The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Heated Rivalry’ Episode 5: Russian Phone Calls | Prestige TV | The Ringer

Episode Date: December 20, 2025

Back by popular demand, Joanna Robinson welcomes Mallory Rubin onto the pod to discuss Episode 5 of Canadian hockey romance ‘Heated Rivalry.’ (00:00) Intro(5:30) Mal’s 'Heated Rivalry' journey(30:10) Rose’s introduction and her use in the plot(36:52) Mal’s take as a sports super-fan(53:00) The All-Star Game(56:00) Ilya’s phone call to home(1:03:00) Hopes and predictions for the finale Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Prestige TV Podcast and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducer: Devon BaroldiAdditional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash term. Welcome back to the Prestiash TV podcast feed. I'm Joida Robinson and joining me today by overwhelmingly popular demand. It is the queen of horny TV herself, Mallory Rubin. Mallory, how are you doing? Joanna, it's the thrill, honor, and privilege of my life to be here with you to talk about this television show. Thank you.

I have the joy of asking you in person when I was in L.A. last week if you would do this. And you were just sort of like, yes, yes, where, when, yes. You were just so excited to talk about heated rivalry. And here we are today. It's Heated Redbury, Episode 5, and we'll be back again for the finale to cover episode 6. So that is your spoiler warning. If you have not watched Up Through Episode 5 of this show, what are you doing? It has been hyped.

You know, I saw it majorly hyped before I watched it, and I watched it a little early. So I was just like, oh, dear Lord, what is going to happen in this episode? And we will talk about all of that. Before we do that, just some, like, quick programming reminders. Rob and I will be back on Friday for Pluribus, the penultimate episode of Pluribus, and then back again next week. So you'll have a heated rivalry episode next week,

and then also a Pluribus finale episode. In that Pluribus finale episode, Rob and I are doing just like a little mini, like end of your mailbag thing. So PrestigeTV at Spotify.com, you have any like larger year-end questions for us? We're just tucking that in at the end of the Pluribus finale podcast. So those are some Christmas week treats for you

coming from the Prestige TV. Can I send an email? Here's what it's going to say. Why haven't you started Landman Season 2 yet? Will I ever watch? Will I ever watch Landman Season 2 is the real question? You had an opportunity to make me watch it, and you chose to make me watch Avatar instead.

So that's on you. I know. Well, we have a podcast to make, you know. It's pretty important that we figured out how to talk about Avatar Fire Rush. One of the biggest movies in the world. I guess so. Okay, so listen, we have, you know,

we're only doing a couple heated rivalry episodes, alas. So we're not doing like a special Prestige TV tailored email address. But Mallory, I wanted to give you the opportunity. If we were to have a Prestige TV email address just for heated rivalry, what do you think it should be called? What an absolute honor it is to be consulted on this proud prestige TV tradition. Okay, so I think a lot of the best suggestions and nominations for this very sexy, very spicy show. I don't know if that's what you want your email address to be.

Right. So I'm going to offer up a few permissible here at our corporate parent, you know. This is the home of John Hans nipple rings at gmail.com. I know, but that's like tame compared to some of what we could toss out here. All right, I'm going to give you a few. And then let me know if you have a favorite among the bunch or any that are better than this, which you probably do. All right, we could just go, of course, with Lily and Jane.

at gmail.com. If you're in the know, you're in the know, you're in the know. Sweet. Ginger ale and vodka. Okay. At gmail.com. You know, I thought that the fact that Ilya had the ginger ale for Shane at his place in episode four was one of the subtlest and sweetest ways to show us that he's paying attention.

And Joanna, I'm not sure if you know this, but paying attention to things. It's how we show love. That's true. If you ever wanted to make me a tuna melt, I'm ready and willing and waiting. Had a great crunch. A great crunch on that tuna melt. I thought. Seemed very, very, very, very tempting.

Scott Hunter is 100,000 years old at gmail.com. Got a real kick out of that text for Amelia in episode five. He's like, there's no way that New York is winning the cup. Scott Hunter is 100,000 years old at gmail.com. Lucky banana socks at gmail.com, if we want to stay on the Scott quarter for a second. What about fuck you, Alexi at gmail.com? Ilya's brother is just a terrible person, so we could cement that.

And then I think we, of course, should consider and probably pick square peg round hole at gmail.com. I'm going to yes and that and say my one submission to your many beautiful ideas was hold not peg at gmail.com. Hold not peg. Well, there you go. I'm the rose putting out the first line. Your Shane building on it coming up with the quote of the season. The quote of the book is I understand it, too, a favorite line that people were delighted by. I'm so excited to hear what research you've been doing into the book world,

et cetera, et cetera. This is episode five. I'll believe in anything, written and directed as all these episodes have been by the great Jacob Tierney. Yes. Only more where our episode ago, which is very sad. Mallory and I are famous for sort of pre-morning the end of a show. There is a second season that's already been greenlit, so that is exciting news. And as Mal alluded to, there's a bunch of books in this series.

So, Mal catches up, like, how is your heated rivalry journey been going? I have the pleasure of sort of being there in the inception when you were like, should I watch this? And I was like, oh, hell yes, you should watch this. And we've been sharing like text back and forth. But like, tell the folks, how's your huge rivalry world going? I'm having the time of my life.

I think this show is fantastic, like genuinely wonderful. Very touching, very compelling, really well made, very sweet, very sexy. I had a, I think, a fairly typical experience. where it was all over my Instagram before I had watched it. Now, I did watch it the week it premiered, like the double, the double premiere drop, right?

So one and two were up. And I watched one and two a couple days after they posted. But in the previous stretch of time, one of the things that we like to do is always compare where our algorithm stands at a given moment, you know, how much of it is,

stranger things, press junket and red carpet, how much of it is heated rivalry? Of course, one of the fun things that happened to me a few months ago was my entire outline, algorithm was the summer I turned pretty, even though I had not watched a second of that show, but such was the force and might.

Yeah, exactly. I consumed it through memes and Instagram reels. Maybe one day I'll watch it properly in full. But Conner Story and Hudson Williams were everywhere. They were all over my Instagram feed in a way that was like, I felt like there was a draw and a magnetism to the experience before I had even consumed it. I was intrigued. I knew I wanted to watch.

I consulted you. You said, definitely do it. Immediately, I loved it. I thought the first two episodes were really great, really fun. But I think that every single episode has been better than the previous one. I thought four was wonderful. I loved the Scott Kipp episode. Three, excuse me.

I thought four was excellent in the end where Shane and Ilya are, you know, looking at each other across the dance floor at the club was just really electric. and five was masterful. Like, I just thought five was a wonderful episode of television, so I'm excited to be here to talk about it today. And it's, like, a little bit different than some of the other episodes. I mean, in this episode, we have three sexual stretches,

but no explicit sex scenes. You know, there's a difference in the cutaway. Yeah, the cutaways. So it feels like we are, you know, evolving inside of the season, though I am expecting a number of very vivid sex scenes in the finale. We'll see. All right. Take a tyranny, don't let her down, man.

No, no, I have some thing is like, nothing in the show has let me down so far. And one of the really fun things has been not only watching it and falling in love with the characters. I've not read the books. I've sort of started to like learn about them, but also cautiously because I don't want the outcome of this season's spoil for me before I finish watching it. But maybe I'm intrigued and maybe I'll check the books out after I finish season one. But just this is like driving so much conversation in my real life. Like so many of the people I know, either our colleagues or pals of ours, are like, are you watching Heated Rivory? Have you watched Heated Rivory? What do you think of Heated

Rivalry? Very rare thing in my life is that I've been out the last two Saturdays at holiday parties. You know, I basically never leave my home. So interacting with, mingling with a number of people is an incredible rarity. Maybe things like this would happen all the time if I went out more. I don't know. But I don't think so. It feels like this is just driving conversation in real time in a notable way. And like at both of these engagements, multiple people were like, I want to talk about heated rivalry. It's just like the thing. We should say these were ringer adjacent parties, both of them.

And, you know, it is a sexy, queer love show, but it is also a sports show. So this is, you know, pop culture and sports. This is ostensibly what we do here at the ringer. So I'm, I'm really excited that this is something that people are talking about. And what's been interesting to me to observe is like, you know, when my pal Richard Lawson was so nice to come on a couple weeks ago

to cover through episodes, we were talking about it as something of phenomenon and I think it has just exploded so much more since then Richard and I were texting back and forth about there's like gay bars in West Hollywood who are screening episodes on a weekly basis you know like there's online controversies there's you know what has happened

you know with the actors the way that they've exploded out of this show is just been like really really fun to watch and it's really exciting as I always say It's really exciting when everyone's watching a thing. And I agree with you that this, from the beginning this started is like something very fun and sexy and entertaining. And then I would say, I think four and five are like, three was good. I think four and five are genuinely great episodes of television. Four or five were amazing.

When we covered it up through three, I was like, can I really make the excuses as belongs in the quote unquote prestige TV feed, which we are very fast and loose with that term anyway? I would not make the same, you know, have the same reservations about four and especially five, I would say. This is definitely prestige television. I wanted to ask you, master doctorate that you are in the ways of all things horny. Thank you. Something that Carr, Storian, Hudson Williams did was get matching sex cells tattoos, which I really love that as like a sort of, we know what we're doing here. and we're aware of it and we're fine with it and you should probably be fine with it too.

But what is it do you think about romance television? Like you just mentioned the summer I Turn Pretty was a phenomenon this summer and that's in like the sort of more teen-centric romance genre or horny television. When you think about like Bridgeton or normal people, like obviously sex sells, this is a thing. But like, is there something going on

that this is the kind of thing we really, really need right now? Or what do you think, what do you think is, or do we always need it and TV is just finally brave enough to give it to us? Like, what do you think? I think like a little column A, little column B, all of the above. Like, I love the tattoos. I love their relationship. I mean, they're wonderful together on the show, obviously. The show doesn't work if they're not wonderful together.

But watching them in all of these interviews and the way that the performers interact and have clearly bonded is just like, it's crackling, the chemistry between them in all respects. And I love that they have leaned into it not only with this tattoo to commemorate their friendship and what this is meant to make this thing together, but this really unapologetic embrace of the sexual aspect of this story and of life and of like discovery, right? Discovering who you are, discovering who you might be with somebody else.

Like that can be for some people an exciting part of life. And like I think people like sex, people like watching sex, people like reading about sex. As you know, because we've talked about this on our podcast, God, House of R, the romance, like the romantasy boom in our universe and the genre side of things is like newer to me, but has been eye-opening, wonderful to discover. Just absolutely wonderful to discover. Talk about something that's dominated my algorithm.

And, you know, I think that, like what you said is, do people always want this? I think, yeah, in some ways people always want it. maybe there's something about this stretch of our lives where there's so much misery in the world every day and it's it feels good to watch people like enjoy something that feels good. You know, we're, we're, it's 2000, end of 2025, December of 2025, like five years since COVID and people were alone and isolated and like the draw of being near each other

and touching each other and undressing each other. It's just like every single aspect of it is, is insulating. I think there's something too about like you read it and you have these really vivid descriptions but also your imagination

and then there's something different about like watching an explicit scene in a show. But I think that the show is sexy in a lot of ways outside of just the sex scenes. The sex scenes are wonderful.

But what can pass in a look or a whisper is also like electric in the show so it's nailed every aspect of that. Very like there's a lot of yearning going on. We love a yearn. We love a yearn. There's a lot of yearning going on. There's a lot of like smirking, you know what I mean? There's just like a lot of knowing glances, all this sort of stuff. I do. I mean, that was always my understanding of why normal people, you know, sort of popped the way that it did was, you know, we were in COVID. We were all disassociating from our own lives and and out of touch from each other, et cetera, et cetera. The fact that this trend has continued where the romance publishing genre, which you and I have talked about on House of R, has exploded. has always been something that was popular, but it has been like people are less covert about their love of romance

and not, for the better, I think. Romance as a, like, in the publishing industry, the romance genre is the most sort of like reliably selling genre, not to mention Romanticy, which is, you know, just even a splinter of that. You've got a bunch of stuff that's coming up from like Emily Henry and Ali Hazelwood, like these romance authors are having all these projects developed, which we will see on TV like coming very soon.

So like this is something that the people who make television and films are cottoning on is something that people desperately want. But I think there has been even post-COVID, just the way we live now is so disconnected. You and I are like, I think as close as people can be, we barely ever see each other. You know what I mean? We conduct our working relationship, but our friendship through screens, you know? That's just like the modern truth of how we live. So I do think that sort of that physicality, that touch, that embrace, that tangible expression of desire. And then also the humanity of it, especially as we're sort of grappling in this AI boom era.

I think that's just like very real, very messy. You can't do this with an algorithm. You can only do it with another person kind of experience is something that I think a lot of people are interesting and embracing. right now. Yeah, and I think there's something too, like, again, I will not deign to claim expertise on the genre in mass here. Like, I just have not consumed enough of it in any form in the printed page or on the screen. But it seems to me my initial foray, and I look forward to continuing to discover more, my initial vera into some of the stories that have pop tracer. Like, again, I didn't watch the summer I turned pretty, but I had a sense, I think, of what.

was driving the Conrad obsession and the collective burying of Jeremiah, right? I think that there are a lot of reasons that people find Reese and Fahara or Zaden and Vai compelling, but like one of them is the old Mark Darcy, like, just the way you are. That's part of it, right? So it's sexy to see people fuck, but like, it's really sexy if the people who are fucking are embracing the totality of the person in their arms. And that is elemental to what we are watching here in heated rivalry, obviously. So I think there's something about that that adds an emotional attachment.

It's almost like our version as readers or viewers of the difference between like a relationship and a one-night stand, right? It feels like deeper in some way. And so people form a little bit more of like not only a, a desire to spend time in that way, but an attachment, an attachment to the people that they're watching fall in love.

We're just fuck a lot. I think also the greatest trick that a romance story can play is the act of separation. How do you keep two people who clearly want each other separated? You know, and in the summer I turn pretty,

I don't need to go into the machinations of that particular love triangle. In normal people, it's sort of like these very deep internal psychological issues that these characters need to work through in order to connect with each other. And here it's, you know, the pressures of being public figures for Elia as, you know, better explored in this episode, being Russian, you know, in the first place.

And then for both of them being in professional sports, being, you know, for Shane in particular, I would say, we see him again and again doing these. like product endorsement deals. You know, this is like a huge source of his income. Could he be the face of this cologne or this soda or this whatever if he comes out as gay? And this is sort of the story that they've told themselves that they cannot be. And then we get, of course, the Kip and Scott moment inside of this episode where they just see like, is this possible for us?

Yeah. Really good. We'll talk about that a little bit more specifically. I just put a few more things before we get into this specific episode. Anything else you want to say about Connor and Hudson? I will say, so Hudson just got picked up by CEA. This is a big deal in terms of, like, you know,

a Canadian actor who has like barely been in anything is now being rep by one of the biggest talent agencies. Like, that's how quickly his star has risen. Also, I've been hearing some chatter about sort of like, you know, Hudson is Shane and Connor's, Connor. Rich trying to talk about this. Connor has, I think, the easiest job. a easier job in that

Elia is the flashier character and what Hudson has to do with Shane is much more reserve, repressed, smaller, quieter and I was talking to a named friend of mine who was like, I'm not sure I think he's a very good performer and I was like I actually think it was interesting

because Rachel Reed gave an interview where she confirmed I guess like a fan theory that Shane was like neurodivergent somewhere on the spectrum and it really and she said that she talked about this with Jacob Tierney and with Hudson Williams and so like his performance is really informed by this idea that Shane is neurodivergent among all the other repressive things that are swirling around him.

And I think there's a lot that he does with a glance, and there's a lot that he does with smaller gestures that actually are really impactful to me. But I'm curious, sort of what you think of these two actors and, like, their potential coming out of something like this. I think there are, it's one of those really, fun experiences where you are exposed to people for the first time. I subsequently realized that I had, I guess, technically seen Conner Story and Joker too. But, you know, how often are we all thinking about that movie? You're just kind of instantly like, these people are going to be a part of our

lives and our shared experience for years to come. I think they're both great. Genuinely, I think they're both great. In the early episodes and early weeks, the Connor story, I mean, Ilya's my favorite character. I love Ilya and Shane, but perhaps unsurprisingly, Ilya is my favorite character.

Right. And the Connor story performance really, like, blew me away in the first couple episodes. I was texting some people in my life, and I was just like, I feel like this guy's about to become one of the, like, a star, you know,

one of the most famous people alive, not just in the like, where are your Instagram followers in real time? Though I have also been tracking that. And I will say one of the fun things about this is that they're like really staying at pace with each other. It's clear that everyone's following both of them in the same time. But, you know, we're banking this a tiny, tiny bit early.

And I think at like the time of our recording, they were both already like half a million. Two weeks ago, they had like 80,000 followers, like when I started following them. So rapid ascent on Instagram, which is an N indicator, but not the only indicator, certainly of Star Potential. You know, they're on magazine covers. there everywhere.

And Connor's story just felt to me, like, you know, you and Richard talked about this the kind of like, okay, casting directors are going to be paying attention. You could just feel instantly like this is, what's he being cast in like right now? You know, and I think some of it is that he is on screen to me just like a stick of dynamite.

It's explosive and powerful and very compelling. And I think that his performance, I mean, obviously there are the very like, oh my God, you had to learn Russian in a week aspects of it. I loved a little wink inside of episode five. Like, yeah, you could learn it in a week. Like, with no accent, you know.

Really great. You know, learning to play hockey and skate to the extent that like the actual hockey is a huge part of the show, which it really isn't, but hockey culture obviously is. Right. And the way that he is speaking Russian, like to my ear, which is of course not an expert year, what appears to be flawlessly, I don't know.

It seems to me amazing. I've gotten like a little feedback from people. people who speak Russian, who are like native Russian or Ukrainian. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. And they're like, it sounds a little like, you know, Rusky to them. But it reminded me of, I don't know if I ever told this story, I used to live with Ukrainian. And I would like try to match his accent. And like one time I called him and I was just like doing the, doing the accent on the phone. And I was like, how do I sound? He says, you sound perfect from wherever you are from. And like, it's just

sort of like, it's consistent. It sounds great because it's just super. It sounds great because it's just super consistent. And so I just like, we can buy in really easily because it just sounds like, it sounds, yeah, consistent. I wasn't like surprised

to see some interviews, you know, in my Instagram algorithm where people are like, wait, you're not Russian as like an opening question. And so I think that that performance

kind of like bowls you over right away and has become, in a way that I've really enjoyed, subtler and quieter over the episodes, as Ilya, the character who was more like outwardly,

at least with Svet or Shane, this is who I am. It's okay to like what you like. It's okay to want what you want, but I can, as we hear him, you know, just explicitly say in this episode, like, I can't go home to Russia ever again if I say this out loud.

And then Hudson's performance is the one that has really grown on me across the season. And I'm most like so moved watching him in the last couple episodes. And I think that the, all of the things that you said and just in general, like the fact, it feels to me right for all of the reasons,

all of the aspects of Shane's life and his circumstances and the things that he is navigating. And the fact that he is, his journey is like a sexual journey and a journey of discovery and identity, but it is also, it's like a journey of understanding himself, right? And so like the quieter, more reserved, shy aspects of it, I think the way that the show has made text of that

inside of their relationship where Ilya, like, you know, ribs him for being boring and stuff like that, really expert and very sweet. And I just think they're both great. They're great. It reminds me a bit of our discussion of Heartstopper where you've got one character who has come out and knows he's queer and one character who's discovering his sexuality.

And so you have someone who's on a whole different journey. And so Shane coming to terms with his own sexuality is part of this whole thing. It feeds very much into the romance novel trope of he felt first. he fell harder. Like that sort of back and forth I think is really interesting. Last thing I'll say, and I noticed it particularly in this episode,

I was already making this sort of like Hudson Williams, young Keanu comp in my head, these like Canadian hunks or whatever, but I really do think that they're styling Conner's story as Ilya a bit like Patrick Swayzey and Dirty Dancing.

He's wearing a lot of black tank tops in this episode, which is like classic Swayze Dirty Dancing to me. Which then, of course, made me think about Keanu and Swayze in Point Break, which is, I think, one of the queerest movies has ever existed. So I'm here for it. I'm here for all of it. One last thing I want to say before we get sort of like in the specifics of this episode a bit more than I have, you know, tank talks to the side. It's just on the business front, just talking really briefly.

We've got a really interesting email from our listener, Montana, about what's called CanCon or Canadian content. and Montana was just basically outlining the way in which because of the various rules of Canadian television in terms of like funding you can get, tax breaks you can get, there's rules about how Canadian content has to be produced. And it has to do with like 50% of what's aired in Canada has to be Canadian grown, homegrown. And also in terms of like sending Canadian content into the world,

the impulse has been to be quite conservative. Like we don't get too flashy, we don't get too experimental with our content. We farm out fairly stayed, I don't know, Ella Montgomery-based content or the case may be. And she said you've seen a bit of growth in that area with like Schitt's Creek or Letterkenny and Shoresy,

a show that I know that you really love. Love Shorzy. But she's like, this is just like a huge leap of bound to have heat of rivalry, which is streaming here on HBO, So I'm sure plenty of people in the U.S. just think it's an HBO show, and that's fine. That happens all the time who really cares. But it is a huge deal, I think, for Canadian television.

And there was a really interesting interview with some of the executives behind this. I usually leave the TV business talk to Chris and Andy. They know much more than I do. But I thought this piece in The Anchler, an interview with Leslie Goldberg, from the guys who sort of went all in on this show and took a huge risk and how the risk has paid off for them was really, really fascinating. So I recommend that as like if you're interested in sort of what does this mean for the television landscape as a whole, you know, no pun, sorry, no pun intended phrasing, but like I think that like, sorry, I just said it and then I heard it. But like, I think the summary turned pretty and heated rivalry popping the way they did means, of course,

we will get more romance television. We will get like more sex friendly television. That's all great. What does it mean for like Canadian exports? I'm excited to see, you know, like, I think that's really interesting. So, last one at least, Montana did recommend, I haven't watched it, but Montana said, if you want more great,

CanCon, to watch, I definitely recommend North of North on Netflix, too. I haven't watched it, but it sounds like something I might want to

check out over the holiday break, if it's got the stand of approval. Anything else do you want to say in a big picture sense before we get into specifics of episode five? Oh, I guess just on the time jump front, I'm like so intrigued to know

that a season two is coming, because we start in 2008 and in this episode we're up to 2017. So we've watched these two characters and five episodes of TV, really four, because they're briefly in the Scott Kippe episode in episode three, but that episode was an Orior End around Ilya and Shane.

And so we've spent a decade with them and we have one to go. And the fact that there's a season two, because knowing there are multiple books that are on multiple characters, I was like, I wonder... Like, how central will they be in season season? But like,

they're so, they're so central to the fan, experience, and relationship to the show. It seems like everyone is just saying, we're doing a season two, and Shane and Ilya's story will continue, and that there are ongoing Shane, Alya plots in the book, so that I don't know, like,

to season two take place over six months? Or does season two continue to move us through time? I have no idea, because I haven't wanted to spoil it for myself. But I found it a little disorienting in the first episode to so rapidly move across the calendar. But now, toward the end of the season, it has given us this, like, you know, sense and feeling that we've lived these years with them and have a deeper understanding of what they've meant to each other over time and what else has happened around them in their lives,

even though, like, five hours of TV is just ultimately not that much. So it's been interesting. To watch them go from, like, I mean, they're essentially teenage, right? They're like 19, 20, maybe in the first episode. To watch them go from, like, rookie of the year, whatever the case may be, to captains of their respective teams. Yeah, and to think about what it means to try to engage in this, both in time in the history of what it means to be out and queer in the U.S., Canada, Russia, et cetera, over the span of a decade, that particular decade. And then in your life as a teenager versus like someone who's pushing 30 at that point. Right. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market.

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All right. We're going to get into the episode now more specifically and just say, first and foremost, I can't believe we've gone this long without talking about our babe from our yellow jackets coverage, Sophie Nalice. Unbelievable. Who has a killer scene in this episode as Rose, but it was, of course, very, very integral to episode four. I texted you before you watch episode four and I was like, I was like, Sean is here.

Unbelievable. Yeah, she comes. I loved this dinner scene. It was so beautiful. The way that both Rose and Svetlana inside of this episode and in the way of all people like, you know,

Hudson's BFF on his team or whatever the case would be is just sort of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, Jane and Lily, like, we get it. I don't care. Go do your thing. But I just, I loved this scene. I thought it was really, really beautiful. And I loved the parting of the ways, too,

and this genuine just sort of like, let's be friends. No, really, let's be friends. Yeah. And then they're on the scene. phone with each other at the end of the episode and you have no reason to believe that that like won't be the case moving forward. I also thought this was great. Always wonderful to see young Shauna.

You know, it's, it takes me to the wilderness right away, of course, and not the only Yellow Jackets cast member here and our heated rifle. Correct. Correct. So that's been, that's been quite fun. One of the things that I've loved about the season so far and the Shane Rose storyline is one of the ways in which we got this is just how Ilya and Shane observe each other's lives from afar.

You know? So if... Via, like, social media or... Yeah, like, well, one of them is in... News. Didn't, you know, make it as far... Like, they're not fighting for the cup that year. The other one is, and they're watching on the screen.

Or, yes, in news conference, whatever the case may be. And they're, like, so happy for each other. Everyone else is like, fuck, Rosenoff. And yeah, the way that Ilya, who can say all he wants, including in this episode, like it's simple for me. Like, you know, we meet up, we fuck.

And then, of course, later in the episode, I can't wait to talk about that scene. That's not where he is with it, of course. The doom scrolling of every paparazzi shot of Shane and Rose and comments about how like, oh my God, this is our favorite couple. and the relationship we're most obsessed with all of it. That's just really, I think,

smart as a technique to allow us to glimpse something that maybe they're not ready to totally fully admit to themselves. The dinner scene with Shane and Rose, I agree, I just thought was like really lovely, and both of their performances were wonderful. I think that was one of

the best scenes that Hudson has delivered inside of the season. I mean, the, across those few minutes, the reluctance and shame and I think actually fear, like somebody is about to ask me the thing that I've been afraid, they're going to ask me. And then the palpable weight lifted that he has finally been able to say this to one person.

And like, it wasn't just okay, it was wonderful, you know? It was like just so beautifully and artfully captured. And then the like, you know, like the hand over his mouth and the little giggle with like the thing is, I kind of prefer being the whole. rather than the peg. Just such a great scene. I really loved it. And I thought that from an editing

and like filmmaking perspective, the stretch where Rose says, can I ask if you've ever been with another guy and he just quick little nod? And then have you ever told anyone that before? Head shake. Was it different? Yeah, of course, was it better?

And between each of those questions, we're flashing to different moments that Shane and Ilya have shared. And some of them were like, you know, was it different, was it better? They're tearing each other's clothes off. like they can't wait to put each other in bed and get in bed with each other.

But like the one of the moments that we saw was just that quiet, tender little kiss in the stairwell. Which is my favorite, like one of my favorite moments of the season so far. That's the totality of their love story with each other in little glimpses. I just thought that was great. I will say, so something that, you know, Jacob Tierney has said in interviews is that he's like, this is expensive for a Canadian production, but dirt cheap for an American production. So, like, you know, he's like made this with very little money. I think this is a quite beautiful show.

It looks great. Like, as I, as I, as I, as I, as I know, you know, like, we're both familiar with Jacob Turney's work with Letterkenny and Chorzie, you know, and I know that I knew that he was talented. He's, he performs on both of those shows, a writer, director, et cetera. I knew, I knew that he was talented. I didn't know that he had this level of sort of artistic eye necessarily in me, because, in him because that's not really what Letterkenny

and Shorzie necessarily are about, though there are some moments of Leder Kennedy that I would give that to, but like, I just I'm so excited to say, you know, obviously he's going to do a season two, but like what else is Jacob Tierney going to get to do after this? That really excites me too. So, yeah, I thought

the way that scene is lit in this like golden glow and the hush intimacy of like a nearly empty restaurant and even though they're like two of the most famous people in the world, they're in this sort of like beautiful private bubble so often over-exposed, but in this, like, actually, let's be honest, let's have this conversation moment. A little cocoona safety.

And I thought even then just the transition to, like, walking outside to the street corner, but continuing their conversation was a good way of indicating. And now we take the next step. And then the next step. You know, I thought, yeah, all of that was just, it's subtle, but it's very effective inside of the episode. Here's what I can say with certainty about hockey. I dated a hockey player for several years in college. Great person, wonderful, the best.

Hands out of a hockey glove is some of the worst smelling things you've ever experienced in your entire life. I have no comp for it. And I understand that all sports equipment gets rank, there's something extra level about a hockey glove. And so that has just been on my mind throughout this. just like thinking about the hockey hands. So that's my level of expertise I can bring to this. Mallory, you're more of a in the sports world than I am obviously. I know you went to a Shoresy hockey event this past week.

I saw our beloved Sutsbury, blueberry bulldogs in person. It was electric. So like A, this is something that, you know, I remember Bill talking to us about how the soccer looked on yellow jackets. How does the hockey look for you on this show? And then I also just kind of wanted. to talk to you. I talked to Richard about this a little bit, but like, we're in 2017. Like, where are we in terms of, like, queerness and pro sports? Like, where is the level of

acceptance either in hockey or just, like, across, you know, the pro sports world at this point? In terms of the, how are the hockey scenes? Like, how is the actual hockey? So let me, let me say this. I'm a sports obsessive. Hockey is the main. Hockey is the main. major pro sport I spend the least time with. Sure. I'm married to a passionate Colorado avalanche fan. Actually, Colorado got a shout out in episode five in the Ilya Svetlana conversation. So that was fun.

But, you know, growing up in Baltimore, like Baltimore doesn't have a NHL team. And I would never root for a Washington team, for Washington, D.C. team, obviously. So I wasn't going to root for the capitals. And then, like, when I went to Syracuse, they had an H.L team. so I went to a lot of crutch games. I think it's really fun to see hockey live. When I lived in New York, I went to a lot of hockey games. I don't really go in.

I've been to like one L.A. King's game. Just sort of sad to say. I've lived here for nearly 13 years. Anyway, so I don't feel necessarily like I'm dialed into, I kind of can't help but think about that when I'm watching a football show. Sure. Or a baseball show or a basketball show. It's not as top of mind for me watching a hockey show.

I don't know that the hockey is the best, but I think that's okay because, again, it feels much more about the culture of hockey and the visibility of being a very famous person. You know, they're supposed to be the two best players in the sport, and their celebrity is kind of undeniable, right? So I think the show is more interested in, like, what does it feel like in that locker room? Or at the espies or whatever the comp is that they attend?

Yeah. At the player hotel at the All-Star game. I was glad to get an All-Star game here because, as I think I've mentioned you before, I would like to get a Ilya Rosanov hockey sweater, a jersey, but I would never, ever, ever wear a Boston jersey, obviously. I'm from Baltimore and Boston is a rival sports city, so I can't buy a Boston Raiders jersey that's unthinkable. But maybe the East team, All-Star jersey.

If they sell that, like I could consider it at least. And, you know, also that's the moment when Ilya and Shane got to be teammates. Who's going to center who? Great. Great stuff. Would you wear Montreal metros? Would you wear New York admirals? No, I would never wear in New York.

I mean, other than Syracuse, where I went to college, like a New York City team. Got it. Absolutely not. Though I am a big fan of Hot Scott, of Hot Scott Hunter. So, yeah, it's got to be the All-Star jersey. It's a Montreal-Hollander jersey, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Okay.

I would at least consider it. I would consider it. In terms of your second question about how the show is placed in time and engaging with its timeline, you know, I think, so first of all, I will not claim like encyclopedic expertise here, obviously. But I think this feels very right and very real to me in terms of what any player would be navigating or, thinking about in this time. But I think especially in the, obviously in the, in the, in the, universe of heated rivalry, it's the MLH, not the NHL, but like, it's the NHL, right? Yeah. So in the, and they're Russian and Canadian, but the NHL, it's an American sports league, you know, in the, the major

leagues, the four major sports leagues, the NHL, the NFL, MLB, and NBA, It is incredibly rare still for a player to be out. Like, I think a lot of sports fans who follow closely would be able off the top of their heads to name key moments where players came out. And like, on the hockey front, I mean, so recently, Sean Avery, who played in the NHL for years, he said, he gave an interview and he said,

like, he thought maybe that this show could actually help encourage a player in the NHL to come out. Luke ProCop, who was drafted in 2020 by the National, the National Predators, he's in the HL. He came out in 2021, so one year after being drafted. And when he did that, he was the first player to come out while under an NHL contract, the first in 2021. Now, I want to be clear that that's not the same as saying the first

professional hockey player to ever come out. I'm drawing the distinction here between the major leagues. So that was like, that's notable, right? That that was in 2021 and he was the first Wallander and NHL contract. In the NBA,

Jason Collins, there's a very, very, very famous Sports Illustrated cover. He became, and this was 2013, so inside the timeline of the show, he became the first openly gay.

NBA player. He came out. There was a cover story about it. And he was the first active male athlete in any of the four major North American sports to come out while actively playing. 2013. Football

Michael Sam outstanding college linebacker at Missouri. He came out in 2014 heading into the NFL draft. Now, I think you will,

there are people out there who would say, he tested poorly at the combine, he was undersized for a linebacker. He was projected as a mid-round pick. He fell to the seventh round. He was drafted. He was drafted by the Rams. He ended up playing for,

briefly for the Cowboys practice squad, the Dallas Cowboys practice squad in 2014, and then he played in the CFL. So he became the first openly gay player to play in a CFL game in 2015. team. So inside the timeline of the show. And then more recently, Carl Nassib, he's a defensive end, he became the first openly gay active NFL player. This was a really big moment. He was playing for the Raiders. He came out in 2021. He played for the Raiders and then the box wall while out.

I saw a great inter, I just got, I guess I'm being sort of queer athlete content now on Instagram, so they're like, do you want this? So they gave me an interview where Carl was talking about, I don't know if you've heard this story where he was like, before he was out, he was like playing a game and they were doing some maneuver, the opposite team was doing some maneuver that I didn't understand what he was talking about, but he was frustrated.

And so I think he like called them gay asses or something like that. And he was like, four of them turned around and said, you can't fucking say that. And he was like, this was a real moment to me where I was like, oh, there are allies here for me. Like that made him feel safe to like take a step forward and come out. And I was like, oh, I love that story. And he was like, and I was confronted with my own ignorance inside of my own, like, queer experience, which is really interesting.

I'm thinking a lot about, thank you so much for that contest, thinking a lot about Shane and Ilya and the, if you want to call it, advantage that Elia has in his bisexuality, in that he can, like, go out with his teammates and, like, have sex with a woman and, like, sort of like perform, quote, heterosexuality in a way that, like, Shane, is trying to with with rose but like really struggling with but like in terms of like code switching and passing or whatever like ilia has this advantage of his bisexuality not you know not to like talk about things I don't understand but that is something that I think is like interesting to think about inside of their different experiences one thing to be gay which Shane makes very clear he is inside of this episode and as he points out it's a different thing to be bisexual inside of this world. And I think that that is, I think it's really compelling to have those two differences, you know, with the biracial element for Shane or the, you know, back home and Russia

element for Ilya or, you know, or Shane's parents being so involved and supportive. But what kind of pressure does that put on you, you know, with his like momager and all this or stuff like that. So I just think like, yeah, all of that context is really interesting to me. Yeah. And I think, again, like, that's. certainly not a comprehensive list when you and Richard potted. Like Richard mentioned some Olympians who are out. There are tennis players, soccer players. You know, there's some MLB players who came out after they're playing days.

There are some active minor leaguers who have come out while playing in the minor leagues. There are more openly gay players in women's leagues, of course. I think part of this is like this macho male locker room culture and the stigma and the fear of how you will be treated if you say, this is who I am and this is who I love. And I think on the one hand, we are, of course, seeing every day that there's more like acceptance and love and an embrace and more people who have grown up with really progressive, healthy, open attitudes about all sorts of things, right? Sexuality and gender expression among them, and that's great.

But of course, there are still plenty of people full of hate and people who are prejudiced and bigoted. And that's a scary thing. Even if there are a number of people around you who might surprise you by how welcoming they are, or you see acceptance all around you for other people all the time, I think that the show is right to acknowledge that for those guys in that position, it would feel like a massive thing. And I thought without knowing that the Scott Kipp story was actually the first book, like when I watched the third episode, I didn't know that that was actually where the Game Changer series started. It felt to me like, you know, there are moments earlier in the show where like, Scott's like,

well, what did you guys just like say to each other or like your boy, not my boy, right, all that? And it felt like, okay, we're going to learn more about Scott. It feels like I was not expecting a full standalone episode. But then when we got it, it felt to me like this must be. be here because we are going to, because Scott is going to be the trailblazer, because he will come out and as like the, to Ilius point, a hundred thousand year old Scott Hunter, like old guard that like what a powerful thing. And it would be a powerful thing for anybody at any age and experience, of course, to be clear. But like it felt like we were going to get this moment where

Scott made this choice and it changed something about the league. I don't know if this is context in the book. And it was really funny. When Richard and I did the episode a couple weeks ago, I heard from a lot of people saying how weird it was for them to have read the books and I had it. They were like, this is a really odd experience to listen to like a Joanna podcast where you haven't read the books. So Richard and I were like, will Scott and Kip come back this season or whatever? And they're like, you dummies, we know how important they are to the story. But it was, I'm curious like how much the fact that like, you know, we keep hearing these people talk about Scott being washed up. He's towards, he's at the end of his career. He's an old-timer.

So he gets the cup this season. Right. Does he then retire? Like, is he done? You know what I mean? That would be my expectation. And does that just change? He's just like, this is it. I did it. I got the cup. Fuck all the like radio announcers in my ear during my runs and stuff like that. I get to smooch my boyfriend and then I get to say, fuck you to the to the league. You know what I mean? That would be my guess. Right. And so different stakes. Yeah. And I think that's another, it's kind of just a continuation of what we were just saying where I think the show and this obviously the book, the story in general, this world, it feels really honest because, you know, my feeling, you're feeling, I hope the feeling that many, many, many people watching this carry with them

is like, it's so, and sports fans in real life, like, it's, this is fucking sad. It's tragic. If you feel like you can't live your life proudly and openly, that's like a terrible, terrible thing. But it is honest to acknowledge that that's the. reality that a lot of people find themselves in still, even when we would like to think that a lot of people have made a lot of progress and grown a lot. There are plenty of terrible people out there every day who make you feel like you can't be who you are. So yeah, if Scott is like, you know, the episode ends with, I thought that the, everything with Scott and Kim was just wonderful. The camera moving just slightly in toward Ilya and then Shane and the looks on their faces,

like, I was getting, I was like, breathless. them watch Scott hearing the announcers be like who's this lucky fan? Is it a family? The hell of the ice. Big day for him if so. It's like, buddy, you have no idea.

It's really great. And I want to shout out, again, I already mentioned like Rose and Svetlana, but Elena, who is Kipps, like BFF, who's there with him. Like, I just thought that was like a really great character who's had very little screen time to like really sort of endear herself to me

and make herself part of this story. But, like, I loved, I love that. And then, then Ely is like, you know, Shane being surrounded by his parents as he's watching this, you know. And then the Elyah phone call. I do want to zoom back and say, anything you want to say about the All-Star game section, I was, like, particularly really endeared to the Elya with kids in the pool. That was just, like, very charming while he was still being himself, but also just, like, very playful with these kids and involving Shane in this moment was just like really, really, like, sweet.

And, you know, and then the, like, sexy slow-mo he gets out of the pool and Shane is watching. Shaking off the pool water. Really good. Listen, a heated rivalry contains multitudes, but it is not a heated rivalry episode if we have not seen Ilya's astonishing packs and or glutes at some point in the episode. Yeah. The mole array on his chest must be. Yeah. So we needed that. There's a shot in this episode when he's like brooding back home in Russia drinking vodka. I was like, why is your shirt off? I go, fine. Okay. Sure. I guess so. You know, the hotel room convo that's a part of the All-Star Game stretch, we don't see the sex scene after the conversation that they have. But when we cut to Shane leaving, Ilya is shirtless and bed behind us. So we... The bedding is rumpled.

It's, yes. In disarray, I would say. It is. I really like the All-Star Game Stretch. I thought that the bar scene was another good example to me of like the subtle way to show us how their relationship has progressed. You know, the fact that just like they are sitting next to each other for that long talking and engaging with each other. I mean, these are characters. There are a few episodes many years, but a few episodes ago, it was like, we, anybody can see us.

Like, why would we be talking? We're arch rivals, you know? So little things like that, I thought that the moment where Shane was like, don't make fun of me, but I got a stylist was just a, just incredible. Absolutely perfect. And then in the game, you know, the fact that they get to be teammates for one beat here instead of rivals and this question of like, they're both center, so who's going to get to play center?

And then, you know, Ilya assists on a Shane goal and they get to celebrate together. And like, that smooches the helmet. Yeah, the kiss on the side of the helmet. Like, they're not afraid. less worried about who's watching and what people might think, not because all of these big questions are not so present in their lives, but because there's a magnetism and a pull to each other. Shane says it in this hotel room conversation. He's like, I can't keep pretending I don't like you, you know, and I think that the stretch captured that really well, just that authentic need

they have to like share life with each other, share moments with each other. There's also a kind of classic romance novel progression inside of certain work. worlds where they go from calling each other by their last name to call each other by the first name. So we like first get in episode four and that like sex scene that becomes like too real and Shane Bales as he sort of cops do inside of this episode. But then you get the repeat of it inside of this episode when he leaves and they're much more like, you know, there's still unspoken things. There's still Elyas saying like it can't be like this, you know, all this or something like that. But there is the just sort of like, good night, Shane, good night, Elyla sort of moment.

in which they're much more settled. It's like in the throes of passion the first time. And then it's just in this much more settled version inside this episode. Yeah, like you take a bye to your person and you call them by their name. It's great. So I thought in the hotel room conversation where Shane is like, I have this big thing to tell you. You know, and I'm like, yeah.

And she's like, sorry if I'm like boring, but this is a big deal to me. I thought all of that was great. And I loved in particular in this conversation about like what they want. when Shane said it felt like we were something. You know, he's apologizing for getting scared and bailing, but he's like, it did feel different. It was different. And Ilya tells him, you know, we can't be something.

And I loved when Shane said, would you want to be if we could, which just, I don't know, felt like such a perfect encapsulation of where they are. Like there are all these real questions. But what do you want? Do you want me? And Elia, not answering. And, like, Elya does not answer that.

In my head, I'm like, that's not what he asked. Then she's like, that's not what I asked. I was like, thank you. Good job for saying that. Yeah. And then before we get to the phone call, which I can't wait to talk about, just the little moment here where I kind of breaks and he starts to cry talking about his father. And just the way that Shane held him and comforted him.

You're like, crawled into his lab and holds him. Yeah. And then that's the moment that we cut away when normally we would be, you know, the camera would be the third participant in their sex scene. It's like because in that moment, like that's the depth of their intimacy. That's what the connection is. We're not invited to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just love to that. Interesting. Okay. And then we get, you know, among many other things, there's the injury. There's all these things that happen. There's a tell them all be fine. He'll worry. But I think at least sort of like the last thing I really want to talk about is this phone call

where Elia is speaking in Russian. And she is just listening. Like, and what a beautiful thing for. Shane to think of, just sort of like speak in Russian and I will like listen to anything. Anyway, I really did think that Hudson's performance here of just sort of like hanging on every word to like sort of see what you could understand from tone or word. I got, I got worried for a second because I was like, well, he definitely heard Svetlana, but that's not like what he's going to say or like, have you Googled how to say love in Russian because it's in there or something like that.

So like, but the listening and then, of course, like Connor as Ilya performing and like saying the thing that he can't say, you know, and he's in this like tunnel graffiti like laden tunnel and just sort of like outside and not alone in a room inside, but outside vulnerable in a space that is unfriendly to this kind of confession saying something in his native tongue in a space where someone could. hear him. There's no one really around, but someone could hear him, but not able to say it yet to Shane. Yeah. And I can't remember if I said this to Richard when we recorded earlier this week, but I have said it recently, so I'll just say it again. There's a thing I do sometimes when like, especially when it's a show about romantic tension, and I call it like the Fleaback Season 2 effect where I just like lean closer and closer to the TV screen. as I'm just sort of like, what's going to happen here? That's how I was like, during, you know,

in all the sex scenes, I'm like, I know what's going to happen. But during this phone call, I'm like, what is he going to say, what I really hope he will say? And then he does. And it's like, Shane doesn't know, but also does he kind of know? And it's just a really beautiful piece of television. This was my favorite scene of the season. I mean, I just thought I was crying.

Yeah. This was so good. And again, great Hudson performance across the season, I think in particular in this episode, you know, when he's in the hospital bed and he's like, drugged up high, shade, he's like, hey, very great, the comedic range, et cetera. But I agree with you. I think these just like, the camera just still on his closed eyes and the way that his attention is so apparent, right?

There is nothing in the world more important to him than being present in that moment for Ilya in the way that is right for Ilya, who is the person in need right then. I just thought it was lovely. You and Richard talked about the text messaging when you guys potted after season three and how like, you know, that can go so wrong in a show. It can be just really a debacle on a show and how this show is actually used it quite well, I think, not only to like give us little insights into how they're communicating, but obviously it on. locks to like, oh, how's, how's Boston Lily or, you know, not the way you love Jane, like you observed already, the observation that other people in their close, close inner circle orbits, like have about who they're interacting with, even just as a way to kind of show us where we are in time, like, oh, we're at the, the, the, the, I message, like, blue bubble arrow, you know,

like things like, it's actually been kind of helpful, like going from emoticons to emoji. This was an even better example, I think, to me, of how the show has used technology to heightened intimacy instead of stifle it. Because, you know, the deployment of technology in a like a relationship, it can be, just bad, but it can also be like a cheat. You're trying to like fast forward something that we don't totally understand.

And in some ways, that is maybe a reflection, actually, of how people interact in modern life, right? I'm old and washed and I've been married for a thousand years. So I'm not the best person to comment on how the kids out there are talking to each other these days. But what this phone call did, it's like it doesn't matter at all that he doesn't speak or understand Russian because this is asking us a question, like, can you feel the truth for the other person, right? Can you sense what they are thinking and what they want and what they need even if they can't or haven't said it to you? And that is, even though there are a lot of steps that they have to take together still.

And, you know, the episode ends on Ilya saying after telling Shane at the hospital, like, I can't, you know, I can't do that. I can't go to the cottage. You know, and we had watched him. This is another how they watch each other. One of the things that he was watching, that Ilya was watching on TV in a prior episode was Shane talking about his cottage and how it was like his favorite place in the world and the place where he felt beat.

Shane's Cribbs episode essentially. Exactly. And like, Mr. Real Estate. We got it out later. So good. Oh, something that I, something I didn't know that the book readers informed me was like earlier in the season when they were talking about he got this apartment, you know, he got this one apartment in Montreal. And then he bought the apartment next door. And he was talking about how he's like, oh, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it, et cetera, et cetera.

It's an investment. Yeah. But what the book readers are saying is that he like bought the apartment next door so that he could like fuck Ilya up there essentially, just like bought. Does your, you know, sexual partner care about you if he doesn't buy out an entire floor of a high-rise so you can just, like, be as loud as you want to be? Where is our fuck palace? That's my question to every romantic partner from here onward. There you go. So, yeah, I thought that scene was great and the episode was great and the show was great.

It's great. It's all I should say about that. I do, I, okay, I'm embarrassed. I don't like usually love to admit being. dumb. But here we go. It took me way too late to realize that like Jane sounds like Shane and Ilya and Lily are like close together. It took me like way too long to figure that. I'm like really embarrassed by that. But what I love inside of this episode, we get, we understand because we know how stories work that like Ilya ignoring Alexi's like repeated phone calls probably means like he's

ignoring something that's happening with his dad that is probably going to like, you know, come to haunt him. So that's necessary for purposes. But also there's just this sort of like, ignore and roll your eyes at every single Alexi phone call, but any buzz that happens to be, Shane, you are like reading it, you are smiling and blushing at your phone.

You are just sort of like enjoying your, your, any, like any crumb from this other person just like lights up your day. You know, it's just like really beautiful. Last but not least, I will just say. The finale is called. the cottage and I'm like very, very excited to see what we see there. I mean, a cottage on like a private lake. We should be, we should be fucking on every surface. Every surface, indoor and

outdoor of the cottage and surrounding grounds, I expect to see sex. And high Shane, pain medicine and Shane was like, we could have one week. We could have two weeks. Who knows? I will say his parent, in the Cribs episode, they did say that his parents, like, like summer home or whatever is nearby. So that is, uh, information we have. Follow up question. Yeah. Will, what will, what will Shane stock the fridge with? Is it coronas? Is he going to be making tuna melts for Elia? Like, are we getting some like good vodka? What are we, what are we doing to show that we pay attention and that? That's a great question. Um, you know, Shane's like food intake, his macros have, have been a through line of obviously he's like,

yeah, I'll have a beer now. But I don't know. I think the question is, Ilya seems a little more, I was surprised to see all like the, it was like a lot of ingredients in Tupperware. Like he's doing meal prep as well. So I know,

this is a great question. I was so curious about the stack of Tupperware is for the tuna melt. That means the tuna salad is pre-made. Okay. Maybe the cheese is pre-shredded. Okay. Yeah. I do that.

That's great. Lettuce, lettuce leaves? Like, do we put lettuce on a tutemout? I guess? Some people, you know? Yeah. If the tuna, if the tuna salad itself has already made them, presumably, because you could have like some celery or, you know, if you put onion or something for texture and then you're mixing it up, but the tuna's already made, then what are all the other type of

our four? I mean, I don't think it's, it was, it was one tub or too many that I was like, what is, what is this for? Do we, oh, maybe like, yeah, we put pickles on our tuna melt. I don't know. Anyway. Some crunch. Yeah. Russians do love a pickled item is something that I know is to be true.

Okay. Anything else you want to say about heated rivalry episode five? Oh, boy. Just can't wait for the finale, but also sad it's ending. So that's the familiar push full of the end of the TV season that we've loved. Yeah, the reminder that the parents are nearby is a great one because my expectation, and again, I genuinely have no idea what is coming in these books. I'm pure on the spoiler front.

I have no intel here. My expectation would be, to your point about Scott and how he was like, all right, I'm 40, I've won the cup. You know, we've even heard him say to Kip in episode three, basically like, I do want this like one day after. Yeah, give me time. Give me a year. Give me a couple years, something like that. And so I feel like there's going to be this search after watching what they watched into the cottage stretch. And then probably probably.

a kind of a conversation, maybe exactly about that. Like, okay, but like, he just announced he's retiring. He's out of the league. It's not the same and that maybe that will cause some tension if one of them is ready for something that the other one isn't. And of course, you could come out without revealing your relationship with each other. But I wonder if the big move in the finale is Shane coming out to his parents. I don't expect that either of them to go public in the finale if we're getting a season two.

That's just my guess based on the fact that season two is coming. But I don't know. I don't know how the book. I think there are two Shane and Iliocentric books. There's like a mid-series book and then towards the end of the series book. So I don't know. Same. Please don't spoil me via email or tweet.

I don't want to know. But here's my guess, not knowing. I would say his dad, who when his mom was like come to Wimbledon for the girls, essentially, And his dad was like, really? Sit next to a princess, yeah. I believe his dad definitely already knows. And I think his mom probably knows, but is like, so I would say his dad is going to be fine and his mom is going to have but the business issue with it.

And what will that mean for their future? Stay tuned to season two to find out. But that's a guess that I have based on zero information from the book, but just based on, like, the breadcrumbs have been laid so far. I'm excited for us for the cottage montage of every surface and definitely a lot of swimming montages. We got a lake right there. Some skinny divvy for sure. No question.

No question. I love that. Okay. Mallory Rubin, thank you so much. Thank you. For hopping over. Talk to me on here every week. Guess what?

If you enjoy Joanna and Mallory talking about men in love who are separated. and one of them sort of flamboyant and a bad boy and the other one is a bit more repressed. We will be covering interview of the vampire season two later this week on House of Arr, as well as one of the biggest movies of the year that Mallory had to force me to see, even though it should be my job to see,

Avatar Fire, and Ash, as well as a couple of trailers that are going to be... We're doing all of that as part of our annual gift exchange over on House of Our later this week. We'll also be covering the rest of Stranger Things in House of Our, so please tune in. And then, of course, Rob and I will be back with Clurbis. with the end of your mailbag,

prestige TV at Spotify.com. Not whole not peg at gmail.com. That is not an email that I have procured. But pressuggingspotify.com belongs to us. So it is licking the donut at gmail.com. Molly Rubin, you're just the best to ever do it. And I am so glad that you had the time to do this with me. Thank you.

Thank you for this gift. I thank you for this gift. I can't wait to watch the finale. I can't wait to talk about it together. Maybe we'll do a little check-in at some. some point if we read the books ahead of season two? Yes, I love that for us. A book corner, a little book talk? Should we make a book talk? Should we make a, I've been actually wondering if like, next year should be like House of Reads. I agree. I've been thinking about it as well.

Yeah. Like a book club, like sort of thing. Book club, book talk, reading passages, talking about stories we love, opening at long last House of Reeds. What will we be serving? Will we have tuna melts on the menu at House of Reeds? I stay tuned to find out. out. It's a punch and aroma to invite into our lives. Thank you to Devin Peraldi for production work on this episode. Thank you to Justin Sales for happily agreeing when I said, please let me cover this show on our prestige feed.

And we'll see you very soon. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium. Tova forms an unlikely friendship with their crumudgeonly, Marcellus, whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery.

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