine Lion here. And I think we're going to have her lash out pretty aggressively. I also really liked

at the beginning of the season. I feel like you were the one who pointed out to me this concept of like the blood, the blood lust or the building blood rage in a character in a Cohen film. Blood Simple is sort of like our best example of this, but this happens again and again. It's almost like you get a taste for this and it kind of builds into a frenzy.

I feel like we're watching the body count stack up from Roy, right? He kills Cancer Guy in this episode. Sorry, I had a real name. Oh my gosh. Our rest in pieces, cancer guy. I'm pouring one out. You know, angry enema guy is now a dead enemy guy. You know, he kills the shitty husband last week.

You know, he's just like, it feels like he's getting reckless, I would say, with his, you know, I'm sure these are not the first people that he's just sort of bumped off. I still have questions about what happened to his first wife. But it just feels like he's ramping up and feels a little bit more reckless as he gets more, you know, he's a tightly controlled guy. But he's fraying at the edges because of this Ahab, Moby Dick, like obsession with Dorothy. Yeah, I mean, she's clearly the thing that alludes him. We get this exchange, you know, when he's talking to Monk about, or I guess it's in the prelude of him meeting with Monk about how Dorothy's like the one woman he had a problem breaking, which is certainly evocative language. I think it kind of circles the idea of women as kind of livestock to Tillman, right? They need to be kind of like tagged and branded.

Like he's there to pick up. He's there picking up, you know, a bull. he in a way is trying to track down what he considers to be his own property in a much grosser way. Well, that kicked for me, given how recently we watched No Country, that kicked for me

the sort of story that Tomley Jones' character tells Kelly McDonald's character about the livestock being strung up and thinking it's dead and it coming back to life and it's just sort of like, you don't even, you know, like I think Monk says meat is meat or something like that, but it's just sort of like,

You don't know, even if you think you've got the cow sort of trussed all the way up and stuff like that, you don't know sort of when it's going to come back kicking. Here's what Roy Tillman says. If I had a nickel for every time she found daylight when I thought she was buried, again, we've been curious all season sort of like what precisely it is dot was running away from. What is she so scared to go back to? What is she so fiercely protective of? And it's just this idea, that imagery of finding daylight when I thought she was buried is grim, to say the least. But just great writing. Guess what? Fargo is a well-written show.

It's a really good show. And not just in terms of lines like that, but, you know, I think one structural thing that kind of blew me away about this episode is we don't really have dot in it at all. She doesn't appear in this episode in the action. the only time we see her is at the end when Lorraine opens the folder. And you see, you know, there's this whole kind of exchange leading up to that about the idea of making yourself a victim.

And it could never be clearer that Dot did not make herself a victim, that Tillman put her in that folder, and she spent the last decade, like, trying to get out of it. And to withhold Dot's presence, which can be manic and interesting and funny, and like a light in some of these scenes,

I think heightens the darkness of some of the exchange and the intensity of some of the exchanges, but then it leads into this moment at the end where you see things as Lorraine is kind of experiencing them in that moment. And, like, I mean, the pictures are absolutely horrific in terms of the photos and the x-rays of Dorothy after, like, what Tillman did to her. That's brilliant.

I hadn't thought about that at all. Rob, I love podcasting with you. It's a delight. I just want to shout out a couple lines in this episode that I'm going to hold close to my heart. A monk saying you don't yell at the Boulder for being a wrong. Rock. Also, just Sam Spruce delivery. He's just

incredible in this season. He's so good. And then the rest are all Lorraine lines because they're so good. Well, the whole final sequence is almost like the world according to Lorraine Lion. She's just dropping wisdom. It's like a ripping off pages of a daily calendar with a

quote from Lorraine every five seconds. I would buy 10 of 10. I do want that for Christmas. Are your balls in your belly looking for a place to hide? Is how the conversation starts. But earlier she said When Roy drops off Vivian's shirt for her

I think that's the moment That she says this is tit for that Which I just like really loved Just a tiny tweak on the phrase Or when she's talking to Wayne And she's like, we got out all your stuffies Stuffies Chef's making both Booggini

Those little onions you like I mean it's just like Her little, like, baby voice that she uses on him is just Jennifer Jason Lee. No, no, it's... Also, the not now reaction when they wheel in, Wayne, just like, good.

Like, this is not the time to deal with my son who has recently been electrocuted. All right, anything else? What else do you want to shout out in this episode that you think is? I think there's a couple things. I have to say, I don't love some of the Indira monologues.

And I think there's clearly a discrepancy in terms of how well-versed she is in this kind of criminal world relative to Lorraine and Roy. Like I'm baking that in, that's completely understood. Yeah. But like some of the speeches,

like the one she gives to Lorraine, it feels like she's, it really feels like she's trying to make, and by she, I mean, the writers of that dialogue are trying to make a capital P point. Yes. Or she's saying things

that are exactly on her mind in a way that don't really make sense in the scene. Like her ranting about her man-child husband to Lorraine, I get wanting to get it off your chest, but it's just like, that kind of stuff doesn't really work for me as well. I mostly agree with you because I do think,

I think it's of a piece with the Trump appearance where it's just sort of like, you're saying the quiet part out loud in a way that, you know, you could just make your point a little bit more suddenly. So I agree with that. I will say, I think her saying that about her husband

might have been the thing that pushed Lorraine to be like, come work for me, right? She's like, oh, you want to talk about man-baby husbands? My husband is currently making pew-pue noises in his office. You need to stop. Let them have it, boys. Let them have it. The one note we didn't really hit on yet was the kind of like interagency moment

where Indira meets with the FBI agents and they kind of come together. And this is very far ago to have officers from like different jurisdictions, different law enforcement agencies. They finally meet. they start to put the puzzle pieces together and their investigations kind of merge in most of the versions of this type of story. And it almost always happens

like I feel like in a diner like this one. Like this is where this scene happens. Yeah. And it becomes very clear in this one that there's a huge disconnect. That like Indira and the agents are not speaking the same language, that they are not existing in the same world.

And it starts to get at the way that sometimes in these sorts of investigations and especially in movies about, them, the actual victims get washed away in the scope of criminal conspiracy. Like, Indira is insisting, like, what about the abuse? Like, what about these murders? Like, what about these individual crimes that are being committed? And the FBI is so stuck on seeing past Dorothy to see the operation and uncover the evidence

about how can we prove this vast criminal conspiracy? And they're missing the stakes on the ground that Indira has been dealing with all season. And it's funny because, like, when you compare that to, you. the earlier scene where the feds were trying to get like approval from their boss and he's like, just leave it. So they're feeling frustrated about that because he's sort of brushing off like

the militia and the criminal conspiracy of that. Although I think the FBI agents have now told us that the head of the militia is Karen's father? Yes. Did we know that? Did I just miss that? I think it's like gently implied because he talks when he's in Tillman's house.

Yes. This is Mr. 1776 who showed up in the Tillman residence and was like asking for more guns effectively. He said something about Karen that like I think in the moment sort of implied that. But I, this might be the first actual confirmation. I think I was very distracted. In that episode, he popped off like a pretty subtle aliens reference that I was just like, this guy's guy. I'm not, may not be aligned with him politically, but this guy's got something going on. But we can play pub trivia together.

And it makes sense to me that Karen is like this sort of political marriage. for Roy, right? Sure. Like, in terms of him amassing power, he went from Dot who does not bring him any power to Karen, who is like a political marriage. And then he has this guy's grandkids now

and this whole thing. I love the show. I love that, as you say, we have four more episodes left. I'm really excited about that. Anything else you want to say? I think one final thing, again, I want to circle back to this. Again, more of a far.

wide situation is in seasons of Fargo, in the movie Fargo, like the idea of the rich in-laws is something that pops up a lot, like the Lorraine-type figures is a common presence in those stories. And the idea that we're turning the corner from rich in-laws as like a vehicle for judgment, right, something like feeds an inferiority complex in the story and the way that like she looks at a character like Dot, for example, that we're turning the corner into a more sympathetic relationship is really exciting in terms of like how the alliances and the bonds of these characters are developing. I just never would have anticipated from where this season started that Lorraine and Dot would end up on the same side. I just assumed Lorraine was going to be

suspicious the whole time that she was going to think of Dodd as and I quote a sassy thing with a tight caboose who's trying to exploit her precious little boy in his stuffies. But we're just seeing like new sides of Lorraine every episode. Like there's so many reasons to think that she and Roy would be aligned and that last episode in the Tiger, they were clearly not and they were just budding heads from the moment they met. And now we're seeing, you know, I think what's kind of like a dream in some in-law relationships, which is the idea of not having to convince your in-laws who you are, but they open a folder and they see the history of your life and they see all of the things that maybe they should have taken more seriously. Like, that's a really evocative idea.

And such a fun spin on the like, oh, you told your ma, like twist from the early episode. of kind of the lion family dynamics. It's something, I know that you're, we talked about this on a recent House of our episode, but I know you're a big Last of Us fan. This is a concept that Mallory and I talked about a lot in our coverage of The Last of Us, season one, which is this idea of like what makes an us, this idea of the shifting lines of tribalism and just sort of like, when do you circle the wagons and where, around who? And like, what circumstances move someone who was outside of your circle to inside of

of your circle. So like in The Last of Us, we've got Joel and Ellie and Ellie is not the Us. It's like Tess and Joel are the Us and Ellie is not, but then we lose Tess and then it's like Joel and Ellie are like the cemented, connected forever us in that show. And so this idea that like Lorraine viewed the Us as like the Lions, her family, right? And that Dot was this intruder. You know, Scotty was in her Us, but not, but not Dot. And now, she's like, well, but if it's us against Roy, then you're in us.

You know, then you're inside my circle. So I always think those kinds of stories are interesting where those lines of tribalism move and bed. Well, let it be known that this was the week that Wink Lion became one of us. He joined our inner circle.

That he was the one to tell us all that the male of the species is called a ballerino. Okay, listen, listen, you know what? I'm moving to supporting you. I'm going to support you now. I support you in your love of Wink Lion. It means a lot, Joe.

He's no Wayne Lion, but he is here, and his name is Wink, and that's incredible. All right. John Ham's nipple rings, not nickel rings. John Ham's nipple rings at gmail.com. Please continue to send your thoughts, theories, elaborate gifts. Yeah. Maybe like what Scottie's band name should be called. because clearly she's getting some off the ground here.

Very, like, Kim Pine, if she had never met Scott Pilgrim Energy to where Scottie is right now. So I'm very excited about her musical future. I hope she, like, keeps the Berkeley School of Music drums book. Also, I just thought it was really sweet when she comes running in and just, like, throws herself on Wayne and Wayne,

who, again, is just like a completely cooked potato at this point. It just sort of, like, comes to life a little bit as he wraps her up and hugs her and stuff like that. The sweetest line delivery of this episode for me is when Wayne is being interrogated and Scotty has brought up and he just says, Scotty plays the drum. And it's just like there's something about the softness in his voice and his face that's just like, what a gem this man, you know? I love him. All right, we will be back next week with episode seven. We're so excited for that one.

Oh, just a little bit of housekeeping because that episode is dropping during a week that we're off. we're going to record a little early. So if you did send us a brilliant email, we probably won't be able to read it for episode seven, but we'll be able to like sort of catch up when we record for episode eight. So we're recording that a little bit early just so that we can have the holiday week off. But we will have an episode next week and then we will see you again in the new year. All right. Bye.