The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Furious’ Episodes 1-4 Recap

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Joanna Robinson is joined by Yasi Salek to recap the first four episodes of ‘Furious,’ a Hulu crime thriller starring Emmy Rossum. Click here to get tickets for our live show at Televerse! (0:00) Intro (3:23) The score and needle drops (11:28) How the characters are portrayed (14:55) The story so far (17:49) Lola Petticrew’s performance (23:58) Casting the men (38:52) The complicated nature of the show (50:48) What will happen to Catherine Grace? Email us! [e-mail] Follow us on IG and TikTok! Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Host: Joanna Robinson Guest: Yasi Salek Producers: Kai Grady and Devon Renaldo Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles and Jacob Cornett #Furious #Hulu #EmmyRossum #Thriller #Drama #Recap #Breakdown #Reactions #PrestigeTV Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Prestige TV heads. We love reading your emails about various shows we cover, but we thought we might make this all a little bit more personal with our first ever prestige TV live recording. We'll be at the Televerse Festival here in Los Angeles on Friday, August 14th. Tickets are on sale now at Televerse.com, and we hope to see you there. So that's August 14th. You do need a pass to the festival to come see us, but Rob and I will be there, talk in television, our first ever live recording. Come join us. We'd love to see you. Thank you. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joida Robinson. I'm Yossi Salach. We are here to talk about episodes one through four of the Hulu Show Furious. So we want to start with a spoiler warning for that. If you have not watched Up Through episode 4 Flash Flood of Furious, go do that and then come back to listen to this podcast. Anything else I want to say. I just want to mention one of the lead actresses in this Lola Petty crew, who is amazing. We do know that they use they, them pronouns. So sorry, Lola. Throughout when we discuss it, we end up reverting back to she. pronouns, mostly I think, because we were just talking about the character, but we just wanted

to flag that and give a heads up apology. Lola, we love you. We know that you go by they, them. So we apologize if it gets a little cloudy in there when we're discussing. Catherine Grace, your character. Rob will be back. And if I know Rob, he will also love this show. So we will probably be covering this week to week.

This was sort of a surprise show that came out of nowhere for us. Who's like, nah, we told you. But I was surprised by it. We got a ton of emails from listeners and a ton of comments about covering it. I don't always listen to the watch because I never want to cannibalize Chris and Andy's takes. But when Chris Ryan texts me, are you watching this show? I will watch it.

And that is what happened with Furious. What was your experience coming to this show? Well, I'm a major Lola Petty Crew fan because I loved her on Say Nothing. And then we kind of struck up a friendship Not to drop a name directly onto this podcast I'm so sorry Mere Minutton They're like bring Rob back boo!

No, but she's so cool She's just a cool person who's really into music So we just bonded on that But so I knew about it Primarily because she was posting About like this is coming, this is coming And I was like oh Whatever it is I'm going to watch it

Because she's so incredible Of an actress And then Chris, Brian also texted me, are you watching? And I was like, oh, I haven't yet. But it's on my list. And then I did. And then you and I had brunch on Sunday. And I was like, come on the podcast. And I was like. And cram four episodes of television. Why not? Say no more, fam. I was like, watch TV during the day on a Monday as my job. Oh, tiny violent.

Pressy TV at Spotify.com is how you can email us about this show. We might come up with like a bespoke email for this show. We'll see. But for right now, prestige TV at Spotify.com, that is where you can demand that we watch cover certain shows. And guess what, guys, it worked for this one. We are going to talk kind of specifically about episode four. But I had texted you this morning. I was like, hey, heads up. I'm going to ask you about the score of the show because it's rather distinctive, especially in like the first few episodes. And then you were like, oh, cool, cool story. I actually want to talk about the needle drops. Well, both. Well, let's take advantage of having you, Yassie. I will, I said it on your podcast. I'll say it on my podcast. A music expert host of bandsplay.

And let's hear from you about the score and the music use in the show. What is your vibe? Right on the spot. Well, the score I found really compelling and cool. And it's like obviously a little bit offbeat. Not that the beat is off, but it's a little different. And I was trying to think about like why I responded to it so much. And I think it's like a more holistic thing of like how I'm really obsessed to. I can't wait to talk you about this. How I'm obsessed with how this show tonally is not what you might expect for a show that's dealing with abuse. Heavy issues. Heavy, you know, trauma, violence towards women, sexual abuse towards women.

And I loved that because it's a thing that I've thought about for a long time because I tend to like kind of dislike the depictions of the depictions of the don't love depictions of abuse against women in general. Full stop. But I find them to be often very like after school specially or very heavy-handed or like without nuance or you know what I mean. And so when you see someone, and I'm a huge Liz Maryweather fan. I just got to say up front like Liz Marriweather, I love you so much. I hope you make a thousand more television programs.

New Girl Forever. I was like, oh, of course, like a woman with this sensibility made this and she understands that like even if you experience this kind of trauma, which I would say probably like unfortunately a great deal of women have, you know that it's not just one note. You know that sometimes you crack a joke about it or some, like there's a million emotions around it. And I think to bring back to the score, I think the score gets that and like doesn't pummel you with like sad violins all the time or whatever.

Heavy string sort of placement. Yeah. What about you? What did you think about it? I don't know. It's just like an interesting. interesting sort of like vocalization. There's this sort of like panting breath sound and the and the bass. And it's just sort of like it's it's both like slightly sexual but then also kind of panicky,

which is a perfect sort of brew for what we're watching here. And you sort of like at any given moment it's deployed, it can give you a different flavor. It's very like adaptable that way. So I don't know. It's just very distinctive. It really got. to me. And like the first episode and I, you know, I talked to Chris about this or whatever, and Andy about this actually, but like I bumped a little

on Emmy Rossum's performance. And it's one of those things where and then I watched several more episodes and I realize that the character is posturing in a way that I was just sort of like, I watched Emmy Rossum for years on Shameless. I'm a big fan of her work. And I was like, wow, she's like, you know, her voice is down a couple registers.

Why does her hair look like that? Like, what is, what is, you know? Big, why does her hair look like that out, is for sure? What is going on? And then it's just sort of like, oh, she's putting on this sort of hard front demeanor. And she's like, no matter what, like a tough person, you know what I mean, in a way that I like. But like, I was just sort of like, it felt like slightly bad acting from an actor that I think is fantastic. And then when you peel back the layers a bit more and you realize that she herself is posturing.

And then I was just like, wow, I really love this performance so much. Totally. I feel like they did like, kind of, I don't know if they did it on purpose, but like a bit of like a funny bait and switch with the beginning of the first episode. Because I felt a little bit the same way about just the cop stuff in general. I was like, okay, we're like laying in a little thick, like, Scoot McNary's character. It was amazing. I love Scoot. But like the first time you see him and he's like, don't you miss this?

The smell of a dead body in a hallway? And I was like. But then I was like, oh, like they tricked us into being like, this is just one of those boiler. play it like, and then you realize it's not that at all. And it's so cool when you start to like realize, oh, this is like so much more than what is on the surface. I'm also slightly, like, I love this show. I love this show.

I am slightly confused by Scoot's accent because he's, I think he's giving like Boston cop a bit. But like. But maybe he transferred. But I thought they like all grew up together. Is it Lenny Briscoe? No, it's, I'm going to SVU. Who is the SVU? I don't watch SVU. Excuse me? I know.

I know. It's okay. We can still be And also Lenny Briscoe is from regular honor. Richard Belzer's character, who is, like, famously on homicide, which is that not a Boston? Could be. Okay. I'm fired already from the TV program. No, no, no. I'm exposing that I don't watch police procedural.

I'm just saying, you know, sometimes you get, you put in for a transfer. That's true. One can transfer. On the other side, you know, Lola Petacru, who is someone you know, an actor I really admire. Rob and I covered Say Nothing. We loved her in that show so much. she's incredible. She's Irish. She's doing an American accent. It doesn't bother me. Like, you know, it's like slightly funky and it doesn't bother me because her whole thing is a performance. And so that all works for me. I think this sort of, and I do want to come back to the music, but I think this two-hander of we're with a cop or with a serial killer, very killing Eve. Like, what Lola's doing in this reminds me a lot of what Jody Comer did in season one of killing Eve, which was just like an incredible calling card for him. actor and I just like loved it. So this sort of like, we're with two sides or, or I don't know if you

ever watch the Jillian Anderson show The Fall, like we're just sort of like in with Jamie Dorn and Serial Killer and Gillian Anderson cop. So the show is split across these two perspectives and in a way that I just like I really enjoy and I just, I don't know, I'm just so excited to talk about this show. Tell me, tell me more about the movie. Oh, it was just a couple of needle drops that I like I totally notice. I noticed Chris, obviously, would notice it too, because when I listened, he pointed out too. But, like, the Rob Delaney character, that's episode one, right, where she makes her way to... First meet him.

Yeah. And he's, like, Mr. Like, you know, blown Coke and, like, I'm a lawyer. And he puts on a geese song. And I was like, oh, that's so funny. Because that's not just, like, incidental. Like, he totally is, like, it's like the kind of thing a guy who, like, thinks he's cooler than he is and thus has access to like the most low-hanging fruit of what is like cool music because it's like risen to the top of like NPR and pitwork or whatever would put on.

And I like, I was like, oh, there's a ball knower in this writer's room or or this music supervision room. It's also really interesting because like the, I'm just a boy whose intentions are good. Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood. Like that lyric is on the nose in that episode or like, have you seen her? tell me have you seen her in episode four. But these are just like killer songs and it fits the mood perfectly and is really good. There was like another, there's a Fontaine's DC song also, Boys in the Betterland.

I want to say maybe it's at the cop bar that comes on. And then the, to your point about on the nose, when the Cass Elliott song drops, like it's getting better after like they're like, oh, it's so good. Like, it's Jake Lacey's character and Scoot McNary's character. I'm like, good to be working together again, you know? And it's like, clearly it's not good to be working together again. I like that the music is... Yeah.

I think music supervision is endlessly fascinating to me. And obviously there's so many ways you can deploy songs. It can just be for emotional purposes. It can just be, like, oh, I love that song. But I feel like this was, like, really intentional in a way that I enjoyed. A lot of people are watching this show. And a lot of people are really excited about this show. And I've been encountering some people who are, who are like,

Am I supposed to like Lola's character, Catherine Grace? Not Alice, though maybe some people are asking that question. And I actually, frankly, don't care if people like female characters. I think that is just a really worn out question to ask personally. But, like, my temptation is to just always be on the side of women who kill. That's just something about me. And so when she's killing these guys, I'm like, I'm sure there's a reason. And I will find a good reason.

I don't know about it. But like what the show is doing with her, where are her boundaries? So this is a question. A question that Chris posed to me about Scoot McNary's character, Danny Kelly, the most Irish cop character, his name of all time. You know, he was like, he was like, this is a guy so good that I'm worried he won't survive the season. That's what Chris said to me. And it made me very anxious. But I also have this other fear of this is a guy.

so good, I'm worried he's going to disappoint me. And that's like, that's an energy I bring in. And in episode four, we have the character of Nora, who is, like, presented as, like, troubled and, you know, loves to drink, like, from episode one is, like, I'm drunk, like, all this sort of stuff like that. I'm obsessed with her. But, like, I also am obsessed with her, but disappoints me in this episode four because, like, her name is on a cold case and she takes Alice off the case, you know? I love all this. though, because it's like, it's almost like the show dares to ask the question. What if women are also people?

Right. What if women are also just people who are flawed and fucked up and have their own agendas and are afraid of consequences and do not always act purely and for the most moral reasons? And that's like kind of a through line of the show for everything. It's around Catherine, it's around Nora. So it's maybe probably hopefully going to be presented with Alice. like every character so far, it's like, yeah, no one's hands are clean. I think that's true. I think it's interesting when they're like, Nora is behaving away.

Like, I don't need her hands to be clean, but she disappoints me in that she sort of betrays Alice at the end of this episode. Do you know what I mean? And that that disappoints me. I'm not like out on the character at all. I'm just sort of like, oh, I'm just saying that that's a tension. Like it's not I'm worried about who Catherine's going to kill next because I'm just sort of like, it's going to be a guy who abused young women.

Like, that's okay. Or helped facilitate the abuse of young women. You know, like, Campbell Scott, I'm... I was so excited. I was like, I heard his voice. I was like, that's my dog. Yeah. Look at him singles.

Campbell Scott's here, but I'm just like, if he doesn't make it, fine with me. I don't care if he makes it. Like, whatever's coming to him, I'm pretty sure he deserves it. Yeah. But, like, to have Nora, disappointed me almost hurts more than anything else. To have Marshall's mom turn on Alice, to your point. like these women inside of here. And the young woman we meet in the first episode when they're in the hospital room

and they're looking at this young woman who they were going to have testify, Nora's like, oh, she was a trafficker. She's a trafficker. So like the way in which women are involved across the board in these abuses, as well as all the horrible men that we meet on the show for sure. I guess maybe for people that don't know anything about this show, should we tell them sort of like the top one of what it's about? I guess I should have at the top of the episode.

But I just sort of assume that if you're here to talk about, to listen to a podcast about Furious, then. But if you want to, you want to give the big picture? But it's like broadly, right. It's about a cop, on one hand, a cop who has left the force due to an unfortunate circumstance with her other cop boyfriend who beat the shit out of her. When she did not even, she didn't lodge even a formal complaint. She simply mentioned it. I love that you say unfortunate circumstances beat the shit out of her. And so she was like, okay, I'm going to become like a baby FBI.

And then sort of through some circumstances, her desire is to be in sex crimes, through some circumstances, gets involved in the case of these two murders that she's able to link. And the murders we are seeing are perpetrated by Lillopetti Grue's character, who's, I guess, we don't really know at the first. Yeah. And that's like, then we're all in. But you nailed it. Thank you so much. I feel like I probably missed some extremely important points, but no, that's good. Yeah, I just think that like the, I think the points of tension are really interesting to me because it's not the murder.

Is, like, is Catherine going to hurt the daughter of, you know, this guy who she has decided deserves to die? But what does the daughter know? Does she know too much? Like, where is her morality there? Is that woman in danger? Is the guy that she's taking care of this character, Alden? Is he in danger? Because, like, I love him.

Steve Way. Really, really fun. But, like, is he in danger? Like, should I be scared for him? Or, like, inside of this episode when he says, I want to be your boyfriend. And she's, like, I can feel my fingertips again. Like, she has a, like, seemingly genuine, positive. Right.

I am, I guess, pushing through some of the physical traumatic. response that I've had to what's happened to me in this moment. See, okay, I wanted to ask you that. And maybe I misunderstood it. I thought she couldn't feel her fingers because they like burned off her like fingerprints or something. I think it's a true. Oh, it's a traumatic response.

I think so. I think it goes back to in that first episode when she's in sort of like the group, the abuse shelter and she's talking to the young woman and she's like, you can just pretend it didn't happen to you that he didn't exist, that your body doesn't exist. It's like this disassociating thing. The same thing that she kind of coaches Rob Delaney's character. through. She's like, I just would look at my leg and say those aren't my legs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my

interpretation. And so, like, in feeling her fingertips again, it's just sort of like she's not undone the trauma, but just sort of like push through to the other side of this trauma response that she had was my take on it. I'm just, I'm so blown away by her performance. I mean, again, I know I'm a little biased, but like, I just feel like this, she does the smallest things with her face where you see like that she it's part of the reason that I think you're right to be a little fearful for Alden because she's like a master manipulator. That's what she's had to become survive. And you see it like she's looking at one of the male characters that she's manipulating and her face is one way and the minute they turn away, her face completely shifts. Oh yeah.

Like completely goes into this other face, you know? And you're like, wow, like you're really turning it on, turning it off, like moving through the world world in order to like, like survive. When she's on the date in episode four with Blanchard. With tinfish guy. Sorry, I'm just really into tin fish. I was like, perfect. This like, talking about Mom Donnie's free bus plan, bisexual, tinfish loving, drinking cloudy organic wine, like absolute douchebag.

I know this guy perfectly. Very familiar. The look on her face to your point of like, not just when he looks away. but just sort of like she has this way of a smile that's a grimace that is like so funny and so perfect. She also has, you know, to go back to sort of the Liz Maryweather as creator, new girl of it all, she has this sort of like almost whimsical, quirk-alicious like manic pixie dream girl energy to her that is like fun and funny and terrifying. When the guy's dying, Caleb Easton is dying in the first episode and she's on the stairs with him. and he's like about to die.

And she's like, I don't like the sound of your, I don't like listening to you, but I do love your smile. It's like, you know, and she does this like little, almost like Alexis Rose from Schitt's Creek, like little like boop face to him, you know? And it's just like, it's scary and funny and genius.

And the way in which she is in this state of arrested development, but to your point, a master manipulator. And the way in which, I mean, the show is not making it unsodeled. the way in which Alice and Catherine are in a very, we're not so different you and I space. The way that Alice can in any interrogation tell a lie to get what she needs out of the person that she's interrogating.

And everyone notices it even like... Right. You didn't grow up in a foster home. Even like Frank Choi, the FBI agent who does not like her. Played by Rob Yang, who I love from Succession. He's so funny. It's amazing. I have some notes on him.

But like for him to be like, you know, she pisses me off, but she's really good. You know, and she's just like, she can play the roles that she needs to play to get what she needs. And it is exactly what Catherine is doing only with more murder. Just a little more murder. Just a touch more murder. Yeah. Well, I think it's like that's so brilliant because it, for me it's like ties back into like and maybe not, hashtag not all women will relate. But like I think that's like a core like thing about being a woman in the world if you want to succeed slash survive.

Unfortunately, that's part of the game, you know? And some women aren't willing to do it, and my hat is off to them. But, like, the rest of us, like, that's how you get through. That's how you get by. That's how you get ahead, you know, because the other doors are not open. And if you don't learn that, you know. And I have not really seen a show or, I'm sure I have. But, like, I can't remember the last time I've seen because it's a negative quality.

Right. Right. You're supposed to judge it. Like, and you're like, oh, but I also think that like, to add to that you have, in this episode, episode four, you have Hal is Campbell Scott's character. His son is Blanchard.

Blanchard just like the name is amazing. So perfect. And then his wife is played by Janelle Maloney from West Wing, etc. But like a perfect... And leftovers. Yes, in leftovers, more importantly. A perfect sort of like waspy performance.

performance. Similarly, you cast Hope Davis as like the iconic wasp sort of situation. Like, we're just missing Laura Linney, honestly, for like the trifecta. The Holy Wasp Trinity here. But like, the way in which, um, Dinele Maloney's character, whose name I don't have in front of me, but like, the way in which they're too liberal and too polite to like kick her out of their house is so funny to me. But then of course, like, you know, when we find out that Hal is part of this family, you know that they are somehow deeply entrenched in this horrible web of sex trafficking and abuse. But there is this sort of pretense of liberal niceness that is part of this family is part of this like New York liberal fakeness that's in here. I love it.

It's really, I mean, I know it's like not like, you know, reinventing the wheel or it's not like not a little bit obvious. but I do think it's genius how it's like really up with the times, like, these sort of like sideways glances at the Epstein of it all, you know? Oh, yeah. And a liberal, you know, like the idea that like there are these like pillars of Mom Dony's New York society, but their hands are just as dirty. They're in the picture. They have a 15-year-old in their lap, you know, is like.

The way, in the interrogation scene when, when Hope Davis's character, Emma, Emma Euston, when she's like, you know, we're doing a charity to raise awareness for my father's cancer. And Alice is like, oh, that's amazing. That's just amazing, you know. Or watching the video that she watches of, you know, this other charity event that they've done. And earlier in the season and watching Jay Easton like sort of hand this award off to these young girls. And Alice can just clock what is off and what is wrong. They're like body language is slightly off.

Yeah. I want to talk to you about the casting of the men in this show because we were talking a little bit before we started recording about Jake Lacey who plays Marshall, Alice's ex-boyfriend. They were childhood sweethearts. He beat the shit of her. She is now forced to work with him. You know, Chris was saying like, oh, it's such countercasting to have Jake Lacey show up,

this, like, good guy. And we were talking before we started recording about. how this is like a microgenerational reaction to Jake Lacey who did play the like the consummate good guy for a long time in Hollywood. And then he did White Lotus. And ever since he did White Lotus, he is actually like played the most raging douchebags and scary assholes. And so like I think for a lot of people, they're like, oh, Jake Lacey's here. He just is a jerk.

And for other people who saw high fidelity or obvious child or all these other things that Jake Lacey did before, it's almost like the casting that Emerald Funnel did in promising a woman where she like got all these nice guys. to play these abusers. But I do think she's doing that, Liz Maryweather's doing that elsewhere when you have Rob Delaney. Totally. The Internet's boyfriend. Love the Internet's best boyfriend,

funniest guy in the world. Love Rob Delaney. Love him. Campbell Scott is here. I love Campbell Scott. Yeah. But I know that I'm going to find out that he has been up to some scary, skanky shit.

And so it's just like that kind of, I don't know that I would put Jake in that bucket, but maybe, but I would definitely put, when Rob Delaney showed up, I was like, this is just a perfect use of Rob Delaney. Yeah, it was wonderful. And also giving him a daughter. Because it's truly one of my...

It's a girl dad. The things that make my blood boil the most where it's like, I understand because I have a daughter. And I was like, okay, so it took you bearing child to understand the humanity of women. As a father of daughters, you know? And so if you don't have daughters, that's fine. You just beat and kill them. That's okay. But now I understand, now that I made one.

I get it. And this is also maybe like a very specific House of R thing. But the actor who's playing Jay Easton, who seems like the biggest bad of them all, played Father Lantern on Daredevil, who's just sort of like this kindly priest figure. You know what I mean? Who like, I don't know how many Furious watchers also watched all of Daredevil on Netflix. But like, I did. And so he's been in a lot of other things. But like that's another guy where I was just sort of like, I'm used to feeling very warmly

towards him and I'm just like, whatever you did, sir, I am horrified to find out about it. From the producers of Super Troopers and Super Troopers 2 comes, you guessed it. Broken Lizard and their rowdy patrol squad returned to the scene of the crime. In Super Troopers 3, the mustaches are thicker, the maple syrup stickier, and the pranks crazier than ever. Buckle up for the funniest comedy of the summer. Super Troopers 3, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. I'm so obsessed with this show and what it's doing with the trope of the perfect victim.

Tell me. Well, because I think that's a thing, right? Like, it's like you want a victim to be perfect. You want them to not have done anything bad or do anything bad because then you can morally justify anything they do do. But one thing I wanted to ask you about, it's like, so far. far so good, right? Except that she clearly murdered the woman that ran the shelter, that she blackmailed and coerced into helping her procure drugs and wigs and cleaning products. And that woman, you know, I don't know if she did deserve it. I mean, it's a gray area

because she seduced her and she was like in a position of power. So like you could, but it's like, oh, like, what about that one? You know? She's, she's, she's, still is like... When she's asked the question, she's like, do you think you're a good person? Yeah. You know what I mean?

I do. I mean, that's the thing, is like, where is her line? It's unclear. You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like, I think for a lot of people who are not me watching at home,

they're like, hey, she shouldn't kill anyone. And I'm like, she should kill all those days. That's how I feel about it. Certainly the first one. She should have disemboweled him. But I think that like that woman who worked at the shelter, I think that's an interesting. question. To the earlier conversation of like, you know, can women be shitty too on this show?

Absolutely. Marshall's mom again, like pouring honey and then just sort of like turning on her. Terrifying. And all the rest. Yeah, this woman, I mean, let's hope that this is the first person that she ever had sex with at the shelter. But like, these are abused, scared women. And yes, Catherine Grace did like seduce her. Yeah. Like put the moves on her. but like one should, you know, I don't think she should have died, but like, you know. Yeah. So, but that is like a, that's a serious fucked up thing to do. That's, again, why I think it's great, right? Like, also that victim's not perfect.

It's just like this continuous thing of like, what's, where does your responsibility lie? How big is the spectrum of badness? Yes. You know, and who deserves what. Yeah. And back to Nora's character who, like, even though, like, of course, that was disappointing because you're like, oh, you're impeding, you know. But you're punishing Alice. You're making, here's the thing.

My read of this. It's just the end of the episode. We don't know what's going to happen in the next episode. I don't imagine that Alice is just off the case for the season. There's like another half of the season. But, like, for her to say, to make Alice feel like it's her fault. Right. You know.

But she's pushed up against the wall, right? I think they did a really good job of, for me anyways, I was like, oh, this shitty male boss, again, there's always like another layer, the shitty male boss who was awful to her. Yeah. And who, I mean, or she's a drunk, I would be too if I had to look at child porn all day, babe. I would be at the office all day just to get through. And this man basically threatened her. Oh, no, he definitely did.

He threatened. And it's like, so she's like, do I lose my career? No, I mean, I. Or do I, like, act on the fly? Again, like, what do I do to, like, survive? I understand why she did what she did. I'm just saying, like, I would hope that instead of making this young woman who is, like, under her, like, tutelage, feel like she fucked up by defending herself against her shitty abusive boyfriend, she gaslights her into, like, saying, you fucked up. Now, to your point, I understand why she did it, like, because she was threatened and she's terrified to see her name on this case and is.

is going to come back to bite her and is it going to bite her boss? Well, then, like, you know, destroy her. Expose her alcoholism? I just, like, I was just like, oh, man, I just really wish you two were in it together. And I mean, like, from the very beginning, Nora has been, you know, teaching Alice, but also derisive towards Alice. And that's great.

That's, you know, it's a complicated character. That's great. This is just the moment where I was just sort of like, you're gaslighting this woman who like every shitty guy around her, except for perfect angel baby Scoot McNary, I'm so scared. But like every single guy around her has made her feel this way. And now you're just hopping on over to the patriarchy side to make her feel that way as well. And again, I think it's cool. No, I mean, it is.

It's good. I like, it's good storytelling. But yes. And I can be emotionally disappointed in the character at the same time. I'm like, oh, it's so cool. It's been so easy to make this like, that's my mentor. That's my homegirl. You know, she's going to put me.

under her wing and take care of me. I don't mean that it needs to be like sunshine and lollipops. I just think there's like, you're like, you're always trying to figure out where the line is. Yeah. And it's just sort of like there's the like, in episode one, Nora telling her like, oh, were you abused, poor you? Like whatever. You're like, oh, that's shitty, but like she's tough but fair. And then this just teetered over into tough but unfair in a way that I was just sort of like,

oh, I was hoping there was a line here. Yeah. And she just sort of like, you know, drunkenly reeled across it. I'm interested to see, like, will she come back from it? Right. Will she, like, make up for it? You know, like, yeah. Yeah.

It's, I guess what I'm saying is just like, I'm, I love every subverted expectation because I'm, I'm not used to it, you know? And I, and I, there was like a couple of things. These are, these are like, I was wondering if you clocked them because I was just like, yes, I know this thing. Like when she's, Alice is in, I think one of the first meetings with, um, the detective Frank Choi who, clearly makes it extremely clear that he hates her and doesn't think she's good enough. And he says to her, you lucked out, you're a baby agent, you really lucked out. And her, like, again, the microacting on her face where it's like, how many times have you been told you're just lucky? You know, like, you don't belong here. Yeah. You're lucky. Right. They earned it, but you're lucky,

you know? And it's like feminism, the hat, pink pussy hat has right on my head. But I'm like, I was, these little things that I was just like, oh, like, I just hope and imagine, like, a bunch of women watching this and being like, I know him. Yeah. I work with that guy. Like, I've seen that guy before. I've seen that look before. The Blanchard date moment when he was like, I love that you're a former sex worker and you advocate for sex work and stuff like that and then calls her a slut in bed. And he's like, sorry, I can't come unless I say that.

Like, sorry, respectfully. Yeah. Or like, or her. response, which I love, again, unexpected, where you would think she would manipulate it in a different way, but he goes, how did that make you feel? And she goes really angry. And it's like, oh, you were just honest. You know? And he was like, you know, like, it's just, she's like ally. What can I say? Any other microaggression moments that you want to call out while you have your pink pussy hat on? This, I don't know this is a microaggression. This just made me laugh really hard. And I wondered if anyone else or if you laughed at it. it. When they're, when Choi and Jake Lacey's character are watching Alice and Irish cop, can't remember anyone's names, you know, talk to Hope Davis. Yeah. And he gets her, she gets her to admit something or say something. And Troy goes, ho! Like, he's like so excited. And the

look that Jake Lacey gives him, he's like, I just couldn't stop laughing. I was like, that was, because his reaction was really bizarre. It was to something like so awful that the woman said. And he was like, Harr. And I was like, Warrior should not be like, you know, Arsenio Hall,

who, about this? No, I mean, the show finds ways to engage in, and like, I,

the dropout, which is Liz Maryweather's other show, in addition to dying for sex, but about Elizabeth Holmes, that one also found

a lot of ways to be, like, quite funny inside of a really like upsetting story that it's telling. And so she, the way in which she's been able to take this new girl's sensibility and take it into these darker corners of our reality is just completely wild to me.

And to go back to Scoot McNary's character, Danny Kelly and Alice, like, they have a will-they, why am I rooting for a will-they-won-they inside of this like horrible sex crime murder show? I know. But I'm like, can these two crazy kids work? it out? You know, will they survive this torrential downpour inside of this episode, you know? You made me think of another layer that I'm like, oh, this is so interesting, like, to the point of, like, is this Alice character likable, right? She pays, not pays, maybe she pays them, I don't know. She meets guys on dating apps and has them come beat her up because she likes that, you know?

And, like, it's not entirely explained why, or if that predates her abuse or if that's a direct result of her abuse, but, like, complicated. And you can, God bless Danny Kelly when he, when she tells him, and he's just like, I just want you to be happy. He's like, is that what you need, is that what you want? And he doesn't see him being like, I don't think I can do that. You know what I mean? He's like, I don't understand it at all, but he isn't like, are you insane? Yeah, he's not yucking yums. You know, he's not yucking yums. And obviously, the yum is very complicated. It's like, who, I just, at every, every turn, I'm like, wow, like, someone really thought about this. someone is, you know what show it kind of reminded me a little of?

I may destroy you. Yeah. That was maybe the first time I saw, that show, speaking of, absolutely destroyed me. Yeah. But that was one of the first times I experienced that in a show where I was like, oh, like, this is, this is. Because as much as it's kind of like a little hard to watch things like SFU or whatever, it's all very glossy and fake, you know. in a way that I... Well, the...

Isn't the idea behind... So I don't watch... Not fake, but you know... I don't watch Law & Order. It's tidy. Like, the reason that a lot of people love procedurals, my understanding, is that like...

And especially procedures like SVU or something like that where something horrific happens, but it's going to be resolved within the hour. And there's not time to characterize the victim, like, complicate that.

Yeah. It's going to be resolved. You're going to watch this horrible thing, a murder or something like that, but then these detectives who you're with are going to solve it in an hour and you don't even have to remember what happened last week in order to like feel the safety of that at the end of the day. And, you know, similar to like a lot of

people I love and respect and admire love murder podcasts. It's not for me, but like it's something that brings them comfort and safety to hear that sort of like, what is it? I think this idea of safe scary, right? Where it's just sort of like you feel, you hear something scary, but you feel while you're hearing it. And so it just sort of like makes the scary world that you navigate feel safer. And so...

And this is not that. This is not that. It's broke containment. I wish I had said it in the top of the show, but... I wish I had recap the show. We have a lot of wishes. But I want to like point out that like if you've experienced

sexual assault or trauma or like anything in this realm, this show is not easy to watch. You know, like it's enjoyable. in so many ways, but it's also like, the same as to me if I may destroy you. It's like, you're going to have to think about stuff that maybe you wouldn't have to think about when you're watching another show that deals with that because it confronts you with that stuff by like kind of mirroring back, if that makes sense. Absolutely. So I do wonder like how that is going to,

like, it's a different experience to watch that. And, you know, I don't have statistics in front of me. I don't want to be a Grey's Anatomy episode where they're like, hey, Joanna, did you you know that, you know, 72% of women have been assaulted or whatever, but probably 72% of women. It's higher than you think. And I think it's, you know, we were talking about this before. We started recording this idea of like, yeah, you can watch this show through the lens of I've experienced something similar to this. You can watch this show through the lens of I'm a woman moving through the world. And so there are aspects of this that I'm going to understand. And then you can watch this show as like a man who hasn't experienced any of that, but this is a compelling story that you're watching. And there are things that are going to sort of like pass you by as there are.

are anytime you watch a show that is like dealing with hyper-specific experiences that are not your own. I have that happen to me all the time. But it's still a very compelling, well-done, not, I don't think it's a subtle show at all. I would not accuse it of being a subtle show. But to go back to your Grey's Anatomy Comp, I don't feel like I'm being preached to at any point. And being preached to, even if it's about a subject matter you care a lot about, can be so off-putting or just like really shut you down. But what this is is compelling, occasionally humorous, sexy, exciting, violent, dangerous, good storytelling. Visually amazing. Like, some of, like, all of a sudden, she pulls those wigs off.

She does. And then wears those cool masks. Like, she makes the killing look very sexy. I mean, that's, and there are stickers involved as well. Because she's mentally 15, as you pointed out earlier. Like, that's another recurring theme, right? This woman is... She's 30, I think, right? Ostensibly, I think they did the math. It was 15 years ago, 14 years.

Yeah, she's 29. Right. But she's obviously not 29. I just prefer this. This just feels so much more honest to me than like the recent spate of Mommy Murder shows is what I call them, which is just sort of like,

they're insanely popular. It's all echoes off of the Big Little Lies phenomenon. Okay. Just sort of this like Beach Reed Mommy Murder. They drop almost weekly on like Peacock or Amazon or something like that. It's like a rich woman whose life isn't as good as she thinks it is. Right.

There's just like, you know, maybe Jake Lacey has betrayed her in some way. That happened to shift from succession. You know what I mean? Like this, these shows exist. I think they're really poorly done in terms, for the most part, in terms of like how the twist and turns unveil themselves. And for this show, for the question of like, who did what to whomst, not really being the point at all of the show.

It's not trying to shock and surprise you when you, like, find out about Isabelle and her connections to Catherine and, you know, as we do in this episode, whatever, however the case continues to reveal itself, that is not the shock. There's no shock value to that in the show. When we meet Jay Easton, we're like, that dude did something horrible. I can just tell. Yeah. And Hope Davis knows about it.

I'm not surprised. You know what I mean? Like, all of that stuff, I'm just not. it's not trying to fool me or surprise me. It's trying to engage me in the real ramifications, the real damage that this does. And then what are the choices you make after that? You know, Nora says something in episode one about like basically hurt people, hurt people. Right. Which, which I know a lot of people who have experienced abuse in their life push back on that because they're like, we fucking hate that idea of hurt people, hurt people. Because then there's like an

assumption in that just because you've experienced abuse of whatever stripe at some point in your life, that you are now like a dangerous person. But Nora, when she's talking about it, she's like, let's talk about the choices people make at the end of the day around this. Yeah. And so. I thought it was good because she kind of, if I remember correctly, she followed up with something like, and actually a lot of these terrified girls never murder anyone. Yeah, they don't murder. She says, she's like, and I thought they did a really great job. Like, they drop in that little bit when Alice and.

dating Kelly go to the foster home and the woman is like she was weird you know like there was something there was already something like she was always a little off so it's like okay like not all her people turn into like avenging murderers like serial killers but you you pair a few things together like a girl that's already probably a little mentally you know unsound and a heap this much abuse and trauma and you take her best friend away, like, it's game over, babe. She's going to go and going to go to Killing Spree. She's going to acquire some fentanyl, a few not amazing wigs. The shot of when she takes the red wig off, the sort of Russian nesting doll wigs,

like you meet her in the blonde wig, and then her commitment to the bit where she has this red wig that she wears when she's like Ginny, right? And she takes a shower. One point with the wig. I was like, I'm seeing what's happening. It's happening right now. I guess she couldn't come back and be like, I have a new hair, you know? Right. What else do you want to talk about that we haven't hit?

I really, really appreciated the daughter aspect, even though I think it could have been cheap and easy. But I thought, like, again, I know it's like, it's not a subtle show. But, like, starting with the, like, my dad won't let me cut my hair because he wants me to have a boyfriend. and then that last scene where she's holding scissors and all her hair is on the floor. And it's unclear. Right. Did she do that herself? Because she's been made aware of what a monster her father was or did, you know, did Catherine force her?

Right. And like, my arm hair is standing. So I'm like, that was really cool. Like that's a really, like, what is it? And I still don't know. It's, again, it's not over explaining. It's not, but it's like doing a glance at like is the most important thing in the world, the male gaze, is the most important thing in the world.

important thing in the world to be attractive to men, you know, at 15. Yeah, I just, um, the way she takes all the time to curl the hair and then it's chopped off. And it's unclear, it is unclear whether or not Catherine did the chopping or this girl did the chopping, but it's the, it's, Catherine's sort of like intent and impact that that be the end result. Totally. Let's curl your hair and make it look exactly how your dad wants it to look before it's all gone. It's all gone. And the sense that is, you get that when they interrogate her that she is protecting her. Oh, yeah, that she's protecting Catherine, you know? Absolutely. And they're like, she's going to be so traumatized because she's

this murder or whatever. And it's like, actually like, you're like, no, she. She gave me this photo to give to you. Yeah. And in terms of like a cat and mouse idea, this idea that like, Catherine knew this girl would be interrogated, gave her this photo and said, give it to the cops, and then finds out from Campbell Scott and the elevator that the cops not only have the photo, so that worked. That works. Yeah. but are asking the right questions about it. And she gets this little smile on her face. Like, it's working.

Like, I'm going on this killing spree. But I'm also leaving a breadcrumb trail for the cops so that hopefully they will, you know, and that's what, you know, the question is like, are we doing what she wants us to do by, like, focusing on Jay Easton instead of her? But I'm like, who's the bigger problem? Right. Maybe my morals are fucked up. Well, I wanted to ask you, like, do you, because, sorry, I don't know if you do this on this show or if I'm also very dumb and don't understand. things, but like, are you speculating based on the pregnancy, based on the Jane Doe that

is found that we're meant to understand is her best friend who was pregnant? Isabel. Are we meant to speculate that that was Jay Easton's child or a man in power's child? And that's why she was murdered. And then that's also why it was buried. Because the implication, which I didn't completely grasp it, was that, like, this case went nowhere because that high up above Nora didn't... Ed George.

Ed George didn't take it anywhere. And like, why didn't he take it anywhere? Because you can do DNA test on a fetus. It could be the pregnancy and the baby or it could just be like inconvenient dead girl. Right. Like, we don't have time to solve this Jane Doe. There's a million of them.

No, I don't know. I don't know. We don't have time to say... We don't want to connect this Jane Doe to the circumstances of her death, whatever they were. Do you know what I mean? Right.

So it could be either of it. The pregnancy threw me off because I was like, oh, who's the father? Oh, yeah. And that will come out. You know, like, you solve this crime and they'll be like, who is the father? And they'll be like, oh, it's an 85-year-old billionaire or whatever, or his son or someone else that should not be the father of a 15-year-old's child, which is nobody. Campbell Scott. Rob Delaney.

Some bad dude. Some bad dude. What I think is interesting, so this is based on an 80s film Black Widow, loosely based. And I was, like, looking at the plot of that movie. And in that movie, the killer, the, you know, the woman who disguises herself with wigs and accents and all this sort of stuff to meet and murder rich dudes, she's just doing that to get their money. Like, that's the motivation. And she's being chased by a female cop. But, like, that's her motivation.

Her motivation is, I want this money. So I'm going to. She's just a straight up, like, grifting criminal. Grifting killer. Who uses her sexuality in order to entrap her victims. Right. And so the idea of, like, why do women kill? Why do women murder?

Like, what is the motivation behind this Catherine's killing spree? And the fact that it is sort of like the rot at the center of society and the way in which women, young women, etc., are just, again, Norris says this in the first episode. Like, we, whoever the we are, want women to be sort of like raped and killed and go and just be quiet and go away. You know what I mean? And like, that's what a lot of storytelling has been. And it's sort of like, what if they become a Medusa instead? We'll become a Gorgon instead. You know, like, what if there is like, you know.

I love all the Greek myth. Oh, yeah. When she's like, because I'm very smart and went to a really good school. So that's why. Yeah. But yeah. So to alter the motivation and give this much more interesting and upsetting motivation for this character is one of a million improvements upon the loosely based source material that they made here.

There is that part where Rob being made here. There is that part where Rob being kind of like is like, oh, well, isn't it for the money? Like in the very beginning. You remember that? Yeah. And she's like, no. Yeah. And he's like really pushing it.

He's like, you can't understand. He's like, why would a 15, she's a prostitute. And you're like, a 15 year old who is sex trafficked is a prostitute? Right. I don't know if that's what we would call her. Right. Right. But it just has no, cannot differentiate between a victim.

And, you know, it's like. immediately into the criminal bucket. I'm really worried about Alden. I feel very protective of him and I hope he's okay. She does seem to genuinely care about him. No, I think she cares about him, but like where does the rubber meet the road in terms of like if he finds out more than she wants him to know. He was poking around a little. He was like, you know, it's the same reason I was worried for Rob Delaney's daughter where I'm just sort of like, I think her instinct is to not hurt this girl.

Yeah. But when this girl is like, hey, what the fuck is going on with all the electronics in the oven? What's happening here? Yeah, you know. Where is that line? And I don't have a grasp of it. To your point about, like, killing the woman who worked in the sort of the women's shelter. Yeah.

You know, that line is really fuzzy to me. And so that puts me, the viewer on the back foot of just sort of, like, what is the choice that's going to be made here? I would like to believe that she genuinely cares. I believe she generally cares about Alden. But does she care about him more than she cares about her mission to, like, be able to successfully kill all these people? Yeah, I'm not sure. It's a fact that I'm very fascinated to see what happens. happens in general with the character because she's already, like, there's been, like, two

allusions to the fact that she does not care if she loves or dies. Like, she flat out says it. She flat out says it. Yeah. Emma's character. Alice. Alice says it also. She's like, this is a suicide mission. Like, this is not, this is like, she is going towards death. Like, she just wants to do her thing. So here's my question at the end of the day. Again, my morals might be really messed up because I'm just like, kill all the bad men and I'm fine with it. But, like, what do you want from the end of this show? Is it, from the end of the season, if this is more than a season of television, I don't know. But like, do you want her, does she get to survive the season?

Does she get to get away with what she did? Do you want her in jail? Do you have a sense of, like, where you feel like this character should or where you personally, Yassi, want her to end up? This is so dark, but I kind of look at this character and I'm like, this character's dead already. Like, she had no shot. Like, I don't, I'm not sure I believe that there's some, like, happy ending waiting

out there for her if she only can find love or whatever. Like her soul is corroded. Her spirit is broken. She is not a functioning person. Like, she's, her eyes are crazy. Like, she's watching these trauma healing YouTube's while doing sex work. Like, it's, this is like the best I can hope for is she goes to an institution and has, like, a nice end of days. Okay.

So that's what you want. I don't know if that's what I want. Is institutionalized. Can you see that's a cool ending? Like, just, like, sitting with her stickers and the institution, allowed to be 15 until the day she dies? I find that I don't know. And I think that's a – again, it's like – that's more interesting to me than the, like, unveiling the mystery of the breadcrumbs that leads back to Jay Easton and, you know, all of that sort of stuff is like, I think you're right. I think it's an interesting question.

Like, can she be okay? Does she deserve to be okay? Do I want her to be okay? I find that I am unsure. And that puts me in a really interesting position while I'm watching it. Yeah. So. I wonder, I guess my last question for you is like how, and I guess you kind of just answered it,

but like, how interested are you or how much do you want some sort of like twist to come out involving the J. Easton of it all? Like, you know, like, oh, the breadcombers lead back and there's some like crazy twist that we weren't, didn't see coming. Or is that just not. Yeah. But I wouldn't put it past a show in 2026. to do that. But yeah, that he's just a nice old man with cancer and he never did anything wrong in his life. Hope Davis's character is the Spengali. She's the Heidi Flyse of the entire organization of teenagers. Like, she didn't flinch.

Glenn Maxwell, you know what I mean? Like that's a character, you know. They're basing it on something, you know. Yeah. She didn't, like, as they pointed out, she didn't flinch. She knew her dad and her and her brother. I mean, she's complicit in some, to some degree, to what, to what degree, who knows? I don't know. But, like, you know, I think we're supposed to believe the cops when they're like, definitely knows. Yeah. You know, that's their read on it. Campbell Scott, how many more episodes does he get to be on this show?

Does he get to live? Given the trend, yeah. Maybe one. Maybe one more. Yeah, like he's already drugged. Yeah. So he's already got that fentanyl in him. He's already got the fentanyl in him.

Yeah. So, and he's increasingly in a precarious position because he's in the van. He's in the van outside of Alden's house, right? So it's like he's got to be dealt with pretty quickly because he will be discovered. by her new boyfriend. Well, that is furious. Up through episode four, Rob Mahoney will be back

and we will do episode five, I believe, again, unless Rob Mahoney comes back and he's like, I hate the show, but I just don't believe that's going to be the case. No, Rob Mahoney's hashtag ally. You know, he's going to love it. Press Tashviav at Spotify.com.

If you have any thoughts, if you're like, Joanna, why are you rooting for murder? Sorry. And you can let me know. Joanna, have you murdered anybody? Not yet. Great.

But I've been thinking about it. You have a short list in case things turn. for you. Thank you to Kai Grady. Thank you to Jacob Cordad and we'll see you soon. Bye.