The Prestige TV Podcast - Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

Jo and Rob are back for an emergency pod to discuss the hit Netflix show ‘Adolescence’ (3:15), Stephen Graham’s performance as the father of the accused boy (9:42), and the advantages and disadvantages of the one-shot concept of the episodes (14:33). Plus, the two get into the standout episode of the four-part series (35:07). Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Try Coffee mate Creamers Now: http://coffeemate.com Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady and Donnie Beacham Jr. Video Production: John Richter Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring, save at Whole Foods Market. This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to broop two new flavors, Thai ice coffee and pinia colada flavored creamers. They're available for sure. They're available for short time only. So for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. We have a very special emergency crashed together pod for you here on a Tuesday.

We're here to talk to you about a Netflix series that dropped over the weekend. Adolescence, four episodes, four one-hour episodes dropped over the weekend. We're going to talk you about the show. We're going to, at the top of this episode, if you haven't seen adolescents, but we know some of you sickos, click on these episodes and listen to them, even though you haven't seen the thing. So if you haven't seen it, at the top, we're going to talk about what it is and whether or not Rob and I recommend that you watch it. And then we'll get in, you know, and then maybe you decide to press pause, go watch it, come back and listen for more. We're going to do all that very quickly. I want to mention that this is dropping on a Tuesday.

Tomorrow, Wednesday, we will have not only our White Lotus episode five coverage, But Rob and I are doing a live Q&A at noon, Pacific, lunchtime. We sure are. Will we be bobbing for pineapples live on air, Joe? Can you commit to that? No, but what if I brought some of the pineapple high chews that they have here at the office? Does that count? You're not even trying.

The pineapple high chews are the best. Sneaky the best high chees. Okay. So listen. Severance, noon, pineapple, B.Y.O. Pineapple. We're going to do a Sufferance Q&A, live mailbag sort of situation. You can send questions at advance to where, Rob Mahoney? Coincidentally, to pineapple bobbing at gmail.com, or, as always, to prestige TV at Spotify.

But also, we will be answering questions sort of live from the chat inside of this Q&A, which you can find on YouTube on the RingertTV channel at noon on Wednesday. And then it also will just be there after that so that you can watch it later. later, but why not join us for lunch or, I don't know, a 3 p.m. snack if you're on the East Coast or other time zones. And then we will have our Severance finale pod up on Thursday night rather than the usual Friday morning. But then we will be doing another pod at the top of next week to sort of gather your reactions to the finale and our look ahead to the future. And we might have some extra bonus stuff on that episode as well. Joe, that's a lot of pods. That's a lot. Some stuff.

some content for your feed. That's great. We might also be covering the studio. Don't worry about it. It's a lot. We're doing fine. We're having a great time here in this content nirvana we find ourselves in. So let's talk about adolescents. Four episodes on Netflix. It's one hour each episode. It's a British show and the premise is a 13 year old boy is arrested on suspicion of a very serious crime. And we sort of follow the investigation over time from there. The sort of hook of the show, a reason why it's breaking through in conversation, among other things, is the fact that each of these four one-hour episodes are shot in one shot. Yeah. They're oneers. And as far as I can tell from behind this, like interviews and behind-the-scenes footage, these are actual oners, not digitally seemed oners.

And we'll sort of talk about the extraordinary process of making this show. We can talk about that. but this is this is a show written by jack thorne who has done a bunch of adaptive IP work that is like hit or miss for me but then a lot of like original work that I find more interesting like he wrote the chris child he wrote the for the his dark material series but then he's also done like this is england and a bunch of other stuff and then stephen graham who is one of my favorite actors and is really like doing some interesting stuff with his career right now um this is also done There's your Venoms the last dances, and then there's also this. But he's extraordinary on this show. So, Rob, what, before we got the text from our producer Justin on Sunday being like, hey, do you guys want to crash an adolescence pod? Yes.

You and I both had heard about this show. Yeah. So the word of mouth was exceptionally strong, I would say. Absolutely. You and I both were like, yes, we will because we have heard nothing. nothing but excitement around the show. So what had you heard that got you excited about the show that, that, you know, made you side text me being like, I want to do this. Do you want to do this, Joe? Sort of thing. I think it was that it was a surprise, that it caught people off guard, that it just

kind of popped up on Netflix without a ton of fanfare, despite it being a pretty extravagant production. And so people happen upon this in their feed. Try it because maybe they love Stephen Graham. Maybe they just are looking for something to watch. And I think if you don't know what you're getting into, this show can can really knock you out. Like, it's pretty heavy emotional territory that they're getting into, as you might guess from the subject matter. Like, anytime a child is involved in some sort of serious, serious crime, we're wading into something pretty deep. I think it handles those themes and those ideas about as well as a project like this can. And I don't know, I don't know how you feel overall, Joe, but I would say from this, like, at a distance, trying to

decide should you watch adolescence or not, I would give it basically my. strongest possible recommendation if you have the stomach for some more serious like true to cultural commentary of our real world sorts of themes. I think this is a really easy, a really easy, yes, you should watch a recommendation. And also just a really easy show to decide whether or not you want to watch. If you watch the first episode and you like it, you'll know. That's the show. You know what I mean?

both sort of like stomach churning aspect and also just can I hang with the cadence of this hour shot in one continuous shot. So we'll talk about all of that. So that's, yeah, we give it our recommendation. We think you should watch it. Easy. If you have it, press pause. Go watch it. Don't just listen to us.

Listen to everyone else who's watching this show and is driving it up the Netflix charts on a daily basis. I got, so I was over at a friend's house on Thursday night and she said, have you watched adolescence? She's, she's in the biz. She's like, have you watched adolescence? I was like, no. She was like, it's their baby reindeer this year. It's like how she sort of.

I think that might be disrespectful to this show. I agree. But like in terms of how Netflix is thinking like this is how we win the, the miniseries category at all the award shows. Like this is sort of how they're thinking. So she's in like publicity. So that's sort of like how she was. characterizing it. I agree. I think this is

way better than baby reindeer, but just in terms of like a British phenomenon show on Netflix that comes out of nowhere. She was like warning me on the Thursday before it dropped on the Friday and then Friday I get the text from Chris Ryan who's like, Joanna,

adolescence. And I was like, oh no. And then I started here for a bunch of other people. So here we are. So go watch it if you haven't. If you already watched it or you are one of those sickos who want to stay around anyway. I will say this. I want to say, if you're one of our beloved sickos who likes to listen to us, gnatur at each other without having watched a thing, that is great. We welcome you. I will just

want to premise the framework of the show for you to help you listen to this. Four episodes takes place over. It's 13 months is the time span of this from arrest to the end of the story. first episode is the arrest and then the sort of booking of the child, Jamie. Here's the question. Do we want to tip the hand as to what happens beyond episode one? Because I feel like where it goes and how surprising this show is and what it wants to tackle, to me, is part of the thrill of it. Well, I'm presuming anyone listening now. Oh, we're spoiler gloves off at this point. Oh, in that case, you know what?

Let's just jump straight to the end. Okay. So episode one is the arrest. Episode two, they go to the school, basically just try to hunt down where the murder weapon is. And by the end of episode one, we have irrefutable proof that this kid has done a murder. Episode three is essentially a two-hander with this kid and a therapist who was sent in to evaluate him as part of the court case. that's I think seven months later So it's seven months into the investigation And then 13 months is the final episode

And that is the boys' family And how everything is sort of impacting them About a year later Is sort of where we leave things So that's just like the basic framework So there's the police station episode The School episode, the therapist episode And the family episode is sort of how I'm kind of reference it

As we talk about it I want to talk about a little bit more about some of the talent behind this show Please. So Stephen Graham, again, who I love. I was at pub trivia on Sunday, and at the end of the game, they put up a, they just put up like a random movie on the screen. And it was Snatched, which starts with Babyface Stephen Graham and Jason Statham. And I got so excited.

I know Stephen Graham, I think best, I think the role that he did that made the biggest impression on me was I was I was a big boardwalk empire fan. He played Al Capone on that. and I think I didn't connect him to some of his work that he had done with, you know, a UK accent. And it was one of those, that actor is an American moment. Sort of how I remember coming to Stephen Graham. But I'm a huge fan of his. What's your, what's your association with Stephen Graham? It's definitely snatched first and foremost.

Although, look, let's put respect on the Venoms' names. Okay. If we must. If we simply must. I do think he's had an incredible wide-ranging career in terms of what he can pull off on screen. But the physical presence that he brings to something and brings to something like snatch and brings to his whole genre of like gangster and gangster adjacent roles that he's played throughout his career, I think informs a lot of kind of what is what is priming us to watch

him on screen here in adolescence as Eddie, where there is the implication throughout a lot of the stages of the story of, is this character violent? Is this an abusive father? Is this someone who does have an anger problem? And we hear a lot more about it than we end up seeing earlier in the stage of the story. So we're filling in a lot of the blanks in our minds as to what that looks like. And it looks like Stephen Graham, a dude who's so jacked, he's about to pop out of his polo shirt. It's hard not to infer some things about that just from that character and that actor.

And they know exactly what they're doing in having him in this role. The polo is popping. Well, and you say they know exactly what they're doing having this role. He is the co-creator of this show. And something I wanted to highlight about him is that. And CR was talking to me about this a little bit. Like what Stephen Graham has done with, he is much better known in the UK than he is here. He has like an OBE.

Like he is he is a fixture in UK film and television. And what he has done, and this is Sierra's point sort of like with his fame and his juice, I would say, in the last few years. In 2020, he and his wife, who's also an actress and a producer, Hannah Walters, co-founded a production company. and so they've been making projects alongside your Venomses and your other things. And so, and he sort of started to amass a kind of stable of actors, like Ashley Walters, who plays the lead detective in this, and Aaron Docher, who plays the therapist in this, were in a thousand blows, this, like, period boxer project that he did also this year with his wife. So, and then the director of this. And here we are complaining about recording multiple podcasts. Stephen Graham. It's just like, yeah, multiple extravagant productions in one calendar year, no big.

Exactly. The director, Philip Barantini, who directed all the episodes, is best known for directing a film called Boiling Point, which is a oner. It was based on a short film called Boiling Point, which was a oneer. And then they did a whole feature film and then a TV series called Boiling Point. That is set in a kitchen. You know, so that episode of The Bear, but make it longer and probably more agitating. But I think, you know, collecting directors that he's worked with before, actors that he likes and works before. with before I was watching an interview he gave where he was like at this point in my career, I just like to surround myself with like people who are good at their jobs and pleasant on set. Yeah. And like that's all I want to do now. And so then this is like a passion project of a kind for him and it was inspired by him, the actor Stephen Graham. It's inspired twofold. One, it's inspired by him, the actor Stephen Graham, having seen a couple news stories about young men doing horrible crimes, violent murders. And he was deeply troubled by that and thought that that should be the subject of a show.

But also what it sounds like to me, based on some of the interviews that I was looking at, was he was asked to do a oneer project. So first came the idea of we're going to do a project where each episode is one shot. Yeah. Then what is the subject matter that we want to pair with that? So it's this idea of like what came first. What came first was this idea of like the hook, which is four episodes, one shot. And I want to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of the of the Warner concept in a second because I have a lot of complicated thoughts about it. But I do think it's interesting in this Netflix content world, this idea that like,

A studio, a streamer comes to you and says, hey, what do you got that you can turn into a project where each episode is a one shot? Yeah. It's a, you know, it's a, it's a, a content conduit towards storytelling and art. I'm not mad about it necessarily. It's very pragmatic and practical. But I thought that that was sort of an interesting element of how this was put together. I think there's a lot of ways where that could have gone horribly wrong, coloring in the lines that Netflix. provides you as far as that kind of structure, this construction, and I don't feel this way about

a lot of one-shot stuff, which usually can be overly showy, pointless just for the point of extravagance and the point of kind of showing off the cinematography with no actual narrative value. I think the one-shot construction for adolescents specifically brings a lot to the table in terms of the story that they're trying to tell and the impact of how it ultimately hits. There's a couple of different ways in which I think it really, really pays off. And as you said, we can kind of circle back to some of that stuff. but if they were filling a brief, I think mission incredibly accomplished

as far as that goes. And I think it was really smart to keep it to like four episodes. Yes. You know, it's not a novel idea for the British model to have a four episode series,

but it is unusual in American television, of course. I will say this too. If you haven't seen, if you've already watched the show and you haven't seen any of the behind the scenes featureettes and footage as far as how they made it,

it's remarkable to go back and watch and to read about the process where basically, like a three-week segment into every episode, week one being a rehearsal among just the actors, week two being a rehearsal with the cameras involved, which you have to understand, like are dancing around and moving through people and out windows in a really kinetic way, have to be marked out, have to be staged in their way. And then week three is filming two takes a day for five days. And so the idea that given the emotional heft, I'm not just like what these actors have

to execute in terms of hitting their marks and the very delicate staging and everything interlocking, in such an integral way to the story you're trying to tell, but also deliver the biggest emotional moment in minute 40 of a take is just a ridiculous ask of this cast. And the fact that everyone is so game for it and so good at it, look, Stephen Graham has found a hell of a troop. If this is his troop, I think he needs to look no further. I mean, especially since the biggest burden is on this actor, Owen Cooper,

who's this kid who is incredible. in the show and and a couple other kids too like you know that there's like several young performers who were asked to do some really heavy lifting emotionally in these episodes the idea that yeah if you and then you fuck up a line and you're your beautiful reaction you gave so those behind the scenes sort of featureettes are incredible to watch they used it's usually sort of handheld onto certain cranes and that sort of stuff but there is one dronge the flashiest sort of like thing is end of episode two drone shot, which I didn't need, but like, but let's let's sort of go through like the advantages and disadvantages of.

Damn, you're anti-dron. This is a tough corner for you to be on, Joe. You hate the, you're pro-drown? I'm not actually pro-drown, but that's, you love a, you love a drone? I don't, I don't actually love a drone. I want to be very clear for everyone listening at home. There's a facetious comment. I'm anti, I'm not pro-drown, but I'm proved that. Love's a drone. I'm pro that drone shot. I am pro. No, I mean, no, I didn't.

I wasn't anti that shot. It just was, it was an ambitious bit of flare. Yes. That I didn't need for the episode to be great, but like doesn't not work. Does that make sense? That does make sense.

I think the fact that you can go from chasing into character beat into flyaway drone shot into extreme close up on Stephen Graham in a one or format. It's just like, I've never seen that before. And so I'm, I'm extremely down for that element of that execution. It's dazzling or even just watching them like, even inside of the family's home, you know, a midsidesish home with a kind of tight staircase, watching the behind the scenes of them handing the camera up the staircase to capture people in the stairs is incredible stuff.

I'm glad you point that out because like the, the one or stuff as it relates to a drone shot or flying out the window is naturally sort of a. resting and dazzling, but how you bank corners in a tight English home does not make sense, like geometric sense. I have no idea how they pulled it off. And I think that, I don't know, okay, let's talk about it this way. So Graham said, and I, I love this idea, Stephen Graham said it was, his note was, I never want the camera to not be following a character. Yeah. I don't want the camera just wandering hall. So even when we get to the second episode, the police, no, in the first episode, in the police station, we're wandering all around, but we are given, like, various sergeants and nurses and stuff like that or a lawyer that like when we go in and out of rooms, we're following that person as they're sort of moving paperwork around or whatever it is they're doing. And so we're always with a human that we like identify as a character that we know the school. There are teachers and students and stuff like that that we're following around. So I will, here.

Here's a one or disadvantage. And this is a me problem. My brain can't shut off a running commentary of how did they do that? How did they do that one? How did they get that? How did they achieve that? Yeah. Your sense of awe and wonder is overriding your ability to process and enjoy and engage

with the show. My infamous, yeah, slack jaw delight. But yeah, just like my puzzle brain is just sort of like, how did they get the camera to do this? Um, that was most distracting, I would say, in episode one. And then by episode two, even though there's still a lot of movement around the school, I was able to kind of let go of it. And then episode three, because it is just basically two people in a room for most of that episode, then it was just sort of gone. Um, is that something that happens to you that do you get like distracted by sort of thinking about the logistics of how they got the shot or the camera to move that way? Occasionally. I think in some cases it does though facilitate the as they're trying to present it. Like, I think episode one is a great example where disorientation is very much a part of that process.

And I was so struck in episode one being basically as pure procedural as this show gets, right? It is arrest to booking to interrogation effectively. Like, that is the process of the episode. But for example, for something as simple as in any other procedural, they're trying to get the code to his phone, to Jamie's phone, to open it, to gather evidence. in this because of the POV kind of laced one or format, you are following person from room to room as they discover. Like in order to, in order to get his phone, you do need the code. In order to get the code, Jamie has to give it to you.

In order for him to agree, he has to be first assessed by this nurse and like made fit to make that agreement in the first place. And in order to be assessed, he has to get his like appropriate adult in the room. And for then he has to decide is that I want to be his mother or his father or this random person, like the social worker who's been assigned to him. And so you see all of these like very complex systems locking into one another. And one thing I thought that Chris and Andy pointed out on the watch, I thought was a great observation about this is you're seeing people at different levels of exposure and like emotional vulnerability all throughout this process, right? You have the family that's in a state of complete shock in this elaborate system bumping up

against all of these professionals who are mostly trying to do their job competently. And I would say for the most part, quite compassionately given the circumstances. And not only that. and this is something I do want to come back to, but like re-watching that episode, because you watch that whole episode, you're pretty sure this kid did it because of, I don't know, the thumbnail art on the Netflix splash page, but also just sort of like, what are we doing here if this kid didn't do it?

See, I wasn't that, I wasn't that sure until the end of episode one. Okay. So that, I mean, that's what they're trying to go for. And like, I would say when you rewatch it, knowing that those, two cops already have seen this video. Yep. Or, you know, the nurse might even, you know, like, who knows who all these people who are, the lawyer certainly, and he says this at some point, he's like, they wouldn't have entered

your home in that manner and done on this unless they had really compelling evidence. Yes. So he is like very ready for that video to be, you know, part of this interrogation. He even tries to preempt it and like take a break right before they're about to jump into it. what's coming, right? Whereas the father is blindsided by it. But I think that like, thinking about those two cops

who we meet at the beginning and they're very normal everyday conversation that they have going into this, but knowing that they're in for a horrible day because they and have been because this murder happened the night before, so they've been

probably like, you know, they've been working all night. Totally. Or the nurse saying I think something like, I hate a juvenile case me. You know what I mean? Like she knows she's being nice, but nice with this like bit of reserve to it of like, I, you wouldn't be here if there wasn't something seriously wrong going on here. Do you know what I mean? I was really struck by that overall in terms of the way that the working professionals and the cops and everyone in the station does talk to Jamie. As you say, knowing in some regard what he's done or what he's most likely done. And it's,

even under those circumstances, like, Baskum is not trying to throw the book at him. He is telling him, when we get in there, you should ask for a solicitor. Like, this is what's going to happen. You should ask for these things. These are not just reading his rights, but explaining him in a more delicate way since he is a scared child, regardless of what he's done. And all the people who are assessing him, it's a lot of like, you're such a smart boy. You're such a good boy. It's a lot of mate and love.

And I understand, and I'm sure, like, we're going to get into it as far as like the handling of that character and that character's place in this story, and I very much understand the reads on it, I think treating that character with a kind of compassion is a really interesting artistic choice. And it's happening across the story. And it's happening across the story in a way that I think adolescence has something to say about it. It has a lot to say about that idea of who these people are and the way that they're made. Are you saying there's been pushback on like on the show for treating him too kindly or? I'm not even saying there's been any pushback other than to say like,

I think the show itself engages with this idea in the second episode where the show is basically calling itself out for being fundamentally and structurally a story about Jamie in a lot of different ways. And in particular, D.S. Frank, Misha played by Fahemarse, who I love and I'm thrilled to see in this role. I agree. You have this kind of point of conflict between her and Bascom. where Bascom is very intent on figuring out the why of why Jamie murdered Katie.

And I think Frank doesn't think you ever can know why, which is a reasonable point of view to have in a case like this. But also it bothers her so much that they're spending so much time trying to get into Jamie's head in a way that probably will render Katie invisible or at least put her aside or at least put her outside the frame. And I think Baskom's counter to that, that figuring out the why is in its way honoring Katie. I do find that to be a little bit persuasive, but I honestly very much want to hear what you feel about it, Joe. I feel mixed about it. I had, I wanted to talk, and that's in my notes to talk about. I consider that of my like advantage, disadvantage of a oneer and, and I will zoom back to some other things. This is under, I have this under mixed. Because long form storytelling TV can take you anywhere inside of a story. And that's an advantage of something like, let's say. say broad church,

where we're inside so many people's homes and so many people's lives. And we're at home with, you know, no spoilers for broad church, but we're at home with the murderers as much as we're at home with the parents who are grieving, you know, the child and stuff like that. And so a disadvantage to sticking so firmly on Jamie and Jamie's family. And something that Stephen Graham said, he was like, we really thought it would be interesting to be with Jamie's family in the final episode. Is interesting. And it's interesting in the advantage of the oneer, which is you're there in the claustrophobic silences.

You're there with Jamie crying in the van ride to the police station. You're there with Brian E, the therapist as she, like, stands and wait for the hot chocolate machine to, you know, deposit all the hot chocolate into the cup. You know, like those, those narrowing the iris of the story down into this one hour of time is interesting and causes a visceral reaction in me that I feel positively about. Yeah. I wasn't sure if that moment, again, I also love Faye Marseille. I was not sure of that moment of calling out this thing, lampshading, essentially what they were doing, was satisfied me enough because the disadvantage, of being in the present, you know,

we talk about this all the time when we talk about murder shows. I know. And it's always a woman or in this case a little girl. Yeah, the Laura Palmer wrapped in plastic, this idea of like,

or Rosie Larson on the killing. But in though, like in at least in Laura Palmer, we get, you know, fire walk with me or at least with Rosie Larson and the killing we get flashbacks, some flashbacks to her.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And in this case, it's like Katie, we know a little, bit through her friend that we meet an episode two at the school, but we don't really know anything about her. I'm not mad about it because I think this is a very interesting story to tell. So I'm not like, you know, it invalidates it to leave it out. I'm just not sure that lampshading

it like gets them entirely off the hook for doing it. Do you know what I mean? I don't think it does either. And it's something that even as that conversation is happening in the moment, that was what took me out as much as anything. It's like, oh, we have to have this talk about why the show is structured. Yes. Exactly. Why this show is structured the way it is, to the extent that I give it a little more leeway on that front, I think it's because this show is so deeply unsalacious. Like, it is, it is so uninterested in the glamorization of murder or in this, like, ripped, even like a ripped from the headlines sort of intrigue and so much more interested in the structural factors that lead to things like this. And really the way that not just Jamie is.

a kid who has gone so far astray and has so many clear, terrifying problems. But the way that we as a society have failed kids and we have failed their ability to be raised in a normal format and to be able to function as normal adult human beings. Like, everything is going off the railroad tracks so fast. And it's like, the camera's pointing at the railroad tracks and saying like, why is this happening as much as it is the murder itself

or anything involved? I love that. And I love that. when they talk about this show the line that they've been using in all the interviews is not this isn't a who done it but a why done it right and like

the fact that the show has no easy answers to your point about like your preconceived notions around A. Stephen Graham type Yes. The answer isn't oh he was abused by his father that's not the answer. The story that they wanted to present to you

is this actually is a fairly like loving normal home and I think that all of the you're so bright your smart kid comments was not just them sort of making

in the same way do you want cornflakes mate sort of thing but also to underline like this is a smart kid and this is a thing that happened with this smart kid from a loving family I do want to say I agree with you that it's not a salacious we're not glamorizing murder we're not doing anything like that. But I'm going to, I'm going to, like, call it one last advantage of the

oneer. And this is sort of like where I started with the concept as a conduit to story. It breaks through the noise of content. It does. In a way that we talked about a bit with the pit as well, right? Like the pit being the concept is every episode is an hour in one shift. They're not doing oneers in that hospital. But like, there's a hook. And so I don't know that. a very well-acted, very well-written, very seriously considered four-episode drama about a kid who did a murder would be the thing everyone's buzzing about on a weekend, a Netflix drop were it not for this other part of it. And so as much as it like I wish that weren't the case of what we had to do to get really good stories told, like sometimes that is the case. It is. And if you're going to do it, at least do it well in this particular way, where it is, yes, technically impressive.

But overall, I think the one or format, and we can talk about this in the context of any of these episodes, I would say especially episodes three and four have this advantage where it is just ratcheting up the intensity. Like every cut when you think about it is like a little bit of a pressure release. And so the fact that you never get those pressure releases means every emotion on screen has to work itself out organically over time. and that can lead to all sorts of fascinating and terrifying and painful places. And I mean, even in, even in one and two, to your point, yeah, even in one and two, because we're in such a crowded environment, we're not cutting away for relief, but sometimes we do move into a less stressful room inside of the police station or inside of the school. That school is extremely stressful everywhere. It's just genuinely an awful time to be a teenager.

Just an awful, awful time. And a teacher. Like, all of it is just like. Mr. Malick, not winning teacher of the year anytime soon. And also the woman who was, I forget the name of the woman who was leading them around. But like her. Mrs. Fenimore. Her completely ineffective sort of unaware attitude was, was, okay.

But I want to talk a bit about the sort of sympathy, no sympathy, seesaw for Ryan, which I think is sort of meticulously done across the series. And no place better, I think, than episode three. but Owen Cooper incredible you will see him next as young Heathcliff in the ill-advised Emerald Fennell Wuthering Heights Oh no

co-starring Margarabi and Jacob Allorty Is it too late to pull him out of that? Can we be his agents? I think we can help him out drops people are going to see him in it and be like who is that kid he's great if they didn't already see him in this So I think he'll come out fine I just don't think the project's a good idea.

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Borris Head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Borset committed to craft since 1905. The way that it's rolled out in the first episode, and then we take a break from Jamie and then he comes back in episode three. But like through this whole thing, I was sure that he had done something.

Yeah. But I wasn't sure. Not until you see the video or you like, without much provocation at all. No. You know, we're immediately into a violent, though, to your point about salacious, in the distance, slightly grainy staffing. In a way that, like, we are with his father in that moment of this kid who has been so scared, who has been whimpering, who has been so polite. Yep.

You know, who seems so bright. All this sort of stuff like that. or in episode three, which is my favorite episode sort of by far. The way that Aaron Docherty's character Briney comes in,

having seen him already for several sessions. Yeah, this is their fifth session, I think. Liking him. Yeah. Like comes in with a sandwich for him, with, you know, with banter, and she digs into a place

that by the end she can't even touch the sandwich that she brought into him. She's so perturbed by what has happened here. And watching it, we are meant to. This kid is not, I think what's so special about Jamie as a character is it's not like, spoilers for primal fear. It's not like Edward Norton and Primal Fear where like a switch flips and you're like,

oh my God, this guy has been playing us all along. It's like, this is a kid. everything he says is real, but if you dig one or two layers under the surface, there's something very scary there. Yeah. But not disconnected from the nice kid that you are like, feels so bad that he thinks he's the ugliest kid in class

or just that or the other thing. You know what I mean? I think I agree with you on episode three overall being sort of the standout, which is really saying something given the other three episodes with I think are tremendous in their own way. but the sort of experience of watching this show, hitting your brain against itself.

We have seen on tape that he stabbed this girl. And like, we know it. It's not something a character said. It's not a little thing to put out there that they're going to swerve. And it turns out he's not actually the killer and the tape was doctored or whatever. It's like, he is the killer. And yet you can't help, at least I could not help, but be charmed by him at certain points and to see him as that kid. And it's just like, it is impeccable acting.

It is jackpot casting. It is, it's really threading the needle in finding someone who can be both the kid who pisses himself when the police show up in, like, whimpering in his bed. And also lording over this therapist who's come to, to talk to him and evaluate him. And to be not just angry, but like, it calculatedly intimidating. Like there are moments where I agree with you, it's not a flip switch. It's not a switch flip. but ultimately he'll have his freak out moments that are kind of pure anger or pure frustration

or him like getting out some kind of boyish young energy and anger. And then when he comes back from them, there's there is something there that is so dark. And it is so like him seizing control of that room and him trying to seize control of their dynamic, his dynamic with yet another woman in his life that he wants so desperately to like him. And yet he can't get her to admit it. in some cases because, like, professionally, she simply cannot. Yeah. Oh.

The, that episode, episode three, um, very little happens outside of the room, except for this, like, guy, the facility sort of hitting on her question mark. Is that what's happening? At least kind of chatting her up. Yeah, chatting her up a bit in a, in a way that, like, is all in the mix of the larger conversation of the show. But I was struck by some of the just like tiny pieces of language. And again, Jack Thorne has been like a hit or miss writer for me, but some of the tiny pieces of language inside of that episode when he says in one of his freaked out, your little head. Right. And then when he says,

when she waves off the guard and he's like, oh, like a queen. Right. There is this like misogynistic language that is not like all women are. sluts or what it's not big and obvious yes it's little and caked into the very marrow of who of who this who this kid has become yeah due to the environment that he has sort of found himself in and i think that like i think also the kid curiosity because there's there's jamy who is our perpetrator there's his friend ryan who gave him the knife um and he and ryan have these sort of like echo moments of their interi

you know Jamie with Brianie and Ryan with Bascom both have this moment where Ryan goes you were popular right yeah he's kind of like he fixates it on it really quickly you were popular right and and to Brianie Jamie goes

oh you're posh and so there's this way in which they're identifying these adults as like there's no way you can understand who I am because you were popular or you're pretty and posh, and you can't understand my plight. And I'm not even going to give you the opportunity to make this connection with me that I thought was really stunning and telling. I think the way that Jamie locks on to, yes, those sorts of associations, who can understand him and who can't, how people communicate with him?

Like, he's so enamored with this idea of like, oh, that's not what normal people say. Like, when I say that I'm ugly, you're supposed to reassure me. When I say that girls would never be interested in me, you're supposed to tell me, of course, that's not true. And her unwillingness to participate in that is some of what stokes all of the intensity in that scene and what brings out some of the language you're talking about, like the queen and the little head. And even when he's describing, you know, what kind of preempts him murdering Katie is some nude photos of her leak out among the school from Snapchat. And he decides that he wants to like take a pass at her in this moment, that she has been embarrassed enough. socially, exactly, that he says she's weak and that therefore she might be more susceptible to his advances. And like that idea, just like putting it in that way, like we hear reiterated

over and over again in episode three that it's not about what happened, it's about what he thinks. It's about, it's not what is true is how he's thinking about things. And one area in which this show, which very much wants to be a show about masculinity and a story about how these boys become these boys and how they become the kind of person that would murder a girl. it engages very openly in some of the factors that facilitate that, right? Like their depth online and what they're exposed to on the internet, what they're exposed to in these schools. We get explicit like Andrew Tate name checks, kind of Manusphere mentions overall.

I thought it was really interesting that they choose to make Jamie not someone who follows all that stuff credulously, but someone who has looked at it and said, some of this isn't really for me, but also ends up parroting other bits of it almost suburb. subconscious, like accepting it, regardless of whether he thinks he's doing it or not. I thought, like, that that's such a great choice that makes it honestly so much more fucking terrifying. The nuance of episode three of him saying it's fucked up that someone shared these photos of her. Yes.

But also it put her in a weak position. So I thought that maybe she would go out with me. Yeah. To the point where after his, like, final freak out in episode three, To the point where when we get to episode four and we're considering it came to me the moment when he's on the phone, he calls his dad, it's his dad's 50th birthday. He calls his dad and his dad has his on speaker phone because his mom and his sister in the car. And he's talking for a while and then he's like, your mom and your sister are here. And he's like, oh, I thought I was just on the phone with you.

And it like made me go back to like When he picks his adult he picks his dad and his mom is like Why didn't he pick me or then later his dad is like it should have been you But like this idea that he's like Only my dad will understand me like and you know that's that's a human that can be like a human thing But it also felt like slightly gendered of like I didn't know the women of my family were on this call I thought I was just talking to my dad sort of thing and that was like It just slightly creeped me out in a way that like

And then I feel, you know, at the same time, the show just thrives the needle really well because I really do feel for this kid. And when he like draws a card for his dad and just sort of like, man, it had me Googling like juvenile murder sentencing UK. Like what, you know, what's the future like? Totally. For this kid because he's done this horrific thing. And I'm still like, can we come back from this in some way? is there a future of any kind for this kid? Like, what do we do here? So I have to say, like, coming out of this, it makes me really feel for every parent out there who has a teenager or a near teenager who's having to deal with this because, I mean, one of the ideas that's kind of throughout adolescence, I would say, especially in the back half, is this idea that his parents are reckoning with at the end in like, how did we make

this monster effectively? And yet a monster that we are still claiming as our own, they're not disowning him. They're not pushing him away. Like, he is still their son. And one of the things they talk about is, like, they thought he was safe because he was in his room. And this idea that the danger has transcended the boundaries of your home, that it is infiltrating, that there really is no way to keep it out other than to try to be more present in their lives, to try to put them on these kind of more constructive paths. And I think that's where you get ultimately, like the Bascom parallel with his son Adam, who also is a kid at school who was bullied, who also is kind of a bit of a social outcast. We hear from the first, the very first episode at the beginning is trying to get out of going to school.

Right. Because he gets bullied all the time. And you see it in action. Like you see the kids picking on him and it sucks and it's terrible. And ultimately, there are a lot of kind of minor parallels between Bascom and Eddie, right? They're both like working men who have long hours who come back late who aren't as present in their kids' life as they may want to be. And yet Adam is on this one path and Jamie is on this other path. And it's such a fine line between them.

that drawing up any specific causality would be a failure of judgment. It's so complex and it's so difficult to assess like why this happens to one kid and not the other. And I appreciate this show trying to at least wrestle with that idea. Yeah. I think ending episode two with Bascom connecting with his kid in a way that they're not, the show's not saying this will fix it or like everything's fine now. But it's sort of like.

I mean, it depends on how good the chips are. If the chips are great, then maybe we're on the road. A move in the right direction. Yes. And then the next thing we see, as we're doing our fancy drone shot, is a bunch of isolated kids down their phone. You know what I mean? And Katie's friend in particular, like, there's no happy ending of that episode for her, you know?

And so I think that, like, all that stuff is really finely tuned. something that I like that they made sure to do is that all of the Andrew Tate sort of specific codified insult stuff they only have the adults say.

Yes. And I think it's good characterization for Bascom too that this is a guy who's very smart and very good at his job and a good investigator and he's in totally over his head

when it comes to anything related to the internet. I loved the scene with his son where his son's like this is what these fucking emojis mean. You're embarrassing. You're embarrassing yourself and me.

But then also, I think that yeah, so to have this like, there's a language you don't understand. Your kid's not safe at night in his room and there's an entire language and not to be like, not to be all a father, as a father of daughters about it, but like my nephew

who I love, adore, is like exactly this age. And I was just like thinking about him so much and he's like so sweet and like all this, you know, like yards away. from anything like this as far as I know. But like, yeah, it gave me a real, I was like, oh, no, not the father of daughter's moment

for you, Joanna, in terms of like empathy and fear. Yeah. In terms of watching it and thinking about him going into high school and what that's going to be like and all of this sort of stuff is just like really terrifying. And they've been kids, I don't want to talk about them too much because I don't think my sister would want me to, but like they've been kids who have been raised without devices. And that was like a strong parenting choice she made. and in some regards that is going to change their lives.

But, like, I don't think you can keep all of this out forever. And that's just, like, something to think about. I think episode two does a good job of illustrating some of that, too, just like the way in which not just teenagers or teenagers, but this particular generation of teenagers and the way they respond to things. And the way that, like, even Katie's death is something that's kind of being snickered about by some of the kids in the school. And that's, look, that is a tale as old as time. Like teenagers trying to cope with tragedy and not knowing how to do it and making ridiculous and terrible jokes, that's always been a thing. But the ways in which some of the information, ultimately some of the worldview that we're talking about that Jamie gets a hold of or really gets a hold of him, that stuff that can course through school as fast as it can through comments on his Instagram, right? We don't come here to bury the pit in order to praise adolescents.

That's not we love the pit. Still in the running for Best Show of the Year for me so far. love the pit. However, you and I were just sort of making fun of this line from the pit that Noah Wiley's character, Dr. Robbie, says, we are failing young men because we don't teach them how to express their emotions. We just tell them to man up and then we let them get their lessons in manhood from toxic podcasts. It was just like a little obvious on the nose moments. Tell versus show, ultimately. And the pit does so many things so well.

So, like, again, I'm not here to like tear down the pit, but I was just sort of like what they thought. they were doing with that line is like what this show is doing in a much because it's the whole premise of this show is in a much more complex way again there are no clear answers to how do this happen and there's no clear answer on how do we stop it the show is not interested in solving this problem this show is interested in just holding it up for you to look at and think about something I love also in terms of the writing process in that like arduous three weeks. sort of shooting of each episode process is that they let the kids rewrite some of the lines. Yeah. Because they're like, you know, we're men in our 50s and like, what do we know about the way in which like teenagers now are talking? And so I'm not a young teen. But like, is this a show that it's going to connect with young teens? You know, I'm curious to know.

I don't know. I suspect more so adults. Or so adults for sure. I think the effect that you described of if you are a certain age, you immediately think to everyone you know who is in that tween to teen bracket and how they may tangentially be involved in these sorts of worlds, whether they know it or like it or not. Yeah. That's something that's, I think, so much easier to do as an adult looking down in age versus for teens looking across themselves. Definitely. But I do remember being a kid and I remember there are like TVs and shows.

shows you can watch where you're like, that's not how in a, like, a human teen talk. Of course. And then there are shows you can watch where like, like, my so-called life lingers because my so-called life really got it right in terms of the way in which actual teenagers talk versus, I mean, Dawson Creek lingers for a different reason, but no human teen has ever said any of those words. So like, if they got the way that the kids talk right, right, there's a better chance that a teen could watch this and say, it. you know, not scoff at like, of course. Older men trying to tackle the problem of adolescents in the modern world.

Anything else you want to say about the show, Rob Mahoney? I just want to say one, I want to clear out one final moment for episode four in particular. And I will say, like, to me, the biggest payoff of the oneer style. A lot of it is in episode three. I think that's an incredible piece of work. But what we get from Stephen Graham and Christine Tremarko in episode. episode four, as they are processing as parents. And they've been through a day that I imagine is like many of their days where they try to pretend some things are normal and everything just

comes crashing down. Like the idea of normalcy is not available to these people at this time. And the way it becomes fractured and the way that they start falling apart and the way that they start diagnosing and questioning, like, was it this thing that I did? Was it my temper that led him down this particular path? I think is just a remarkable piece of acting, among other things. and in particular Stephen Graham and his character Eddie going into Jamie's room at the end of the finale. Holy fuck. I mean, just sitting on his son's bed, tucking in his teddy bear, sobbing and apologizing to his son that can't be there. It just fucking laid me out, man.

And I think the power of this show is if I ever listen to the song that is playing during that sequence for the rest of my life, that's auroras through the eyes of a child, I'm just going to be wrecked. And it's going to take me right back to that moment. It's like for everything that we said about the pit, like to me, adolescence, it also has this moments of like, let me say this part out loud really quickly before we move on. But then it lands it with this. And so that to me is why everything feels so different in the show as far as, as far as messaging within television is concerned.

I feel like we've had a real week talking about being TV criers, Rob. But like, yeah, I mean, I think that, um, that Aurora song, there are, it's just a job incredibly, well done, but the show ends with a very sentimental. Yes. Extremely sentimental song. Sentimental in like a very specific sort of like UK kind of, that sort of like UK extra layer of schmaltz that I think that they are like capable of.

I say with absolute adoration. And this extreme performance from Stephen Graham. But like what I love about that and it all lands and I am also laid out. But like, I'm the kind of person where like, if they hadn't done it right, that would feel all too much. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Well, especially when he is crying over the murderer of a teenage girl. Yes.

And so it is, to me, it's the magic of this show that Jamie in scenes can make you forget for a second that he's a murderer. And that his parents can make you forget that what you are feeling and what you're crying about and what you're experiencing is sympathy and pity and regret over, if not a murderer than the tragedy that, made this kid a murderer. And that's like a wider societal tragedy as much as anything. But I think going back and sort of rewatching episode one, and I didn't watch it all back through, but I like sort of spot watch some things. And like, I remembered registering this at the time that Stephen Graham, he's giving a like, they break into the home. He's like, what are you doing? You know, this is my home. You're wrecking the place. All this stuff like this. But he is like often quite contained and stoic in that episode.

and until the end, obviously. But I remember watching it and I'm like, they're giving us this because I know he has to go somewhere. So they're starting us here. So that Stephen Graham, who's like every cut to his face I was like captivated by. I just think he's incredible in this. But yeah, I thought it all built up to an incredible conclusion and climax. And Christine Tremarko, whose work I'm not as familiar with.

Yeah. I thought it was wonderful. Stephen Graham has said that those two actors have known each other since they were children. And there is this sort of like baked in. This is what I'm talking about. Like we've been talking about Christopher Guest films, like creating your stable of actors that you just feel comfortable and familiar with. And you can go build from there. We're incredibly lucky to get to see it.

Anything else you want to say about this tough to watch but very incredible show? I really hope if you're listening this far, you've already seen this. show. And if you somehow haven't, even after everything you've heard, I would encourage you to watch it. Yeah. Thank you to Justin Sales. Thank you to John Richter. Thank you to Donnie Beecham. And we will be back for severance, more White Lotus, and all other kinds of things here on the prestige feed. And we'll see you soon. Bye.