The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Pluribus’ Episode 4: Carol’s Truth Serum

Episode Date: November 21, 2025

Jo and Rob are back for Episode 4 of Apple TV’s ‘Pluribus. (00:00) Intro (2:43) Listener emails (10:01) Dispatches from Paraguay (18:53) Meanwhile, in Albuquerque (22:42) Freeze frame Mahoney: the whiteboard (39:49) Carol's truth serum (50:30) Guest character actors Email us! [e-mail] or [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Prestige TV Podcast and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Donnie Beacham Jr. Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. And I believe we're here today to issue an apology to the pigeon community, Rob Mahoney. Are we though? Are we? If you did not hear earlier this week in the podcast episode we did about the Netflix series, The Beast and Me, Rob, drop some inaccurate pigeon facts on the pod. So Mr. Burger kebab himself, would you like to answer for your crimes?

You know, sometimes we swing and miss. Sometimes we think that what seems to be a shiny patch on a pigeon is oil when in fact it is natural iridescence. So I salute the pigeons and all the shiny work that they're doing. I happen to be wrong on this one. But I maintain that a pigeon is not a spectacular bird that is worth doodling in your little birding journal. Okay, great, great. He's just doubling down on his pigeon slander. This is what we do in 2025, Joe.

We're here to talk about Pluribus Episode 4 titled Please Carol, written by Alison Tatlock and directed by Zetna Fuentes. And how did you like this episode, Rob Mahoney? I liked it. I mean, I think we're kind of moving the chains at this point, right? The plot is starting to click into place. I would say this is the episode where Carol sort of starts to take control or attempt to of her circumstances, which is exciting. But it's not like the most action-packed episode I've ever seen.

I mean, I think it's interesting because one of the responses we started getting from listeners was why isn't Carol asking more questions? or why is she trying, you know, harder to figure out an answer or stuff like that. So I think, you know, this is, you know, this week. To be fair, she spent almost all of episode two asking lots of questions. I agree. I agree. And it's also grieving her wife.

So. Rob, you and I agree. And I would say, I would say the grief continues inside of this episode. Certainly. But there's a lot of other things going on. I do want to zoom through some listener stuff. I will say last week we decided to move sort of like what, Does this show remind me of Corner to this week's episode?

And I will say next week I'm going to get to a lot of the sports-related emails we got because I do want to serve the ringer audience. Yeah. But I think we're going to move that to next week just because we have like plenty to get through this week. But on that note, Joe, I just want to say the golfers, you've been heard. You've been heard. You've been heard.

Absolutely. We get it. We understand your perspective, although do we? But also keep them coming. Prestige TV at Spotify.com and licking the donut at gemel. I thought some of the golfer emails were actually really good. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty

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the craftmanship behind every bite. Borishead committed to craft since 1905. First of all, our listener, Ali, I just like the way he phrased this. He said I would what he would do if he had access to the hive mine. He said, I would get them to remake the Star Wars trilogy series until I liked it. And that was the whole email. And I just had this vision of Ollie with like a zombieified like Oscar Isaac. at his disposal. He's just like, again, again. Give me the Poe Damran story I want. I don't know. Just the full David Fincher treatment. Take number 183. Exactly. Our listener Morgan was saying that she, you know, we got a lot of answers to like sort of what would be under your very special cloche that the hive mind would leave at your front doorstep.

A lot of like highbrow lovely answers. And then Morgan's like pop tarts and hot pockets or honey butter chicken biscuit. So I guess my question to you, Rob Mahoney, foodie extraordinaire, my favorite foodie, what trash food would entice you under a cloche on your doorstep? First of all, I want to say this. The implication on your part that a honey butter chicken biscuit is trash food is insulting to my culture, and I won't accept it. Okay. You're just going to have to own that one.

But along those lines, look, there's no question where my allegiances lie, and it would be a waterburger. It would definitely be waterburger of someone. of some variety. I think I would not go honey buttered chicken biscuit, but honey barbecue chicken strips sandwich, it's dear relative, the cousin of the family,

just a delightful. A delightful way to welcome your hive mind apocalypse, for sure. I'm really upset with myself because I was like, wow, I wonder what Rob is going to say. And then he started talking. I was like,

of course it's water. Of course it is. But where are you going, Joe? What's under your, quote unquote, trash food clothes? Trash clothes. I,

okay, the true honest heart of me, that's what we're here for. It says it's a spicy, crispy chicken sandwich from Jack in the Box. That's the go-to. I mean, at least you're a step above Jack-in-the-box tacos. You know, you're not going full bottom of the dumpster, just mid-level dumpster. For some reason, I do not enjoy a beef product from a fast food joint, and I always go chicken sando.

That's always my go-to. Safer for sure. Yeah. Okay. Rob, would you also like to answer for your crimes to the Afghan community because we've got many emails from listeners about the use of the Afghan. Rob was questioning why would you have a blanket that has so many holes in it and fired up the Afghan community, I should say, and by Afghan community, I mean blanket lovers.

And I should say, we got many, many answers. A lot of them had to be like weighted, the feeling of the weight on you while still having airflow. We've got like a scientific answer from our listener Bernard about the way in which hot air, the sort of the weave of the Afghan traps the hot air in front. some way. Really peculiar science. What a mystery to me, generally.

And then last one at least, before we get to sort of like the other show comps, we got one more submission for the hive mind name, the carols and the menusnos of this world. Our listener Alex wrote in last week, but I think I missed the email, but our listener Laura wrote in this week with the subject line, Stay Unlicked Cabronones of her email. so I'd be Lauda, I don't know. And she suggested the unlicked as for Carol, for monous notes, et cetera, et cetera. So I really like that, the unlicked, you know what I mean? It is good.

I just think that there's lots of other unlooked people out there. You know, if many of them were infected via chemtrail, can we all lump them into a licking bucket? They were metaphorically licked by this alien plot. You know what I mean? So, okay. on the sort of other show comps, I should say we got a lot of people shouting out the Borg from Star Trek. We got a lot of people shouting at the good place. I know you wanted to talk about a specific X-Files episode, Rob.

Do you want to mention that? Oh, yeah. The season seven episode in which Mulder gets a genie lamp, I would butcher the title of the episode if I tried to pronounce it, so I simply will not. But it falls into this almost like monkeys paw tradition of you ask for a thing, but you have to overly specify the parameters or else you might accidentally wipe out all of mankind kind of wish fulfillment.

And I would say this show is more in the aftermath of that. It's like, okay, mankind has already been sort of wiped out and now you have the empty expanse of America and the world as your playground. But like, what are you going to do with all that? I think also like asking for a hand grenade and maybe having to deeply specify like, A, I was being sarcastic, but B, also don't get me a live hand grenade.

I don't know. But also have noted about that. X-Files episode, it immediately sprang to mind for me after you and I talked about episodes one and two of pleuribis. And I looked it up and of course written and directed by Vince Gilligan. So, you know, the man has interests. On this week's episode, this is just like a perfect episode for Freeze Frame Mahoney. We get some whiteboard writing. And one of the rules that Carol writes down about the hive mind is can't hurt a fly. And one of our listeners, Jessica. Asterisk, allegedly.

Allegedly. One of our listeners, Jessica, a couple weeks ago, mentioned Westworld, which is the sort of like, wouldn't. Though I wouldn't heard a fly. Evan Rachel Wood moment of the West World pilot where she then slaps a fly on the side of her neck is pretty phenomenal. Romancing the Stone was brought up. I don't know if you're a Romancing the Stone fan, Rob Mahoney.

What's the comp on Remancing the Stone? Kathleen Turner plays Joan Wilder, who is a romance novelist. And so it's just sort of like the plot of your book becomes the life you're living to a certain degree. There is a sexy pirate lady who looks just like the romance figure that you've been writing all these years. So I liked that comp as well. It's been a minute for me. I need to revisit it for sure. I have to say the Sandra Bullock like ripoff attempted riff on that idea.

The Lost City, not as successful. Not as great, no. A little lame, unfortunately. Romance in the Stone, absolute classic, honestly. Craig suggested the Matrix and I think the Matrix is interesting well a couple of people mention the Matrix but I think the Matrix is most interesting

because I was thinking about Joe Penteliano's character from the first Matrix, Cipher and how much he would just be begging to join the collective. He's like, please. Only so long as they have the stakes.

They gotta have the stakes, yeah. That guy wants his red mean as soon as it's gone. What is there for him? Exactly. And last month at least, I'll just mention we got a couple several Doctor Who comps.

Dr. Who is great comp for what's going in here of course. And then Brave New World was something that came up for a lot of people. So those are just merely some of the comps that were sent our way. Surely there are plenty more. Keep them coming, licking the donut at gmail.com. We still got hundreds of emails this week. They didn't like trickle off. So thank you for your emails. They're wonderful. I would say the other one, Joe, that's been coming up a lot in the emails and also just anecdotally watching the show. Like the good place is all over here. Oh yeah. I mentioned at the top just like quickly. Yeah. I know we've talked about it before and like especially the philosophical implications of

episode two, but now that we are in full on, like, helpful Janet, get me heroin mode of this show. Like, we're really in it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's start in Paraguay. And I should say, we got an email from a listener, John, who's, I'm just going to call our men in Paraguay, who just like sort of reported earlier on the previous Minosos call when we were only on the other side of it.

And he was like, that guy sounds Colombian to me. Fun fact, because the actor is Colombian, they have decided to make that character Colombian. In the official podcast, they're like, he's Colombian, but he lives in Paraguay. They put a very specific Colombian game in the set of where he lives and stuff like that. So if you're like – and the reason they did that is because he's like, I can't do the Paraguay. It's very specific and I can't do it. And so they're like, okay, we'll make you Colombian. Let's just easy, easy, pizy do that.

But I thought that was really interesting. John, if you want to continue to give us dispatches from Paraguay, we would love to hear them. I actually heard a very similar story, Joe, recently. I was watching a Matthew Reese interview to prepare for our Beast and Me pod where he was talking about an episode of Colombo that he did early in his career. Yeah. Where he was asked to flip accents and it was simply like, but what if we just made you, you know, a man with a Welsh accent instead? Like, what if we just make this as simple for you as possible? Yeah, exactly.

Okay, so we get this extended sequence at the beginning with Manus Nos in Paraguay. We didn't get a clock. We're just here with him. He's checking radio frequencies. How did all of this work for you? Rob Mahoney as a character intro? I mean, not to be the guy who just watched Lost recently, but I can't watch these sorts of introductions anymore and not think of that very like process-oriented guy in quarantine,

sort of like methodical introduction. Yeah. I really liked it. I mean, we learn a lot about this. character with very little dialogue. I was, I mean, in that vein, I was struck by the silence of this sequence, kind of juxtaposed with the silence of the hive mind, right? Like, we see dozens of people wordlessly stocking sprout shelves, and it is like a system, right? A system in action and like fully actualized to its complete capability of what human beings are, like,

even capable of imagining in terms of their ability to work together in this context, like logistically. And then here's a guy who in his silence is just like painfully alone and quite principled in what he is willing to do to engage with these quote unquote humans, quote unquote aliens, whatever they are or not. But it was just like it was so alarming, especially coming from Carol's world where she is talking to herself, talking to Zosha, asking questions. Like she's she's even more integrated in this circumstance than he is. Exactly. This man is like well and truly alone. Here's like I think it's so interesting because Carol's like, I am so doing it on my own.

I am so independent. But as we mentioned, the sprout stocking sequence last week was like so laughable. And then you compare her, her illusion of independence to monousnos here, who is like, the, the cleverness of there's a single fly. And that fly lets him know there's organic material left into tin that he put. And he is so desperate that he will. follow the fly to the lid of the can and then lick it and we'll get to the dog food in the second. But like that lets us know so much about how he's deciding to live his life here and how fiercely independent he has decided to be. I don't know why he is weighing tape and the

locks that he has. But that seems to be one of the right. It's like, because it seems to be like 20 grams like he's weighing it. I don't know. Anyway, he's taking stock. He's got tape to put cardboard on all the windows. He's got locks because he's locking all the gates, but also breaking locks on the on the storage units, et cetera, et cetera. But leaving a polite note, leading a very polite note. He is a rule follower at his core. I just thought it was interesting because we got several emails about this, one specifically from our listener, Jennifer, about Carol versus the other unlicked that she met in episode two. And this idea, we talked about a little bit, but this idea of like rugged American individualism, is this, is this show a

critique of that is, you know, are the other unliked people from communities, cultures where they value community and more than America does or something like that. But then we meet, again, any listeners in Paraguay who want to let us know tell me, but like, I have not ever heard the phrase rugged individualists of Paraguay or Colombia for that matter. So like, let me know if I'm missing something. But like, I think how. having him be like a more extreme example of Carol just sort of undermines that idea that like we're talking about something very specifically American. There are things about that Carol that are very specifically American. But I think this idea of like, I don't want to join your zombie hoard that is infected by an alien virus.

A lot of people are like, what's wrong with Carol? I'm like, what's wrong with you that you think something's wrong with Carol? But anyway, that's fine. But so what do you think about adding Minusnos as an even more extreme example into the mix? Well, I love that it adds a complexity to that sort of balance that you're talking about, where it's almost not like rugged American individualism versus the collectivism of other nations, but there are people all around the world who are skeptical of authority, who are skeptical of specifically this very like,

I am telling you how to live your life and that I know what is best for you kind of authority. That tact is taken by, you know, dictators the world over, by drug cartels, by people offering quote unquote protections. Like, it's totally understandable to me that someone anywhere in the world could want to batten down the hatches and lock themselves into a storage facility office and say, you know what? Like, I'm not buying what you're selling. And ultimately, like, that he has, like, he's almost starving. Like, right? He is down to the dog food and the sugar packets portion of his diet.

Yeah. And yet he's still flipping over the closed plate. Like, he still wants no part of any of that because to him, clearly this sort of independence is still more valuable. Something I loved about that sequence that they talked about on the official pod was that, you know, watching him eat that dog food, it's all down to his performance. I mean, the dog food looks disgusting and we, and anyone who's ever fed a pet wet food, like, knows that it smells a very particular way that I have not fond of personally. I think I would go kibble in this circumstance. If I had the, if I had the pet food shelves at my disposal on my last food, I think I'm going kibble. Um, Viskelygan said something about how the fact that, like, they had the dog food and he's like, no, we need to make it more discuss. It needs to glisten more. And they had to like add like congealed broth to it or whatever. But, um, but it's, it's down to this guy's performance. Yeah. Uh, to make us really feel this. Uh, so Carlos Manuel Vesca, who goes by Vesca, like, his, uh, revulsion, uh, really sells it. But what I loved that they talked about on the official pod was like, there's also this stoicism to him of like, I'm just going to be. Yeah.

to do it. And that's not a show for anyone because there's literally no one there. So it's just for himself that he's like, I'm just going to do it. This is what I'm going to do. And I thought that was a really revealing interesting character moment, you know. And it's what makes him such a good counterpart potentially for Carol too, right? Like these are two people who are staunchly resisting whatever this kind of invasion or takeover is. But in his case, like being starving in principle, these are two great tastes that taste great together, right? These things do kind of come in tandem. And so the idea that he is having the stiff upper lip even for himself, I agree with you. Great character moment.

Really nice introduction. But they're really slow rolling him into the story. I mean, we see the other side of his phone conversation with Carol Cabrón and all. But ultimately, like, when is he going to get into our main action? I'm curious to see. I know. Like, there's this line that Carol has later when she's doing her investigation where she says something like, can one person do it?

Can one person reverse the hive mind epidemic? And obviously... Well, no, there's two keys and you have to turn them simultaneously. Right, right. So you need a monisnos, I'm just saying, you know? So, um, last not like, well, two things. I don't know what he's doing on the radio frequency front necessarily. It seems like he's just looking for human, like human broadcasts of some kind, right?

But then like did not want to talk to Carol. No. On the phone. So, um... Very confusing from that perspective. And then wrote Carol as Turkish question mark in his book. And I don't know. if like her bad shitty American Spanish sounded somewhat Turkish to him or whatever.

Anyway, I thought that was really funny. I think, I thought there's, I thought it was a mishearing of her last name, basically. Oh, of course. Of course. You're right. So he thought, you know, he misunderstood what she was trying to articulate because, I mean, yeah, her Spanish is wanting to say the least. That's right. That's right.

Okay. Meanwhile, back in Albuquerque. Carol's still blood spattered walking around outside the hospital. gets into a car It's crashed, it reeks, it's playing genie in a bottle And she's like A glitched out genie in a bottle Which is tough

So the only thing they talked about the official pod Is that Carol was like no Even I, a desperate person I'm not desperate enough for this car Which smells bad So she takes the cop car Not my pick What are you picking?

I mean anything else frankly Like I think in this moment you're either going for practicality, you know, the truck or the SUV or whatever's going to help you haul stuff that you need to haul, or whatever the car of your dreams is, I don't have one of those personally. But I'm not going for the cop car with 24-7 Zosha, you know, intercom access. You don't have a dream car. You don't have a car that you like... Just not a car guy. You are not a car guy.

That's true. Distinctly not a car guy. Interesting. You have like a very normal car. Okay. Interesting. See, that sounded bad. That sounded me.

like bad, you know? No, just a, sorry, okay like me. Or what was the hell an expression? I just mean you have like a normal person car, not like a, you're not like, I don't know. That's what I think of what I, I think you have like a very normal person car, which I think is a compliment. You're not like trying to impress anyone with your car. Does that make sense? You on the other hand, Alpha Romeo. I've seen you roll up. I've seen you turn heads. This is just who you are, Joe. Cherry red with a sort of like glossy finish. Yeah, absolutely. No. I also don't think I have like a dream car. Licking the Donatad Gmail.com, if you're like, what car would I, would I steal, given the chance?

I kind of like the idea of taking the cop car, though, because it's just sort of like, I don't know, it's illicit. It's illicit to get, even more illicit than just taking any old car, is it taking a cop car and driving around, you know what I mean? It also kind of fits the, like, Carol as Karen taking it upon herself to serve and protect the entire planet. Sure. You know, subtext of all this, for sure.

Okay, so she rolls up back home. There's a cleaning room here. I have some fun facts for you. Not only is a recent Emmy winner, Jeff Hiller here, and we'll talk about him in a second. Great. Love to see him. Love him and somebody somewhere. That's the real mayor of Albuquerque.

Is it really? Tim Keller. The real mayor of Albuquerque sweeping up in front of Carol's house. So they got the Albuquerque mayor. When Vince Gilligan calls the real mayor of Albuquerque, you do answer. Yeah, he's like, thanks for injecting so much money into our meeting. This man is a job creator. Yeah, absolutely.

Here's what really stood out to me in this outside the house moment. Who gave you permission to be in my house? You did when you were writing the ambulance. You sort of nodded absently. So it's a give them a damn inch. They will take a mile sort of reveal about the hive mine. What did you think about that? I mean, it was a hilarious exchange and kind of recollection of events.

But you're absolutely right. It is a give an inch take a mile situation. It's also still a talk to Carol like she's a child situation, whether it's the people outside, whether it's Zosha talking about like even later in this. episode, she's like, do you, did you like your police car? Like, do you like this new toy that you have? Yeah. There is an like an infantilization of this person who is one of the few unlicked left on the planet. And that is kind of what a parent does is like the tacit understanding of like, oh, I can do this because I am looking out for what's best for you. That's kind of the subtext all that

to me is not just like, oh, you nodded silently when you were panicked. It's like they believe so firmly and squarely in their mission. That they know what's right for her. That they know what's right, even if that is a biological imperative telling them to believe it, that there's really no wiggle room on it. I'd like to note for the record that you just used unlicked casually and perfectly in a sentence. Thank you. Welcome. Rob. Okay.

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Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. All right. Freeze Fray Mahoney. O'Carro 5 notes on the whiteboard. What would you like to highlight here before we get to the sort of other notes that she puts on the whiteboard? There's so many things. There's also so many things I wish were just a little more legible.

I agree. Like there's a bit about the commercialization of the IRL spice trade that I'm like, I really wish I could make out exactly what she's saying here. First of all, I want to say this whole whiteboard setup, very jealous. I would love to have this in my home office. I would die to have this. Come on. It's beautiful.

Like functional now the sliding whiteboards. You could do that anywhere, but the glorious wood inlay with the handle. Oh, really nice. that white caro money spends, you know, it really goes a long way. Makes a lot of people very happy. And you can see why, based on the contents of this whiteboard, I am most tickled by the fact that Carol so desperately wants to kill Rabon and is looking for any permission to do it, including from her whiteboard effectively. Rabon dies again, this time for real, but then ask Val, right? Like, am I allowed to do this?

Can I kill him? Am I allowed to do it? My favorite plot note, or kind of like, lore note that she has flagged is the Mandovia spice fruit and she's wondering is it a poison is it elixir double underlined it's got to be a love potion what else simply could it be joe definitely a love potion love this um i will add uh it just says battle of wits at one point near the sort of like cliffs of chartruse and underneath that battle of wits and then my favorite is just sort of like scrawled on the side it just says shakespeare reference yeah and it's just like i love that about carroll because she thinks she's so much smarter than the book she's writing, but she's like, I'm going to put a Shakespeare reference in it.

Nobody's going to get it because these dummies who read my book don't know Shakespeare, etc., which we will obviously get to in a second. But look, she's a literary woman. She did reread 12th night in order to prepare to write this book, so props to her. I also think we may have missed the boat, you know, licking the donut is maybe our greatest email of all time, but killer sand flea men would not have been a bad alternative. It's pretty good. Our listener, Ren wrote in about this idea of like why Carol specifically might be a person who is so resistant to the pleasant, can we give you everything you want, nature of the hive mind?

And it's because she has such disdain, partially maybe connected to the way when she has so much disdain for her readers, she is someone who has been crafting the perfect meal under a cloche for her. this is exactly what you want. You want exactly a lady who looks just like this. I know what smut you want. I know what, you know, flea men you want. I know what elixir you want, et cetera. They want to devour that space pirate, that's for sure. And so this idea of like, am I just, they're, to your infantilizing point that you keep

rightly bringing up, are they treating me like one of my list, one of my readers who I, like, think so poorly. Yes. And I thought that was really interesting. connection from our listener. I love that take. I also love the beat as Carol is kind of deciding before she, you know, goes to write her list of what she actually knows about the, uh, the hive mind here. Like she, she kind of thinks about erasing her wins of Wiccaro prep for a second. And then opts for the new whiteboard instead. And so from the perspective or you're just talking about, Joe, like,

she hates these books and she resents the people who love them. She has been miserable for who knows how long. And yet, even when the world is like kind of over, she's still clinging to a life that made her so miserable, or at least clinging to the idea that it could go back to a version of normal, I guess. But I mean, one does not simply think of the cliffs of Chartreuse every day, Rob. You have to keep those golden ideas, you know, steady. But yeah, Ren wrote, ultimately she would just be a slop consumer to be placated with slop with the hive mind fully aware of exactly what flavor of slop is most likely to please. And I was just like, yep, okay, here we go. All right, so we slide over to the new white board.

These are the beats. What I know about them. Eager to please would give me an atom bomb. Can't kill, not a fly. Can't play faves like all jerks the same. So I think she's considering herself a jerk in that moment, obviously. Trying to change me, which I think is like so key in something that I think some people are like, why wouldn't you want to join?

I'm just like, why would you let someone reprogram you? And we'll get to, of course, the conversion conversation later. and then really honest, which then turns into the sort of like can't lie moment. Again, a lot of assumptions here, kind of taking these people at their word and just kind of inferring. I mean, I don't know. I just think maybe I think they are resolute in their mission. I think there might be wiggle room around some of these things. Like, yeah, they can't kill not a fly, but they'll let almost a billion people incidentally die.

Like that feels like important context. That's true. That's great. They have all the lawyers in the hive mind so they know all the. the loopholes of of the rules, etc., etc. Then we get this interaction. Emmy winner Jeff Hiller is here in a very tight bike costume. Larry to his friends.

And they have this great back and forth. I loved this sequence. And what Carol is doing here, this is how Ray C-Horn described on the official pod is she's like, she's asking questions that she knows they know will displeaser, but she suspects are true. I suspect that Helen doesn't like my book or doesn't respect my writing. I know they don't want to tell me that because they know it will upset me, but I think it's true. So where does the rubber meet the road in terms of like, don't want to upset Carol, have to tell the truth.

And that is the sort of trap she sets for Larry here to try to figure out this particular quirk of the rules. And that's the mochi's in the whole episode. It's kind of like Carol the Scientist. It's a very different disposition from what we've seen of her, which is mostly like downing vodka and sleeping on her couch. But here she is like trying to understand more about what is it, what is in play. What can she do?

What can she learn? And everything you said makes total sense. And I think is represented in that performance. Like she's going to into this deliberately with an objective. Joe, do you feel like when she hears Helen's thoughts about the Wikaro books and especially her novel? Like to your point in what they said on the official pod, she knows on some level what she's going to hear, but there's also the confirmation of actually

hearing it. Do you think that actually hurts Carol in that moment, or do you think her expectations kind of steal her from that? I think it hurts her. And I think it was interesting. Miriam Shore, who plays Helen, did sort of like a bonus episode of the official podcast this week. And most of it was just sort of like, what a pleasure to be here. But the most I think, I thought, insightful things she said was that Helen was someone who, um, who protected Carol. Carol from being hurt, that Carol was someone who walked around so easily hurt. And so her bitterness and her bad attitude are really this sort of like protective shell. And that is Helen's job to sort of try to shield her to sort of jolly or out of bad moods or all these other things.

And so Helen saw herself as like, she's the softerhearted person, but she is Carol's first line of defense. And so she is like defenseless without Helen there. But I think Carol is for all of her bitterness for all of her cynicism, a very vulnerable person. Again, we get the conversion conversation. We get the sort of like truth serum self-tape moment, you know, where she says, like, I'm not so bad, right? Like that aspect of it. So, you know, I think she's tremendously hurt by what she hears even. Like, and you brought this up when we, when last week when we were talking about like, what if you could hear what everyone truly thinks of you and you and I were talking about what a nightmare it was.

Yes. So this is something that you sort of called last week. And so, yeah, hearing it, it's different to suspect it than to hear it, you know? So even when, like, especially I would say Helen's thoughts on, you know, the Winds of Wicaro series are not damning. Like, this is probably what Carol in her heart of hearts, at least thinks to some degree. At least it's represented that way in what she thinks of her readers. Yeah. But the novel is a different case.

And like, bitter chrysalis remains like an absolutely elite bad novel name. It is way too long for literally anyone to be writing a novel that much. But to your point about Helen as Carol's Protector, I love that line about Helen and Val had kind of talked about the novel and decided like it wouldn't hurt her career and it just would make Carol happy to publish it. And that's that infantilizing thing that you're talking about. It is for sure. And it's like that sentence and that sentiment alone is like it's such, it's such a, it is a caring thought. Right. Like there's a germ of something there that is genuinely.

and affectionate and like trying to be protective. But is protecting a person from something that they don't want to be protected from, which is their own creativity and expression and self? Like, how can you do that to someone even when you love them? And yet we do it to people we love all the time. Did you think, as I saw that some people did, that it was like incredibly emotionally manipulative for Larry to bring up Moira, she of the crazy hats,

who was, you know, like brought back to life by the Wacharo books. I actually found that really beautiful. I don't know. And like I don't know that I would consider that manipulative. It was like him finding a truth, which is that like to someone and we are all one, your book is the most important thing that has ever happened. And you're not Shakespeare.

But there is value. And I don't know. I was thinking about this in terms of like, I've been thinking about this a lot as I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to talk about Wicked for Good on House of Arr this week. Yeah. Thinking about Wicked, my experience watching the first Wicked movie was I had like a pretty bad time watching it in the press greeting. And then I went to a wide release with like an audience that loved it and it actually changed my relationship to it. Superman, a movie that I kind of liked.

And then I talked to my nephew about it and he loved it and it changed my relationship to the new Superman movie. And that's okay. Like critics are supposed to form their opinions. a vacuum. We're not exactly precisely critics. And they're like, it's okay if your relationship to a piece of art changes based on how other people feel about it. And it's not like I'm dumbing myself down or anyone's dumbing themselves down or whatever. It's just sort of like when something matters to someone, when they find an emotional resonance in it, it can like bring it out for me. That happens with when I talk to Mallory all the time. It's just like she loves things so

fiercely that it's quite infectious. So I just thought this was like a really interesting way to talk about, you know, art. Art can be art, even if you think it's not Shakespeare, it's art to someone. And I think that that's, I don't know, interesting perspective. So, I also really enjoyed it as a way that the hive mind, you know, we talked last week, Joe, about like, is the hive mind capable of creating great art? And I think there's a lot of complications in that prospect. But this is about how the hive mind understands art. And maybe, you know, it can cite, you know, portions of the book that really resonated with other people and made them tingle and all

that stuff. But ultimately, like, what it is good at at this stage in the story is not high emotional intelligence. It's, like, fact, right? Like, this woman was in this situation and your book, shitty as it might be, like, gave

her second thoughts before committing suicide. Like, that is a real thing. And to be very clear, like, more than validating the exercise of publishing or creating anything. Like, if you could create the worst book ever written and it saves something,

someone from killing themselves. Like, that is a huge net win in the grand scheme of the universe. Exactly. And so I'm like, I'm pulled by that sort of sentimentality you're talking about, which I think is very real. And what, what an work of art means to one person or a small group of people is incredibly meaningful and resonant and not something you can easily write off.

And I'm also in the hive mind's portrayal of that. Yeah. Pulled in the opposite direction of the like, let people enjoy things kind of self-validation that exists in so much like of our art and cultural moment right now. It's like a hop, skip and a jump away from like, you're being a snob because you didn't love Fantastic Four. You know, like, there's a lot of distance between these things,

but they're all kind of connected. I really agree. I am, like, very torn about it. I'm up to minds because I don't agree that we should flatten all romanticcy with Shakespeare. Like, of course I don't. You know what I mean? I think it matters that we say some things are smarter or better or whatever. But I also think it's like, yeah, you can enjoy Fantastic Four.

Yes. But like I can also say I didn't think Fantastic 4 was very good. You know, and like... It was not very good. It was not very good. You know, okay. And I wanted it to be good. Okay.

So here we get Carol visiting Zosha. She's back at the hospital. We're at the hospital three times this week. This is when we get this sort of the conversion therapy conversation, the conversion camp conversation. I will say we had a listener, Mikhail, who called this out as like a possibility. Yeah. in a previous email and then just said like the subtext has become text this week, you know, essentially.

But I, this was a stunning, I thought, interaction between Carol and Zosha. What did you make of it? I completely agree. And I think specifically the juxtaposition of these two camps, right, of this like smiling group of people who supposedly are well-meaning and have your best interests at heart and are fundamentally trying to fix you. I think that's part of the thing with Carol, too, is not just like we want to bring you into our mold.

It's as Zosha has mentioned last week, like, you are drowning, right? Like you are drowning in your own life and we have the solution. We have all the answers. Right. If you simply give everything you are over to us and never be a person ever again. Right. Yeah, where would someone like Carol have heard that before? Where would she have heard the idea that she is someone who needs to be fixed?

Such a damning thing for certainly a teenager to hear, but also not. a surprise that someone like Carol would carry it with her in every interaction that she would have for the rest of her life. And I think that like, you know, I was, I was wondering about this. Like there's, we got a lot of emails of people wondering like, why doesn't Carol have like any family outside of Helen? And she might, but she might be like completely no contact with them because they did this to her, right? And, um, and then also, I was so curious why in, you know, 2024, 2025, whenever this takes place, someone would be, maybe this is just a privileged bubble of mind, but like why someone would be, someone who's in the arts would be in the bubble, and in the closet that way. Like that's, I was just sort of like, I know people are still in the closet, obviously, but it's just sort of like, what is stopping Carol who is like, you know, beloved in the space and like this is part of it? There are many other reasons and I, and I, you know, licking the donut of Gmail.com, if you thought that was like the worst thing. me to say, but this particular trauma being something that would just make her so hesitant to let

anyone know her truth, let her wider community know her truth, I think is, you know, very important piece of information for us to have. Well, let me ask you this, I don't know if you have any more information on this front than I do, but I wonder if there's something to the idea of being a romance or a romanticist author in that. Like, that is, like, I would say a line of work that lends itself more to pseudonyms and more to, like, working names than almost any other line of fiction, certainly. Like, there is a level of removed that I think a lot of romance and romantic see authors want to have for various reasons. I wonder if there's like a, would your audience read your heterore relationship with a space pirate in your book the same way if they

knew the inner workings of your actual personal life? I don't know how protective people are of those things in that space. Yeah, I mean, my experience in the sort of like sci-fi fantasy genre space is that it is like so queer friendly. At the same point, same time, Romantici specifically right now also has a large like conservative following. You know what you mean? And so like I remember this specifically from, sorry, excuse me, book talk when like in our most recent presidential election, there was this huge schism on the book side of TikTok where there were people who were sort of like, why would we ever bring politics into talking about books and then other people were like books are politics you know so it's just like have you read a book

so like I remember this sort of like can't we just talk about our fairy smut without bringing politics into it and I think maybe some of those people would want not want to know that Carol is gay I think that is possible but I got bad news though the fairies are getting deported you know if we literalize the metaphors bad news for all of your favorite fairies it's true bad news for all your favorite fairies my favorite pol coat from this podcast guess. All right, so Carol goes into the pharmacy. I loved that. I mean, the whole heroin sequence is just like extremely funny. I don't know why she knows to look for the thio-pental sodium, perhaps because she has studied many a fictional elixir for her book. So she knows some things

about how elixir's work. Once you get into the inner workings of the spice trade, Joe, you learn a lot about recreational and medicinal. drugs. But, okay, so here's the specifics that we learn about thio-pental sodium. It doesn't say underneath truth serum. So that's not like what it's called. But induction agent for anesthesia, okay. Emergency management of seizures. Is this check off seizure, anti-seizure medication? Like, does having a syringe of thiopental sodium, could that save another millions of people dying if she, like, upsets soja again? Do you know what you mean? But how are you going to distribute it to all the millions of people.

Well, isn't stopping Zosha's seizure, stopping everyone's seizure? That's a great question. See, this is another case for Carol the scientist we need her to really dig into. We need her to yell at Zosha again, risking the fate of who knows how many people, inject her again and see what happens. This wasn't traumatic at all for her, so I'm sure she'll be right back on the case. Everyone did great. Everyone was fine.

Anything you want to say about the pharmacy or about the dosage footage that we get? I was a little I don't know I was a little underwhelmed by the dosage footage I guess You know like obviously we do get these sort of character moments And some great lines And I thought like you know Carol reading from her own book and a bad British accent

Like there's there's great stuff in there Yeah I think I was just like waiting for more of a reveal of something From any part of this I guess From Carol's dosing herself or eventually dosing Zosha It's like It's a lot of process and there's no payoff for it yet And I'm open to the idea that maybe that payoff comes in episode seven or whatever.

But for now, it's just kind of like, okay, there's this truth serum and it's been administered to two different people. And the most telling information we've got is that Carol thinks Zosha is fuckable, which we already knew. Which you already knew. I don't know that everyone already knew, but like, yes. On the official podcast, Ray Sehorne talked about filming that sequence and how she had to like film all of it because they were just like scrubbing through, like they scrub through it. But like, she had to film all of that like together.

And one thing that they cut, like one of the things that she did that they just decided to zoom through was her singing Melissa Etheridge. And I'm like, release the Etheridge cut. Please. I beg of you. I think Lisa and I'm not that bad was really a really good moment. I mean, like, why they have to make her so fuckable is, of course. And then Carol's reaction to seeing herself say that. It's almost like revelatory to like Carol can't hide from her intrusive thoughts when she has taped them for herself.

But yeah, I just thought, it's very funny, but I think you make a good point because then we get this like, we're back at the hospital again and we get this whole sort of like after the music and the elevator sequence outside. I would see just. That song has been stuck in my head. Has it? Well, it's the Christopher, it's not the Christopher Cross version, I don't think, but it's that like best that you can do a song from Arthur. And I'm like, it's just rolling up here. I don't know what it is about that bit of elevator music, but it really got me. Are you a fan of elevator music in general? Hold music? Apparently, I didn't know this about myself, but revelations abound for me and Carol both. I love this. I think do you like your cop car, as you say, as a phantilizing shirt?

How was the heroin? It's good. It was really funny. Really good. But also, I will say, I think what we learned from the pharmacy interaction, like the fact that Carol did heroin. sophomore year. It was crazy. But then he's like, it's been a while since you injected your, like, I don't know.

Like, what is Carol's? We are, we've already talked about her substance abuse and sort of like her drinking and stuff like that. So like, what is her history with drugs? Like, what is, you know, and again, we're keep getting these like hints of the darkness in her, in her past. You know, like, sophomore year is tough. So I did some heroin is like not something I would say. I don't know. No?

But... Where were you up to, sophomore year, Joe? Not doing heroin. One would hope. I was working in a movie theater. That's what I was doing. Sophomore year. I mean, that's the heroin of the soul.

Yeah, that's true. That's what guy you hooked to be in this line of work now. You've been an addict for a long time. It's true. It's true. It was the butter and the popcorn machine that did it, I think. Now you're going to see fucking Tron Aries and just like, you know, living it up. Rob, you need to give the people all the information about me going to see Tron Aries this week,

which is that I went with. some friends. We found a deserted theater. We heckled Tron Aries and it was a great time. And you told me you thought that that was a great idea. I do think it's a great idea. But I am a fellow movie sicko, as are you. I also have a bit of breaking news for you, which is they were all deserted theaters. You could have gone to any of them for Tron Ares. Actually, that's a lie. There were four people in our theater. But they were having a great time. But they were having a really. They were also talking through it. So the point is we were not disturbing anyone. And our point was to like, it was I went with the same person I saw Morbius with. And we all. also heckled Morbius in a deserted theater. So I just think that like this is how you should consume a Jared Leto film. That's my personal opinion. There's no doubt. We did talk, Joe, we, you know, we talked a lot about the hive mind as potential AI. Yeah.

And I think this heroin bit, which is really just kind of cover for her to get the needles, which is, I think, pretty clever on Carol's part. Absolutely. It reminded me we didn't talk enough about ultimately the, the hive mind here as like dark web concierge. Like the heroines eight miles away. There is a version. You know, there's a group of emailers who are telling us about they want to race cars, they want to play golf courses.

There is a, you know, an unheard majority out there who have some really deep dark shit they want to do. But I'm not inviting it. I'm just saying there is a brand of stuff that's out there and possibilities in this universe that people don't even want to touch in polite company. I suggest you email licking the donut, D-O-U-G-H-N-U-T with all of your dark web fantasies. Dark web fantasies. I'm sure that person will love to have those in addition to all the other pluribus emails they've been getting. But before we go out of the hospital, though, I want to ask

you about one thing. This like final sequence we get with Zosha and Carol in the hospital room where Zosha is telling her like, we have been you, but you haven't been us. And like, we know what it's like to be truly alone and to suffer. I mean, this, this sequence like really caught me. I think, tell me first of all in a sort of like weaponized empathy kind of way and also made me wonder like is that something that the hive mind is even capable of like this this group's emotional intelligence has been so spare to this point like there's a there's a lot they miss in context in terms of the actual humanity behind the words and expressions people have for one like could they could could a hive mind even practice the kind of understanding that it claims to hold over what it means

to be alone. Is that something that they could even comprehend? I would argue no. And I would, you know, it's the same, I think that's the very same question we're asking about, like, can they create art? There is just something like deeply human that the flattening of, you know, their experience cannot, they don't have access to that. But will, can they get there? Well, will Zosha, like, what happens here at the end of this episode is extremely traumatic for Zosha, obviously. Yes. And for the people, I mean, it's a very scary sequence.

Carol screaming, like, backup, I have agency, but like not feeling confident that, like, this is a risk she's taking, right? Yeah, exactly. Something on a, something that they said on the official pot, so the person who comes through with the sort of machine to help Zosia at the very end of the episode, her name is Rosa Estrada. and this is the woman who with that self-same machine

saved Bob Odenkirk's life on the set of Better Callsall if folks don't know Bob Odenkirk had a very serious heart attack on the side of Better Call Saul. Ray Seahorn was there and this woman Rosa Estrada and I think like one of the ADs or something like that like did chest compressions

and worked on Bob and brought him back but it was very touch and go in that moment so they wanted to like bring this woman in to like give her this moment. But they were also talking about how they want to be very sensitive to Ray in filming this sequence and also when she was doing chest compressions

on Helen that like this is something that this person, a very traumatic thing that this person went through with a beloved co-star Bob Odencirk. And so I thought that was really I thought Rayy Horan's performances are always really good but like her terror and guilt

and all the things that she's feeling and frustration of not even getting the answer, going through all of that and not even getting the answer, but coming close, seemingly coming close, I thought was like really upsetting. I take your point that like we did all this and we didn't get the information. Which is fine, like from a plot perspective,

just from the like condensing of an individual episode. Yeah, that makes sense. Was this an episode of TV or was this part of a larger project? It felt like more like part of a larger project. I thought it was really stunning. They talked about how, everyone in the crowd is crying and they had to use like vitamin E oil on their faces or whatever because it was like crying at a rate that like couldn't sustain as a human but and then like they're not

smiling so like to have this crowd just like standing around her not smiling very scary very scary so and again like listening to her directives right when carol wants them to step back they step back when she wants them to let go they let go but also sort of the like wall of sound as they're kind of chanting to her, which is not as you alluded to. Yeah, the police Carol. And you talked about this in an earlier episode, Joe, where it's like, it can't be fully in unison because there's kind of a weird, uncanny balance to all that. And so it ends up as it's just like overwhelming wave of sound and emotion and moment. And Racierhorn delivers as she always delivers. Anything else do you want to say about this sequence or the episode? Here's what I will say.

We didn't spend as much time as I would, I probably should have talking about Jeff Hiller's performance in this episode. But last week we had talked about like all the celebrity camos we would like to see and like we got some good suggestions. And I do think it's a really fun idea. But like thinking about Robert Bailey Jr. who showed up as the DHL delivery guy last week and Jeff Hiller showing up here like maybe I would actually prefer this. Let's find these like people who are, you know, Jeff didn't have his Emmy when they cast him in this. And I think before he won his Emmy, fewer people knew who he was and people still might not know and they should who Jeff Hiller is. but like these people who have been around and doing great work.

And let's just like let them show up and do like a gangbuster scene in an episode of Plyuribus. You know what I mean? Completely. I think like the track record is there too for Gilligan in terms of you've seen what he can do with like Michael McKean. You know, it's like an actor of a certain repute and like success. And it's like if you just want to come play for a little while, like we'll give you really fun and interesting stuff to do. We'll put you at this table opposite Ray Seahorn. and you get to be kind of disarming and charming

and also incredibly eerie and creepy at the same time. It's like there's a lot for, I think, character actors specifically to work with on a show like this that could be really fun for a lot of people. And like how excited will be if like Larry, Jeff Hiller comes back in season, you know, and we're like, oh, like Larry's here again.

Like he doesn't have to become a main character, but it'll like be fun to see these people again. They did talk on the official pod about like this idea that they, that Larry's been in that bike uniform like since the joining hasn't changed it. I don't know if that would smell great. Do the unlit shower? That's a great question.

They said... I'm sorry, do the hive mind shower. I hope the unlit shower. Carol, I don't know. Sometimes she doesn't. That this idea that they have no vanity, right? So like they don't care what they look like unless they're trying to like appeal directly to Carol, I guess.

But I have a question. Again, I'm just curious if they're all going to eventually wind up in like matching jumpsuits or something like that. I don't know. So we'll see how the hive mine continues to hive. Anything else you want to talk about? I will say if that's what ultimately happens, it might be appealing to Carol, who has been a leisure wear icon to this point. I was having a conversation with our guy, Kai Grady at the office, who pointed out her, to this point, several full body matching sweatsuits that she has in incredible colors. And it's like, maybe if you just give Carol a nice pair of sweat, she would be down for all this.

They just don't know the way to her heart ultimately. What should be under the cloche is some nice leisure wear. I love that. Absolutely. That's a great. That's a classic Kai Grady observation. Thank you to everyone for listening to this podcast. Looking at the Donat at Gmail.com, please keep your emails coming.

I know I keep saying there's a lot of them, but I do love reading them. So please keep sending them. Thank you to Donnie Beecham for his continued heroic Friday morning turnaround on. on these pods. Always. Like really, really good. And to Justin Stales,

of course, for his work on the feed. Thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Joe. No thanks, I guess, to pigeons. Rob still considers you his enemy. Then get lost. They're a literal vermin.

We'll see you next week. Bye. Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistants' assistants

Switch you to MintMobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

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