The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Poker Face’ Episode 10 Recap

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

Just as the hook brings you back, Jo and Rob are back to discuss the great season finale of ‘Poker Face’! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league. And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA.

Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. A wheel going on all day. Hear what I say. I have a prayer to pray. That's really all this was. When I'm feeling stuck and need a buck, I don't rely on luck because the hook brings you back. Really are the fucking worst.

The Pressy's TV podcast feed, I'm Joanna Robinson, joining me today, fresh off. Bachelor at Bus. It is Rob Mahoney. Hi, Rob. I will take you to the Citadel, Joe. you the way out of this hellscape, really. I mean, that bus seemed like a rough hanged, if I'm being totally honest. Any souvenirs?

Did you take any souvenirs with you off the bus? We'll get into that. Okay, great. We are here to talk about the finale of Pokerface with, like, great joy and also great sorrow, because it means our time together is come to an end. Hopefully that Rob and I will come back together to record about another show, but we've had a nice little run on Pokerface here. Yeah.

The finale is titled The Home. hook, no question as to why, we know why, written by Ryan Johnson ever heard of him, and directed by Janice Bravo, who did the film Lemon and also Zola, a great film, a great weird ride, if you've not experienced Zola for yourself. So that is the finale today. Do you want one more spin through Charlie's roadmap before we go, Rob? We absolutely must, especially because, in this episode, they actually gave us a very convenient welcome to Atlantic City. It seems like they probably could have been doing that for us all along, but I'm glad we ended up there. Well, I had fun scrutinizing license plates.

All right. Frost Nevada is where we started. We find out on this episode. Frost Nevada is our opener, Albuquerque, Houston, Texas. Benjamin Bratt's already tired of this tour. The Milwaukee, Chicago area, Seneca Lake, New York, Tennessee, to New York, Colorado, just outside of Denver. And then we open in this episode in Frost about it, actually. We are in Denver. And then eventually we are in Atlantic City, New Jersey.

So that is essentially coast to coast is what we did, sort of in a curly key fashion. We don't have a ton of emails today, actually. We didn't get a ton of poker face emails. Maybe you guys will send them over after you've watched this finale. I did get an email and several tweets from people. who share my Achilles tendon here and have experienced or know someone who has experienced. I thought maybe I'd made this up, but apparently the window shade treatment is a thing that can happen to your hamstring.

God. So I don't know. Anyway. Sorry. I wish I didn't know it. No. Sorry, but not sorry. All right.

This week's episode, we've got Natasha Leon ever heard of her, right? We've been waiting for Benjamin Brat. We've been like, where is he? Turns out he was with us all along. Cliff LeGrand is here. Rod Perlman finally makes an appearance. The face himself as Sterling Senior. Simon Helberg returns as Agent Luca Clark.

Clay DeValle shows up as Charlie's sister, M. I don't know if it's Emily or Emma, but M. And then in voice only, Raya Perlman as Beatrix Hasp. one of the five families of Atlantic City, New Jersey. I can't wait to figure out who the other four are. I hope they're all named Perlman. Okay. So I just want to kind of go beat by beat through this episode.

Please. But maybe like overall, like do you want to give us an umbrella statement of your impressions of this finale round? I mean, we've been writing pretty high lately coming into this finale. And I have to say, this is a great episode of poker face on top of all that. and I think a pretty exceptional way to wrap up this season if I'm being honest

there's a lot of meat there's a lot to dig into there's a lot of exploration there are some surprisingly sensual moments in this episode there's really a lot going on so I hope

I hope we have enough time is my only concern is like the surprising sensuality like everything Benjamin Brad does I mean look he's he's a wounded dove in a lot of those motels

I just want to curl him up and nurture him back to health. Yeah, we're all looking for someone to watch Burn Notice with us, aren't we? What a vibe. Vern bonus is so much better if you have someone to watch it with you. What a freaking vibe. Like motel to motel, diner burger to diner burger, burn notice rerun to burn notice rerun. The guy knows how to live. All right, wait, hold on.

I'm doing some real-time research, some very important research. I thought Benjamin Bratt was one of People Magazine's sexiest men men alive. Did I make that up? I thought he could land of the cover one year. No, maybe not. Okay. Well, my apologies. Well, 2023. Oh, in 2001, he got sexy a single guy alive. So that's something, People magazine. Oh, I really thought, I really thought I remembered an old People magazine with Benger and Brad on the cover. Anyway, he's looking great in this episode. The shirts are tight. The goatee is groomed. The collars are open. The pompador is up.

And the blues traveler lyrics are flowing. So we're going to get to bed at a second. But we need to start with Ron Perlman, who also looks great in this episode. Snowy hair looking iconic. We open with a shot, even though Ryan didn't direct this episode, it's a mirror of the opening shot of the very first episode as we're sort of, I believe, the term is dollying down a hallway instead of down the hotel. Carpet, we are down the sort of linoleum floor of the Frost Nevada M.E.

office, enter Ron Perlman. We hear the same conversation we heard in the pilot, but we just hear it again from his side. Rob, how are you feeling? But Hellboy himself. I mean, it's great to see him. He does look great. The conversation, I have to admit,

plays pretty differently when you can see him. You know, I think they really use the menace of Ron Perlman's voice to very good effect in the pilot and giving you a specific impression of where he is. And in some ways, he is in that place. Like, he does want to murder Charlie. in this particular moment. So it's not exactly a misread,

but they're certainly playing into the way he sounds in a way where in this scene, it does play more as like genuine grief, like very sad seeing him in this moment, in this place, not even being able to identify his dead son. It hits different, to say the least. We've had some time eventually Sterling himself, will have had some time to digest everything that's going on,

but the wounds are still very fresh for him. He maybe does not know what a piece of shit his son was, but we'll soon find out perhaps. Then we get, as we've already alluded to, just a top-tier incredible montage of Benjamin Bratt, Cliff Legren, tracking Charlie through not every episode, but nearly every episode that we've seen her in.

Do you have a favorite moment? Mine was, wait, what do you mean Texas? That's my favorite part. That one is great, but honestly, any sprawled over the hood of the car eating situation? instant entry into the, you know, the movie food eating Hall of Fame. Yeah. He's like, Brad Pitt Notions 11 Who, you know?

It really has a similar energy, especially him just like gnawing on a beef rib at that Texas barbecue joint. Like, it's, it's, he's really working it. I'm surprised that barbecue joint is still operating. Don't you think, feel like it should have been shut down? Everyone is either dead or in prison? Like. Joe, you got a lot to learn about Texas barbecue.

You think murder could slow it down? Oh my God, I'm going to Texas this Friday, and you better believe I'll be going to Terry Blacks. Okay. I love this line when he's talking, when he's like bitching to Sterling about this assignment, which sucks. We find out a year. He spends a year tracking Charlie and eating over the hood of his car hanging out of motel rooms. And I love when Sterling's like, this is your job. And all you're telling you right now is that you're bad at your job.

And then a little detail that maybe most people picked up on, but just in case they didn't. He gets, Cliff gets a call from Matthew Parker. Matthew Parker is Noah Segan's character from the first episode, Sheriff Parker. So like, that is a dirty cop. Are we surprised? Frost Nevada is crawling with corruption. But anyway, he's the one who alerts, like it seems like he's been alerted Cliff this whole time as to like the moments where Charlie pops up around the country and alerts him to the fact that she's here,

well, he thinks she's dead and she's not. Anything you want to say about this horrible revelation about Sheriff Parker or anything else? Parker aside, I did like a little bit of an inversion for Ron Perlman here, where have you seen Kronos, the early Guillermo del Toro movie? Yes, yeah, yeah. So in that movie, Ron Perlman basically plays a version of the Benjamin Brat character here, Like the gopher lackey who's sent on this like wild goose chase is constantly frustrated with his boss,

constantly grumbling about it. And that we get an inversion of that role and that it's Benjamin Brad in that particular spot who's just, I mean, just chewing this thing up. Like it really, really just destroying it. I really enjoyed that dynamic. I really like their boss employee rapport, to say the least. To circle back to my People magazine blender.

Yes. I would say it's a blunder on their part. Thank you. I just, a relapse in journalism and journalistic integrity from People magazine, that fine institution, tracking the sexiest men alive year in, year out. So Charlie is checking out of the hospital. She knows everyone by name. You know, it's been two months. She knows everyone by name, of course.

That's typical Charlie. Typical Charlie to think that, given her sunny, optimistic outlook on life, that perhaps Obamacare would have floated her entire stay in the hospital. I love that the guy at the desk was like, you had a TV in your room. Like, what do you think this is? Okay, but then maybe this is the moment of sensuality you had in mind. The way that he is waiting for her outside the hospital, like a dream date, like leaned up against the hood of the car. Lavender Blue, which is usually a, well, it's a traditional song. It's a Burlive song.

You might know that from your Disney Collected City. That's where I know it from. but this is the Sammy Turner version, just oozing dream date, energy. Rob, how would you react if you walked out of the hospital? Benjamin Bratt was waiting for you that way? I mean, he said the words that everyone wants their date to say, which is trunk or cap, you know? Where do you want to start? Is that how you met your wife?

Is that the line you used? No comment on that. We're going to strike that one from the record. Some moves are not meant to be repeated. Fair enough. And then we need to talk about the audio clip that opened this episode, which is Benjamin Bratt's incredible recitation of the lyrics from Hook. Do you have them in front of you, Rob?

Do you want to do your recitation? I don't want to try to outdo Benjamin Bratt on this podcast. I really want to clear space for him. Let him have that moment because I really can't imagine anyone doing better than the spoken word-ass recitation that he just pops off the dome in this episode. especially when I believe one of the lyrics is the Rintin Tintin lyric and he says it with just gravitas

again I love this episode of television it's a great episode and a great moment because you know when you're watching it through I think a lot of people will probably have that you really are the fucking worst response that Charlie has in this moment but in retrospect

like this is his super villain monologue right Like this is his gloating moment. Like I have all of the ducks in a row. My plan is working to perfection. He's so far ahead of Charlie that she doesn't even realize that he's gloating yet. And that all of that just pops so perfectly

into place in retrospect. I mean, this is an incredible sequence. Just like front to back when they're on the road, getting from point A to point B. That could be a throwaway portion of the story on a lot of other shows. And here it is the episode. Like the whole episode

is Charlie and Cliff trying or getting from, I don't even remember where they started to Atlantic, the hospital to Atlantic City. Yeah, Denver. Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, the fact that his gambit of, like, getting her fingerprints on the gun, the fact that that works is wild. I think, you know, his gamble that she's not going to shoot him, like, that's a pretty, you know, good, like, a fairly surface read of Charlie's character. Like, she's probably not going to shoot him. I do like that we get the mention, though, of Natalie in this moment. So that when it comes to, back around at the end of the episode.

You know, we're like, oh, yeah, he did do that. And anything you want to say before we get to Sterling's proposition for her in the casino? I mean, how deep do you want to go now on the blues traveler of it all versus should we save that for later? Let's go. Do it. What do you want to say? Okay. So there's obviously the thing happening here of Cliff basically laying out the whole situation that's ahead of Charlie by using this.

song, which I have my suspicions as to whether Cliff would really be a jam band guy who would have all this in his head. But for narrative convenience, we're going to let that slide. But for those not familiar with the song, like, it is a song about how writing a catchy song is easy because you can trick people with like a catchy riff, like a catchy melody. You know, if you have enough of the trappings of honesty, that you can fool people. and there's that in the story and him tricking Charlie in this moment and then it's at the center of this episode

and it is the titular song of this episode and it seems a little bit notable that you have the show that's like a return to an inherently crowd-pleasing hit-making format and it would seem to suggest that it almost doesn't matter what happens in the plot of poker face

like that is kind of what is being communicated here that if you play the right series of dramatic chords, if you have enough charisma in the lead, just as the song suggests, that we are wired to watch it and to like it. And this is Cliff talking to Charlie, but it's Ryan Johnson talking to us. And am I losing my mind right now?

I love this read. I love how you watch television and that you think of the things this way. I thought a bit more like the hook being, and I think they even say it overtly, they might, but like when she has a moment to walk out and Sterling is banking on her curiosity to be the thing that hooks her back, right? And this is what happens again and again for Charlie throughout the season is like she gets involved because she's just like, what more thing? Like,

what's going on here? Right? So it's like, so he's certain that he has her. And so then Benjamin Bratt is certain that he has her, you know, on the hook. was sort of my interpretation of it, but I really like your meta read as well. I like the way that Sterling's proposition to her is a mirror, it's a direct mirror of Adrian Brody's right down to the offer of the drink and she gets a beer and all that sort of stuff. She even says, you know, like deja beer or whatever.

We subtly plant the seeds of nearby family that, you know, sort of drops in in a really slick way and in that, we in that moment, are not sure if we believe him that he's not threatening her family, right? We get the intro of Beatrix Hasp and the five families. And we get the cassette tape, which will play out for us later in the episode. And this is all classic poker face stuff right here, little seeds that are going to flourish as we go.

But the hook of this episode is different. And we've talked about this a couple different times the way they've deviated from that, like, bare bones format, which is show us the crime and then show us Charlie showing up to figure out who did it. That's not what we get because we get a loop back with Benjamin Brad

another montage. But anything you want to say before we get to our second, what an embarrassment of riches? A second Benjamin Brad montage in this economy? Like, anyway. I feel bad for complaining about the lack of brat to this point

because they really went above and beyond in this episode. I feel like they've more than made up for it with these multiple montages with him at the, really being the centerpiece character of this episode. And again, there's a benefit to the serialized nature of this show in that we get these fun little guest stars and stuff like that.

But it is very rewarding to have this payoff of Benjamin Bratt from the beginning of the season, the very first crime that we see paid off in this episode. and, you know, also Simon Helberg's back, like to have that, like, establish history with these various characters rather than Charlie, like, just drifting in the wind. Like, there's just something a little richer about that, you know.

And it does a great job this whole episode, to me. It constantly reinforces this idea that, like, we are looking at Charlie and we're following her around the country on these wacky adventures. And life keeps going on for everybody else, right? Like Cliff is on the road, living hard, having a miserable time. Charlie's sister, as she lays clear and we'll talk about,

hasn't heard from Charlie in years, but life goes on, she's doing fine. And then we kind of have this same lens applied to Sterling, too, who's framed as the big bad of this show based on one phone call in the first episode. And a year plus has gone by, and the idea that we would assume

he would show up in this finale being in the same place is crazy. Because he's had this whole journey of finding out what happened and gathering evidence, and really has had time to completely change his mind on the whole situation and what he wanted to do? A gentle piece of feedback for Sterling Senior.

Okay. Which is that when giving a gift, in order to set expectations of the right direction, the gift box should approximately match the size of the gift therein. And he gets like a whole ass hat box to put, and packing peanuts to put a name tag, a cute little novelty name tag inside a hat box. And that's where things go badly for him. Because if he had chosen a smaller box, Cliff would not have been able to put the gun in the box. It was a beautiful box, though.

You see that ribbon on that thing? I did. Beautiful purple color. Loved it. Gorgeous. It also almost looked like maybe there should be cognac in there. Okay. Benjamin Brad.

Montage number two. Before we get to montage number two, we get this phone call, right? Which is essentially a monologue about dogs and loyalty. And I just want to shout out in the week after the premiere of the premiere of Daisy Jones on the Six on Amazon Prime. Something that I am like very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very adamant about is that people consider listening to the Daisy Jones on the Six audiobook in which Benjamin Brat plays a character named Graham and I was just like taking, like,

Benjamin Bratt should do all the audiobooks is how I feel. He is, his voice in this monologue, I was just like, I think the second time watching through I was doing something and he was monologuing and I was like, oh, I'm taken back to listening to that audiobook that I loved so much. He's so good in that role. And then it's just a great little, again, and this is a great writing from Ryan, like a great little monologue about dogs and loyalty. What did you think, Rob?

I thought they did a great job of layering in, like using the repetition in this case, the constant kind of circling back to layer in all of that resentment that's building. Again, for a relationship that we are assuming is fine. Like, you know, like obviously they're on the same page because they're not on Team Charlie, so therefore they must be aligned. The way they build that up, I thought was really clever. I thought it creates a great dynamic in this episode. It obviously sets up this whole like, not only how catch them, but this episode is kind of a who done it in terms of like we see the gunshot before we know what happens and who actually fired it. So you do get that mystery and that reveal in a different way.

But it really does just seed a much more complex and interesting relationship, between Cliff and Sterling, then I think we ever would have anticipated coming out of the end of episode one. Right. The Rea Palmer's here. We find out that Cliff really wants a boat. Great stuff.

Love that for him. Again, that feels like very rusty in Ocean's 11 vibes to me. But the music that we get, I already mentioned one Mr. Burl-Lives earlier in the episode, and I think it's kind of, I don't know if it's intentional, but it feels very, like, layered and hooky, that we got to,

a song Lavender Blue that a lot of people identify with Burl Lives covered by someone else early in the episode. Here we get Bob Dillon's, Don't Think Twice, It's All Right, covered by Mr. Burlives. And it's just like a really funny, it's a really funny, it's a great cover. And I love this, I mean, but it's almost like Johnny Cash doing hurt. Like it's just like a really incongruous combination of like the very evocular jolly Burlis. Most people know Burr Lives from like Christmas music. For him to do, don't think twice it's all right. I don't know the circumstance of this cover, but I love that it exists.

And I love how Bob Dylan's lyrics sound so different when Burr Lives sings them, you know, when he says like, honey and babe and I'm a traveling on and all this sort of stuff, stuff that like sounds kind of natural in Bob Dylan's intonation. You're just sort of like, this is so weird. And like there's just like that level of chi. I don't know, like, lounge singer cheesy, which is not necessarily what I would apply to Burl Lives, but just like in the way that he's singing it, that feels right in a casino setting, that feels right in the vibe of the show.

Like, it's just a perfect, a perfect choice of music here. We might need to make a master playlist for the soundtrack of this show. And especially, like, I mean, the closing songs for most of these episodes are just absolute bangers. This one, you get a Neil Young track that we can talk through at the end if we want to. but the way those work, again, in conversation with the episodes themselves, as frankly, just like a great road-tripping playlist if you just wanted to cue these things up.

Like, I think you'd have a great time and a great vibe for your trip if you just rolled through the poker face soundtrack. Yeah, especially like when you get little, like regional flavors, like the Texas flavor or whatever else. All right, we get, again, speaking of, there's a lot of montage in this episode,

we get the wrong number montage. And I love this because we are not, we're giving no context as to what's going on. Charlie's just calling around because she has most of the number memorized. Like, listen, she might be a superhero, and we all agree that that's true. But she does not have a photographic memory. And so she has most of the number of memories. It wasn't, didn't the card got smudged, right, at some point?

Yeah, a card got smudged. Yeah, we might need some, like, detail on some of these little vignette scenes. Like the woman who's sitting at her desk texting with a bunch of emojis, I need, like, an enhance that zoom in. I need to see what's going on in her life. But it turns out that Charlie's trying to get hold of Agent Luca Clark, who is already on the scene. And I love that he has been promoted from Uber for Stoolies. Thanks to Charlie's tip. It looks like he checked.

Was it FBI at FBI.Gov? Is that where she sent that email? Either that or Oprah at Oprah.com. One of the two. I don't know which one he was responding to. When he checked the email. And he sort of cracked that case from the first episode and it got him a promotion, but also him in the mood to help Charlie out here. Really big, speaking of music, really big question for you here, Rob.

Okay. When Agent Luca Clark refers to this as the Franz Ferdinand of Mom hits, is he talking about the Explorer or is he talking about the early odds, dare I say one hit one. France Ferdinand. Well, not the Explorer, right? The assassination target. France Ferdin, oh my God. Isn't Franz Ferdinand an explorer? I think you're thinking of Ferdinand Magellan?

I think I am. Do we leave this in or do we cut it? That's up to you and your shame, Joe. I think we should leave it in. There's usually a policy theory that you don't let yourself look stupid, but I was so proud of my Franz Ferdinand joke that I forgot that I met. of World War I history. All right, we're leaving it in.

So help me out here. I don't even remember the line now. What is the line? The Franz Ferdin and not the Ferdin and Magellan, but the France Ferdin and Bob cases. Okay. It's got to be the assassination target, the World War I historical assassination target. That makes a lot more sense. I mean, it depends on how deep you want to get into like early 2000s alternative rock, you know?

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if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-5-45-5-5-5-4-4-4-2. or visit zepbounds.lily.com. I think it's very sweet that Luca wants to help her. As we find out, maybe it's not entirely altruism.

Maybe it is career advancement. But also in terms of like that's the style that we're looking for throughout the season, we get this like cool for no reason split screen sort of moment as they're talking to each other. What did you think of that? Love those flourishes. And really work well in a way that again, it's like, why are we not doing? stuff like this even more often. This is a great episode in terms of showcasing.

In some spots, really by the book, dramatic, cinematic shooting, right? Like Benjamin Brad and Natasha Leon in the car, she has the gun on him, zoom in on the gun, get the reaction shot on her face. We don't need to see her actually put down the gun or take her finger off the trigger. Like, you see it in her eyes what she is going to do, or in this case, not going to do. And then you get some things like this. Like, let's play around a little bit. Let's explore the form.

Let's split the screen if and when we want to. I think you have room to do that in the show basically as much as you want. And you probably could do it even more in this episode. But I'm glad we get the montage as we do. I'm glad we get those kinds of display techniques. And I think that if you watch Zola, you'll see that Jeannie Zorro, like this is a thing that she excels at. I also love the line and I know I have this reference, right?

When he says, I've been over this tape like Gene Hackman. I was such a good line An allusion to the conversation And like It just felt like As I said here Shipping these two Whether or not

That's where the show intends to go I'm just sort of like The fact that he can drop Like you know that Charlie loves that movie Right Like that's such a Charlie Brand movie And so it's just like a perfect

Little drop In the conversation there And it's just a show That we appreciate and admire Citing its references As you know The seminal text of our time You get a Goodfellas reference in this episode.

Yes. You get the conversation and you get Byrne noticed. Those are the big three. Yeah, plus Ferdinima Chilin. It's all happening. All right. And then Charlie goes home, right? A little payoff to that earlier drop.

I love, there's a, the casting Clay DeVille, again, as I mentioned last week, this is a reunion from but I'm a mature leader of these two, like a really important movie at the start of their careers. The casting is great, but what I love is the little details about how this is definitely like the home that Charlie grew up in, right? And especially for a character, and this is such a big part of the episode, but a character who has been without a home for all this season and drifting around. And, you know, what I wrote down on my notes is like, you can't go home again. Like she tries to go home.

She knows the secret way in. I love the part where she's coming up the stairs from like the basement. and she, like, uses her hands, which is very much, like, I grew up in this home as a child. It's a very childlike way to go up a flight of stairs, right? Just that tiny detail where I'm like, yeah, her sister lives there now, but this is the home that they grew up in. But how deeply unwelcome she is, and not with, like, not with as much rancor as you would expect, given, like, the parting conversation that they have that is so important about the kind of, the value that

sees on her sister, but how unwanted she is in this particular home environment. What did you think about this? It's a great sibling relationship and like a very lived in but burned down sibling dynamic. That part felt very honest to me

and just a really good portrayal of that kind of dynamic. But really, this whole section of the show to me illustrates the cost of Charlie's lifestyle, right? Like if you're living on the road, what and who are you leaving?

behind. And in this case, like, Charlie leaves the hospital. She knows everybody's name, as you mentioned, Joe. Like, she knows the nurses. She knows the other patients. She goes home, and she doesn't even know her own niece's name. Yeah. You know, like, this is kind of the life that she has, to, to, M's point, chosen to lead. To be fair, it's Shasta. So, like, I mean, who needs to know Shasta's name? Who needs to know Shasta? But we do need to know a little bit more about Shasta's choice of daytime movie viewing. I feel like this is something we should probably explore a little bit. One, I mean, come on, just in the whole. Just in the hook, you're watching hook.

I love it. I love this show. But also, I seem to recall from your appearance on the big picture talking Spielberg that you were a bit of a hookhead. Like, hookhead is strong. I just don't think it deserves,

okay, Rob, where are you? Let's unpack it. I find it pleasant and nostalgic and probably like fun and enjoyable, like, flawed Spielberg is kind of my range. I don't think that's incorrect. But I think, and when it comes to flawed Spielberg, it doesn't belong in the bottom of the list.

No, definitely not. I think it gets a weird amount of hate, especially. I think it, and especially because I think it came before we saw, like, what other depths, Spielberg could mind? You know what I mean? Good and bad, you know? Like, before we saw Ready Player 1, and you saw Hook. So I don't think it belongs anywhere near the bottom of the list. And, you know, I think I'm a little older than you are, and I think that, like, I will cop to nostalgia.

and I'll cop to the way in which like bangorang and all this sort of stuff and Rufio, et cetera, et cetera. Just like made it into. Can we get a Rufio drop in here, please? Like, let's just get a Rufi-O! And also we cannot ignore one of the finest performances from one Glenn Close in that film. So it's so funny. I was just talking about Hook with Jeff Loveness, who was a screenwriter in Ant Man Quantumania, and he was talking about how they thought about Hook

when they thought about Kang and Scott Ling's daughter. If you haven't seen him in Quantumania, this is all you can skip ahead, right? But he was joking about how, so in the film Hook, Jack, run home, Jack, Jack, who is Peter Pan's son, gets so enamored of Hook that he winds up dressed up in a little, like,

hook costume, right? He's got the wig and he's got the outfit. And so Jeff was joking about how they had like one version of the screenplay where they were joking that like Scott would show up and Cassie Lang would have like a little Kang mask on like had been fully hooked by King. Honestly, a better version of that movie probably. Possibly. But yeah, hook it means something to a certain micro generation. Myself included. I don't mean to distance myself from it. And I found different. Would you call

yourself a hook head? Where would you put hook? I would not. But I do agree. I feel like it suffers from the fact that, like, for a point in time, it was almost like a meme response for the kind of Spielberg people didn't like. And that over time, you're right. Like, we have moved the lines so much in terms of what Bad Spielberg is, that Hook looks pretty good by comparison.

Midling. Midling, Spilberg, Lower Middling. A great Robin Williams. Deloiful. You know, regretful dad, bad dad performance. So there you go. Okay. Also, maybe, I don't know if this was a nod, or maybe this is just me reading.

into it, but we've talked about Spielberg's Colombo Association before. And directing in that show, I wonder if there's maybe even like a little bit of a hat tip there. Oh, interesting. And yeah, the double hook is really good. We do, in this final

conversation between Charlie and her sister, she gets a pair of sneakers. That was very nice. She still has to wear that interesting dress, but, oh, also, I do need to shout out the way she snuck herself out of the casino. Natasha Leon's impression of a bachelorette was fantastic.

Along those lines, I do have an update on superhero watch that I am ready to concede the point that Charlie is a superhero. Rob, this makes up for me making an idiot of myself just a few minutes ago. You know, it's been a big journey, but in this episode, she gets a power ring, and it glows, it takes down the bad guys. she's told this is a talisman, it will take you out of this place. If that's not a call to adventure,

I honestly don't know what one is. And it's shaped like a dick. But neither here nor there. It is. I mean, maybe it is when you find it in your child's curled up in your child's doll's hair, but, you know, I don't know that. Does the shape really matter?

They have this parting conversation. There's a bunch of meat, as you said earlier in this moment. What you ruined with your truth and bullshit is a nice little juicy drop that hopefully is like one of those seeds that will flower later in the series, right? What did Charlie do? What did Charlie ruin with her truth and bullshit? Who did she tell? I mean, like, it seems like something to do with her dad, perhaps, but like told the truth about something and in the process ripped their family apart.

And it seemed like, I'm just extrapolating, but it seems like a circumstance where Charlie's being blamed for being the messenger of someone else's, like, you know, shady behavior. And then she says, you got a good heart. You choose to spend it on strangers and breeze on down the highway, right? And I love that assessment, right, of Charlie from what we see. And we do. We see her show up. She's just so warm and open with everyone.

She's making friends with, you know, barbecue pit masters and old-age pensioners and all the sort of stuff like that. But it's all temporary. and it's all, you know, just for the span of this episode. And so I love that call out, and especially as it will resonate down to the very end of this episode as Charlie makes her choice. Yeah. Anything you want to say? I mean, just that they call out that choice pretty explicitly here.

Like, Em has this line about, like, you choose to be out there, you know, swimming free, cool and breezy. Like, this is a life that you are actively choosing. And to end this episode, with her literally straight up actively choosing it and, you know, you know, no uncertain terms. It's just, you know, again, that's just putting it, putting a nice little bow on this really good episode. Well, and it's a great call-out because as the episodes, as the season starts, this is like, oh, Charlie's on the run and she has no other choice.

Yes. And though we get a sort of really interesting rinse and repeat establishment of the new premise same as the old premise sort of thing, it still feels like more actively her choice than it even was when she smashed her cell phone the first time. I'm going to talk about that cell phone, of course, because we have been all season. Okay. What else? Anything?

Oh, I mean, I don't need to get too personal. I already sort of basically asked you about your courtship rituals, but do you have siblings, Rob? I do. I have a brother. Are you older or younger? I'm younger. Okay. I'm also the younger.

And so, I mean, my read is that Emma is the older sister. And this gave me, yes. As you said earlier, this is just like a very authentic. I am very much the Charlie and. this in my family dynamic. A hundred percent. I mean, down to the fact that I'm glad you flag the stair technique, because that is literally what I did on my childhood stairs and probably would still do if I ran up

them. So, you know, something's never changed. Right, but, like, you wouldn't do it in a new house, but you might do it if you're in, like, even the same angle of stairs, but you would do it in your childhood home. Exactly. Then Charlie does that thing that I hate that she does where she talks to the murderer about the case. But it then leads to one of those moments that we like where someone knows about Charlie's superpower and is trying to work the angles around it.

And Cliff is really good at deflecting into questions and all that sort of stuff. Also, I mean, to our earlier point, looks incredible on a boat. Like the establishing shot of him on the boat. It's just really good. He had the boat wardrobe just locked and loaded. He knew what he was doing. Yeah. He's like, I got my dress whites.

I'm good. I'm good to go. Charlie will eventually smash another cell phone the phone that she got from Sterling by the way but like Cliff tosses the phone in the water

right like he is also ready to unplug and sail the seven Cs too bad we didn't get our like Cliff spin off of him just like boating from town to town maybe it's not too late you know we don't put two final a point on his story I don't think

as you say the ring glows. It's very interesting though. I was expecting the ring to like do you feel like the ring led her to the poker chips? I was sort of trying to connect the dots between the ring glowing and her cracking

the case. Somehow the ring had a black light in it? Well that's what I thought but then she didn't but then she used the mini black light that she found in the bag to light up the chips. I thought it was going to be a black light penis ring for whatever reason and that that was going to like help her figure out.

about the poker chips, but then she used this other blacklight. So it was a little hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. It's where you can break down the blacklight situation if you want to for us. Or Oprah at Oprah.com or FBI at FBI.com. Wherever you want to send those queries, I think we're open to it. Luca will be on the case. Luca shows up with a tape recorder. Charlie has to bail out into the water.

We have the established information that she's a strong swimmer. She's a strong swimmer. And Lucas shows up with, I love thinking about Ryan or the Zuckermans or anyone on the show sitting down to write an episode. And a lot of times they have these moments that are very much like, well, what will a shitty nitpicker say? Or what will someone who like wants to call out a Mary Sue say or whatever? So it's like, well, we got to say something about the fact that Charlie can swim. Charlie don't surf, but Charlie can swim. You think there could be some scar tissue there?

I can't imagine where it would come from. But, you know, it makes one wonder. I don't know where Ryan would have encountered that. Is that like something that happened on Knives Out or something? I don't know. But Cliff's eye is all fucked up. Our beautiful, beautiful boy. It's jacked up.

It's not looking good. There's a terrible close-up on it. It's so fucking uncomfortable to look at. And basically he gets Charlie Nails him for Natalie's murder. Luca shows up. And justice for Natalie and her shitty husband. Great. Love to see it. The penis cloud comes through. Through a penis ring. Who knew?

Yeah. Wow. That's a nice penis bookend to this season of television. And then Luca and Charlie meet up in a where else but a diner, right? And I love the shot we get. So like, Luca shows up. He's in her car. He's there to drop off the car and exchange blah, blah, blah. And there's another car there to take him away. But before we get to Charlie in the diner, we get the camera goes through the kitchen. so we get to see the pots of coffee and all this sort of stuff and it just gives us such a strong on the road again diner vibe to what's happening now for Charlie. There's big like, does Charlie know how the world works energy

in this scene as well? And trying to understand why she is or is not being arrested in which she basically supposes the reason she's not being arrested is because they're friends. And honestly, she's kind of right. Is she not? I mean, I like that he's like, what? He pumps the brakes.

He doesn't say no, but he doesn't say yes. You know what I mean? He does not. But I mean, like that is kind of part of it, you know, ultimately. And part of the reason she gets out a lot of stuff is like she does make friends with people. She does get out of some of these jams as a result of it. It may not pay her hospital bills exactly, but, you know, may get her out of her an arrest warrant or two. He once again offers her a job.

And she turns him down because she knows that workplace romances are a bad idea, right? And she wants a future with him. Big offering Veronica Mars a job at the FBI energy from that whole gesture, you know, like applying for a job at the FBI energy. Like, let's keep Charlie independent. But Veronica would like flip him off, right? Whereas, you know, and he says keep his number. And she hasn't memorized, but for one digit.

And then, much like Ron Perlman in the first episode, Rea Perlman gets her phone moment. Talk me through this. Okay, so again, I need to not assume that people listening have our same level of cultural references. So I just want to, for people who don't know, Raya Perlman, I don't know why you wouldn't, but if you don't, choose on Cheers. Yeah, second Cheers alum this season. Pretty important. Carla from Cheers is in the film, Matilda with her husband, Danny Davido.

So that's Raya Perlman. What a full picture. What a life. Don't you think I? I think I did it. We led with Carla. if we didn't leave with Danny DeVito. Beatrix and the five families on speakerphone called Charlie.

What did you think of this, like, sort of echo of the Ron Perlman appearance? And, I mean, on the one hand, I have to think, like the double hook that they're having fun with Ron Perlman and Rea Perlman is like names and stuff like that. But also, Rea Perlman has the kind of voice that really works on the phone, like Ron Perlman's works on the phone and sells who. this character is. Absolutely. And it can be both ways, right? Like, just like this can be both a soft reboot, as you mentioned, like kind of getting Charlie back on the road again, and you're also getting some narrative closure with a lot of these threads, right? Like, you're also getting to a place in terms of character development with Charlie that we haven't had episode to episode, that has really been kind of bookend, beginning of season to end, and we are in kind of a different place with her

and what her feeling is. And as far as, like, lines go setting up subsequent seasons, how long do you think you can keep it up is a pretty direct call out, but I have to say, like, I really dug this season. I feel like there's a lot more road here. They could probably keep soft rebooting this thing a lot. I mean, there's five families to go through. I was going to, like, exactly. I was like, oh, I'm glad they, I mean, how many other actors named Pearlman are there, but

we'll see. Beatrix mentions that Sterling was a little behind the times. I'm glad someone mentioned it. Cassette tapes and Benjamin Brad to get. the job done and she's like we're a fully modernized crime syndicate. I feel like to get out of you know these scrapes in the future

Charlie might want to try to watch more burn notice, right? Like Michael Weston of bird notice fame can like make a bomb out of some yogurt. So you know, as a spy. You know, it's really all about a little duct tape here, a little hardware store trip there. I'm glad to know you also have Michael Weston impression. Okay. So

anyway, well-be, let's all of us find out together. So it's Charlie in a nice little meta, how many seasons

is Peacock going to renew? Let's find out. Smashes the cell phone again, making the choice to go off the grid and back on the road.

Yeah. Beatrix calls her ruinous, just like her sister did. It's like, it's one of those, it's a little too tidy. These two characters wouldn't use the same word

sort of thing. It's like a little thing that twigs for me. But it's such an interesting perspective on Charlie to call her effect or impact ruinous because it's only ruinous for the bad actors that she's met along the road for everyone else. She's Lady Galahad. She's a protector.

She's, you know, looking out for the marginalized people that might be easily taken advantage of and her empathy, along with her talisman ring, is her superpower. Do you want to take me through this Neil Young song, walk on, that? plays us out. A great way to play out the season, just in terms of, from a pure musical taste perspective, it's right in with, you know, themes on the road, the kind of exact vibe you're looking to cultivate here. But also, like, that song is a very, like, Neil Young's message to his haters' song,

and the crux of it is, like, controlling the things you can control, blocking out all of the rest. And so Charlie, effectively, like, divorcing herself from the world, getting back out on the open road, feels pretty on point in a way that, again, some of the other. episode ending songs if you want to go back through also had kind of similar vibes like they even episode one for example

we get this wings song Junior's Farm I'm not a big wing are you a big wings person? No I mean my Paul interest ends at a certain point I mean he's actually had some some decent solo hits

but wings is not really my jam typically this one however okay wait pause yeah who's the who is the best beetle Rob Loney that's a very complicated question You're going to put me on the spot like that.

Yeah. Yeah. I've had a whole arc on this in which I grew up, Paul. Yeah. I came into, wait, maybe actually it's George. And then arched back into, wait, is George kind of a piece of shit? I'm back team Paul. So that's where I am right now.

Okay. Where have you ended up? Where have you been? I've been a loyal George person my entire life. All right. We got some stuff to talk through. But yeah, take me through some of these other songs, starting with the Wings song.

I mean, I think that's the most interesting one. You get this Wings Cut that opens with a poker game and ends with like basically a message about getting the hell out of Dodge. And if that's not what the first episode or kind of the arc of Charlie's backstory is about, then honestly I don't know what is. And so for those to be the bookends here, along with just like some good jams along the way in terms of some of these other episodes, I like the way they set those things up.

I don't want to like lose side of the fact that though Ryan, created this show and we've been like eager to point out his various credits when he's directed when he's written an episode that this show is also like co-show run by the Zuckerman. So like I don't want to erase them at all. And I don't know that I've done the best job at making sure to give them all the credit that they deserve. But I do have to say that like perhaps we should look at something because the opening lyrics to walk on, as you mentioned, owed to your haters.

I hear some people talking me down, bring out my name. pass it around. They don't mention happy times. They do their thing. I'll do mine. I wonder, do you think Ryan Johnson has a playlist of like, fuck the haters songs? I mean, if anyone would,

that guy has kept it in, he's kept it pretty buttoned up, you know, I will say one one-off like murder plot of your former boss in a TV episode here or there. But other than that, like I feel like he's kept it pretty polished. Yeah, that tight ship. It's true. All right. Well, that's it for the season of

poker face, I think. Anything else you want to say, Rob? I mean, one last thing. We actually did get one follow-up from an early listener email who wondered, are we ever going to hear the third thing that Sterling Sr. told Sterling Jr., and we actually did in this episode. We found out the crucial third thing, which was keep Beatrix Hasp out. The first two things, if you don't remember, or keep the carpets clean, always good advice. Keep Casimir Cain happy, which, I mean, that one's kind of busted at this point. But you probably should keep the five families out. It just seems like good advice. Too late for Charlie to keep them out.

They are fully in her business. They will be chasing her, presumably around the country. I wonder if we'll ever get aware in the world is Charlie Kale season. But that's it for now. This has been a pure joy. What a delight. This episode and Epria episode of this season of the Prestige Poker Face covers has been produced by Steve Allman.

Please, Rob, Steve, anyone is listening? remembers all the times that I said something smart and forget the time that I confused France, Vernon, and Mithra, and Magellan. Or think of it fondly and endearingly. I would appreciate it. You got it. All right.

Bye.