The Prestige TV Podcast - How Effective Are These 'Euphoria' Specials?

Episode Date: January 25, 2021

Charles Holmes is joined by Chris Ryan to talk about the most recent 'Euphoria' special, "Jules," and how it makes them feel about the series as a whole. Hosts: Charles Holmes and Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rue was the first girl that didn't just look at me. She actually saw me. The me that's underneath a million layers, that's not me. So why'd you run away? This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow worked at an aquarium. Tova forms an unlikely friendship with their crumudgeonly Marcellus,

whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Watch remarkably bright creatures with your remarkable moms this Mother's Day weekend, only on Netflix May 8th. So welcome to TV concierge. My name is Charles Holmes. I'm the host of the Ringer music show, and today I'm here with the creative titan of the Ringer himself, Chris Ryan, to discuss Did I get promoted to Creative Titan? That's what I think your title should be, you know? That's what I think of you.

I love it. Thank you. How are you doing, man? I'm doing well. It's great to be here with you today. I'm excited to talk about this show. Yeah, so we're going to get into the second Before You Special, which hit HBO Max this weekend. And instead of following main character, Root, we get to focus a little bit on Jules.

The episode sees Hunter Schaefer recounting what she calls a, quote, really hard six months as her character, Jules, to a new therapist played by Lauren Weidman. And my first question for you, Chris, is it's been what, I think about almost two years since Euphoria, uh, went off the air. What were your feelings about Euphoria after that, uh, season finale and has absence made the heart grow fonder? Yeah, I mean, I really liked that first season. And I, I feel like I really love the show after these two specials. I think necessity was obviously the mother invention of invention here. They were about to start shooting the second season. And the pandemic hit. So Sam Levinson sort of came up with this creative way in which to continue the story to kind

string the two seasons together while also working in a relatively safe fashion. So he did these two standalone episodes that are largely two handers between Zendaya and Coleman Domingo in the first one. And then Weidman and Schaefer and the second one. And I thought it was a great leap forward for the show. I honestly was starting, like, I couldn't help it think about a bunch of other shows that I wish would take a real leap like this and do a deep dive on a character in somewhat of a similar fashion. What about you, man? Woo! Wow. Okay, okay. I was not hot on either of these episodes. I watched it back to back. Yeah. And I just didn't think the show had the range yet. I think the way I kind of thought about it is

it was almost as if like somebody who watched the Sopranos for the first time was like, you know what would be great? We did an hour episode with Tony and Dr. Melfy. And I was like, no, actually, that'd be pretty boring. Because I guess what, obviously there was the confines of COVID. Yeah. And this creative way of doing it. But I think because Euphoria is such a show about an ensemble cast and seeing people bounce off each other,

the first 15 minutes of each episode, I'm in, I'm there, I'm engaged. And after that first 15, I'm like, ooh, it's starting the... Of the two specials, you just found yourself, like, wandering away from it. I found myself wandering away a little bit. And I think all of the acting performances for both were great. I thought the writing in certain spaces were great,

but because there's no, like, action to kind of show us what these characters are doing. then they have the conversation. You're left a little bit like, all right, cool. Like, here's Rue. Just being Rue again. Yeah.

You know? But I wanted to know from you, what were your general feelings about the second special that centers on Jules? Because it's not a carbon copy of the first one with Root. No, I mean,

in some ways, Jules' episode is a more traditional prestige television reveal. Like, it explains a bunch of her. behavior from across season one. And even in the Jules episode, the Jules special, because we start to find out all this stuff about, sorry, in the Rue's special, because we find out all this stuff about Jules' mom. We find out about what she's kind of been going through during this time

period where we're more focused, I think, on like, Rue's relapse and recovery and relapse and recovery. And so I thought it was quite revealing, obviously a lot more impressionistic, a lot more visually compelling than the Rue episode, which was almost a stage play set in a diner, you know, where the two, two characters are just kind of bouncing off each other. What about you? I think what I appreciated is the first one was just written by Sam Levinson. And this one, Hunter, was a co-writer. And you could tell that this episode for her, at least, it felt a little bit more emotional.

It felt specific to Jules as a character. a lot of lines that were going on that I was like, oh man, like they're hitting their stride a little bit. At one point, Jules says something to the effect of like she felt like femininity was conquering her after spending her whole life trying to conquer femininity. And I was like, all right, that seems like something that Sam Levinson probably just could not rack himself. Yeah. You know, that's like, that's something very, very deep that I was like, in a weird way in season two, made me excited of like, yo, what would happen if Sam Levinson let a few more writers in? Let a few more people tinker because for so much of euphoria, it felt like Rue's show and

Sam kind of going through what he has said about his own addiction through this character of Rue. But I felt that Jules episode was a little bit more successful because we didn't really get to know that much about her. We only got to see Jules through the way Rue interprets her as this. as this object of her affection. So in that way, I thought it was successful. Sure. I thought it was interesting.

They had that little thing at the end of the episode where they do kind of behind the scenes. And Hunter Schaefer talked about how she thinks of herself way more as a visual artist and likes to communicate through images rather than words, but she had just basically been shadowing Sam and the director of photography and kind of learning about their process

and that she was sort of brought into the writing process for this special. And that she was almost like, this is not actually my preferred way of communicating is writing is not her preferred way of communicating. She prefers to think in images and more visual terms. So I thought it was fascinating because like you're pointing out, like there are parts of that episode that I don't think anyone but Hunter could have written. No, absolutely.

But I kind of, one thing that irked me a little bit about the episode in certain places was that it felt a little fat. Like they played that entire Lord's song. you see, I was like, when they went to the ocean, there was all these impressionists parts, and some of them worked better than others. When I'm like, man, this 40-minute episode could have been like a tight 30,

and I think I would have enjoyed it a little bit more. Like, I agree with you. Mike, one criticism of the Jules episode, even though obviously a lot of it is taking place in her head, there's this sort of metaphorical apartment that Rue is trapped in, but then Jules is locked in. It turns out that's the place where Jules is hiding from her dad, and like there are all these images, you know, there's the whole scene of her having sex with shy guy,

but Rue is there and she can feel Rue disappearing. Like there are all these sort of more fantastical images happening in the episode. But I actually was curious whether you thought the Jules episode would work better or worse if they had done it the way they had done the Rue episode, which is just, it was just the therapy session. And if they had just shot that straight and not kind of jumped around inside of Jules' head, Do you think it would have been better, worse, you know, different? I think I actually did, like, a lot of the impressionistic kind of dream sequences.

It was where it got grading is the thing that I always think is a euphoria's kind of Achilles heel, is sometimes the way they represent sex and addiction can be very, very, it can be too much at times. And it can, at a certain point, I'm like, all right, we get it. Rue is having this overdose. Like, we don't, like, it's, like, less is more. Like, let's take our, like, foot off the pedal a little bit. And I think if you shorten the episode,

those impressionistic scenes, because once it's revealed that, like, oh, this is, some of this is reality, some of this is a nightmare. Some of this is, like, a shared dream that Rue and Jules had. I'm like, oh, this does a lot of heavy lifting.

And I think it helps the plot a lot more than the Rue episode, because there's certain parts of the, in the Rue episode, I'm like, this would have been a little bit better if they had maybe one or two more different scenes to kind of keep me rolling. Yeah. But yeah, the 48 minutes was like, I was like, oh, man, like, y'all could have cut this ocean scene.

We don't need to hear this Lord's song. I felt like that was like an overture. Like, I think that that sort of sets the tone for it being a different kind of episode than the Rue episode is that this is going to be a little bit more, like you're saying, like a dream sequence and the playing the entire Lord song. then having Jules' whole story from season one kind of playing in her eyes while it's happening. I definitely won't watch that again, but I thought the first time through was effective. But you're right.

I was definitely like, they're going to cut this Lord song soon, right? Like, this isn't just going to be the whole word song because I could just listen to that. Yeah. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but was some of the stuff in the Jules, I don't want to call it a retcon, but I don't remember her mom being such a central figure in the first season. And then they kind of go back and you see the way Jules is acting around the Halloween episode is a lot having to do with her mom who just came back from a clinic. And she's trying to basically make amends. Jules rejects her amends making attempt.

And then she finds out that her mom is in a hospital of some kind, right? Like afterwards, right? Yeah, she relapsed because. she overhears Jules and her dad having an argument about her sobriety and whether it's going to last. Right. And I, that does, I would have to go back and rewatch parts of season one to see, like, if you layer in what Jules is wearing in different scenes, what the relationship, where the mom is in relation to that. Yeah, I think it doesn't, the thing that really struck me in terms of the differences is that season one of Euphoria is, is a true ensemble show. And it's almost hard to conceive

of it is as anything but a show about Ruin Jules now. Did it change how you felt about the show itself? Yeah, I think that's also a big reason why I did not like both specials because I came to like Euphoria

and it's like, it's like DeGrassey but it's just like you're watching this and you're like I love all these Friday night lights. Yeah, sure. It's just like a big big group. Yeah. You're just hanging with the kids. It's just like a good hang. I look at Euphoria as kind of a show about, you know, the lies we tell ourselves or the, like, the lies we can't, we can't bear for other people to know. And part of the genius of that show is like, you know, you have your project X parts where it's like big party, big party. And then there's the come down after the party and you're like, oh, everybody's lives are like here vocally fucked up. Like just the suburbs and their parents and all of this. And when you don't have those set pieces, all you get is the come down. And that's not.

as interesting and especially it's not as interesting when you don't have like a bunch of characters bouncing off these people. Because I think the genius thing is like when Rue's talking to Fez, she learned something about herself. When she's talking to Jules, she learned something about herself.

But when she's just talking to Ali, you just kind of get one vantage point. And let me tell you, Ali, that actor, he put in a tort of horse, like performance. Like, I loved him in that. I mean, they could do a spinoff about him and I would watch it.

Yeah. Oh, man. but like asking him to carry an hour. Like I was surprised. Like I will give it up to like Zendai and him. Like they were duking it out for an hour and I'm like, oh man, this is. It felt like watching a great tennis match. And even so much in that like there are parts of that episode that I think are pretty,

they feel it feels almost like they're reading a script. Like there's like it's like they're getting into rhythm. And it's kind of like you imagine like two great tennis players like just warming up and just hitting ground strokes back. and forth and having a little bit of a rally to get into it. And then as the episode goes on, you can feel them really playing themselves in a form. And then, like, by the time Ollie goes outside to have a cigarette, you're like, I was like, I can't even, I'm not even thinking about anything else. I'm not like looking at my watch at all.

Like, I'm just like, I feel like I'm watching a beautiful play. Oh, when he, when he went outside, that was probably like, for me, weirdly the emotional center. Because we don't, I loved Ali in the first season, but you don't see much. No, and that's the thing is that like these two episodes really revealed a little bit about the first season. The Jewel's stuff, knowing a little bit more about Ali and knowing a little bit more about how he sees Rue. I thought that was really genius. If you could give any Euphoria character a special instead, who would it be? That's a great question, man. I hadn't thought about that. What do you think? I would have to give it to Fez. He was, he was, he was my rock thing. So he's the only like

He's the one character where I feel like, because he was like so untrained as an actor, he's like, this shit's fucked up. I'm like, just be watching. I'm like, it is, Vez. And also I think that was probably one thing that to me was missing from both of these episode is that euphoria at the end of the day is like a very funny show. It's like, there's some laugh out moments. And in these episodes, there's not like that many laughs.

Yeah. That's what I was kind of referring to when I was like, when you, it's almost hard to imagine what season two is other than ruin Jules' love story or story. And Ruin Jules' story is not very funny. You know, and it's not, it's, it's, it's pretty codependent, it's pretty destructive, but it's ultimately also beautiful. And you're just kind of like, I really hope neither of these people die in this process is just like, that's, that's my main relationship to them. But yeah, you're right. There is a lot of like dark humor. There's a lot of like sort of phantasmagoric, like,

parties going on. Like, I'm curious to see where they go with this show next season. And that next season might not come until 22, depending on when they're able to get back to work. This might be a strained comparison, but, you know, your boy has been watching Sex and the City for the first time. Speak on it. Speak on.

I love Sex in the City. And I realized, like, the big crime of that show is that because they got Carrie and Mr. Big Together so fast, But like the end of like second, the second season and third season, you're like, oh my gosh, if they get together one more time, I'm going to just, oh man, I'm going to freak the fuck out. And I think what Euphoria is going to have trouble with in the second season and potentially even in a third season is that because we've seen how destructive Rue and jewels are together, as much as I do like them together, there's only so much you can kind of play with that relationship. Will they or won't they here is a little bit dark. Yeah. Yeah, and because they've now devoted two hours across these two specials, like, it's season two, I'm like, I actually don't.

Like, I'm good. Yeah. Like, let's focus on some other, some other places. It would almost need to be a different show. Like, them going to New York would have been a fascinating second season. You know, those two moving out of Highland and, like East Highland and going somewhere else would be a real interesting left turn for the show to take. Oh, I wanted them to do a, like, once they. I saw them in the apartment.

I'm like, go for it. Say, do the time skip. Do the time skip. Yeah. All right. So, you know, wrapping up, I kind of wanted to know, you know, Sam Levinson is having a moment. Malcolm and Marie is about to release on Netflix.

What are your kind of thoughts on his current run? Because he seems very enamored with the, honestly, the constraints of the pandemic. He seems like he's the baller. He's the only, he's the only guy. winning the pandemic. Yes, he was just like, oh, I can just write stuff where it's two people talking enough. And he's like, I'm going to write my king lear. In your opinion, are you, is he successful kind of with this big, grand experiment

of just kind of dropping content where it's just you get two like good actors, you sit them in a room, you write a script for them and let him go. It just really helps to have Zendaya. Like, you know what you mean? It's really helpful to have like a huge. huge star and John David Washington and Malcolm Marie like to get that, to have that kind of charisma on screen if you're going to do these very intimate dramas. But I honestly have a lot of respect for what he's doing just because so many people take whatever kind of momentum they

accrue in their career and wind up turning it over to one of these big franchises. Like generally speaking, that's where like that's grad school for directors right now is like I made an indie, maybe I made two indies. And then I went off and did Amman or I went off and did Dr. Strange or whatever, or directing an MCU, a Disney Plus show. And it's kind of cool to me that Sam is just so wrapped up

in interpersonal relationships and human frailty that he's just like, no, these are the things I want to make. And I wouldn't be surprised if at some point he does make, you know, some fucked up Star Wars movie or whatever. I mean, nothing would surprise me. But right now, I like the fact that he's like,

nope, these are the kinds of things I want to make. and I think he has like a pretty dedicated, passionate following. What about you? Oh, well, something you just said, honestly, before we got on HBO Max, the early, early talks that they're making a Harry Potter TV show, but Sam Levinson on there, you know? Just have the Hogwarts kids going wild.

What kind of like, do they have ketamine at Hogwarts? Like, I mean, like, I don't know. Honestly, I would watch an entire season of just like Ron getting into like magic ketamine just going wild. Right. But I guess I'm a little bit more harsh on the just kind of like two actors sitting there talking it out. Yeah. I think it's honestly, it's the height of writing and acting.

That's what we come to these things for. But kind of like what I was alluded to earlier, because we've only gotten to see these characters for one season, I don't know how successful the specials were. Like I could watch like Don Draper and Peggy do this. Like when you have the suitcase, you're like, like a history with you, that you could do the bottle episodes that are like just kind of effort.

Yeah. Yeah. Bottle episodes work when it's like, oh, like I know these characters inside and out and I will sit here for an hour and just watch them go at it. Because we don't know that much yet, I think these two would have been special

if we had two or three seasons to fall in love. with them, but I was watching, I was watching with my girlfriend. And at one point, she turns to me, she's just like, wait, what happened in season one? And I was like, oh, it's been two years. I think a lot of people are doing that. I think a lot of people are like, uh, wait, is this real? Like, yeah, I think a lot of people can't remember what happened. And that's why this was a great, great move by them, because if they are for some reason not able to come back this year, I think it's really cool that they have like two hours of stuff for people to kind of chew on

rather than the situation that say like a Barry finds itself in where Barry is like, they've got seasons three and four written and they're just waiting to shoot it. Succession, I mean, I think they might have gotten back to the production on Succession. Maybe not, but like, Succession is like ready to go and they can't shoot. But it's going to be like a really long time by the time these shows come back on. Honestly, you know, that is true. And just watching it, even if I don't think both of them were as successful as I would like, it put me back in the mood

to watch you for it. I'm like, damn, like I should go back and rewatch some of it. Yeah. Rewatch some of it. So honestly, yeah. Like, is there any are there any closing remarks? No, I think that I think where we probably netted out if we can reach across the aisle to agree,

it's that I like these a little bit more than you did, but we both agree that this was a good thing for euphoria. Oh, I think it was a good thing for euphoria. I think honestly it was a good thing for just the actors involved because even if I didn't like the episodes as a whole I was just like damn just the risk like in today's economy to have

like these actors and be like no we're dropping hour long episodes with two actors going back to back you don't see that and honestly if the pandemic has given us anything like yo I want more of this I want more character studies I want more just give the actors room to chew let's do it maybe more show should be more experimental in this way oh like hey if I can lobby

Lobby HBO. Give us the succession. Two specials. Like, come on. Give me, I want a camera on Shiv while she watches house hunters. Like that's, I don't care. It was good talking, man. Yeah, good talking. And that's TV concierge.