The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Pluribus’ Episode 5: The Specificity of Grief (and Milk Slurping) | Prestige TV | The Ringer

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

Jo and Rob are back for Episode 5 of Apple TV’s ‘Pluribus.' (00:00) Intro (06:40) Listener emails (15:01) We start in the hospital… (18:50) Evacuating from the hospital (23:36) The different sides of Carol (26:02) The high budget’s limitations (28:39) The wolves and grief (36:57) The return to Sprouts (44:33) Sports corner Email us! [e-mail] or [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Prestige TV Podcast and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Ashleigh Smith Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. It's Mr. Burger Cabob himself, Rob Mahoney. How are you doing? You know what? I don't want any associations with mystery meat after this week. You know, if it's ground and unrecognizable, I simply don't want to be associated with it. We're pretty nervous about it. We're pretty nervous about it. This episode's titled Got Milk, Episode 5. A plurvis, we should say. That's the show we're talking about. We are recording this a little early. We're recording this on Monday, the Monday before the Thanksgiving holiday just to get ahead of some of our stuff. So we won't have the usual, like, checking in with the official podcast, checking in to see

what Reddit thinks of this episode, et cetera, et cetera. This is just unadulterated Rob and Joanna, our thoughts only. Also, I mean, hopefully you've already noticed by the time you're listening to this, but the episode itself, the polar-bist episode itself, dropped a little early on Apple to get in front of the Thanksgiving holiday. So Rob suggested that you listen to this podcast while you're driving to be a with your families on Thanksgiving. That was...

Or in place of as well. You know, if you need an escape, we are happy to provide that for you. And you could even say, I mean, you just urgently need to listen to your favorite podcast about that show you watched last night rather than spend time

with your frustrating loved ones. You're like, it's, it's Rob and Joanna. It's a must listen. We got to. Got Milk is the name of the episode. Written by Ariel Levine and directed by Gordon Smith.

Rob Mahoney Joanna Robinson We've talked about patience inside of a Vince Gilligan episode That was not very patient of me I gotta say I jumped the gun We talked about unusual formatting inside of Vince Gilligan

episode What did you think of this episode In which Carol is alone for much of the runtime? You know what I loved it? Did you tell me? I think this was my favorite episode since the pilot.

Since the pilot, okay. Tell me why. Some of that is like the way that it sort of brings the personal stakes for Carol and the global stakes for Carol into very direct conversation. I thought it was very elegantly done. I was all about it. You know, the grief has been there for Carol every single episode to date. I think your mileage on that may vary. There's certainly been viewers who have been frustrated by that character kind of being stuck in place in her morning spinning her wheels.

I haven't had that experience necessarily. It's been eight. eight days we should remind everyone. But in the light of this episode, it feels very much like so many of her like big plans to save the world felt like ways to not deal with the shit that was right in front of her, I guess,

in her backyard, however you want to define it. And I thought this episode was a great reminder, too, of even if she is incredibly successful and everything she sets out to do, there's no way for Carol to get her world back. And I thought it was just very well staged within the confines of this episode. Meaning get Helen back.

Exactly. Whatever happens to the rest of the world, like her existence, her little bubble is going to be changed forever. That's really smart and sad, Rob. I'm sorry? On both. That's classic Rob Mahoney. Smart yet sad. Listen, I thought this episode is really good.

So this show is a test of Racy Horn as like a can you hold a show where you're, most of the show. And then this episode is, can you hold an entire episode where you are most of the episode? We get a little Lakshmi, we get a little, a few hospital workers in the beginning of the episode,

we get the voice of Patrick Fabian from, among many other things, Better Call Saul. And I was hugely delighted because I'm a huge Howard Hamlin fan, so I was really excited. Patrick Fabian, the voice on the other side of the phone inside this episode with a recording that we hear a frustrating number of times.

A lot. And there's a couple drones also involved in the making of this episode. But mostly this is our Carol holding down the fort and holding our attention herself. And I feel like very few people can pull this off. And as you said, your mileage may vary on this show. You know, some people are living it. Some people are not. That's fine.

That's great. I was really impressed by what they were able to do with this episode. It's not a shock, but like the combination of Ray Sehorne's incredibly varied performance styles, which can be all over the map emotionally in a really exciting way. And also just the patient filmmaking that comes with these sorts of shows in Plyrobus overall. You know, just like the very slow developing rise and tangle of a drone wrapping itself around a light post, that's cinema to me, baby. You know, I'll watch that every day of the week.

That was just genuinely one of the funniest things I've ever seen. The physical comedy from the drones, Joe. I just was not prepared for how much I was going to love it. The first one was like funny enough. The first like taking the mailer away was funny. But the trash bag wrapped around the light post and the drone like continuing to were. Like I was just trying to imagine them filming that and like how much fun hopefully they were having. Oh, I hope.

It was really, really good. also a lot of Kloche-based comedy. The Kloche came back in full effect. Can one recycle a Kloche? This is a question Carol would like to ask all of you at home. On the Ask All of You at Home, we have a little email section I would like to get to before we sort of like get into the episode itself. And then as promised last week, we are going to do like a sports corner section at the end of the podcast. Wow.

Rounding up some of your sports questions and comments and concerns that you all have. It really is Thanksgiving week, Joe. Like, I just, I have so much, there's such a bounty for me to get in personally as the, you know, the resident sportsmen. Although I don't want to take it away from you. Maybe you, you have some sports, some sportsmen takes that I would love to hear. But is it, aren't you, I mean, I don't want to, you are the resident sportsman without question. I mean, professionally speaking, yes. But you know, I know you know ball, you know basketball.

Yes. But do you know all sports? No, absolutely not. Nor will I pretend to, but also maybe I'll pretend to. The golfers are not represented by you on this podcast. No, they're not. This episode is brought to you by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli?

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since 1905. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie.

I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have what? Is this table would? I think it's laminate. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. First and foremost, I, Joanna Robinson said that I thought Minisos was weighing tape and locks, when in fact those are just prices on the locks. He is locks and tape for sale. Of course,

he wanted a storage unit. I apologize. We got many emails about that. One email, I'm not going to apologize this for. I just think someone misapprehended us and I wanted to make sure that we make it clear. Yes. Someone was, someone thought we were saying the phrase rugged American individualism like unironically

or without sort of questioning that as a concept. I just want to make it very clear that Rob and I do not think that rugged American individualism is like a stated fact or makes Americans more different or more exceptional than anyone else on the planet that is not our POV. But if we said it without clarifying that, let me just clarify it in this more for you.

To those people, welcome to the show. We're honestly happy to have you. But yeah, this is a, I would say that's not part of the state admission, you know, endorsing the quote unquote rugged individualism of America. That's not the vibe from Robert Juetta, especially not on Thanksgiving. Okay, Matt, we got an email for Matt. Matt is the owner of licking the donut at gmail.com. D-O-U-G-H-N-U-T. Rob, are you excited to see this? This was thrilling.

I've never had this before. You know, often when we've tried to locate the owners of previous email addresses that we have coveted, we've had no such luck, the fact that Matt just reached out, and not only that was nice enough to forward to us, several emails that had wound up in his inbox. I mean, what a gracious guest, you know? we can all lick the donuts together. He also said he loved the show, which he might have just been saying.

I don't know. It's nice either way. Thanks for the emails. Thanks for manning the fort over on licking the donut spelled D-O-U-G-H-N-U-T at D-Mil.com. You can reach us, of course, looking the donut spelled the rugged American individualistic way at D-O-N-U-T-Hul.com. Maybe this is a red flag about me. I do prefer it that way. I do prefer D-O-N-U-T, just for simplicity's sake.

Well, we've never talked about donuts. I don't think, Rob, what's your, do you have like a favorite kind of donut? It's one of my great vices, to be honest with you. I am a donut any hour of the day kind of person, but I am more on the traditional end of the spectrum versus very frou-frew sort of offerings. Like a classic glaze or something. Classic glaze, the simpler, the better. An apple fritter might be the goat, but, you know, if you can't find it at a random mom-and-pop donut shop, I almost don't want it. I'm the other side where I really only like very specifically like a filled like very bougy donut and those probably do need to be spelled D-O-U-G-H-N-U-T. So, you know, it takes all kinds. On the sort of what would you do front, we got an email from listener Aaron who is a huge zillow devotee just talking about sort of building getting the hive mind to build a dream house for him.

So I just want to ask you, Rob, if you could get the hive mind to build you a dream house somewhere, A, what style, architectural style are you going for? And B, where are you going to be? Not to evade the question, Joe, but this is where we're edging from like, you're cooking me a nice meal into indentured servitude. Like when they're doing like heavy physical labor. They're so happy to make you happy, Rob. Making you happy would make them happy. It's not about them, though. It's about me.

And I am uncomfortable with some, with a group of people doing that much. That's your rugged American individualism. It's true. You know what? I'm just trying to be self-sufficient out here. So I'm happy to co-opt, like take over. An existing house. You know, I'm going to have to do some scouting for myself.

I'm going to have to do some deep zillowing. Okay. Listen, we'll be back with Rob's. Yes. First, my first three things, I would love something kind of cliffside. You know, I don't know that I want to live in like, you know, New England, per se. But I think, you know, Northern California cliffs honestly would be very appealing for me. Rob, we might differ on donuts, but this is where we are aligned because I was going to say,

I haven't, I need to figure out the exact one. Maybe that's creepy. But there are some houses in Big Sur that are just like right on the cliffs and are like almost entirely window. And I'm like, that's, that's the vibe. The Big Sur cliff house. Great. Well, let's move in next door. cliffside in Northern California and we'll split the donuts of the world sounds good to me. Honestly, Joe, what better way to greet the kind of apocalypse than to stare out into the dark void of the ocean with Florida ceiling windows on a daily basis?

Exactly. Love that. Love it for us. Okay. Ben asked if we thought it was realistic for a successful author to hate her genre and or fandom as much as Carol does. Ben, yes, unfortunately. We love what we do and we love our listeners. That is not my experience. Yeah, if you love the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Joanna hates you. This is just a fact. But we, but I know authors who work in genres

that they hate personally. And you, you know, you hear this all the time from like people who work in the film and television industry and wind up making the kind of shows and movies that they don't, that they don't really respect. So like, yes, absolutely. This happens all the time. money is money and you know people start out with big dreams and then sometimes they settle for pirate romanticie novels you know it happens to the best of us

but I think part of it is what you just described Joe which is the way it sort of takes over your life that you might not have expected or wanted it's like the thing you did for money once and then all of a sudden 15 years later this is who you are I think it's natural for some resentment to come from that and it's just kind of wrongly pointed at the audience

versus I don't know yourself your industry, whatever else deserves that actual credit. Absolutely. Carol's, yeah, her animosity towards her readers is particularly dispiriting. All right. And then I'm like, I will just say we keep getting emails from people saying like, what would I do? This feeds nicely into sort of like another TV show comp, but what would I do? And then sort of talking themselves out of it as they think through some of the scenarios that you've been raising, Rob, which is like, would you really enjoy that activity if you were just surrounded by. zombies pretending to say play golf with you or whatever the case.

Again, we'll get to the golfers eventually. That brings me to just like a couple other show comps that I want to mention that I haven't yet. And the main one is we got many emails about a specific Twilight Zone episode, which is called A Nice Place to Visit. And it's all about this person who goes to what they think is heaven and they get everything served to them all the time and it takes the joy out of it and then they find out this is the bad place actually there in hell.

That's a great Eleanor on your part, Joe. It just really nailed it. Thanks so much. So that is, you know, that idea that you've been talking about, which is like if you get everything you want but you don't have to work for it, is it really enjoyable. Also, a listener wrote in about another Twilight Zone episode, third from the sun, and pointed out that the main character in that episode's last name is Sturka, the same. as Carol.

So that is an, I did go read the description. I haven't seen that episode. I guess a very famous Twilight Zone episode. I did go read the Wikipedia page, which does have the twist of the episode in it. So if you maybe want to watch Third from the Sun without any information, don't read anything about it. But if you just want to read the summary, that exists for you. And it might be enlightening to think about that episode in the context of the show.

Or if you want to watch Third Rock from the Sun without any information, I wouldn't dissuade you from doing that either. Just a lovely way to spend your holiday weekend. Joseph Gordon Levitt is here for you if you want to do that. Absolutely. And then Rick and Morty, the unity in Rick and Morty, which we have failed to mention, but a lot of people wanted to make sure that we did. Anything else you want to get into, Rob, specifically, before we just go through the episode.

Let's do it. All right. We start in the hospital. We start with the sound of slurping. I really meant to mention last week that I thought it was really weird that Zosia was drinking out of a carton of milk and I didn't. And then I saw the title of this week's episode and I was like, uh-oh, I should have, I really should have brought that up.

In retrospect, all the milk in the hospital, especially from just like some grenade shrapnel or whatever, I would never anticipate you would need milk in such an occasion. And also, you know, maybe loading all the dead bodies into a Middle Eastern dairy truck should have tipped us off a little bit too. But that was early enough in the process. I think we're at least somewhat excused. Wow, literally just put that together now. Okay. So, I mean, are we agreed? Let's, I mean...

Let's just get to it. It's definitely human bodies, right? It would be shocking if it's not. There's literally nothing else it could be that would cause a human to make the face that Carol makes when she picks up the sheet at the end of the episode, right? Well, what if it's like penguins? Oh, penguins? What if it's an adorable animal that's like, why is this in this meat locker? I was thinking it would have to be, like, domesticated animals.

You know what I mean? Like dead pets. Well, it's bummer. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Okay, let's go back to the hospital. That's a bummer. The happier outcome is it's definitely people. It's just people.

Don't worry about it. Soiling green is people and this mysterious white powder may also be people. Carol gets a call from Lakshmi. Lakshmi is as Perjush. Fed up with Carol. Yep. Done. You made my son cry.

How dare you? Not your son, but okay. Exactly. But everyone's behaving unusually towards Carol, right? They're avoiding eye contact. They're hurriedly rushing away from her. She takes a snooze. The entire place evacuates.

We watch the evacuation, and then she wakes up Carol all alone. What did you want to say about this sequence here? As far as the staging of the Exodus itself, I love the slowly building like Gregorian chant that's happening in the background. It's just really, really lovely. But also, like, I think this is setting the stage for what ultimately for me was a very funny episode. And the sort of, like, terse standoffish nature of everyone towards Carol, I just found to be really funny. Like, you know, the hive mind experiencing indignation for basically the first time as a collective.

We're all learning together, including how to hate Carol, apparently. I mean, this is, this is, we talked about this the previous episode, this idea of emotional intelligence and the hive mind learning. So this idea, I was kind of sad about it. Because to a certain degree, I'm anti-high of mind in general, and I would like to free the people of Earth. And I'm with you, Carol. See, I thought after this episode, you might be pro. You know, the whole instant people approach, you know, it speaks to somebody, but I hope it's not us. Cream of meat.

Absolutely not. I didn't think that through. I'm sorry. Okay, anyway, the idea that there's an innocence that's been shattered for them is sort of the sense. you get, right? That they're like, greet her with happiness and openness. And then she, quote, unquote, betrayed them if you, if you, I mean, I think she's fighting for her liberty, but whatever, however you care to characterize it. And they're forever, all of them forever changed by that. What do you, what do you make of that progression? I mean, it's, if we take the hive mind as this

sort of nation, species wide baby that has been dropped on planet Earth, like it has to learn how to do this stuff. It has to learn how to feel the full range of the emotional spectrum, because basically the very first thing we learned about the hive mind is does not deal well with any sudden outburst of any kind of emotion whatsoever. And so the only way to emotional intelligence is to experience a little bit of it. Is to learn. We get the evacuation from the hospital. How did this look for you?

What did you think about this? Really great. I thought again, really well executed in terms of the filmmaking. It also made me wonder like where are we taking all of these patients who are in critical care? Like there are patients at hospitals who simply cannot be moved for a variety of reasons. We don't spend a lot of time

fussing over the details of all that. We just see people getting wheeled into different places, put into wheelchairs, put on buses, stepping off, and we just kind of like assume. There are, you know, ambulances and fire trucks. For sure. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely so. But yeah, it made me

kind of just start to wrestle with some of the logistical questions that come with like, where do you put and move all these people? Right. And then we also got an email from Julia that I wanted to read. That I thought was really interesting, Joe. And this is what Julia wrote. She wrote, I've been undergoing cancer treatment for a year, and I'm wondering if this new hive mind would consider me not an efficient use of resources. I wonder what they're doing for people like me that are not terminally ill, but still take a lot of resources to keep alive.

And what are they doing for the terminally ill people? I know they mentioned they're keeping alive people who are withdrawing from drug use, but some of those people might live and become productive members of society. But some might have no chance to live and no chance of becoming productive members of society at all. I wonder about the Darwinism of it, she wrote. And I thought this was a really terrific email and one that falls right in line with the themes of the show in the episode specifically of like, what is it that happens when you turn humanity into an efficiency engine? And how does that warp the way we start to look at each other or just kind of part of our collective in the process? Yeah, an efficiency engine. And as we are assuming also like the energy to keep that efficiency engine going. I think it's a great question.

And that email, and thanks so much for that email, it brought up conversations we had covering the last season of The Last of Us and the idea of the social contract, right? Like once you start, once you build a society, you build walls, you have rules, you have laws, you have government. The agreement that you make is that we enter into this contract knowing that we will care for the more vulnerable among us. 100%. Right? That that's the point of joining together in society rather than going it alone out in the wilderness. And so that is something that we accept as true of our society, right? That like the role of society is to protect the vulnerable. Is that how the hive mind thinks, though?

They won't actively kill, but like what is their attitude towards the vulnerable? Given their sort of like their idea of themselves that they are caring. individuals, I feel like they would support and care for everyone. But I don't know the answer, especially given the sort of like people mill aspect of what we're encountering in this, inside of this episode. I think part of the reason that the hive mind kind of tilts from caring into a like toxic positivity is that it's not just caring, it's caring and optimizing. And when those instincts come into direct conflict, like,

with, for example, the terminally ill or the people who need a lot of life support to stay healthy. Yeah. Like, this is a collective being that is shutting down the power in every city and every corner that doesn't absolutely require it.

And when they get to decide what absolutely requires and what doesn't, I feel like at that point, you're just optimizing out all emotion, all of our imperfections, all of what fundamentally makes us human, to be honest. Yeah, the idea of, like, exceptions and,

And, you know, all that sort of stuff. That there isn't just like one rule for everyone. I don't know. There should be, I don't know. It's complicated. We don't know the answer. We don't even know what the powder is for certain. So, you know what?

We don't. This is a big, complicated conversation we're delving into without powder level detail yet. It's true. It's true. But I do think it's interesting. Like, we're constantly getting emails from listeners who are like, is Carol the antagonist? The hive mind seems pretty chill. All the sort of stuff like that.

And on the one hand, that would surprise me more. Weren't for the fact that I feel like every day there are people who are just sort of like stumping for AI in general in a way that like feels very like, just chill out, calm down, let it wash over you in a way that like, you know, worries me. So it feels very of a piece of a part of human nature to just be sort of like what's the most frictionless existence that I can have. And, yeah, what's the most comfortable? Ironically, Joe, I think... That's why I like Carol. Yeah. She's like, I, you know, I will let you restock the sprouts.

I'm not licking cans out of trash cans like Minuzos. But, you know, she's like, fuck your, fuck your comfort. I don't want it. Yes. I really appreciate how flawed she is. And frankly, how, like, outwardly unlikable the show wants her to be. Like, even putting her in the situation in this episode where she's sending out these video dispatches to the other unlicked.

I mean, at least by the end of the episode, she realizes maybe I should do take two on this thing because my tone is like not ideal in terms of the execution. But like she comes across as just like the most obnoxious like no at all asshole who is only right like a fraction of the time. And that fraction is granted very important. But overall like not not the affect you want to adopt with people you're trying to convince of literally anything. Yeah.

Once again, I am unfortunately feeling like really, really, really. relating to count. No, not. I mean, I would not. I don't think I would send out a video like this. No, of course not. And I wouldn't even bother to hide the booze. I don't know who she thinks she's kidding. But that excitement she gets when she's like, I think I figured it out. Sure. I recognize that high from like, not in like a know-it-all space, but just sort of like, I think I've figured out. Yeah. I think my theory about this TV show is right or whatever. And then it's often wrong, but I get really excited about it anyway. So the enthusiasm and the sort of like, she's like, I know, I'll use the pH strips that I use on my hot tub. Like, there she is

innovating and I was really proud of her for that. So I think she felt the same way about her drug experiment last week. You know what I mean? She's just sort of like keeping herself intellectually engaged to a certain degree and feeling like she's making progress towards something. But then she's just sending these dispatches out into the void and who knows, you know, what's happening to them. But it's nice to see those sides of Carol. It was nice to see last week, like, the relief on her face in realizing maybe there is a way out of all this. Maybe there is a way to kind of fix the world. And here, like, you're right, that enthusiasm, that excitement, like, that's a place we want to see

Carol. It's just kind of what comes as the chaser to the excitement, which is, like, again, just a little more edge than I would like, personally. No, you know, emotional intelligence, no social awareness. She really needed Helen as her translator, and she does not have that anymore. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity,

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Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Because this show had such a high budget in previous episodes, we've talked about places where we could definitely see where the money was, where the money went. I think I know where you're going already, Joe. Okay. Is it to the top of the Cron Plaza Hotel? In this episode, I'm asking, where's the money?

Because they green screen Ray Seahorn on top of this building in a way that I just don't understand. I understand why we need digital effects to make Albuquerque look deserted. Sure. That I understand. But I don't understand why we can't shoot this woman on top of a building. in a way that looks more convincing than what we got in this episode. Any thoughts on that, Romahoney?

It was very much in the tradition of like Tommy Weizzo in the room. Like those rooftop shots was kind of the vibe. Yeah. What's confusing though is because when that shot zooms out and you just see Carol on top of the building

at a distance within the context of a very empty city, I thought that stuff looked pretty good. But anything up close was kind of a disaster. That is not a $15 million shot right there. No, it was bizarre. though she looked suitably like winded and distraught and then defiant so good job for her anything you want to say I know you already gave Carol a review on her performance on camera here

you know a couple more takes soften the tone smile more whatever you want to say these were not these were not my notes for the record anything you want to say about her specific language that she uses or anything like that. Oh, just welcome to the podcast, Carol. You know, she, she is also diving into the terminology debate. Are these the afflicted people? The afflicted people. Are they the others? She seems to settle on survivors for herself and the rest of the unliked, which I don't mind, frankly, although it does kind of like jab a knife into the side of the theory that any other human being can be saved if they are the survivors of this thing that would indicate that everyone else is already

kind of cooked. I hope that's not the case for everyone involved. Because like, if you you're a survivor and everyone else is afflicted, and then you cure the disease, then they can also survive the disease, right? That's fair. So, yes, I was so glad that Carol entered the nomenclature debate. I'm still sticking with the unlipped, even though we got an email from a listener who says we say licked too many times in this podcast. I say, maybe not enough, honestly.

Blame Vince Gilligan, frankly. Like, this is not our fault. In Carol's investigation, her dispatches from the couch, et cetera, et cetera, we also get this storyline with the wolves. The literal wolves are at her door. They're going through the trash and they're trying to dig up Helen's body. And we've had listeners right in before about the idea that we're watching Carol go through stages of grief. But I thought that was pertinent. I don't know that we've discussed it that much.

And I thought it was pertinent to revisit here. Our listener, Ben, wrote in to say, when you lose someone, you are deeply in love, you're deeply in love with unexpectedly. The world really feels like the world of pluribus. Life goes on for everyone else, but everything has changed for you. Everyone you interact with doesn't feel quite real.

None of their attempts to make you happy or ever quite right. And people's sympathy never quite feels earnest. And I thought that was really resonant with what we see of Carol inside this episode. The idea that Carol's been sleeping on the couch because she can't bear to sleep in the bed where she and Helen slept before. The, you know, she accepted help and burying Helen, but now she will put the paving stones down herself and she will, you know, paint this beautiful little like headstone, like, memorial thing for Helen on, on the. on the grave. So keeping, the show's been doing a good job

keeping Helen quite present in all of these episodes, but just like remembering that it has been eight days since this woman lost who was sadly the one person that she felt close to

in this world. So she can't even pretend the way that Lakshmi is pretending. Right. And guess what she's, Carol's not over it. And that's as it should be. So, you know.

Rightly so. I mean, and look, Yeah. This is where you have to be very careful with your metaphors, because if you don't put your trauma to rest properly in your backyard, the wolves will come around and dig it all up for you and force you to confront it. Metaphors are tricky that way. They really are. Also, were they wolves?

I say this is... The close caption said wolves. So that's what I'm going with. I mean, with all due respect, they're a little runty. Yeah. Well, they're not dire wolves, wrong. But they're not even like gray wolves. Like, they're not even like a properly sized wolf. They look to me like very well-trained show huskies. That's what they look like to me.

When have you ever encountered a wolf? Well, I've just seen diagrams, you know? I've had zoo books before. I've watched the gray starring Liam Mason. Of course. I'm saying this is smaller than a wolf, bigger than a coyote, firmly in just like a wild dog range. At first I thought they might be coyotes just based on like how light their coloring was.

Yes. But again, the close captioning said wolves. So, um, I'm going to go with close captioning until, listen, Licking the Donut at gmail.com, or if you prefer not to, press D.GV. Spotify.com if you're a wolf expert. If you're George R. Martin, listening from New Mexico, you're a wolf sanctuary in New Mexico and you would like to weigh in on these, on these size of these wolves. Let us know. Wait, he has a wolf sanctuary? Yeah, you didn't know that. Oh, my God. Incredible. Honestly, I think we just found the source of these wolves.

They might have borrowed them from George, honestly. They're just next door in New York. Mexico, so it's fine. Yeah. Absolutely has to. I think overall, though, Joe, this sequence of Carol fetching the tile and constructing this like protection for Helen, who, as you already said, like, we've talked in previous episodes about Helen being Carol's protector in many aspects of their lives and her kind of, you know, having her moment to shield her loved one, like, that's a really powerful thing. It's also the sort of thing where the hive mind can swoop in and restock sprouts in five minutes, but it takes Carol all day to do this. And it kind of speaks to, again, this idea of, like, why this collective society for all its efficiencies

can never do what Carol does in this one day of, like, physical manual labor. And the reason is because it's hard, right? Like, because it is arduous for her is what makes it meaningful. Yes. And because she's honoring Helen in a way that's, like, so personal and so specific to her and to them. And it turns out that Carol can paint. And she paints this beautiful grave, as you mentioned. And, like, there's also something, too, to tie it back into last week where Zosha is claiming that the hive mind has felt everything that Carol can feel. We talked about that a little bit about how, like, familiar they are with those feelings. I just think, like, a moment like this dispels that so perfectly, uh, because the hive mind has

a collective human experience, but it really is the version that has, like, been a bunch of people who are ground down into powder and then put in water and then they assume that all the component parts are there. They are not there with the level of specificity and beauty that you get into scene, which was, I just thought one of the most gorgeous things we've seen on pleuribus so far. The shot of her sort of standing next to the car with the sun behind her was breathtakingly beautiful. Really, really good. Yeah, it's so specific to someone. This is very specific grief.

There are similarities inside of grief, but then there's also the specificity of Helen was my one person or her. Helen knew these specific things about me that maybe other people don't know or I am in no contact with my family so this that the other thing or you know what whatever the case may be it is something that it should be shared with other people you should talk about your grief when you're upset or else again as Rob mentioned the wolves might come calling but there's always going to be a part of it inside of you that no one else can know about. And that is as it should be. That is part of what we consider being human.

Yes. So, yeah. I really agree. It's like, it's, I'm almost, I'm with Carol often and I'm with, like, I would be angry. If the hive mind told me they could feel what I feel. Yes. If I'm dealing with a very specific grief of losing Helen, you know? Completely.

I think anytime any human being is told some version of that, like, I know, exactly what you're going through. There is that kind of reflexive like, what are you talking about? But you're right, there are like universal human truths of the way that we process and feel things and go through things. And obviously, just markers

in life that we all experience in one way or another. But you nailed it, Jill. Like, the specificity is what makes it yours. And it's what makes your life and experience totally singular. And to pretend that we can just sand down the edges of that so we can all drive very efficiently down the highway together, I just think really misses the point

of the human experience in a way that clearly Carol is trying to fight for. I also think having the touch of her like painting this marker, we don't, you know, there was an orchid on the grave, right? And then she's replaced up this painted orchid. And we, as far as I know, we don't know why orchids are beautiful, whatever, but like maybe they're specifically special to Helen in some way. But I just don't trust that the hive might, if you said, it's like similar to like feeding a prompted AI. If you ask the hive mind, can you make me a marker for Helen's grave?

Would they know to do that specifically, even with access to all of Helen's memories? And then they wouldn't have sat down and done the act of expression of mixing the paint to get the right shade of purple to put the orchid on the marker. I mean, this is kind of similar to everything we've been talking about with the hive mind and art and creation. It's like,

your favorite filmmaker making a movie means more than a hive mind in your favorite filmmaker's body making a movie. It just fundamentally represents something totally different. And in this case, yeah, your wife, like your life partner painting this for you in whatever beautiful but imperfect way she can paint it is better than the most gorgeous painter in the world

executing it flawlessly on this gravestone. Absolutely. And like, especially in a world where a drone can't even take out the trash. I don't know that I trust. I have mine to do anything. right. So, you know.

I did love that we return to sprouts inside of this episode as part of Detective Carroll's investigative work. She has a barcode and she's like, I know where there's a scanner. I guess they keep the lights on at all time with the sprouts. And it doesn't work out. But then she, like, there's a lot of what Carol sort of stumbles into inside of this investigation. Her figuring out to find the dog food bag that, matches the bag that the

Soylent green power people are in, it was that was brilliant stuff from Carol, honestly. Really good. Brilliant stuff from Carol, inexplicable stuff as a viewer. I just don't even know how she did it. Well, if she recognizes that that's a dog food bag, because dog food bags are pretty distinctive, right?

Well, it could be a dog food bag. It's also like kind of a fertilizer bag. It's kind of a potting soil bag. It's kind of like a commercial volume of rice bag. I don't think you. You're right. You're right. I'm just saying.

As the dog person on this podcast, I wanted to defer to you. Thank you. I don't think rice comes in a bag like that. Generally not. But if you are buying in big enough quantities, maybe it does. I have spent time with fertilizer and potting soil. And that usually comes in like a plastic bag. So I think it is like a distinctively, I wouldn't have thought of it.

No, nor I. And maybe Carol had a dog once in her life. And so she knows that. And I think there was also like a distinctive sort of blue band on the top of it that made it sort of slightly different from any other. But it wouldn't have occurred to me the way that it occurred to Carol, that obviously they're going to locally source these bags. And I guess, yeah. Listen, looking at Donutat Demol.com if rice does indeed come in a bag, like, and I'm just slandered Rob. No, no, no.

You're right that most of those are plastic bags. All I'm saying is like, she makes a jump there, and this is the reason she's Detective Carroll, in addition to scientist Carol, in addition to vlogger Carol, I don't know what that role is exactly, but she's doing all of them to varying levels of success. Correct. Greater than us humble podcasters ever could. So she gets the results. I feel like rice comes in like a burlap sack if it's that much.

Maybe so. Maybe a barrel? A crate? Oh, yeah. That's when you go barrel, absolutely. Barrel or burlap is what I would say at gmail.com. Okay. Anything else?

Oh, okay. So the wolves come. I thought, I mean, it was really funny. The next morning when she figures out how to easily get the gun out of the cop car and also then easily get the handcuff off her wrist. been there for at least a day. Well, not to belabor the metaphor, Joe, but this is where it really felt like moving past a stage of grief in the light of day kind of thing.

And she's like actually noticing things around her for the first time in basically a week. And like unshackling from something would you say? See, come on. If you want to talk about two on the nose, I will say, as an Agatha Christie fan. Yeah. I simply would not put a copy of and then there were none. like in the front of the frame and an episode when everyone left town. That's just simply not what I would do.

Do you think that's any future casting in terms of where the show goes? Like, I mean, of course. You see that cover. You see that novel. You start figuring out, okay, like, what are we talking about here? Is there a world in which the 13 unlicked start dropping like flies for various reasons? And it's kind of a different sort of. And then there are none scenario.

And one of them is killing the rest of them? And then Hank, well, I was going to spoil it. Let's not do that. You know, 13 ummitged soldier boys. That's all I'm saying. Soldier Boys really is the acceptable terminology there. 13 Unleck Soldier Boys is really great stuff for you. Rob.

Happy holidays. You too, Joe. Thanks. Anything else you want to mention. Oh, okay. Our listener Rebecca wrote in, very timely. To say, I've been a vegetarian for 30 years, but I do miss the taste of meat. And I'm always coming up with fantastical scenarios of when it might be acceptable for me to eat it.

Oh, Rebecca. You don't know what you've stumbled into. For example, maybe I had a pet cat, well-cared-for pet cow who died of old age. Go time. I was thinking that if I were one of the ones like Carol who had enjoyed the donut lickers, aka the unlicked Rebecca, thank you so much. I could once again eat meat without guilt because it's my understanding that the collective isn't butching animals anymore animals. So the meat has already been produced is the last man on earth.

if I were to eat some of that meat that's left, I wouldn't be participating in a culture that praise on animals because now that's gone. Rebecca and other vegetarians out there, I have a question for you. How do you feel about powdered people? It's just, you know, the donut liquors feel like they found a loophole. They really did.

Self-sustaining, Joe, you know? It's a closed loop. It's protein-rich. It's protein-dense. And I don't know, Rob, if you follow the nutritional trends, but no one can get enough protein these days. They cannot. I was walking through the grocery store, Joe,

and I saw Pop-Tarts with protein. I'm like, we've gone too far. Enough now. I say this is someone who enjoys a Pop-Tart, but simply not. Anything else you want to say about this episode before we get to Sports Corner? Well, along the lines with the powder. Yeah.

I was very grateful that Carol did not do what I would have done in that scenario, which is find the big bag of white powder and at least think about tasting it to figure out if it's salt or sugar or flour. or some mysterious substance. I 100% would have done that. It crunched under her foot and I was like, oh, that's sugar, right?

That's a sugar crunch. Or a kosher salt. You know, I think like a big enough grain of salt could crunch like that. Yeah, I really thought we were going to see her taste it, like 100%. 100%. I also thought when she put down the glass of, like, I would not be drinking brown liquor under the circumstances where you're also mixing, like, people lipped in ice tea and putting the glasses right next to each other. I really thought she was going to pick up the wrong glasses.

Well, she also had honey on the table that it was like she was trying to compare its viscosity. That's how she got to like the olive oil consistency or whatever. But she was just like guessing on viscosity. I don't know. It's very interesting. Okay, anything else before we go to Sports Corner as our resident sportsman. Well, look, we have begrudged. Is begrudged even the right word in these circumstances?

I've taken lots of shots recently, Joe, at the pigeons and the pigeon community. I got to say we get some some beautiful crow shots here. I got nothing against a crow. You know, one of our most complex thinkers in the animal kingdom. I'm happy to see the crows here. We got multiple pro pigeon emails in the last week. There was a lot. Wasn't there one about how a pigeon like defeated Hitler? Yeah, I'm going to have to do a little more research on that. Obviously, if the battle is pigeons versus Hitler, I'm going to be on the pigeon side of that conflict. Okay. You know, maybe it's a little convenient for me. But in that case, case, you know, you're like, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, you know.

The pigeon and I can be unsteady allies in these times against Hitler. Wow. Wow. Okay. Listen, whatever it takes to Unitas as a divided nation is, I welcome it. Okay. Let's go to sports corner. Here's what Alex had to say, and I thought this was really interesting.

Alex said someone asks whether the Undersecretary of Agriculture could pull off James Hardin's step back threes. The physical aspects aside, those shots are. successful only because his defender thinks he's about to drive to the basket. If the defender is psychically joined with the player, that negates an enormous amount of what the player is trying to accomplish, which kind of makes the whole thing moot. Rob Mahoney, sportsman. Yes.

This question of trying to play sports, physical ability aside, when everyone knows what move everyone else is about to do. What do you think about that? This is what makes team sports functionally impossible in these times. And I would say basketball more than any, and I can speak to certainly with a greater level of not authority, but familiarity. You're an authority, wrong. It's okay.

There's a really great basketball book. I mean, it's decades old at this point. It might be 50 years old called the essence of the game is deception. And it is baked into every move, every gambit. Literally everything you're trying to do on a basketball court is a faint or a misdirect of some kind. And so, yeah, if some of your teammates and some of your teammates and some of you, of the opponents are psychically linked, what are we doing here? Like you would need a team of unliked versus a team of ultimately hive minders to make it work

at all. Like shirts versus skins, but it's licked versus unliked is what you're saying. Basically or kind of an Olympics for the fate of the world kind of scenario. Maybe that's more of a space, ultimately that is a space jam. This is exactly a space jam scenario. This is indeed a jam for space. I can only hope that the finale is Ray C. Horn with an elongated arm from half court a la Michael Jordan and space jam somehow dunking on aliens.

Okay. Vince Gilligan, if you're listening, these ideas are free. There's still time, you know? If you want to work in some anti-pigeon slander and a space jam ending, Rob would be quite happy with it. Okay. Coleman asks, would combat sports, boxing, MMA, be possible, since I don't think the members of the hive can hurt each other.

How about football since the hive knows whatever else is doing this? That's the same question would be scripting, scripted like a pro wrestling match. Could sports gambling work? Sorry, draft kings, etc. Duel fan, that are Van Duel, whatever. Sorry, dual fans.

Sorry, fan duels. Sorry, draft kings. No free ads, but I don't think you exist in the high-mind world. I don't think there's gambling of any kind in the high-fine world, right? But even the contact part of that, I think, is interesting, too. Like, even something as simple as, like, soccer or football,

which you would think is a relatively low-contact sport in the grand scheme of things, compared to, you know, MMA, you can't slide tackle somebody if you're part of the hive mind. I think that goes against your programming. It's a great point. Okay. Now let's talk about the golfers. The golfers think it would be very cool, actually, to play a golf in this new reality.

One thing that several of them brought up was the idea of handicaps, right? Like, maybe you could play against the hive-minded people with all the dexterity of a tiger woods if they were playing with a handicap. Possibly. Yeah. Jason, I think, wrote the most compelling argument pro golf tour of the world, which is, if I'm truly trying to save humanity and need to spend hours asking questions about how the hive mind works and trying to learn why I'm different, might as well do it during a four-hour walk at Augusta National with an all-knowing caddy or while trying to hit the peninsula ocean

green on the long par three over the ocean at Cyprus Point. At some point I'll run out of West Wing DVDs. Sorry, but I'm leaving the Golden Girls on the shelf and going straight to Jed Bartlett. And we'll need to go out of the house. So let's go to Scotland and play at St. Andrews. And I just think that's a great point. I'm not a golfer myself, Rob Mahoney, but like many people are saying golfers do talk about like, you know, the way in which walking the green is part of the world. Or driving it, frankly.

Yeah, the communal experience. Not just the communal experience, but just sort of like at some of these spots. Now, I would argue, for me, unmowed grass, nature, nature is a more desirable, like, sort of walk in nature. But for some people, walking a golf course surrounded by a beautiful ocean, beautiful trees, something like that. That is like this sort of like a Bill Bryson walk in the woods-esque sort of experience for them. And so that idea of like, I need to ponder this. And Carol's just like sitting on her couch. and our listener, Jason's travel in the world

and going to all the famous golf courses. I'm like, that's, you know, you're multitasking. You're trying to figure out how to liberate humanity. Completely. And, you know, sinking some shots. As a means to an end. Is that what people say sinking shots? I certainly hope so, Joe.

We are out of our death. We watched Happy Gilmore did come, though. Don't we know everything? We did. We had a great time. Yeah, in terms of information gathering, I think you could be quite successful. basically quarantining one specific member of the hive mind and using your truth serum or not trying to extract information from them.

That part I get. And frankly, as far as enjoying the delights of the world absent crowds, a golf course is certainly one of them. Like, I know enough golfers to know that like the fight for tea times in some area specifically is just brutal. And now like to bring AI back into it, like ridden with bots who are claiming tea times and then being auctioned out. It's a whole thing. There's a whole subculture there that we don't even need to get in. Like campsites, too. Well, it's been true for years.

Exactly. Like the bot wars for reserving campsites. So, yeah. The bot wars to then experience nature is just about the bleakest thing I can imagine. But ultimately, I think what the golfers are describing, to me is a little less like I'm on the range. I'm on the range. I'm on the course with my friends. And more like I'm playing Mario golf, but in real life.

Do you say you were the sportsman of the spot? I got my driving ranges and my courses crossed for a second. I don't profess to be a golfing expert, Joe. I simply can't and frankly wouldn't. Okay. Well, that has been this episode. A podcast. Something.

It's a holiday week. I'm not sure we're entirely on top of our game, sinking shots and driving at the range. But we appreciate everyone listening to this podcast. Whether you did it to avoid your family or not, we appreciate it. We appreciate Ashley Smith, who worked in this episode. Absolutely.

We appreciate you, Joe. Come on. Steering the ship on all these pods. It's, you know, maybe it's a, it's a cliched time to be sentimental, but I cannot help but be sentimental. Rob Mahoney, I'm very thankful for you as a podcasting partner, as always. And Justin Sales. What a guy. Mm-hmm. Among the best guys we got.

I hope he is not absorbed by any kind of hive mind. Yeah, imagine losing the individuality that is Justin Sales. That would be an absolute calamity. Okay. We'll be back with more pluribus. And we also have some other sort of bigger picture shows coming up. So keep an eye on the feed for that. And genuinely, happy holidays to everyone.

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