The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Mr. & Mrs. Smith’ Review

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

Charles and Jo give their thoughts on Donald Glover’s new spy comedy/drama on Prime Video, ‘Mr. & Mrs. Smith,’ a reformulation of the iconic 2005 movie starring Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. They talk about Phoebe Waller-Bridge’s previous involvement in the show, Glover’s identity as an artist, and what they thought worked and didn’t work about the series. Hosts: Charles Holmes and Joanna Robinson Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's your boy Johnny Bananas, and I'll be covering all the treachery, deceit, backstabbing, and murder from Season 2 of the Traders U.S. on my podcast, Death Taxes, and Bananas. I'll be joined all season by my fellow castmates to swap stories, provide all the behind-the-scenes antics, and sorted details from filming. So Sally 4th, and join me for Season 2 of the Traders every Saturday on the Ringer Reality TV podcast feed. This episode is brought to by Borris Head.

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Borershead committed to craft since 1905. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack.

That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale sign storeware. wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Hi, hi. It's the prestige TV podcast. I'm Charles Holmes.

Midnight Boy, good take have her, positive kick. She's Joanna Robinson. House Bar, trial by content, New York Times bestselling author. How are you doing, Joe? Charles, I'm so glad to join you here on this, you know, lighthearted brawl through what it means to try to, try to be in love with and connect with someone. And I love and adore you, so I'm glad to be your partner in this.

Oh, thank you. This podcast, marriage is back together to talk about Mr. and Mrs. Smith, the eight episode reimagining of the 2005 classic, created by Donald Glover and Francisco Sloan, the series stars Glover, Maya Erskine as a titular Smith, with a Rhodes Gallery of Amazing Cameos. We have Paul Dano, Bachela Cole, Alexander Scarsgaard, Sarah Polson, Ron Perlman,

the list goes on. Joe, we have to do this because this is five minutes that everybody waste talking about Mr. and Mrs. Smith. But your connection to the original 2005 Mr. and Mrs. Smith with Brad and Angelina. I'm glad you asked this genuinely because, like,

I thought it was absolutely wild when like the positive reviews were coming out for this show, great. And so many of the headlines were like, it's better than the original movie. And I was like, the original movie slaps. I love the original movie. I think it's phenomenal.

This is also very good. I don't think we need to like pretend that the original Mr. or Mrs. Smith is not a phenomenal, like, sexy action comedy romp. Like, it is such a good time. Watching Brad and Angelina destroy their lives and marriages because they're too hot for each other in real life. Like, we get to, we get the privilege of watching that. It is like too genetically gifted. potentially terrible.

I don't care how they are as human beings. They're absolutely specimens, just like absolutely hot for each other. And we get to watch that happen. Like, what a gift the original Mr. Mrs. Smith is. I love that movie. And I watched it recently.

And it holds all the way up. What is your take on the original movie? So I thought the discourse was very funny because originally when this was first announced, I feel like the discourse was very anti this. They were like, Fuck this show. How could you, Mr. and Mrs. Smith,

you're going to destroy the legacy of it. And I was like chuckling. I'm like, Mr. and Mrs. Smith is a very entertaining and great movie. But it's like, it's entertaining not because it's like, oh, this is high art. This is like, no, this is like the peak of a certain type of action comedy,

doing everything well. Like just the perfect, and I mean this in the best way, just like the perfect hamburger. You're just like they did every single thing right. I've loaded it up. I was rewold. watching it. I was just like, this is both as charming and as funny as I remember it,

but I never had the emotional attachment to it. Like, this is my favorite movie ever. All of the emotional attachment came from, I remember being alive when this was a thing. And just being, it's just being inescapable, like listening to my parents, have like arguments over Brangelinea and Aniston and just all of my connection was to that. And then to your point, when the TV show came out, It was like everybody who's like did the opposite. They're like, fuck that shitty movie.

This is great. And I'm like, they're both great. They're just also both so, so different. And I think the thing that I want to talk to you about is, does the series have like this barrier to entry where I realized even watching the first episode, I was like, I had to surrender myself to the Donald Gloverness of it all and the trolling of it all and being like, this is a meta. a show that is not only leaning into the things that made the original Mr. and Mrs. Smith

Great, but are also kind of upending them and poking fun at them and doing it in a way that I was like, oh, I'm used to this since, because I've seen Atlanta, I've seen so much of this, that I was like, oh, no, I was not ready. I had to almost leave my emotions about the original movie at the door. Is that fair? Yeah, I mean, I think when you're, when someone takes a property like this, like this, This is IP essentially and sort of does something with it. I don't know about barrier to entry, but I would say it has to prove that there's a reason for it to exist, right?

Like, however you feel about the 2005 movie, whether or not you love it or you're like, it's fine, it's a good movie that people like, right? Like, it doesn't have any bad reputation associated with it unless you're Jennifer Aniston, right? And so like, so what more do we have to say about this, I think, is the question, when something like that happens. Because there's plenty of like remakes or remixes or sequels or prequels or whatever where you're just like, you're like running on fumes of this property. I have nothing to say about it. And I never was worried about that for this show, even from the beginning when it was

originally going to be Phoebe Weller Bridge and Donald Glover. Because I was like, those are two incredibly smart and thoughtful people who, if they take on something like this, will have something to say about it. So what I got caught up in was imagining, I kept imagining what the show would be if it had been a Phoebe Weller Bridge, Donald Glover, like, joint. I'm very curious why she left. The final project is very, like, Glovercore, and I like that a lot. But I was like, what would that cocktail have been if you would put, like, the Phoebe Weller Bridge touch on top of, like, it seems like her leaving to me says those were incompatible. vibes. Like, you know, no, no maybe hard feelings, but just sort of like, these two things

aren't working. So Glover's going to run the show and does, I think has a lot to say, does a great job. But I kept thinking about, like, what is this other version of the show? That's what I was, like, more than the movie, I was haunted by this, like, because I love Maya Erskine. I think she's great. And I was thinking even more of like, Phoebe Waller Bridge is a writer, even more so than, like, a leading actress. I don't know. What do you, were you thinking about that at all or did you like I was because the the way you pitch this show and like the genius of it in the better way is like if it is like Donald Glover and Phoebe Waller Bridge you're like well they're not the movie stars that Branjolina were but they are the stars of this new era very much fleabag and Atlanta are two of the when you look at that new generation of prestige TV you're like oh this makes sense that they're together because they both changed TV in very radical ways. and reading about the show and the conception, a lot of people have been asking Donald,

like, why didn't it work with Phoebe? And it's very funny in, you know, Glover's way. He's just very honest. He's just like, you know, the Atlanta Writers Room was a place where we could say an idea was shit or we could like clown someone and it had that energy.

And he was basically making it seem as if he's like, Phoebe did not have that energy and like our visions were so, different. He was like, I didn't want to ruin the friendship by, like, us arguing over the vision. And I started thinking about it. And I wanted to ask you, I feel like Atlanta and Fleabag are not that close of shows. Like when you, like, I think we kind of group them together because they come out around the same time. They do very similar things. Two comedic. Actors almost kind of like painting their vision of a world in such a singular way that were like,

these shows and these visions of court, like two great tastes that'll take straight together. And I tried to think about it. I'm like, I don't actually know what the Phoebe Waller Glover version of this show would be. Like, do you? Like, I don't even know if it actually would have worked. I, I'm so,

I, like, genuinely, I do want to see them work together someday because, like, again, I really like my Erskine. She was, you know, the lead actress in one of my favorite shows of all time last year, Blue Eye Samurai, like, great. tremendous voice, voice acting work from her. Pem 15 is good. I've seen some of her film work. I like her.

So none of this is like a knock on her. But there is like, there's an archness to Phoebe Waller Bridge, her humor that is, my, our skin's more like dry, dead pan, like that sort of thing. And she's still like very funny, but it's a very different tone.

And so I feel like, I feel like the spy stuff would have been sort of a little, this is my one complaint, I love spy shit. I love a heist. I love missions. I love spy shit. I could have done with like even more spy shit than what we got. Because like the whole point of Mr. Mrs. Smith as a movie as a TV show is like it's a metaphor for a relationship. You know, the movie is like what happens when you're several years into a marriage and you've lost your focus on each other and lost that spark and are too focused on your career or whatever the case may be and rediscovering that.

And this is different in that. It's like, what are the building blocks of a relationship? What are the more of the milestones we take in our first foray through our relationship and finding a connection with someone? So, like, at the core, those are like the same ideas, and I really like that. But I think to keep my attention over the course of this series, and I really liked the series a lot, I liked the end of it so much. Like, I think it ended on so.

such a high place with the last three episodes that, like, it overall made me enjoy the whole season that much more. But I think probably around, like, episode four or five, five, I think was, like, the toughest one for me. I was a little like, is this as fun as Mr. or Mrs. Smith? It doesn't have to be. I don't know. It's a different kind of fun, you know, I mean, but it's not as, like, so I feel like Phoebe Weller Bridge brings that kind of, like, arch comedic energy to things. And then she also likes really dark shit. So does Donald Glover, but like, you know, if you

think about the first season of Killing Eve with Phoebe Willer Bridge did, or you think about Fleabag, she has this, like, toxic take on love and relationships that I think might have been interesting to like, because I don't think of

these two characters as, like, toxic for each other. I think of them as like missing each other in their attempt to connect with each other. but Phoebe does that like really juicy like you're like I don't know that I should be rooting for these two sort of thing that I find pretty irresistible but but so I do think that there is a version of this where you add her in and it is like even more something even more but I really like what we got because I love I love it Lena I love don't Glover I love his whole vibe

and this is very Glover vibe like the whole thing for sure I mean, you were kind of, I think, hinting at it. The thing that I did not get until I kind of finished this season was I was always like, am I buying the chemistry between Glover and Erskine? Where it's not, it is not the original Mr. and Mrs. Smith, and this is why I think it's probably intentional where that's lightning in a bottle. You are quite, I think Jolie has even admitted it was like, you're seeing two people fall in love on screen.

You can't really replicate that. And I think this series I was like, is the fact that their chemistry is so slippery, almost the point? Because there was never a point watching this where I was just like, oh, that was the first spark of this relationship. It was almost like these two people were put together by a company. They're in a confined space. Like Donald Glover is this horny gremlin. Maya's Jane is like this sociopath who is like can only. connect with her cat.

And it's like the first time they even have sex, I'm like, this isn't like, this isn't giving me the feeling the first Mr. and Mrs. Smith did. This is giving me the feeling of like watching like my two good friends like hook up in the bar. And I'm like, can you do this at home? I'm like,

but then it was like I started to grow to almost like that take because I think the original Mr. and Mrs. Smith is pitching almost a version of domesticity and marriage. that was very of the 2005, that era where it's like, oh, no, at the end of this, not only are they going to reaffirm why marriage is so important, but it's like you're going to leave the theater and be like, oh, man, love is dope. And I left this one being like, oh, the thing about marriage is it's work. Like when you actually ask, like, older people who have been together for like 40, 50 years,

you're like, give me some advice. And every single time it's like, hey, man, you know, marriage. You know, you're always working at it. And that is what this series gave me, where it's just like, oh, once you choose to be with someone, hey, man, you got to make a lot of tough decisions, and chemistry's not always there. The spark is not always there.

And in the original Mr. and Mrs. Smith, the spark was the point. It was all, it was ever present. So do you think that is maybe also what's kind of difficult about this series? It's like they kind of ground the love and marriage part way more than I thought you could. a spy vehicle? I mean, I like that interpretation a lot.

I think there's a couple moments that really reinforce that interpretation. Like the whole sequence with Sarah Paulson's therapist character, great echo of William Fickner in the original film. But her talking about how they're choosing each other, that this is a choice, they're actively choosing to be together. And the looks in their faces and a look on all of our faces because we know that it's not a choice for them, that they're. are like bound here or they'll be killed, right?

Like there's no, there's no like, can I, can I just switch Johns? If you switch John's, probably your John will get killed or something like that. You can't just do that. That's what we learned from the other Smiths. So there's that moment. And there's also in the Michaela Cole episode when Michaela Cole's character saying, like, talking about compatibility and incompatibility, and her saying that John had said he wanted to be with her incompatibly, which is one of the most romantic things I've ever heard in my life.

Like, I thought it was so beautiful because we talk about, we talk about compatibility all the time. We talk about, like, growing with each other. We talk about, like, you know, sometimes you outgrow the person or, you know, your lives go in different directions. But, like, that idea of commitment being something that you choose. And even as your personalities diverge or even as your compatibility diverges, you, you choose each other or you want to be, there's something else about that person,

even if you have never read a book and they love to read every night where they go to bed or whatever it is, that there's something else about them, sort of like ineffably about them, that you want to be around them. I thought that was like a really beautiful concept. So I agree too,

because it's like there's also, to your point, I'm like Donald Glover almost can't. Like he's, not only is he like a comedian and a stand-up, but when you listen to some of his music, you're like, he's a pop artist, so he does almost hide, like, there's a lot of medicine in this show, but there is the honey of it was like, there is a positive interpretation of like what love can do

to you. And to your point, I found it so interesting that so much of this show is almost very, is interrogating marriage as a business where it's like, no, this is a business proposition. When they ask each other in the second episode, why are you doing this? They're like, well, you know, the money. And when you think of like, most of the people I know who are either married or why they stay together, they're just like, oh, it has become a business.

It is like, well, we have this like apartment. We have the mortgage. We have these kids like, oh, man. It's just like, yeah, man, you keep rolling on and the series does a good job of being like, yeah, man, sometimes it is about the love. But sometimes it is about like staying with someone

when they want to chase the really, really big job and you just wish that you could be delivery people together. And that is like almost too real of a thing to try to interrogate over eight episodes because to your point, I was like, hey, man, I can do marriage story for two hours. I don't know if I can do it for it. Like there were episodes where I was like, I'm like, guys.

Well, I also think that there were times when the metaphor got a little strained because I really love the like, you know, the invadality episode I thought was really good with Michaela Cole or, you know, therapy episode. As I said, I thought was really good. I think the least successful was like Ron Perlman sort of acting a child. Like I thought they just like really, you know, this like, you know, this like, you know, target or whatever, this person that they have to escort. And it's Ron Perlman. And the whole like joke is that he's acting like a child. So they have to act like parents around him. And it forces their own comfort. conversation about having kids and whether or not they want them. But I was just like, you didn't need to like dress them in jib jams to make the point or have him like vomit on each other or on himself or need a nap or like, I thought Ron Perlman was hilarious. Here's the thing, it's my comedy when like Donald Glover just doesn't give him the cigarette.

I was like, oh yeah, that was great. This is like, like, I was just like, to your point, I was like, oh, Ron Burmael has a baby. I don't know if I'm taking it. And then when he starts freaking out at Donald Glover for not getting the cigarette, I'm like, I don't care. The punchline was worth it. I thought the best part was when he lit up the cigarette later and she, like, reacts and he's like, I don't know why I did it. I just did it.

I was like, that was great. That was really funny. Here's the thing, too. I think why I'm so high on the series, even though I have a lot of notes, is because there is a version of this show that is, and this is no shots at the other show. Like, there is a version of this that is like, Jack Reacher or Jack Ryan or just very much middle of the show. the road like popcorn fair. There's nothing wrong with that. And to take this type of thing and be like, all right, we're going to get so weird with it,

where it's like, I don't know if all eight episodes had the momentum, but this is where big spoiler alert, when they end on that shot of you see the three, I think it's like three gunshots and you don't know whether our John and Jane made it. The whole series I was trying to be like, do I care about these characters? I don't give a fuck about them. Who really cares? Whatever? And then when I had to start to think about not only them not making it,

but their version of marriage and love, what you were talking about, like, can two incompatible people, two people who have all of this against them, survive the odds and make it? And when it leaves it ambiguous at the end, that's when I got emotional because you're just like, oh, that is a true. That is just something so true about the human existence,

about like, I've seen the best of people, people who love each other dearly, just not, like it just not work out. And you just try, you're with your friends, like, they were perfect, like, why didn't it? And I was like, oh, no, that is, that's life. That's life as you get, as you age. And I was like, that, that's a bold choice.

I like that. I just love a sort of like Rorschach ending of like, it's sort of like the, the Bush Cassidy Sundance ending, right? We're like, but you know those two, those two aren't, those two didn't make it, you know, when like that movie ends before, you see them gun down, but you know they're not going to make it. But this is more like,

choose your own adventure. You can decide or debate or whatever with people, whether or not this is a really, you know, we open the season with a John and a Jane not making it, right? And so we close. I don't know if you ever do the thing where you're like, because the finale was like a sort of supersized. It was longer than all the other episodes. And I don't know if you ever do the thing that I do where I'm like, I check the status bar to see. like sort of, not that I'm impatient. I'm just trying to like, what's the rhythm of this episode? Like, where am I

in the final act of this episode? Not because I want to dead. I'm like, where's, I'm like, oh, the first act has ended. Like, and then, especially for like pilots and finallies. I am benchmarking like, they have enough time to either pull off a really big twist or this

is just the rhythm that it's going to be for the rest of that. Yeah. So I was watching, they like, make it into the panic room, which you know they're going to go to because they like, you know, called it out and, you know, I was like, don't show Parker Posey the panic room. She's clearly going to come back later. And screw you. Are you kidding me?

Anyway, so, like, they go to the panic room and I was just like, there's not enough, there isn't enough time. I was like, are they going to give us, are they going to give us the ambiguous ending? And I love an ambiguous ending. I absolutely love it. I, like, eat it up. I just absolutely adore it. So the fact that it ended on that, and I thought that final episode was really good, because like the whole thing with the whole thing with the original Mr. Mrs. Smith, you're right,

it's a perfect burger, it's popcorn movie, all that sort of stuff. But there is something to be said about the secrets that we keep inside of a relationship or the way in which we don't show our true selves. Like if you think of that original movie, Angelina Jolie in order to like, her character, in order to hide her espionage life, turns herself into this like perfect stepford wife of like everything is perfect, she looks perfect, the meal is perfect, all this or stuff because she feels like that's what she needs to do to be in this marriage. She needs to be perfect. And it's not until they, like, reveal their absolute messiest selves to each other

in that, like, extraordinarily perfect fight that they have in that movie where they destroy the house, which they echo in the show. Like, then they show each other to each other and they're like, oh, guess what? We're madly fucking in love with each other. But it's only when you show that messiness. And in the show, that comes through in the truth serum scene, which both did and didn't work for me. Like, there were some aspects of the, like, ecstasy-laced truth serum that I was just sort of like, it went, like, maybe a little longer than I needed it to. But, like, at the core, it's, like, time for hard truths.

How that just, like, brings them together in a way after they've been separated after, you know, and I love Donald's use of his own mom in that episode. I thought that was such a good payout for the season long mom stuff. The Paul Dano anti-twist, when like we all see him, we're like, this is a casting spoiler. He has to be. I like, yeah, I loved it.

I was like, yeah, I loved it. And I was just like, oh, they did, they did the one more reversal where I was just like, oh, I didn't know where it was going. He's like, y'all got. He's like, you're not high high? I was like, you're not high high. I thought for 100% certain you were.

So that was brilliant. Yeah, so I loved, I loved. I loved the Michaela Cole episode of the Sarah Paulson episode and the final episode. I thought those three were like absolute bangers. And maybe this is like maybe this is like a six episode season. If this were like six episodes, it would be like all killer, no filler. As it is, there's like maybe like a little bit of filler that, you know, I could see tightening up.

But that wasn't your question. I don't know. Did I answer your question? You did answer my question. But you brought up something interesting because rewatching the original, I think they took something very, very small from the original. kind of blew it up where one of my favorite kind of like mini gags of of the Ranjolina movie is they're basically like revealing their past as spies and like how many people like how many bodies they have and of course it's supposed to be like the classic like

how many people have your body count yeah yeah yeah and like angelina's is so like she's killed so many more people than Brad and Brad is just like he's kind of at this point kind of coming into his comedic talent and it's like the look on his face of like that is hilarious. And this show does a very good job of like, I was like, neither of them are good spies, but Donald Glover's Sean is terrible. Like I was just like, he kept

doing shit where I was just like, you're gonna be in a spy with asthma? Yes, like, I was just like, he's terrible at this. But what I loved was I was like, the tension of the entire series learning that, okay, Jane not only is like

the company person, but it's like, that is also something that is like, you can use the spy context in a really, really good way of like, what happens when you marry someone in a hurry and you start realizing, which I think is the classic sitcom structure is like, my husband doesn't do shit. Or like this person that I fell in love with when my hormones were at their peak is not the father I expected him to be. He's not the partner I expected him to be. He's not even as ambitious as I want him to. And I think that's also the thing that if I was nitpicking,

I almost wanted slightly the more comedic version of this show, the more bubbly version because the things that kind of work the most were when like Donald Glover is like freezing and Maya has to like warm his like frost-bitten penis or they're having

like the fart jokes or there's this moment when they're at the ski lodge when they're getting into like one of their first big arguments as a couple and he just like cocks his hat to the end to like on a beat And I was like, oh, there's a, there's a version of this show that is like 25% less prestigious and more sitcomie. Am I, am I wildly?

No, that's what I mean. It's like, again, I really do like my airskin, but like some of her line delivery, I was like, if Phoebe Bauer Bridge were delivering the same line, it would be hilarious. Like, she's just funnier, more overtly funny than my air skin is. Again, I think she's just like really dry in a way that I like. But I think this could have used like a bit more obvious, to your point, humor, to balance out the headier things it's trying to say about relationships, you know, the honey for the medicine, as you say. And so, like, yeah, I think, I think the mix was slightly off. Do you also think that it is, because Maya's humor is almost so much kind of in opposition to Donald in terms of just like how they get their laughs, Are you saying you probably need someone like Phoebe

who actually can kind of like go toe to toe with someone? I actually think she and Donald are kind of too similar in that like Donald is very like outside of community, which is like a different Donald, it's like almost like a different person altogether. So like leaving who he was on community aside, how he gets laughs and like some of his stand-up comedy, but how he's gotten laughs in like Atlanta,

that's like very low-key below the surface humor. At least that's my feeling on it. And so, like, I think he and Meyerable, almost like both too subtle in their, in their humor and that you need someone just like a little broader, which is why I think someone like, like, like, Michaela Cole, I thought was like a really good energy. She brought, she's just so good. Yeah. God damn. Like, why aren't we getting? I was so mad.

This is like a good, like, sort of ringer versus crossover. Watching that episode, I was so mad that she wasted any of her time on a Marvel movie. when I'm just like, that's not the place for you, Michaela Cole. You are so good. And I'm so mad. What Marvel movie was she in? Wakanda Forever. Like, barely.

She's one of the door of the Lush. Oh, that's why I forgot. Like, I actually was like, I'm not, that wasn't like I'm being an asshole joke. That was literally like, I was like, wait, she was in a mom. Yeah. You know, she says like, you know, she makes her, I mean, she's made several incredible shows,

wins a bunch of like Emmys and then like, or at least an Emmy. and then makes a Marvel movie, which is like, was the move at the time, but I'm just sort of like, that's not the place for you. Like, this is the place for you. McKailie Cole, please give us all of this.

I just think she's so good. But her energy, that energy really felt like it brought the whole thing up. I think Sarah Paulson, too. Like, every time Sarah Paulson's fucking insufferable character was like talking about some other country, like tribe that she was familiar with or an item in her house.

like all that sort of stuff. I thought she was so funny. So stuff like, yeah, I just, I feel like we need more of those like shot in the arm. Maybe that was the idea. It's like you get a Parker Posey in or you get, you know, Sharon Horgan in or whatever to balance out the more mellow humor between the two of them. But when it was funny, it was so, I mean, also, I mean, Donald Glover is just so good. Are you looking for support in your weight management?

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Call 1-800-545-99 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. I have a question for you. Yes. Donald Glover. He lampshades it in this season in the ski episode when she's like, you bought all the ski gear. He's like, fashion. Like, that's why because I look great. Fitlord, Donald Glover, did you have a favorite, like, of all the like short shorts or like jackets or all the things that he's wearing in this season?

His love of the 70s, like, bleeding through even into like the taste and film. Did you have a favorite look? Yes, because as a newly single man in L.A., I was just like, dog, he's getting these fucking fits off. Let me see if I like, damn, what were some of them? You know, I really did think, like, he had a lot of tasteful, like, leather jackets or, like, layer, like, the way that they were, like, layering. Like, here's the thing. Also, like, talking about kind of how I had to surrender myself to the show where I was, like,

in the first episode, I'm like, yo, Glover, you got a fucking chill. You ain't Brad Pitt. put on a fucking shirt, bro. But as the, like, as the show keeps going on and as he keeps getting fits off, like, he's like, oh, this is Gucci. Like, make you just check this. I was like, yes, I would say the same thing, Donald Glover. And it was like, to your point, even when they're at the ski lodge, even when he looks like a dork in the ski shit, I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I could pull off that fit right now.

100%. They do a good job where I was like, this is a different version. of sexiness than Brad Pitt, where it's like, when you actually go back and watch that movie, you're like, Brad Pitt is, like, they're doing a thing where it's almost like, oh, he's like the charming boy next door, but he has the fucking, like, they cut his hair low, so there's a little bit of danger. And in this, they're like, Donald Glover, my man, like, you are fashion. Like, look at this fashionista, which I thought was like, I thought that was a very smart thing

to do. So next time I see you, I expect you to be in, like, a tight, It was like the ultimate 70s look were like the slightly high-wasted flooded jeans, the tight tank top, and then a really good leather jacket over that. Like that's that's that's the vibe, Charles, and I hope you, I hope next Zoom, I need to see you wearing that, please. Joe, yeah. Really quick. You know, I love getting off the, like off the tracks, okay? Yeah.

My family is very anti-L.A. Charles. You know what I'm saying? I reveal to them. You know, I got some chains. I got a pinky ring. And they're just like, what's wrong with you? Guys, you're not wearing any of your of that. None of your hardware is on in the Zoom call.

So I... Oh, no, no, no. You're seeing Clark Kent when I am out in the wild, okay? Like, people were petting my new cardigan. They're like, it's so soft. I'm like, I know, shoddy. Like, yeah, Ted, give me more comments. Well, I went to actually, I'm glad you brought up

because I was like, how personal are we going to get on this? on this podcast. Since you are newly single L.A. Charles. Yes. Like how much you think that informed you watching this show about like, can love exists, do relationships exist, all that sort of stuff like that,

you being sort of like freshly out of something. Do you want to talk about how that informed your watch or are you like too personal, Joanna? Oh, no, it's not too personal. On a Monday morning. It's fine. Yeah, it's, I think it made me actually like like the series a lot more.

Yeah. Because I think if, I think it is very funny. If you make this show where it's like, when I was seeing High High, I'm just like, is this a show about Donald Glover working for Amazon? Because it's just like they keep going back to that. Donald Glover is just like, we could just deliver packages. We could go down one level. And that would be a perfect life.

Oh my God. That didn't even occur to me. That's absolutely amazing. Sorry. And then you have Maya who was just like, no, let's like go up one level. And it's funny that going up one level is killing the other Smith. Because I'm just like even metaphorically to me that works to like to get more money, to get more prestige.

Who are the people that you have to kill? What's those versions of yourself? What are the versions of Mr. and Mrs. Smith that you have to kill? And as someone who is like newly single, I can tell y'all it's like breaking up when you're 30 is different because like you're finally at a point where you're like, if you spend enough time with a person, you're like, oh no, I actually like love this person. and we're like friends.

And if we keep going, we're going to like ruin the friendship. Oh, yeah. And it's like the things that you're breaking up over aren't even, they're not like the teenage early 20s things where it's just like, I can't believe you. It's more like, wait, what do you want from life? Where do you want to live?

Like, do you want to get married? Do you want to have kids? How much money are you trying to make? Or like, are you choosing your dreams right now? Are you being selfish? Can your dreams succeed within the context? of this business. And that's what this show is about.

I think the funniest thing that, like, Donald Glover said. And I think it was in a Hollywood reporter is that he basically has been very, very clear that, like, in the beginning of his career, especially, he's like, I don't know what I get out of marriage. I don't believe in it as a concept.

And he said something that was like, how can you say this in the Hollywood reporter where he's like, yeah, I know what my wife was getting out of the marriage, what was I getting out of it? And I was like, that is such a, almost like, you're not supposed to say that. But then he ends it where it was like my wife was like, I want to be more traditional.

I believe in marriage. Like this is something that I want. And he's just like, I have to wake up and be like, I love this person. I want to help her be who she wants. If she wants this life, like, of course, like, why he was basically like, why am I being a jackass? And I was like, that's not something you're supposed to say in like polite society. But that is like a real thing that you tell your like therapist or the marriage counselor. about what it means not only to,

if we're getting real, to be famous and marrying someone less famous, to be famous in black, and Donald Glover is marrying a white woman. And like all the discourse about that. And a lot of this series has those, like that interracial tension to it. And I think like circling back,

that's actually what makes this show worth it to me. Because it's like most artists would take the cowardly way out where they're just like, I'm going to show you all of the great things about marriage. And Donald Glover is like, I'm kind of an asshole. And my views about marriage kind of make me look like an asshole. I'm putting it all in the show. And I was like, yeah, do it.

Like, do that, man. But that's so funny because, like, his John was like, I mean, I guess he puts it in the writing. But then his John is, like, the more emotionally intelligent, the more, like, you know, loving, the more wanting to, like, let's have kids. Let's do, let's level down. Let's go down to his, like, delivering packages. have kids together, invest in this relationship. You know, they're like,

they're switching the gender norms on that front. And then she's like the colder career-driven, you know, person. So I thought Donald, I actually thought that Donald's character arc tracks more with Jane than it does with his John. I think, like, actually, like, the reason I think we don't, like, it's hard to like Maya as much as Jane is because, being like a Donald Glover fan for a while, the things that like as I've grown that I've like, like liked, but also distances, I'm just like, oh, to get to that level of fame, there is almost

this kind of like sociopathic bent that you have to have, this belief in yourself, this belief to be like, not only is my way the best way, but like I need everybody else to trust me. And if that ruins relationships along the way, it doesn't matter, the work is important. I think they're both Donald Glover, like, in this relationship. And that's probably why Jane... There's no room for Phoebe, honestly. Yeah, God, you just said it in interviews. Yeah.

It's like, my way is the correct way. I was like, you can't work. Like, how does Phoebe work with that? Like, that's two geniuses. You can't... Yeah, and it might be Phoebe feels the same way because, like, you know, she comes up from, like, making one woman shows and turning that into, like,

her direct vision. And, like, to your point, the reason we associate Donald Glover, Phoebe Weller Bridge, Ozzy Sonsori before he was sort of like, you know, cast out Michaela Cole, Louis CK, etc., etc. These like writer,

creator, you know, showrunner, writer, star that they're this like triple threat. And come Emmy Night, we were just sort of like throwing every bit of hardware at them because we're just sort of like, you can do it all. And, you know, like Bill Hader. Like, plus what you're doing is not just comedy,

but also drama. Like, it's deeply unfair that you can do all this stuff. It falls into our need to like, love autos and feel like every piece of art is just one person in their room. Exactly. And so when you put those two auateurs together, I can definitely see why Donald's like, yeah, it's going to be my way. And Phoebe's like, it's going to be my way,

actually. And I would just like love if they could, I think if they could have figured out how to, you know, she writes Jane and he writes John or vice versa. She writes John and he writes Jane. Similar to like the way that I think Noah Baumbach and Greta Gerwig worked on Barbie in that way. way, like, you know, writing Ken and Barbie and switching off and all the sources like that, like, I think that there's just like something really, it pushes the art that much further. Because one thing for Donald Glover to write, John and Jane is like two sides of himself,

that's your interpretation. Like, here's this side of me and here's that side of me and how do I reconcile them and how do I marry those two parts of me? But how much more interesting to like have the clash and the attraction and the whatever of like two different, completely different, kind of. of comedic geniuses because I think I think both Phoebe and Donald are you know absolute geniuses. The other thing about Donald Glover, I'm curious because you spend more time like, you know, because you have like done prestige TV episodes of Atlanta, so you've studied it closer than I have.

Donald Glover is so like on the one hand, often inscrutable to me. Like they're like I don't know what's performance and I don't know what's really him sometimes. You know what I mean? And I think that's very intentional. And then to your point, sometimes he's like two on it. for a Hollywood reporter interview. So, like, I don't know. I was just thinking about that in terms of, like,

writing a story about, like, what it means to, to peel back the layers of yourself all the way down to the truth serum and, like, tell someone what you really, really, really, really, really think about something. Like, how much do you think of Donald Glover as, like, a really, really forthright, open person? And how much is there, like, this cultivated mystery?

Again, it feels like post-community, this, like, cultivative. mystery or am I misinterpreting him as an artist? I think if I'm not to put like tin foil hat like Charles getting too deep with it. Yeah. I think the thing that actually like interests me about Donald Glover is that to me is a very like black millennial.

I came of age during kind of like the social media boom, the Twitter and Tumblr of it all where basically like Donald Glover has always been kind of like flowing with and against the current of black culture because he comes in on a show like 30 Rock, because he's on community, those are shows that are very like, were white-coded, even though they add a lot of black fans. So when he like makes that pivot with something to Atlanta, it is like, not only am I making something that is more representative of me, I'm making something that's more representative of the things that like I am ingesting, which is like the Atlanta music scene, black Twitter, this type of humor

that we really had not seen on that level before on FX. And I think like what happens is, is that Mr. and Mrs. Smith is also a show that's interpreted like, is Donald Glover a sellout? Where it's like they have that whole conversation with the other Smiths. When they can't, they're like, that is like when the white guy doesn't know that he's listening to a clip song, it's like, I was like, that's a very black man. The reward that you get from making a show like Atlanta is that Dave comes out after it.

And now you're constantly not only being asked about Dave, but now, like, something that, like, you created something that was singular. And now, like, if we're just talking about what is, like, I think Dave honestly has more viewers and became, I think, FX's biggest comedy. If I'm not, I think it did. I believe you. I think that that's the thing that he's always trying to interrogate, where he's like, I want to be Lando.

I want to be in Star Wars movies. But I still want to be, like, the Black Creek. that's like, I'm one of y'all. I have an alt account on Twitter. Like, I have the same jokes as you. Like, I'm still real. It's because he's a rapper. It's the rapper fucking conversation.

It's like, Jay Z is the man now. He's a billionaire. And he's still, like, rapping, like, guys, when I was selling drugs, I was one of y'all and I'm still one of y'all. And I'm like, Jay, you're not. Trust me. And that's why I think, like, it's hard sometimes to be like, how, like, what is the real Donald

lover? What is the mystique? That's what I'm saying. It's because, like, I don't think he knows because we don't know. Because me, as someone who has sold out, who is pro selling out, would I, like, go home? Okay. Wait, what?

I didn't know that you thought of yourself as a sellout, Charles. That's another conversation. Joe, James? Here's the thing. My whole thing is we've forgotten how to sell out. Like, it's just like Greta, Greta sold out. Guess what? She did the right.

thing. She's now Christopher Nolan. She's like on that level. She set out to do like go get your money. Like hell yeah. Like that's what we're supposed to do in our, I don't, oh, not most people, but if you want to be paid. Well, but I think I think what's interesting about, sorry, this is like very off track of where we started, but I think it's what's fascinating about you, Charles, is like you're on this big podcast network. You're talking about major pieces of the biggest pieces of IP and media and you're always yourself. And so I never think of you as a sellout is what I really like and admire about you, is that you're just like, you're honest about your opinions about things. And you're speaking. No, no, no. I am 75% honest. And that's what, that's what me and Donald Glover. That's what I

think like Greta and me have in common. Noah, Bob, all these people where it's like, you, you've been in the industry. There is what like people tell you when the mic is on. And there's what people tell you over drinks. There is just like, there is the honesty. of marriage that you have one whiskey in where you're like, I know what I get out of this marriage or like I know what you get, what am I getting? Like that's such a like, don't say that. But that is like when you're alone with your best friend, the fuck, like that is what made Atlanta funny.

That's what makes Mr. and Mrs. Smith funny is like Donald Glover, Francis Scloan, all that entire team is like, we're going to say the most fucked up shit. And it's going to be hilarious. Like the whole, I'll put it to you this way. I don't know if Phoebe would have been able to do the rooftop joke where Donald Glover is like communing with all of the, all of these like black targets that need to be killed. And he starts making fun of Maya. And Maya has to like, it's such a difficult role because like she's half Japanese. She's half white.

Donald Glover is making fun of like her character. And it's like it's just this kind of just this racially not. Joddy joke. And that joke, I don't know if it works if it's a white woman on the other end, but because it's a Japanese

woman and then Sarah Paulson's like, hey, like, you gotta listen to John. I think it's like better or more complicated that she's mixed race and like he, you know, he will call out her whiteness

and then later she's like, I thought you only thought of me as white or like all that sort of stuff. I think that's like a juicier mix. But I think there's a version of that that exists where it's him making fun of like his white partner and especially inside the episode where like Sarah Paulson's like extreme whiteness is the major butt of the joke of that episode like that's the punchline is like how

aggressively horrifyingly white Sarah Paulson's character is. And also having a black and Japanese like having a black man and Japanese woman have to interrogate their interracial relationship with Sarah Paulson is just like, I was like, okay, is this like two episodes two on? Yes. But I'm like, dog, like this is the funny, like how are they doing this?

I wouldn't lose that episode at all. I think, uh, I would lose the Ron Perlman episode. You're wrong, Joe. I know. I'm right. Here's the thing. The Holocaust joke made me cringe,

but I'm like, they got Ron Perlman to say this fucking crazy, whack-ass Holocaust joke. What are we doing? You know, the moment that touched, touched, like, the kind of darkness

that you would expect from a Phoebe Weller Bridge sort of washed on this is in the, in the ski vacation episode, when Billy Campbell's character is, like, go ahead, kill my wife.

That's what we decided. And then it's just, like, what bonds them closer to, like, when she comes back, it's like what reignites the spark between them is that he was, like, kill her.

That was when the show clicked for me. Yeah. Like, it was around that time where I was like, this is so funny because it's also, then I started a thing, I'm like, man, if I was married to Jeff Bezos, I probably would be like, you know what? It's like, did you think Jeff Bezos watched that?

It was just like, man. Do you think Jimon was like, oh? So, wrapping up, I think what I want to know from you is second season, because they have basically, I think Francesca Solona said, hey, you know, if it's successful enough and people like it enough,

there's always room for a second season. I want to know if you wanted a second season. Just because I like an open ending so, I like that ending so much, I don't want to know whether or not they made it. I want that always to be like something that I'm thinking about. Like I think when I'm in my like most hopeful, romantic, whatever state of mind,

I'm like those crazy kids made it. They got to the doctor across the street that was sort of into that at the beginning earlier in the episode. You know, they stopped the bleeding. Like, they made it. But I wouldn't mind a season two with like a different Jane and John. Like, I thought, I think that could be interesting. Like, get two other great actors to play Jane and John in a different Jane and John in another season.

Do you know what I mean? Like something like that. Like, I think the premise could sustain, you know? That's what I'm. I was thinking because I was like, I actually like, because I like open ended like just very ambiguous ending so much. And I feel like in our current landscape, like we just can't have ambiguous endings. It is just like it drives us up the wall. And I was like, it is so, if we're talking about the punk rock thing that that keeps coming on is to be like, no,

that was it. Maybe we'll give you a second one and we will cast, I don't know, like two completely different actors and we're going to do another round of this. But I also think, like, I'm at the point where I got so excited that Ryan Cougler and Michael B. Jordan are doing, like, an original vampire story. Like, I want more, like, I'm just like, okay, if we're kind of, like, figuring out this new landscape, I want Donald Glover to do his version of that. I want, like, Greta Gertwig to be like, I have this genre film that was never going to get me now. But I can make it. But I can make it now. and I like now I like it's the brinks truck this is actually the thing that it's like oh after dark night

Nolan makes inception I'm just like what are like what's the Ryan Cougler Greta that like the Donald Glover now I have it I can run with it and I think if this is Donald Glover being like oh I can make IP dope I'm like oh you can do it I don't I don't really need to see it again I want to see him do more original stuff yeah yeah so I think I I would say either to your point send Donald, like, how Donald Glover do whatever he wants, why don't you bring in a different, like a different comedic genius to do season to Mr.

Mrs. Like, let Phoebe do her season, you know what I mean? Or like let another great showrunner, let Michaela Cole do her season. Like, oh, her character, you know? Is this like a Bargo thing where it's just like, instead of thinking of it, it's like, oh, like this one, you're just like, no,

we're going to bring in this person to do their season of marriage. And it's just like, You switch it up? Yeah. Wait, then, all right, I'll ask you. Last question. Who's your John?

Who's your Jane? Well, I was going to say, Phoebe, but like, we've talked to, I think, I think I want Michaela Cole back. And now that he's no longer doing a Marvel movie, I want Stephen Yin to be here, John. I mean, maybe you could say that beef. He's already done it with beef. But, like, I think the Mr. Mrs. Smith with Michaela Cole and Stephen Young. Oh, you want to know what I want?

I don't know who the actors would be. I would love a May December type, Mr. Mrs. Smith, like an age gap type thing where it's just like, oh, like dealing with that a little bit. I don't know who you would get, but I would like the like, oh, we're dealing with like, we're actually super madly in love. But maybe it's like a John who is like a John or Jane

on their last leg, a legend in the game, having to kind of train up this new, this newish spouse. I like it. It's hard to tell because Parker Posey has had such good work done. But like when she and Wagner Mora showed up as the couple, I was like, I was like, she's definitely old. She's like 12 years older than him. And I was like, that's cool.

I was like, that's nice. I mean, to your point, I could not tell. That's not May December. That's like May July, but like still like it's something. But or, or last last one, last one, is this the Daniel Radcliffe, Crinda Brunson project that they should do off the back of his proposal on the red carpet? Absa fucking, really. Great. Or, we're still in the rom-com, didn't it?

Who was the one who said they wanted to do a rom-com with Iyo? Oh, I don't know. But I don't can do anything. What's his face? he's my, the boy I have the number one stock in afterson. He was in after son. I'm playing on his name. Oh, Paul Meskell?

Paul Meskell. Paul Meskill says he wanted to do a rom-com with Iowa. Okay. I think so. Like, I, we do a rom-com, a Quinta, a Quentin Radcliffe like rom-com. Mm-hmm. Mr. and Mrs. Mm-hmm.

We're cooking. Yo. Fact. Well, this is on it. Not a, Jeff Bezos. Jeff Bacos. Call us. Oh, God.

Call Charles to run your show, season two. I support. Hey, if Donald Glover's always on the version of almost getting canceled, I would make it one day. And they're like, yo, get him out of you. Guys, this is Brayne, your prestige TV on Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Joe, thank you so much for going on this journey with me. Thanks for having me. Ambiguously.

Maybe alive, maybe a little bit dead inside. Yeah. He fucking knows. But you want to know who is still kicking our own Mr. High High, High, our producer, extraordinaire. Sasha Shaw, thank you so much. And with that, we'll see y'all. Very soon.