The Prestige TV Podcast - 'Pam & Tommy,' Episodes 1-3

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

Bill Simmons and Chuck Klosterman talk about their mixed feelings about 'Pam & Tommy,' the new Hulu miniseries that tells the story of Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee's leaked sex tape. Hosts: Bill Simmons and Chuck Klosterman Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, the host of the podcast, Plain English. We tackle technology, politics, culture, history, everything that's happening in the world and why it matters. New episodes of Plain English drop every Tuesday and Friday on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Prestige TV podcast. My name is Bill Simmons. I'm with Chuck Kosterman. He has a new book coming out on February 8th called The 90s. Check it out. Topical right now for this show because we're going to talk about. about Pam and Tommy, which was released on Hulu late this week. We watched the first three episodes. That's what was released. We're going to talk about all of these episodes. What was your memory of the situation heading into the series, Chuck? Well, I definitely remember that.

I mean, I remember having a friend give me the videotape. I sort of remember a lot about what was on the videotape. I really remember Pamela Anderson having this kind of cool joint rolling device. I guess this maybe reflects me, but that's like the main thing I remember is her on this boat rolling these incredible huge joints. They used to always say, where are we in the video? They were always lost. And of course, there was lots of sex in it as well.

But that was my memory of the event. I wrote about it previously. I don't know if that was a great idea at the time because it meant something different than it does now. I guess I have very mixed feelings about this show. So my memory of it was, you know, this is pretty much pre-internet at this point. And Pamela Anderson, Baywatch, was one of the biggest shows, you know, and it was just on, it was syndicated. And she kind of became the Marilyn Monroe of that generation for whatever reason.

And then the fact that this sex tape existed, everybody was like, I can't pull. believe it. How does this exist? Wait a second. And, you know, there was definitely a scramble to get it. And I think the show definitely deals with that aspect of it because, and I've only watched three, but Pamela Anderson becomes the sympathetic character in it, right? And they're clearly steering you that way. Well, she's always been a very likable person. I mean, you know, I think that it's pretty easy to make her, particularly in this circumstance, pretty sympathetic. Here's about the show does well when they're describing how the internet seemed to people hearing about the first time. Like there's a scene, I think it's the third episode, maybe it was the second one, where

Seth Rogan is describing to Nick Offerman, like how this is going to work, how they're going to sell this, you know, over the, you know, over this thing, the internet that Nick Arferman has no experience with. And that's, that's well-written dialogue the way they do it, because it would have been very easy to make the individual seem too simple or too complicated. Like, the language is done well. I mean, in general, like, this is a well-cast show. I think that it's certainly very watchable. But there's something about it that, I find uncomfortable. Okay.

What is it? I was trying to figure out what it was because I'm watching this thing. And like in a sense, I should be the target market for this, right? Because of my age and my interest in Mali crew, my fact that I was interested in the, what the meaning of this tape was when it came out. Because to me, it seemed like it had something that was, that had nothing to do really in many ways with pornography, but just sort of because pornography is intentional. this was something that was taken from someone, you know.

But here's the thing. A show like this typically has to operate in one of two ways. Okay. One way is to be like, it's trying to say something about society. It's trying to reflect some larger idea that there's a real meaning for it. But there's a, like, it's necessary that this exists in order to get to a specific point. Another possibility is to be like, it's entertaining. That's enough.

It doesn't need to have some sort of larger idea. As long as it's fun to watch, that's what we generally watch television for. But I think what's strange about this show is that it's operating like a show in the second category, but the tone is somehow in the first category. It has the tonality of a show that seems to be making some kind of meaningful or significant argument, but that's not how it feels to watch it. The show is kind of like it's almost the first three episodes are the best parts are about the crime aspect of it,

like how this crime was allegedly or supposedly committed. I feel the way they're depicting Tommy and Pamela Lee's relationship is strange. I don't know. I wouldn't say it's bad. I think it might be good. and yet I don't know if I would keep watching it if you hadn't asked me to. It's funny, the guy Craig Gillespie, who did Love Tanya, directs the first three episodes of this, right?

And I had a similarly complicated relationship with that movie because I thought Margot Robbie was really good. I knew the story and I was interested in all the mechanics, even though I knew a lot of them. But it was the same thing where it was these kind of comically crazy characters, right? And having a lot of fun with the characters, but at the same time, it was a crime. And it was like, I didn't know the line. Like, Nancy Kerrigan, the whole thing, I didn't know where the line was between. Am I just having fun with this or something serious

we're going on? So the way you laid that out, you're right. Like, there's this weird, cool crime drama thing happening that I didn't really know the whole story about. Well, yeah, because it gets into things that it wasn't that I, not just I didn't know the story about, like, I never considered it. I never considered it. I never considered it. I never concerned, how do you make a bunch of copies of a VHS videotape if you're just a person? You know, like, you know, so that kind of explains how you kind of go through this or, or sort of the kind of the methodology of how this happened, which I think is. Breaking in the house.

Breaking in the house. I thought I didn't know any of that stuff that. He cased the house for two months. I guess I'm also a bit skeptical in that part of the story. The whole thing with the, with the Seth Rogen character, you know, I guess we're supposed to see him as somewhat sympathetic, to a degree, a little pathetic, but by being pathetic that is supposed to amplify the level of sympathy. And, you know, the first episode I watched, I was like, well, you know, it's good

because they're trying to make this guy sympathetic and I don't feel anything for him. So that means that they did a good job balancing these things. But now by the end of the third episode, I certainly feel. as though they're making it very difficult not to like him, just the idea of him or to sort of illustrate what his real desires are. And I don't know, I'm a little skeptical if that's how it was. I mean, I was skeptical about the way in the first episode they depict Tommy Lee's relationship with these contractors. Like, I don't think Tommy Lee is probably some great humanitarian.

I don't think he's even necessarily a good person. But the way that they are illustrating him does not seem totally in line with everything else I know about him. Or, you know, the sort of the way he has sort of always been. No, I mean, someone will listen to this and they'll be like, well, I read the dirt, you know, he's a fucking scumbag or whatever. And you can make that argument for sure. but I don't see him as somebody who would put a gun to a guy's neck.

I just, that doesn't seem like him, but then again, I could be wrong. I mean, the person who did this series definitely did their homework. Like, for example, like, okay, so what did you think in the second episode? This really isn't, I mean, maybe this is a considerable spoiler, I guess, if you're really worried about this. We're allowed to spoil the first three. Okay, so what do you think about the stuff where he's talking to? his penis and having this long conversation with his dick. Okay, what did you think of that?

I think it's been the year of dicks on TV because Euphoria is certainly trying to break the record on HBO, but it just seems like a device now for some of these shows to go over the top and be like, oh my God, I can't believe they did that. I thought it was ridiculous, but at the same time it made me laugh. Well, here's what is interesting about it. So I'm watching that scene, and at first I'm like, this is. is exactly what I hate about this kind of thing. And that might have been a situation where I would have just stopped watching. Then I remembered something. Tommy Lee had a memoir come out called Tommy

Land. Right. He talked about his dick in it, right? About how he would have conversations with it. We had the same publicist in Canada. We had the same Canadian publicist. And she gave me that book, right when it came out. And I remember reading it on an airplane. And that is part of the book. the book is somewhat semi-narrated by his penis with the idea that, you know, it's like kind of his, his, like, his id or whatever. Or like, or it's strange with Tommy Lee, he almost sometimes presents his dick as like being more reasonable than he is. Like that's the voice of reason or whatever.

So I thought to myself, you know, when I kind of, when I remembered that, I was like, oh, well, at least this person put some time into putting the story together. Like they're definitely thinking about all these different things. They're pulling, you know, like it's a pretty kind of complete analysis of this scenario. But well, but that was also coming out of the sex tape. That was one of the talking points in the 90s where it was like, Jesus, Tommy Lee, huge hog. So it became part of the Tommy Lee persona from that point on. Oh, definitely.

And he leaned into it, I would say. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was if you have someone illegally steal your most intimate materials and the takeaway from it for the average person is, wow, you have a huge dick or whatever. It's like, I'm sure he was, that was the best case scenario for him in a certain way. I mean, if you're going to have this happen to you. I mean, that's like, I don't. And you know, it's.

Well, you could us argue it was bad for Pam. Anderson because, and I don't know how her career turns out the other way, but I think, I don't think anything was good about the tape for her. I think it was better for Tommy Lee than it was for her. Now, you could argue, all right, she was on Baywatch. She kind of hit the jackpot with that. What was next for her? It wasn't like she was going to become the next Merrill Streep. I don't, a lot of times you see people with a four-year run and then it's kind of over if you're like the token, you know, super hot chick of the moment. then that has a shelf life.

And so I don't know what kind of career she would have. In this show, in the third episode of this show, she says that her aspiration is to be like Jane Fonda, which is to be a sex icon who then sort of becomes a serious actress, who then becomes an activist, who then becomes somebody who like sells a workout tape. Like, you know, it's like I have complete control over what I do. It doesn't matter if they're contradictory, all of these things.

Yeah. Now, I don't know if Pamela Anderson could have had a vastly different career than she did if this tape hadn't existed. Maybe it's possible. But, you know, I mean, like even her attempt sort of to move out of Baywatch is to make that movie Barb Wire. So, like, she's not really getting away from the idea that her visual appeal is the center of her. Yeah, like, could she have been a Lara Croft Tomb Raider six years later? I don't know. I think her destiny, because she really was likable,

like I thought she was good on Baywatch. I think her destiny would have been a TV series. Well, it is. The sex tape kind of ruined it. She did have one. She did have a TV series later. I can't remember what the title was, but I know that she did.

Yeah, but I think the sex tape tainted her, though. I really do. Oh, well. I think she had trouble coming back from it. I mean, okay, there's a central irony about Pamela Anderson, which is that we are told by society. that no one can look that way, that that's an impossible, that's like a Barbie doll standard of beauty, that there's, that no one actually looks this, that this is sort of a, some kind of,

a, you know, this kind of projected caricature of what men want in their sort of like kind of most juvenile fantasy. It's somebody that's not supposed to be real, but she actually does look this way, right? Way panel Anderson looks is her, okay? And as a consequence, there is a limit to what she can do that. Like, you can't just integrate her at any point really in her career into a situation where, like, she plays at a character that like, I don't know, like Pam Dauber would have played or like, you know, or, or, or just, I'm just picking it somebody at random or Joyce DeWitt or anything, just anything where, where. Well, it's more like Suzanne Summers, right? But, but be even beyond that. Yeah. Like she was like, like, like Suzanne Summers.

Fairfaus was another way. who had trouble coming back. It was, you know, although, I mean, Farah Fawcett, to some degree, you know, did succeed at that. She was kind of became perceived as a more serious actress later in her career. Yeah. Exactly. You know. But even these examples we're using.

They're not as like, like, like hyper real as Pamela Anderson was. I mean, there's a part in episode two where like Tommy Elise talking to his dick and his dick is saying, what about Denise Richards or like, or, you know, what about Jenny McCarthy or all these things? Yeah. And even those actresses are sort of more in line with what we want to pretend is like the limits of reality.

And and Pamela Anderson visually seems to break out. So that's like, it's a weird thing. It's like saying like you're like she was so almost like, like a. however you, I mean, it's, however you want to look at these qualities, however you want to describe these qualities. I would say, I would say sexual.

Well, sure. And there's like a supernatural aspect to it almost with her. That, you know, in the same way where it, but, you know, it's early in his career, like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Like, you couldn't have, you couldn't have put him in, you know, like a, like, he couldn't compete for a role. You could have been in LA law. Yeah, he wouldn't have been like the term.

Like if it sounds like, okay, for Benny in June, we're not going to cast Johnny Depp. We're going to cast Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's like, well, you know what? You know what's a good example? Heather Lachler, who was one of the 80s actresses on TV that I think guys were in love with, right? Tommy Lee's, Tommy Lee's for his wife. Yeah, and sometimes that has a shelf life, but Heather Thomas was never able to turn it around. Catherine Bach, same thing.

But Heather Lackler found this second act with Melrose Place, and she became one of the biggest stars on TV in the 90s. right. I don't know, Pamela Anderson, like, couldn't have been Amanda Woodward on Melrose Place, right? There always had to be some sort of sexuality to whatever she was doing. Like, the next thing she does after, do you remember what she did after Baywatch and Home Improvement, what her next gig was? It was on for five years. Nobody remembers this. It was a show called VIP. Oh, that was the show. That was the show she had. Yeah, that's the one I couldn't remember. It was a little like a, yeah. Three performers. professional bodyguards, a receptionist, and the ex-hot-dog vendor and figurehead, Valerie Pamela Anderson, make up Valor Aaron's protection VIP, bodyguards for celebrities. That was it. And then after that, she was done. Well, she has, and she always has a good sense of humor about herself. I mean, she's like, she's in that first Borat movie, and she's very, like, she's a small role,

but she's really good. She's very convincing. She's very convincing in a way that does suggest that maybe she could have been, you know, a more serious actress, but it was just going to be difficult. I mean, it would have been like, you know, I, I don't know. Maybe the show gets into that about how it actually affect her. What did you think of Lily James playing her? Because I thought, I actually thought both her and Sebastian Stain who played Tommy

Lee, I actually thought they were pretty convincing. Tommy Lee, my wife was mad. My wife watched her first three with me. She was like, Tommy Lee is much taller than this guy. I don't like how they, and I was like, nobody knows that. Like you're in a very small minority. But I thought both of them were really good and convincing. Yes.

I mean, I think that they, particularly the first time you see them, like they look the way, like, but that's always a weird thing too, because are you looking for an impersonation or are you looking for sort of interpretation? Like the guy who's Tommy Lee, he's more doing an interpretation of Tommy Lee, even though he's using the kind of like language and language. Mexican, that would be the things Tommy Lee said. Yeah. But I guess here's, I mean, okay, this is, we're kind of splitting hairs on this.

So, like, Tommy Lee was with Heather Lockler. He was with Tommy, with Pamela Anderson. He is, who he must be, exceedingly charming. Like an exceedingly charming person to consistently have people who's, you know, like, like Heather Lockler seems like a pretty I mean she kind of seems sensible got together kind of person it was you know it was much crazier it was actually much crazier I don't know what was she different now I've I've not yeah she's had some hard times really okay in the last 10 years no back then though I think that was the consensus her relationship with Tommy Lee was more surprising and weird than Tommy Lee's relationship to Pamela Anderson you know that that seemed to um I'm guessing, I don't know if the, if the series is going to kind of skim over this or get into this, but like, you know, the kind of central question about this is at one point, Tommy and Pamela kind of sign away the rights to this with the idea that like, well, it's going to exist anyways. Like this tape is going to exist. So it seems crazy that we have absolutely no, you know, stake in this. But what is interesting is, you know, there's also, I'm pretty sure I'm right about this, a sex tape with Pamela Anderson and Brett Michaels of Poison.

But he, where they actually stop that from getting like that's like like they, they didn't sign away these rights. So that's what's kind of odd. The, the impression like that Tommy Lee kind of gives, I believe in Tommy land is is that they couldn't stop. stop this tape. So they had to at least get something from it. They had to at least, you know, whereas the other situation kind of suggests, well, maybe a tape like that can be stopped if you go through different means. I mean, that's what Britt Michaels would say. I remember interviewing Brett Michaels like in 1999 or something. And he was like, we like, we killed that. Like, you can stop these things, you know. And that's always going to be, I guess, in some respects,

I suppose maybe the makers of this show feel like that gives them the moral position to make this program. That's going to be, I guess, one of the things, as the show evolves over the next few episodes, that will be one of the central themes, right? Should they actually say, fuck it, this has happened anyway, should we profit from this? I want to go back to something you said about the Seth Rogen piece of this. And they spend way more time in the first episode than I think I expected trying to build that character up. And so two things are going on.

One is that Seth Rogan produced this and he wanted to be in it. And so I had red flags going up that episode because I'm like, oh, man, they're building this guy up because it's Seth Rogan. If this was just an actor that wasn't an A-list star, would they spend this much time on this? And then the other piece of it is, I have such a history with Seth Rogen.

It was really hard separating Seth Rogen from the part, right? Because I think that guy is probably more of a pathetic scumbag than I'm willing to take if Seth Rogen's playing the pathetic scumbag. Now I'm like, I'm used to seeing Seth Rogen play these endearing kind of pathetic guys, right? So I have this Seth Rogen baggage where I'm like, oh, I'm going to instinctively kind of root for this guy. I don't know if this was a guy to be rooted for. So this ties into like how much of this is real, how much this is not real, because we know that with Pamela and Tommy, they're characters of them. There's no way they were actually really like we see in the first three episodes.

They couldn't have been this crazy. I'm sure they amped it up. They're pretty crazy. I mean, that's the thing also about like the tape itself. I mean, the tape suggests, you know, a couple that is living. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, they seem like two idiots in the tape. That's why the plane scene.

That's like, I wouldn't say like, yeah, I guess in a sense, idiot. Oh, baby. Oh, you're so hot. Oh, baby. That's like an hour of that. That scene on the plane where they're married. That's the best scene. Yeah.

Yeah. What's your favorite movie? That's like a good way to sort of capture like that. But you know, Tommy Lee married his mother. I mean, no, Tommy Lee's dad. married Tommy Lee's mother, so his parents. They got married after being together for one week. And I believe the mother did not speak English.

I think that they got married, you know, with not even, you know. So he sort of in a sense is like, like it doesn't seem as weird to him to just extemporaneously marry someone or whatever because I think that that was sort of kind of the life. Although, you know, his is he does have a good. relationship or did with his sister. And it seemed like he had a good relationship with his parents. In some respects, Tommy Lee comes from a relatively stable world. You know, like the guys in Motley crew were kind of were all over the place. I mean, sort of like, you know, like Nikki Six had kind of a tough growing up. We lived in Seattle.

Kind of had a kind of a, you know, hard life. And Mick Mars was much older than the other guys and had already sort of had a career, but was a had a bad career. And he was like, I got to do this to make it. I always got the sense that Vince Neal kind of came from a degree of affluence and that his parents thought it was cool that he was trying to become a rock star. So like it wasn't as though like I don't perceive Tommy Lee as somebody who was damaged as a child. And then that sort of became like that trauma somehow formed his personality. It's not like that. But here again, it's like I probably know a little more about like the history of these guys. I mean, it shouldn't maybe, matter. I mean, I don't know.

Do you think the show did a good enough job of explaining how big Pamela Anderson was at the time and how big Motley Crew was at the time? Like for somebody, like somebody that worked for the ringer who's like in their 20s, do you think that they get the gist even from these first three episodes? Because I actually feel like Pam Anderson was bigger than the show makes it seem. I think the show assumes that the audience knows that. But I think, I don't know if it, Got hammered home the right way. So this story begins in like 1993 or 1994. So Motley Crew was at a low spot.

I mean, John Karabi is the singer in the band. They fired Vince Neal. They put a record out, kind of tanks. I do think there is that one scene where they're getting into a limo and it is sort of crazier than Tommy Lee expects. And he looks at her and is like, you're famous or whatever. Yeah, that's good. You're right.

He is. she is. You know, there's so many different kinds of fame where, you know, it's like, where someone like Pamela Anderson is famous in this almost purely visual way. Like, on a TV show, she can't get lines on her TV show. And it's one of the dumbest TV shows that were made. And like, they're like, we can't trust you with dialogue or whatever. It's like, you know. Yeah. And they've kind of removed Motley crew from the equation of the series so far. Like, you know, it's like when, like, there's also video footage like of Tommy and Pamela's

actual wedding. You can find that on the internet and there's photographs and stuff. And like the guys in Motley crew are there. There's like somebody in a space suit, if I recall. Like someone's wearing a space suit at the wedding. Well, you know what I was taking with Pamela Anderson? Talk about born too soon. If she's 10 years later and even, even if she's, if Baywatch is now, maybe.

Baywatch doesn't hit the same way in 06 because we had more TV and there's internet stuff like that. But if she was able to harness social media when she had that Baywatch fame, she easily becomes Kim Kardashian level, I think, kind of impact. I think she would have like whatever Instagram was in 1996, she would have the most followers of any female celebrity, I think. And so she kind of missed this window where by the time all that mechanism where it became like very looks based and very personality. based and talent didn't matter as much anymore, she missed that window.

And then Kim Kardashian moves in and she becomes, you know, the one or it's like reality TV and Instagram and that's how you build your audience. I guess you could also say if she had been born 20 years earlier, she would have been at like three's company with 30 million people in episode. I mean, like this wouldn't happen to her. Like there was no chance. This would have. Yeah, good point.

I suspect that maybe this show, this series is going to get into this idea of like celebrity sex tapes because this was, you know, kind of really was the dawn of that. And I think that at least, I don't know, I probably should have went back and read the thing I wrote in the past, but I was like, I don't even want to. But I think at the time, if I recall what I was interested in, the idea that I was interested in was that so, of the internet was moving people toward this idea of because pornography was so accessible that there was this heightened interest in amateur pornography that once people realized that they could that, you know, like, you know, there was a time when a young kid was like, had to like search and hide and hunt to get a playboy or a penthouse. All of a sudden, now he can see all that stuff instantly from the first time he can use a

computer by himself if he wants or she. And, you know, so, so it's like suddenly the novelty of seeing these sort of kind of, kind of classically, you know, famously attractive people. Yeah. There was this desire sort of like, like, you know, to see an amateur person, somebody just to look like a normal person. And the thing is, Pamela Anderson does not look like a normal person. Tommy Lee does not look like a normal person. But it is just absolutely abundantly clear in that videotape that this is not intended for public consumption.

I mean, it is like, you know, I guess some people would say uncomfortable, other people would say fascinating. It's like, it is in the show, they're like, I'm like, I feel like I'm seeing something I'm not supposed to see or whatever. And it was like, yeah, that's kind of an understatement. It's like you're seeing, because you're seeing something that in the past, it was, it was an impossibility to imagine to see it. It was impossible. You could talk about Marilyn Monroe sleeping with JFK or RFK. But the idea of actually seeing it, like it was inconceivable. It was inconceivable to the point that nobody would even have said.

It's like, I wonder what that looks like. Like, I wonder what it looks like when this happened. Like, you would never thought that. I mean, this is, this was an example. This tape was an example of giving people something that they had no realization that they were interested in. Like it was, it was prior to. this moment, it was like, I did not think this is something that the internet would do for us as a culture that would give us the ability to see people we, you know, it's like, so that's,

I mean, so from a, from like a, like a kind of a historical cultural perspective, this is a meaningful thing. But I don't know if the show is showing it in that way. I mean, I guess I'm the, I might be the kind of person who always says this, but like a very interesting documentary about this to me would have been preferable. I would have, you know, if, if they made a documentary about this, a real documentary did this and, you know, convinced Pamela Lee and Tommy, too, would be involved, get this criminal involved, get all these, because, you know, like, like, Andrew Dice Clay is in this, and he's very good in the scene he's in.

Because he seems very much like the kind of person who would finance this. Like, it's like, like, that actual guy. I don't know if that guy's still alive. I would be interested to hear his views on these things in general. So, I mean, how much are you liking it? How good do you think it is? We're going to wrap up. You just gave you a review.

I'm going to give mine. I think this would, if you're going to do this in a fictional way, I would have rather had it as a movie. To me, it feels like they're stringing out 10 episodes out of this where I really, I don't know if I want to spend 10 episodes with these characters. I don't know how they're going to do it. I don't know how they're going to get. seven more. It already seems like we're way beyond halfway done.

Yeah. I felt myself drifting a little bit as I was watching the third one. And it made me think, like, would I have wanted to watch 10 episodes of I, Tanya, or just watch the two-hour movie? I would have rather had the movie. So in this case, I think you're right. If you could have pulled off the incredible documentary, that would have had the highest upside because you could have gone into a lot of the stuff we talked about on this podcast. I think it would have been a better movie. I still think this was. I still think this was worth watching. And I don't know if I'm going to keep going on it or not, though.

I guess that's the thing. It's like, I, sometimes, I know you do this with streaming as well. Sometimes you watch a couple and you're like, eh, I'm good. It's nothing personal. It's almost like having a couple dates with somebody and being like, all right. Well, I mean, I will say that to the three episodes, they have gotten better. Like, I think it's a little better now than I thought it was at the beginning. But they're an hour long.

It's like it would be one thing if they were shorter, but like they're long. I do think that that is well made in some, you know, I think the. It's definitely really well made. The musical choices are very good. And like I say, they got some good actors in this, but something can be technically successful and sort of, I don't know, emotionally weird. It's like it's not that I'm troubled by this so much. It just feels weird to me. I'm with you.

All right, Chuck Klooseman, buy his book, The 90s. This podcast was produced by Guy McMullen, and we will see you on Sunday night on the Prestige TV pod with episode five of Euphoria, which has been fantastic this season. Until then.