The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Presumed Innocent’ Episode 7 With Bill Simmons. Plus, an Interview With Director Greg Yaitanes.

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Bill Simmons joins Jo and Rob as they take the stand to recap the seventh episode of ‘Presumed Innocent.’ They open by discussing whether the show will ultimately change the ending from the book-turned-film, the surprising news that Apple renewed it for a second season, and some of Bill’s hottest takes on the legal drama (1:57). Along the way, they rave about Peter Sarsgaard’s performance as Tommy Molto in the penultimate episode, and reveal their predictions heading into the finale (20:33). Later, they’re joined by multi-episode director and executive producer Greg Yaitanes to talk about directing Jake Gyllenhaal, which character he thinks is the show’s secret weapon, bringing the stylized dream sequences to life, and much more (40:25). Hosts: Bill Simmons, Joanna Robinson, and Rob Mahoney Guest: Greg Yaitanes Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson and I've read every book in Georgia R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller and I have also read those very heavy books. Years ago, we hosted a Game of Thrones podcast called A Storm Spoilers, and we're thrilled to head back to Westrose to cover the second season of House of the Dragon on the Trial by Content feed. We'll be using our book knowledge to dive deep into each episode and answer your lingering questions. So send us a raven every week to Trial by Content at Gene. mail.com. Follow and subscribe to trial by content on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast to

join us on Thursdays where these two will explain to me which Targaryen is right. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, market peach, apricot, rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm here

with Rob Mahoney. We have a very special guest. Bill Simmons is here. Hi, Bill. How are you doing? Yeah, I invited myself. I was listening to your last episode. on five and six, and I was like, I just got to join. I'm in. There's no good TV right now. So this show, I think, has filled some sort of weird void. I don't know if anybody really loves this show, but everybody kind of likes watching it. And the fact that it's once a week and old school, I think really helps the show.

I love it. I want to get your sort of big picture take, because you promised me some hot takes. I want to hear all of them. Just really quickly want to mention that later in this episode, we have an interview with director. Greg Yateness, who directed the middle chunk of the season. He directed a bunch of those episodes, and we'll be talking to him about all of those. So stay tuned for that. Bill Simmons, you promised to come in hot.

What is your hot presumed innocent take? Before we get to the takes, this is a late-breaking turn in this season, you coming on our show. Do you have an alibi for the nighting question? I can't be ruled out. I know. Well, you know what's funny? I really liked episode seven. So after five and six, I'm like, I'm coming in so hot.

This show is so dumb. I don't know why I like watching it. But man, they're just milking it along. And then seven, I was like, oh, yeah. I thought seven was good to be. The issue is, it's like with every David E. Kelly show, which you've mentioned before, where it's these little red herring things to get you to the next episode where it's like, we're taping a pod with Rob.

Uh-oh, he's clutching his heart. Is Rob dead? We're back next week. Oh, no, Rob's fine. he's having a soda. In fact, I'm better than ever, it turns out. May we all be so lucky as to have an electrical event. It came out improved, yeah.

So they're basically taking a movie that basically already existed 35 years ago and doing the TV version of it with some red herrings. So there's one. And then the other thing was we know how this ends allegedly from the movie in the book. And yet as I'm watching this, and I know Rob is doing the naive. Nah, nah, nah, putting his hand over. I'm trying to one here. And I'm not going to spoil it.

But the more I watched it. in a, I'm wondering, are they going to veer from the book slash movie? So now I'm watching this going, oh, I thought I knew how this ended. But maybe I don't know how this ended. Maybe they're going to veer. They have you exactly where they want you, basically. Like, this is something that, you know, Chris Ryan, who has also seen the movie from the start, he's like, they're going to change the ending. Rob was like, I think they're going to change the ending.

And I was so firm. I was like, they're not changing the ending. And yet Rob doesn't know what the ending is. I don't. But it's just like, why would you make it to do? do the same story. You know, you have to come over some spin, and this isn't the kind of story that has a whole fresh new context that would make it feel new and modern. And so, what are they changing, if not that? Well, the story's so old, they kept the characters

named Rusty. And there hasn't been anyone named Rusty in like 30 years. The last Rusty was like 1991. So, yeah, so that's what makes me think maybe they kept the ending. That's Brad Pitt's character at Ocean's 11, isn't it? Isn't he a Rusty? Is that true? They don't make those movies anymore, though. It's true. It's true. Okay, listen. So episode seven is the witness.

And is the thing, okay, which features, I think, the most aggravating resolution of the cliffhanger, which is the aforementioned Bill Camp's character, Ray has a heart attack, and then he's just fine it back in the courtroom by the end of the episode. He's fine. It wasn't a heart attack. It was just some indigestion. Absolutely aggravating. And then that is counterbalanced by, we get Jake, we get Rusty on the stand, being

cross-examined by Tommy Maltow. And that is like the moment that we've been kind of waiting for. Bill, is that what turned the show around for you a bit? No, you left out the other thing. Well, first of all, what's better than somebody representing themselves in trial? Like, what's a better gimmick?

Disaster. Nothing. The answer is nothing. I had a question about that. If we hadn't had this miraculous recovery from Ray where he's able to get back in the courtroom and what I guess is like 48 hours from the time he collapses. Yeah.

What happens when Rusty is on the stand representing himself, but also wants to object to a line of questioning? Are you allowed to object from the witness stand? Was Maya, like... She was already out by the time he actually took the stand. Does Ray come back? Is it like the NBA where when you renounce somebody's free agency rights, then they can no longer come back?

Because Ray gets to, I just, I couldn't figure that part out. You have to wait until January 15th to resign Ray. Because our instincts when we watch these shows, I mean, there's so many reasons why legal things, throwers crush. But one of them is, you're just in that mindset of what would I do, what would I do? What would I do if I'm accused of this? What would I do if I was the spouse? What would I do if I was the parent of the victim? Like, you're just, you're just jumping into the heads of all these people. And when he's like, no, I'm going to be my own attorney. I'm like, I think that's what I would

do if I was resting. I think it's like, it's basically here we call in the NBA and me and Rob's world hero ball. Oh, sure. You just hear a ball. You got a clear out. Clear out. I got this. And I don't know.

I kind of liked it, Joanna. There's the smart play, and then there's the play that gives you the most personal control. And we clearly know where Rusty falls in that. Well, I mean, I do think it's a, it's a preposterous thing for someone to do. And I think it is absolutely something that Rusty would do because he's got this megalomaniac like, I'm the only one who can do it sort of attitude. And it's like, it's perfect for him to just.

blunder. I mean, he's been blundering. Do you have a favorite rusty blunderbillan? Is it putting the bike in the back of his car? No, he's like one of those terrible coaches in a playoff series. They are just like, oh, why are you doing this? No, this is a David E. Kelly show. I mean, of course he's going to decide to take the stand himself. Like, he's playing, this is David E. Kelly karaoke.

How many TV shows and movies has he done at this point? Like, one million. Right. And how many times has he been in a courtroom? and he's probably done this in other shows. Like I didn't, didn't you say in the last, last episode, he had three TV shows going at the same time during an era when we made 22 episode seasons and he was running three different shows. Alan McBeal, the practice in Boston Public.

Like, think about that. Insane. It's insane. Yeah, absolutely insane. So for him, like, doing an eight episode presumed innocent, it's got to be like a walk in the park. Oh, yeah. Well, I guess my question is like, we sort of addresses at the beginning of the season of like,

why do it if you're not going to change the ending? I have to imagine that for him, it's just, I was looking back through some interviews of sort of like what he said about why he did it. He said, he gave the old, like, I wanted more time to delve deeper into the characters. I love the movie, but I wanted time to dive into the psyche of the characters.

I think seven episodes in, we can mostly agree that that, other than I would say, my favorite Tommy Moldo, I don't think we've gone much deeper on the characters than we went in the movie. No, because it's an Apple show. This is what Apple shows are.

They're just surface level, perfectly cast. Oh, is the hijack, the hijack of legal thrillers? Yeah, it's just like this, it's this hodgepodge. You kind of know it. You can look at the screen grab of the cast and be like, oh, I get what the show is going to be. But like, I feel like it's just, and I said this before, but I'm just going to repeat myself,

I just think it's too irresistible for Davy D. Kelly, king of the legal thriller, to not get a crack at presumed it is it one of, the more famous legal thrillers. Well, I'm older than both of you. I remember when this book came out. Yeah. And there's only been a couple times since I've been alive and cared about movies when a book came out and was a sensation and then was clearly going to be a movie.

Because I remember the same thing with the firm. That was another one where it was like, this is clearly, like, you could be like, it's going to be Cruz. Like we were cast in a movie and nobody, they had any made it yet. So in this one, way back when it was like, oh my God, they got hair. and forward. Like it just, you know, and it just felt like one of the biggest book turns into movies of the 80s, basically. And I don't really feel like we have that anymore. Now it feels like it's pushed toward like Amazon summer TV series that my daughter watches.

Well, yeah, the summer I turned pretty is definitely like something like that. But yeah, I think a lot of it is like that YAIP that like can sometimes be like a movie series, but you're right is more often a TV show. Or fantasy maybe. I feel like the only time we get that sort of fancasting is the more like comic book or Star Warsy sorts of properties. Rig or verse bullshit is what you would say. I would never say that personally, but I'm glad you went there, Joe. There you go.

Okay, season two is this big announcement we got since the last time we recorded an episode. They're making a season two. Let's talk about this. It's, so this show has been number one on Apple TV since it debuted. To Bill's point, there's not been much comprehensive. But it has been number one up there. It is by far and away their most popular show they've ever had, according to them. Is that true?

Not bigger than not Ted Lassow. Most popular drama, I think, right? Oh yeah, most popular drama. There you go. And Apple TV, we've talked about this again and again and again, has had trouble getting things going. So it makes a lot of sense that they would want to do this. I'm confused why they would announce it now when the question of the ending is still up in the air, for people.

Bill, what do you think? Come on. This isn't hard. It's not. Well, Rob, do you know? Because I feel like I know the answer, but Rob, what do you think? My guess is that they're trying to string along, I mean, some momentum to get people interested. And also, there must be some retaining characters.

I know it said in the press release that there's going to be a whole new case to examine. So I'm assuming that it's not mistrial and run it back. But I'm a little mystified by that timing, too. What's your theory, Bill? I just think they're white lotosing it. Just whole new cast, you think? Whole new cast each season. And it's smart because they created the gimmick.

They have the title. It was popular on Apple. And now it's the bottom line. This isn't like TV's not hard, guys. Bill, I'm not saying why are they doing it. I know why they're doing it? And I'm just saying like why are they announcing it before we know how it ends? Because they have, because this is good news for Apple.

Like they have a drama that people actually like watching. I just might have dropped the news the day after the finale drops or something like that. I wouldn't be surprised if we either get a holdover like Tommy Maltow navigating the next case or like an exonerated rusty navigating the next case. I wouldn't be surprised if we get

some returning characters in that White Lotus kind of mold. He changes his name to Russell, Savage, to try to throw people off. I just think like TV is not hard. Like law, hospitals, they've always worked. They've worked the entire. the time I've been alive.

They're going to keep working. Police, fire. Like, when you really go backwards. You put Chicago in front of it and it's going to get it. Like, think about it. We have Chicago where they were just like, hey, we should just have three hours where we just have three hours of this. So Apple, who was really artsy-fartsy.

And I just would spend a ton of money on these shows that usually it was, you know, where they could put one famous person in the picture and have some huge. convoluted and now it's like, you know what, maybe just play the hits. This guy, this guy had a mistress who we worked with and now she's dead and he might have done it and he might not have done it and that's it. Let's go.

The potential for the future is that Scott Turrow did, I mean, DVD Kelly can do whatever he wants and has in the past with like Big Little Eye Season 2. He doesn't necessarily need to stick to any source material. Scott Turrow did write a number of follow-up novels, none of which were nearly as popular as presumed there was. There's

Sequel books? Yeah, they're all, they're starring different characters all set in, like, Kindle County. So they're all, like, kind of related. And you get some of these characters. The Kindleverse, as we know. Yeah, yeah, the Kindleverse. Like, some of these characters come back, some don't or whatever. But so I think they could do something like that where they keep it interconnected or.

But why couldn't it be just somebody who is accused each season? It's like a lawyer who is accused of something. No? Who do you want? Because this is Jake's first TV show. Yeah. Who do you want who hasn't done TV to be in presumed innocent season two? I mean, there's a lot of meat left on that bone, right?

We've had a lot of people, especially with the money that Apple throws around. It used to be like it was kind of slumming it or you're moving into a different point of your career. And I don't think that's the case anymore. I think you can now do prestige TV and then just bounce back immediately into movies. So it's somebody in that like, but you're right, it's like somebody in that Jake. It's like an Ian Hathaway. It's somebody in that Jake age range who's kind of had their run. But she did our favorite, we crashed for Apple already.

That's a good point. So she's in the family, you know? I think that was my favorite Apple drama before this one, the We crashed one. What about keeping in the Rustyverse? What about Brad Pitt? I mean, sure. You think we'd mind that? He hasn't done TV ever?

No. I mean, I just Googled it. Is he inscrutable enough to be one of these shifty characters? He appeared in four episodes of Dallas between 1987 and 1988. I don't think that counts. Looking forward to the Hall of Fame episode on those coming to the prestige feed soon.

And then he was a guest star on 21 Jump Street, but I don't think he's done TV since he's been Brad Pitt, you know? But I would go the other way. Like, I think you're looking at it wrong. I think everybody's on the table. What actors and actresses would never do TV? And it's basically like Leo.

Yeah. I feel like everyone else is on the table. To me, Leo is the only one who would be like, no, no way, never doing TV. Is there anybody else who would just blindly say no way? Everyone else is listening to the offer at least. I think Brad, though. I think Brad is in that, like, Leo bubble. Like, he could be.

They both have their Oscars. Brad does any money. That's estranged from his eight-person family. I think Denzel is probably a no. Yeah. And I wonder some of the younger generation stars who are just coming off of TV, and may not want to double back. Like the whole euphoria cast, for example.

Like, are you convincing Jacob Allorty to come back and do TV or Zendaya? Like, that's not happening right now. And like, Shalame is probably a no. Yeah. But yeah, I would say everybody from 35 to 55 is at least taking a couple calls and having their agents and things like that. Can we talk about Jilling Hall? Because you guys have kind of tap danced around it.

I watched prisoners with my wife and daughter over the weekend because my daughter wanted a kidnap movie. and normal family activities that's a tough set super weird request I'm not going to not going to deny it but she was like

how many good kidnapping movies and there really isn't like it's kind of shocking how few actual good kidnap movies are but anyway we watch prisoners and Jake is phenomenal in that movie he's really good and something shifted with him

in the last five years where I don't feel like he's as good of an actor as he used to be it's like this will happen in like basketball where we're like, why is that guy an all-N-B-A guy anymore? We can't figure it out. I didn't think he was very good this season in presumed innocent until this seventh episode.

And I actually thought he was really good in this episode. I really felt like he was struggling to figure out this character, the motivations. I thought his relationship with his wife was really choppy and I didn't understand why they were together. And I didn't feel like they had chemistry connection all. Like Harrison Ford and Bonnie Medelley in the movie were like, really had it, like the scenes they had.

You really could feel whatever was going on. I just don't feel it with those two. It's interesting. I kind of agree with that in terms of the home stuff for him. I do feel like I understand his work relationships. I feel like the flashbacks have been really effective. Yeah. With the affair.

And we talked to Greg a little bit about this, but I'm curious to get your take on this bill. It felt so 90s thriller to me. like just the sheer amount of like nudity and and eroticism and all that sort of stuff like that we don't get that in our storytelling very much. But not erotic. It's like these very carefully choreographed sex scenes that like the presumed innocent sex scene, you feel like they're kind of going at it. Yeah. And this was like the very 2024.

We have to have this in here. I don't know. I just felt like it felt state. Maybe I just don't know where we are with sex scenes in the mid-200. Rob seems like he was into it. I just think this one was a little chokier than what you might find on television. That's true. That is true.

I think this and normal people have been like way more than we usually get in the 2020s. I think that's interesting. For your point about like you think Jake doesn't have it as much anymore, what do you feel like his last great thing was then? Well, the ambulance erasure that's happening right now was unacceptable. I didn't think he was that good in ambulance. So there you go. Yeah. And that's a movie that's made for Bill Simmons. I'm literally the audience for that movie. I thought he was really weird in Roadhouse. I thought it was a strange performance. Weird movie. I kind of like this whole weird little freak era of Jake's acting career.

I kind of like that he's like, I'm just going to be as weird as possible. So what was his last good one for you? Are you looking at the IMDB? Because I thought in the mid-2000s he had an unbelievable run. I'm a huge nightcrawler fan, and I'm just confronting how long ago, that was. What about end of days? I thought he was great in that. End of watch. End of watch.

Yeah. End of watch is legit. He's really good in that. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I thought, I just think he's in a weird spot. I thought Roadhouse was super strange. Roadhouse is super strange,

but I don't know that that's his fault. For sure. I am an enemy head. I do love nocturnal animals. Or love might be the wrong word, but it's an extremely memorable movie and he's quite good in it. But he has been in that weird zone for a long time now. and the hits are further between

than you might expect. Yeah, and sometimes that happens where you're like peak, peak run as eight to ten years, but I was texting with a friend of mine about it because I have a friend who's obsessed with like what happened to Jake Gyllenhaal I thought this guy was going to win Oscars.

Like, where do we go wrong? I am forever irate that he didn't win for Nightcrawler. I really thought that was like, that was it for him. I thought he was incredible in that. I think it's so interesting, I think Jake for a while got pinned into like handsome leading man territory when he in fact is a character actor. Again, this is like very much the Brad Pitt model of like, I think him being as weird and erratic as possible is his best mode.

And when he was like earlier in the odds trying to be like, you know, past bubble boy, but like into, I don't know, love another drugs or whatever it is. Like that era of Jake is not for me. But he does bring credibility to a show like this where you're like, oh, Jake Joan Hall's in it. And I think that's important. He's likable when he needs to be likable and also insidious in ways that will constantly make you question his motivations. And that balance is good. But I agree with you that the whiplash between them is a little jarring sometimes. But who do you think is the best actor?

Like, who do you think winning this show right now from an acting standpoint? Because it's not Jake. The most bill question I can imagine occurring on this podcast. It's SARS guard easily. Yeah, but that's the thing. Like he's kind of blowing everybody, especially in this episode. When they cut after he destroys Rusty and they go to the car after and weird voice guy, who's one of the strangest act performances of all time.

I read an article where that guy's like, I thought I would try this weird voice. And they were like, go with it. It was like, really? Nobody stopped this? He based it on William Atherton from Ghostbusters. Yeah, it's insane. But anyway, he's in the car. and they cut to SARS Guard

and he just has the most satisfied awesome look on his face. I'm like this guy, I've always liked this guy and he's like kind of been he's been in all types of movies and TV shows but even like Garden State, which is probably his breakout,

but he's just had a really interesting career. I'm happy for him that he's like crushing it on this show. He's been my favorite for so long and he's great in it. Like even when he shows up for like a little bit in The Batman recently, Like he's just like great in everything that he does a great S&L host. Right. Like the bathroom scene with when he goes in and he pees next to rusty and it's just like nothing happens,

but it's such an interesting scene how they both of them handle it. I thought it was really good. That's a great tease. We actually talked to that, talked about that with Greg. So stay tuned for the interview on some context on how that scene came to be where it is in this episode. I think the thing with Jake, however we may agree or disagree on the state of his career, I think it's tough casting for Rusty because, to your point, we talked about this sort of choice at the beginning of the season,

but Harrison Ford was so likable. At that point, he was Han Solo and Indiana Jones and, like, I think soon to be the president and all this sort of stuff. And the exploration of that guy being obsessed, sexually obsessed with Greta Skashi character and presumed innocent, that made it all sort of really well. wild to watch. With Jake Gyllenhaal, we're like, you, all three of us are like, oh, yeah, that guy could have easily done it. Whereas like with Harrison Ford, we're like, would Harrison Ford do

that? This were like, yeah, Jake Jillenhall would have done that. Of course, we've seen him be way weirder in things. And so it's tough casting to, and to stretch it out over eight episodes to keep us in a did he or didn't he space. Yeah. Is he likable? Is he violent? What is he? I think has been really tricky. And one of the ways it was a show hasn't been successful versus is like literally everything Peter Sarasgard has done has been successful for me. Well, and there's a couple actors who have been awesome, like Sarasgard.

And then the little, I mean, this happens sometimes with these shows like that, the son actor, the son of our murdered lady. Yeah. It's just so bad. The scenes are so bad with him. Like, I can't.

Sometimes these shows, they just miss it. And it's like, it's fine if you miss it. It's like the 10th most important character in the show. But he's in huge scenes. in this episode, right? He's going head to head with Rusty. Rusty's interrogating him.

He's like, you kill my mother. And it's like, this guy's just bad? Yeah. And then they go to the weird voice guy. And then, you know, Ruth's a good actress. I don't know if it's necessarily her fault, but this part is my wife's watching it going, if I was in the courtroom and they were playing,

showing texts of saying how you wanted to spend the rest of your life with somebody, like I'm pretty sure the scene in the TV show would have to be longer than 30, seconds, right? They just like, just kind of zoomed through that one. And she's like this ornament of the show. And I don't feel like they developed her character at all, except for it's like, oh, wait,

Trout bartender guys here. What was this thing? He was a Harvard PhD. He's an art PhD. Art PhD, six foot four, super handsome. He's slumming in a bar. She's slinging some drinks. She's there.

Not dating anyone. Just available for a trope hookup. that's their attempt again over eight episodes versus a two and a half hour movie to keep Barbara constantly in the conversation. You know what I mean? Like as a character, they didn't want to like sideline her into like just showing up in the kitchen or whatever. But there were better plots for her. Oh, for sure.

I think that's true. 100%. And I'm so fascinated with the kids. Like think about the impact this would have on your family. And they just kind of try and race through the scenes with her and the kids and the kids in general. on. It's like, dad, dad's taking Ridland again. It's like, what? What are we doing?

That was an incredible. He's going to go to murder and rampage because he took a Ritland capsule. What an episode seven swerve also Rusty is on speed. I did not anticipate that one. It wasn't on your bingo car? Is it that awful? Like, that the kids are reacting in shock and horror that he's pop in Ridland? I think it depends how much you're taking it.

That's true. How often, you know. But my understanding was Gin Z was a little bit more. accepting of party drugs than this. I think they might be more into it than they let on here. Or these are just a bunch of nerds, a bunch of looser kids, you know. Rusty's raising a bunch of nerds. The Barbara thing, though, the episodes where she has gotten a lot to do,

I've really liked her involvement. And I do think Ruth Naga is generally awesome enough to carry even the scenes where she doesn't have a lot to do. The camera kept finding her in episode 7 in a way that has raised my hackles a little bit. I don't know exactly what's going on with that character. and there's something about her like relationship and interactions with Rusty that I can't quite place where

They have no chemistry whatsoever? How about let's start there? I think sometimes they do but there's scenes where like something dramatic has happened for example Raymond like raised in the hospital and she doesn't say one comforting word to him she just has an exchange where she like leans on a doorway and kind of looks at him.

Yeah. I don't really know what's going on between them at this point in time and to the point that I wonder if some of it has been kind of chopped up and moved around. Oh, interesting. Joina, I want you to know this about me. This is like my ideal kind of TV show because it's not too intense

where I don't have to concentrate on every single second. It's good enough to keep my interest, but there's also things I can make fun of as I'm watching it. And that, to me, is the sweet spot. That's what I want from my Apple TV shows. So I hope they can replicate that. Yeah. Do you think season two is a chance of being this for you? You'd have to get a major star, male or female,

I'm like for me David E. Kelly, I just felt like he was moving down into that big little lies universe of like really wealthy characters and people have a secret to hide. Oh, totally. And everybody's house is $20 million and fucking awesome. And there's like preschool drama. And it just felt like that he was just using that part of his life just. So I'm glad he's back to his roots in a courtroom again. No. Well, but that's okay. So he did big little lies, the undoing and nine perfect strangers all like diminishing returns on. on all of those. And, like, for Big Little Lies, season two, especially because he turned that into a courtroom drama,

they did add Meryl Streep. If you're talking about, like, can we get a star for season two? It's bad. It's so bad. And it makes us worried. We were talking about this about, like, Shogun's Season 2 versus,

presumed innocent season 2. And, like, how with Shogun's season 2, we don't have any evidence that those creators aren't going to, like, just milk it, even though they don't have any story there. but with like Big Little Lies Season 2 as an example, I'm a little worried about Presumed Dissent Season 2

because Big Little Lies Season 2, they didn't have it and they did it anyway, you know? And so that makes me worried. Rob and I are writing Presumed Innocence Season 2. It's going to be... Yeah, it's in spec right now, but I think it's promising. It's two bloggers at Summer League in Vegas who get an argument about Brine James

and the heat just drives them to a murder and there's a body and that's it. That's all we have so far. I heard it was 120 degrees. Is that, can you confirm that it was 10020 degrees? 120 degrees in Vegas. Can indeed confirm it. That's the rising tensions. You know, the sweltering heat,

it's really building a sense of atmosphere. Heat and Brony James. It's just a combustible cocktail. People lose their minds. Okay, Bill and I are going to do our best poker faces right now. Rob, do you want to take us to one final theory corner of who you think? I can't wait for this, Rob. I want to do it through this lens.

At the end of this episode, we get one final cliffhanger, at least what I hope is one final cliffhanger. If we get a cliffhanger ending season one into season two and be very mad about that. We get the mysterious fireplace poker appears in Tommy Moldo's apartment. Yeah, so what are the theories for that? So I think

that's a good way to break down who might have done it. Because who would even put it there, who would have reason to put it there? Rusty is a natural candidate. Tommy challenged him in court, blew up his spot, baited him, completely embarrassed him on the stand in his big hero ball

moment. So sure, Rusty makes sense. If Tommy killed Carolyn and someone saw him do it. I could see this being an unrelated, like, taunt to him. Maybe that's something that makes sense. Dale LaGuardy, I think, is off the board. He's just, like, too savvy and too confident to be throwing wrenches into the case at this point.

Michael, I don't see why he would have reason to use the poker or, like, to leave the poker. I also don't think kids are sophisticated enough in using a printer to print on a post-it note to leave at the scene. So I'm going to rule out all the kids. All the kids. All kids. All kids. Nobody's using a printer like that.

Michael's dad, maybe just to help point the finger at Rusty with the coincidental timing, maybe. I think maybe if we had seen more of Barbara having an excruciating time in the courtroom, confronting the texts of Rusty, like telling Carolyn he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, which we get like some cursory mention of it dwells on a little bit, but not really from her perspective.

Then maybe I could see it from there. But I don't even see anyone else as being a realistic candidate at this point. Raymond's in the hospital. Maya is basically off the case. I don't see why she would be involved. Brian Ratser, like, I don't see why he would be getting in the mix at this point when everything is sort of pointing in Rusty's direction. I feel like it has to be Rusty and Barbara being both involved somehow,

but I'm not sure who did what or Tommy. Those are like the three theories that I have on my board. at this point. I feel like that's where the show is pointing you for sure. I think that's true. This is where David E. Kelly has to work as magic. Because what are the odds? A third party witnessed the murder.

That isn't the kid who was stalking in the house and just filming shit all the time. Or the other kid who was biking by. Every character was somehow at the murder scene. A lot of people just flying by this house. Somewhere in a hedge. I mean, I'm rooting for it to be a weird voice guy. but I don't think it's going to be. I don't think it's going to be him.

But the thing is, one of the geniuses with the show is the 45-minute episodes where our brains are a condition to go like 25 to 27 or you think it's an hour. And I watch these shows and all of a sudden it's kind of over. And it always makes me wish it was 10 minutes longer, which I think is smart. It's like an optical illusion. They got you exactly where they watch.

It's like a 43-minute show. It's in this one. weird sweet spot. So with one episode left, do they go bigger than that? Do they blow it out as an hour? Because if it's 45 minutes, they can have a lot to do with that last episode. We need closing arguments. We need a verdict. We need fallout from the trial. We need to know who did it. So that's what makes me wonder, is this going to cliffhanger into season two? Well, and we need everyone leaving the courtroom. There's always some big confrontation. Okay. Here's what I have to say about this. I still think they're doing the original ending. I think there's a big part of it that they are,

cutting out because DVD Kelly has said we're still doing twist and turns, just not the twist and turns that you might expect something like that, whatever. Something completely empty. But like, I think that there are some differences they're making. I think they might be sticking closer to the book ending,

which is, I told Rob this, which is still like the same killer, but sort of revealed differently. And I think that changes. I think there could be a satisfying ending, even for fans of the movie, where the killer is the same, but the reveal is different enough

that it is exciting and cool. Can I just say it's hilarious to do this with Rob, who doesn't know the ending? Like, now that my kids are grown up, I don't have to pretend Santa Claus exists or that the Elf in the Shelf moves every night. And that's basically Rob right now where we're just dancing around,

even though we both know what the ending is. It's like, yeah, Rob, the Elton the Shelf moved again. Wait, you're telling me Santa Claus doesn't exist? What the fuck? Yeah, it doesn't exist. Yeah. We're here to protect Four Sweet innocent Rob. So, POS, so on the board is,

we just find out what happens. It ends in season two is White Lotus with a new episode. Or Cliffhanger. They can't. They can't. Right? It ends. We find out in the first episode of next year what happens.

And then we move into another case with Rusty and a couple of the other people. Then you have to get Jake Jonehow to come back. I'm sitting here thinking they can't do that. And then also there have been so many times when Bill has proposed something completely batched. It has come true. And I have learned to listen. Well, it's also Apple.

Apple's not exactly, they're not rocket scientists. So if they're like, how do we keep this going? They might just make the wrong decision. It doesn't mean it's a good decision. I also just have to wonder if like, I feel like they didn't plan to necessarily do a season two, except it's so popular that they're like, okay, take all the money and do season two. We'll let you.

Well, think about our reaction of this. We didn't even initially know if we were going to cover this in any way. prestige, right? It just seemed like it felt like a bad idea for Jake. That was my reaction when I heard. It's like they're making a TV show out of a movie that I already saw in a book that I already read and Jake's in this and it's Apple TV

with this spotty track record. This seems like a fucking disaster. Rob, Rob has receipts for me. Rob has a text for me being like, Rob, I think this is, it's when, and I said this already, but it's when Bill Camp said something about like, nothing's beneath me. I fucked an Ottoman once. Yes, that was the line. That was what I was like, this is going to be a show.

This is going to be a show that people are going to watch and enjoy. I mean, honestly, we should have legal throwers. Like, this should end in stars or Netflix or HB. Like, there should just be another trial. I just like, like, we all just like trials. I like being in courtrooms. We did a whole room month on the rewatchables. We narrowed it down in four movies.

There was, like, 28 to pick from. Everybody likes this stuff. I feel like they took the wrong message, wrong lesson from the people versus OJ, which is their like more, they just want more true crime. And it's like, sure, true crime is fun. Stump casting is fun. But what we really want is a courtroom

true crime. That's all takes. That's what we want to watch. Wait, can I ask you guys, what would you, what would you want your job to be in a courtroom drama? I want to be the background stenographer that has one outsized facial reaction. That's what I want. So you're like deep background.

Yeah, I'm deep background. I'm typing away. Someone blows up and I'm the guy who snaps alert to let you know this is a significant moment. That's the job I won. What would you want, Joanna? I want to be the witness you regret you put on the stand. Oh. Yeah.

I love the judge. The judge always wins in these shows. They have like these weird biases they bring in. I like when they call people to the bench. Can I see people at the bench right now? Or let's go into the quarters and I'm going to yell at somebody. I'll see you in my chambers. And they just like indiscriminately.

They become Roger Goodell. They're just like fucking making up their own. verdicts on stuff. No, I'm not going to allow that actually. Sorry. I don't know. I think that would be fun. You don't have to worry about your wardrobe. We're just putting a gown on. That sounds right to me. Bill with the gavel sounds right to me. Maybe a judge is the second season. It's a judge who has some sort of skeleton. Who commits a crime in somewhere. Yeah. Let's go. At Summer League in Vegas. Lots of judges out there as we know. I think the preferable outcome in season two is a mostly, if not all new cast. I'm a little

worried they might homeland it where let's say Rusty did commit the murder and the season ends with everyone becoming aware of it but he's somehow proven innocent regardless and then we have to just like keep following along with these characters as they live in the aftermath of that. I'm hoping that's not what we get.

I would hate that. All right. Anything else we want to say about this show or this episode? What about it turns out? Zach Braff did it and it's like a whole garden, it's a long pullback to Garden State. Wow. Portman for season two is what you're saying?

They're just in and that's it. And then it becomes them. Okay. Some good early indie music starts playing. All right. So predictions, because we can't predict because we know the ending from the movie or the book. But I'm going to predict some sort of cliffhangery type thing that can pull us into a season two. But then season two will be a different season. But then we'll get some form of the resolution. We'll find out some stuff.

Maybe we'll find out the verdict. But not everything. We're not slamming the door on this season. Something will, there will be some ambilical court to season two with this group. I really hope not. I'm predicting same ending as the book, some character holdover. Because I can say this without spelling anything. The first book he wrote as a follow-up focused on the lawyer character that they cut from the show, which is the one played by Royal Julia in the movie.

They cut that character from the show entirely. he's sort of the main character of the second book. And so I have no idea how they might just, but they mentioned him by name. So maybe it does center on that character, Sandy Stern, who they mentioned by name but didn't put in the show. But we get some of the residual characters, Nicodal Guardia or someone else left.

So it feels like it's in the same world. You know what else is great about these shows where they just completely ignore the possibility that anybody has any sort of life, that's not just work or family. Like, nobody's a sports fan. Nobody's like, I thought, I thought we had the chat today.

No, no, Springsteen's in town. Like, nobody has hobbies. Nobody goes out to dinner. Nobody really does anything. Barbara has a whole art studio. I don't know where you're talking. She's day drinking now. Like, she's got a lot going on.

This is very busy. I do, I do have one last follow-up. And, Bill, you're a great expert witness to have for this particular line of questioning. Dale LaGuardia is doing this whole riff with something that Raymond used to say about being well done fucked in a case relative to the stake spectrum

and he refers he says that there's a spectrum between medium rare medium plus and well done. I have never in my life heard someone refer to a steak as medium plus. Have either of you ever heard of that before? No. I have not. Maybe it's a Chicago thing. We're back

on Chicago Steakhouse Watch. I guess get at us. You've taken us. So it's medium rare, medium, medium plus well done? Yeah, I guess it's a substitute for medium well. But it's not quite medium well. But no human has ever said that those combinations. No, human has ever put those words together.

I've never heard. Except Nico De LaGuardia. If you have ever ordered a medium plus steak, please email us at Scottish maltcarpet at gmail.com. We would love to hear about it. So get at us. All right. Let's go now to our interview with Greg Catanus.

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Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. Greg, I mean, obviously a very courtroom head. heavy show and a courtroom heavy episode in particular that we're coming off now in episode seven. You've a lot of experience shooting all kinds of action. But what are the differences and what's kind of your perspective in terms of capturing the action of the courtroom specifically? You know, it was one of those things where I haven't done courtroom before. So when I come up

against something, you know, like whether it was the battle scene in House of the Dragon and season And one, you know, the real fun of it is the cinematic diet of what you be stout on to see what other people have done before you. Not just to lift from, but to see what worked and what is the tone. And, you know, in this particular case, you know, because every episode, I had three episodes of courtroom and I wanted each one to kind of stand on its own, you know, I was looking at, you know, the 45-minute sequence of JFK that's in the court. room. I was looking at compulsion with Orson Wells. I looked at the verdict with Paul Newman for, you know, the Tommy Maltow opening statement, which was originally imagined as a, you know, a single take. So, you know, these, just looking at what, you know, smart people have done before me is, you know, always sort of the first step of what's going on. And then, you know, really sort of looking at,

you know, what are our constraints? What do we have? You know, in this particular case, you know, One of the things I had learned by this point is that Jake especially really can act to one camera especially well. Like he has a real relationship to that camera that you don't often come across. And in order to fuel that, I was mindful that I was going to be using three cameras and to not put them all on Jake at the same time. So if you see some of the behind the scenes, you'll see that we have a camera on Malta. We have a camera on Raymond. We have a camera on Rusty or some combination. of that, but usually always kept, you know, Jake to one camera, so he knew kind of what to

work with, and his alchemy with the camera is kind of incredible. So when you see it in person happening, it's like magic trick. That's so interesting. I never thought about that, about the idea of working to multiple cameras versus one at any given time. That's incredible. Rob has not read the book or seen the Harrison Ford film. So he is, like, completely innocent in terms of knowing the outcome of all of this. I have seen the Harrison Ford film. I also am aware that, like, we're not minding for spoilers. I'm aware that you guys could change the ending if you decided to.

But there's a basic sort of premise here of you're doing something of a whodunit, where the answer, the theoretical answer, is known by some significant percentage of the audience. So I'm curious, like, from your point of view, how much is that idea on your mind is you craft this sort of middle stretch of the season that has so many like red herrings, blind alleys, all these other aspects that are keeping us running through the case. I mean, I think I think the core question for people that have either seen the movie or read the book or seen the movie and read the book is, are we doing either of those? Because they're each different in their own unique way.

So, and that's like I think it's too, it's definitely a real asset to me to be able to to know that like, okay, if somebody's seen the movie, they're going to be wondering, you know, these things. And if they haven't seen the movie, like, let them wonder this. In Rob's case, like, he has less to think about, you know, in terms of and, you know, can take it. So, you know, that'll really remain the question, you know, for, and that's been the interesting thing is like, I will get text messages like,

you know, I've seen the movie. Are you guys doing the movie? Are you not doing the movie? I'm like, you're asking the right question. how I leave it. It is a good question. And I think that before I took this, and it was interesting, because I'm usually the one that comes in to set the tone and the look and such and to produce Anne in this case and to be able to take the middle run was actually a lot more fun than I anticipated. You know, like being able to do five in a row, you get a real great groove. You're viving with the cast and the

crew and the whole thing. And, you know, it's all happening around you. But, you know, I'm the heavy lifting of, of keeping people into the season and to keep the tension going and to find tension in new places and provide new information. And I think, too, as you start to get to this point in the season, you're seeing things through the lens you want to see it through. You know, if you have your, you know, your first and second choice suspects, you know, you can see. And I think, you know, that's true for any of these situations when you see that somebody's been arrested. Everybody kind of sees things through the lens they want to see things through, you know. And I especially, you know, I like the adult themes that we are continuing to tackle each week.

I mean, a lot of the reason you can do all that twisting and turning is because we keep coming back to Rusty over and over in this kind of fundamental question of whether he's even capable of killing Carolyn, whether how involved he is with that crime. And you can sell all that gray area because, as you mentioned, Jake has this relationship with your single camera where he can be very ambiguous, give us a lot of mixed signals as far as who that character is

and where his state of mind might be. How do you go about capturing that? I know you're focusing the one lens on him, but I imagine there's just like a really careful line to walk in terms of framing and lighting and how you're portraying that character? There is. And I think that relationship with Jake as director, actor, collaboration

is that he is in search of the truth of that moment. And I don't think you can really direct ambiguity. So, you know, we get into the truth of like what's happening in that particular moment. or in that scene, you know, and those things are, you know, he's got his own process of how those things are loaded and how you're looking into them. And, you know, again, going back,

you know, when somebody's arrested, you know, for potentially murder, who has also had an affair, you know, we often conflate that those two things must be related. I mean, in this case, they might be, but it's not, that's the question that everybody has to assess, you know, is he a liar about everything or is he a liar about some things, you know, and that, you know, being able to get into the messiness,

I think, you know, we, the whole cast and I had conversations around, you know, by this point, you know, we were all in our 40s and 50s and we've all, you know, we come with some battle scars. So we've all been through every different aspect of every kind of relationship. It's, you know, at some point, you know, and so we could excavate that, you know, where, you know, you come up against these things that are, you're holding multiple truths. It's like, Barbara loves her family, her kids, you know, still has an attraction. with Clifton. That's a real thing. These are all happening at once.

One doesn't exclude the other. So, you know, I feel like everything that, you know, Rusty's saying is, you know, going towards the truth of each scene. Well, as you're finding that truth and locating what it is in that moment, as you said, how much variety are you actually shooting? Is it the kind of thing where it's very clear where Rusty is in that moment? Or are you shooting a range of reactions or a range of emotions and you kind of pinpoint what's what later. You know, it's interesting on this, this, because Jake hadn't done television before,

and we had this hybrid way of working that wasn't quite how you'd work on a film in terms of the time that you can take to excavate things. But we, we would work the scene and get to something before we would, and then we would lay it down pretty quickly. It was one of those things where, you know, in a couple of takes, we would have it. I tried to work with a style that didn't inhibit him, but in the times that we needed sort of a specificity between camera and acting and moment, I think of like an example that I always think about is, I think it's four. It's after he's talked to Kyle. And he goes out for a walk and he comes back and the light bulbs out on the porch, which was sort of a retro engineering of like why he was in the garage

when Barbara comes to talk to him, which had to do with some practical things. But, you know, you know, Jake can like, you'll look at playback and he'll see like, okay, you're trying to time me coming up the steps and landing on the light. and like, I need to get there sooner. The camera needs to sort of like, he just, he can, you know, he has 30 years in front of the camera, so he can do that kind of calculus and be a real asset. But when we would work, generally, we would rehearse and work and talk about it and kind of get at it, you know, with his scene partners.

That's why, you know, anybody that's going to act with him was someone he directly auditioned with to make sure that they could handle and play and be thrown everything that he could kind of do. So his dedication as an executive producer and as, you know, number one, is, was really, you know, inspiring for all of us to kind of keep playing in that world. Because so often in TV, you're just like, okay, you know, you have so much to do in a day. You're like, everybody has to stand here and go here and do this. And then that's what's happening. And what was great was that, like, great ideas from great actors were coming in every single day. And so I had genuine excitement when I would look at the call sheet and see, like, who was going to be working with who that day.

because every scene had somebody great working with somebody great. You mentioned auditions in order to make sure someone can work with Jake on his level. I imagine that his brother-in-law, Peter Sarasgard, maybe that's already somewhat built into their relationship. But I am personally obsessed with cat dad, Tommy Malto. I think this is one of my favorite TV characters in a long time, and I love Peter's work. I was wondering if you could talk about Peter and Jake bouncing off of each other. In this episode, of course, we get the big fireworks of, you know, like resting on the stand, something we've been building to.

But there's also like the smaller moments of like them in the bathroom right before they go in and they have this sort of like near silent moment in the mirror with each other. Can you talk about their working relationship and was it like? You know, Jake definitely recruited Peter and I talked to Peter between takes like how many, he's like how many times he's like showed up for the Gillenhall family when requested. And then, you know, it's funny you talk about him as cat dad. That was something that he wanted. That came out of like an improv and a scene that we had a flashback scene that we didn't end up using,

which was just when Rusty and Malto were like, you know, where they like go out for drinks, you know, and they're like having drinks together after a case, you know, where you see that it hasn't always been like this between the two characters. You know, Peter also brought, you know, the idea of like his going out shirt in that scene in episode three with her. I love that shirt. I sent Rob, I sent Rob on our producer Kai, like a photo of that shirt, immediately, and I was like, we need to spend the whole podcast talking about it. It's so amazing. Oh, yeah. We're going to put AI on the process of trying to locate that shirt, reverse source it.

I think we all need to get a version of it. I love it. He's like, that's Tommy's going out shirt. I'm like, what is Tommy's going out shirt? What's that he's like, well, my dad, you know, would have at the office, like his going out shirt. So if he was like getting drinks afterwards, he would have his, you know, he could get out of his suit and he could, you know, put on his going out shirt. I'm like, so Tommy's guys going out shirt. I'm like, great. The bolo tie. It was also, um, Peter's, you know, kind of creation. That got nixed. You know, there's a lot of approval process in the course of, you know, making the first

episode of something. And so the Bolo somehow got nixed, but I was like, oh, man, like, we have to use it for flashbacks. Like, he used to wear, you know, until he, like, became a tie guy. So, like, we found ways to, like, work in what he's doing and stuff with his character that way, which I really love. And he, you know, being able to get into seven, you know, where, two things. One, Tommy's putting back as Bolo Tie, which means he means business. And two, that scene in the

bathroom, especially, you know, that was interesting because we originally shot that for the beginning of episode five before the opening statements. And, you know, I loved it so much, it had so much more impact than I anticipated that after we shot it, you know, I talked to David and we moved it into episode seven. And then I, I constructed the wardrobe to match so that we could use it there by the time we got to episode seven. So that scene especially, you know, it was just impactful to have Rusty by himself. And I love, you know, when you have great actors, especially having thinking time with them. So those two, you know, instantly come to the table with so much history and bring. And they couldn't do what they're doing if there wasn't so much

love there in the room between them. Tommy and Rusty get all the fireworks for the most part. the big speeches, they get to make a show of really the entire trial at this point. Barbara doesn't have a lot of dialogue in episode seven, but she gets a lot of screen time. We spend a lot of time with her and her reactions to things. What's your read and your interpretation on where she is at this point in the story, where she's being hit with the reality of some of the texts between Rusty and Carolyn, for example, and having to process a lot of this stuff in real time? Where are we with Barbara right now?

You know, we shot all the stuff in the Savage House, like in sequence from, from episodes three, four, five, six, and seven. So we would, you know, get into the Savage House. And it was a relentless, I mean, how many days were we in there? Like, we were in there for like three weeks, right? So it was the pressure cooker of the emotional state of the family was really intense. Like it, it was a hard thing to work through. Those were, those were hard days for all of us. And just because we were, we were all emotionally exhausted by the end of it in terms of what that was. And I think that by this point, everything that we've set up with Barbara and with Ruth, and really a testament, who I think is like the secret weapon of the whole show is Barbara and Ruth Negas work. I just am

floored by her every single episode. And to your point, like, in her silence is her power. And everything that we've done with her up to this point allows us to be able to just spend that kind of time watching her and, you know, and the knife wounds of the things that she has to listen to. You know, and it's like it was what she said, you know, in with Raymond, you know, it's like, you know, I'm going to go in there and, you know, speak my truth and then be truthful, you know, and that these are the, that they're going to see that I'm disgusted and these are the hardest, you know, the hardest experience of my life. Like that speech just lord me. So, you know, Ruth continues to be a powerhouse to me, even in her quiet and also knowing that like this is other people are making noise right now. And that's like, the energy. needs to go towards that in this particular point, you know, and that's the part of what she's doing to, like, hold this family together, however she's doing it. You got a couple in your run of episodes, but, you know, a big cliffhanger at the end of six is like, oh, my God, Ray collapses in court, is he going to be okay? And then, you know, the resolution in seven. I'm curious,

you know, like, in a DVD-Kelly mystery story, there's often these sort of big, done-d-d-dun-d-de-cliffhanger moments at the end of an episode. And I'm curious sort of like what you think makes an effective version of that. And also, like, I've been thinking a lot about the audience. Like, I love that this is a week-to-week show because I always prefer week-to-week versus a binge.

Me too. But, like, an audience trained on the binge, like thinking about them and all when you are constructing these week-to-week cliffhanger moments, you know? I, you know, I don't. I think about the week-to-week audience. I think about what is going to, you know,

and by the way, I measure this against the thriller genre is what I wanted to do when I got into the business. So, and especially the 90s thriller, so to go back to presumed innocent, to watch it again and to, you know, get back into the mindset of all those great films that were like, you know, kind of medium budget. And, you know, they were just like a sort of certain Pacific Heights, hand the rocks the cradle, single white female. Oh, yeah. All those, like, all that time is like when I wanted to make, you know, unlawful entry. I wanted to make movies so badly in that genre.

So, you know, I'm exercising a muscle that is like what I want to. see as a viewer and what is going to like both make me crazy and make me tune in to the next week. So I'm thinking about that. The binge watcher, we didn't know, you know, we assume that, you know, just based on Apple's format that they were going to show the first two, but, you know, I'd hope that it wasn't going to be the first three. Like I just, I felt like that starts to like, you know, that what is what gets the conversation going. And like, what I love, what I absolutely loved is like my friends and other actually people I haven't talked to in a long time, like reaching out with their theories. Like, it'll just be a

random text. I haven't talked to you in a while. I think it's this. And, you know, and actually like, like yesterday by like, like, long time first AD who didn't, who didn't work on this, but he sent me a screenshot with his friend. And he was like, Rob, you've got to get on presumed innocent. He's like, well, I'm heading home with my cassidia. I was just thinking I'm going to watch presumed innocent. He's like, well, hurry up because I'm on episode six. The only person I'm talking to about the murderer is the executive producer and he won't tell me. That's the, you know. Is that hard, like keeping your lips zipped about this? No, you know, I try to be, you know, fun about it.

Like, I'm not, you know, it's like everybody wants to know how the magic trick is and then they're, they're, they, but they don't really want to know. Like, you don't want to take away their enjoyment. I'm just, I'm always like, that's solid theory. Like, it's, it's interesting because people really have backup for why they think it's a particular character. And, you know, some of that for me was, are things that I've laid out there or just ideas. to try or, you know, the way we linger, who we hold on or who we're on for a particular line. There's no accidents throughout any of the episodes. You know, nothing is sort of by chance. You know, if you're being led a particular way or feeling a particular thing, like, we wanted you to feel that.

I enjoy it. I mean, I'm excited when people care. And I think, you know, with something like this with the cliffhangers, you know, and the idea, you know, David Stiles very much like to pick up where we left off. I mean, seven jumps, five minutes does they get him at the hospital? But, you know, I'd actually imagine 7 even more frenetic than it almost until that scene in the bathroom where it was like the whole show has been turned upside down in those first 10 minutes was important to convey. Well, one of the reasons we feel like we're being led into feeling a certain way about a character or about a certain scene or about a certain suspect, we get a lot of time randomly inside their heads with dreams and nightmares and these sorts of flashes of anger or whatever they may be.

what goes into bringing those sequences to life for you? Because a lot of them are, you know, there was one in episode seven where Rusty and Carolyn are almost against like a mind palace, pure black kind of background. Like there's a lot of different settings there that you're working with. I think,

you know, I think this is a real testament to the way that David Kelly had bad robot work was like when I would find extra time in the day, you know, like some days, not all days are created equal. And so sometimes I would finish early or sometimes I would know that I was like,

oh, you know what, I can slip in a dream sequence or a thought here or something that we can do. And these didn't necessarily have dialogue, but they were expressions of kind of the internal turmoil of what was happening. And so there was a lot of room as a director to contribute to those things and to be able to build those out. And sometimes even just in the interstitial stuff between scenes, you know, just wanting like I was hungry,

especially as I was seeing the cuts, I'm like, I'm hungry to, you know, watch rusty pace around before he goes to Damon silos and things like that, you know, where you just want to, you know, David writes so efficiently, but it also leaves time for you to flesh out cinematically what you're doing with his scripts. And so in the case of that sequence there, you know, which is kind of the void space, we shot it in the courtroom and, you know, again, just went for a much more theatrical version of the courtroom. And extremely stylized in that particular case. I feel like at different points, those dreams, memories, visions, however you want to categorize them, nightmares, you all take different forms for different people.

So I loved being able to explore everybody's psyche, you know, Raymond, you know, kind of almost predicting his own heart attack, you know. But then, you know, his head exploding, which, you know, I remember when we got that in the script and I was like, is that like tonally? Like we just all had kind of a gut check. And then we all just came back to like, you know what, let's fucking do it. And like, let's do it practically. You know, we had a, you know, we had the, you know, prosthetic. I saw that, I sent scanners out to everybody to like look out in terms of practical head explains. I was going to say, scanners for sure.

Yeah. We can do this with CGI. I'm like, but why would we want to do that? Like, let's like old school. It was actually hard to find people that still can do that and do it well. But it was really scary. And then there was an extra. We didn't use the second head.

And everybody's like, do you want it? And I'm like, no. I don't. I'd be looking, I'd be sitting here right now with like a giant life-size bust of Bill Camp. I was like, did Bill take it? I don't know. I was like, Bill, do you want it? He's like, I don't want it.

I was supposed to be in JJ's office somewhere. It must be somewhere at Bad Robot in the, with the Ark of the Covenant and everything else. I love that you brought up 90s thrillers, all those movies that you just mentioned that I watched when I was way too young to actually should have been able to watch them. Hands at Rock's Cradle made a real impression on me. That was a good one. We brought that up, sort of we were talking about the first few episodes. The sex flashbacks are so, to me, 90s coded, like 90s thriller, erotica coded, like in a way that we don't get in film and television very much anymore.

So that, like, stylistically really hit me. And I think it's interesting in, like, in a murder mystery slash thriller like this, where it starts with a murder, we, meet Carolyn through flashbacks and dreams and all this sort of stuff and usually they're biased, they're through someone else's memory or through someone else's vision of her.

So I was wondering how you think about going about creating this character as told almost Roshamon style through the ways that other people saw her, you know? It's definitely challenging. I think we were always examining that and there was more to the Liam Reynolds story in terms

of the breadth of his crimes. And we would spend, you know, time with her, you know, giving that opening argument. It was funny because it was written as a scene where they were just rehearsing it after hours, you know, and going through that. And then David's like, I love that and want to go back and put it into the pilot. You know, like it was so, so I think Renata brought so much to it, again, with a lot of power and presence that, that every, that, in a way, she kept writing for herself,

the more she did, the more, like, we did originally the scene with the, you know, the finding the file and putting in her drawer was like something we kind of constructed as something to cut away to. You know, I love JFK and I love kind of its construction and it's both that movie and Bob Bossy's kind of nonlinear style heavily influenced, you know,

the way that I go about putting things together. If you saw Banshee or Quarry or another, her work was so super. And I think that, you know, part of that is a, a real freedom that her and Jake had together during these sex scenes. I mean, Jake's always like, he's like, you got to like tell me to keep my clothes on. Like, me and my sister. Like, we'll, like, you know, we are like, we're like ready to get naked for the park. Like, don't, like, don't worry.

So when you have that, you know, I actually can tell you that like, really since the introduction of the intimacy coordinator, how like, kind of neutered the scenes, you know, throughout shows I've worked on since have gotten. And there's, you know, it's really getting harder and harder to find actors that are really game for what is needed. And these had to be so charged and it was so important to the story to see that. And the fact that, you know, I don't know if it's that Renaud is European or that Jake was game. But whatever their chemistry was was astonishing. And I think that they just like went for it. And, you know, I think pretty much all of those sex scenes and everything that was used throughout the show was like literally like a whole day of sex. And it's like, you know, so in fact, that was the first day I met Jake and we were like talking and walking by.

trailer and it was like you're just like walking to set and he's just like takes his clothes off and like gets right into the scene like he can he can bring it like that but the like scenes on the floor of the bathroom which i loved as well where he's like you know kind of tormented about his family and she's just like has this look like oh like fuck this guy you know like this is not sexy um you know those things like they brought so much to it and they did so much that was like almost undirectible you know they just came they just came to the table ready to go and i loved every second of their power together and kind of joy and the ease that they fell into

the magic of those early days of an affair. As you mentioned, you're jumping into the middle chunk of episodes in a lot of ways, which I imagine has some advantages in terms of there being some established rhythms and styles that you already talked about, but also you're falling into those rhythms. I'm curious where the line between those things, kind of like where your influence on, say, the sort of soft look of the flashbacks

and the sort of fuzz that's coming with those scenes. How much of that is what you're bringing to those sequences and how much of that is, this is what presumed innocent and we have decided kind of across the board this is going to look like. I've produced Anne before when we did Castle Rock together, and I think that, you know, so we already knew each other.

We ran into each other in Oslo when I was giving a talk about House of the Dragon. And she's like, oh, you know, I'm going to go do Presumdinsent. And I was like, oh, I had heard about it, and Dustin Thomason, who I'd worked with as well. I shot him a note that I'd run into Anne and we'd take a picture together at this talk that I did. And he was like, I was literally just about to call you. And so, you know, part of it was, you know, Jake's comfort, having not done TV, was he didn't want to be switching directors every couple of episodes.

The fact that it could just be me and Anne provided a real continuity for the whole cast. And I think the cleanliness of being able to take that middle run, but also, you know, be having a dialogue with Anne about like, you know, what are the goals and what are the things. like, you know, these are the things that I'm going to be running up against. And these are the things for, like, you to be thinking about, like, I need to be thinking about this because, and we had conversation at different times about, like, with David about, like, you know, do we move some of this stuff into later up? You know, there was some stuff that was a bit modular in terms of, like, when he goes back to Liam Reynolds the second time. Like, does that happen in episode two or is that better in episode three or later?

You know, like, how when do you, the high wire act of, like, trying to keep people, you know, alive in the story. you know, just came from different directions, but there was an ongoing dialogue throughout it to arrive at the show. And then inevitably, you know, my episodes will feel a little different than Ann's. And I think that, you know, we each get to put our stamp on it, but collectively, because of the cast and David's writing, it has, you know, cohesion all the way across. But, you know, I had to really hit the gas on the thriller elements

because, you know, you don't want somebody tuning in to the first episode and coming back for the last. You want to feel like stuff is coming and new info is coming. And you know, you want everybody to have as much fun as you were making it as they watch it. You know, like when I hear how invested everybody gets, I think back to those conversations that we were having, you know, a year ago on set and seeing them pay off. That was supposed to be our last question.

But can I ask? Because I got distracted by the going out shirt and I failed to follow up on Tommy Maltow Cat Dad. You mentioned it was like an improv. Was the idea like, They're out of a bar and a flashback, and Tommy's like, I have to go because I have to feed my cat. Like, was that there? Yeah, he was like, he was like, oh, you know, I have a cat.

And then, you know, of course, like, Jake, yes, and they're so good. And he was like, it's like, what's your cat's name? It was like, it's Lucy from Charlie Brown. And, you know, and then he's like, so they, so, you know, it just kind of riffed from there. And so when we went home with Tommy, it was, it was something I was playing with because we were at the bar, that same bar that we were using when we were doing the scene with Tommy and Delet.

from episode three when they're kind of talking about, like, are you ready for this? Are you up for this? That scene, I thought, you know, it might be nice just to have a flash of happier days. So you didn't feel necessarily,

but it just, I couldn't quite make it work. But I had that great material. And so when we went to Tommy's house, I called David. I was like, you know, we had this moment that Peter's, like, brought up to me multiple times.

Once we first started going back with Tommy, he was like, was like, he has a cat, and he was like, oh, I love that. I love that. That's hilarious. Like, so, you know, David, like, worked it into the script. So I think, you know, it's just a testament that I think that it was an environment where, like, best idea wins. And, you know, everybody, you know, comes to the table with ideas. And when you have that, it was one of those times where, you know, sometimes you feel like, you know, I read, there's that clip that you see on Instagram a lot of, like, Tom Hanks saying, like, show up on time, hit your mark, know your lines,

come with an idea, you know, like, whatever his, his, like, teacher taught him. And I think, I think, you know, whether somebody had spelled it out or not, that's how, you know, I show up to work. And, you know, I think when people don't feel creative that day, you can step in with your thoughts and that ignites the conversation. And when they feel like they kind of have something that they were working on that they want to try out, like you give them the room to do it. And this cast every single day, like, came with something that far exceeded whatever you could imagine when you're home alone working on it. Excellent. I got my cat agenda off. Rob, did you have any any steakhouse agenda that you want to

pursue before we go? Oh my God, yeah. Yeah, we were trying to place the location of Rusty's one-man steakhouse dinner. I don't know if that was an on-location in Chicago spot or if that was somewhere else. That was, you know, that is actually over at Coles, downtown L.A.

And we use that bar. That's kind of the bar that we use. That was around, if you go like kind of L-shaped, and if you were on one side of it, that's where we did the Tommy delay scene. And then there was the bar itself. And that's where we figured it was like the kind of place where you can sit at the bar, get a steak and like have a bourbon. But it's like kind of a limited but very like, you know, meat-centered menu.

Very lawyerly. And it's way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Capitol Grill, but like not, you know, like that kind of sort of thing where it had a little more texture to it. I think, you know, we got lucky with a lot of the rain that we had in L.A. then to be able to, you know, make LA for Chicago. And, you know, we were shooting. We were able to, you know, we were pretty much confined to the back lot for a lot of the show,

which, you know, worked to our advantage, you know, during, you know, the writer's strike. You know, we were able to, we had the script. So we were able to, you know, keep going and get this thing done and not have to stop. And I'm, you know, I'm glad we finished it out. But, you know, everybody's proud of the work. I'm just glad we could get to the bottom of the two biggest mysteries. Where did Tommy's cat come from? What was the steakhouse?

We're asking and answering the biggest questions. Those are the real questions that everybody wants to know. Exactly. Yeah, I'm excited for people to see the finale, and I'm very, very curious what everybody thinks of that when it comes out. We can't wait. We're going to make Rob watch the Harrison Ford film, too, after he's seen the finale.

So, yeah, compare and contrast. We're excited. I put a little Easter egg from the film in the garage. Oh, we love to hear it. I was wondering about that, actually. I was wondering about that. Okay, cool. Thank you, Greg.

Appreciate it. It's so great. That was a lot of fun. All right, that's it for the Prestige TV. Presumed Innocent episode 7. Thanks to Greg for joining us. Thanks to Bill for joining us. Thanks to Rob, as always.

And thanks to Kay Grady for his production work on this episode. We'll see you for the finale. Bye.