The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Justified: City Primeval’ Season 1 Finale Recap. Plus, an Interview with Executive Producer Michael Dinner.

Episode Date: August 31, 2023

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney return to break down the Season 1 finale of ‘Justified: City Primeval.' They recap their overall feelings on the season, share their enthusiasm for the arrival of Boyd Crowder, and hypothesize what a future season of ‘Justified’ would look like. Later, Joanna is joined by executive producer and director Michael Dinner to talk about the epic return of Boyd Crowder, the fascinating process of Walton Goggins’s role reprisal, and much more. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Guest: Michael Dinner Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For decades, the Vietnam War has been a Hollywood obsession. Apocalypse Now, platoon, full metal jacket, first blood. These were blockbuster films, embraced by audiences and critics alike. And for decades, they've helped us understand a painful war and understand each other. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Brian Raftery. And this is Do We Get to Win this time, how Hollywood made the Vietnam War. Listen on the big picture feed. Speed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

Joining me, surprise, from Tramble in Kentucky. It's Rob Mahoney. I, Rob. I'm out. I'm on the lamb. I'm cruising around. Was it a convertible? Definitely a pretty smooth ride. Throw in my old clothes out the window, regardless. You made sure that the guard that you have bamboozled into helping you escape brought you a well-fitted vest so that you can look your best.

Always tailored. off to possibly Mexico. Hi, we're here to talk to you about the Justified City Primemable finale. The question is the name of the episode. The answer is Boy Crowder is here. I'm so excited. At the end of this podcast today, which will be, you know, our last covering Justified City Prime Mule on the prestige feed, we have an interview with the executive producer and director

of the episode Michael Dinner. So Michael will talk about Walton coming back and, you know, the final shootout and everything that happens in this episode. So we've got some great insights. from Michael coming, but we want to start. Usually we do this in like loose chronological order or like group of by characters, whatever. We want to start or I have made Rob agree to start with Boyd Crowder because, listen, I understand why, and Michael will explain why we didn't get Boyd all season. I understand that I literally screamed out loud in my house when this happened because of the sort of delayed.

gratification, the anticipation. But we don't want to make, unlike the show, we don't want to make you wait. So we're just going to start with Boyd. So I've already mentioned the screaming. Yes. The enthusiasm in my house. When we got the Kentucky,

Kentucky over the like orange jumpsuit clad tush of someone that I was like pretty sure I knew who it was. You recognize that tush anywhere, Joanna. Anywhere, sashaying. Rob Mahoney. Tell me, take me to your house. What was it like to see Boyd Crowder? I mean, I was just, I was just,

I was in full like MCU waiting for the post credit sting of like getting all our guys back together. So I was anticipating something and I was certainly going to be let down if it wasn't there. But you're right. As soon as that title card comes up,

that the location card, that's all you really need to see. Who else could we possibly be visiting in Tramble, but Boyd? That would be so funny if it's like Dickie Bennett still kicking somehow. Honestly,

we would be into it? Would everyone else be into it? I don't know. But I do think this is a fair place to start. I know the show itself would probably like to pretend that we can start somewhere else, but the episode is called The Question. As you mentioned, the real question is like, was Walton Goggins going to show up in this show at any point?

In your interview with Michael Dinner, as our listeners will hear, he even refers to that as kind of like the 10,000-pound elephant in the room. So we have to start there. And whether it really paid off. And I thought it was very interesting. Alan Seppenwall had an interview with Timothy Oliphant from before the strike that ran today. That had a very interesting quote about how Tim Alfon said

that if you're gonna bring Walt back at the very end of this story, you better fucking deliver on the first seven. Because the worst thing that can happen is that the audience feels when they see Walt, man, you put us through all this just to get to that, end quote. No pressure. You know, no pressure from our guy, Tim, on that one. I mean, you know, again, I don't want to sit here

and just like spoiler interview with Michael Dinner, which is, and also I loved Alan's interview with, Tim. It's a great interview. You should read that. I do understand why Boyd was not here all season. I do understand that they did not want to awkwardly shoehorn him into a story that's set in Detroit that is based on a book that doesn't even have railing in it, let alone Boyd Crowder. So I understand all of that. If this is the story you're going to tell, the story of Detroit, of City Primeval,

there was no way to fit Boyd into that. Here's what it's like. It's like we've been eating. I don't even like this food I can't wait to hear where this goes It's like we've been eating Peanut Butter sandwiches all season And we're like we like Peter Butter sandwiches Peter Butter sandwiches

Peter Butter Sandwich is good And then like here comes the jelly Here comes the jelly And all of a sudden you're like Oh I didn't know This is what I was missing And we knew I mean like here's the deal with Justified

An incredible show that we both love And as everyone who's a huge Justified fan knows was Walton Goggin was like supposed to be killed off in season one. Boyd Carter was not even supposed to be part of this. The relationship between Boyd and Raylan, which like really starts to anchor in the season one finale, but then just like blooms beautifully in season two, which many consider the best season of justified. That's the show.

And like a show exists where it's just Raylan and that's like what a lot of season one is. And if you watch season one, it's a good show. But when they unlock the Raylan, Boyd Crowder stuff, that is a great show. And so City Prime Evil gave us a good, sometimes great show. We've outlined sort of the moments that we thought achieved greatness. But I think without that spine of that relationship, it didn't really feel like fully justified.

And now we're not being promised that we're going to get the continuing adventures of Boyd Crowder and Raylan Givens, but certainly they put together a convincing pitch for FX as to what season two might be. So how much do you feel in retrospect that you were missing Boyd Crowder? Is he elemental essential to a justified story? How do you feel, Rob Mahoney? I think he probably is pretty essential to a justified story in the way you described. The original series is the story of that relationship. And what they tried to do here, and I respect it a lot,

is they really made, like, took more of a bookend approach with season one, really going all the way back to the first showdown we see in Miami, start of season one, episode one. And then we get kind of this mirror showdown with Clement Mansell in which Raylan does draw first. You know, something we don't always see from him. Usually always kind of on the defensive, waiting for the justification, waiting for the plausible deniability.

This is kind of the mirror of that scenario in a way that it closes a lot of, of Raylan loops that we've seen throughout certainly this mini-series, throughout larger justified. I think you can create like a certain path, a certain arc of development for that character. But as you say, you're missing that core dynamic that you got to button up the first time. And so you're telling a very different kind of story that is satisfying, that does work in a lot of ways, but leaves you wanting for a lot of the same reasons that you were tuning in episode after episode after episode for the original run of the series. A lot of that, that propulsive magic is not quite there.

And so it's good storytelling. I honestly really like this season overall. Yeah. But I think there's a reason, and this is kind of the blessing and the curse of the show, is like, I'm sure the people who made this show all would want us to focus on the story that they told. And yet, it's not a mistake that they're putting this on the back end of it

to try to spur the fan base into creating enough noise to bring justified back to tell this other story that the fans desperately want to hear. Totally. And I think what's worth outlining, I don't know that we've gone into like the full story of this yet. And Michael Diner alluded to this in the interview but didn't like fully explain it. So let me explain that like the people behind Just Fight City Primeval wanted to make just City Primeval, right? They wanted to adapt that book. They didn't want Raylan necessarily.

They just wanted to make City Primeval. At the same time, Timothy Oliphant is working with Quentin Tarantino. And in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. And they're talking about like, hey, what if we made city primeval, but with Raylan Givens in it, right? And so those pitches kind of make their way to FX at the same time. And all of a sudden, like, these guys, Michael Dinner and his partners, like, they're competing against a Quentin Tarantino-Timuthon pitch to make the same thing. So they can't really just be like, no, let us do this with Raymond Cruz. Like, that's what we want to do, the original character who is at the center of the ball.

book. So they compromise in a way. I don't think anyone's ever said it exactly like this, but they compromise in a way where they're like, okay, let us do city prime evil. We'll call it justified colon city prime evil. We'll put Tim in it. Tarantino will direct some. He will consult on the scripts and stuff like that. Tarantino eventually had to back out entirely. So he like read some of the scripts and gave some feedback but didn't direct any episodes. But that's how we wind up with justified colon city primeval. But creators behind it who are like, we're not making justified it was never our intention to make justified. So they're like, that's why we're not shoehorning Boyd in here.

That's why Loretta's not here. That's why you only get Winona right at the end, et cetera. So it's like a funny little creative push and pull there. But I mean, to go back to like why you need Boyd to make justified as rich as it can possibly be, I think the thing that I want to say about that is that the darkness inside of Raylan, which we see on display in this episode, like, when he grimly pushes the button to close the door on Clement before he, like, wakes in the middle of the night to go back, right? That idea that we've talked about a lot with Carolyn and Raylan of, like,

how much of the darkness of the crime-riddled town that you are associated with, do you need to absorb into yourself to become the sort of, like, avenging angel? What are the bargains you need to make? And all of that is satisfying storytelling, but it's even more satisfying in just the original Justified when you see that sort of dark mirror of Raylan bloom to life

in the shape of Boyd Crowder, when you can just see that dark side manifest, charming, devilish, like, exciting, all, and enticing and seductive. And so you're just sort of like, so you feel that pull even, it's not just like Arlo, who's a great character,

and the original justify something like that, but it's like boy, it's like Boy Crowder is the darkness inside of Raylan Givens, and it is such, is so irresistible to us that how can he possibly resist from time to time sort of like dipping a toe into that world? Do you know what I mean? Well, it's the difference between Clement Mansell telling Raylan we could have been friends and Boyd and Raylan actually having been friends. And I think it changes the tonality of the whole show, like to your larger point about

what the creators of the show ultimately set out to make. It feels very different. The tone is very, very different. And I think it's telling in these scenes where, take, for example, Clement being shut into the Man Cave Panic Room, right? Right. That's the kind of justified justice

that happens very often in the original series to criminals. Raylan often doesn't really bat an eyelash at it. He'll often turn away when other criminals are about to be murdered. It's just kind of like he has his own internal code and he's willing to like ignore some things. And yet the presentation in this show is that this is a grimly serious affair that this is happening. Like something, something dark is happening with this Albanian crime family and Clement being locked into this room. And it's like the level of familiarity between

Raylan and Boyd often or Raylan and other elements of the Harlan community are what give it that different tonality. To give it a sense of like a familiarity, a lightness to it. There's just a different kind of repartee. And I think you can play that the other way where characters like Clement can seem dangerous and unpredictable because we don't know them and Raylan doesn't know them. But the other side of that is that the whole shape of the show is different.

I love that you highlight that exchange because I wrote it down between Clement and Raylan when he says, oh shit, you came back for me, right? Yeah. knew you couldn't just leave me in that room. And then Raylan says in the beautifully like tortured sort of Southern Friedway that he has,

case you think it came to be. No. We ain't friends. And then Clement says, but he could have been and things were different. And Realin says, and if your mama had wheels, she'd be a streetcar. Great line. Great stuff. You can see it too. Like when Clement starts pontificating in very Boyd fashion about, you know, like we're all made of the same atoms and molecules that, you know, that pass force through generations, Rillen's like, just shut the fuck up. Like, he cannot be more done with this guy in a way that he would always kind of let Boyd finish for the most part. Yeah. Boyd wanted to sit down and talk about their daddies.

Their daddies and how their daddies are a part of them forever. Like, Realin's always his time for that. But Clement is like, yeah, and this is no shit on Boyd Holbrook, who I thought was fantastic all season. Terrific. This is a, in the larger framing, I would say, from Raylan's point of view, this is a pale imitation of the devil he knows, who is Boyd- Crowder. You know what I mean? And he's like, this might work if you and I had Doug Cole together, but we did not. So I'm just going to shoot you when it turns out you were just trying to show me a cassette tape.

So here's a what if. Here's a question for you. Okay. Do you think Clement was just going to give the cassette tape to Raylan and then leave, which is sort of what is implied here when he's like, why did you, I can't believe he shot me. Why did you shoot me? like I wasn't going to draw down on you. What do you think, Rob? I do kind of think so.

I think there's an interesting through line with, I mean, the music of this show in general and the character's relationship to it, but specifically Clements and his need for approval. Somebody listen to this guy's tape. Please. Somebody pop it in the deck. He is desperate for a friend to say like,

you know what, your voice sounds great. And maybe Raylan is just that guy who needed to do that. but it is notable that if you if you kind of freeze frame it, you can see as he reaches into his back pocket that his, his gun is tucked into the back of his pants too. So it's easy to see how Raylan kind of drew the conclusion that he did. You know, there is a certain level of defensibility in what happened. But that did kind of seem like where that exchange was going.

It seemed like he was trying to get the hell out of town finally at long last. But maybe for Raylan that time had come and gone, right? Like there needed to be some kind of ending to this whole, this whole masquerade. And I have to say, as someone who just watched Cape Fear, the idea of, like, the criminal being out in the wind. Like, it's a good thing for Carolyn. There isn't just this guy like skulking around, this nebulous TV ghost who may or may not be dead

to show up in subsequent seasons. It's good that he's gone for Carolyn's sake. Yeah. And for Sandy's sake. Oh, certainly. And for, you know, yeah. To zoom back to the beginning of the episode, what was your reaction when Clement is getting locked into the,

the man cave with the like cheese balls and everything that you could possibly ever want a man we got to talk about that um how have i never heard of albanians before what is your reaction to that line were you like justice for sandy who tried to give you a civics lesson in the beginning of the season or what did you what did you think good lord she tried this is why you can't run off you really cannot afford to run off sandy you know you you spook her you lose all of your geopolitical context. You want to talk about the cheese balls or what else do you want to talk about

inside the man cave? Okay, I mean, as far as the cheese balls go, so Clement, when he's put into this panic room, has kind of a like caged animal reaction where he starts like flailing about breaking things. Tantrum? Yeah. There was a full on tantrum

in a way that we just haven't seen him be like quite desperate in that way over the course of this season so far. So that was an interesting like character moment. But Skender, I mean, he's got this panic room pretty stocked. You know, of all the places you could get locked into, our guy's got a PlayStation in there. He's got a stereo system in there.

He's got the lantern for when the power goes out. As you said, this big barrel of cheese balls. You ration those things out. I think you could hang out a while in there. Don't you feel like cheeseballs have like negative nutritional value? Like they leech the nutrients out of your body when you eat a cheese bowl? It's entirely possible. But I think I saw some popcorn on the shelf, too.

So there's potentially some other food. round. All of which goes to say, it seems like the Albanian's plan is like, lock this guy in here

and just leave him there. Because there's not really a lot of protection happen. It's not being tortured. We haven't seen the Albanian tooth extractor come back out.

It's just him being stuck in this room. And ultimately, you know, like Balders Gate 3 is coming out on console soon. I think Clement

could do very well for himself if he just took a breath, rationed out his cheese puffs, and dove into an immersive RPG. experience for a little while.

We had one listener. It wasn't via email. I believe it was via Twitter, so I don't have it in front of me. But they were saying what they were expecting was for checkoffs, I can hotwire any car to come back. Oh, yeah. For Clement to be able to like hotwire himself out of there, which would be kind of fun because, again, Clement getting out of there feeds back into this thing. We've been talking about all season of him being this sort of like elemental evil that could just slip

through, like, how the hell did he get out of there? And it kind of would have been fun if he had gotten himself out of there. But I do love that we got a return of Skender, a brief return of Skender. Also, I just need to shout this out just because I hope the production team had a really fun time with it. You saw that, like, when we go to Skender in the hospital, there is an Albanian watching him and he is reading a magazine called Backside. Yes.

And that one of the article headlines is rear. admiral, did you enjoy that prop as much as I do? I've gone back to it many times. I've heard, I've heard the articles in it are great, you know? There's really a lot to go back to there. That's why I read backside, for sure. I've actually done some freelancing work for them before, you know, strictly in a writing capacity, but you got to pay the bills.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you used an alternative name on the byline. I get it. Of course. I just am imagining the writers room that day where they had the whiteboard and it was just sort of like, no bad ideas. Everyone gets a spitball, your backside article title. What would you call it? Rear Admiral is amazing.

But that was also the best the Albanians could do in terms of the security. Clement just, after he breaks out of the panic room, rolls into the Venus after hours, not so much as a lock on the door. And the closest thing they have to any kind of security is this dude reading backside magazine at a desk. Other than that, I got to say the Albanians, I'm kind of underwhelming. by really their whole presentation. The Detroit locals really talked these guys up and they just blew it.

Wipes them off the map. Absolutely folded. Except for that elderly man. At least he tried to do something. He's like, I, well, this is the question is like, come out on some like path of redemption as he like reached the bottom commits mass murder.

Yeah. But doesn't kill everyone. And then is going to, yes, break all the windows in Carolyn's place, like break the glass wall Carolyn's place. But just to give Raylan a cassette tape and then it'll be on his way. From beyond. I don't really know.

But it's done. It's over. Carolyn in this episode. Yeah. Carolyn makes her move, gets her appointment on the bench, gets a lovely bath courtesy of railing givins. She certainly does. She certainly does. A lovely retirement gift promises to like visit him when the winter gets cold.

How do you feel about the conclusion of Carolyn's arc here? I don't know how I feel about the ultimate bow on it of her getting to the bench. Obviously justified trades in a lot of gray areas. That's ultimately the space of this show. But it just seemed like a very neat conclusion for this. There was a lot of hand-wringing about Carolyn crossing this line she didn't want to cross. And she makes a deal with the Albanians to basically kill her client. she uses the power in this book

to basically blackmail another judge candidate out of the job and then she just kind of like strolls in and everything's cool and it's like this built in the show is this kind of triumphant moment for that character I just kind of was wanting a little a little something different I think

yeah I liked how I loved in the letter that she sent to Raylan like I've never sent a letter this good to someone with a gift of their favorite liquor and I really, I felt like I needed to step up my game. But I love that moment when she was just sort of like, I feel like there's maybe not a lot of people in your life

who would understand why you did this. So if you ever want to talk about it, like, well, and I like, I like that sort of like shared understanding. But in terms of her moral arc, I agree with you. I think we leave it in a bit of a unresolved place. And I don't know if that leaves the door open for more story from her in the future.

But it kind of seems like her on the bench is intended to be the resolution of something. I'm more dissatisfied by the Maureen ending, mostly because, A, I felt like it was very unnecessary for them to go to her house to grab her in front of her kids. Like, they're acting. They're doing her in favor when they're like, I don't think you want to make a seat in front of your kids.

And I'm like, why did you roll up to her house then? She's literally about to come to work. Into the office. What are you? doing wildly unnecessary. But when Maureen and like with love and respect to the actress who I quite like in general,

does this like Joker laugh moment? Like it's very, it was very strange to me. How did you feel about that? I feel similarly, but I think this is a good contrast point with Carolyn's story because is Carolyn's version of the Detroit way, which again, like she had a man

effectively like set him up to be murdered. Was it so different from Norbert's or was, are both of their versions of the Detroit way so different from Marines ultimately. Like if Maureen's great crime... And that's Maureen's point. Yeah. Right. It's like she... Whether she took money or not, she justified,

or she testified to send criminals to prison. At least that's kind of her defense. We don't know all the context of those situations, but it seems like there's just like a lot of assumption being placed on like, oh, this is the implicitly bad thing versus these other cases are just kind of like, okay within the world of this show. I kind of wish we had more examination of comparing these situations a little bit. Right.

So she says, it's nonsense. And I hope you remember that when you catch your fucking face in the mirror and think about your time in these streets and what you did to keep people safe at night. Like that's Maureen's point. She's like, yeah, my name's in this book. A, good luck making that stick. Yes. B, how is this that much worse than what you've done? And we heard Norbert draw the line in a previous episode where he's like,

yeah, I've done this, that, and the other thing. But I've never set up some poor sum of it, who I know didn't do anything. Who had the crime of being high on PCP and try to stick him with a double homicide. And they bring him up, you know, they bring Daryl Woods up again in this episode to be like, we get to let him free because of this. So, like, that's the line she crossed that these other guys wouldn't cross. But I agree that, like, the line is ever shifting. and it's not like a clear

we're on this side, you're on this side, and you crossed that line. The individual compromises in the moment, the small decisions that become big decisions, all these little compromises. But I guess I just don't feel like the show has a strong opinion on it. No.

I'm not saying it needs to be some kind of... Yeah, I don't think it needs to be a statement. I think it's more a product of... There were a lot of things to wrap up in this episode. And I think in this one, we really felt the difference between eight episodes of justified versus 13 episodes of justified.

And you feel it most in the supporting cast and their motivations and their plot lines being wrapped up because a lot of these characters just didn't really have time to come into their own in the way that some of our favorite supporting pieces on the original show did. Right. That's a great point.

Speaking of the original show, we go back to, we're back of Miami. We're at Dan Grant's retirement. party. We get the return of Matt Craven as Dan Grant. We get David Kekner is back as Greg Sutter. Just a wonderful gas bag in everything he's in. Kekner is like, you give me five lines.

I'm going to eat them up, leave no crumbs, talk about his daughter and how his daughter joined the martial service and how he didn't want that for her, but there she is. And then we get this exchange between Dan, a drunk, Dan Grant, usually buttoned up, perfectly chiseled, Dan Grant is all, you know, undone at the bar and talking to Raylan about how he's like, I mean, there's the hilarious part where he's like, if I had any, if I had any hand and making you the man you are, like, congratulations to me. But also, there's something changed in you, maybe post-Detroit. Yeah. I can see you in the big chair for the first time and all the time that I've known you.

What do you think the big change in Raylan is out of Detroit? What has changed him? Has he changed? I think there is a change in his willingness to pursue violence. Obviously, he's still willing to put guys down and to shoot people. We saw him shoot Clement in this episode. But in terms of encouraging that, egging that, seeking it out, like creating situations where that would be happening,

where it otherwise might not have been, that does feel different. And that's where I like, again, this kind of book-ended approach of if we're going to make this a Raylan story, I like that we get Dan Grant here. You know, the guy who sent him to Kentucky in the first place telling us that he changed,

even if we haven't seen like every dot alongside that journey to fully convince us, I think there's still a lot of the old Raylan poking through at times. But there's enough of it in those big moments where he is showing some restraint that even if he's not like had some kind of some moral revelation,

he's at least getting a little too old for this shit. So do you think him getting up out of bed in the middle of the night and Carolyn's saying, God damn it, Raelin, and he's him saying, great line. Yeah, I get that a lot.

So his decision to go back is the change. That's the difference to the Railin that we've seen before. I think so. The other railing would just sleep soundly. Oh, like a baby. knowing that Clement was like rotting in the man cave, which he wasn't.

He was on his way to kill all these Albanians. But there you go. How much of that? And I don't want, I do not, I'm not a huge fan of as a father of daughters, but how much of this is brought about by Willa's involvement in all of this? Willa seeing him bloody his knuckles on Clement's face outside of that hotel, that moment. I think it has to be significant that as much of a delightful. gas bag as David Keckner's character is, why is he talking about his daughter

in that moment? Like it has to all be in the mix and then of course beautiful Winona you know, when the question is like, why'd you retire? That is the question of the episode. Why do you retire? That's what Willa asks him at the end, you know? The look on her face when she looks off to the side,

after hearing the news of his retirement, are you fucking kidding me, guy? Are you goddamn kidding me, Rayleigh Gibbons? Are you serious? right now. But I mean, I thought great stuff from Natalie Zia. And I think that you know, her saying, well, you couldn't do it for me. I'm glad you could do it for her.

Yeah. Which I think she at least like 75% means. But 25% of her is like, why the fuck couldn't you do this for me? Yeah. There's a little screw you in that, which I appreciate. Yeah. So yeah, how much is this you know, Raylan, what, seeing himself through the eyes of his daughter. His daughter, we should remind everyone, he refused to like meet

for like the first year of her life. The bar for growth is so low. Simply acknowledging his daughter's existence was a measure of growth. Now having actual human conversations with her as a teenager, I mean, that's miles ahead of where we were laid into the run of justified.

So there's certainly kind of a through line between those things. And the fact that, you know, ultimately when he's, he's on the boat, at the end, learning the news that, you know, Boyd has broken out. He's having a conversation with his daughter where she's asking him, like, why he quit. You know, she's trying to dig into the thing that Carolyn acknowledges, like,

not many people understand why you walked away from this. And so there's, again, it's not a relationship that because of the structure of the season, I think we saw like fully fleshed out. It was really starting to stop in those first couple episodes. Willa gets ejected from the show. And now she's just thrown back at the end. We're going to see her again. And again, I can see why they're trying to wrap it up in this way.

And all the thematic ties you're pointing out in terms of the fathers of daughter's situation. I get it. I don't know that it's ultimately like a convincing reason why Raylan would change. Other than the fact that sometimes in life you just see people change by being the father of a daughter, unfortunately. Or possibly just, you know, maybe it's a father of any kid. Like, you know, as a father of a being. because like seeing himself through Arlo's eyes or seeing himself in Arlo all of that stuff was such rich text for the original series so to then flip the mirror and see it through

you know the child that you're raising yeah um the I consider the question why'd you do it the question that's sort of like it ends with that what's the question yeah blah blah why'd you do it I mean, the question is when does Walton Goggins show up and if Walton Goggin shows up. But that's at least the secondary or tertiary question. But Rerlind does this to Winona question I've been asking myself why I didn't do it sooner. And I do want to shout out this one of all the like visual flourishes, I think the camera backing away from Reland as he's watching Winona back out of the driveway and just him having to look at. and contend with the thing he missed, the thing he absolutely blew. Yeah.

And cannot possibly repair and knows that he has a second chance. I mean, his daughter is not his wife. But he has a second chance at that kind of familial relationship with his daughter. And he's well on his way to permanently fucking that up. But there still is time for him to turn that around, right? I mean, I think some of the trauma has already been done. Some of the core memories have already been put in place.

But he's trying to repair it one Elvis poster at a time. One, you can paint your own room. Oh, man, if I had ever been able to paint my room, I couldn't even tell you. What would you have chosen? What would your palate have been? No, it would have been like,

I would have done some sort of like patterned mural. Like, it would not have been a solid color. It would have been a nightmare, I'm sure. But it would have been my nightmare. How about you're up? What would you have painted in your... I think mural was the way to go.

There was a point in, you know, my early, like, tsunami young teenage years where I was like, I want a giant-ass Gundam mural on my bedroom wall. That's what I want out of this life. Fortunately or unfortunately, my parents said no. So, also, do you think Tim Aliphant was just, like, rolling up to set in band t-shirts

and they just rolled with it? Yeah. It seemed like that was kind of the vibe for these Miami scenes. 100%. He's like, I'm just going to wear what I normally wear. And I'm also not going to wear shoes. And we're all just going to have to deal with it. So you mentioned to me, when I asked you a couple days ago, if you had watched the finale yet, you were like, before it had aired, you were like, because I didn't want to spoil anything for you. You were like, well, yeah, there were all these like warning the toxic sludge inside this screener, enter at your own risk embargo notices from FX that sort of tipped you as to something that might happen. I did not pay attention. I don't read email sometimes. And so I did not pay attention to that.

So I did not have that, like blaring in my head. I did have, as we mentioned earlier in the season, some vague, very coy, very vague, like comments at the TCA panel that they did that, like, maybe we would get some people. But when Dan Grant and David Kekner's character and then whenona shows up, I'm like, is this it? Are they just going to leave me with anona and that's it? Is it just love and respect to Winona? Like, it can't be it. So let's just, I mean, let's just, why not?

Because we can. And this is a podcast that I'm in full control of. Let's circle back to Boyd Crowder. Well, also, you nailed it. You called that Natalie Z and Walton Goggins were going to be back as your prediction for this episode. You know, co-stars of the unicorn, CBS sitcom The Unicorn. And here they were. Both produced in the flesh, two for two, Joe.

Very nice work. I didn't call David Keckner, though. I never got a dream. That's a tough one. get the kek. And I will say, so, like, we're left with a couple things before I get to spend some more time thinking about Boy Crowder. We're left with like Schrodinger's phone call sort of thing. I feel like if we never get another season of Justified, if they, if FX does not take the bait, if the fans do not complete their letter writing campaign to please, for the

love of God, give us another season of this, justified colon, you know, Viva Mexico, or whatever we're going to do. Like, then I think Raylan doesn't answer the phone. I think if we don't see this again, my ending that I have in my head is that he doesn't answer the phone. But if we get another season, it's because he answered the phone. For sure. And it's like, Tamandoor or Rachel, probably Rachel, on the line from Lexington, you know,

from the Marshall's office. I wouldn't invite art back for another season. I would based on... Maybe not. Maybe not. Personal behavior since Justified ended. Yeah, Rachel got promoted. Great news.

Rachel was on that track anyway for the big chair. So Rachel... So what I... My fondest wish is Boyd and his new lady love take off for Mexico. There are a lot of questions out there for Boyd. He's got a kid somewhere. Ava is somewhere. He doesn't know any of that. So that is all rich material. Boyd and Tim and Rachel

I mean, sorry, Rayl and Tim and Rachel all follow Boyd Crowder to Mexico. Now we're cooking. That's a season of television. That's a show. It writes itself, you know? Oh my God. Subtitled to be determined, justified colon, Day of the Soldado, whatever you like. But I think we'll come up with something. Let's talk about Luis Guzboan who shows up here. Hell yeah. Who was in the film out of sight.

He was also in that like pretty bad TV movie that Railing Givens. James LaGroes showed up as Railing Givens in. That is on YouTube, by the way. I watched, I would say, about 30 minutes of it just out of curiosity as to like who Guzman played in that and what was going on there. It's really bad. It was very bad despite like Peter Fox in it. Like there's some great talent in it.

but it is like tremendously bad. But it is on YouTube. Watchably, enjoyably bad or just, just bad, bad? Just bad. And it just makes you appreciate Justified that much more because you're like, oh, this is what it could have been. Though there is the exchange that opens Justified the Miami shootout is from the novel, I think it's Pronto, and it takes place in Italy.

Oh, interesting. And you get to see that version of Rayleigh Givens in that terrible. showtime TV movie that is on YouTube, do the like, you got five minutes sort of stand off with the guy at the table. I was like, oh, I've seen this before. Sorry, but that's a long way around back to Louise Guzman, who has shown up in two other Elmore Leonard things. He's not playing the same character that he's played in either of those properties, as far

as I can tell. But it's just like an Elmore Leonard guy who's done some Leonard stuff before. How did you react to seeing him here? I mean, love him showing up in anything, as we've discussed previously when he popped up in poker face as well. Exactly. I mean, for one, is he an Elmore Leonard guy or is he just a guy? Luis Guzman is in everything.

So it is plausible that he would have popped up in multiple Elmore Leonard properties over the years. It's plausible as anyone of his generation who would have kind of zigzagged across this particular landscape. But a great play. You know, there's just no one I would rather see. get one-uped and stuck into the back of a prisoner transport bus. He wears the like sad puppy I've been beaten look so well, among many, many other things. Can we just get a fish shaking at the sky, please?

That shouldn't run the post-credit. Just like cut back to him in the track. Just being crouter. The tattoo removal, the swastika, is gone at fucking long last. I would say many, many seasons of television overdue that thing should have been sandblasted off his shoulder in season two. How'd you feel about that? I mean, just a smart business decision, I think.

But also one in terms of, I think, demonstrating something about Boyd's character and his ability to, as you're talking about with Clement Mansell, him being kind of this evil force that can escape any situation. You know, Boyd's version of that is he's just so slippery in terms of being charismatic he can manipulate people, he can control people,

he knows how to create a new group for himself. And in this case, that group is, I'm going to pretend to be a changed man whether I fully am or not or to what extent I've reformed literally anything about my way

since he's always been pretty craven, I think, and kind of pessimistic about the human condition to begin with. But he knows how to play people. And to me, that is just the latest wave of that. I don't know if I'm like naive about this,

but I always kind of bought, when he created this sort of like following that he had in the woods, and really justified, where he has fashioned himself as like a, you know, wilderness preacher. And then his entire, his flock gets killed.

Yeah. I was kind of bought that that was Boyd actually, like, genuinely trying to, like, change his ways and then, like, something so evil and terrible happens.

And he's like, well, why the fuck would I ever walk the straight and narrow if something like this is going to happen? So I do this. think that like once upon a time boy did genuinely try to do this but now here he is with the bible in his hand just like right back at it talking about his put talking about his malaise and you're like okay okay boy like absolutely i don't believe anything you're saying it's just been walking around prison

with a heavy cough you know just waiting for somebody to notice and send him to the nurse's office and then the look at his face when he when he like so he gets the drop on guzman the you know the woman who was broken him out pulls the gun or whatever we cut to him, like, making out with her in front of Louis Guzman. And then... How could she resist? You know, the pearly whites are in full effect. Like, our man's got the best teeth in the business.

The, like, the shittiest, eatingest grin of all time on his face as he walks away from her. He's like, does that answer a question for you? I mean, it's just like... I would consider myself the luckiest person on the planet if we got... another season of this and if it's Raylan chasing Boyd one last time. You're already getting David Tennant back as Doctor Who. You might also get Raylan and Boyd back into justified continuance. What if I just manifest everything I've ever wanted?

If there's anything else, you might want to start putting it into the ether. You're on a bit of a role here. Maybe I should focus my energies on something more important to the world than the white men I love are back on television. You tell me what is more important than Boyd Crowder and I will believe you. I honestly don't know it. The fact that, look, just seeing him back up there at the front of a congregation in full Boyd slash baby Billy mode, I ascended. So I can completely understand why this would have fulfilled all your wishes. It's so funny.

Mallory Rubin the other day texted me. She's like, hey, are you watching righteous dumbstones this season? And I haven't watched this season. I'm behind on that. And she was like, she's like, oh, it's just some great Walton stuff this season. on righteous gemstone. She's like, he's singing and he's dancing a lot. And I'm like, oh, delightful. But I couldn't tell her and I wanted to. I'm like, he's unjustified too, but I'm like keeping that secret so close. I was like, oh yes, Walton on Righteous Gemstone. That's the headline of

the week. Not anything else. Well, in fairness, I mean, that season of Righteous Gemstones, one, get to it because it's one of the best seasons of television on anything running this year. So highly recommend for any Goggins heads out there who haven't made their way to it yet. I mean, he's so good on that show. I wasn't a fan of Vice Principles, but I love him on this show and this character. He's having a great time. Did we do it? Do you think we did it?

Did we do everything? To we answer all the questions we want to about the question, the justified city premier will finale? I mean, we tried our best at the end of the day. It's really all we can do. I do have one question. Something that's been kind of lingering in my mind. as it's kept coming up. And that's, you know, we talked about Raylan's various music t-shirts.

That's kind of, you know, more subtext. But it's been, like, music as text for this season has been very important. Like, it's been more noted, kind of like pop music cues. There's a lot of discussion among the characters about music, about artists, about their backgrounds. And it's not lost on me that, like, Raylan is very, like, classic rock. We mentioned the Elvis thing earlier. Like, he and Will have this conversation about, like, going to Graceland. And so you do get these counterpoints between like him in that corner,

sweetie having these like very jazz and funk reference points. Clement, obviously being a musician himself, quote unquote musician himself. But him being like a Jack White guy who's of a very different generation than either of those two, but also like obsessed with blues guitarists in his own right. Yeah. It's one of those things. All three of those things are in conversation with each other, but they're also speaking very different languages in a way that I would love to know

kind of what the thinking was behind how prominent music was in the foreground of the show in a way that it just wasn't in the original justified. I feel like you should have interviewed Michael and I wish I had asked on that question. But I think that like if you set of something in Detroit, you're going to want to reckon with Detroit's musical legacy. We did get a great email from listener, Jim, about Jack White and the Detroit connection. Oh, yeah. And it contained this tidbit. I thought I knew everything there was to know about Jack White, but I was incorrect because I didn't. No, he's from Detroit.

I did know that he worked as an upholsterer, but there is a yes and part of this. Okay, so Jim says, before Jack White, made it big, he was part of some earlier bands in his home city of Detroit. And before he was a full-time musician, he apprenticed as an upholsterer and eventually found his own third, founded his own third man upholstery. So I knew all of that. That's what I didn't know. He's kept with a practice even in Nashville, where he in his studio reside. He was at one time in another lesser-known duo with his trade mentor, Brian Muldoon, called the upholsterers. Back in about 2004, Jack inserted 100 copies of their second single into pieces of furniture he was re-apolstering.

And as of nine years ago, to his knowledge, only two copies have been discovered. So if you're listening to this sitting on a lumpy couch somewhere in Detroit, you might want to slice it open to see if you've got an ultra-rare Jack White early LP. I don't know. CD in there? Yeah, single of something. but it is a lot to ask of people to just slice open their then newly bought furniture expecting like a Wonka level treasure hunt. But it's been like 20 years. Yeah. So by now the poultry is worn down.

So slice away, Merrill is what I say. And see what is waiting for you in there. All right. This has been our coverage of Justified City, Prime Evil. Let us go now to my conversation with executive producer. and director of this episode, Michael Dyer. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help.

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or visit zepbounds.lily.com. I wanted to start by asking you, I read an earlier interview where you talked about how City Primeval is the crown jewel and Elmore Leonard's work. But it's a 1980s novel, and so you had some questions, comments, concerns about how to update it for a 2023 audience.

So now that we've seen the entire season, Can you talk about which elements you really want to push in a 2023 direction? We just felt that we need to bring it into this decade and to where we are right now. And I mean, you know, Raylan's kind of a walking anachronism. And so we needed to update it in terms of some of the language in the book, some of the characterizations, you know, even some of the backdrop of what Detroit is today as compared to what it was, you know, 43 years ago. And the great thing about Elmore's stuff is that you need to know,

and Scott Franklin learned this a long time ago, what he was doing out of sight. You need to know when to get out of the way and when to embellish and when to create your own stuff. You know, as you know, it was not a Raylan story. It was this cockamamie idea to drop Raylan into the middle of this story. I'm curious. So you've directed what many consider to be,

the greatest episode of Justified ever, Bloody Harlan, incredible episode of television. And then you also directed a number of, you know, I think every season premiere after that on Justified. You have the visual language of that show. How much are you bringing that over into City Prime Evil when you're directing City Prime Evil? Obviously, we're in a different location.

Detroit is a bit, I mean, Chicago for Detroit, but you're shooting it as a bit more gray and blue-coated than the original Justified was. but are there ways in which you shoot, always shoot a Raylan Givens sort of showdown, or are there no rules like that? I grew up in Colorado, and the first movies I knew as a kid were Disney movies,

and the first adult movies I knew when I was, whatever, six, seven years old were westerns. And if you had said to me, people thought for years that I lived in New York because of a certain amount of neurotic quality about it. If you'd said, do you want to do a Western, I would have said, are you out of your mind? you know, it was fun to do it because one of my favorite movies when I was growing up was

the John Ford movie The Man who shot Liberty Valance. So going into this kind of neo-noir postmodern Western, which justified was, was fun because kind of the language existed and then it's how to be a little bit of an anarchist, how to take that language and screw with it a little bit. You know, so certainly there was a language that was established in the storytelling and justified itself. look, I understand why they called it justified city prime evil. You could have just called city prime evil. Because it's, you know,

justified was a story that I looked at is six years of a story about you can't go home again. And we finish that story. So certainly some of the language continued from there, the visual language continued from there. But at the same time, this is its own thing. Detroit's a character.

You know, and we can talk about it. In a lot of ways, I think the story, telling and the character grew up. And so there's some of the aspects of Elmore's material that exists in this eight episode limited that we just did. I mean, that's one of the reasons we did it. And also, I think that it pays homage to not only the book and to him, but to justify

the show that we did. So I think it's a mashup. It's the second chapter or the second act in this character. life and Raylan's life. It's a mashup between Western and American crime fiction. It's a little edgier than Justified, but I still think there's a sense of humor like Justified had. But it's a different story. And we only had eight episodes to tell that story. And so it's a different thing. But the visual language, to me, it's just, it's a continuation of what we did, but a couple steps down the road. There's certain conventions of the Western genre that exist, you know, when he has a

showdown, whether it's, you know, Mansell at a table or Manzell, it's in the color palette, it's in the composition, even the format on the screen, you know, we're shooting, we're not shooting 16 by 9 anymore. It's two to one format. It's a little bit more widescreen. I want to talk about this idea of Raylan growing up from the original series, but I wanted to quickly talk to you about Carolyn, because I love how you describe justified as encapsulating as you can't go home again. And we, as we've been. covering the show. We've been talking a lot about Carolyn being in a similar position in this show that Raylan was into his show, not that she's trying to come home again, but that she's entangled

in these criminal elements from her youth, and she's trying to walk some sort of straight and narrow and, you know, do something good for her city, for her community, and what compromises does she need to make in order to get that done. And it just reminded me a lot of Raylan in terms of this is her city, her city story, et cetera. So can you talk a little bit about Carolyn, do you think of her in that way? Or how would you boil down her story in this season? I think you bring up a really interesting point, which is, look, we've seen Raylan over the courts of justified. We saw him with different women. He was married before that didn't work out. We saw him with other women. But this is, she's really a formidable character.

You know, I think, of course, that's the biggest change from the book, not just the fact that she was white in the book and kind of she and sweetie kind of represent Detroit in this story. But I think what's interesting about her is that she's formidable. And like a lot of Elmore Leonard's characters, the protagonists, they may be good at what they do, but they live in the gray zone. I mean, you know, Raylan is good at what he does, but he has an itchy train. her finger and like most many, he's not very self-aware. So I think Carolyn has her flaws,

like most of the protagonists in Elmore's stories have. You know, you look at Karen Sisko, and Karen Sisko drank too much and she had a lousy taste of men, you know, even though she was pretty good at what she does. This is a story about people with baggage and secrets and people that are working the system. And everybody across the board, it's a three-hander, really between Carolyn and Raylan and Mansell, three characters on a collision course. But, you know, they're in a world that's kind of populated by people who are, you know, working their own thing. So I think that's what she's about. And I do think that you bring up an interesting point, which is that she is reminiscent of Raylan and Raylan's world that he

couldn't go home again, you know, too, in the hills of Kentucky. But she's, you know, she's had to pull her up by the bootstraps and figure out how to work this system in a system that's corrupt. And I think that's what makes her formidable, it makes her interesting, and makes her fitting to be someone that Raylan is interested in. So to get back to this idea of Raylan 10 years down the road, having grown up a bit, but we do find ourselves, again, spoilers for the finale, but don't worry, this will air after, in Carolyn's kitchen, in a showdown where Raylan shoots. someone who we find out was not going to draw down on him, at least not in that very moment.

We're, of course, meant to think about the story that Raymond Cruz told him in the bar earlier in the season. It's an echo of that. What do you make of Raylan's move here? Is this an evolution of the characters? Is it a regression of the character? Is it, but I'm justified? Like, what do you think of it? Look, Mansell does a really, does a lot of bad stuff. You know, he's a pretty heinous character. I think he's entertaining along the way, but he does a lot of bad stuff. And so you could make an argument that it's justified that he gets what he deserves, but I don't, I think Raylan sees that he's a dinosaur in a white. And I think it pushes him to the point we get to at the end of these eight episodes,

which is, I think, his second act where he's going to lay down that gun and badge. He's got this daughter that, who's 15 turning 16, who, you know, he has a couple of years before she's emancipated. And he's kind of blown it with her along the way, too. So it's a chance for redemption on his part. I think that's where we get to. To get to your third lead, to get to Mansell, who is, yes, extremely entertaining and heinous throughout, I love Boyd Holbrook. I thought that was great casting. We've seen him a couple times offer to play his music for people.

It's almost like this act of intimacy from him. What are we meant to make of him reaching for the tape for Raylan? Yeah, I think it's a way of connecting with people. You know, with Sweetie, they had almost like this, look, they ran together, and they did some bad stuff together, but it's a father-son relationship. And he desperately wanted Sweetie's respect, which at the end he didn't get, you know. Sweetie said, don't play me this, you know, cover shit that you, you know, that you've done. And the fact that, you know, Sweetie was a real deal and Mansell is terrible, terrible enough. pulling from it that way. Yeah, definitely terrible enough. Yeah, I think, if anything, it's a step

towards intimacy. I mean, with Raylan, you know, he's going to go and I'm going to leave you this as a memento, you know. So I do think it's an active connection on his part. I love that you, we get to a point where Raylan quits his job, just the very thing that sort of mensel accused him of not being able to earlier in this season, right? He's not going to be one of those guys who has to get dragged out of his position. He quits a job. lays down the gun and badge, connects with his daughter, is out on the boat, but we don't leave him on the boat. We go back to Kentucky. So I hear you that this is not a justified reboot. And I don't want to, you know, but talk to me about your decision of when to bring Winona in, when to bring Boyd in, what the conversation with Walton was like, etc. I think we always knew we were probably going to go to Winona at the end because of what the kind of existential issue was for Raylan.

And it was Dave actually, I think the first minute we sat down and started talking about this, he said, you know, I really, I really like to bring up Walton. What do you think? You know, the biggest concern that I had that both of us had, I think, was that we didn't want to have the scene where, you know, Raylan goes to the prison midway through this story and says, I can't get a handle on this dude. Hannibal Lecter, please tell me what to do. It just like, come on. But, but, you know, Dave's pitch to begin with was it's the, you know, 10th. thousand pound, you know, elephant. And it's going to exist. And people are going to say, where is Boyd and where, you know, where's Walton? And what if we brought him back at the end? So we started playing with that idea. So first we called to him. He said, oh, yeah, that would be awesome. Then we called Walton. Now, Walton's been really busy for the last six or seven years. You know, he's done. In fact, he was never supposed to exist past the pilot. I know. My favorite, my favorite trivia about Justified. Yeah. Well, we kept him alive when it

tested off the charts in Pekoyma or wherever they tested. So we went to Walton and we pitched him, this is before FX even do. And he said, oh, it could be interesting. And we said, well, let's write pages for you to take a look at. So we actually were writing the pilot to this and the pages at the same time and we sent it to him and he freaked out and loved it. And then we talked to FX.

So anyway, that's that all came to pass. I got to be honest. And Walton was the first to say after we read the pages, well, you know, there is another story after this story. But we, quite honestly, we did a nut for that reason, but because we just wanted to have fun. And if we ended this, if this were the last we saw of Raylan and we ended it here, okay, I feel good about it. If there's a third act in this guy's life, which I think there could be if they want to do that, well, okay with that too.

So anyway, that's how the wall. And everybody's kind of played balls. So I'm knocking on what we have like one more week left. Press has been really good about it. I mean, we asked everybody to just kind of be, you know, not to talk about it. Be cool. Yeah, yeah. Which I'm really grateful for.

You know, I mean, it's people that got all the episodes, we asked them to, you know, we were going to do an embargo and to please be quiet. And, you know, FX had a pretty good job of that with Brad Pitt when he did Dave, you know. And Walton's been great. I mean, he's done these, like, interviews for the last, at least another stuff. Oh, I don't know. You know, it just didn't make sense, you know.

I went back in red, after I watched this episode sort of like squealing and kicking my feet up when I saw that we were back in Kentucky, I went back in Redall of Walton's interviews and I was like, this, this, you know, very good job. Good job. Yeah. We all did it down at a good time. Can you tell me how Louis Guzman got involved as well? I don't know.

We just started talking about, boy, it would be fun, have somebody from Elmore's universe, you know. And so Luis, the line producer knew him pretty well. I'd never met him before. I always loved his work. And we called him up and said, hey, you want to come play for a day. It was, it's kind of a little Easter egg, I think. You know, I think, you look, Elmore loved this show and loved his character, loved Tim. And the movie, I think that he loved. And the movie, I think that he loved the most, you know, that that was about, you know, most true to his material was outside. So it was great to get Guzman in. And the other thing is that we thought it'd be great to have a character, I mean, an actor who's recognizable because then the audience expects, oh, okay,

from the minute you see it, okay, this guy's going to spring it. And as it turns out, he doesn't. bait and switch um this is not a coda promising another season of justified railing chases boy down to mexico or something like that but it is something that we could think about as a possibility if we're very lucky and very good that you might give that to us at the end of this show raylan puts down his badge you know there's a third act in his life if fx one to do it if the audience you know responds to this and uh-huh which is which is kind of like unforgiven.

You know, unforgiven in the beginning unforgiven. You got a guy who's up to his you know, wastes and pig shit

and he has to strap on the gun and go back out there again. So, you know, there's certainly is a third act that could

organically evolve from this. I think that Walton would be into it and Tim would be into it. And remember,

story-wise, Walton was foot in jail. He doesn't know he has a son. He doesn't know where Ava is. Yeah. And he's just escaped from prison.

So there's stuff to play with. It's very exciting. What I mean, what I love about the potential premise that you set up, again, no one is promising us anything. But if FX loves us and cares about us, they will give this to us. It isn't justified again because you're not telling you can't go home again. This would be a different story and actually a much more Raylan in the book story. And that's really exciting. and you have potential to play, you know, with more of Leonard's Western tropes,

like if you do, you know, standoff in Mexico or something like that. Like, that's really exciting. So I think there's so much potential there, but I don't think it would at all feel like a retread of something that you've done before. No, no, I think it would be its own thing. And though, you know, we approach it the same way, which is, if it's organic to involve a character you know

yeah I mean we tried to figure way to get Loretta into the story that we did in Detroit made no sense just because we love the actress you know but I'll tell you one quick little anecdote I did a I did a screening in I was in London working on a show I just got back two weeks ago and I did a screening for the London Film School

and I could not show the pilot of this because we had an exclusive arrangement with ATX to premiere there but I did show the pilot of the original justified. And it was great to see it again, you know, to watch it on the screen and people responded, you know, loved it. And I look at Tim in it and he's great in it. But I look at this and there's something about, like I said, the existential place this character's in and Tim as an actor and even Walton. I think you see that little, you know, little Easter egg of Walton in this. And the choices there may, the maturity and the character, what the actors bring to,

I think is fantastic. So it was cool to be able to do this again. And I really appreciate you talking to me. All right. That is it for us. Anything you want to say about anything that Michael had to say, I will say when he was like, we wanted to bring Loretta back,

but we couldn't figure out how. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to manifest this as well. If we can work Caitlin Dever into our season two of justified colon, whatever. And, you know, she is involved somehow in the manhunt for Boyd Crowder, I would be very happy. We're fully mind-melded.

That was the exact bit that jumped out to me too. One, just a big fan of Caitlin Deaver's work. Put her in everything, but especially justified, especially that character. I was thinking about it, like, could she pop up in this show? So it was comforting to know that they at least thought about shoehorning her in somewhere in here, too, because of all the prominent original cast characters, I mean, she at least has a tie to Raylan specifically that could make sense in any kind

story. There was a part of me, not in the like as a father of daughter's sort of thing, but like, there's a part of me that I was like, would it be fun if Loretta shows up as like a young U.S. Marshall and really has to like interact with her in that capacity. But I'm like, but Loretta was always going to be like the weed king pin, like queen of Harlan County. So like, I would actually like, you think she's a cop? Come on. No, exactly. So I'm like, I would, we need him to go back to Harlan and she is like running the whole the whole thing. That's probably what is a better, a better fit

for our Loretta. All right. Well, that, I mean, we did it. What a delightful and devastating time to be parting the ways with you, Rob Mahoney. I love it when you hang out with me for a full season of television. It's always a joy. I don't know when we will be meeting again, but I hope

it is soon. Thanks. All season is Steve Allman for working on this show with us. He's the best. Jack Sanders stepped in for him for the finale here. So thank you so much to Jack for the work on the interview and for this episode. And we'll be back sometime doing something, I promise you. Bye.