The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Hacks’ Season 3 and Why It’s the Best Comedy on TV

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

Joanna Robinson and Craig Horlbeck take center stage to roast each other and recap the first four episodes of ‘Hacks’ Season 3. They open by sharing their personal relationships with the Max comedy and discussing why it’s such a smart concept, before likening it to another iconic HBO show (4:18). Along the way, they reveal their favorite episode of the entire series (so far), and talk about what makes stand-up so difficult to capture on screen (11:14). Later, they compare and contrast “The Roast of Deborah Vance” to Netflix’s Tom Brady roast and look ahead at the remaining episodes of the season (30:36). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Craig Horlbeck Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I mean, who are you worried about being a joke to? The guys whose respect you wanted most of all, you just rejected. Deborah, your superpower is that you're shameless. And having shame about the thing you want most in the world isn't you. You think that's a terrible idea. No, the cheese isn't working. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

Join me today for the first time on the Prestige Feed. It is Craig Warbeck. Hey, Craig. How are you doing? Hi, Joanna. Thank you for having me. I was going to start the show with a quippy line reading from hacks of like a funny insult. but they're so good at reading the lines, I couldn't recreate it, so I'm not going to attempt to do that.

The writing is too sharp and the acting is too sharp. I can't replicate it. It's true. It's true. It's an incredible show. We're here to talk about Hacks, season three. This is sort of like our mid-season check-in. They've aired four episodes since they're dropping to a week. It seems so fast that we're already mid-season on Hacks Season 3.

Do you like the two episodes per week strategy? It depends on the show, really. Like, some shows, yeah, You kind of want to clip through it with hacks. I think I'd prefer to savor. What do you think? I like that because it's only a half hour. You kind of sometimes I sit down for television and I'm like, all right, I'm ready.

I have a lot of an hour of times. So I feel like I can still watch two episodes at a time along with my friends and we can still keep up. A lot of the issues of streaming is like, oh, you're on episode four. I'm on episode eight. Yeah. Two a week, you can still kind of stay at the same pace as everybody else. So I don't mind it, but I wouldn't want anything more than two a week. I think what's interesting and, you know, we're going to talk about hacks and how it's

establish itself, but the fact that Hax is a max original, so it's not, like, hacks is such a popular, well-liked, well-constructed show that I think you could easily hold down a Sunday night appointment viewing spot

for HBO. That's not how the deal was made in the first place, so that's not how the deal is for season three, but I would love us all to be watching Hacks together on a Sunday night and talking about it. Like, I think that would be ideal. I totally agree. The show is literally like Debra Vance, where it's like, it started out really good and it just keeps getting better.

And they need to promote it into the prime time spot, like hopefully Deborah Vance will get. Love it. Love that. All right. So just, just want to flag for the prestige feed in general. We're going to be ramping up some content. I never love to over-promise and under-deliver, so I won't get specific. But we've got a bunch of shows coming on, a bunch of different hosts coming on.

So just, you know, stay tuned to this feed. Check us out on socials, you know, follow to see what we're covering. But today, as I'm a lot of it, you know, I said, we're just doing hacks, episodes 1 through 4, season 3. That's just for laughs, better late, the roast of Deborah Vance, and join the club. I want to shout out the trio of creators on this show, which is Jen Statsky, Lucia Iniello, and Paul Downs. Paul Downs is also in front of the camera. These are Broad City alums, but also Jen has some Michael Scher credits to her names as well. Were you a Broad City Watcher, Craig? Like, is that

I was. I love Broad City. I love basically everything these three have worked on. Statsky, I believe, also has late night history as well. And I love Paul Downs on the show. I think he's pulling off the rare feat of creator and actor. And he's doing a great job. So let's just take the broad view of hacks. You said it's a show that just keeps getting better. Does that mean like if you were to rank the seasons, you would say season three, the best, season two and season one? Or how has been your whole journey through the show? I don't know if I would say that, but what I'm impressed with the most about the show is that it felt like a kind of dynamic that would get stale where you would think, you know, after season one, you're like, all right, they've kind of,

what can they do? Is this going to be a gimmick? And it doesn't feel like it is. Season two, they went on the road after season one, they were in Vegas. And season three now, I just continue to be impressed that they figure out smart ways

to get Ava and Debra in a room that doesn't feel gimmicky. It's almost like succession to me where every three or four episodes in succession, they figured out a way to get the family back together because that was what was best. Yeah. And they have very expertly made sure

that Deborah and Ava can always be doing something together that to me has not felt forced. I think it has felt pretty natural. What about you? Yeah, I would say that season one just blew me away, just like blew me out of the water. Like, I just thought it was incredible. Season two, I thought was a little bit more mixed,

though I loved how it ended. I thought it was just like a perfect end. ending. They have this parting of the ways. Deborah fires Ava and says, you know, for her own go-as and sets her free. And so you're wondering, to your point, how are we going to organically get the band back together for season three? Like, do I even want a season three if it's going to feel like we're just undoing the end of season two? But that's not what they did here. The premise of this season, this idea of we're gunning for the late-night job as sort of a central

engine of the season and Deborah then feeling like she needs Ava in a way that she didn't before and Ava being in this sort of toxic romance of a kind with Debra it all makes sense

and doesn't feel forced at all and I really, I was really impressed with that. Yeah and it's cool because so this is obviously an iconic Vegas show. I mean I don't know is this the best Vegas show of all time? I know there was a show literally called Vegas. There's CSI Las Vegas. I mean, yeah, Yeah, would you put hacks up against CSI, Las Vegas?

Look, I can't pretend. I have not watched CSI Las Vegas. I feel like I get it. But it's an incredible Vegas show. But like you said, this late night run, I wonder if this will be like an LA show soon. And I would be into that because it is still kind of a pseudo-L.A. show. There is a lot of L.A. vibes.

The way who Ava is is so very stereotypically L.A. in the funniest way. Yeah, I'm excited to see if they need to get out of Vegas because if it feels like maybe we've kind of done all we can do, like sitting around Deborah's house in Vegas and playing the local venues, you know? No, I think that's brilliant. It's like a Vegas show season one, a road show season two, and then an LA show season three. I think that's absolutely brilliant. And I think, you know, I think your succession comp is really apt because I think they will also always figure out like some event to fly, Deborah to, you know, like some outside of the setting of the show place to take everyone because they've got that private jet set and they definitely want to use it. It's also, like, it's a great Vegas show, but to your point about it being an L.A. show, the way it satirizes the industry, I think, specifically through, not just like Deborah and Eva and all of that stuff is great, but through the Jimmy character, Paul Downs' character. And everything that that entails, like, I just think, especially, you know, in these episodes, we get a pickleball game as part of, you know, trying to move and shake your way through Hollywood.

They're checking every box. Yeah, they're just doing it all. When Ava slams her car into the back of a bus and everyone's pissed off at her and she's commending them for using next transit. Yeah. Like, there's always these little funny barbs about like being a young person today, what it's like to live in L.A. It's just a really balanced show, really. I mean, it's like the perfect meal. It has your protein, your veggies, your carbs, a little dessert.

The fact that this show manages to cover sexism, ageism, Hollywood, and at the Iniette, It's incredibly funny. It feels fresh. At the end of every season, you also feel like you've really learned something. You feel like you're a better person. And through all of that,

this show still just has a lot of jokes. There's just so many jokes. I mean, this show, jokes per minute is higher than any... It's at VEP level, almost, especially when Debra and Ava are in the same room. It's off the charts, and they're legitimately funny.

To me, it is kind of the first comedy since VEP. I can talk to my parents about and we can both find it hysterical, which I think is rare. That's what's so great about the show is the fact that it blends old and young different generations so well. Something we're going to do on our way out the door here is we're going to identify our favorite joke of the season. But it was funny is when I was watching through these episodes

trying to identify like what's my favorite joke of the season. There are so many tossed off Ava one-liner that are just like dry and random and hard to like repeat on a podcast as like, this is a really good joke because it's all in her delivery. But she she just throws them away. Hannah Allen Bender just throws these jokes away and they all land perfectly and I just, and I think that that combination of her like really dry casual delivery

inside the context of a show where you have a character like Deborah Vance who is this like old school borshbelty like Vegas comedian I think those blend of comedic styles really work really well. The show is just way, way better than it ever, I think needed to be.

I think that's how it feels. You know what I mean? I know. Hopefully more people watch it. I actually, do you know how it's doing? I haven't checked the ratings at all. Do we know? Is season three succeeding? I think it's doing pretty well. And I think the fact that it continues to be

sort of an Emmy contender, I think it means it's not in danger of Zazlov, like, cutting it, because they like the sort of prestige shine of it. So it's like, its ratings matter a little less than something else that isn't as much of an

Emmy contender, I think. And it's really clear that in terms of this being a cool show that people want to be a part of, like by the guest star roster that they have this season is really clear that this has sort of changed a bit in the culture because you've got Helen Hunt, you've got Christopher Lloyd, Tony Goldwyn, Christina Hendricks, J. Smith Cameron.

Like, you've got all these people being a part of season three in a way that we didn't even have in the second season. Like, it's just sort of... And again, your succession comp is really smart there because, like, this is a show now that, like, you could have someone like Adrian Brody dip in for an episode, and you're like, that feels right. That feels right for hacks, you know?

It's how you know a show has really made it. When the cameos really start ramping up, you know, it's like Curb after a couple seasons, people just started to pop in. Oh, it's like Conan O'Brien's just going to do, like, a three-episode arc on Curb. Exactly. And, yeah, it's in a great spot.

Something I asked you to do before you started recording is to pick your favorite episode of the entire series so far, of any season, not this season, but any season at all. What did you pick and why? To be honest, I think it's the pilot of the show. I think it is season one, episode one, which is titled, There Is No Line. And the show ends with Deborah sang in reference to comedy. She's like, there is no line.

You just have to be funny. Which to me is the most succinct way I've ever heard comedy summed up, especially nowadays in the weird place that we're kind of in with comedy. But I think that, I still think back to that episode because it makes you wait for the entire 30 minutes. it makes you wait for the big showdown at the end. It was like a boxing match for the first 25 minutes. It was like the undercard fights.

You were kind of waiting. You were kind of waiting. And then they finally let them loose. And you finally get to see them go at it. And it's still, I think the best back and forth on the show is Debra not hiring Ava. Ava kind of cussing her out. And then they go at it for like a good five minutes.

And when I still think of the show, Kai, I don't know if we can play clips of that moment, but it's still to me the best back and forth they've had, which is so impressive, the chemistry that they had right out of the gate. I think you better leave. Yeah. Can I show you to the door? Would you like to go back up the chimney?

Oh, no, I know my way out. By the way, so cool they let you move into a cheesecake factory. Oh, is that where you wait tables? That seems like a better fit. Oh, yeah, I agree, you classist monster. I'd rather slang bang, bang, chicken and shrimp all day than work here. I mean, fuck, what is this? 50 tassels on one couch?

Even Liveratchie would think it's a bit much. Oh, no. you're incorrect. He actually loved it. He did poppers on that couch in 85. Cool. I'm glad Liberace's butthole was nice and loose in your house. Maybe you should have joined him since yours is obviously tight as fuck. I saw that you picked that and so I went back and rewatched it. And I was like, to your point earlier about Ava being this parody of a certain type of Los Angeles person and commending people for their use of public transit, it.

The sweet spot that the show has found in terms of, like, Deborah saying the crassest most offensive thing and Ava just sort of like feebly saying, like, well, I don't really know if you can say that, you know, like sort of having their cake and eat it too, like say the joke and then have a voice say like, well, do we really say that anymore? And that's why it's appealing because both sides can like it. People can be like, oh, I love all of Deborah's jokes. I think they're great. I don't see any problems with them.

And then the other side can be like, oh, no, I actually love the way Ava handles Deborah and all of her crass jokes. I mean, it really is a perfect representation of, like, how old and young people are blended and coexist today. But it was so funny to go back to the pilot and remember that the whole premise is, Ava got canceled for a bad tweet. And she's, when they're talking about the line and where it is,

it's all because Ava's like, where is the, like, what am I allowed to say anymore? Like, well, she's having that conversation that we're hearing, like, you know, some of the more cooked comedians have that conversation about, like, well, you just can't say anything in comedy anymore. And I like, what I love is this show, To your point, it's like, there is no line.

You can say whatever you want. Just make it funny. Yeah, she was, Deborah was like, look, it's not the issue. The tweet is not the issue itself. It's that it wasn't funny. Yeah, exactly. And it's good that you're kind of, you're kind of constantly shifting back and forth between whose side you're on in the show.

Yeah. Sometimes you're like, Deborah's completely right. Other time you think Ava's right, it's easy to love. Ava's kind of sense of humor, the hyper progressive L.A. personality, constantly checking Deborah. but then you also love Deborah calling Eva out on her bullshit and Debra's jokes are, I mean, legitimately mean at times. She makes out of her big hands.

Yeah. Her greasy skin. It's wonderful. My favorite episode that I picked was season one episode five falling, which is the episode, like most of that episode, there's a few subplas. Most of that episode is Ava meets a stranger and has like one crazy night with him in Vegas.

And then he kills himself before the episode is over. And he, like, encourages her to quit working for, Deborah and then she has to like scramble to sort of unquit and all of that. But what I like, that was just my first instinct and then I was like, oh, wait, just don't, don't go with your immediate impulse. Like, actually have a reason why that's your favorite episode. And I was rewatching it and I was like, the thing that episode does is it takes, it's one thing for hacks to be innovative, which it often is, I think a lot of what it does is feels really fresh and new. But it's another to take a premise we know really well, which is the one crazy night episode and do something really special with it,

which I think this episode, I thought this episode is like really stunning and emotional and really funny at the same time. You had like Ava's old friends from L.A. come to town and they're like really mean to her and all the, you know, there's all this stuff that's going on. Deborah's blackmailing people. Like everything is, but then there's just this absolute melancholy emotional aspect to it too. This guy has come to Vegas to kill himself and he does. It's so dark. It really is. The show also captured, I mean, there's death in the show. You know, Ava's father dies. It's so well balanced where, wow, this at times can feel like VEP, where it's just like barb after bar going 100 miles an hour. You can also mix in these great lessons.

And, you know, the cliche of a young person learning about the world and gaining perspective by spending time with somebody more experience than them and older than them, it's just a huge feat. I really do think that this show is special, and I hope I can continue to do this for a long time. I'm so happy to be here talking about, you know, season three. I hope this goes like season six, seven, eight. And I did see a review. I think it might have been Alan Seppenwall. He was basically saying that, and I haven't obviously seen the rest of season three,

but that, you know, the show is about, you know, Gene Smart is 72 years old. And he was saying that not only does season three of hacks not seem like the end of the show, it seems like just the beginning, which I think is incredibly exciting. They keep finding new ways to keep this going. Yeah, something that Paul Downs said in an interview was that they have always talked about the show as a five-season show.

And when they pitch the show, they pitched the last scene as part of the pitch. So they know what they're aiming for, you know? And that just makes you feel like you're in sure hands. And they're not adding seasons just to add seasons that they, like, have the whole arc in motion. And I agree, if we're in season three, then we are just like right in the middle of everything they have planned. That is my favorite anecdote of like behind the scenes info about a show is when the creators are like, we wanted to do this many seasons from the beginning.

We're not adding. We're not subtracting. I think Succession was like that, right? Didn't they say four seasons they wanted to do? They're, you know, they flirted with more or less something like that. But yeah, I think largely they sort of stuck to their guns of what they wanted to do. That being said, there's also tremendous TV shows where they just wildly had no idea where they're, like, breaking bad. They sort of wrote themselves into corners and wrote themselves back out of it, you know?

That does not happen a lot. I feel like most of the time it goes incredibly awry. That's very true. Okay. So I want to ask you, you said in your description of why season one, episode one is your favorite episode that this line about, you know, there is no lines to make it funny is the most succinct description of comedy you've ever read. Are you a comedy guy? Like, what's your comedy relationship? I am. I would consider myself a comedy guy. I did improv in college. Did you? I did. I did. All right. Excellent. So, as you can see by my current skills right now. But yeah, I'm a big comedy person. I wanted to be on SNL when I was a kid. I've been watching SNL since I first had my mom got me, the DVDs,

a big comedy movie fan. And I try to watch as many comedy TV shows as I can. Stand up, I'm there a little bit. I like John Mullaney, but I'm less into stand-up than I typically am. But I think that's what's great about this show, is that although it's a show about stand-up, it's not really a show about stand-up. Yeah.

You know, they don't really use it. There's not actually a lot of it. It's used quite sparingly, which I think is nice. She's an established comedian and she's not a struggling comedian, so I don't think we really need to see her doing it because we already know she's kind of good at it. It's like a show about sports. You don't really need to see the athlete play. It feels like they only need to use stand-up for Debra when they need to like open or conclude kind of a storyline.

Or, I mean, I think the most stand-up we've seen from Debra is like really hacky stand-up, and that was sort of the point, is like, especially in season one, we're just, like, seeing her try out, like, really tired jokes. And then the fact that her, like, big break comes from this more sort of personal monologue that is humor, but not, like, stand-up comedy. It's, you know, it's, we've seen versions of that hit. I do have something else I want to say about the comedy aspect, but I need to veer back and ask you, what is your ideal SNL lineup?

Like, what was the best SNL cast that you ever watched? I think, I might be wrong on the year here because it all gets blended, but I think it was around mid-aughts and it was like, you had young Sandberg and the Lonely Island guys, Bill Hader, Armisen, Will Forte, Kristen Wigg, Maya Rudolph, Polar Faye. I mean, I think that all overlap. Sudakis, yeah. Sudecis, yeah, that was my favorite time. What about you? Are you an S&L fan? Yeah, I am an SNL fan. I think Lauren Michaels always says like your favorite, you know, cast is the cast when you were like, I don't know, in high school or something like that.

And I think that's probably true. But I think your pick is a really, really good one. And I think maybe second is sort of the Mike Myers-Danta Carvey, Phil Hartman era, like that sort of late 80s, early 90s lineup. That's hard to beat. I wouldn't call myself like a capital C comedy fan, but like I will own a lower C comedy fan. And I will say that like there has been much chatter about how it's so hard to capture comedy in film and television. My go-to example is Studio 60 was just absolutely that show

crashed and burn because they were trying to make a show about SNL, but they couldn't make the SNL part of it funny. And 30 Rock happens at the same time and 30 Rock does a much better version of it, right? And just like that, I'm dying up here, funny people, like there's all these shows

that have tried to be, or films that have tried to be about comedians with mixed results. Then you got like Seinfeld, which again, does not have that much stand-up in it. Like, it's the tag. but it's not really like the core part. Mrs. Maisel is much more about her stand-up crashing,

feel-good May Martin's show. But like, it's hard to do. It's hard to convince us the audience that the person we're watching is a comedy legend. And like, how do you think they pulled that off with Deborah Vance? Man, well, yeah, you know, I think the hard part about stand-up in movies or in TV often is that I think a lot of the times

the world of stand-up behind the scenes is not that funny. And it's kind of sad. I mean, you know, crashing, it's like Pete Holmes is like a struggling comedian. And I think what's nice about Hacks is that she's so successful already that you don't have to watch her go through kind of the darkest moments of a comedian's life. And you can explore other areas. So I think that's partly why it works. I think also, I think your point about them using the standup very sparingly is a key part of it. But I think also to your point about your favorite part about the pilot is watching Deborah and,

Ava workshop a joke is funnier than the joke needs to be. Totally. They land on a joke, but that's not, the joy is watching their brains, like, fire back and forth at each other as they try to zero in on the right word or whatever it is. And it doesn't even matter if we at home are laughing at the punchline because it was, you know, the journey that is the humor. And so, yeah, and the fact that Deborah is, like, rather washed when we meet her is all, is all sort of part of the way that they pulled off this miracle, honestly.

Yeah, it's like you always want a fresh new take on an idea. And there's been a lot of shows about stand-up like you just listed out. But no one has ever really done. The legacy comedian kind of locked into their everyday residency, kind of like just cashing your check type role. And they found the perfect person for it in Gene Smart. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound tersepetide may be able to help.

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Watch only on Prime. All right, so we gave Deborah and Eva their laurels. We love them, but we also wanted to shout out a few side characters because, well, it's interesting to see them. because we're only halfway through, so I don't have the full picture, but two things seem to be true about the season. One, they've promoted some of the supporting cast to main cast. So Paul Downs, Meg Salter, Rosa Abdu, and Mark Indelicato are all have been bumped up this season. But even with that bump up for them, I don't, I feel like we're more focused on the main storyline and Eva and Deborah. Like the side plots aren't as much of a factor. So, far this season at least. What do you think about the balance between the leads and the supporting season and which in the supporting cast do you want to shout out and give some love? We could probably do like a whole series on Meg Stalter. But I do think if there's one downside to the show or one knock, I do think it struggles a little bit when we get too far away from Ava and

Debra. Yeah. I think they've kind of tried to make other storylines work. There's been a lot of Marcus stuff. There's the poker dealer. They're definitely trying. I don't think it always lands. and I think that they have so much gold in Ava and Debra, and I think it's why they need to keep coming back to basically bring them together as much as they can to have these kind of showdowns because it's the bread and butter of the show. I mean, the end of the most recent episode,

the fourth of season three, is like just the two of them in a kitchen, eating cheese and ice cream and fighting. Yeah. And like that is the show's bread and butter, and that's what it's good at. So, but I will say the side characters to me, the only one that really, really works

is Paul Downs' character and Meg Stalter as the agency reps who are... Paul Downs, I think there's a great job. I think he's a really nice balance to Meg's craziness. Kayla? But yeah, by far,

those are the only two really that I think consistently work. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, Jimmy and Kayla, an incredible team. And I like the way that they sort of slow ramped up

Meg's present on the show. Like, Meg, I was aware of as, like, you know, a TikTok comedian, essentially before she was on the show. So when she showed up, I was so excited in season one. But they used her pretty sparingly in season one, I think because they weren't sure how her energy would play for people.

And guess what? It plays it really well. We love her. And like Paul Downs has talked about how he and Meg were like friends from, you know, like improv comedy scene. Like they already knew each other. So they had this dynamic already. And so they just made that dynamic their characters on the show.

And it works so well. And I love, I agree. Like I like that we're sort of drilled. down and we understand where the main direction of the season is, which is like, Deborah wants something. And that's so much of what that kitchen conversation was in episode for. Deborah wants something. And most of the side characters are in a place to also want that for her, because it's all good for the brand, good for the business. Except Kayla, who doesn't really matter what she wants. She's just a trust fund kid. She's just here along for the ride.

An agent of chaos. But she has something to prove in this, like, branching out on her own from like her dad stuff or whatever. But I liked this fourth episode because I think it was my favorite of the bunch. Because the side stories, like Ava's doing her breakup and playing pub trivia with Marcus and his mom and friends, right? Jimmy and Kailer are playing pickleball with Helen Hunt, a sentence. I never thought that I would say, right? You know, and then Deborah and Steven Tobolowski and all of them are, you know, emptying their

colons. And it's just like, that's a classic ABC plot of a show. And I think it's all like everything's like, yeah. Everything's just like perfectly balanced absolutely bonkers and all works. And then it all ends with Ava and Deborah together. And it's just perfect. Yeah, the pickleball scene was really intense. I would love to know if there is real high stakes pickleball like that amongst the studio elites.

You know, 20 grand there at the end of it. I bet there is. I bet it's real. I bet it is. I also love the like the quiet running joke of Helen Hunt's pickleball part. being her ex and never getting like a full sentence out.

I love, yeah, Jimmy being like sneaky good at pickleball, Meg Stalter just being there. I can't, my wife and I cannot stop laughing at Megstaltor. Literally everything she says,

if there was a Dion Waiter's award for this show, she would win it every single episode. She really, I mean, she could say anything. I mean, half the time she's not even saying jokes. She just like,

says like, don't worry about it, Jimmy, just charge it. And I'm laughing. Yeah. You know, I saw her, my wife Liz and I saw her at the Largo. Did you? Yeah, like, I don't know, six months ago. It was the most bizarre show I've ever seen in my life. It was kind of like experimental improv with crowdwork. And there was a lot of like, I don't know if this is a joke or not.

And I kind of knew that was her point. Yeah. But she is kind of as advertised. Like what she is on the show? She kind of is that person in real life. Her comfort with awkward silences and non-responses is just like she's, she's got like iron in her veins. She's amazing. And yeah, like, to your earlier point about Gene Smart being 72, what's interesting about this season is that it was delayed for 10 months, not just because of the writer's strike, but because she had heart surgery. And so there is an added layer of, you know, Deborah and. her, the time of life she's in and all of that has always been a fact for the show. But for G-Smart to bring that personal experience into this season, like, I'm really excited what that

might give us in terms of, again, the show can go really dark, really profound, really emotional one second and then have you like rolling them for laughing the next second is perfect. I know, you know, it is really, I think it's one positive of the show is that like you said, GeneSmart's 72 years old, but they're not, the show is not about her being old. It's not really a huge storyline. They're not, you know,

punching down with the, like, her back hurts so she can't get out of bed. I like that they are not treating her that way. I think it's actually like a very refreshing angle and that when you, if somebody pitched, oh, you know,

because I think these characters are 40, 45 years apart, I think that like the, the ages stuff would kind of factor a lot more in. And it's really not, especially on Deborah side, which I think is really nice. I completely agree. I just like that it's always a preoccupation for her. Like, she's always talking about, like, you know, plastic surgery or something. You know, like she is aware as someone in the industry is aware of how people think about older women. So that's like something that's on her mind. And then in episode four, when Jimmy's talking to her on the jet and he's like, you know, they want someone diverse. Being old is diverse. You know what I mean? She just like gives him this like withering look and it's so good. Yeah, so yeah, they're not punching down, but they are making it sort of like the definite subtext of the show.

Speaking, punching down, I want to talk to you on episode three, which is the roast of Deborah Vance. And I was curious, there's a comedy cultural phenomenon that I just completely skipped, but I was curious to get your take on it. We just had the roast of Tom Brady, which plenty of people, a ton of people tuned in for. How does this compare to the roast of Tom Brady? How is this reflective of that moment in our culture? Well, I'll tell you what, the roast of Deborah Vance was certainly quicker than the roast of Tom Brady, which was like...

How long was it? It was over three hours. No! Yeah, it was Killers of the Flower Moon. Wow, okay. But I've seen a decent amount of roasts. I would say I'm middling on them. They're so mean, and they kind of live in this bizarre space right now

where I don't really understand why they're okay, considering, like, the rest of the comedic landscape. Like, it's basically South Park, curb, you know, family guy, and roasts are kind of like grandfathered in from an older era where you can just, like, say whatever you want. Yeah. So I would say comparing it to Deborah's roast, the Brady roast, Deborah's roast could have been a lot meaner.

You know, the jokes aren't too bad. They didn't really lean too much into DJ. There was one joke about her being the biggest mistake of Deborah's life, which was very funny. But the Brady roast is quite brutal. I mean, they are bringing up, Giselle's jujitsu instructor dozens of times

and I thought they were polite to Debra and they handled it nicely and one thing they didn't do is at the end of the Brady roast Brady gets to stand up and kind of like give his rebuttal to everything

he's heard for the last two hours and 45 minutes. They didn't have that with Debra which I would have liked to see but maybe there's not enough of a relationship with the rest of the people roasting them that I probably wouldn't have hit.

That's the whole thing is like part of a roast is roasting the roasters and, you know, DJ's the only character. I mean, we could roast Pat and Oswald if we wanted to. Natasha Legerro? Yeah, sure, we could. Mario Canton gets like a mini-rost.

So, like, I think the idea is that she did do that, we just didn't have to watch it. Yeah, like, they didn't give us any ex-husband's house burning down jokes. They could have really gone a bit darker. Yeah, that's true. What was the highlight of the Brady roast for you? Is there a clip that I should seek out? The Bill Belichick Robert Kraft taking a shot together, I would say.

is pretty funny, but the person who killed it most was Nikki Glazer, who gave probably the strongest 10-minute set of the night. I think she is in line to be the next Jeff Ross, like the roastmaster. Okay, nice. She would be my selection as the heir apparent. I like her a lot. All right, best

joke of the season so far. Where are you with this? What do you have? I do a few, I have a few smuggles as a classic Mallory Rubin-Juinen-Robinson move. I told you that we were only doing one and then I was like, ah, how can I pick just one? Anyway, what do you have? Okay, well, I'll give you two as well.

I love the mother-daughter-like relationship between Deborah and Ava. I love when Deborah slips in a dig about Ava's physical appearance, and Ava just screams at her for it. In episode one of season three, the first one back, they are arguing about Deborah cutting off all levels of communication for the last, you know, nine months. They haven't spoken. And Ava's like, were you trying to teach me a lesson? What are you, Mr. Miyagi? and I'm the karate kid. And Deborah just quick as a whip,

under her breath goes, well, it wouldn't kill you to learn how to wear a belt. Like, that always works with me. That always plays. It's really good. It's really good. I will counter with Jimmy's basically

entire pitch to Ava of other projects that she could do when she's not writing for Deborah. So there's a procedural based on the game operation. Yeah. Gen Z deciding that the animated spoon from Beating the Beast is hot.

And when she's like, when she asked him to move on, Paul Downs' delivery of Jimmy saying, no spoon, okay. It's just really good. bisexual Gumby. Gumby. Gumby got me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then noisy concepts in Blackjoy. Just like that whole, like, watching that, those are just the moments where you're like, everyone in this room has heard all. of this absolute bullshit said earnestly by someone at some point in their life. And it's like this great exorcism of the industry that they get to put on the screen here. I'm a huge sucker for shows about Hollywood. Like I love entourage.

Even movies that are tangentially related. Like once upon a time in Hollywood, Babylon. I forced myself to watch ballers because it was like tangentially related. But the barbs about the industry in the show are so good. In that same episode, I believe, is when they make the joke about how studio executives love taking notes from their children. Yes. Yes.

She's like, oh, I love that. I love that little dig there. She's like, of course it would be the grandchild. Yeah. Yeah, of course. You have another one. When they make new ground rules, when Ava and Debra moved back in together,

and Ava's like, there's going to be some ground rules. You can't make fun of my appearance. You can't many other things. One, Deborah immediately goes, okay, first rule, you need to use the outdoor shower. But then after Deborah agrees to not insult Ava's physical appearance, Josefina, her housekeeper, comes in and immediately starts reading off jokes that Deborah wants her to say to Eva.

And the joke was, I'm starting the Mediterranean diet and I'm out of olive oil. Can I use your forehead? It's so good. So good. It's very like, you know, it's like old school, like Rodney Dangerfield like barbs. And I think a lot of people could probably look at these and say these are all cheesy. Almost like reading them on a piece of paper, you go, these are cheesy. But I don't know if it's that these are not really common.

in my generation, these are not like the types of jokes that stand-ups really do now. They're much more story-oriented. Yeah. It's much less punch-liney that these all really, really get me. And the delivery is so good in it. I'm sure these writers have a blast. Just, I mean, they probably have a list of a thousand punchlines that they just punch in whenever they want.

And it's a thrill. I love it. I think also just the way that Gene Smart reacts to her workaround to the rule in that scene, when she's just like she figured out a way. to get around the no personal cracks joke. It's so good. For me, okay, as someone who's a fan of pub trivia as I am, and I was like, I loved all the, like, extremely white questions that they had

Hannah answer when she's like, I love organic wine or like whatever. But the peak of this was them just saying, the answer is Francis Ha, her teammates going, good girl for like getting it right. But then the concierge from the Vegas Hotel on the competing team being, I'm a bomb backhead, dude. I know his whole uvra is so funny. Well, that was Joe Mandy, right?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. He's one of the writers of show. He's so good. Yeah, they never, I love that they just kind of shit on LA culture a little bit and just like film nerd. The way that they poke fun at Ava and like her whole like crowd,

the people that Ava's girlfriends come home with after like going out, they do a really good job of kind of like poking fun and all that stuff. Before we go, like what, you know, given them we haven't seen the back half of the season, like, what do you want from the back half in the season of Hacks?

It's a good question. To be honest, I don't really know. I don't know if I want. I mean, I'm assuming you'd have to think she's going to get the late night show, right? I guess that's the question. Would you rather the season end with her getting the gig? Do you think that's what Stepan Wall is, like, intimating, like, then seasons four and five can be the Larry Sanders show,

you know, it could be like whatever you want it to be. Or is it a better ending for her not to get, the gig and a sort of wondering what she does from there. Do you know? I know, I can't pretend. I mean, I'm not in the writer's room, so I can't pretend to be as smart as them. But if she doesn't get the show,

I don't know what you do. Like, I mean, she's already done the road thing. She put out her own special. She had the successful residency in Vegas. I feel like you have to give her this job and see, and that's probably season four is like the first female late night show. And then it can be a workplace comedy if they wanted to be, you know, because you have to assume Ava's on the writing staff.

And then it becomes not quite 30 Rock, but 30 Rock adjacent sort of thing. Yeah, you have Debra moving out to L.A., integrating back into L.A. and hating the culture and having to buy a house. And there's a ton of meat on the bone with that. I was wondering if a tell of that was the fact that they hired Dan Bukotinsky,

who won an Emmy for scandal, I believe. I'm 99% sure. as like the producer on the late night. You know, he just like shows up to be a very background character. And I'm like, are they seating him for the next season? Oh, interesting. I did not pick up on that. The show does so well with the characters falling on their faces and failing,

like that that is something that they do really well, that there's a part of me that wouldn't mind if she doesn't get it only because I think that they would be able to do something really smart with it. But most of me just really wants her to get it and what that could open up. And what I think the, to go back to sort of the Ava and Deborah, like, bad romance that is at the center of the show, and the way in which they sort of really play with that at the top of the season with, like, all the sneaky texting and everything that was going on between them, that, like, toxic love story. I'm interested to see if the end game is they made each other better or if the end game is they made each other worse somehow.

I don't know what story the show is wanting to tell, you know? Well, because it seems like when they are together, everybody else is annoyed with them. Yeah. They are in their own little bubble. Yeah. And she's like, what do you need to, you know, like, Ava losing her girlfriend, which should be a big deal. Someone she was like, ready to marry should be a big deal in anyone's life. And Debra's like, well, that's not what's important, but like, is Debra giving the right life lessons at this point?

You know, so I'm just curious, like, is Debra going to mold Ava into a version of her? And is that who we want Ava to be? This could come down to a real, you know, like a career versus relationships. Yeah. A la-lalance situation. You know, who do you want to be? What do you want to do? Personally, I just want the two of them stuck in a car with each other for 10 hours.

And that's, I could watch that for the rest of my life. Excellent. Well, I hope we get a bottle episode in a car just for you before the season's over. Yeah. So that's hacks. That's our hacks check-in. We just want to do a little check-in with a show that we love so much and encourage people to watch it if they aren't. If you listen to this podcast, you aren't watching Hax, what are you doing? Go

watch it. What's your favorite comedy on television right now outside of Hax? Because I'm not watching many. Comedy's thin on the ground right now. I don't know that I have a good answer of anything that's currently running. It's tough out there. I think it's like we're in that we talk about this all the time. We talk about the Emmys rates. We're in that really like smeary like fuzzy middle ground where like, you know, the bear is claiming to be a comedy, but is it a comedy? You know, so, um, Before we go, I just, we haven't mentioned too much about Caitlin Olson, and I just want to say, Caitlin Olson is DJ, I think, is like top tier excellent comedy. And I just want to shout out one more joke that I forgot to mention, which is when she's giving her roast.

And like, the what a cunt, like, whatever. But I'm known for my grip off the C-section joke. It's so foul and so good. And I really loved it. See, once again, this show is so good because every time I think something, they're going to make a wrong decision, they don't. every time I'm like, oh, DJ's going to come up and bomb and it's going to be really awkward. Yeah. Having her come up and kind of sneaky nail it, gain more confidence, and then use that to be like,

oh, mom, you're an addict. I totally get it and shoot her mom down. Just like a masterful way to handle that. I love Caitlin Olson. I'm a huge, always sunny fan. So always love seeing her. Craig, where can folks listen to you if they enjoyed hearing you on this podcast, which I'm sure they did? I co-host the Ringer Fantasy Football Show with Danny Hyvitz and Danny Kelly.

we are in full off-season mode. So we just finished the NFL draft show where we covered the draft with Ben Solac. But yeah, now we're talking about fantasy football all summer. And then I produce the town with Matt Bellany. If you're a fan of Hollywood or the kind of insider business world of Hollywood, you can listen to that.

I'm on the closing segment of every episode with Matt. And then I produce the rewatchables, which you can also hear me on sparingly. So check that out. We just did Jerry McGuire, the live rewatchables on YouTube, Jerry McGuire. That'll be up tonight. Thanks to Kai Grady, as always for his work on this podcast. Thanks to Justin Stales for his additional production work on this feed. And we will see you

in this very feed sometime soon covering something you love. Bye.