The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Hacks’ Season 3 Finale and the Vicious Deborah-Ava Cycle With Cocreator Jen Statsky

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin face off head-to-head and recap the ‘Hacks’ Season 3 finale. They start by discussing their favorite episodes from the back half of the season, the stacked guest appearances throughout, and the intoxicating dynamic between Deborah and Ava (1:28). Next, they unpack the final moments of “Bulletproof” and the major twist at the end of the episode (12:07). Later, Joanna is joined by ‘Hacks’ cocreator Jen Statsky to talk about the rhythm of Deborah and Ava’s relationship, why it was important to heighten the stakes for this season, toying with romantic tropes with various characters, and much more (28:27). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Guest: Jen Statsky Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Genuinely, honestly, unclear. It's Mallory. Rumin. Hi, Mal. How are you doing? Joe, it's wonderful to be here with you today. Curious to see if either of us brought a bottle of champagne. I'm always on the lookout for betrayal.

So let's see how we do. Okay, so we're here to talk about this season of hacks, really mostly the finale that just aired last week, season three of hacks. If you've not watched all of season three of hacks, pause, go do that, come back. Mel and I are just going to have a teeny tiny little chat by our standards, honestly. And then we've got a nice chunky little chat with Jen Statsky, one of these showrunners of Hacks. I adore Jen. She's incredible. And so we just talked about, you know, the season as a whole and sort of like, oh, I don't know, what is like to be a woman in the industry? So a little light stuff like that. But that's what Hax is about. So, Mel, I just want to like start with sort of the long view. What's your relationship with Hax? And how did you feel about this season overall? I absolutely adore the show. It's one of my favorite shows. It makes me laugh. It makes me think. It often makes me lose myself in a spiral of existential. dread thinking about the nature of working with people you love. Normal stuff.

It's fine. This is fine. You and me? It's fine. And I loved the finale. I thought this season was great. Excited to chat about the various highlights, guest appearances, evolving dynamics, etc.

And the finale, like a hacks finale, often is, was simultaneously amusing and stunningly emotional inside of a comedy. I'm just deeply invested in these people in their relationships and their lives and their careers. So I'm a huge fan of the show. I'm so glad that it's returning for a fourth season and that we get to spend more time with Deborah and Ava. And obviously, most importantly of all, Kayla. A one of one. Yeah, Craig and I, if you haven't listened already, Craig and I did a sort of mid-season check-in.

And I was just curious to hear from you if you had a, is there one episode that stood out for you this season that you really latched on to you more than any other? Without question part for the course. Yeah, it's such a Mallory episode. Tell me why that stuck out to you. I loved everything about it. I think actually the fifth episode, Deborah and Eva get lost in the woods together

was my least favorite of the season. So, which is maybe an unpopular opinion, but part of it was where episode six felt like a little bit of a return to form because their dynamic is obviously the heart of the show, but so much of what I love about it is how they both individually and then collectively play off other people, watching them operate as a duo in the world around them. I just adore. And that episode felt like hacks at its best, where they each have a mission. They each have an agenda.

They each have something that they're trying to prove to the other person, trying to prove to themselves. And we got Tony Goldwyn and Christina Hendrix in the episode, and I thought that they were both sensational. I loved both. I mean, the guest appearances across a hack season are, you know, tough to top, obviously. But those were two of my favorites in the season. I could do, you said that this will be very short compared to our usual standard. But if you wanted to do a four-hour dispatch at some point on the oil heiress wanted to piss on Ava plotline of this show, I'd be happy to. Sign me up. Wonderful stuff.

This is the episode that I was watching it while building some furniture in my living room. What a normal thing to do. And my housemate walked through and, like, did a full stop. And she's like, first of all, she's like, is that Yosef Bridge? Because she's never seen Mad Men. So that's who she thinks of Christina Hendricks says. And then she was just like doubled over with a laughter. She's like, why is this the funniest show I've never seen?

And then I was like, well, you have to go watch all of hacks. Don't start here. Go watch all of acts. Wonderful stuff. I also just, that was a Paul Downs directed episode. And I thought it was sensational, the direction. That was shot at the Langham Hotel, which is where, um, one of the TCA Television Critics Association press stores happens every year.

And so I was just like, oh, I've interviewed someone on that terrace. Oh, it was like, it was very disorienting experience. I don't have a lot of mileage at most luxury hotels, but that's one I've spent some time at. You don't take your meetings out on the links, typically? But maybe I should in future. Maybe that should be my new MO. Yeah, that was my favorite as well. I think, you know, the guest stars were great, but to your point, it's like the dynamic

between the two of them, especially in their sort of like post-game wrap-up of like what the whole weekend was for them. I thought that was amazing. And I think, I think this season overall, I think season one has some like individual higher highs for me. As I mentioned to Craig earlier, 105 is my favorite episode full stop of the show. But I think this season overall with its structure of like we have this clear goal that we're like almost all the plot lines are sort of aiming towards. I think that made this feel like the strongest season for me narratively. How did you feel it, like, compared to the other seasons? This show to me feels like my memory is that every season has ended with this question,

other than this one when season four was announced before the finale, of like, will hacks go on? And that the people who watch it and love it have just been, other than, you know, the nature of the streaming wars era, like TV landscape that we collectively inhabit, befuddled by that because it's such a gem of a show, why would it not continue until the exact moment, yeah, exact moment

that the creators want to stop making it? And so I think because the creative trio that is driving it has such a clear vision for the story that they want to tell, it has felt like every season has built so organically and naturally on top of each other. It has, like, heading into this, I'm excited to dive into the finale

a little bit more because there was this very, I was thinking about both succession and billions. Succession for reasons that we'll get into, but also just that like, okay, is every finale going to be a, they've made their way back to each other and then there is a setback, like how often can this same dynamic repeat? But by the end of the finale, I was just awed anew by not only one, how true to form and true to life that felt that like you find yourself in these cycles

with the people that you spend the most time with, right? And they're often very difficult to break out of. And that they were acknowledging that aspect of human nature while also putting a very fresh and I thought astonishing and quite delicious twist on it. And then the other show that was on my mind was Billions because that Axe Chuck dynamic throughout Billions was always one of the questions of how long billions could go. Right? Like I loved, I've been billions of joy to me. But like there was always this question of, well, if this core relationship is the driver, you move in. forward, you move back, like how many times can you reset the board with the same two people

before that ceases to be credible? And so the shows that can do that and continue to do that are the ones that work. And so, yeah, season three, I thought was narratively, to your point, quite compelling and also felt like the third installment that these people had shared together and that we had shared with them. We could not have found them where we left them at the end of season three in season two or season one. We couldn't have. And I think because their plan is like, as I've discussed, their plan is like a five-season arc. So here we are right smack dab in the middle of everything. And that's a fascinating place to be.

And I think that like Paul and Lucia and Jen, the three showrunners have all given like a ton of interviews. Our chat with Jen is obviously the highlight and the best. But like talking about this idea of Ava and Deborah are both characters on an arc. But Debra, because she has been in this industry so much longer, been on this earth, so much longer, seen so much more shit, et cetera, is so much more calcified in her ways, her arc is moving at a different speed than Ava's, right? And so, like, if Ava can take two steps forward and then another two steps forward, then another two step forward, like, Deb's always taking one step back on that arc and just sort of settling back into her previous

ways or her previous fears or all those other things. And Jen talked about that really, like, eloquently in the chat you'll hear later in this episode. But I just think, I think that is part of the key for the success of this relationship, the pull apart and come back together has a lot to do with two characters who are not just growing together as they are, but they're growing together at different rates. And so you get this sort of stutter stop rhythm,

which makes for great drama and comedy, every single season. On the finale front, I want to ask you, Mallory Rubin, famed fan of taking headshots, How much did you relate to Ava and her pencil-based headshot session? I was in tears. Like, genuinely in stitches.

I was crying because I was laughing so hard. This was just sensational to me. I am like, as you know, Joe, is my dear friend and creative partner, the most awkward person alive. And the idea of having to sit there while other people take my picture just makes me want to curl into a ball and then die. Watching not just Ava in that situation. And of course, like, this is what's great about hacks is that the comedy is driven by some emotional truth. And so she has sought out these headshots

because she is on the brink of achieving her dream before it has stripped away from her. So of course, she would need a new headshot. She needs to be ready for this next stage of her career, of her life, like the reality of her existence finally being in line with her ambition, right? And that moment where she's like, yeah, well, I'm, yeah, I'm a writer. And the photographer's like, we need to start over. She just killed me.

That was so funny. And then the pencil bit. The pencil. Just the commitment to the bit on hacks. This is why, obviously, the show is about Deborah and Eva, and I adore them both, and I adore that relationship.

Jimmy and Kayla are often my favorite part of every episode because the commitment to the bit is so, so palpable in their scenes. And so I felt that with Ava and the pencil and the way that she's like simultaneously, like, insulted, embarrassed, but then kind of like working with it. Should I throw all this pencil? Is this what a writer would do?

It's so good. I have taken photos with you and you are, if you are awkward, you bury it really underneath this layer of easy charms. I thought you were about to say, I have taken and then fill in the second half of the sentence with headshots where I hold my 31 green pens instead of a pencil. Only a green pen for you. Yeah, one Ticonderoga or 31 Green Pense. There's no middle ground. I brought up Succession and put it in our show notes, which I'm sure, like, you know, it's just like when we were talking about Shogun and we would bring up Game of Thrones. Like, no one's going to thank me for ringing up Succession in the context of this show. But it did, this moment did remind me a lot of the season two finale, the famous season two finale of Succession, where Kendall uses his father's tactics against him to Kendall seemingly walking in Lamb to the Slaughter. And then there. there's this, like, turn where he uses his father's tactics.

And then the great Brian Cox gives us that, like, look to camera that is both, like, rage and frustration and all this sort, but also admiration. And Gene Smart gives us a similar sort of Deborah being completely outraged by being outmaneuvered, but also a little like, that's my girl in the mix. And so I bring it, you know, there's a million ways in which the show could be like succession and there's a million ways in which it is not like succession. It is very much its own different thing. But those two moments, I'm only mean to flatter hacks when I bring that up because I just think that that is one of the all-time, maybe difficult moves to pull off where someone you are rooting for in, you know, as we often did with Kendall Roy and as we always are doing with Ava, does something that you know is probably on the one hand kind of bad for them, but also you're proud of them too at the same time first and get for them. How did all of that land with you? I thought it was sensational. So if we take this in kind of like three stages,

and obviously it's not just contained to the back half of the finale or the finale, it's the entire arc of the show. Everything leads to this point. They chatted on the inside the episode after the fact about that like shark callback, right, to like way back yonder. Right. But if we just think about the big moments at the end of the season at the end of the finale, the fight, right, Ava going to Debra and saying, you're a fucking liar, right?

She learned the truth. Deborah's bullshitting her. She calls her out on it. I thought that scene was so harrowing and upsetting. And like, I'm eager to dive into that if we, if time allows. I just thought that was like exquisite. Then we build toward the convenience store solo Ava moment. And, you know, she's in her sweats.

She's looking glum, and what does she do? She sees the champagne and she buys it. And we think for a moment that it's the bridge to forgiveness. This is on the, right? The Jimmy conversation has taken place at the office. And my first feeling seeing that was she sees the champagne. It reminds her of Deborah. I mean, we're like on Ava's side here.

But when she says you think you're only lonely when you have to open a bottle of champagne, bullshit, you're lonely all the fucking time. It's like so savage. and vicious. Yeah. Yeah, it's just cruel. And so I was like, okay, she's going to bring the champagne to her

and they'll share it, right? And it's like you don't have to be alone when you do things like this. We can do this stuff together. That's what our relationship is, is turning the things that we used to fear or used to think we had to confront alone and tackle them together.

And then when you realize, not only what she has done, but that the champagne was her becoming Deborah. Like that bottle was for her to consume in her loneliness. And, like, that's kind of devastating. Absolutely. In tandem with that pride that you said,

it's like she was willing to do the thing that she thought was right for her, but at what cost, there's like this, you become the thing that you previously held in, like, some kind of active state of lamentation.

The Kendall comp that you made, the Kendall Logan comp to season two is perfect, because that look on Logan's face, I think we'll stand the test at a time, as one of the great moments in the history of TV because of what it told us, like what we understood

about both of those characters in the span of a glance. And for Deborah and Ava, Ava doing this, like, you wouldn't. I would. Wouldn't you? It's all right there just in that exchange.

Like, this is who you taught me to be. Exactly. And so for Debra, she has to confront the fact that this is what she brought into the world, like this version of Ava, a version that Ava didn't not want. A version of Deborah that Ava was always trying to work her out of is what Deborah's

lessons on how you conduct yourself, how you navigate, being a woman in entertainment, being a woman in the world, being somebody who is determined to be selfish, this is what it looks like. And then you're the one on the other end of the thing that you created. It's delicious. And I think what is increasingly delicious for me in the show is this idea that, like, when we watch the season start and Ava and Deborah are coming back together, they're texting each other in this like sort of, you know, coded language of a sneaky love affair or whatever. And Ruby is constantly saying to Ava, like, why would you go back to that?

That's so bad for you. And like, let's envision a different future for Ava where, you know, our lives are emptier because we don't get to watch her with Deborah. but like she's a tremendously successful writer and a hugely popular show and she's in a loving relationship with, you know, a woman that she adores. And she's like happy living in this house.

Lots of shower sex all the time. All the shower sex and sort of, you know, incredibly well-attended panels that you could possibly want in your life. So, you know, a work balance, all the things. And the dramatic tension and the comedy potential,

this is, again, not to bring up succession, but this is what would happen all the time on succession where I'd be like, oh my God, the siblings are almost, oh, no, they're not going to, they're not going to like reconcile. So it's like, okay, Ava's found herself a life outside of Deborah and it looks really fucking good, actually, and no, she's going to go back to Deborah. And so it's like we're both rooting for and against that at all times

because it's worse for Ava, but it's better for us. And so the question that I have, and I don't know the answer to, I know that the creators think of the show as like a redemption for Deborah but I'm curious what it means for Ava. Is Ava a character, are we all headed towards a happy ending for everyone at the end of

five seasons? Or is this a show about hard truths of the industry? My inclination is that it's the former that we are headed towards something very hard one but positive and it might be a life that is truly separate from each other once and for all

or a way to peaceably coexist. I don't know. We've got two more scenes of fun to find out how that all happens. But I don't know. What do you want for these characters? What do you want for the future of this show? I don't totally know. And I think, like, I know for Debra, I want her to win.

Like, I want her to achieve the thing that she felt deprived of for so long. That's the easy answer. But that's waiting to you. And that's winning to you is, like, being the... Post of late night, and it's not having a good relationship with her sister or anything else that she might. It's a great question. Yes, in a kind of uncomplicated way for Deborah, and here's why. Because she believes that that's true.

And I actually, I think that for Ava and for Deborah both, the show is about what they can teach each other. But Deborah, and Deborah has grown and learned a ton because of ABLE. But I, and I'm always, always open-minded about this stuff and willing to receive whatever the, the show gives me. Totally. I think that Deborah's arc, to me, feels like one about evolution and progress and side of the truth

that you've been pursuing your whole life. Like, that you don't have to necessarily give up the thing you wanted in order to be a different or better person. And I actually like that. I think that, like, Deborah having to say, this is like, I think for us, like, it's hard to not put a little bit of ourselves

into our answers here, right? Like, for Debra, a version of the show, show where she says, I don't actually want late night or I don't want X, Y, and Z because I don't think I can get that while also having, like, progress in my relationship with my sister or a healthy relationship with Ava that feels right to me or romantic relationship that I cherish would be so deflating to me and really contrary to I think the mission of the show, which is like, why should Deborah be the one who has to sacrifice those things that like all of the men around her never had to let go of for a minute? But if Deborah herself, like not because of what other people are telling her or trying to make her feel, decides, actually, like, I tried this and it wasn't what I thought it would be, that would be different to me. Yeah. But I want to see her find that out on her own. I want her to get that opportunity. 100%.

I completely agree. Like you and I think something I like about our partnership personally is that we are so similar until we're not. And that we're both ambitious people, but a slightly different, like, flavor of ambition. I think. And so I like that your perspective is going to be always going to be like slightly different than mind on this, but on this we agree, which is that Deborah should not have to compromise or give anything up in order to get what she wants. Whatever she gets that is what she wants has to be the total thing that she wants.

Yes. That's my hope for her. I think she deserves that. I think all people deserve that. But I don't think that means that what she did to Ava was right. I think it was deplorable, obviously. And that is Deborah ultimately not just failing Eva, but failing herself. And that's why I thought the fight that they had was so effective and unmooring because, like,

Deborah knows she's dug in, right? Her heels are as deep into that shiny, lacquer floors as they could possibly be. But she knows that what Eva's saying to her is right. When she says you're already making decisions out of fear, there's a part of her that knows that that's true. and that she is, like you said earlier, like regressing and backsliding into these old tendencies that Ava was a huge part of helping her grow out of. And the fact that that kind of progress that they made together didn't have, not only didn't

have to be mutually exclusive from pursuing the thing Deborah wanted, but was actually helping to unlock it. And that Deborah got too trepidious and, like, let her anxieties and her fears, which again, is part of what I love about the show is that that's what you would do. Like, that's human nature, right, to be guided by your fears right at the goal line there to disrupt the thing that they were doing together is so tragic to me. And so when we swing to the Ava perspective,

like your question, I have a harder time answering the what do I want for Ava part of it? And I think that's because I see myself much more in Ava than I do in Deborah. And so it's just like a much more complex one. Like I think that Ava pulling a candle, Ava becoming the shark that she said she didn't want to be. As recently as in that fight a couple of scenes prior, there's something about that that's like,

like you said, we have this kind of dissonance as we're watching it of pride that she's like capable of playing the game, right? You're in the great game now. And also there's a part of us that's like, well, we don't want you to do the thing that like you were so resentful of in other people.

Whether Ava can, whether the quote unquote happy ending for Ava is like finally breaking away and going to try to do something on her own or whether it is actually saying to all the other people who are like, maybe other than Jimmy, who's like you two are the best together.

All these other people who are like, Ruby or otherwise, why do you stay with her? Why do you choose to live your life this way? Are these the people you want to spend? Your entire life is these other people? And then she's like, yeah, because this is like the creatively enriching pathway

to like me pursuing the thing I love. I really feel that in a way that is like, deeply intense for me. I know. So I'm like, I don't know. Maybe the happy, for Ava is that partnership with other people? Like, it could be, right?

I don't mean to swing from comparing this to succession to comparing this to love actually, but like this show is one that actively is engaging in rom-com tropes. And so I will say that there's that moment in love actually where Bill Da'i's character says to his manager that he's like the goddamn love of his life. And it's just sort of like, yes. What are the most fulfilling relationships in your life? And can they be these? creative partnerships instead of anything else. Or, you know, maybe in addition to everything else,

but maybe one doesn't have to be weighted more than the other or doesn't have to be weighted as people can eventually think they should be weighted or something like that. So as someone who works very closely with you and adores you, this is such a compelling relationship for me to follow. So I love this show. I mean, as I said, this is going to be a teeny tiny little chat about hacks. Anything else you want to say about the show before we go? Just one more round of applause for Kayla and Jimmy. Yeah.

Every scene, every single one is a joy and a treasure. The the whole like we're heading to the courts, break out your racket, like pickleball. I got you sweating

last night. Plot line of the season was just like sensational. Google the rules. Google the rules. Google the rules. Google the rules. Google the rules has really stuck with me. It's like maybe my favorite joke of the whole season. And that's a high bar because there's so many good ones. But just like the way he says it as they like walk towards camera, just like Google the rules.

Oh, man. It's really good. Absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved it. What else? I thought that Damien gripping any part of Marcus's body that he could find a purchase on to beg him not to leave because he doesn't want to have to inherit that level of responsibility in Deborah's life was quite amusing. I don't want to know when one fiscal quarter ends and another begins is like one of the most relatable things I've ever heard.

I don't think of my own taxes. It was like screaming and crying. It was so funny. That's really good. That was very amusing and great. I also got a real kick out of Marcus being like the real vault is under the pool. I know. If we ever have a pool, Mallory, that's where we're putting our vault. That was so funny. That really made me laugh. That was great. Mark and Delacado was at the Austin Television Festival this last weekend, who plays Damien. And he was just like just running around all over town just being like the most charming, like, moustachioed man you've ever seen. And I was just like, I was like, this is good representation for hacks at this festival. I loved this season.

I'm really excited to see what's coming up. I just feel very personal about this show, very personally attached to this show. I think for reasons you and I both understand about. about each other. Just, you know, just, you know, having ambition, being a woman, as tangentially related to the industry as we are, et cetera. It's just, and then it's just like additionally just a pure delight. What a great show.

How lucky are we? Would you have tried to kick out somebody at one of your holiday parties who had befouled your gingerbread manse? That's the, on the etiquette front. No. Do you think it was clear that that was not to be meddled with or consumed? to buy partygoers. As someone who was like raised in a house

where there was like a whole room where you weren't supposed to actually sit on the furniture, yes, I do like understand that whole ideology but from that same person my mother who came up with that whole room

is the idea of the backup pie like you always have a backup so if I were Deborah I would have had a backup gingerbread manse number two. A man's for display and man's to consume. Yeah, just in case.

I love this. You know, you got to be prepared. All right, let's go now. With that fun peek into my childhood, let's go now to our interview with Jen Statsky. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet

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sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read, Twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Well, let me start with, it's my understanding that the endpoint of the season was sort of always your planned endpoint for the season.

But I also know that there were a lot of delays for a million different reasons and, like, things changed here and there. what's the most significant thing that changed in the season while still achieving this as its endpoint? So early on in the plotting out of the season, Paul Ocundah, you know, we get together and we say like these are these are the tent pulls that we want to hit and then we bring them to our writer's room and we further work them out and talk about them and figure them out. And so this move at the end where Deborah would take this job away and lie to Ava and then Ava would have to use a very Debra. tactic to get it back from her. That was always the plan. And honestly, I think one thing that changed or was was altered or up for grabs as we were beating out the season was the mechanism by which Ava would blackmail Deborah.

You know, I don't, it wasn't always, Ava will blackmail her with this information that she slept with the owner of the conglomerate of the network. It was more things were up for grabs. we were talking about, is it something even further back from their past? You know, this is a woman who slapped it. So that came up and a couple of things. And then eventually we really landed on this feels right. It feels like something new that happened in this season, which felt fresh. It felt so incredibly in a very painful but good way tied to the public perception of of Deborah that had happened when the house fire happened many years ago.

And, you know, in her mind, oh, no, the same misogynistic response would happen if it comes out that I slept with a man to get the job. And so it just felt really painfully right once we landed on it. What's fascinating about your show is that you've got this rhythm of pulling Deborah and Abrah apart and then drawing them back together and pulling them apart and drawing them back together. in a way that stunningly feels fresh every time. Every time I'm like, how are they going to do it this time? Is that something you guys think about in terms of like, how are we going to do it this time? Or how do you consider that rhythm?

Yeah, it always needs to be an evolution, right? Like, you can't just have the character spinning their wheels and going back and finding themselves in a place that we've already seen them. And so it's a combination of making sure their relationship is evolving. Of course, with them, it's always. step forward, a couple steps back, step forward, a couple steps back. And also just like that plot-wise,

their careers are so monumentally important to these women that that's something I think season three we heightened and it worked to great effect, I think, which is that the stakes feel higher because they're both in positions of power now. Debra's having this crazy career resurgence. People are talking about her again. She's got all these eyes on her.

She says it. Ava has this really stable job where she's seen as the hardest working best writer there. You know, they are, they are far different from the two women who met in the pilot who couldn't, Eva couldn't get a job anywhere else. And Deborah was a vagus hack for lack of a better term. So I think it's, it's just making sure that we're not doing a retread. You know, it's not them back in the same. old place. And if it ever was them back in the same old place, it's like emotionally they need to

have changed and grown and have a different perspective on it to explain why they're going through it yet again. Knowing that the pursuit of late night is a big part of the season, there was a question in my mind of, is this a kind of show where Deborah Bance gets that job? Or is this the kind of show where she doesn't get that job? Did you consider a version of the story where she doesn't get that job? Was that of her on your mind. She always got the job. She always since day one when we pitched their show got the job. And when we pitch this story, it is first and foremost this very specific story about the creative collaboration and love that occurs between two people who have this very unique language with each other. But we also pitched it as a redemption story. You know,

this is a redemption story for Deborah. And on the path to redemption, it felt cool. correct that she would finally get this white whale of hers. But it's interesting you say that because what is the type of show where she doesn't get it? Is that a more a darker show, you think? Yeah, I mean, I think it, you guys are not afraid of the sharp edges of the comedy of your show, obviously. Like, you go to dark places. Is this a kind of show that would want to get even that much darker? And I don't think it is because I think what Hacks does so brilliantly is that there is enough, like, light and hope.

and as you say, like a journey towards something so that when things get dark, when people get slapped, when people get betrayed and all these things happen, we're not sort of feeling like we're wallowing in one tone. Does that make sense? Yeah, thank you. I mean, that's very, I think that's intentional

and that's our view on, you know, the world and life. And, you know, I think about this a lot because sometimes people go like, is it a satire? Is it, you know, sometimes, sometimes I think people want it to be even darker and harsher sometimes or meaner about the industry. I don't know. I don't really think many people want that. It's not like I'm hearing that. But like, I guess what it is is like there's so many shows about show business.

And sometimes shows about show business come from a POV, which they can be enormously funny and wonderful. But the POV can be like, God, this is such a dumb industry. and we're all stupid for being here. Right. You're vain and narcissistic and BAPID if you work in it. And then on many days, that's true. And Deborah Vance has a lot of those qualities, and so does it. But I've always felt like I come from the perspective,

but at the end of the day, I, me, Jen, have chosen to spend my one life on earth working in this industry and creating television. And I love doing this as well. hard as it can be and as much as you have to do the work with your own ego to not let it take over. So I think maybe what you're touching on is that we never just want it to feel negative and bleak and leave and just be kind of like, yep, and that's and that's it. That's the, that's the takeaway, even if sometimes the most true to life thing would be that.

On the, on the true to life front and the satire question, I'm curious, are there any jokes or moments this season that some people think, wow, what a wild satire of Hollywood? And you're like, no, actually, that's very close to the truth. Certainly. I mean, you know, there's a line in the finale bulletproof where Paul is like, she says, are they, first of all, someone did actually say to one of our writers that they were looking for noisy concepts. So that's correct.

And then also someone, you know, one time to me. I said, you know, what are you looking for? And the person did say like, uh, hits. And that's not, by the way, like, I don't mean in that sense to satirize the person because the person said that is actually wonderful and smart. What it is is like that person is correct. The way that the business has now gone with streaming and the need for this instant hit so that subscribers are sign up with.

this quarter. That is what we are satirizing in that moment. It's just, unfortunately, like, yeah, like, you ask, that's just true. You also mentioned you use the word love to describe Deborah and Eva, and it's funny because I remember right when season one premiered really early on, I was talking to a TV writer, friend of mine who was obsessed with the show as I was, and he was like, well, it's a love story. He's like, this is a love story they were watching. And what I love is this season, you sort of lean into that even more when you have Debra and Eva doing their like sort of almost like sneaky cheaty texts like in the sequence of the beginning of the season.

And then you've got, you know, at the end of the season, you've got this grand romantic platonic gesture on a plane between two other characters. And I'm wondering, you know, sort of how much how much fun you're having playing with those, the language of a more classic love story to describe these industry. relationship, partnerships. Yeah, it's very fun for us and very intentional. Like, that is, you know, we have always seen Deborah and Eva as a love story, even if in moments it's twisted that love. And, yeah, and then this season, it was fun to explore that through Jimmy and Kayla. We're very interested in the language that happens between two people when they work together

and the relationship between two people when they work together and the relationship between two people when they work together, especially when the work is so deeply personal. You know, that is what I think attracts, I hope, fellow creatives to the relationship between Deborah and Eva is because, you know, we're trying to very authentically speak to the fact that, like, it is a different type of working relationship. I believe that I've had other jobs, now granted, I've been writing for a very long time, but like I've had other jobs and it's just a different type of connection, I think, because it is so deeply, the work is so personal.

Like, one of the hardest things to me about doing this job is that it's very hard to have any separation between the work and myself, meaning the way the work is judged and the way the work is seen is how I am seen and how I am judged. And that's, and I believe our characters feel that way. And so when it is so personal and there's so much personal stakes that way, the relationship just to me becomes so deep and so intense in that way. And so it is a love story. And in that it gives us things to play with, you know, of course, kind of traditional, you know,

rom-com tropes. Obviously, we're going at that with the plane. But what's interesting is, like, we never go into it with, like, talking about Debra and Eva and going like, oh, we could do this, we could do this rom-com moment or something. Like, it's funny. It just kind of is the natural way where like, well, that could happen, you know, like in episode two when Ava is on the phone with her and the call dropped and then Ava just shows up.

Yeah. That again, that's a very like kind of rom-com love story trope. But it's never like, we're never thinking of that first. It's more just like talking about. how it would go between her and Eva and what would make for a dramatic, you know, story in that moment.

And it's interesting. It's like, it's sort of like, is it, is it just because it's ingrained in us as storytellers that there are these things that you can do that, I don't know, are natural and inherent to a love story or, I don't know, it's really an interesting thing. Sometimes it's very intentional,

but then sometimes we find ourselves being like, oh, right, we didn't even, we were just telling the story and that's very like a rom-com of us. You mentioned with Jimmy and Kayla, there's like so much more Jimmy and Kalin. You know how much I love them this season.

There seems to be just like a slightly different balance of equation among the characters this season, among like incredible guest stars this season. Is that part of you wanting to make each season feel different in distinct from another? Or do you feel like the story is evolving in a way that sort of your ABC plots are sorting out a little differently than they have in the past. I think it's more the latter. It's less an intentional thing of like, let's, okay, now let's give

them something different this season and more just first and foremost, we really organically follow the story and where we feel these characters would go. And of course, Deborah and Eva are like, Deborah, first and foremost, that is the character whose goal we are all aligned with. for better or worse, Ava too. His goals are Debra's goals. Yeah. Something that girl needs to work out.

But so really what it is is, you know, this season was, okay, we're going to give Debra this incredible goal, this big, big thing she's going after. And so I think there was so much momentum, you know, that ball rolling down that hill was so strong and kind of what it was is like, then it's hard, like, to cut away from that can often feel like it's hard to feel like any other story has the same type of stakes as that.

And it's also, you know, like sometimes people say to us, they go, hacks should be one hour. Hacks is an hour alone. And I'm like, well, it's not. But sometimes I wish, you know, we had the real estate. to do it like that, but we don't. And so because we don't, like, it all kind of gets dictated by the story and how we're following Deborah and Eva and what they're going after.

And that's why I think this season ends up being so rewarding for people. And I think why people, to me, it seems like people have felt like the balance. They like it. I don't know. Maybe the most. I don't know. But like, Deborah and Eva have this tremendous goal. Jimmy and Kayla are working towards that goal.

And so they're all on the same page. And then Marcus' storyline, which this is painful, but it's like then that goal becomes in conflict with his. And so it's like everything, like the center of the universe is this quest for late night. And it all, everything that happens comes from that. I wanted to ask you about Marcus because, you know, forgiving if you talked about elsewhere and I haven't seen it, but it almost feels like, you know, this is the end for that character.

Is that the case? No, it's not the end for the character. It's what it is is just a natural, again, like always trying to authentically follow what would happen with these characters in the story. And I worked in late night and there are a lot of, like, specific things with ads and like demands from the network of like what a host can and can't do. I mean, I wasn't there at the time. I believe Jimmy Fallon, who I did work for, didn't he, like, get in trouble for, like,

talking about an NFT on air or something? Yeah, yeah. That's not going to happen with Deborah, because she has not dove into NFT. She doesn't understand them. Yet. Yeah, yeah. Good point. Good point.

But we felt like, oh, that is a real conflict, like, for a businesswoman like Deborah, it's been this three-season law and arc of, like, this person who was really tied to Debra too much so as, you know, his relationship with Wilson in season one explores and kind of this gradual growth for him in realizing, like, does this relationship still serve me? And if not, what do I need to do? And so, again, it's really just following what we hope feels authentic to these characters in their journey. Part of what I love about Hawks is sort of the unflinching exploration of misogyny in this and any industry, but the specifics of this industry. I don't know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know that you've done exactly

what you do in the finale here, which is the feeling of a woman walking through a door and closing it behind her or telling herself there's only room for one chair at the table and she's in it. Pulling up the ladder, so to speak. Yeah, pulling up the ladder, exactly. Can you talk about that as like, I don't know, either something you've witnessed or experienced or why it was something you wanted to explore specifically. Well, to us, I think it's a very, like, tragic truth about, you know, intergenerational relationships between women. And I've seen it in my real life. And it felt very true to what Deborah's feeling would be, which is that Deborah was forged in the fire of a boys club. And Deborah was for many many years, the only woman on the bill.

And there was room for one woman. And she has seen how women are treated and how the rules are different. And she certainly experienced it time and time again, particularly when her entire career was destroyed with the house fire scandal. And old habits die really hard that way. Because I think, I think understandably for women like her, they become like they're traumatic and they're rooted in that trauma. And it's really, unless you've like done the work, it's really hard to just like let that go. And, you know, I've had conversations with women generations older than me and we've butted heads about certain names. And I'm like, how do you, how do you still think that?

How do you think the world's that way? you know, very, very av of me, annoying. And it's really, I think, so hard because it's like the truth is that you're just such a product of the time you were born, you know, it's just luck. It's like, when were you lucky enough to be born? And what's hard is, in some ways I realize, like when I get frustrated with someone older and I know, why can't you get this? It's like, okay, because I think if they're to realize the world could have been.

different, then they really have to confront how deeply unfair it is. And that is obviously a theme that comes up between Deborah and Ava. You know, like, it's a throwaway joke, but it always said so much to me in the hallway when they run into each other in episode 105, the episode where Jeff Ward, a great actor, jumps up the window and kills himself. Deborah says, like, she comments on how Ava's actually wearing a dress, and she says, when I was your age, I had to do stand-up and a dress in heels. And And Ava's like, sorry I don't. Are you mad at me for it? And Debra's like, yes. And I think that's what it is. I think that it's rooted in, God, this is the way it had to be for me. And as much as I'm maybe glad it doesn't have to be that way for you. And part of the reason it doesn't have to be that way for you is I made it that way. I feel anger at how unfair it is that I didn't get to reap the benefits of that. And I didn't get to go. through that. And so I think

Debra, these feelings and these beliefs about the world are so hardwired in her. And she can override them sometimes. You've seen Debra Vance like grow and she can go to that town hall in episode 8 and actually truly

apologize for those jokes. However, when her back is up against the wall and she finally has gotten this thing she's wanted her entire life and lost so much for it and lost the relationship with Kathy yet again in part due to it. It just, she falls back to her old defense mechanisms, which is to believe the world is one way. And if it cannot be another and this is just how it is and I'm going to lean into that.

And so I think that that is both really sad, but it also feels really true to the person that Vance would be. Well, I think what I loved about that moment, and so much of it is your writing and plenty of it is Gene Smart's performance, is that I was angry at Deborah, but then I also just felt so sorry for her, like so sad. Yeah. And she's so scared that she felt like she had to do that. Exactly.

That's, and again, yeah, incredible performance by Jean, but that's, you know, we've talked about this, always in the show, we try to not have anyone be 100% right or 100% wrong. And in that argument, of course, Deborah's done something so wrong. She's lied to Eva. She's taking this thing away from her. It's not fair. But you also exactly, like you're saying, you're sad for her because you see where she's coming from. She's not, it's not crazy to be scared that taking this risk on Eva and putting a woman in charge and not just going with the guy who's been there.

It's not crazy to think that that could be the thing that gives them an excuse that makes the shift. that makes the show not bulletproof. And so it's really tragic because you understand where she's coming from and you want her just to be a little bit braver for Ava because you love them together so much, but you also get why she can't. Okay, my last question for you is fairly frivolous.

At a screening of the finale, Gene Smart was talking about this season four you guys have been given congratulations. And this idea that now that you're moving into actually like getting to do a late night show story, the opportunity for guest stars to come on and play themselves and be guests on the show, etc. Do you have, is that something you want to talk about

or is your face saying, I don't want to talk about that, Joanna? Like in terms of who do we want to come on? Well, yeah, I mean, like, do you have any dream guests for that? You know, it's interesting. Of course, it's so fun to imagine, like, oh, that person will come on and play themselves and that come up. But I think our view of the late night show, and you'll see when it's out,

and I can't believe how soon it'll be out, is like that it needs, it always, like, the guests on Deborah's late night show need to function the same way that her stand-up did, which is that it needs to inform the story and where she is emotionally. And so it's never just like, the same way it's like, almost like would I be excited to have Deborah do this one-liner?

It's like, of course I'm excited the idea of getting famous people to come on the show. But like, it's hard for me to just pick out one certain person because it needs to tie to what that story will be for that episode. I also will say in the like 10,000, what is it? What is it called when you're like above plane 30,000 foot view? Yeah. is that I've had in my life on writing for TV, it is always such a fool. You always like write something for someone and then it's so hard to get them or like

they say they want to do it. And then their agents like they're passing. Like it's I have such trauma from years and years of TV of like certain people passing or being then like scrambling to be like this role has to. be a celebrity. It has to be a real famous person who we're going to get. So I think I am happy that the goal will just be to like, who is the best person for this story, not just like, let's have fun celebrities on. Why not both is the ideal? Why not both? Yeah, yeah. Well, here you go. Dean Smart is a superstar. Hannah Eindy is a superstar.

Everyone's going to want to just come and hang out with them and act with them. So hopefully we'll we'll have some really fun people. And we've been very, you know, we've had incredible guest stars as you see this season with everyone. So we will, we'll do it. It'll be good. Excellent. Well, thanks so much, Jen. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Always a pleasure to talk to you. All right. Well, that has been it for our season three coverage of hacks here and gone way too quickly. I love this show so much. I am not a programmer at HBO Max. But put it on Sundays and put it out once a week.

100%. Please. Thank you. Bye. This episode was produced by Kai Grady. Thanks for Justin Sales for additional production work. And we'll see you soon. Bye.