The Prestige TV Podcast - 'Justified: City Primeval' Episode 5 Recap

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

Find out what this old rascal Raylan Givens is up to this time in the fifth episode of ‘Justified: City Primeval!’ Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Back in the Prestige TV podcast feed, I'm Joanna Robinson, joining me today. Sporting a very fetching porcelaino hat. It is Ram Mahoney. You know, me style, maven, street pastor, occasionally nutritionist, the whole deal. We are here to talk about justified, city primeval, episode five. You good? How would you pronounce the title this episode? You good?

You good? You good? That's how they do in the D apparently. Just some program reminders in the feed really quickly. Mallory and I are covering a little bit of only murders in the building elsewhere on the feed. They're covering winning time elsewhere on the feed. I think Rob should be on the show or whatever. And so subscribe the Prestige Feed.

We're covering a whole bunch of stuff and more to come. The ball is about to start. Prestige is going to be back in season. It's going to be great. This episode, Season 1, Episode 5, you good? It's written by Issa Davis and Chris from Inzano. And it's directed by Kevin Sullivan, who also directed how Stella got her groove back. So if you want to call this episode, how Carolyn got her groove back, I'm happy to call it that as well.

She sure did. She sure did. Guess what, Rob, really did not stay in the car. Yeah, we didn't even get picture on the screen before I was proven wrong and you were proven right. Like as soon as I heard the deep breath from Raylan, I was like, God damn it. God damn it. All right. We're going to, as usual, save Raylan and Carolyn and Jamal for our dessert course today.

We're going to go through in sections. Let us start with, I just want to check in on the DCPD and the investigation. And I had a little, like, slight aha moment because, like, we have been looking at scantz at Maureen for a while now. she's now in charge of the investigation. That's... Seems cool. Chill. Great decision. Great, great idea.

But I liked when Raylan was talking, when they were like talking about where the book might be, et cetera. And he said something about how the judge is sort of waving around in our face. Like, you wanted to know we had it. And, like, Maureen's in that scene. So if, like, he's waving it around as a deterrent of some kind or a flex of some kind and sending a secret message to Marine, hey, you're in here.

You know, that felt notable, right? Absolutely. So I think we, you know, there's a lot of book-related content, a lot of judges' book-related content in this episode, and some very like on-the-nose lines from Raylan about like, huh, I wonder how this book will tie all of the strands of this together. And we certainly, I think we certainly start to see that, but not only did we have that kind of aha moment,

I had an aha moment in the sense that I think we've been thinking, about Maureen and the mystery of the season all wrong. And this episode kind of lays out the idea that, you know, we have Maureen singled out. We had kind of drawn some attention to her because she was being pretty shady. And it seems like she's probably connected to the judge's book and exactly the way you described. But instead of looking for the one dirty cop,

I think what this episode is suggesting is maybe we should have just assumed what Carolyn tells us outright in this episode, which is the whole city is in the book. maybe it's more than one cop, maybe it's a department-wide issue, and certainly I think we get some suggestion, or at least some maybe note that maybe our guy Norbert,

Nourbert, Leo Butts, I mean, he's certainly doing some suspicious things too, or some things that at least for a television viewer would strike is suspicious. Well, we get this pointed exchange as, you know, as you said, Maureen is now in charge of the investigation. She wants everyone to go back to the start. Let's, you know, knock on doors,

let's revisit the crime scene, let's see what's going on. Raylan and Wendell go back, and they're kind of thinking about, like, what can we even do that we, like, what are some stones that have been left unturned? And one thing Raylan stumbles upon is like the one eyewitness from the night. Darrell Woods, we see him on screen.

Raylan holds up a picture of him, usually a pretty good sign that we might see that guy again. We also learned that Norbert is the only person who interviewed him, and he noted that this guy was so hopped up on PCP, there's no way his testimony could possibly be reliable, which is certainly what you would say if you didn't want any other cops asking that guy questions.

And so between that, between all the talk of the Detroit way in this episode and kind of the ways police manipulate evidence and plant shit, create stories, create narratives, even if in some cases to pin things on criminals they know to be guilty or at least think to be guilty, I think we got a lot, you know, considering that Norbert did not appear in this episode, a lot of things kind of point.

back in his direction. Okay. I'm not going to sit here and defend Norbert, but I got to ask a question about my cousin, Wendell Robinson, and say,

when Wendell says the Detroit Way entrapment, it's not my way. Do you believe him? Where are you on Wendell? It's a great question. So one of two things seems to be true with Wendell.

Either he's just a guy who's just trying to get to a beach somewhere, right? He just wants to collect those pension checks while sipping a margarita at the end of his career. wearing a hat. Wearing a fine Italian fedora.

He doesn't seem super interested in doing great police work. You know, as Raylan is kicking the tires on, you know, revisiting the crime scene, he's just kind of like voicing out why he never wanted to be a cop in the first place and how he really just wanted to tell stories. I don't get the sense that he's like really in cahoots or that he would be necessarily in the book so much as he is the breed of cop who just like, does not really care and doesn't want to be bothered. And it's just kind of off to the side

relative to what some of these other people are saying. At least that's the impression the show is leaving me with now. How do you feel about him? I'm inclined to believe in Wendell. I need like one of these Detroit cops to not be dirty. So I would like it to be him. I enjoy every time we spend with him. I really enjoyed his interaction with the ex-Mr.

and Cruz. Let's talk about Raymond Cruz. We already mentioned that in the book, this is the lead detective in the novel, and he's been pushed aside to the margins of the story to make room for the big hat really givens. But we get the scene with the X, which was phenomenal. The cutlass has been towed, all the sort of stuff, great stuff. And then we get Raymond Cruz himself, and what feels like an incredibly important bar room conversation. take me through this. What did you think of the Raymond Raylan interaction here?

I mean, first of all, I thought it was just a great performance from Paul Calderone. He's, as he tells this story to Raylan, basically like his interaction with his own Boyd Crowder, right? This like rival who he had had this cat and mouse game with as a cop.

They're constantly circling each other. Eventually, this other guy, Freddie Kegg, I think is the name that he gives. Just kind of like, is done with the chase, shows up at his house one night. And Raymond kills him, cold blood. Straight up murders him

for no reason. And I think there's a lot of things about that scene that really sing out, as I're saying, the performance, it's so cold, it's so removed. And not because Raymond does not realize he murdered him, but just he, by his own admission, like, does not give a fuck anymore, really. Would you say that he thinks

it was justified? You could make the argument that he believes it so. So I think my question is, are we going to see Raylan confronted with a similar choice. Because inside the same episode, when he was talking to Wendell about, like, what are the three ways forward, right? And Raylan's number three was like, find Clement and shoot him. And you don't, like, believe that that's, like, actually what Raylan is suggesting they do in the

moment. But, I mean, we found it in this episode when Clement breaks in and gets the garlic painting. Like, there's nothing that Clement loves more than a late night visit to someone's house. He's done to Carolyn before. So, like, if Raylan has to confront something like this, What decision is he going to make? And is it important that he make a different one from the one that Raymond makes? Or is it important that he makes the same one? I don't know. What do you think? I think we're definitely headed for some kind of decision point like that.

All the evidence in the show suggests it, as we've talked about, the way these two are circling each other, the fact that these conversations and points of contrast for Raylan keep coming up over and over and over. He's going to have to make some choice like that at some point. and he's going to have to decide for himself if it's worth it to get him when he otherwise can't, right? Those are the circumstances. Like if it comes down to Clement getting away, something Raylan says, like, if this guy, if I can't get this guy, I'm not going to sleep at night versus shooting him down in cold blood. What is our 2023 Raylan and Detroit going to do? I honestly don't know.

Again, maybe I give him too much credit because I didn't think he was going to Carolyn's house. But I kind of think we're going to point to him being a little bit more evolved, but maybe not. here's my, okay, all the Carolyn stuff aside because I'm in love with everything that Angeonneu Ellis is doing. But like, if we put Carolyn aside, hands down my favorite moment of this episode is when Raylan says, I want to wash my hands of this and go home and see my kid. And then in like the same breath is like, wait, who was the original arresting officer? Like not even a full like 30 seconds goes by between him. saying, I'm going to wash my hands of this, go home, see my kid. And this goes back to what Clement said about, like, you know, who are the kinds of guys

at Raylan's age who are still out here doing this. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. And the first time he's apparently talked or spoken to Willa is a text at midnight while he's waiting at the bar for Raymond to show up to which Willa rightly responds. Don't feel like talking things. Bye. Bye.

All right. Anything else you want to say about Raymond Cruz? I do want to say kind of a larger thing about. as it relates to some of the other stuff going on in this episode, because we talked about, window kind of talking, you know, he tells this story about how he got into police work in the first place. Raymond tells this story about his own version of Boy Crowder.

There's a lot of, like, storytelling and the reasons these stories are being told in this episode. We also get this great exchange between kind of what a burgeoning duo in Sweetie and Clement. Like, I thought this was the best Sweetie Clement episode so far. They got a lot of screen time together. They got a lot to do. And there's this lingering question as sweetie unfurls this tale of meeting Miles Davis. And getting to perform with him in the studio. And Miles Davis giving him this like big compliment at the end of the set.

And like literally afterwards, Clement's like, what made you think of that? Like what made you think of telling me this story in this moment? Because it doesn't really seem to connect to anything. Unlike some of the other stories. You know, like Raymond's, that's a pointed story. Like Raylan is asking about kind of these sorts of situations where you can't seem to get your criminal. windows telling something very topical. Jamal tells his version of his story

of his relationship with Carolyn that gets heavily edited by Carolyn in this episode. Sweeties, I thought it was interesting because it's the one we don't really have a clear answer of why he's telling this story. Because he doesn't really respond, and then the camera's cut to the gardening truck, which has nothing to do with anything,

and it's just sort of like, the stories you tell someone when you're sitting in a car waiting to go extort money from someone? It could be as simple as that. Yeah. I think it is notable, though, that it's the first time in the Sweetie Clement relationship

where Sweetie is holding the conversation. He is the one holding court. He is the one with the power. And the fact that they walk from there into Bert's house to extort him. And sweetie is wanting to run this meeting effectively and wanting Boyd to be like the menacing, quote unquote, half brother off to the side.

Maybe it's just kind of like setting up the dynamic he hopes will hold. Maybe that's reading too much into it. But it does seem notable that Sweetie is kind of like in charge of something for the first time. And then quickly loses control of that meeting. Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's the most we've heard Clement listen. And I think it's notable that it's about music, about a music legend. And this is something that Clement cares a lot about.

Him asking Sandy later if he has a good singing voice and her being like, you know what matters is that you think you do? Absolutely brutal. Just because you can say, Andy, you got to do a little better than that. He was very stone. Otherwise, I don't think she would have gotten away with that. But she's like, I see how far in the bag you are. Maybe I could just give this like F for effort, honestly. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue.

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Ultima provides balanced hydration you can enjoy every day. That means no sugar, calories, or carbs, and it's not loaded with sodium. Just delicious plant-based flavors you'll actually look forward to drinking. Shop Ultima on Amazon or in store at Target and Whole Foods Market. All right, speaking of Big D, as we were, I don't know, that's what Carolyn called in the D, Detroit. Let's talk about the Big D. David Cross. Welcome to Detroit. Welcome to Justify David Cross as Burt Dickie, kind of a bulldozer Bert,

kind of a classic, justified, maybe one or two episode kind of guy. This is a very season one justified. Sure. A guy with an idiot with a lot of money, you know, sort of thing.

But instead of a carpetbagger type, he's like a gentrifier type. Yeah, yeah. How did you feel about this? I mean, before we get there, two quick things happen. Number one, Sandy stares into the void

that is for milkshake and has an existential crisis. Who among us, Joe? After Clement told her to keep those pretty lips of yours wrapped around the straw. And then just in case we forgot, Sweetie very helpfully reminds us the Albanians are not fucking around. And he's like, I don't want to be peeled. Like, he says pealed like an orange, right? Like, we're not fucking with any Albanians.

Let's go for bulldozer Bert. Clement's still not cottoning on that the Albanians are something to worry about. still seems wildly unconcerned. But yeah, but then we get David Cross. Just the right amount of David Cross in a show can really do the trick. Station 11, great example, expertly deployed David Cross. I'm not here for All Cross all the time, but just to like a touch of the cross. A smidge. A seasoning.

What do you want to say about Boulder's or Bert? I mean, just a lovely guest starring appearance, as you mentioned. I love the way this whole dynamic, though, reflects on Clement when Clement has to just sit there quietly as sweetie is like making the case for how much money they should get for this extortion. And he looks as uncomfortable as we have seen him look all series long. Like, honestly, it feels like you can see Boyd-Hulbrook crawling out of his own skin,

trying to sit there and be still and quiet in that moment. And then when he finally speaks up, he completely drops his drawl. It's like, oh, you have a lovely garden outside. I think you have yourself a nice little grow. So I very much appreciate the Sweetie Clement side of that table. But as far as Bert goes, I mean, it certainly feels like we haven't seen the last of him. And I think with this larger exchange illustrates to me is sweetie is trying to exercise a level of control over this whole scheme.

He is trying to set. Restraint. Yes, absolutely. He's trying to set the number. He's trying to set the number low enough that it's not going to, you know, create a lot of problems. It's a test balloon for their scheme ultimately. And what Clement is showing is it doesn't matter how many safeguards you put up. He's going to show up in the dead of night and take the painting that he thinks belongs to him for whatever reason.

It does look a little coincidentally like the weird story he told earlier in the season. The tornado set up? Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I just think what we're meant to take from this, in addition to everything, everything very brilliant, that you just said, Rob is this idea of like Clement is always going to push it further than. than he needs to, right? He's going to push for more money. A painting, whatever.

He's going to show up in the dead of night. And he's just going to, like, you know, if David Cross shows, you know, if good old bulldozer birch shows up again, he probably wouldn't have, if it had been like $15,000, 10,000, whatever it was that sweetie originally agreed to to get the piece of paper. But it's like $50,000 and you're going to show up at the dead of night and take my painting. Like, that's not the end of that, right? And so Clement just constantly having, you know, or like Sandy being like, look at all this money you got.

Let's go. Yeah. And him being like, uh-uh. Our girl's got to refresh her closet. All her shoes got flooded. The Valenciauga sock booties. Come on. She's got to get some classic cocomo heels.

You know what I mean? Absolutely. Espadryls, probably, and Kokomo. All right. I also want to talk, before we had to start like Raylan and Carolyn and Jamal, I want to talk about Carolyn and Diane. Yeah. Diane, right under Maureen for my candidate as to who is in that book.

There's no question. Because Maureen, that's Diane, right? Yeah. So Diane has thrown her hat in the ring for this judge shift that Carolyn desperately wants. We saw, we both mentioned that it was like, it was a great moment to see Carolyn set up on them and like really, what does she want? What does Carolyn Wilder want? And we got a lot in this episode about her. feeling like, you know, she talks about the foot on her neck, all of her stuff.

Like, we'll get to that later. But Diane is giving her lessons here. Diane's going about to hoist herself by her own partard here, right? She's like, you want it, Carolyn. Go make friends with the governor. Move, you can't just wait for it to come to you. You've got to make some moves. Yeah.

Even make some power moves. And I'm like, Diane, maybe you should not have said that. Diane, let us remind ourselves as the person who said she would fuck the shit out of Kevin Costner. And I love that for Diane. but I don't love what I suspect is coming for Diane next, which is the wrath of Carolyn Wilder. Well, clearly, Carolyn will do the next best thing, right?

Like, if you mention the governor, she'll go talk to the governor. If you say that you would fuck Kevin Costner, she will fuck Timothy Alfon in this episode, you know? She's like, that's close enough, right? That'll do. Hat fits. What do you want to say about Carolyn and the book? Or does that feel out of order of talking about Jamal, etc.?

No, no, I think it's definitely notable here. And so we do get some, like a couple pages in the book, as Clement and Sweetie are rifling through it, looking for the right name. So I'm going through with a fine-tipped comb, you know, trying to find. Anyone we know mentioned in this book by name, there's only really one name that jumps out in terms of a full name that could give us any indication. And that's our guy, G. Yost, aka the justified showrunner who took some time away from, you know, making all these other shows to apparently like do some light to medium bribery on the. What do you think Graham did get in the book? Capitalism, probably. That Apple TV money doesn't go as far as it used to.

But notably, none of the detectives' initials appear. Most of the entries in the book are just initials. One set of initials that does appear is CW. And I don't think we have anything in the show to suggest that Carolyn would be in that book on her own terms or for her own reasons. Like, she's been pretty straight and narrow so far in terms of her applications of the law, but we know that she and Jamal have something that she's been covering up

up for him. We don't exactly know what that is yet, do we? Right. She said she's going to snitch on him. So I'm not sure if that's relevant or not, but the initials definitely kind of pop off the page to me a little bit. Interesting. And if she's not in the book, she's about to be, you know, spiritually

in the book. All right, let's talk about, let's go all the way back to Raylan Givens, waking up in Carolyn's bed. Yeah. She's not there. She's come back from a run. She's an early riser. He's like, what? She knocked our guy out. She's like, what fucking time is it? She's already gotten her workout in. He's already back, et cetera, et cetera. I'm obsessed with, and not, not in the lascivious way. In the like, what was going on in Timothy Oliphon's mind when he decided

exactly how low to sling his boxers and his wranglers? Because he made that decision. He's like actively pulling them down in one scene to be like, how low can I go for my devoted ole fans? Just like incredibly slutty showing from Ralen and all of this.

When your co-star has been parading around the show in a kimono and wighty-tidy, is like, Tim's not going to be outdone. And in fairness, looking pretty shredded out here. Oh my God. He's got, yeah, all the lines. All the lines are happening. Classics are classic for a reason.

and Tim Tim is here to play. So this never happened, Carolyn says. First she eyeballs him in the mirror. He's leaning against the wall. Everything is pulled as low as it can go for streaming on Hulu. And he says, oh, so don't tell everyone at school.

I was just like, their back and forth was like absolutely delightful. That said, how was it for you? I mean, Raylan, like, Raylan is such a bad idea and a nightmare shit show and all the sort of stuff like that. And then he does like everything he does this morning where he's just sort of like dousing her in charm and abs. And you're like, this is this is how this keeps happening over and over again. I love her response to that too. It was about what I expected it to be.

Which I think you could take lots of different ways. Exactly. But it seems like she had a lovely time. It really does. It really does. Especially like later she tells him not to follow. her, like, puts her foot down, says, do not fall in the under any circumstances. And then he does, and she kind of smiles about it.

Pretty pleased about it. Yeah. Also, when they're in the driveway and Raylan kind of kisses her off to work, the fact that they both need, like, a moment to collect themselves after that exchange. That was a kiss. Like, it was great stuff. Great stuff. That's how you know they slept in.

This isn't an 8 in the morning kiss. It's like 2 p.m. at this point. We're working half days out here. All right. But let's talk about Jamal shows up. There's a third in the party here. He shows up in this incredibly, like, incredible suit. Yeah, Tom Brown.

We're in a lot of Tom Brown this episode. Rob already rattled off his bona fides, his CV, style maven street pastor, occasionally a nutritionist. I loved this interchange between Jamal and Raylan, and also the one of the restaurant, which we'll talk about later. But, like, this reminded me, it reminded me of, like, the various times when, like, at the beginning, I mean, you're fresh on your rewatch when like, when Ava and Boyd were like living together,

we're not sleeping together yet, or like maybe we're just starting to sleep together. And there's just like a couple times when Raylan would show up. Yeah. And Boyd would just sort of like stand on the porch or stand in the doorway and be like, this is as far as you go, buddy. Like,

Raylan handling Jamal and all of this is just like incredible stuff. You know, tell her about, you know, like, then I want. I won't know, though. Like, all this, all this, all this shit that Raylan is so good at. What did you, what did you think of this, Jamal Raylan interaction? It reminded me a lot of another justified ex-husband too, which was Randall, the bare knuckle boxer of Lindsay the bartender.

Wow. Ex-husband of Lindsay the bartender. It's not an iconic, justified bear. It's not anybody's finest moment, except the writers who wrote that Randall stole all this money from Raylan after doing all this macho posturing bullshit to start a cockfighting ring? Like that's just great shit. I'm sorry. That's wonderful.

And we get a very like macho cockfighting vibe from Raylan and Jamal all episode long. Here in the driveway before Carolyn shows up later at the restaurant when she just straight up leaves. Like I'm not even waiting for the next basket of steamed dumplings. I'm out of here.

But I love their dynamic. And I love the fact that when Carolyn is around, they're not even really talking to each other. They're both kind of like talking to Carolyn as an intermediary in a way that... I'm so delighted that she left. Like the absolute dick measuring contest that's going on when Raylan flashes his badge. She's like, you just had to do it, right?

And she's like, you have your fun together. And then I love that their conversations keeps going. Anyway, before we get to the fact that the best Chinese food restaurant in Detroit is actually in Canada, yeah, I'm the go-getter going to get us. a few coffees. Like, I slept over and I'm coming back. Like, all these things that Raylan is using to signify. It's just so out-of-pocket, Raylan.

Just so extra. I don't think I can just let you in. And we know that this was Jamal's house, right? Once upon a time. But I thought this was, like, those exchanges and then the Sweetie Clement stuff, overall, I thought this was the sharpest writing of any of the episodes we've had so far. and in no small part because we just have more relationships on the board that have a little more juice to them. And Jamal's entrant opposite Carolyn and opposite Raylan too, like, I'm all for it.

I completely welcome it. I really hope we see a lot more of him over the back half of this series. Or perhaps that's the last we'll see him because Carolyn seemed very done. I do love that Carolyn was like when Raylan comes in with the coffees and he's like, you know, there's someone in the driveway. And she was like, oh, the Albanians. And he's like, no, unless there are black Albanians. And she's like, we're everywhere. And I was like, okay, but let's go to dinner before Jamal gets there.

And that's where we get the whole, are you good conversation? Are you good? I love when she says, Lhasafehr. He says, I don't speak Spanish. She's like, you know what it means. Again, just great, justified stuff on the table here. And then, yeah, and then she starts to analyze him. And he's like, oh, I'm getting an ex.

with my dinner, like, again, a great, very sharp line. And she's like, Ian on Vailen's like, try and understand his power, his, he's like, what he wants, his cock of the walk thing. Yep. And just interrogating that problem at the core of justified, which is this man who thinks he can, is above the law because he is the law. and how in all the ways that Raylan tells himself he's better than his father and better than Boyd Crowder because he is a lawman, but all the ways in which we see him to art sugar in on justified, like, flout procedure and abuse his power.

And that is it, we love Raylan. We root for Raylan, but he does do this. And so for Carolyn to call him out so quickly into their dynamic. You know, and for him to not, like, he's being kind of right about it, but he's not, he doesn't look uncomfortable. He doesn't look like he's leave. You know what I mean? Like, this is interesting to him, that this incredibly smart woman is sort of interested in picking him apart. I think that's, you know, an interaction, because by the time we meet Winona, she, like, knows real and shit and she's done with it, kind of, even though they're, like, together for a lot of justified. So to watch, you know, no offense to Lindsay the bartender, but to watch, again, a very smart woman

sort of pick apart the Raylan Givens thing is fun for me to watch. What do you think? Yeah, the railing given's complex, but it's not just, I mean, honestly, a lot of his love interests in the original Justified are that way. Not all of them are as bright as Carolyn, but all of them take Raylan down a peg at various points, push him, challenge him in different,

Oh, Ava, certainly. And I think in this case, Carolyn's pushing him in a way that alludes exactly to the foreshadowing we were talking about in terms of the Raymond Cruz parallel. Where is the series ultimately going? What will the showdown between Raylan and Clement ultimately look like? And that idea of Raylan saying, you know, kind of control what you can control, you show up, you choose how you react to things, and that's all you can really do. And Carolyn's seeing right through that and saying, no, like maybe.

Maybe what you prefer is making an executive decision, choosing for other people, affecting outcomes, all by yourself, having that kind of power. And again, it feels like another situation in which Raylan is trying to at least project some kind of growth, trying to show that he's a different person in a certain way than he wasn't the original justified. And another character saying, I don't know, my guy.

Are you? Are you really? We'll see when the guns are drawn, like who Raylan is, especially opposite. It's one thing for him to be facing down a relatively nondescript Albanian gangster and another thing for him to be opposite Clement, this guy who threatened his daughter,

who made it personal, who's sending him luxurious flower arrangements. I think it's just a different dynamic. And we'll have to see, again, when the guns are drawn, who Raylan is in those moments. I think it's been interesting the way that we've been talking, especially I think in the first couple episodes, the way we're talking about Clement

and the way that Boyd-Hulbrook is playing him as this sort of like mystical evil. It's city prime evil, but this almost like primordial evil, this like this just like malignant force. And I love how Raylan is constantly like, this is just a guy. Like he's not the zodiac kill. Like he's not like someone has arrested in before. Like this is he's trying to keep him down to earth.

Like he can't make this too big. This just has to be a guy that he's after. And again, I am, I do find myself like. Does this show feel like original flavor justified? No. But am I very invested in what decision Raylan is going to make when it's Pistols at Dawn with this particular villain? Yes.

Am I interested in what is going to happen to Carolyn? Because Carolyn has this, goes to Jamal's house, which he shares with a lady. Well, not his house, but his like, it feels like a slubby apartment kind of. Absolutely. Sorry. He's wearing fancy suits. He's driving the Lexus, and he has this schlubby apartment that he's... His dwelling.

His dwelling, his Carolyn Allemone paid dwelling. For now, no longer. No longer. It's cohabitating. He's just oozing charm. And he like almost gets her... The line that really got me... So close.

He was so close. He was very close. He just, like, put the purse in the drawer. He could have gotten it. This is the line that really got me. He says, I could have had any girl in there, but I put my arm around you because I've always wanted to give you the glamour you deserve. And that be, you know, and we, I mean, you can decide whether or not to talk about this all, not to make things too personal. But, like, you married your high school sweetheart, right, Rob?

There's, like, something about a relationship that goes back to when you were kids and kid dynamic. You guys, you folks, have a very healthy relationship as far as I know. This is an unhealthy dynamic that you can trace back to kids because I feel like him saying, I could have any girl in the room and I put my arm around you. Knowing who Carolyn kind of is, I'm like, was Carolyn kind of the nerd and he was kind of the cool guy? And so she has forever been made to feel grateful that he gave her attention. And that's sort of the implication of that line. It felt like not the first time because that's what he says, like sort of like right before he starts to kiss her.

and she almost goes into this, like, submissive mode as he does it. And I'm just sort of like, I couldn't believe it was working on her. Like, I couldn't believe it. It almost didn't seem like the Caroline. And then she snaps into the Carolyn we're more familiar with now. But again, I think some of those dynamics that have so much history behind them are so embedded into who you are, have so much power over us, you know? That scene in particular, their whole exchange at his. place. It's just all about the gravity of an old flame in that way. And that line in particular

is so interesting because it clearly has an effect on Carolyn. As a viewer, him saying it, I mean, really is, it icks me out. Absolutely. It's so manipulative and obvious from our like removed perspective. And yet for Carolyn in that moment, it's very persuasive. This is a guy who calls her carry, something else no one on the show does. Like there was a familiarity. There was a lived history. Wilder and Wilder. There's so much going on between them that even when he says he's a changed man and she gives the world's largest eye roll,

she's still kind of powerless a bit to his whole deal. And I like your read of maybe she was the nerd growing up and maybe he was like whatever he was, but he feels like the kind of person who has always been super smooth, who's used to being able to talk his way out of situations, getting what he wants, I love their interplay

and I love the way they're pushing each other and I mean, when he tells Carolyn she's getting emotional and she kind of has to pause herself from strangling him. But I mean, the line is long I don't like to overuse

the like give them the Emmy and like the line is long and probably city primals won't even be really be in the conversation but it should be because her reaction to that where she like she is. is emotional.

And she's angry, but she's upset. And then what she says to him about, like, you know, I need honesty. And I thought that was you and his reaction to that. But, like, her, I mean, she is just on another level. You know what I mean? Like, Tim can pull his wranglers down as far as he wants. But, like, she's just delivering something else on this show. You know what I mean?

And I just, I was absolutely captivated. And so for her to, the implication. is he has been, as you said, he has been smooth his whole life probably. The implication she has been supporting him in some way or another his whole life. And when she snaps and she goes to sweetie and she's just like, I'm tired of it, right?

And I want what's mine. On the one hand, this is so dangerous because this is what sort of we were afraid of this is Carolyn, you know, and she talks to Raylan about getting her power and then using it for good, you know, and he's like, oh, you're confident in the sobriety of your judgment, you know what I mean? Like, so for her, guess what?

This is justified. Her getting this book and exposing people who have skeletons in her closet, so to get herself on the bench, and then when she's on the bench, she's only going to do good. That is her justification. And again, I said this at the beginning. Like, I think this is Carolyn's season. Raylan's just a visitor. Yeah.

This is Carolyn's job. journey through her. Where is my moral line? Where is my boundary? What will I do to get what I want? What is justified in Detroit? What is justified for me, Carolyn Wilder? You know? Totally. And we get reminders on the Raylan side of that throughout this episode where it's almost like he's not fully listening to the Detroit people and what they're telling him. Like when Raymond Cruz is telling him this story, Raylan like tries to give him every out. He obviously pulled a gun on you, you know, clearly it was a situation in which you were right to shoot him, but he's slowly kind of coming around to the realities of this world, of this city and the way it, the way it works.

And I think Carolyn, in her own way is too, clearly she has an awareness of it and she's steeped in it in a different way. But she's, you know, she's fully in the game now in a way that is making Carolyn a great justified character. You know, we get this line earlier in the episode about the devil gave me a box of chocolates, I'd eat them. And she's kind of nearing that point. Like the book is her box of chocolates. She's ready to flex whatever she needs to flex to get on that bench to do what she thinks is right.

And that's, you know, justified characters years and years old. You know, if I, you know, I just run for sheriff and then I'll get things right. I'll just get into this position of power and I'll get things right. We've seen it over and over and over again. But in this world, if you're local to Detroit and in a position of power, some money changed hands to make it so. and Carolyn is willing to participate in that economy now. This is a great episode.

Very, very good. I think the highlight of the series so far. Yeah, I agree. Anything else you want to say about this episode? We haven't talked about him that much because he did get overshadowed by screen time, but a great Clement episode. I think my favorite line is when Sweetie's telling him about a bulldozer Burt, and he's like, I don't read billboards.

I have that in all caps in my notes with like aster's on either side of it. What an incredible thing to say. Yeah, I mean. And him smoking out back in the, back in the penthouse, wondering if Sandy has ever really looked at money, just really, really going to town on these $100 bills he's collected. I really enjoy his vibe throughout this entire Odyssey, even as all of this more interesting and theatrical and dramatic stuff

is happening around him, it's just a fun performance, even when he doesn't have a lot to do. Boyd Holbrook. always good as a as a as a as a as a small time villain I love him um that is justified episode we only through more episodes to go like we're sort of barreling through this season um we will be you know you can always we love feedback of the show but just to like let you have a peek behind the hurt and we're going to have to pre-record the next two shows because uh rob is is taking a beautiful trip abroad this summer.

So, you know, if we get something wrong and you corrected us on it, you'll hear from us in the finale. Posthumously, after Rayland has shot us down in cold blood. Yeah, exactly. You'll hear from us later. But yeah, stay tuned in the prestige feed for only murders in the building,

winning time, etc. And this episode was produced by my favorite Billboard creator in your, Steve Allman. And, you know, until next time, Rob, which is actually very shortly because we will be banking all of these episodes. I'll see you then. Bye! This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures.

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