The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Pluribus’ Episode 8: “Charm Offensive”, the Penultimate Episode

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

With the finale steadily approaching, Jo and Rob are here to help break down the second-to-last-last episode of the first season of ‘Pluribus’. (0:00) Intro (8:04) Connectivity and empathy (14:37) Hive-mind theater (23:53) Carole in the New World (40:37) Rob’s hypothetical (42:37) A Manousos question (47:44) Breaking down the info nuggets (56:57) Anticipating the finale Email us! [e-mail] or [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Prestige TV Podcast and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Donnie Beacham Jr. Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joya Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here with the pen-ultimate episode of Pluribus charm offensive is the episode we're covering here today. Rob, I'm really bummed that we only have one more episode of the season, honestly. I know. And honestly, this one didn't feel as pen-ultimate as other pen-ultimate episodes we have covered. You know, in some ways, yes, is Minuso's kind of moving into place for a big confrontation potentially in the finale, Joe. But a lot of answers, a lot of stuff happening. I felt like it was in its way, in a very pluribus way, an action-packed episode. And a nice, I think, balance to last week's episode where people felt like not very much happen, which I don't really agree with, but we can talk about that. Some people needed more talking, and we got more talking. We certainly did. Here's the philosophical question I have for you, Rob Moni. Please. When life gives you lemons, would you make pink lemonade or would you grab the scalpel? And these seems to be the two of the two responses we have from our co-leads on this show this

week. What do you think? Are you a lemonade guy or a scalpel guy? I mean, I would like to think I'm a scalpel guy. But if I'm being honest with myself, am I just going for the lemonade? I will say it's too early to be going lemonade from concentrate. Like there are still good lemons out there. Some people like only do lemonade from concentrate, but that really did take.

take me back to like childhood. Like I haven't, well, college. I think college is the last time I let like a gooey cylinder of concentrate slither out of a can into a pitcher and like poured vodka in and that that's a lot of my college experience. This will be the time for it. Like the pluribis apocalypse is going to be huge for crystal light. You know, like this really is its shining moment. Making the shade better. Okay, so listen, want to catch up on a couple things from last week. The golfing community has weighed in. Yep. Here's two things we know. One, my multiple use of the word shagging, phrase shagging balls was incorrect. And I tell you this with, and you know this to be true, I got that from tin cup, but I thought I knew what it meant, but I did not know

what it means. It means picking up balls, not, you know, hitting them off the top of a parking question. Here's also a thing. You just can't trust any sports terms that Kevin Costner uses in a movie. They really could be all over the place. Sometimes they're accurate. It's just like blind darts That's a really good life philosophy, Rob. I agree. And then we were wondering about, you know, vanity plates. And there was one ace baby. And we were wondering if that was a tennis term, but it is also a golf term. So thank you to the golfers who have been a robust and stalwart presence in our email inbox from the beginning of the coverage of pleuribus. And they were excited to show up again this week. So thank you so much. Also, you know, something. So in real time, here's what happened. We were talking about Minusos in last week's episode on the ground, the helicopter above him, and he sort of puts his hands up. And in real time, while we were recording, you were like, he's calling for help. And in real time, I was just like compelled by that description. And I was like, yeah, I agree. He was calling for help. And then all the emails were like, I think he's just

shading his eyes. And I was like, oh, man, I got, I got bamboozled by Rob being very convincing to me. Anyway, I don't know what, what, I think it's, I still don't know. I, I think, like a lot of what happens in this episode, which is it's not an either or it's not one thing or another. It's something in between. I think we could say that what happens with the Nusos is something in between. Is he shading his eyes because there's like a bright light above him? Yes. Is the hive mind, which in the official pod this week they described as having a very lawyerly relationship with the truth is what they said. Is the hive mind willing to sort of like take an inch if you give a mouse a cookie? They're like if you put your hand up vaguely, we're going to decide. that that means you need our help, you know, that's a physical content for you, you know?

I like how in this metaphor, the mace in, if you give a mouse a cookie, are lawyers. They're just, they are ready to take their pound of flesh. You never heard that phrase if you give a lawyer a cookie? You know what? I've somehow missed that one, but I support the lawyers getting their cookies. Look, it's the holiday season, Joe. Everyone deserves a cookie this time of year. That's true.

Do you have a favorite holiday cookie, Rob Mahoney? You know, a classic sugar, you really can't go wrong. My only request is like, let's keep the icing reasonable. You know, I don't want blue teeth on the other side of it. So we can we can all just agree. A little bit of sugar can go a long way. On the icing front, I really agree. You got to keep it like, keep it light.

I like a chocolate crackle cookie at the holidays. Wait, what is a chocolate crackle cookie? It's like a cookie where it's like you make like a ball of dough and then you roll it in powdered sugar. And then when you cook it, it sort of like cracks open. Oh, yes, yes. A little craggly on top. Okay, I know the one you're talking about. Anyway.

I think the best cookie, Joe, is just the random pull from the tin that has six different cookies in it. Like, this is really what the variety is what I'm after. That's Christmas roulette. You're playing with fire there, man. I feel good about it. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner.

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Press T.GV at Spotify.com or licking the donut at gmail.com. If you have a favorite holiday cookie that you want to share with us. But also, Rob, what are we doing next week in addition to the pluribus finale episode? In addition to our coverage of the pluribus finale, we are going to be doing a listener mailbag all encompassing. And so if you have any questions whatsoever about TV this year, about pluribus, about, I don't know, like what else do we want to open the call for, Joe? What are you open to in this Q&A? I mean, listen, we got a lot of suggestions from emailers this week about what our vanity license plates should be. So I think anything's on the table. You can ask us, will we answer any.

question, no, but you can ask us any question, and I'm happy to consider answering it. Some quite good on the vanity license plate front, Joe. And I will give you this. You know, you threw me under the bus for not yes anding you in the moment on that pod. While I was at the office this week, I also was accosted. How dare you not participate in Joe's bit? How dare you leave your partner hanging like that? Of course, it was Joe Me, the ultimate team player. And he was right. He was right. I failed you in that moment.

I should have put yes and on my vanity license plate. That was on me. I assure you, some groundling already has that on their license plate here in California. I did check. I was like being cage about what my actual pick would be because I didn't want anyone to get it. But I was pretty sure someone already had it. And I did check. So what I want, sorry, sidebar, what I wanted, but it can't have because every variation of it has been taken by a

Tolkien nerd already is the word Namaria, which is basically just Aloha in the elvish language, just means like, you know, go with my good wishes or whatever the case may be. So every iteration of Namari that I could come up with. And by the end, I was like really pushing the, because if you're going to put an elven word on a license plate, you like, it's legibility is much harder than anyway. Point being, I could not make it work. It's not happening. And thank you for all your suggestions. I really liked the one that was for one of the ones that was for you, which was freeze frame, freeze frameer, basically, or freeze frame R or freeze frame Rob.

I don't know what the idea was, but it was pretty good, I thought. I'm thrilled that that reputation precedes me. Also, Joe, not surprising at all to me that you would be elf coded. I could see you being in the like, I'm going to go off with the elves on the boat at the end. You know, like, I'm good with Middle Earth generally. Like, let's just, let's just see what this is all about. Grey Havens, you know, it's, it's alluring. Okay, listen, let's talk about Plymouthus a bit more.

Let me, well, let me start with the scene that I was most compelled by. Okay. Which is in the couples massage sequence when Carol is asking like, you know, you're both giving the massage and receiving the massage. You know, Carol is doing a lot of investigative work inside of this episode. You know, what does that feel like? Are you feeling everything all at one? And then Zosha starts talking about all the people who died and all the births that just happened. And also, oh, someone just got impaled.

Like that just happened. And it made me think about, you know, something that the show is so good at pushing is the idea of sort of like the way we live now, the way we are all actually very connected and how that hyperconnection makes us disconnected. So I've been talking a lot recently with pals about like the way we have access. to so much information about every atrocity that's going on in the world is not something I would say we shouldn't have because I don't like want us to ostrich ourselves and not pay attention in what's going on in the world. But how much and you know, psychologists have studied this, sociologists have studied this, how much this is like blunting our empathy. To know everything always is to you have to sort of build up calluses and ignore yourself a bit to the impact of those

atrocities, and so become, like, less and less empathetic to what's going on in the world. Like, I think it's turning us into sociopaths. And so what does a hive mind represent about this idea of, like, we're bliss out all the time, even as we are aware of, despite the utopia that we've built here, the deaths that, you know, naturally occur around the world or, etc. So, I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that? Is that something that's ever on your mind, et cetera? I mean, only constantly on my mind, Joe. in the way that it is for all of us right now. You're absolutely right. This is a concept that is like so uniquely modern in terms of being overwhelmed with really the tragedy of the world, but also the

various crises that are like urgent and present all the time around the world and that you feel powerless to participate in and stop. And that's, I think, also part of Plyurbis, right, is the power fantasy of what if you could just snap your fingers and turn off every bit of pollution around the planet instantly? What if you could snap your fingers and resolve at least temporary Feminarily, famine and permanently, things like war or things like destructive drug use. Like all of these things that are destroying places, people, communities, the planet. You could fix a lot of those things almost instantly. And that I think the idea that they're wrestling with in the massage sequence in particular is this sense that like individuals feel things, but collectively the hive mind knows everything.

Right. Which is what Carol writes on the floor. Completely. And I think that's such an interesting idea and a bunch of different. ways, one of which is what you're describing, which is the shared knowledge and understanding and the pulling in one direction of all of humanity, which is an incredibly powerful thing that we've just like never, ever experienced in the history of our species. Like, it's not what we do. And so seeing that harness for at least the, like, the gesture of good, if not empirical,

undeniable good, I think is an incredibly persuasive thing to see. There's also something like on such a micro level, though, that is so still unsatisfying. about it and the idea of being a part of it that like who am I to weigh the individual human experience against resolving war forever? Like that would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. And yet I am pondering a world in which you are getting a massage, but you are fully aware of exactly where someone's hand is about to be placed and like the spontaneity of human connection and the surprise of life. And I have all of the world's knowledge on how to be the best croquet player in the universe, but also if we're just two members of the hive mind, why would we ever play croquet?

Why would we ever do that? What purpose would it serve when I need to drive the truck of human remains so that you can eat the truck of human remains, you know? I think that this is this, I love that you've raised this. Something that, you know, our listeners have been bringing up in the email inbox for a while now is this question of like, wouldn't the hive mind want to keep a few unlicked around? Because how boring is life if you don't have. have the unpredictability of someone telling you why the sound of a train makes them feel a

certain way or to give you a new chapter of a book that you haven't all collectively read, whether or not it's why Caro. So I think that, yeah, this moment, I mean, I really loved this episode for all the complications of how Carol is feeling both attracted to Zosia and needing that companionship while not giving up on her investigative work. and Zosha, I think, feeling something for Carol as well as working this seduction on her of a certain kind. Like all of these things are true inside. There's a lot of nuance inside of what's going on here. And so I think this idea of how delighted the high, yes, they're seducing Carol. Yes, they're

trying to like get Carol to work on my car. So she'll, you know, have that section of the whiteboard open and not the other section of the whiteboard and all these other things. But I do think they're genuinely excited to get a new chapter of something. And they can't create art on their own. They can't Georgia O'Keefe their way through a trip to Hawaii. So like what, you know, what is the point of your utopia if you don't have art? That's me, someone who podcasts about film and television. That's my question, you know. Well, I mean, they're dealing with their own biological imperatives in the same way that we as humans are dealing with a version of ours or at least kind of

what at our core makes us human, right? Like the things that divide us and make us flawed are the same things that facilitate art. For them, it's like the unity of being part of the hive mind is in itself disruptive to all of those things that make life theoretically interesting. Like, you cannot be optimized and interesting and spontaneous at the same time. Like, those things just do not coalesce. And so I agree with you. Like, in some ways, an idealized version of the planet might be this weird hybrid thing. But if that's the case, will the unliked people like Carol always be the fly and the oint? Will they always be sort of the exception that needs to be fixed and solved?

Because I think we've seen with people like Carol, Menusus in particular, they don't really appreciate being treated that way for the most part, although Carol, at least in part, is coming around on it. Yeah, towards the end of this experience, and there's a time jump inside of this episode, and towards the end of sort of this time she's spent with Zocke, she's. she's listening to the radio, which is theater being performed for her. Yes. But she's listening to it in a way she wouldn't even let herself when she was by herself.

She was singing to herself. And now she's like, I will listen to your performed version of what radio used to be when the world still worked. But at least it's both. Like true to the Carol and Zosha, whatever this relationship is, it is a hive mind DJ playing records of actual human performers. You know, it's not the great hive mind quartet. I bet the hive mind quartet actually kind of sucks. Okay.

I was listening to, I don't know, a recording of a surprise, surprise for me, a musical the other day. And one of like the great singers of the stage. And she went slightly flat on a note before like finding the actual tuning out of it. And I was listening to that and I was like, I actually really. love this because it's like it's human it's not auto to like fuck auto tune it's not perfect perfect pitch it's a human she sounds amazing like you know but there's just like a slight flat slide into the right tuning that just like makes it all the more totally you know delicious um well joe you and now talked

about this on you know your house of our episode about the great musical moments of the last 25 years and like that is exactly what it's all about it's like how do you find those cracks of imperfection otherwise really skilled performers. And it's because you feel either the limits of what they can do as a person or the emotion peeking through. It's like that kind of stuff can't be replicated. And when you try, it gets honestly kind of embarrassing to see people try to fake those moments, which makes you know how valuable and human they really are. I want to ask you about this, speak of theater, hive mind theater, this diner sequence that we get. If the hive mind rob were to lull you into a sense of complacency. what location in your life would they recreate for you? Was there like a college coffee shop or like early days of being a sports writer, et cetera, a place that you went that you have like nostalgia for? This is such a great question. Luckily, the places that are jumping to mind for me are not closed.

Not burnt down. They're not burned down. They've not been destroyed by human foible or otherwise. they're just not where I live. And so you don't get to go to them and experience them as much. I think the one that's jumping to mind for me, and maybe this is just because of the writerly association, I do my version when I write of what Carol is talking about all the time.

Of like you go to this place with a notebook. I'm not writing longhand on legal pads because that's crazy if you have access to a laptop. Although I support anyone who wants to and can do it, I cannot. But there's a spot here in Dallas, where I am right now, called Delhi News, like a New York style deli, incredible pastrami, happy to shout them out. No free ads, but I just am an enthusiast and supporter. Yes. And it would, it was my, it was my journey on the opposite end. If I've just written a big story, if I've just gotten through a project, this is my reward place. And I'm going to luxuriate and I'm going to spend some time and I'm going to like

take that beat in that breath. And I wish I had it around all the time. I wish I could do it. You know, now that I live in L.A., I wish it was there. I have to find my new version of that. Do you have one that comes to mind for you, Joe? There's a coffee shop in Davis, California, called Common Grounds that is now closed that I spent a lot, a lot of time in. But yeah, like there's just something about, I don't know, the cozy, you know, armchair in a certain coffee shop. Yes. And then, but more potently, you know, because like that diner coffee that Carol is thinking about is not necessarily good or anything like that. But more potently, it's like the time, the feeling in your life.

life, what it meant to be young, full of promise. I was, you know, when she's talking about legal pads and whatever she, like, you know, snuck out of work, I was, it's like a very, like, thinking about Kim Wexler, like, at her day jobs, raiding the supply closet. But, like, just that feeling of being full of hope. And versus the jaded carol that we meet at the beginning of this season, who has achieved all this writerly success, but at the cost she feels of her, you know, artist. credibility or whatever the case may be.

So you can't go home again. And that's sort of what her rejection of that diner sequence means. It also, I love that it was triggered by this, we airlifted this waitress out of this new life that she had created for herself and forced her back here to serve you coffee. And so Carol, like, not being consistent with what she objects to inside of the hive mind catering to her needs. Yeah, bring me these dry erase pens, like the moment that I need them, but also, how dare you do this to this woman?

Restock my sprouts, but also how dare you, you know, and make that train whistle blow, but, you know, how dare you do this? And I just love that about Carol. Like, she's, she's an inconsistent person. She's very complicated, yeah. Well, especially with something that's this kind of all-encompassing and immersive, right? The question is sort of what breaks the spell? And the markers clearly aren't enough to do that, but a person who should not be

here who's acting as if everything is fine. Right. It's just like a little too much to believe. And Carol, we should say like by type is exactly the kind of person who would read a big gesture as being a manipulative thing. Like that just seems like consistent with her personality in a lot of ways. Relatable. Is the diner a manipulative thing?

I think absolutely. The question as far as the hive mind is concerned is like if the hive mind has a biological imperative to win over the resistors or the unlicked or, whatever with kindness, basically, to ensure zero resistance to the spread of its basically viral capacity. Isn't that inherently kind of manipulative? But if it is, is it necessarily bad? And I think the show really wants you to wrestle with that idea of like, Zosha and the

hive mind are manipulating Carol. There's no question about it. The charm offensive is going both ways. I think Carol is trying to win over Zosha as an individual or at least kind of get close enough that she can get her questions answered. And the hive mind is trying to persuade Carol subtly in other ways. wise they're like, hey, maybe this isn't so bad. Come into our cuddle puddle. Everything can be just fine. Right. I just think that the diner element of this is such, it's such a fascinating

touch point and also like a point of friction ultimately in that like it's just pushing a little too far, a little too fast. And I'm so curious to know like how we as normal people would respond to something like that because it is a big gesture. It is an incredibly thoughtful thing to do. But if a collective consciousness can hold every thought and memory in its head simultaneously, is it even impressive to be thoughtful anymore? Wow. Fantastic question. And I think also, I love that, Rob.

And I think also the way in which Carol put her foot down very clearly, don't use Helen. Yes. And then Zosha uses Helen multiple times this episode. All the time. Like the rooks missing from your chest set, right? There's no way for her to know that, if not access. And then her play acting as Helen, like the ripping of like, Oh, poor tortured artist.

Like that is just like copy paste Helen's personality. This thing that Carol loved about Helen, Helen giving her shit. Like it's something that she loved. And I was just like, I was repulsed by that personally. Like I like Zosia. And the sequence inside of this episode, the mango ice cream sequence, which we can talk about in a second, is, you know, a place where I'm really pulled towards Zosia. but when she is very clearly doing Helen, I had a lot of resentment to that as a viewer watching that happen. Absolutely.

And I think Carol at certain points in this journey probably would have. But by the time it's happening, she's been so worn down by golfing into the abyss and the sheer loneliness of what her last month plus has been like. Right. At that point, you know, two months plus has been like, she's a little powerless to resist it. And I think that's where the complications of this episode are so fun, Joe, because if there wasn't like a hive mind element, if it was just two people, this episode is very like spy versus spy. Two people trying to manipulate each other, trying to win each other over, trying to like maybe sort of honeypot each other. Like all of that stuff is in the air. Yeah.

But because one of these people is actually attached to a giant sweeping consciousness, it does what pleurbas does so often, which is it takes this thing you know and twists it up a little bit and makes it a little unrecognizable because the past. power balance is just like shifting in such a massive global way that this isn't Zosha impersonating Helen. It's a giant alien intergalactic being consciousness hive mind. Yeah. Impersonating a human impersonating Helen. And like what is Carol relative to that? It's hard to know moment to moment. And I can understand why she would be a little confused moment to moment. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound tersephatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems

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Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. They used a couple interesting phrases in the official podcast this week. One was this idea of like, Carol falling in love with the world. You know, like if she's falling in love with Zosha, she's falling in love with the world.

And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Especially for Carol, someone who like hated the world or at least had a very spiky attitude towards it. And then for Zosha, Carolina's character, they said, quote, that character is changing and adjusting. And so this goes back to a question that we had had earlier this season is like, is there way for Zosia through her one-on-one interactions with Carol to be individuated somehow from the highest mind. There's like, you know, all these theories about blocking a frequency. We get more like

sort of frequency information in this. There's all these other ideas about how we could disconnect people from the hive mind. But what does it mean for to be connected to the hive mind, but feel the individual things that Zosia feels, getting a massage, having sex, doing all these other things. And then like being forced to remember what the person who was Zosia, what her favorite ice cream was. I don't think she's lying about this memory about the mango ice cream, even though I saw some things on Reddit of like, actually, there wouldn't be mango ice cream in the 90s of that area, whatever, the mango ice cream. And also the mystery of where the boats were going when she was like, and I used to wonder

where the boats were going. And then she's like, of course, now I know because she knows everything. And so the mystery and the wonder and the excitement of discovery is gone. out of the world once you're part of the hive mind, except that there's a new chapter of Wakaro and someone, you know, wants to tell you about why the whistle of a train is so alluring. So what did you make of this, this mango ice cream sequence and this idea of Zosha individuating somehow? I think it's so interesting to hear the people involved with the show describe it in that way.

Because I think in the text itself, to me it's not like 100% clear that Zosha is changing. Yeah. I just never, I never put it past anyone involved with the hive mind to play their part. Because that like, this is what they do. This is, and honestly, it's what Carol is asking her to do. I say it not to put, even put the blame on Zosha in this scene. But to me, Carol, and I mean this to be as gross as it sounds, it feels like she's like domesticating Zosha in a way.

It's like, this is how you talk. This is how I want you to be. This is how you perform being a person who is the body that you're inhabiting. And like, she's working on a different scale than Kumba is in his like casino royal daydream. But ultimately, it's not so different than like. hey, you there, come be an Elvis impersonator in my like Las Vegas suite. I want you to be my domestic partner and tell me this intimate detail about your life that is kind of your life, but also

kind of not really. And so I love the idea that in this moment, Carol is asking Zosha or the hive mind via Zosha to access this like very specific thing and embody it in a way. And in doing it, maybe she's bringing this person closer to being who she was originally. Maybe like even if it's just incrementally, just kind of nudging that little moment of mango ice cream memory back into frame and the vivid like sensory association can overwhelm like whatever electromagnetic link is happening. But it's also just play acting of a different kind and a kind that I have I've found myself being like quite judgmental of in this show of like, oh, like there's just something kind of

kind of a little gross about this about taking a hive mind member and being manipulative. of them, but like the very specific thing that you think you want and they are just performing it. Like, I guess my question is like, how is Zosha in this moment different than the waitress at the diner? I think it's a question that they want us to be asking and not giving us a clear comfortable answer for it. The fact that they're both manipulating each other, I think, makes it a little bit more comfortable because it's not one person just victimizing another. They're both sort of, you know, working the charm offensive on each other. They did on the official pod talk about how many different versions they had of the initial kiss because they were

that question of consent was very top of mind for them and they're like who who has to initiate the kiss who um who is you know like zosha initiates it but then carol like comes back with 90% of like the you know the the force and excitement or whatever you know like there are all these versions because i you know it isn't that dissimilar from what kumba is doing or what they what has been done to this waitress in the diner. It is part of that and it is seductive for us to be drawn into the story of these two people as if they are, you know, two characters on a television show, we can root for finding connection with each other because there's so many other like sticky layers involved in this particular cronut. And I think that like I love this. That's what sci-fi should be,

sci-fi should be, which is just sort of like presenting a story you're familiar with and but with enough philosophical or psychological twists on it that make it challenging for you to feel easy or have a ready answer for. Do you know what I mean? Totally. It reminded me a lot in watching this episode of another soft sci-fi classic in my eyes, the movie Her. Are you a Her fan, Joe? Oh, yeah, huge Her fan. Yeah. I mean, grappling with loneliness, like intense, overwhelming loneliness. Yeah. And especially the idea of like when Carol brings up like I'm playing cards with Google basically, these are kind of the perks of it, right? It's like you get this, all these answers, right?

Like anything at your fingertips and kind of accessing and talking to and having what you see whether it's real or not as a relationship with this extra human consciousness, we'll call it. I just kept coming back to it in terms of the parallel. And it feels extremely AI. We've talked about that throughout the series in terms of pluribus and the hive mind and its overall networking. I also think it plays into this episode in the charm offensive.

Maybe there's a secret thing. third kind, which is, you know, Carol is seducing Zosia. Zosia and the hive mind are suiting carol. Carol is basically seducing herself. Like she is asking Zosha to perform a particular thing and then kind of falling deeper and deeper in connection with that thing. And like, this is kind of the problem with the spontaneity and surprise and mystery that we keep circling back to is like, what happens when every want to need is prescribed by you and filled immediately on the terms that you want? And is that something you can ever really be satisfied by? I think Carol is making an argument with her actions that maybe you can.

I think that's interesting. I love that you brought up her. I mean, thinking about her so much. Her like idiocry are like these two sort of like profit movies that I think about a lot. And like every time you hear about someone falling in love with their chat GPT or their AI girlfriend or whatever, I'm like, wow, her was just a documentary. Okay. That there is like where there are wearable chat GPT. things now and I'm just sort of like just thinking about Joaquin Phoenix with his little device in

his pocket. And those chat GPTs aren't even singing sweet lullabies to you. With the voice of Scarlet Johansen. I know. And the lyrics of Karen O. Like what is a person to do but to swoon? But I love that idea that Carol is, Carol is seducing yourself, but also occasionally there's cold water splashed on her. Like when she looks at the windows, you see, Helen's grave or the, you know, the waitress in the diner or getting to her whiteboard and underlining they eat people, like remind yourself what you're dealing with here, like all of these moments. So this seduction, this pull, and this is what we were talking about.

Last week we were like, oh, no, Manusos is on her, on his way. And Carol is collapsing in defeat. And next week's episode, you know, you and I haven't seen it. but the title of the episode is La Cica or El Mundo, like the girl or the world, you know, and in Spanish, so like from this like Menusa's point of view of just sort of like, I think La Chica being Zosha, right? You know, like, do you want this perfect physical embodiment of your physical desires who is also, you know, play acting as your lost love?

Or do you want to save the world with me? And what will Carol decide? And like can those of us at home who I think because Carolina Vidra is so good at what she does, I feel attached to Zosha and, you know, I will feel sad. It's similar to like what we talked about with severance. We were talking about like, what's the solution here? We want Mark to be freed from his like shackles of, we don't want to kill, you know, the severed. Right. But we want the severance program to end, you know?

Yes. You can't liberate the innies without killing the outies. Exactly. And you can't extinguish the ines. Or like, you know, both ways feel like a disaster. So, like, I don't want Zosia to disappear. I am invested in her and I like her. But if it means freeing the world, like, probably she should go away.

I don't, you know, and that's the choice for Carol. But I think we the viewers are complicit in that, you know. I mean, without question. And that is the success of this character within this show, right? of pitching us from the very beginning, this is an ambassador of this larger global concern. And now she's just a woman who Carol's kind of falling in love with despite her resistance, despite everything she knows and the fact that she shouldn't, despite her ongoing investigation into everything that these people and viral, I don't, entities are or were or could be.

It's just this entrancing thing. And like these sorts of relationships and falling in love is entrancing. I think I find either for one of two reasons, either because it is opening up your world to all this new stuff, or it's taking everything that feels like overwhelming about the world and making it feel small and manageable. And somehow, I think part of what makes this relationship so effective is it's kind of doing both. Carol's getting all the answers she wants just by asking and seeing. And, you know, it's one thing to like ask where, you know, this all came from. And it's another thing for Zosia to be able to turn off all the lights so you can see it on your telescope. And I think that combination of factors, it's like, I think that would win almost anybody over.

If you really, if you really subjected yourself to it and put yourself in that situation. Yeah. It's incredibly persuasive. I got to say croquet date and stargazing date. Like these are, these are excellent choices, I think. Running bits on the Jumbotron. I mean, like, Joe, we haven't even really dug into the sports element of all this, which I love podcasting with you all the time. We spent roughly six hours earlier this season debating whether sports men and women and people would be involved in the collective consciousness in a way where say like I could pick up a golf club and be Tiger Woods.

And we definitively got a lot of answers in this episode about muscle memory, about, you know, what an athlete can or can't do or what like an elite chess player could or could not inform. That one makes a little more sense. But, you know, somehow we were on the right track. I think we were just bullshitting on a podcast. Well, I loved this moment. I will say chiefly, like the board game moment because when she was going through the board gig cabinet and she's like, oh, no, you can't play that against you, can't play that against you.

I was like, all of our listeners were really like on this early on, this question of like, how do you play a board game with the high of mind? Playing spit, I think is a really fun solution. Spit, a game I played. I didn't know it was only invention in the 80s, but a game, hard game I played a lot. My sister always massacred me at spit. But I love that as a moment to like remind us about Carol's family that she is estranged from and this idea of like, no, I don't want to see my cousin who I used to play card games with. And like there's the answer that makes no sense, which is like if he didn't want to see me in the previous days, like, well, you know, his will has nothing to do with it. She knows that. But it's more like if he didn't want to see me all these years that I was estranged from the family, why would that, you know, it's sort of Medusa's and his mom. It's like, why would, why would that make a connection for me now? But that reminder of

the trauma she had about her own identity as related to her family growing up really hooks into the ending of this episode when she reveals the new chapter. And now Raban is, is a woman, how she always intended her to be. So this hive mind new world order in addition to reducing pollution, etc., etc., is now a world where Carol can be honest. Yeah. The high mind no notion. she wants to have sex with women because she just had sex with all the hive mind, essentially. Interesting. Think about. I hope that was fun.

But like, but so then she can just be herself in this new world order in a way that she never felt comfortable being before. Yes. That's, I think, interesting to me. And this is one of those elements where I think she even feels free, I mean, free of all kinds of judgment, clearly, in terms of who she is as a person and what she can express in the world, but also a little free of Helen's judgment in a way, not. in being able to, you know, express every element of her sexuality, but in terms of her writing

and her books and, like, that thought in the back of her head that she had confirmed earlier in the season that of what Helen, like, really thinks of her fantasy writing. And like, this is a fun thing that kind of keeps you occupied and pays the bills, but is it really that great? And Zosha and the hive mind, for better or worse, think it is tied for the greatest book ever written, including this new chapter. And so, like, I think there are many things kind of unblocking Carol in this moment. One, Zosha just appears to have like fucked some things loose. You know, like there's just, just everything is pouring out right now.

All the, all the information in the world about sexual exploration at her fingertips. So, you know. A lot going for her clearly in a lot of different ways. Yeah. It seems to have done the trick. But I think also just being free of that burden of expectation of both the canonically obsessed fans at her reading who are like, well, what about this? What about that?

What about these details? Like how, how dare you? mess this up. This couldn't possibly be true because it's the wrong kind of space sailboat. Being free of all that, but also being free of even the idea that, like, is this good enough for Helen? Like, what will my partner think of this? What will the people I care about most think of this? Well, this is, and I love to think about this all the time when writers create worlds, this is the classic Weiss and Beading Off Game of Thrones finale where they're like, what's more important than story? And I was like, what's more self-wankery than writing that line into your TV

show what's more important than story, right? So for Carol... What's more important than podcasting, Joe? I mean, what is more important than podcasting? I don't know. What's more important than talking about story, Rob? That's my question. But for Carol, how seductive is it for Carol, a writer to be the only game in town?

Like, she doesn't have to deal with any competition. Not only is Shakespeare dead, but all contemporary writers are not creating new stuff. She's the only... You know, Kuma's out here in Vegas just like reiterating. IP. He's like, what, what movie have we all already seen that we can just remake again today? You know, so like that's just like a current Warner Brothers executive basically. Yeah, Zazlov and incarnate. But like, but Carol, for however she feels about Waycaro or Bitter Chrysalis, is the only one making new story. And when she asks, I agree with you that it is kind of gross and manipulative for her to say to Zosia, say I instead of we. and all these other things.

But the Mango Ice Cream story, like that's a storyteller's sort of, you know, what's your story, your individual story, what's the sense memory that you have of this thing? You know what I mean? That's a very like writerly pursuit, I think. And so, yeah, I just love this idea of Carol, who was burnt out in her writing career,

is just now I'm the most creative person left alive in the world. I mean, we don't know what Manusus is, fan fiction is like and maybe miniso is like is great um but right now as far as you know carol is the best writer uh left alive in the world so yeah i mean i could see minuso's being a big sci-fi guy you know actually he's he's so exceedingly practical though maybe that's too far flat like too far fetch for him i bet he likes horror like he's like he's like he's like a lovecraft guy you know yeah yeah i could i could absolutely see that for him uh speaking of horror joe i have a hypothetical for you oh no um

Would you rather, in honor of our friend Menusos, eat dog food out of a can, or be the one to pour the hydrogen peroxide on your own pussing back wounds? Okay. You had me until you said pussing back wounds, which is a really tough phrase to hear. It's just a fact of this episode. It's early on a Friday. It's really early for pussing back wounds. But can I just say, I love pouring hydrogen peroxide on a wound? on your own wounds?

Yeah. Not like I've never had to do one of that magnitude. But like if you have a cut and you pour hydrogen peroxide and it like fizzes on the cut, you don't think that that's like a fun experience. That's just like the first grader in you that wants to see the volcano pour over. But your blood's the lava. It's true. The blood is the ultimate lava.

I think I pick hydrogen peroxide. What about you, Rob? I think I do dog food. And honestly, it's less about. the sensation of the peroxide or any of that. I think it's because it's on my back. I'm so terrified. Like, what if I don't cover,

like, what if I don't spread it around well enough? What if I'm missing a spot in my infected chumbo-wumba wound? It's just not, like, the thought of it would be lingering at the back of my head. I'm sorry. Is there a way to get infected chumbo-wamba wound on a vanity license plate?

Yeah, maybe on the license plate holder. We can see if we can customize that. Yeah, I mean, I guess I got a tattoo on my back last year, and I was very paranoid about like the healing process of something that I couldn't like readily see. So yeah, there's that. On the on the back wound front, I did think it was interesting during the massage sequence for us to see all the like grenade wounds on Zosha's back, this reminder of this thing that she went through because of Carol's, you know, irresponsible whims, basically. On the Menuso's front, pussing back wounds aside, why do you think it is...

Pussing back wounds at gmail.com would have been a good one for us. But I'm really glad that we didn't know we're licking the donut instead. Remember what you thought licking the donut was like a bit too edgy? And you didn't know pussing back wounds was possible? Listen, menus... Okay, so menuso threatens a guy at scalpel point. And also like screamed at, not yelled, yelled at them in a very cool way. I thought, you know, in front of the dairy and gap and stuff.

like that. Why do Menusosus' outbursts not paralyze and freak out the world the way that Carols do? It's a great question. Is it because the hive mind like viewers of Prestiichievie or more conditioned to male anger than they are to female anger? I mean, they are. I mean, there's no doubt collectively. They've been exposed to it. Because this has been a question that people have been asking, is there something special about Carol? Yes. Other than her, you know, rugged American individualism, is there something particularly impactful about Carol? Or are they a bit more used to it now?

And so menusus is, but I would think holding someone by scalpel point would think. Would trigger, you know, a worldwide sort of seizure event. So, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, maybe it's like, I mean, I was going to say maybe it's not as direct. confrontational, but it is holding someone at scalpel point. Maybe we need a side-by-side comparison of like what is the difference in these two scenes that would possibly explain what feels like a potential plot hole unless you want to go to the societal register you were just hitting on, Joe. Maybe they know, I mean, I don't think it's that, though I have been thinking about that

because like people are responding so much better. Well, I don't know people, but like I have seen a mass response of people saying menisos is a more compelling character. I would rather spend time with Menususus than Carol or whatever. The people who were having issues with Plyuribus, their own thing. For what it's worth, this was a dude who is sitting in silence just checking radio frequencies for weeks on end. If you want the first five episodes of the show to be that, I support you, I guess, but I think you would have a similar experience.

Licking the dog food can at Gmail.com. But like, I think that, you know, Manusus is as if not more abrasive than Carol. But I do think that viewers, not everyone who doesn't enjoy Carol as a character is informed by gender bias. But I do think there's a gender bias, including in me, of, you know, we're just used to men being a certain way and female characters not being that way. And I really like that Carol Sturke exists. I think she's a great character to challenge all of us, you know what I mean? Yes. That gender bias is definitely part of it.

There's also just the volume play. of Carol has been on the show so much more. And I think if you are the kind of person who has been watching Pluribus and been frustrated by the pacing of the show or the structure of the show, Carol is kind of representative of that. Like she's been on screen so much. Like she's holding the frame,

whether she's growing or not, is basically like the driving action of the show to this point. And so if you feel that she has just kind of been stifled or jogging in place or, you know, watching a few too many Golden Girls marathons, then, yeah, like she is representative of something structurally that is, a problem for you in addition to whatever you may or may not have internalized about just like a woman

exhibiting this kind of role in a show. I also thought, Joe, we got a great email from Pablo, who was pointing to the character dynamics on Frazier specifically and the construction of that show. And this idea of like, if you put three characters like such diametrically different perspectives as the core of your show, anytime you put them in the room together, you're going to create drama. And so the idea is like, Frazier on Cheers is so pompous. But what if you make Niles even more pompous? And what if you make his dad completely unlike him? And that way, any time you triangulate those characters, they are bumping up against each other for some reason.

And what Pablo was suggesting is that maybe Carol and Minosos and Kumba are kind of the representative versions of this, especially now that Carol has sort of become a little closer to Kumba in some ways. So Minusos is the Niles crane in this particular, the more extreme. The even more intensified version of Carol. I've never been happier than when given the opportunity to talk about Frazier on a podcast. This is basically like, Frazier Crane is kind of like a reason why I am a podcaster. Honestly, I love that show. I mean, he was one of our first great primordial podcasts. Exactly.

I'm genuinely, I'm like so excited to talk about Frazier. That's so funny. That's so brilliant. I miss that email and I just love that idea of, yeah, like pitting extremes. You think Carol is extreme and then you meet him, Minusos. and having Kumba be the sort of John Mahoney character is really interesting. On the... No relation.

I wish, but what can you do? Where's Eddie and all this? Well, we did... So that was the question I want to ask you. We got some canonical answers. As you were talking about in terms about how athletes work, what's going on with the pets, which is a lot of people were concerned about... Very concerned.

What is the origin of the frequency? We now know the name of the planet. You know, so are there any of these like nuggets of information? How far on top of a mountain you can be and still hive mind beam down to a train to get them to like blow the horn, you know, like range and all this sort of stuff like that? So what, you know, what that we haven't discussed did Carol discover her and her investigation this week that either went on the whiteboard or just was shared with us the audience that you found compelling? I think it was the low-key, very chill plan that the hive mind wants to build a giant satellite to transmit its message slash code slash whatever into space. Yeah.

Pay it forward. On to the next planet. I mean, really, it's a very generous thing to do. Slightly concerning. Also very Buffy season five. You know, we're just like kind of construct this giant. What was it in Buffy? It wasn't a satellite.

It was like a metal altar. Yeah. Resonation. Yeah. It's got a chance. something. That's so funny. I was thinking about season three of Buffy earshot, like the episode

of Earshot where it's like, what does it mean to know everything that's happening all the time around you and how crazy making that happen. It's not great. But yeah, the giant antenna slash satellite has me more than a little bit concerned. Worth noting,

the Kepler B, the planet made almost entirely of water. Couple questions. One, speaking of the fine filmography of Joaquin Phoenix, does this mean we won't get a sort of swing away Merrill ending, signs ending of pluribus? Alas, I think not, they're not allergic to water. However, does that mean if a planet is almost entirely water, either this is aquatic-baked life form or something went wrong? You know what I mean?

Like, did something go wrong on this planet and it was flooded? And this is this is the idea of like colon, you know, because this is the question that people have had this whole time is like, is this a gift or is this a way to make us docile and ready for colonization? You know, like what is the plan here? And I think most people are trained to think of whatever is coming from an alien source is a way to weaken us for their ultimate domination. is that the way that alien mindsets work in this particular in the Gilligan verse? I don't know. But the planet being mostly water, I think, is, you know, information that we should store away somehow. I think there's a benign version of that too, which is, you know, they fucked their planet so badly that it got, the oceans took over because of whatever, like, whatever way they reshaped their world.

And they are in a benign way trying to prevent other cultures and species from making the same. mistake. It's a little involuntary for all that and kind of everything's being foisted in a way that doesn't always make me feel the most comfortable. But we don't know. Zosha doesn't know, or at least professes that the hive mind doesn't even really know anything about these beings at all or kind of the source of where it all came from. Joe, do you think in the history of this show, however long it runs, will we see visually a Kepler? A Keplerite? A Keplerite. Cleperian. Licking the donut at Gmail.com, if you're better at naming aliens than we are. The bar is pretty low right now. Um, will we see? No, I don't think we should. Clipwegian. I'm going to go with

clipwegian. Cliputian, like a Mancudian. Ooh, I like that. But Glasswegian is really good inspo. Um, I don't think we should. Science as a film is worse when you see the aliens, uh, in science. Well, the first time you kind of see the alien though is fucking gas. Birthday party footage aside. Oh my God. If the aliens want to come to Earth, they can only be seen kind of fuzzy and moving in at a birthday party down an alley in Brazil.

I can't remember where that footage was from exactly. He's using Spanish to talk to the children to tell them to move. So I think that's maybe not Brazil. But yeah, that's one of my favorite Joaquin Phoenix moments of all time. Honestly, that's one of my favorite Joaquin Phoenix performances. It's in science. A great movie that people should respect more often. On the resources front, so, okay, we get this information that they're sleeping in massive sports arenas to save resources.

Well, I mean, sports arena-ish. It's like a convention center, event center. Event center, I think is the right thread. Thank you so much. They said in the official pod that in the script it was a high school gymnasium. And basically they were like, dare to dream bigger. Like, we're going to go bigger. And not only that, we are going to fill this space with actual extras.

They did not digitally double anyone. These were actually like the people they hired. So that's their price tag moment, I would say, is upgrading from the high school gymnasium to this. To the monster truck rally venue. Exactly. And filling it with actual people and dogs. Also, while we're in that space, I just want to say that like, Zosha being like,

you can stay here with me casual. No big deal. If you want to sleep here, it's fine. While reclining on the double-sized bed roll, I was like, Zosha, you knew. You knew that that was going to work. That's very... You sultry minks. She's part of this whole thing. She knows what game she's playing. Oh, you want to just like, we're going to be really cool as you spooned me. Yeah. No big, no big deal. Kid in Cash. Yeah. The whole thing is extremely, extremely evolved, very cash. Very cash. very modern, postmodern, maybe even Joe. I mean, what is the high might have not one massive polycule? You know what I mean? I'm so glad you laid it out that way. You're absolutely right.

Also, I have to admit, look, the appeals of a cuddle puddle are not lost on me. Like, the whole situation does seem inviting in a way. You have to get over a certain, like, mental hurdle to get there. But it's like, we're just all in this together. You know, we're just all in one big glob. This is very L.A. Rob of you, honestly. I guess so. I mean, I think so.

Like if the idea is to save resources on heat, why are we sleeping so far apart inside of this? Why are we not cuddling together for warmth? This is a question that I have. Both physically and emotionally and metaphorically, Jill. Like, why are we also distant from each other and not using each other as our hearth? Using each other as our hearth at Gmail.com or Oz of Vanity License plate holder. Okay.

So the other thing I want to say, yeah, so bringing back. the money shot and I would say it is it is that arena full of of people that's where the money is and the the cool Gilligan verse shot of this episode I would say is the drops of the concentrate goo going into the water where initially you're like is that blood it's the question I often ask myself is that blood or is it pink lemonade turns out it's pink lemonade but you know for now until the pink lemonade needs some more seasoning and you know there's only so many places it can come from. All right.

Anything else that we haven't mentioned that you want to make sure we call out in this episode? I think just that Carol not only is becoming like dispositionally a little closer to Kumba in some ways in terms of her willingness to engage, but I think she's like using it as basically her new method of investigation, right? She's done the journalism. She's gone in with her camera into the dark factories and then like dug up all the secret.

She's done that thing. And she's kind of taking the note of what if you just asked these people who you are convinced cannot lie to you for any reason? Like, why wouldn't you just ask them any questions you had? More flies with honey than vinegar sort of thing. If it even is honey. Like, I think there's the honey. It's pink lemonade, a little sour, a little sweet. Yeah.

I mean, it's always too sweet if we're being honest about it. There's no such thing as pink lemonade that isn't too sweet. I really agree with you. Maybe that was the tell. When Zosha says, no, it's not too sweet. I know these people can lie now. I know that they could not possibly be telling the truth because it's always too sweet. Yeah, it's simply a no for me.

Raspberry lemonade, sure. Pink lemonade, absolutely. Strawberry lemonade, absolutely. But the pink, the ambiguous pink, it's just sugar. You know, there's not even any flavoring in there at that point. But yeah, I think the like direct question and answer method gets Carol, frankly, like, further than she's been at any point in this story. And it invites other complications because the, you know,

The only thing greater than her want to figure out the truth is like the deep, like, again, just like uncompromising loneliness that is slowly taking her over. And so where that puts her at the end of this episode is interesting. But like she kind of has to invite the hive mind in to really understand what its whole deal is. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a tricky, that's a very, very tricky proposition because, you know, the seduction is afoot. Okay. But Menususus is almost here.

And that presumably is what the finale will bring. to us. Anything else you want to make sure we cover inside of this episode. Well, how do you feel about that element, Joe? You know, we spent a lot of time with Carol. We've seen Minusos' whole journey from Paraguay to here. How do you feel about him finally showing up in Albuquerque in the finale? I'm excited. We've not gotten to see Minusos, like, have a relationship with anyone. So I'm really interested to see, you know, I do find that character very compelling. I do find that actor very engaging.

So I'm like really excited to see him have interactions as disappointed as he might wind up being with Carol and what she has succumbed to. The Kool-Aid, the pink lemonade that she's had some Sips on. Like I I'm excited for them to be in partnership or be at odds with each other. But I'm excited for that. You know, when Carol, like when Carol went to Vegas, like her scenes with Kumba were so interesting. So I do think that to that Frazier point, just like bumping these people up against each other in a cuddle bottle way or otherwise is, you know, is going to be fun and interesting to watch. Oh, wow. I hadn't even considered Minusos just joining the Matrix orgy that could be happening in the finale.

I think that's probably improbable, but. Seems like not what he is looking for. This is a man who is willing. His back is also in no shape for it. But well, the wounds will heal. But like, I think that the man who is willingly engaged in our corrupt or Panama's corrupt medical system, health care system. When he's like, yeah, give me that bill without any insurance to soften the blow. And here's my I owe you.

Yeah. Didn't really pay for it. That's all right. You know, we're softening in different increments. But he does take the ambulance. Like, he does. It's true. You know, he's taking some things.

Yes. I'm not begrudging at him. No, you got to do it. He's, we can't do this all on our own. Okay. I'm really excited for the finale. Same. This is going to be, I think, a slightly super-sized episode for us because as we mentioned,

we're also doing that mailbag portion of it. So that will come out. I believe the finale is dropping a little early next week because of the Christmas holiday. So our podcast will be up sort of as we're pre-recording it. So we won't be able to get your feedback after the episode. We won't have the official podcast to talk about and that sort of stuff because we're going to pre-record for holiday reasons. But that podcast will drop sort of right after that episode drops on Apple. And do let us know your thoughts on the finale to Licking the Donut at Gmail.com slash prestige TV at Spotify.com.

We're talking about maybe, you know, doing some additional pluribus content of some kind exploring that possibility. So we'll see how the finale hits. We did. We did talk about that. So yeah, maybe we'll do like a final final. all of your theories and feedback ideas. You know, we love to work over the holidays. No,

honestly, it's exciting. All right. Thank you to you, Rob Mahoney, for yes, ending all of my bits inside of this particular episode.

John would be so proud. Thank you to Donnie Beacham for his work on this episode. Thank you, Justin Sales, for his work on this feed. Stay tuned. So on Saturday, today's Friday,

this is going up, you know, because Donnie is an absolute, Maniac and the best this will go up today on Friday But the heated rivalry podcast that I recorded with Mallory early this week Should be going up on Saturday so that will be coming up on this feed Tomorrow and haven't gotten a sneak preview of some of Mallory's heated rivalry thoughts Recently Joe I'm I'm very excited to listen to this oh did you? Did you?

Are you tempted to are you tempted to watch heated rivalry rob what do you think? Oh I'm extremely tempted to watch. I think it's just going to be like, I got to get through this holiday crush and then we're going to have time to actually watch TV for me. I think heated rivalry is going to be on the list. The thing, as you know about Mallory, is if such a property exists as heated rivalry. If you are in Mallory's vicinity, people are just constantly asking her for her thoughts on a show like this. So now we get it as a consumer product. Now I can just plug in my like headphones and get both of your takes on the wrap up of the season. I can't wait. All right. So, uh, But that's it.

We said thank you to everyone. We told you what was coming. We covered this episode of television. Have a great weekend. We'll see you soon. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart?

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