The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘My So-Called Life’ and Its Impact on Pop Culture 30 Years Later

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Joanna Robinson is joined by author and podcaster Kristin Russo to revisit the cult classic ‘My So-Called Life’ and celebrate the 30th anniversary of its premiere. They discuss why the 1994 teen drama still means so much to them all these years later, its impact on the television landscape during its initial run, and how it inspired (and was inspired by) fashion trends of the era (1:43). Along the way, they talk through how the ABC show broke ground with some of its character archetypes and casted future pop culture stars (19:26). Later, they unpack its influence on today’s array of teen shows (44:16). Hosts: Joanna Robinson Guest: Kristin Russo Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join me, Craig Horlebeck, along with Danny High... F***! It'd be really funny if we just left that in. That would actually be pretty on brand. F***! Join me, Craig Horlebeck, Danny Highfitz. Nice. And Danny Kelly on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show

for all things, fantasy, NFL, and more. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce. and some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack.

That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save. at Whole Foods Market. It's time to refresh your yard during spring backyard days at the Home Depot. Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills

starting at $179, like the next grill three burner gas grill, or get $50 off a select Weber Spirit grill and bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together. Shop spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot.

Now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies to home depot.com slash price match for details. Oh, hey girlfriend. Hey, Angela. Ask Angela, she was there. Angela, tell her. We hung out and these guys, they tried to pick them up.

It was totally wicked, am I right? And the cops came. I'm telling you, we had a time. Didn't we? Didn't we have a time? We did. We had a time. Well, welcome back to the Preciseach TV podcast.

Me and I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today. She's decked out in flannel. I left the team down. I am not. it is my friend who I like to talk about 90s television with, it is Kristen. So, hey, Kristen, how are you doing? I'm good, except for the fact that I've learned via this podcast recording that you do not own a flannel.

And as a child of the 90s and also of the Bay Area, I gasp. I mean, maybe if I lived in Seattle, you'd have a point. But I don't know, we're like, we're all about like. Did tie-dye? Well, I did have a lot of tie-dye, but we're all about, like, fleeces. It's tech fleece country here in the Bay Area. Listen, we're here today to talk about my so-called life. And if you have never seen that show, we'll sort of take you on a little tour of it briefly.

But we're going to talk spoilers. So, you know, if you're like, I've never seen it, I don't want to know a single thing. This is maybe not the show for you. But if you've never seen it and you're curious, we're going to talk about it. If you've seen it and you would like to celebrate it along with us, this is all we're going to be doing here today. We're not picking a single episode because there's only 19. episodes of this television that exist. So we're just celebrating the whole thing. And why are we doing this on August 24? Because it has been 30 years, 3-0 years since my so-called life premiered August 25th,

1994. Kristen, just take a pause. Take a moment. How does that make you feel as a person? It's hard, Joanna. It's difficult. It's slightly painful. actually talking with you about this show, I think was what unearthed the cruelest thing you've ever said to me, which was that, not to me personally, but just the cruelest piece of aged, like my aging information, which was the way that we once looked at like the 60s, when we were in high school,

is how high school kids are now looking upon the 90s, which has, I have never, like, I froze in that moment and part of me is still frozen and it'll be frozen forever. All right. That's definitely the last time we'll talk about how old we feel talking about this. Anyway, my so-called life. An incredible teenage slash family drama that aired from August 1994 to January 1995, only 19 episodes canceled after his first season.

There are conflicting accounts on as to why it was canceled. And we can talk about that a little bit if you want to. the end. This was created by Winnie Holtsman, produced by Ed Zwick and Marshall Horskowitz, and it tells the story. The basic premise is this. Angela Chase, she's a high schooler. She lives a very ordinary life with her lovely ordinary parents and her ordinary little sister in an ordinary suburb until one day a new friend enters her sphere and sort of shakes everything up in her life. And she goes from sort of being quiet and ordinary and good girl and like studying and all that sort of stuff to, oh my God, dyeing her hair bright red and staying out and perhaps having a sip of alcohol

and, you know, going to see shows and stuff like that. And so the story is just that. Her life in high school, what it's like to leave a social circle behind and join a new one, what it's like to fall in love with an extremely dumb but very pretty guy. And all that ensues from there. And it was groundbreaking at the time and underappreciated because it got canceled for one season. And then it just continues to influence the TV landscape ever after for the last 30 years. It's had its little claws and everything. So Kristen, before we get into start some of the specifics of that influence, I'm just curious, like your relationship to my so-called life. This is my show.

Like, this is my teenage show. Some people have, you know, I think Joanna, yours is Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. Yeah. Mine was my so-called life. I am of the same age as Angela, right? I started high school in 1994 when the show aired. And I don't understand really how we interacted with television back then. Like, how did I find this show?

Did I see it in the TV guide? I don't remember. But I came to it. It came to me. And it truly, like, I became obsessed with it. it was canceled, I literally walked around my high school with a clipboard and a petition, having people sign the petition to get it back on television. I didn't really understand, as you could tell, how television works at the time. But it just resonated with me so deeply.

And I, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about the Angela Rayan dynamic of it all. But I was deeply an Angela, and I wanted desperately to be Rayan, very similarly to how Angela wants to be Rayanne in the show. And I got a blonde streak in my hair to be just like Ray Ann. You can see me right now, Joanna. I still have it. I know, I know. 30 years later, it impacted me deeply. And we're going to talk about all the reasons why, but it really is my show. Kristen came to me several years ago saying, this is my show. Kristen, by the way, I neglected to say so in the instruction, is an incredible podcaster in her own right. If you haven't listened to her podcast about. Buffy the Vampire Slayer on the Buffering podcast or The X-Files, which she and her podcasting partner,

Jenny, are currently covering. I really, really encourage. There's no one better to unearth sort of like 90s TV nostalgia than Kristen Russo. But Kristen came to me a couple years ago. When was it? I don't know. Oh, well, it was just before the 20, it was probably a little over five years ago because this was the 25th anniversary.

25th anniversary. Never not celebrating my self-life. We love an anniversary. And was like, wow, that was a long time ago. I was like, should we do my so-called life podcast? So we did, by the way, that exists, called the boiler room. We covered every single, there's only 19 of them, episodes of my so-called life, had a great time.

We did some interviews, had a really good time. You're bringing it back for the 30th anniversary. You're giving it a little refresh. What are you doing with the boiler room? So the boiler room exists right now as you're listening to this, and it's us covering every episode. And we did it spoiler-free. So if you're watching it for the first time, you can listen along. But yeah, for the 30th anniversary, we're putting it into the sort of umbrella, the main buffering or re-watch adventure feed. Jenny, who, as you mentioned, is my podcasting partner, is also going to be re-watching the episodes.

We're going to re-watch each episode with our patrons. for marking the 30th anniversary. So August 25th, we'll watch the pilot. The following week, we'll watch the second episode and so on and so forth. And Jenny and I'll do a little intros as well. So Jenny can maybe say a thing or two about some of the things that we got up to. We definitely ranked Best Use of Flannel. That was our ongoing segment there.

Yeah, my favorite bit was we did Best Use of Flanel in every episode. Jenny wrote us a little jingle for that, wonderful. What we found, a troubling thing we unearthed once we started is that there was like no upper limit on how much flannel slash plaid there is in this show. Everyone's wearing one as like a button down or a skirt or this, that or the other thing. And then it would like show up on like sofa upholstery and bed spreads and like just everywhere you look, it's Waldofell flannel on this show. Because it is the 90s in a show. At first I think we were going to try to count the flannel. And like episode one, we were like, yeah, no, that's actually impossible.

So best to use that. Okay. So that's the boiler room. That's a podcast that exists. Today we're just going to take like a large lens look at the whole phenomenon. And starting with sort of like this idea of its impact then, a 1990, smack dab mid-90s. And so what I think is important context is a show that has kind of actually completely completely disappeared from the cultural conversation, which is an adult drama called 30-somethings, which was very popular. I never watched it because I'm too fresh-faced and young. I'm just a baby. I didn't watch 30-somethings. But it was like constantly on reruns. I was like aware of it. And it was this huge show. And its creators Ed and Marshall were like, what if we did this show about a

Winnie Holtzman to run that show. And the idea was, what if we treat teenagers, specifically teenage girls with the same, their problems, their everything, with the same sort of seriousness and humor that we do these 30-somethings? What if we allow these kids' problems to feel as important?

And that was somewhat revolutionary. It's not that my so-called life, Premier 94, was the first. teen drama on television, absolutely not. Beverly Hills Now 210 dominated the 90s. But what Beverly Hills 9-0-210 did was, first of all, cast 30-somethings as their teenagers. Like older actors were playing these teenagers.

They were acting like adults, for the most part. And they lived in Beverly Hills. It was this very, like, aspirational, you know, Beverly Hills, 9-2-0, saved by the bell, California cool sort of thinking. that they were selling, which was not what my so-called life is doing? My so-called life is like, what if suburbia? What if ordinary? What if extremely ordinary? In episode centers around Angela getting a Zit, for example. Like, can you think what are some other, like, this is a show

about ordinary teens, like moments can you think of in the show? I mean, I think that some, like, even the bigger arcs of the way that her relationship with Jordan unfurls, her childhood friendship changing shape with Brian Crackow. Like those are not as like, you know, a specific as like her getting a Zit. But I mean, just even thinking about the episode where she goes to the party that Jordan is going to and she falls in the mud

and she walks in the door and who is on the couch. But of course, Jordan Catalano, like it just... And so much of what you're saying is just reading to me as like it respected teenage girls in a way that I think is why as a teenage girl Like, I didn't know that. I didn't know how to name that. But that's why this show was, like, revolutionary to me is because through that,

I felt the respect. Like, I felt that my feelings were being taken seriously in a way that I had never really seen before, including in, like, my own house with my own parents, right? The 90s were a time when, like, for sure, teenagers' feelings were not taken perhaps as seriously as they are maybe today, question mark. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Well, we'll talk about, like, it's later legacy. an impact, but I think that, like, when it kicked off at 94 and then going forward, because, like,

that aspirational teen drama idea comes back with a vengeance with the O.C. Like, basically what Josh Schwartz did with the O.C. with Gossip Girl, which is, like, dominating from, like, 2003 to 2012. Like, that's all, again, that aspirational money, be it New York or California sort of thing. So for this sweet spot from, like, 94 to, like, you know, a little bit earlier in the odds, there was this sort of like boom of, you know, let's treat teens, like teens, like real teens, era of television that really exploded on the WB, like, of all places. And like my so-called life ends in 95.

The Seventh Heaven is like 96. That's the WB's sort of like first teen-ish. That's a family show, but like teen-ish sort of show. You know that you're our age, if you just heard. Seven heaven. In your head. I was looking up, I was like, what's the timeline on the WB shows? And I looked it up.

And the Wikipedia page is like, Seventh Heaven and Savannah. Do you remember Savannah? The title sounds familiar, but not really. Good. I'm glad it's not taking up space in your brain. It was like a trashy, it wanted to be like Melrose Place, but make it like Georgia, basically. Okay, okay. Buff of Vampire Slaher, 1997.

Joss Whedon has been very clear about how much of an... influence my so-called life was on Buffy Vampire Slayer. Following the success of those shows, we get Dawson's Creek and Felicity. Felicity, currently the subject of a great Ringer podcast, by the way, great rewatch Felicity podcast happening on the ringer.com. Felicity had this, like with its voiceover, sensitive female lead. It was such a my so-called life clone. Angela Chase goes to college is what Felicity is 100%. And like, the idea that my so-called life had this voiceover from Angela, or in one case, Danielle, her younger sister. But, like, the fact that we are inside Angela's head for these episodes was, again, a revolutionary thing that they didn't really do on television that many, many other shows would copy.

Do you, like, what DNA do you see between, like, the WB and my so-called life? I mean, I think my so-called life for me remains the truest in, like, that monologue. And listen, I love Felicity. I watched Dawson's Creek. And obviously, you know how I feel about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The dialogue, and maybe we'll talk about this later, but like the fact that Winnie Holtsman sat with the teens, the actual teens in the show and pulled their, the way that they spoke and the things that they cared about in still resonates with me. but the realness is still there in Buffy and Dawson's and Felicity, right? Like the way that they interact with each other has a similar, it takes itself seriously, right?

It's not like, oh, these teens or early 20s kids are over-dramatizing their feelings about things that don't matter to you when you're adults. They are centered in that space of what you're going through. And for that reason is probably why I like all of those shows. I'm curious what you think about this like fashion angle because like I know we talked about this a bit from when we talked about the show week to week. But like I with some with five years distance since the last time we did this, like can't remember exactly how much you think we think like the grunge movement in Seattle obviously is like where the origin of the flannel and all like comes with it. But like how much did Angela's distinctive style or Raya's distinctive style like go on to influence like stuff? like style coming out of my so-called life. I mean, I guess, like, I don't even know how to measure that,

but I know that for me, as a kid living in the 90s, I was watching what they were wearing. And it seemed like Delia's really wanted me to be able to do that, too, you know. Delia, a character in the show, but also a very important catalog. Delia's with the asterisk as the apostrophe specifically. Delia is a catalog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, like, I don't have an awareness of, like, like what was the chicken and what was the egg in that equation. But it seems like it was a massive influence or at least fed into the giant push towards these things. And, you know, we talked about flannel, but even like the, the like baby doll dresses with the little t-shirts underneath,

right? Those were all things that, like, I know that I saw on my so-called life. The baby, the little baby barrettes that Rayanne wore. Those were everywhere, including in, of course, my hair with my blonde streak. And we talked about this a bit on the boiler room, Joanna, but I know that my so-called life was a rarity, too, with wardrobe in that Winnie Holtsman or whoever was in charge of the costuming or both of them had a limited amount of wardrobe for them, right? I love this. Yeah. Which I would have never known that as, especially like as a teen watching it, but I'm sure that also, like that same flannel that she's wearing, she's wearing, she's wearing again, just. Like I am.

I'm going to wear the same flannel twice in a week at minimum. They not only repeat outfits all the time on that show, which they do, but they mix and match elements. You know, like a skirt we've seen Angela wear like three different times. She'll be wearing with a different like sweater this time or whatever. And it's just sort of like, yeah, she had a closet that they shopped her outfits out of. And, you know, and Jordan Catalano had a coat and that's it. One leather shoe lace tied around his neck.

One coat and probably one pair of jeans. And then on the like music politics front, I mean, politics I'm saying only because you mentioned the petition. I also signed a petition. I was in middle school. I was, I think I was like an eighth grade. I'm just like one year behind you. But like I definitely signed a petition to try to get my soul called. And the first petition I ever signed in my life was to try to keep my soul called life on the air.

Before marriage equality, there was keep my soul called life on the air. Equally important. And I think we all agree. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and then it was on TV and reruns for forever, for years. And we all just obsessively watched 19 episodes of a television show over and over and over again, you know. Wow times. Where did all those petitions go?

Are they somewhere in the studio? Did they ever make it to me? I actually believe that if this had happened, if the cancellation of my social life had happened in the Internet era, it wouldn't have been canceled. I agree 100%. I genuinely believe that. We hadn't yet harmed. our power. Our voice. Our voice was not yet as powerful. My eighth grade voice. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zepbound is a

prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles.

Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar.

Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. Expedia. Hey, you. What's you doing? Scrolling? Doom scrolling?

Looking at other people's vacations? Miami, San Diego, Cancun? Okay, what about you? What places will you go? Expedia is the one place you go to go places. Your trip can earn rewards, which you can use towards your next eligible stay. Soon, people will be doomed. scrolling you. You'll be that friend's friend, but with rewards. What are you

waiting for? Expedia. The one place you go to go places. Terms apply. Good sleep is everything. That's why Ali's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-Dienine for both kiddos and grown-ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. You're racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLLL-L-Y. We want to do a little, like, mini tour through the characters and the casting, just because, like, obviously the show produced at least two, I would argue, more three, at least, incredible iconic performers who would go on to have, like, a huge impact on the culture. But then also these character archetypes, I think, is, like, worth looking at the ways in which this show both established archetypes and then, like, broke sort of previous archetypes. Let's start with Angela Chase.

Angela Chase is our main character played by Claire Daines, who was 15 years old, a baby. Oh. When she, I mean, older than me, I was a real baby. I was an eighth grade. But like 15 years old. 13? Yeah. A tiny infant.

But like 15 years old when she auditioned for this show, a tiny, tiny little baby girl who had never done anything. She beat out Alicia Silverstone. who would have been a very different, like a very, like, I think more 90210, 2-10, saved by the bell-esque vibe. I mean, I think it still would not have been like a California set show, though it's hard to imagine taking Alicia Silverstone out of California. Yeah, it's funny. It's like you imagine Alicia Silverstone.

Like, what if this changed Alicia Silverstone? You know what I mean? Like, I've always thought about it the same way you have. Like, if Alicia Silverstone came into the universe, then it would have been a different angel. It definitely would have been. But I wonder if under the direction of Winnie Holtzman and this crew, if it would have also brought out some different things in Alicia. You're saying Alicia would have gotten Homeland instead of Claire Daines.

Yeah, Claire Daines would have been in Clueless. It would have been a totally different universe. What? This is the origin story of Claire Dane's weaponizing her tears, her cryface for all of us to enjoy. If you think you've seen it in Homeland or any of the other, Romeo and Juliet, et cetera, et cetera, anything else that she's done, broke down Palace, et cetera. You haven't really seen it, I think, until you've seen it as Angela Chase. What does the impact of Claire Dane's and her tears have on you? You're clutching your face right now.

Are you going to cry? I'm thinking about her chin. I'm just only thinking about her chin. The way that Claire Dane's chin quivers is. a national treasure. I'm sure that, I mean, again, remember how small we were watching this show. Like, I'm sure that some of the ways

in which I cried, at least in the 90s, were modeled after Angela Chase's cry. The way her face, there's actually a scene between her and Rayanne, where Rayan describes it in detail exactly what happens to her face as it collapses and grumbles and she cries. But, yeah, I mean, it'll make you cry.

It really is. If you want, just like in Buffy, we had Willow. We have Angela here with the way she cries. It evokes emotion. And it seems odd. Like, you know, Claire Dane's became an absolute superstar and, like, you know, has lingered in the culture, staying booked and busy. It's odd to describe her as ordinary looking since obviously she's quite beautiful. but I think compared to like casting Alicia Silverstone.

There's something about Claire Daines at least at 15 years old where like especially pre the red hair dye when she's just like quite mousy, there's just something you're just want to like wrap her up and she just feels like someone you would know and they never style her to look like anything. You know, like even when she like dyes her hair bright red and starts to like, you know, wear makeup, it looks like makeup that a teenager. would apply on themselves. And, you know, again, I think she's beautiful. But there's this whole, there's that speech she has, I forget which episode is, where she's at the fashion show, where she's talking about beauty and sort of like what it means for her mom, for her younger sister, for her friends, all of that sort of stuff. And it's just sort of like, it just means something else coming from a Claire Dane's type versus anyone else they might have cast in the role. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I agree. No, 100%. And she also, she also has this incredible

ability to sort of straddle that line between kid and, you know, pre-adult. Like, you just see her in moments and she does. She just looks like a little kid. And then in another angle saying a different thing, you can, like, see the person that she's sort of walking toward being. And that seems like such a uniquely Claire Danes at age 16, you know, whenever this is shot, maybe she's 16 by then power, superpower, that she's. specifically had. Yeah, that's such a good point, which brings us to Jordan Catalano.

We are very nearly the same age. We are what they call a Zenial somewhere between Gen X and millennial, or some people are like, you're definitely a millennial. Fine. If you feel that way, that's fine. We, a lot of us in this space choose to own some sort of gap microgeneration, either Zennial or, as was coined, Generation Catalano. a generation named for a character on one season of television, my so-called life. Jordan Catalano, this is your legacy. Jordan Catalano, we do apologize to the larger culture that in order to have Jordan Catalano,

we must endure Jared Leto ever after. We don't necessarily endorse sending pig hearts to your cast members on suicide squad or anything that Jared Leto has done. Jared Leto playing Jordan Catalano is like the medallano. version of the problematic fave. You know, like you. You've just got to take the bad with the good. He leans.

He's got a car that he writes songs about. He wears a lot of plaid. He's got a band. He's illiterate. He's Jordan Catalano. The idea of Jordan Catalan, like what Woody Holman has created in Jordan Catalano,

a character that as we age and we watch the show, you and I, this is our experience at least, were both like, oh my God, what a waste of all of her adoration. And at the same time, I get it. Like, you can't help it. It's not just that he's pretty to look at because, like, he is, but, like, that's a

dime a dozen or whatever in Hollywood. It's like, there's something about his, like, he's just the right level of, like, vulnerable, you know. I don't know how to explain it. And I'm like, I hate it. I hate how much it works. I hate it. He gives you the feeling that.

that if you could just crack him open, there'd be so much there, you know? Like, he, and, you know, if you've heard Joanna and I podcast in nearly any space before, you know that this is like both of our origin stories with problematic faves. I mean, he is that guy. He's the guy that you want so badly to be good and to be, I don't even know what we wanted him to be, but the longing for that thing was the attraction. Like, that's all you needed. You didn't even need the other side of the coin.

Yeah, and it's just not really even about him at all, really. Most of, I mean, later in the season, I think Winnie sort of discovered more and more to do with Jordan and we like, you know, learn about him like not going home some nights or like all the other things that are true in Jordan Catalano's life. But like initially, this is a very like female gaze just looking at him, leaning on his locker, putting eye drops in his eyes and feeling some kind of way about it. Yeah. That's his main function for a lot of the season of television. The teenage version of the Diet Coke break, you know? Yeah.

Or like, you know, Phoebe Kate's getting out of the pool and fast time at Richmond high, you know what I mean? Like, this is a role that is often filled by women that, like, no, we cast Jared Leto with the long eyelashes, and, like, that's what we're doing here. And, like, again, I rewatch the show, and I'm like, I hate Jordan Catalano, but also I don't. I don't. And I, it's really interesting. I mean, Jordan Catalano definitely shaped the people that I would have romantic relationships with for decades. Really?

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Oh, wow. Okay. If you seem mysterious and like I might get more out of you, I am just like putty in your hands. If you tell me all about yourself and you're just an open book, I'm like, bye. I don't, no, I don't. I'm not interested. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. Really shaped me in my life.

Have you floated this theory past Jenny? Does she know this? Yeah. Jenny knows that she is 100% was one of my Jordan Catalanos. Yes. Extraordinary. Okay. She's got the guitar and everything, Joanna, you know?

Yes, very true. We should say one of our shared favorite scenes that happened sort of like early in my so-called life is like Jordan. Because the thing about, one of the best things about Jordan Catalano is he's interested in Angela and he doesn't really like know why. Totally.

That's a, it's a fascinating dynamic. But like, so they're talking and she's talking in the car and he goes in to kiss her and she goes, excuse me, I was talking. It's such a great moment because like I would not have had the wherewithal that she has when like, like her number one crush of all time,

smooches and she's like, excuse me, I was talking. To see that, to see that she had that power and that it still worked for her, I just felt was so resonant at the time, you know, that like she could own herself, even when we knew, like, we saw behind closed doors how much she swooned for Jordan Catalano, but she still had her boundaries.

And that was also something that we did not see on television at that time at all. No. When Dylan and Brennan would love and respect. Oh, of course. and Luke. We love Dylan and Brenda on 9-O-N-Rover. But their toxic love story, which starts a date from hell, and then he just kisses her and she's like, this is fine. That's how that started. Okay. We're going to move on to Ray and Graff. Agent Linger has not had as much of a, like,

impact as an actor afterwards. Though isn't she like a landed gentry, a Duchess? Yeah, a Duchess. Yeah. Duchess or, yeah. She married a Duke and she's a Dutchess. She's having a fine. I think she's having a fine time. H.J. Langer, honestly. But I do apologize to you, Chris and Rousseau. I need to talk about the hero's journey for a second. And I don't think I talked about this when we did the boiler room the first time. Because I think I wasn't quite as like House of R.

Pilled at the time. But like... I googled it just so I'd know what you were going. What is the hero's journey? That was me half an hour ago. The hero's journey, Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, the way we talk about storytelling often. But we don't usually apply it to teenage dramas.

But here's my argument. My argument is this. The classic hero's journey is in something like Star Wars, a film that you have seen, thanks to me. Thanks to you, yes. Or Lord of the Rings, the films you have seen, thanks to me. Also thanks to you. Where our hero starts the journey ensconced in sort of cozy anonymity at home.

They're a moisture farmer. They're just a hobbit in the shire, whatever it is. And then someone, a wizard usually comes and shakes with their life for the quest, it takes them out into the wider world. And that's where the adventure happens. And then there are the story beasts that happen from there. I would argue that Ray and Graham is the wizard who comes to Angela Chase's cozy little shire and shakes up her life with a box of hair and eye.

And it's just like, welcome to the wider world. I love that. We don't have a curfew at 9 p.m. We do what we want. We do all this or something. For dinner. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

That is definitely, that's definitely stopping over at Rand's house is definitely like a stop on the Odyssey. Like, that's definitely like a wild shirt. That's like being with the lotus eaters or like whatever. Anyway, Rayan is an incredible character that means more and more to me, actually, the further I get. Because I think she was a little scary to me when I was in eighth grade. And now I just have like a tremendous amount of affection for her. How did, do you want to talk about how Rayan influenced you beyond the bleach streak in your hair? And what else did she mean to you?

I mean, I think that like Rayan just had an openness and a freeness that I, I mean, admittedly that I was reaching for in my teenage years and that I still reach for, right? Like I'm just inherently a person that's more like structured and rule based and all of those things. and Rianne's way of moving through the world was just fascinating to me and something that I think that I also find very attractive in other friendships that I have with people, you know, the people who take the risks and take the adventure. And also the way that she loves Angela, I mean, you know, we could talk about like the queer-codedness of their relationship, but it doesn't even have to necessarily be in a queer-coded space for it to have had the impact that it had on me,

the way that she was so just like tender to Angela and observed Angela and also idolized Angela. Wanted to be Angela. That's the beauty of, I think, of all things here is like the premise is Angela wants to be more like Rayan and like have adventures and dress in a more like wild way and all the sort of stuff like that. Rayan is longing to be Angela to have the solid home.

home life, to have the dad, to have all the things that Angela has, that Angela takes her granted that Angela resents, like, all this sort of stuff. And so that just creates this endless tension in their affectionate friendship. And it's brilliant. And I'm sure it exists. No, I know it exists. It's Yellow Jackets, right? I was like, is that where I've seen it? I mean, they have to eat each other there, but yeah, sure. To become each other. They do literally consume each other. Yeah, exactly. All right.

Speaking of queer coded, we're not coding the queerness. It's just here. It's Ricky Vasquez, played by Wilson Cruz. Wilson Cruz, I would argue, is sort of like the third, like, the biggest thing to come out of this show. Ricky Vasquez is just, never mind.

Over to you, Christopher. So what do you want to say about Ricky? No, I mean, I think there's so much, I mean, there's so much to say about Ricky. but, you know, Wilson Cruz is the first openly gay actor to play a gay character in a leading role on American television. So, like, automatically, even if I'm sitting in my living room at age, you know, 14, 15 watching this feeling like, wow, this is amazing. I don't have all that detail. But, like, that is why this is groundbreaking is I am a queer teen.

I don't even know that I'm gay yet at this point in my journey. And at this point, and for another decade, you know, you're like pulling at, like, queer coding. You're pulling at the like, maybe Rayan and Angela want to kiss. Like, and you're laying over these stories. The maybes. Yeah. The maybes.

And for Ricky and for Wilson's portrayal of Ricky, you got this tender, loving, but also very powerful gay teenager who was terrified of certain things, but also was really celebratory of a lot of himself. And, you know, there's a scene in one of the episodes where he's talking to Angela about, like, hey, you're really upset that Ray Ann went after Jordan or that Ray Ann and Jordan had a thing, but, like, you're going after the guy that I have a crush on. Why don't you see a difference in those two things? And that's like, when I watch that scene, I'm like, this is 1995 when this aired. Like, that is wild and powerful, and it changed a lot of people's lives to see, to see Ricky. Not only the kids that were watching him and that were moving through their own, you know,

journey of sexuality and identity, but also the parents that watch the show. Like, this is a visible gay kid. Maybe your kid is gay. You have at least one character that you can compare to. You know, that's something. Does your son also wear eyeliner to school, perhaps? Yes. Perhaps.

Ricky means so much to me because, yeah, he is a queer icon. He is like, you know, there's also stories about him, again, not having a home to go to, being like the only main character of color in this show, like all this sort of stuff like that. He's holding all these, like, communities sort of on his shoulders. Take all that away, and there is at the heart of it just like an incredible. incredibly engaging, lovable, wonderful character who isn't just, like, representing. He is also just a fully embodied character. I love him.

What I love about the finale, we're going to talk about the finale a little bit at the end of this little tour we're taking through time and space, but like his coming out is in the finale. And Winnie Holsman wrote the finale knowing that they probably wouldn't get a second season. So his official coming out in saying, I'm gay, like, actually vocalizing it on the show is in the finale. They hired the director who directed the first gay kiss that was on network television on L.A. Law. And so they were like, this is a moment. We're going to do this.

This is perhaps our last episode. So guess what we're going to do? We're going to do this. And forever it will stand on the record. And children write petitions about breaking my back. Children who don't yet know they two are gay will be petitioning to get this show back. And the show didn't, I mean, I think, you know, I'm not an expert of every show that was on in the 90s. But I know that, like, in terms of being a character of color, that was something that was like,

shows in the 90s would have characters of color, but they wouldn't actually address any element of that. And it's not like the show was like having big episodes focusing on Ricky as a person of color. But even in one of the first few episodes, you know, Rayanne, and Angela and Ricky are out, and the cops roll up, and Ray Ann looks right at Ricky and is like, you got to get out of here. And Ricky's like, yeah, I got to get out of here, you know? And like, Angela and Rayan stay behind. There are two white girls. Also, I mean, you know, not necessarily great either, but it is known and established that Ricky as a brown kid needs to get the hell out of there. And that's also a huge deal in 1994, 1995. Or when his teacher is like calling him Enrique

and he's like, no, I'm Ricky. He's like, oh, what a shame. It's such a nice name. You know, like all of that sort of stuff. It's really beautiful. Yeah. Brian Crackow, Devin Gummersel. A real rise in the nice guy moment in television. Like, we don't get Dawson Leary on Dawson's Creek without Brian Crackow. For better or for worse, okay?

You don't get Nolan Felicity without Brian Crackow. This is an interesting archetype because we're just on the verge of something. And there are ways in which this show more. More than Dawson's or some of the other shows really interrogate the other side of the nice guy stuff, right? He's a peeping Tom. Like there's things about Brian Crackle that I am not. It's not like, oh, that's the obvious choice. She should have picked him or Jordan Catalado.

I'm not sure that Brian's the answer. But he is both Brian and Sharon Chersky, played by Devon Odessa, like these two lingering remnants of Angela's previous sort of mouseier existence. And what I love about the show is that the way in which they're like brought along on the adventure into the wider world, right? There's the initial idea of like I'm leaving the Bryans and the Sharon's of the world behind. And then the show's like, no, Brian and Sharon get to come to. And they get to have a fully realized wild and fun teenage existence to eventually, you know. And I think that's a brilliant part of the show as well. Brian, I mean, you know, Brian as the nice guy who actually what's going on with Brian question mark was not something that like my 90s childhood brain could even crack until much later down the line.

You know, like I just was like, yeah, Brian, like he was just nice until I was like in my 30s rewatching Brian. You know, really it took me a lot more to unpack that complexity. Yeah. And I mean, Sharon, the Sharon Ray Ann dynamic is one of my own. of my favorite things on the show. These two girls who love Angela and have very different understandings of her from different times, but, like, have their own bond. I thought was also a really cool piece of the show's writing. Last but not least, we want to talk about the other chases. We're going to talk about Patty and Graham and Danielle. So Patty and Graham Chase, played by Best Armstrong

and Tom Irwin, are a couple things. They are there for legal reasons because Claritants, what clear names was a minor. And so could not be in every scene of the episode. And so there's more parental storylines than there might otherwise be, perhaps, because our leading actress is like, you know, we need to fill out the episode with some legal adults who can work different hours, etc. Patty and, and I talked about this, a lot of the boiler room I know this.

But like, as a kid, you were watching a show, you're like, oh, another scene with Patty and Graham. Who cares? boo, and then you watch it as you get older and you're like, oh no, I relate to Patty and Graham. This is devastating. And it's wonderful. Their story is wonderful, like, maybe for cooler teens than I was who could appreciate it, or at least for older people who are sort of watching the show. But, like, the gender flip here that Patty is the breadwinner and Graham is the, like, is the culinary god of the house, is in the kitchen, is making, like, all this sort of stuff like that.

the fact that that's there without calling attention to it in a smarmy way, but it not being a non-issue in their marriage is a brilliant aspect of the show. And it's not like the show is proud of itself for doing that. That's what I hate when someone like, when a show does something and they're like, aren't we so progressive? And you're like, okay, it's more like, this is just how this shook out in this family. And actually, people are pretty unhappy about it for one reason or another. I thought was really, really smart. And then Danielle, I would just say is a... I'm sorry, Don Summers never worked for me on Buffy Vampire Slayer, my favorite show.

Did you see my one addendum to the notes? I just wrote, how dare? I would say Don Summers, but actually good. That's my assessment of Daniel Chase. I'm a huge fan of Don Summers. I stand in the minority, but I do love Danielle. I mean, she's the perfect, annoying little sister. I had an annoying little sister, you know?

This was also very resonant for me. I was, the annoying little sister. You were Danielle. When Danielle, the Halloween episode of my so-called life, when Danielle dresses up as Angela, starts like mooning around the kitchen. It's so funny. It's the funniest thing ever.

She's like out loud delivering the monologues that we've heard internally from Angela the whole time. Epic. Absolutely epic. Wonderful. All right, anything else you want to say about these beloved characters? I think obviously like Dillia is not on here. There's like a few characters that didn't make the cut. Yeah, I mean, the whole, like, honestly, the whole ensemble is fantastic.

But no, I think we covered. Not you, Hallie, but everyone else, yeah. Yeah, yeah, Hallie, sorry, get out of here. Get out of here. Go have some Chinese food off screen. But everyone else, I think you did a good job of hitting all the major beats. And honestly, if folks want to hear you hit the minor beats, they've got you episode by episode should they want to listen to more.

I did want to take a moment before we sort of like wrap up to talk about like the show's impact now. So we know it's like immediate ripples through the TV landscape. But the fact that the people who are our age who grew up watching the show perhaps in reruns on MTV are now making the shows is why we're saying like another wave recently of my so-called life influences. A couple clear examples. Never have I ever the Netflix show that recently wrapped up its final season. there's a character Paxton Halli Ishida who could not be more Jordan Catalano coded if Middy Kalen tried

like just absolutely and Davy and like all the characters are quite, you can map them pretty closely onto my so-called life. I don't know this show Joanna. I haven't watched, never have I ever but I, you know, look, I've looked it up

in the past because of you and there's a literal photo of a character named Ethan and a character named Devi. Yeah. leaning, I mean, leaning on the locker. Yeah, it's an exact replica of Jordan. I think I sent you a text message of that photo and Jordan and Angela on a locker, like, side by side. One of the most iconic promo photos is Jordan and Angela sort of like leaning on a locker.

And like they basically recreated it on that show. So that's one. Euphoria is another sort of like really clear one. Sam Levinson, who runs that very problematic show. has said my so-called life was a huge inspiration. Quote, he said this to Vulture. We drew on their style of photography, which captures how the world feels a little dangerous

and unsettling and big. When you're young and sneaking out and wandering around, the backlighting of the trees, the light streaming out, it's just beautiful. So, like, visually ripped for my so-called life. But also, I would say, like, euphoria is, like, what if Ray An Graf, who ODs, you know, in my so-called life,

what if Rand Graf were the main character? Rue is like very Rayan coded. But also you get the character, Hunter Schaefer's character, Jules, who comes to town and sort of like wakes Rue up a bit differently than the way that like Rian does to Angela, but it's a very similar like sort of like, here comes the new person to sort of pull you out of whatever social circle you existed in or existence that you existed in and like brings you into the wider world. But you could almost see, I mean, you know, I fully agree with.

your assessment of Rayanne on the hero's journey, but you could flip it the other way and say that Rayan, right, is like also on a hero's journey and Angela is the wizard and so on and so forth. I love it. Because when I thought about Jules and Rue, I was like, you know, Jules really to me is the Angela, but she does. She's the one that comes into Rue's life and shakes things up. But just like, yeah, the Jules energy is such an Angela energy. You know, she's got this, like, innocence and wide-eyedness about her that really resonates. as an Angela to me. But either way, they're both in a circle, you know.

Correct me or I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure for the season two, one of the Halloween episodes for Euphoria, they dressed Jules up in the Claire Dane's Juliet outfit from Romeo and Juliet with the angel wings and stuff like that. So yeah, like Hunter Schaefer very much as like a Claire Dane's energy to her. And yeah. And then Zendaya as Rayan, like who would say no? this is a very messy show euphoria and Hunter Schaefer just gave an interview this week

being like, I don't know if we're ever doing season three I genuinely don't know. So I don't know if we're ever going to get anymore. But like euphoria as like, again, taking, like my so-called life was very much like, kids drink, kids have sex, kids go to shows, like kids do all these things in a way that doesn't need to be like an episode of the week.

It just is what they do. And euphoria is like, also fentanyl is here now. Right. I know. I'm only watching Euphoria right now. Yeah, my wife had never seen it, and I thought that you would enjoy especially the first season. So I'm like sort of holding these shows. I was already holding these shows at the same time. And I can see the comparison, but I was also like, something has happened. Like there's a big difference between what is happening on Euphoria and what is happening in the My So Called Life era. So there's also that. I would say literally anything Ryan Murphy has done.

Because popular, which is his first show on the WB, is so clearly taken from my so-called life, and then everything that happens thereafter. Like, I think if you don't have Ricky Vasquez, you don't have anything that Ryan Murphy does. And that's just a truism. And the last one, at least, Wicked, the musical that everyone loves, it's going to be a feature film this year, is written by none other than Winnie Holtzman, like, adapted from the book by none of than Winnie Holtzman. and is, of course, a story of, like, a female friendship of, like, opposites of, like, a quiet, bookish girl who gets drawn into a larger world by a loud, sort of more colorful, you know, girl and stuff like that. So it's all there. It's all there.

I love that. Oh, I can't wait to watch Wicked the movie. Let's go. All right. In conclusion, do you feel satisfied with where and how it ended? Winnie Holstman has since said that she had some ideas for season two. A lot of the storylines, we don't particularly love on paper. I will just say, I'll speak for myself.

I don't particularly love on paper. And she's like, Sharon Trisky is going to have a teenage pregnancy and like all those other stuff like that. I'm like, I'm not sure. But on paper versus an idea, a bullet point versus in execution, two totally different things. And I'm sure season two would have been amazing. The conflicting reports are thus. Did a, did Bob Eager, by the way, who was in charge of this decision? Did Bob Iger cancel my so-called life because of ratings?

Or did they get a reprieve from Bob Iger and Claire Daines had already moved on to her film career and so wasn't interested in doing season two? Claire Dane says, please don't blame me for the death of my so-called life. I don't believe that was the case. And other people say it's Claire Dates' fault. I believe the truth is probably somewhere in the middle

where it was in limbo or half-canceled for long enough that Claire Dane's like goes to get other work. And then what happens from there? Romeo and Juliet was not very far after this, right? No, yeah. And she made several movies before Romeo and Juliet. So, like, yeah, it's complicated. I don't think it's fair to blame Claire Dane's,

especially since she was, like, a teenager. But in terms of, like, the finale, where we end, where we end with, like, Angela getting to Jordan's car or where we leave Patty and Graham, I think for me, the thing that feels the most pointed of not having more is not having further healing of the rift between Rayan and Angela, which winds up being, I think, as the years go on, the most important relationship on the show. What do you think? Yeah, I agree. I think that so much, I mean, you know, when you let your mind resolve the story, then you can, you see the seeds of the fact that,

Angela and Rayan are finding their way back to each other. I very much believe that they would have and did come back to each other. And there's something that's also just very true about this ending where, like, first of all, I was, I was like reminding myself exactly, like, how that last scene played out. And you have this incredible situation where Jordan is in the kitchen with Patty, which is just like a moment that I will treasure forever. Yes. But, The ambiguity of it, like Jordan coming out and Brian being there and Angela smiling at Brian as Jordan drives away the car, like that all feels so of your sophomore year in high school to me and so real. And I've never needed like a bow on the end of anything. And I think part of the

reason that I treasure and maybe that we all treasure the show so much is that it is just this tiny little capsule of a moment in time for these teenagers. And who knows? Maybe the storylines in season two would have been just as amazing. But we never have to worry because it just got one perfect season. It just gets to exist perfectly in your head forever. I love that. If someone listened to all of this and hasn't watched my soul called life, like our producer Kai, hey Kai, and is like, maybe I want to check out it. It's all on Hulu. Is if not the pilot, which is a very important episode to begin the journey. But let's say the pilot is off the table.

Is there another episode that you would recommend they check out just to get a flavor of what the show really is? So, I mean, I would really encourage you to start at the beginning and journey forward, you know? Like just how you listen to a record, it's nice to listen to the artist's whole collection in order. But if you can't do that, the one that really jumped out at me was other people's mothers.

This is the one where... Angela's relationship to her mom is really put in contrast to Rand and her relationship to her mom. I think there's a lot of stuff in there that is a bigger example of what the show is. So I would maybe go there. It's also, I think, one of the best episodes. And then my favorite, I'm answering your next prompt, but one of my favorite, if not my favorite episode of the show is actually betrayal. And that I think is a classic, iconic episode in the show. the 19, that could also be an entry point. You get a lot of Jordan Catalano. You get the heartbreak of Rann and Angela and what happens in their relationship. But just start at the beginning. It's only 19

episodes. Come on. The betrayal is your favorite one. That's tough. Okay. That's good. Yeah, it's like, I know. Betrayal, I will admit that betrayal is also the one that I've rewatched most recently, and I have the kind of relationship with the show where like, sometimes it's like whatever episode was the last one. That's my favorite one. I thought you were going to pick the Halloween episode. The Halloween, I thought about it because I love the Halloween episode, but the Halloween episode is so different from every other episode of the show that I thought as an entry point, it might not be the way, you know, because it's almost like an episode of Buffy. Yeah. It's a Halloween episode. What would you?

In fact, Buffy definitely ripped off that episode for their own episode. I mean, I guess I tip my hat earlier, but I think it's, I think it's the Zit, because the Zit, which is the episode with the fashion show, which concludes with the, you know, monologue of Angela talking about beauty. Because, like, the thing about Angela, as beautiful again as we think she is. And, like, the Zit she has is, like, such a real-looking, like, painful Zit on her chin. Like, one of those places where, like, you can't hide it. It's just there. It's this whole thing.

She just sits, like, with her hand, like, covering it for help the episode. And everyone's just, like, don't pick at it. Don't pick at it. It's, like, this whole thing. But, like, her mom, Patty, was. this very blonde, like, conventionally beautiful, super popular teenager. And Angela isn't, and again, clarinets, absolutely beautiful, but, like, feels frustrated and inadequate in, and, like, her mom will never understand her mom with her, who always had perfectly clear skin or whatever, we'll never

understand what it's like to look the way that Angela does and, like, navigate the world. And so, the fact that she goes to this fashion show at the end and is able to see the beauty in herself and the beauty and her mom and her younger sister who winds up doing the fashion show in her place and all this stuff like that is like

I don't know. I think that's an incredible episode television. But also you know I really love I really love Weekend the one where Ray Ann is handcuffed to the bed and they have all all the teens have to take the bed apart in order to get

Ray Ann who is handcuffed to Angela's parents bed. Just like sort of wacky hijinks. Just hijinks, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Great times. Yeah. And I don't know. You're talking now about your start with or you're talking about your favorites as well. I was talking about favorites as well. Your favorites. Yeah. Because I have to say that like it's, it's not in my favorites. I mean, there's only 19. So like how many can I really grab? Just talk about all of them. But so-called angels is an episode. The Christmas episode. Yeah. The Christmas episode. You've got Julianna Hatfield. You've got a focus on homeless. gay teens. You've got like a really truly like a massively impactful episode and usually when I think

of my so-called life, like my brain goes there first before I unpack all the other things that happen in all the other episodes. So I feel like that one deserves at least a mention. Any other like little moments, I didn't prompt you for this, but any other little moments that you want to shut out before we go, I'll give you Angela breaking up with Jordan in her house and like saying goodbye to him and saying that she's going to miss the way his hair is soft in the back of his head. Just like these really like dumb mundane like things to say. But like he like they're just like in it's huge to them.

It's this, it's poetry to them. No. Because it's like the biggest thing that's ever happened to them in their lives so far, you know? Yeah. And they and they deliver that. Like they give us that. I think and like the, you know, taking that and bringing it to the Ray Ann and Angela like there's a moment when they're in the back of the car.

it's actually like after that moment when they tell Ricky to get lost because the cops have shown up and Rayanne is just looking at Angela and saying the words that Angela says that she would want to hear from someone that she loved that moment. And so many other of the, I mean, we haven't even talked about the Our Town episode where like Angela and Rayan are in this horrible fight. I think this is in betrayal. And through the line of, reading of the play Our Town, Ray Ann gets to, like, deliver to Angela,

her feelings. That blew me. As a theater, as like a kid of the 90s who was also a theater kid, I was like, this show was made for me and me alone.

But those little moments, they're everything. So that's my so-called life. Our attempt in an hour to give you a snapshot of why this show matters and is important. It is on Hulu.

You can watch it. You can listen to the If you want to. We had a time. We had a great time making that podcast. I had a great time talking to you about it

on prestige here. And I guess I'll see you another five years. We figure out another way to celebrate my social year. Joanna and I will at least podcast once every five years at minimum to talk about

my so-called life on loop. Thanks to Kai Grady, who has never seen a single episode of my so-called life for his work on this episode. Thanks to Justin Sales for his production work on the prestige TV feed.

and we've got some coverage of industry happening on the feed. Rob and I will be covering slow horses. I'm really excited for that. So stay tuned, the PrestiGV feed. And Kristen, thank you. Goodbye. Thank you so much for having me. Anytime you want to talk about Jordan Catalano, you know I'm here.

Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at Nicole. Tova forms an unlikely friendship with their crumudgeonly, Marcellus, whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Remarkably bright creatures is now playing, only on Netflix.