The Prestige TV Podcast - How Ethical Is 'The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel'?

Episode Date: February 19, 2021

Amelia Wedemeyer and Claire McNear pose a few questions about the ethics of 'Crime Scene: The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel,' a Netflix true crime series that chronicles the disappearance of Elisa Lam. Hosts: Amelia Wedemeyer and Claire McNear Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A hotel with a notorious past is the site of another bizarre case. A Lisa Lamb from Vancouver, Canada, is missing. The big unanswered question is, where is she? The last footage that we have over was inside the elevator. That's where the case starts to go askew. She kept looking outside the door. Why is the elevator not going anywhere? Is someone keeping her here?

Her hand movements are very strange and erratic. Like, she's conjuring a spirit. It makes people wonder, is there something evil going on here? It just blew up. In the web sleuth community, it created this feeding frenzy. If it's a murder, then you need a murderer. You really don't have the full story. She was running around trying to save her own life.

Bad things keep happening here over and over again. This hotel was hiding something. I would have never thought. What was about to happen could happen. This is the latest chapter in a dark history for the Cecil Hotel. And welcome to TV concierge, a podcast on the ringer.com that helps you navigate the vast streaming landscape. My name is Amelia Weddemier, and I am joined by Claire McNair. She's the staff writer for The Ringer.

She's also the author of a book called Answers in the Form of Questions, which is truly the definitive guide to Jeopardy. buy that. And we are going to be talking about crime scene, the Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel, which is now available to stream on Netflix. And we have three main takeaways from the series. Claire, are you so excited? Yeah, I'm eager to talk about this with you. It was a rich text. It was kind of a case that I knew a little bit about before. Like as soon as I press play, I was like, oh, it's this one. And anyway, lots to talk about here. Lots to talk about. So I guess let's just begin with what is the Cecil Hotel and what is its history? Yeah, I mean, like, it's an interesting documentary in that, like, they really kind of made

the hotel into a character. And, like, I found myself, like, watching it and I will talk at length about my kind of problems with this documentary as a whole and a little bit. But for me, like, one of the things I found myself thinking was that, like, I almost wished it had just been a documentary about the Cecil Hotel with a part of that. Oh my God. Yes. I totally agree. Because it kind of diverged into this whole like, let's talk about the Elisa Lam thing and like let's make this hotel into like you're saying a character, but make it all scary. And it just was like, again, part of this whole true crime trope. And obviously we'll talk about that more later. But the Cecil Hotel,

for those of you who don't know who haven't seen this documentary yet, it's this old kind of traveler's hotel, and it was once a luxury destination, but it kind of fell on hard times, and it brought a lot of homeless people, a lot of transients, a lot of people down on their luck, because it was placed right on the edge of an area of downtown L.A. called Skid Row,

which they've been trying to gentrify for a little bit now. But, you know, it's still, there's a lot of crime down there and whatnot. But anyway, the Cecil Hotel is the home for a lot of people who are in and out and who stay there for like a cheap rate. And then they also talk about this, I guess, hostel that they made back in 2011 called, I think, the stay on Maine. And that's where the Elisa Lamb story kind of takes off. But it was meant to attract like a younger traveler who, you know, doesn't really know about the Cecil Hotel's sorted history. And they had a whole rebranding. And it was supposed to, again, attract a different clientele than the one that the Cecil Hotel attracts.

So. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. And as is the case with so much of this story and this documentary, like, the hotel and the way that it existed at the time that this happened felt. like a very online thing to me where it was kind of this like sub-hostile that was really just a few floors of the hotel that they sort of redecorated and, you know, had online as a separate place. Like that felt like something that sort of rose out of websites like Expedia or, you know, if you're, if you're abroad and you're just looking like, oh, how can I cheaply book my like vacation to Los Angeles? You might find this and just, you know, have absolutely no idea what that neighborhood

was or, you know, least of all what this hotel was. Right. You had like no idea with the history. And I think they brought on a couple who seemed like they were foreign. And they were like, we didn't realize what we were getting into when we got here. We thought it was going to be like just this nice little hostel. And we realized we were kind of in this area of downtown that's a little rougher around the edges and whatnot. And so that was kind of shocking to them, I think. Yeah. I mean, and they talk a lot about that. And to some degree, I mean, it almost kind of felt like a scam that the hotel was running at that time. I know. In fact, like, I mean, you would get in the elevator and like you'd go through like this grand entryway or like this.

They had like a separate entrance for this new sort of rebranded part of the hotel. Yeah. And then you would get in the elevators and it was the same place. And they had a lot of long term residents who were experiencing addiction or, you know, recovering from, you know, bouts of homelessness or recently out of jail or prison. And I mean, it was not at all kind of what they were sold online. So it, it, it was. was, you know, it felt very much like an internet thing. Yes, definitely. And, you know, they also talked about the hotel's history with some serial killers that have stayed there. They said, they mentioned the night stalker Richard Ramirez, who apparently would stay at

the hotel and he would just be walking around with blood on his clothing. And then, you know what? I was, I was like trying to dig into that, though. And I'm not even sure that is definitively established. Like, they definitely said it as fact in the documentary. Wow. And I didn't spend a ton of time on this. Sure.

I mean, you know, Wikipedia, but they were just like, oh, he was reported to have stayed there. So I'm not even sure if that is true. But yeah, a lot of this, like, yeah, right? Like, a lot of this documentary does kind of try to play up this, you know, not only the grandeur of this hotel, but also this kind of like spooky history of old Hollywood stuff. Definitely. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Do you want to talk about kind of like the Internet sleuths that are drawn to the entire story? and more about the hotel itself as a character.

Yeah. So if you are better adjusted than I am, you might not be super familiar with, you know, kind of the beats of this case. So, I mean, this documentary is about a young woman named Elisa Lam, who was a 21-year-old student at the University of British Columbia. She was from Vancouver. And she stayed at this kind of, you know, hostile part of the Cecil Hotel on a trip by herself through Los Angeles and vanished. And we were kind of talking about earlier today,

what were the parts of this story that kind of made it take off and become this thing that attracted these like self-appointed intranet sleuths. And I think, I mean, to some degree, it's just it was a young, beautiful woman, you know, a student with her life ahead of her, just vanished in the middle of a, you know, busy American city. That, that I think has always kind of been catnip for headlines. Definitely. Then, you know, she was missing for a few weeks after, you know, she disappeared. And I mean, she was, her disappearance was noted very quickly.

And it became this sensation. And then, you know, it drew this attention both abroad and in the U.S., I think. And it did just kind of become this object of obsession for Internet slews. So, I mean, I was reading an interview earlier today with Joe Berlinger, who is the show's creator. And an interesting thing about this is probably worth mentioning is that it's not just the vanishing at the Cecil Hotel. It is crime scene, colonizing at the Cecil Hotel. And I think it is, it is like a Netflix franchise there planning where they are going to kind of roll out different

true crime installments like this. But I think it seemed to me from reading that that he meant for these sleuths who kind of come up over and over and over the course of the documentary and talk through different theories, they're supposed to be sort of a Greek chorus. And, you know, I, it was sort of like clearly he intended it to be partly about the specifics of Elisa Lam's disappearance in her death, but also partly about like what drives random people, strangers on the internet to just become really, really obsessed with these cases. And I think, you know, one of the problems I had with this was, was that it really did sort of lend them a little bit too much credence, I think. Like we really followed the sleuths down the rabbit hole a lot of the time,

even with things that, you know, were very much deep-bbed. Yeah. For, like, three episodes, for three out of the four episodes. It was like, they framed it like, oh, my God, this could really be a murderer. This could be a part of a larger story that maybe involves the government. Like, kind of this really intense story, only to have it suddenly shift at the end to be like, this was actually like just a bipolar episode that really ended in tragedy, which was kind of like, oh, my God, okay. Right.

Yeah. I mean, it's a tragic, tragic story. Yeah. It's really, it's crushing. And I mean, it does intersect with these kind of interesting storylines about, you know, Los Angeles and Skid Row and, you know, mental illness. But it, the story itself is, is not this great mystery. Like, we know what happened. And it's a very, very sad story. It is. It really is. And I don't know if, did you watch the other Netflix true crime series, don't fuck with cats? I didn't. I've heard so much about that, but I've I've never actually seen it myself.

It does. It focuses, actually, the, don't fuck with cats, I think focuses even more on the internet sleuths and how they were just so persistent in finding this person and whatnot. And that really did involve like a killer and whatnot. But I kind of saw the different, you know, similarities. And again, it goes back into this like falling into a salacious trap of like, oh, murder. Because, I mean, you know, I, I hate to say it. But like, I'm intrigued by murder, you know, and it's an interesting thing.

And it's, it's so easy for your mind to just kind of go somewhere when you don't have the answers, I guess, at the time. Of course. And I do think that, you know, there is so much about internet sleuths and what drives people to become obsessed with the disappearances or deaths of people that they don't know. That is really, really interesting. Yeah. But with this, I mean, there's an episode where we kind of follow some of the sleuths as

they get together and then go to the Cecil Hotel and basically try to retrace Elisa Lam's steps. And I mean, it's really kind of upsetting to watch because they're kind of giddy about it. Like they're excited to be there and be like, oh, we're hunting for clues. This is where she was last seen. Here's the elevator. Oh, what could have? You know, and it's just like a young woman died and died tragically here. And like I don't mean to like totally deflate like a true crime thing because there is so much that is

interesting about very sad stories a lot of the time. But we really followed the sluice quite a bit here. Oh my God. You're so right. And I think one of the episodes, I think the third episode was called like Down the Rabbit Hole. And they, you know, and they focus on the video of her, which is kind of a bizarre video. If you guys haven't seen it, it's she's pressing these buttons. She's clearly having some kind of a mental disorder. It seems like, because she had bipolar disorder. And they were saying that it seemed as if she wasn't taking her medication and that's probably what happened. And she's kind of acting as if there's someone there, but there's no definitive proof that there was. And there's like, you know, they talk about there's the time code is all jumbled up and there might be a cutscene from the elevator.

And again, it's part of falling into that rabbit hole of having, you know, something very interesting, quote unquote, and wanting to follow that through. And, you know, I see, and I'm sure you do too, see this like more and more, not only in true crime, but kind of leak over to like celebrity culture. Like I don't, I don't mean to like go all into like the Army Hammer allegations that are going on right now. But I mean, I see that with people when it's like you're you're not even focusing on what you should focus on, which is like these women are claiming they were abused, but you're more intrigued by the cannibalism or. You know, the purported, was he involved with a murder? Which is like, there's no basis to this. But you just, you want so badly to believe it. That's sick, you know, that's sick. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, the video is, I think, an important part of this because there is, I mean, it's this really haunting footage where she's clearly in distress and clearly needs help and support and isn't getting it. And, you know, that's the last footage of her alive.

But I think that one of the threads that I found interesting that did not really get explored in this was kind of the LAPD angle where we follow some of the sluices. They're like, oh, you know, it's a government conspiracy and there's LAPD corruption and they're covering up what really happened. And of course, we know that that's totally bogus here. But the LAPD actually released that video. And the video, I think, was what really made it take off and inspired all these people to kind of become obsessive. with it and develop all these, I mean, conspiracy theories, just outright conspiracy theories. And I think that they're, when LAPD was first investigating, like, immediately after her disappearance where she went, they had a dog track her scent to the window that she used to access

the roof, which is where she eventually passed away. Right. And they went up on the roof and they kind of, you know, gave it a quick search and they got pulled away. And there was Christopher Dorner, there was the whole Christopher Dorner thing where he, you know, He killed an officer and kind of went on the run outside of Los Angeles. That happened to happen like the very next day. So the police kind of immediately sort of put this case somewhat on the back burner.

But they were really close to her body immediately after her death and they didn't find her. And an angle, I think, that would have been really interesting would be to, you know, kind of look at the ways in which the LAP mess this up. And not really getting the solve for a few weeks and adding that much more pain to, you know, her loved one. Sure. But also allowing it to become this sensation that, you know, it's, sorry, my cat just tried to jump on the counter and totally fell off. She's very sensitive. She's so cute.

But the LEPD also really allowed it to kind of run away and become this thing that became a documentary, you know, years later and that people still obsess over and don't believe, you know, the simple, horrible truth about. Right. And it's just like, and it's sad. And we meet another character in the whole story, this guy who goes by the name Mayhem, and he's like this kind of metal rocker. And he was apparently staying at the hotel.

And they thought that he was staying there at the same time, but he wasn't. And he just had a lot of songs about death. And somehow he got swept up in it. And people are like, you killed her. And it just, again, it got away from everyone because they just wanted to pin answers on people who really don't have answers. and it was kind of a witch hunt. And that was so. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I, one of the things I kind of wanted to, you know, do here, I mentioned earlier that I really have sort of a rant about the ways in which I. No, please. I'm, I'm. So I'll go with this. But, I mean, just to kind of move on to sort of the third thing we talked about discussing, which is kind of the state of true crime right now. Yes. Because there has been a pretty negative response to this documentary, which I've been kind of surprised by, though, obviously, I did not really like it myself.

But if you will. allow me a quick rant about this. Please, please, no, yes. So I mean, I am a person who, you know, I do find, I, I enjoy a lot of true crime content as I guess what I would say. I mean, I find a lot of these kind of really horrible tragic crimes. I do find them kind of interesting for what they me too. A lot of people do. You know, reveal about human nature or, you know, whatever it is. Definitely. So I am a person who watches this, who listens to this, who reads this. But I, you know, I think the question at the center of the true crime genre is, you know, you need true crime to kind of do two things at once. And that's, you know, does it work on a kind of journalistic level and does it work on an entertainment level?

And on the kind of reporting stance, it's like, do you trust the people who are actually making it, whether that's producers or writers or, you know, how are they going about investigating it? are they doing it in kind of a reasonable, honest, open, thorough way? I mean, like, are they, it doesn't necessarily need to be that they crack the case or solve the crime or find new evidence, but are they kind of leading you through the story responsibly? And then on the entertainment side, obviously that is, you know, a horrible way to think of rehashings of these, you know, horrible crimes and deaths and pain. But when it is a TV show that is asking you to watch four episodes, put three hours into this or eight hours or whatever it is, like there has to be something that is at least interesting.

Like, are you learning something? Are you taking something away from it? And, you know, the best true crime is both of those things. Like, you learn something and it's engaging. And, you know, you can do one without the other. You can have a really interesting true crime thing that is really exploitative. And, you know, we can debate that, but that exists. But I think with this, it was really neither of those things. It didn't work on either of those levels. Yeah. We spent so much time with the conspiracy theorists. We, you know, it was clear that, for example, her family was not part of this. So I assume that means that they did not want to cooperate. And it seems like they had pretty good reasons not to. Right. And then on the, you know, on the entertainment level, like we had four episodes and we wasted all this time.

We went down these avenues that the producers then come out and say like, oh, no, that's totally bogus. And here's why. having just spent 25 minutes, like, you know, telling us that, you know, a death metal singer in Mexico might be a suspect. And it's like, oh, no, he wasn't in the country. So I, you know, I think we're left with this show that is bloated, that's structured poorly, that, you know, very sensationally rehashes what is really a very, very, very sad story. And it's just like, at the end of it, I was just like, why did we spend three hours here? What did we learn? What was the point of all this? Exactly. No, I, you're rant done, but I'm just, you know, like, perfect. I totally agree with you. I mean, I'm like, I'm curious what you think. Yeah, like, what is like good true crime to you? You know, I agree. I think it is something that, I mean, you know, I hate to say it titillates you, but it also gets you to question things. And I think the, so the guy who directed this and who was the executive producer, I know you mentioned him before, Joe Berlinger, he has done a lot. of true crime series. And he's probably best known, I would say, for his HBO series Paradise Loss, which covers the West Memphis Three. And I think for something like that, that is a shining example, if you can say that, of true crime. Because that is something that really reexamines the story. And, you know, it's like these three guys who were obviously so wrongly accused of murdering these three young boys. And it does it in a way. And it does it in a way.

that is, it fascinates you, but it also has you question the entire story and the validity of which they, you know, were accused, tried for, and convicted, you know, and it ends up, I mean, I don't want to say that that documentary totally gave them, you know, evidence and whatnot to exonerate the guys who were tried and put away unjustly. But I think it definitely sparked a larger conversation to be had. And I think, it's just sad to see or just maybe disappointing to see that, you know, this guy who knows how to do good true crime. Like he does. There's evidence. Has to kind of, I don't even know, like search around for crumbs almost to present to us just a story that really doesn't need

four episodes and retelling and going down like you're saying, these like salacious story lines, you know? And it's just like, it's unfortunate. And he also was kind of in hot water recently, too, because he was responsible for the Ted Bundy tapes on Netflix, which again, people are saying you're giving too much emphasis. You're putting too much emphasis on the serial killer and not on the victims. And it's, again, you know, true crime. It's just like a murky, murky subject area. And it's, and when it's, it's, It's done well. It's really done well and it's good. And I think it furthers the conversation. But when it's done just not with the utmost care, you get into just like territory that is icky. Like I have no other word for it than it being just like it's icky, you know? Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I like I said, I've been a little bit surprised by this sort of widespread backlash to this documentary. Though, I mean, I think it's totally warranted. And I wonder if like this sort of felt.

like true crime for true crime's sake. It's like, oh, here's a horrible thing that happened. Let's go over all the horrible details. And like, I don't know that that can be justified, really. But it, I wonder, I mean, clearly we are in the midst of a true crime bubble where there's just so, so much of it being made and, and, you know, very high budget stuff all over Netflix and other streaming services and podcasts. And I wonder if people are kind of starting to lose patience with this sense of like true crime for true crime. where, you know, I don't think we're going to see, like, the wholesale abandonment of, of, like, true crime. But just the, like, why did we watch this really long thing that just was awful and crushing? Totally.

And I wonder if that bubble is starting to burst. Yeah, that is interesting. I think it, I mean, it seems like, yeah, from what critics are saying and, you know, and it's, but it's interesting because there's always going to be a space for it, obviously. And it's just even like I was looking through the Twitter comments of people and, you know, they love focusing on the crazy hotel manager lady and whatnot, which I mean, whatever, that it is what it is. But yeah. So would you recommend this series to people or would you steer clear? Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I've been a little negative here. I, again, I think that there were really interesting parts of the story. And there were probably ways that you could tell this. this story as part of a larger kind of tapestry of looking at, you know, either the hotel or, you know, the history of Los Angeles or kind of what creates the sort of sensationalized obsession-inducing cases. Sure. But I, for this specific documentary, I would not, I don't think, recommend it.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's, you just like kind of feel like you wasted four hours of your life after you're done. I remember watching it being like, so wait, what? So. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's just sad. It's just heartbreaking. And it's just like there's, it's bad enough that this happened in the first place. And it's just like, you know, I don't, I don't think there's, I don't think this can really be justified. And I don't think it's worth spending three hours with. Right. So everyone, learn from our mistakes. Find a different true crime thing to watch.

Well, thank you for joining me, Claire. you can find Claire at the ringer.com. Again, you can buy her awesome book. I'm serious. Which is a very little murder in it. Damn it. But it's the answers in the form of questions for all you Jeopardy fans out there. You can find me on Fridays on tea time and see you next time for TV concierge.