The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Presumed Innocent’ Episodes 3-4: The (Murder) Plot Thickens

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

Jo and Rob build their case to recap the third and fourth episodes of ‘Presumed Innocent.’ They open by reading through a handful of listener emails before checking in on where the main characters are at halfway through the series (4:00). Along the way, they talk about their primary suspects, how race is changing the previously adapted story, and the shocking plot twist at the end of Episode 4 (18:35). Later, they discuss the complicated relationship between Ray Horgan and Rusty Sabich and what their bond says about the mystery at hand (39:52). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Van Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

Pee! We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Yes.

Back to the prestige, TV, podcast, feed. I'm Gwana Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. And we're back. In person. In person. We are in person. I got an ominous text said Pod City.

Two o'clock. Come alone. All caps. All caps. I show up, you're here. Yeah. Better than an abandoned silo, I have to say. Slouching in a hoodie in a dark and a shadowy corner.

Very chill. All right. We are here to talk about presumed innocent episodes three and four. We heard you. Thank you for your emails. We got more than I was expecting, actually, of people saying they want us to go week to week. We're not quite there yet, but we will be. Yeah.

Here's the plan. We're covering three and four today. Two weeks from now, we're going to cover five and six, and then we'll do an episode about seven, and then we'll do an episode about eight. How could you not cover the penultimate episode with its own episode? It begs it. We're just going to be right on the verge of answers. I think so. I suppose.

I would hope so. We're going to talk about that What episode 8 might reveal Here's the promise From me to you that I thought we made Clear last time but I'd make it doubly clear I Joanna Robinson have seen The Harrison Ford film

Presumed Innocent I have not read the book Yeah by Scott Turrow Rob Mahoney has not seen the Harrison Ford film I have not Has not read the book Zero knowledge of its plot or mechanics And is just delicately

Walking on Eggshells around the is not opening your emails, is scared of spoilers, and we're here to protect Rob, this means we're here to protect you. So we are not going to be spoiling anything from the Harrison Ford film, other than some actor names

that I'm going to read for you today. Or from the book, we have some questions and theories about the ending that we're going to talk about generally. Definitely. Once again, Rob doesn't know how this story ends, and that's how we like it here. It's how I like it for sure.

And I appreciate all the protection. that you've offered, Joe, that Kai, our producers offered, that our listeners have offered thus far in not spamming me with spoilers about this thing. So we are in a sacred pact. You and I and everyone listening to the show, and I just want everyone out there to know, I deeply appreciate it.

Everyone's been really chill. Very chill about it. It's been really nice. A lot of tiny little suck and fuck subject lines, which goes straight to my heart. Not and. Tiny little suck fuck. Sorry.

My mistake, I regret the error. Was definitely the most common subject line we got in the email inbox this week. Y'all are real ones. The email, Scottish malt carpet at gmail.com. Yes. Another Mahoney classic.

It's a very tasteful color, I think. It goes with everything. Right. So Rob and I are going to cover most of, most of presumed innocent, all of it actually, but in a certain cadence. We do want to start with your emails. And on the spoiler front, here's how we're going to talk

about the first one. We got an email from Shannon. We were asking, I was asking Rob last week if there was a Harrison Ford movie where he played the villain. And as soon as we rapped, Rob was like, I didn't want to spoil it, but I thought of one while you were talking. But it is like a sort of a twist in the movie, so you didn't want to spoil it. So we're saying, how are we putting it, Rob? Some decades ago.

Some decades ago. Harrison Ford was in a movie. Where he was the bad guy and it's sort of a surprise. But we don't want to ruin that surprise for you if you ever head to your local blockbuster. Those don't exist anymore. This is the pact. This is the trust we are building. But Shannon also wrote in about that movie.

So I just wanted to give Rob credit that he brought up as soon as the pod wrapped. But he didn't want to say it because he wanted to preserve your innocence. Another email we got from Kyle. Here's something that everyone listening and Rob here in the studio should know about me. If you send me an email telling me I mispronounced someone's name, I might accidentally watch an entire documentary about them, which is what I did. So in the original Harrison Ford film, there is a character called Sandy Stern, who winds up being the defense attorney for Rusty.

Yeah. That character has been combined with the Ray Hogan character in the show. Though Sandy Stern gets a name shout out in one of these episodes. With our new defense associate, Maya Winslow works for Sandy Stern. So he got a name shout out. Is that just like an Easter egg for fans? Anyway, the actor who plays Sandy Stern in the year. original movie. Most

Americans call him Raul Julia. Uh-oh. I think I said Raulia. Okay. I didn't go back and check, but someone sent this email. Kyle sent his email and was like pronunciation check, okay. And I was like, oh no, what did I do? Okay. So then what I like to do

and you did this with one of the actresses in the cast list is I would love to find a video of them saying their own name. That's the ideal. That's the best way you can figure out what's correct. Sometimes you have to settle for like a late night host. trying to pronounce their name and to varying effect depending on their country of origin

or how complicated their name is. That's a mixed bag, but if you can find them pronouncing their own name, that's gold. That's the podcaster's ideal. Yes. Not very successful, but I did find a PBS American Masters documentary

about Raul Julia. He's from Puerto Rico. So he pronounced, like, professionally, Raul Julia. Yes. That's what most everyone calls him. When his, like, cousin from back and border Rico was talking about their family, they said Raulia.

Okay. Okay. And this is the final thing I'll say. And then you guys are going to be like, wow, your way off. Can we just talk about this TV show? And we will in a second. I just need you to know this thing. I was like, where did I get this from?

Why did I do this? And then I realized it came from my mother, a white woman, who is fluent in Spanish. Yeah. Likes people to know that she's fluent in Spanish. I grew up in the Bay Area where we both live. So there's like a town. In the Marin County, there's a town called like Tiburon, which is. Spanish for Shark or San Rafael, blah, blah.

My mom would say Tiburon. She would say San Rafael. She could not be stopped. This is just the thing that she would do. And that's definitely where I got Raul Julia from. Anyway, I will, so it's not to sound bizarre. Probably switched to Raul Julia. That's how he, like, that's what he chose professionally.

That's his professional name at this point. But I appreciate you doing the work to isolate how you got there. But I was like, oh, Tiburon. I knew it. But the documentary is fascinating, the PBS American Masters. He's a fascinating person. On that front, this is definitely way more related to what we're talking about here today. On the absence of Sandy Stern, on the fact that we see that Ray Horgan is going to be the defense attorney here.

We had an email from listener Michael, who I think brought some of his legal knowledge to bear on this and was like a little freaked out about this change. freaked out as a strong way to put it. He said, I find the decision to cut the Sandy Stern character out of the show infuriating, as was the absurdly unrealistic idea that a prosecutor on trial for murder would want an out-of-practice prosecutor who was also his friend to represent him. In the book of the movie, Rusty did exactly what any good prosecutor going on trial for murder would do. It happens, I'm sure. They would know the defense bar in their city very well and would hire the best defense attorney they could get. having watched episodes one and two,

how would you feel about a version of the show that merged the character of Tommy Moldo and Nico Deluguardia, fresh off his victory, taking on this prosecution. That is essentially what they've done here. Actually, Nico's in the courtroom, so that is what they've done here.

Thank you for your email, Michael. This adaptation change is juicy, as we discover in three and four, especially like with the dream that Ray has and the conversations that he has with his wife, juicy for interpersonal connection and conversations, stuff like that. legally, maybe not the move.

How do you, are you, I know you haven't seen the original, so how can you compare? But like, do you have any thoughts or feelings about that? It's total nonsense, but it's the kind of total nonsense I want. Yeah. In the same way that if I watch a medical drama, I don't want it cut and dry, actual medical facts. I want a little dramatization. I want a little flair. Like I mentioned in the last pot, I want a prosecutor turning defense and trying to figure it out and kind of doing it, but maybe not well.

And to his credit, I think this show gets to have. it's cake and eat it too, because we're bringing in an associate who is fluent in defense and who is kind of checking the water tightness of the case and specifically, like, should Rusty even be on the stand plausibly to begin with? Absolutely not. Yeah, let me tell you. Hard no. Hard no.

Okay. Maya, let's start there. Because this is the last thing I wanted to do on this sort of compared to the movie front. Something that we didn't do is run through some of the names further down on the cast list. And I wanted to, one of the pleasures of watching presumed innocent, the film, now, which is something Rob and I talk about doing like maybe at the end of the season, is the associate,

the Maya character, is a much smaller role, like all these sort of minor roles have been beefed up for the TV show because they have more space to fill. Yeah. It's a much smaller role, but it is just there in the background, like sitting there behind Raul Julia for like a lot of scenes. You nailed it, by the way. Thank you.

Bradley Whitford. A very young Bradley Whitford is just there in like a lot of scenes in for Zunders and. And I just wanted to hit you with like some other names down the cast list. We spend more time with Detective Alana Rodriguez in this episode. That detective character who's somewhat like sympathetic to Rusty's plight, played by John Spencer, West Wing fame. Oh my God.

This is incredibly sork and pilt. Rusty's son played by Jesse Bradford of bringing on a very young Jesse Bradford. Of, was he in swim fan? Yes. Okay, of swim fan. Absolutely. Of swim fame. Of swim fame of hackers fame, just a real 90s.

Appears for like 30 seconds in William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Very important. Absolutely he does. What a great call out. Joe Mazzello. This is... Of Jurassic Park fame. This is quite a log.

Is the kid in the flashback trial. Okay. And then last but not least, the great Jeffrey Wright, is another attorney. Just like very low down the castle. This is all very... like Andre Brower in the background of primal fear just like come in throw in heat, minimal scenes.

These are very juicy parts and honestly we talk so much about the movies that don't get made anymore. Those are the sorts of roles that maybe we're missing too is that pipeline of come into this adult drama and be like the flash in the pan energy of two scenes

and then all of a sudden you have this incredible trajectory from there. I'm really excited for you to watch this movie eventually. I can't wait to get there. What if we can we can contentize it? Can we bring the people who have also not seen the movie along with us.

Yeah. Maybe it's a splinter pod. I don't know what's going to have. We'll discuss it. Rob is just itching and you do a watch along. It's like all you want to do in your life. Absolutely not. There will be no live stream of any kind, but maybe we can discuss amongst ourselves.

We kind of want to go not exactly character by character, where we want to focus in on some of these people who are in the spotlight. Do you want to start with Detective Alana Rodriguez? I thought you would never ask. Okay, great. We meet her in episodes one and two, but we get a bit more sense of the role that she can play in this episode, which is, you know, you know, you know, you can play in this episode, which is in these episodes, which is

Nico and Tommy are like, you're off the case, you know, we don't want you anywhere near it. And she's like, guess what I'm going to do anyway? How do you feel about it? I mean, she's clearly our way of advancing the investigation that Rusty himself can't really do anymore. And frankly, given his role,

probably shouldn't have been doing in the first place. Because maybe it will wind up with him beating some guys' face on his porch. I mean, he's just making the worst possible decisions at basically all times. But Rigo in her way is also making some bad decisions, bringing him along and allowing him to be party to that. But we get a sense of their kind of allegiance to each other. These are two people who worked together on these sorts of cases for a long time.

I think she, if not totally believes him, at least wants to get to the bottom of what may be a more complicated truth as to who killed Carolyn and thinks that there's more to uncover here, which is important. And certainly more than, you know, say the prosecution is willing to do at this point. That brings me, I don't want to like speed forward. I mean, basically all I ever want to talk about is Tommy Maltow. I love basically every single scene we got with Peter Sars Guard. As with episodes one and two, as Tommy Maltow, our producer Kai would like to ensure that we talk about Tommy Maltos' off-duty shirt that he wears in the bar scene with Nico. What is there to talk about? It's just getting a fit off.

It's just a masterpiece? I mean, Euro-Trash Tommy Maltow? What is it, like four buttons on buttons? A lot of buttons unbuttoned. Very, very damned flashes for the, I think you should leave folks out there. It's a very expensive shirt because the pattern is so complicated, I can assure you. It's like, are there zebras on there, but also flowers? I don't know what's going on.

There's so much going on. But Woodcock, for the record. Okay. I think that that scene between Tommy and Nico, who have been a fairly united front throughout, and Nico, who is an antagonist. And again, I said I wouldn't talk about the movie again, but of all the deepening that they've done, making Tommy and Nico much more dimensional than they were in the films

where they're just like assholes. And I don't, they're assholes, but assholes with like layers to them. Yes. So this idea of Nico calling Tommy out, calling him out on his narcissistic complex and his persecution complex. It's like a duplex. Incredible. sounds expensive to fix, I believe is what Tommy Maltol said.

Also this idea of like Tommy got into this to impress the girls. The girls are sure going to like me now. And he's like, and they do, right? I thought that was one of those things that in the moment, you know, they're recounting the moment in which he is named, I believe, like chief deputy prosecutor. Right, right, right. And this, he has said this in Delagordia's memory. I took it as like a tongue-in-cheek kind of comment,

but maybe one of those that also reveals some deeper-seated insecurity about him and what he's in this for and what matters to him. And to kind of what we were talking about in the last episode, maybe some of the reason for the resentment between him and Rusty, right? Like he identifies, for example, is it Eugenia, the woman who works in HR, that maybe she has like a little crush on Rusty, right? That there's maybe there's some dynamics here where it's like, he gets all this attention and he gets these accolades and I don't get any of it.

Right. But now maybe the girls are going to like me. I mean, it really, I felt energy throughout this when he's talking about Rusty and Carolyn, like what was, how did Tommy feel about Carolyn? Yeah. You know, is a question I think I wanted to ask. And also, yeah, the Eugenia stuff. Eugenia, by the way, played by Virginia Cole, who played Percy Jackson's mom in the Percy Jackson show.

And that sounds like a silly thing to bring up. But she's phenomenal on that show. She's so, that's the part that. Well, Catherine Keener played the part in the movie. So listen, it's a juicy part. Unimpeachable, Catherine Keener. But Virginia Cole is like is the juice in that show for me. And so when she shows up here, Eugenia so far has been like a pretty minor character.

But I was like, oh, my God. They also really want us to know that she's going to testify this trial. Aren't they talking vaguely about a guy that Carolyn had to work with that she felt uncomfortable around? Okay, so let's dive into this. Because the way in which we are introduced to the idea that Carolyn might have been scared of someone at work is through Michael. Right. Her son who she barely acknowledges the existence of. Right.

Who is brought in to kind of confirm his version of the case, which we should say he's involved in now because he's been lurking outside her house, taking video and pictures. For weeks, months. Who knows? Who knows? A kid's got to have a hobby, ultimately. Also, however you choose to connect with your parent is how you choose to connect with your parent. It's all very complicated. And if it's videoing them with their lover, sure.

Who are we to judge? Oomst. So he's brought in to confirm, you know, the photographs, the timing, all the details that have now been brought to light for this case. And he tells this story to Tommy Malta, who also seems a little bit suspicious of the story as he's telling it, at least my read of that performance, about how he actually had talked to his mom. And they had agreed to have lunch. And one of the things that she told him was that she was afraid of someone at work or where, about someone at work. And as he's telling this story, you can see kind of a side eye between creepy little Michael

and his dad as if this is something they've discussed before, maybe, as if he's been kind of coached in this direction, perhaps. It felt to me like a construction. And with that, all of which is to say, I don't know whether we should take her being scared of someone at work at face value or not. I clearly agree. But I think what's also important is how vague that is in terms of who she's scared of. Yes. And clearly the scene is meant to point at Tommy Moulto in like a dun-d-d-dun kind of way.

I just think it's in the mix. It is in the mix. I want to circle back to this because I took it in a different direction. Okay. Yeah. Should we take it in that direction now? I think my primary suspect right now is De La Gordia. Okay.

I think if you look at all the characterizations and the passions and the interests and the motivations that would lead to someone to commit murder of all the characters we know, obviously there's Rusty. There's a crime of passion potential there. There's the pregnancy complication. We don't know this character. He is dodgy as fuck in every conversation he has by design. Clearly he's on the board. I still don't think it's him.

And if I want to look at who else would have like a very strongly rooted character reason to do anything. I think the thing that's been explained in the greatest detail and with the greatest heft so far is De LaGuardia as a politician. As this is someone who has something to lose in the sense. that he's really ambitious. You know, when Raymond comes in, for example, with a plea opportunity, he's almost not really speaking to the facts of the case. He's kind of speaking to the political instincts

and the capital that would be required and would be-de-Liguardia would have to give up in order to even execute a case like this in order to even argue a case like this. So, you know, could De LaGuardia be involved with Carolyn in a different way? Say, for example, you know, the previous murder case, Bunny's case.

could he have been involved in kind of steering her in the direction of pointing the finger at Reynolds who's now in prison, which we now know is at least an exaggeration of the truth or an omission of evidence to this second seaman sample? I mean, we're so far in the weeds. We're getting to second semen sample. I'm sorry.

We are down the road with this thing. To simplify, I think he is in a position to be compromised because he has a lot to lose. He wants to have and wield power. And I wonder if maybe he's the kind of person who would commit a violent crime to preserve that. I love that. And especially like given how much emphasis there has been on the political aspect of everything.

Definitely. That's very interesting. Anyone else on your suspect list right now? I'm going to save us all some time. None of these kids did it. None of the kids. 100%. This is classic early to mid-season.

We got to throw some more suspects out there. Oh, this kid was riding a bike. Oh, my God. When the son showed up with his hoodie on the bike, I was like, oh, no. Though I think it led to a really great moment. which is when Barbara is watching the bike. And she says to Rusty, sometimes I think you forget, your son is black.

Yeah. And this is, you know, in terms of introducing, like, the way that they've cast this show on the one, you know, I read you the cast list from the original movie. It's just a bunch of white guys.

Murderers Row, though. Yeah, that's just like a bunch of great white guys that we love. And Jeffrey Wright is also, the fact that they're introducing a racial element, like, there's one thing to colorblind cast something and then just like pretend that that wouldn't change the story at all. And it's another

to do this and say, okay, here's a guy, rusty savage, his wife is black, his kids are mixed, et cetera. How much does he think about that in a place like Chicago? And then how much does it matter to her that the bartender that she's flirting with is a black guy who can understand her on a different level, understand how she navigates the world on a different level than her white husband can't. Totally. He's not so hot as hell. You know, he's smoking. Do you want to talk about the hot bartender?

Let's save that for a... Are you sure? I want to get deeper into Barbara Storrex. I think she has a great kind of through line over these episodes and a lot to do in a way that I appreciate like this show giving her room to breathe and to kind of explore her story. But to your point about adding a racial element to this,

especially in Chicago, we get a lot of references to just the amount of crime that happens in the city and how quickly people move on. All right. We're moving on new, new weak, new body. Exactly. Yeah. The quiet part that's not said out loud is the racialized element of that sort of violence in Chicago and specific. And so the fact that, you know, Barbara gets to put Rusty to this very specific point. Like, I think you're maybe so focused on yourself in this moment and the fact that you're on trial, that you're losing sight of the fact that regardless of the facts of the case, a black kid in a hoodie.

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save more when you bundle so you can stop dreaming and start saving. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Members only savings vary. What else you want to say about Barbara? We got a wild Rosanna-Arquette appearance as the sort of gallery owner. I don't know if this is the only time. Like, it was a wild moment for me because I'm just sort of like, I don't know. Maybe other people don't care that Roseanne Arquette showed up for like one day of work here.

but I think that's kind of a wild casting choice. That's that Apple TV money, if I've ever seen it. She's like, my sister is doing severance. I'm here to do presumed innocent. Just come on through. Just one scene. Just come on through. Love it.

I did love her advice of differentiate. Right. She's telling Barbara, like, it's not we anymore. Right. You are not him. You are not responsible. You're not we. You're not him.

Exactly. And we see her taking that to heart over the course of this episode. I think she's, you know, Barbara's really distaste. stabilized by not having this distraction. You know, she's been kind of expecting that if nothing else, all of her life is going to shit, but she can go to work and do her job. And she's being hounded by media outside the gallery. It's clear that this has become a sensationalized kind of case that's going to follow them

for a while. And to lose that, I think is part of what sins her on this journey over these two episodes of kind of like, she's trying to find what she needs. And work isn't going to be it. She has to go home and kind of coach up Rusty. console her kids, prevent her husband from freaking out at them periodically.

She doesn't have this primary distraction in her life. So yeah, she falls into the waiting arms, metaphorically speaking, of a hot bartender. What do you want to say about that hot bartender, Rob Mahoney? Look, Kai and I had a journey

with this bartender who was played by Serunus J. Jackson, Clifton, the bartender. It was bugging the hell out of me where I recognize this guy from until I realized, and Kai did as well, he's currently on the FX show Clipped

covering the Donald Sterling saga inside the Los Angeles Clippers in particular, not as he on is he on this show? He's one of the NBA player surrogates that have gotten much criticism and attention playing especially Matt Barnes I have to say,

Clifton with the stubbly beard situation in the bar lighting. He's looking a lot better than someone trying to sport Matt Barnes's 2014-era facial hair. It's not a great look for him on that show but he's looking great here.

I see the appeal. You can hear more of Rob Mahoney's clips takes elsewhere on the press TV podcast. All right, so we get Barbara at work, Barbara in this like dally into the bar, Barbara getting advice from Lorraine Ray's wife where she's like, go for it, have an adventure. We'll go back to how that adventure concluded in episode four. But I want to talk about Barbara in therapy as well. Okay. Because I was watching this.

I was already raising my eyebrow with the fact that both Rusty's solo therapist and his couple's therapist were the same person. But I was not upset to see more Lily Rib on my screen, right? So excited about that, Dr. Liz Rush. Then when they sent their son to Dr. Liz Rush, I was like, are you kidding me? Just a bad idea. Talk about legal malpractice. This is a terrible idea. and then at least the show itself acknowledged that.

And Lily Rape's character, Dr. Liz Rush, is like, we need to not have me be the therapist for every single person in your family. Yeah. That's fucked up. And she's like, you know who needs a therapist more than anyone right now? That's a you, Barbara. Yeah. Because of your propensity to try to fix things and what does that come at the cost of?

What did you make of that exchange? Yeah. Your husband fell in love with another woman. He's now on trial for killing her. You need your. own therapist. Seems reasonable to me. I agree. Also that her explanation was we don't have the money for all that as to explain why they wouldn't find another therapist for their son who, like Kyle has now, he has discovered, we should say, the fact that Rusty was having an affair

before any of all of this happened. Before the murder, before the case, he was aware of it. That's revealed to us in these episodes. He clearly needs therapy. He clearly does need his own therapist. There was no feasible way other than the consensual. of TV characters that she should have been treating all of them at once. It never would have made sense. 100%.

On that front, I really love the kids. Kyle, one of my favorite shots of the episode, there's two versions of this. And I kind of want to, similar to where I like Teal Watch on True Detective

when we covered that, I kind of want to be on the lookout for like private public moment watch. So one version of that is when we see Barbara evading the mob oppressed that is coming after her and we see her her back against duck behind the wall

Yeah, duck behind the wall And we see all of them outside the window Yeah That's a striking shot I think it's like the thumbnail for the screener of the episode right She's wearing this like green dress It's great The other moment that I loved was when

Rusty walks past Kyle's bedroom And like pauses right past the threshold of the bedroom And he's standing there Kyle takes his headphones off like is dad going to come in and talk to me? I'm ready. And then Rusty doesn't do anything. But he's like, but again, like we're seeing our character on one side of a wall

and then we're seeing also what's on the other side of the wall and like who is perceiving them in what moment felt like an intentional parallel to me or maybe just something that the show is really interested in. And in terms of, we talked about this in episode one and two, these sort of various performances. Like Tommy Malto and his shirt and the bar feels like a performance. Absolutely. You know, Nico Delaguardia is always performing.

I cannot turn it off. We should say that O.T. F. F. Benley, who plays Nico Deliguardia, gave an interview to TV line where they asked about the way he talks. The accent choice. The accent choice. Well, really, the clinching choice as well. Yeah, yeah. It's a whole thing.

It's a whole jaw thing. Yeah. And Matt Medevich at TV Line, like, he listened to our podcast and he sent me this link. He's like, Germany, you're going to love this. He sent me the video. It was great. he based this way he's taught, this very affected way he's talking

on William Atherton's character Walter Pag from Ghostbusters. And he's like, that guy's a douchebag, Niko's a douchebag. I'm going to do the same thing. And I just like, it is absolutely bonkers bananas to me and I love this choice.

It brings me so much joy. Especially, you hear all the time people who are playing villains trying to base their performance on some other very famous villain. Like a Hannibal Lecter type or a Hans. type.

Walter Peck. You said Hans Gruber? Yeah. You said Hidal Belector and my brain was just like at Hans Gruber. I mean, like you just pencil it in. These are the Titans, right? These are the columns in which villainy has been based for decades. Yeah.

Walter Peck and Ghostbusters. Yeah. Just one of the most immediately contemptible figures in cinematic history. You will never have a moment of sympathy for that guy. Exactly. And so the fact that that is the acting choice and he's trying to evoke that. Yeah. I think he's really telling about how we're supposed to perceive that character at

this stage in the story. I love it. I want to talk to you about the, what the show is doing with Rusty's guilt or innocence. Uh, where are we saying that again, Rob does not know how this story ends. I do not. Um, so we get the, they found his skin underneath her nails. Happens all the time. And it throws a passion perhaps. Happens all the time. Um, and he goes in a media, into paranoia, like they're framing me, Kumagai's framing me, Tommy Malta's framing me, they have it in for me. They kind of do, but like, he looks like... A lunatic.

An absolute lunatic. We've seen him sort of wiped down the steering wheel of his car. We see them swabbing the car, like, are they going to find any blood in the car? Do you think he took the car through the car wash? You might have.

Get that thing deep clean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just making sure. But like, where you with this physical evidence, how he's behaving, leaving aside him, like, beating some guys face in at the end of episode four? There's a lot of questions in these episodes that are intentionally left and literally left hanging. Characters will ask each other things and then a phone rings and we never hear the answer. I believe one of those questions is basically alluding to the fact that they're not going

to find anything in the car, right? There's nothing to find in the car. Right. We don't get a hard answer or even just like a reaction from Rusty about that. We just see the swabbing. We do come to the conclusion, the evidence-based conclusion that they have not found anything in the car.

It's not to say that there was never nothing to find in the first place, if you'll pardon the negatives there. But, man, he's just so dodgy in a way that does him no favors with his defense counsel, to say the least. Like, Maya is trying to get to know who this guy is, what his story is.

She's trying to help him by framing the narrative of how they're going to build their defense. And he can't even give her a straight answer. or about basically anything. This was one of my favorite parts of these episodes is I talked, when we covered episode one and two,

I said I was like a little over the trope of a guy talks to his therapist and that's how we find out about how he's his innermost feelings or what came before. Interrogation by Maya, though, I thought that was really good, really tidy, really smart where she's like, tell me emotionally.

And so we got to watch him watch Carolyn talk to this young child witness for this case, a key moment and it all felt very organic and natural to me

storytelling-wise. But yeah, I just love that she has a least conversation with him. I really love Gabby Beans who's playing Maya. I think she's phenomenal. She's got an incredible face that you just want to watch. Watching her process Rusty's absolute bullshit. Can you imagine? Jesus.

Christ, this guy. Such a thrill. It was like so good. And we're in her stead in a lot of ways. We're trying to process Rusty too. Right. And the show does a great job of kind of unveiling the paths before us. And in broad strokes, there's the two versions.

He killed her or he didn't. But within those things, there's did they argue? How much did they argue? Did they have sex? Did they engage in anything? There's this 51-minute window of time. We don't really know what happened. And he doesn't seem super inclined to tell anybody.

body, how that actually went. And you see it, all of these different possibilities, I would say, manifest in two particular moments. One is this conversation with Maya. Right. Where as she's asking him these probing questions, he's getting flashes of versions where he murdered Carolyn. Right.

And versions where he didn't. Yeah. And then there's the moment where he and Raymond revisit the crime scene. And you see, he's having flashes of coming to the crime scene for the first time and finding Carolyn's body and sort of the vis, like the visceral reaction to seeing this person you love bound and displayed in that way, murder or not. Like that has an effect on him. You also see this sort of love story unfolded in his memory of, you know,

them on the couch. Them on the couch, like Chinese takeout and cuddling and this warmth that I would say over these two episodes, I don't know if he's doing this or presenting this, but he's presenting a deconstruction of that idea. He ultimately gets to a place where he's telling Maya, actually Carolyn can be really cruel. and maybe manipulative. Maybe she was kind of pushing my buttons and trying to string me along

in my affections for her. And is that what really happened? Or is that the narrative he's trying to craft for this? And whether that's a narrative he's trying to craft for her benefit or for his own benefit is a question that the show

is asking of you. All those flashes in the apartment were kind of heartbreaking or very heartbreaking. But the moment where you watch them have sex on the... That's the Scottish Mall carpet. It is.

Having sex on the Scottish Mall carpet exactly where her body was discovered. Real sicko behavior, whoever came up with that move on presumed innocent. Okay.

None of the kids did it. We agree. Definitely not. Here's something I'll say about the ending of this show, which I don't know how it's going to go.

You were asking the question last time we covered the show, do you think they're going to change the ending? Since the ending is like kind of famous, are they just going to change it to keep people on their toes?

Right. Here's some bits and pieces of evidence without, while keep preserving your innocence, my friend. I appreciate it. Let's put it all on the board and we'll make our decisions. I would say maybe don't listen to Chris and Andy cover it on the watch because Chris is being a little more liberal with the everyone knows this ending sort of stuff. Okay.

But Chris feels kind of convinced that they're going to change the ending. I thought that was interesting. We don't have this screener for episode 8. Apple gave us one through seven we're watching one at a time. We haven't watched ahead, but we have access to one through seven. They've not put the finale on there.

When a streamer or, you know, a network doesn't put the finale of a show on, it's because there's some mystery element that they're trying to preserve. Yeah. So you and I both were like, that's funny that they haven't given us episode eight. It was flagable.

I will say this. There is a, tiny detail in one of these episodes that makes me convince they're doing the original ending. And I think that's vague enough that I'm not dipping anything for you. I love that. But perhaps people who are listening and remember the movie very well know what I'm talking about.

But when that happened, I was like, either it's there. Now I'm like spiraling out about this. Either it's there to indicate that they're doing the original ending or it's there as like a tease for the, those of us who know the original thing to make us think. Is it a head fake?

I know. Man, that's incredible. Let's just peel back the layers. All right. Let's go back to hot bartender. Yeah. So Lorraine is like, go have your adventure, friend. Get your groove back.

You deserve this. Your husband sucks. I don't even want to acknowledge his existence in my home. Deserved. Go have an affair. We get the cut front. From Clifton giving her his phone number to sex in a closet, animalistic-ish or passionate, if you want to say, whatever.

Intense, for sure. Intense. Sex in a closet. And it's a slow pan to reveal that it's not Clifton, rather, it's Rusty. She wants to smash Clifton? Yeah. But we get smash cut to Rusty. Oh, love it. I hope that was written verbatim in your notes.

Who's to say? Maybe it was in the original novel. Okay. And then later she's like, we don't have sex like this. Is that how you used to have sex with her? And he's like, no, but those of us watching at home are like kind of yes, actually. What do you make of all of that?

How does it make you feel about her story? How does it make you feel about his story? So with Barbara's story, I think part of this is getting the number more so than actually going to bed with the bartender per se, right? It's like it's getting your power back in a sense. It's getting a kind of release. Validation. A validation.

I still got it. And throughout these episodes too, in therapy and out, we're kind of confronted with the idea that Barbara is finding some reason to still be here. Right. She kind of is towing the line throughout these episodes of like, maybe I should just walk out. Rusty is approaching everything with a kind of indignation that is completely uncalled for. Right. Like yelling at his kids.

Like, what the fuck is wrong? with you, like lashing out at Barbara, lashing out at Raymond, and like talking about how everyone else is responsible for all these things that are very pretty clearly his fault. Yeah. And so she's going through a lot. And I think part of her process in dealing with all that is finding some outlet for that sort of thing.

Finding, you know, in this case, like flirting with this bartender and getting this kind of positive attention and having a meaningful conversation that is about what the shit that's going on in her life, but from a 10,000 foot view that maybe. feels a little less, like, sensitive and a little less overwhelming to her. So I love that she has that space to explore outside of just being in her house and being the dutiful wife and mother who has to clean up all of this shit. We're really treated to trying to understand who that character is and what they would do in this moment.

Yeah, yeah. Ruth Nago, we love. Absolutely. We love this performance. How's Jake doing for you? I mean, he's more extreme in these episodes in a way that makes you deeply suspicious. of him. And this is, I think, some of the problem with the acting in

mystery shows to begin with is when the show wants you to be suspicious of a character, it gets turned way up sometimes. And I think he's maybe a little over-modulated in that direction right now to the point where I don't know how you could watch episodes three and four and be like, yeah,

this is a chill guy who definitely didn't do it. It's definitely innocent. Come on, he's just a family guy. He's just a dad. And he's also getting dressed down by everybody along the way. And interestingly, there's kind of that parallel between De LaGuardia and Tommy Malto who De LaGuardia is laying out all the various complexes. He's talking about the kind of basically the vulnerability. What if we see Tommy Maltow in therapy with Dr. Liz Rush?

Look, she's got a very full client sheet. There's only one therapist in all of Chicago. Apparently. But you're getting kind of this dressing down among prosecution and defense in a way. And you see a mirrored relationship between Raymond and Rusty where Raymond is not treating him with kid gloves, right? Right. He's becoming aware very quickly of everything that he doesn't know

about this whole situation. The fact that Rusty was there on the night of, and there was photographic evidence of it, the fact that he is walking in to present a plea deal and is blindsided with DNA evidence under Carolyn's fingernails. He is so sure he's got him. And then here comes the blue folder. evidence. And this is where, you know, there's kind of a throwaway line early in this episode from

Lorraine, Raymond's wife. He has this very visceral dream of Rusty murdering Carolyn. And she says, dreams often point to the truth. And you could take that to mean maybe Rusty did it, right? Maybe he's having a dream and a vision of something that actually did happen. I almost took it in the, there's a literal line of dialogue that Rusty has in that nightmare where he says, you don't know me, you don't know what's in me. Yes. And I feel like that's the truth that Raymond has to confront is...

That he doesn't know. This guy's your friend, but you don't know him the way you thought you knew him. I completely agree that the truth of that dream is you think he did it. Yeah. Or you at least think he's capable of doing it.

And that's not something you would have said about him a month ago or whatever. Definitely. Also, I thought it was really interesting. We were trying to sort of characterize the Rusty Ray relationship. And you said mentor, which I thought was like a really good word.

Lorraine says best friend Yeah She says your best friend Rusty Wild Wild but also makes sense Given that they've just been In this kind of political

Foxhole together And have worked together Side by side for a really long time It's just like I don't With love and respect to all the bosses I've ever had I don't think I would call any of them At any point my best friend

Damn tough blow for everyone here at the ringer You know it's just brutal stuff I mean Mallory's not my boss Per se She's a pal and a colleague. I just think that characterization is really interesting and it makes it so personal for Ray.

But also we talked about this a bit in episodes, covering episodes one and two, the dismantling of all the ways in which Rusty was esteemed in the community. That things are so bad. It's not just that the media is hounding Barbara through the streets of Chicago, but that the parents at the baseball game

are giving her, her side eye for just clapping for her son. He got a strikeout. What are you supposed to do? The guy's putting K's on the board. Like, give him his due. But if you, like, I mean, love respect to Kyle, but can you imagine if Rusty were at the game?

Yeah. Like, the stands would have cleared out entirely. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, Barbara's... Anyway, so, um, I really love this as a, as an examination of someone

who was carefully constructed their life. to mask their innermost nature at home, in their marriage as a father, as a respected, professional, all these sorts of things, and how him being exposed has driven him to even more mania. I mean, I would say, leaving the movie that I'm thinking of is not Harrison Ford, presumed innocent. It's Harrison Ford in The Fugitive, where it's just, which is not. Dr. Richard Kimball has not have this darkness inside of him.

But it's just sort of like peeling back the layers on some, like, what will desperation push you to? Yeah. You know, whether it's like, you know, trying to prove your own innocence or, you know, everyone has decided something about you. And all of your respectability and all the trappings of your life are falling away. What do you then become? Yeah. Like if you had a little bit of darkness than you, how much darker do you go? in terms of, like, again, let's return to beating a man

within an inch of his life on your porch. How did all of that, that whole plot line go for you? Yeah, that's something we dug into the fact that he shouldn't have been there with Rigo to basically interrogate this character, Brian Ratzer, who were introduced to, who is the owner of the second seaman sample. That's it. Kai, that's the title of this episode.

The owner of the second semen sample, courtesy of ancestry.com. Now is where we start the ad read for Ancestry.com. No free ad. I did think that was a funny wrinkle. The fact that this guy is not in a criminal database, but they're able to kind of triangulate his DNA through Ancestry.com and figure out that this is another potential suspect in the, at this point,

fully prosecuted Bunny Davis case that Carolyn conveniently omitted. And we do get a flashback of her back in that trial where she says, this man, pregnant paws, Liam Reynolds, as she's explaining her case to the jury during that trial, we almost see a moment of hesitation in Carolyn as she's

kind of selling, maybe what's not a lie, but even what she knows to not be as been slightly messed with. Definitely. And I'm really coming to love this performance from Renata Rinesfei, who is sort of a cipher for this show and these flashbacks are a cipher.

for the show where if we can crack what she is conveying in those performances in those moments, we crack the whole story. And so it leads you to really sit with every facial expression. And that's true in dreams and in reality to the point that I think the other potential truth we could have in a dream

is Rusty has this dream where he's imagining, in particular, Kyle going by on his bike and Carolyn reacting out of fear picking up the fireplace poker. And we've basically accepted the fact, or at least the story, has kind of hit us over the head with the fact,

bludgeoned us a la Carolyn with the fact that the fireplace poker is probably the murder weapon. Right. What if it's not? What if it's something that she picked up out of self-defense or fear? Right. And the reason that it's gone is not because it's the murder weapon, but because it has the killer's DNA on it, perhaps. Maybe she hit them with the poker.

Maybe she poked them with the poker. Oh. And that's why it's hidden. Rob, I really wish we could have like a conspiracy board, red string murder wall. in this studio. How do we not? For you to get all of your... Spotify, drop the yarn bag.

We need to get the budget up. It's got to be red, though. It's very important. I really love the sequence where she's, like, practicing for Rusty the case that she's going to make. And he flashes back to that moment. And the question...

Correct of him wrong. I didn't write it down. The question she asked is, like, what kind of man could do this? Or he's the kind of man who could do something like this? Something to that effect. When we cut back to her in that moment later, seems like Rusty is thinking about her in that moment. We don't get that repeated dialogue.

We just get her face in that moment. And it's shorthand for Rusty, is this you? Yeah. What are you capable of? What are you capable of? Again, pummeling a man. Like, we haven't seen Beyond Upson 4. I'm really excited to see how Tommy Maltow reacts to finding out that.

Jesus Christ. Let's run down the rusty sheet real quick. Yeah. I think this is helpful. In these two episodes, he goes to meet an ominous textor in an abandoned silo who is simply implicated, suggested that he was somewhere, doesn't even directly say the crime scene. Terrible decision. He continues an investigation into an alternative theory that he's basically told by Raymond

don't do this because it will basically create the expectation that we will have to solve it. But I will just say, I just want to go back to this idea that I introduced an episode one and two, that perhaps Rusty has also watched many episodes of Perry Mason because he's like, if we go in there, we have to have another person that we're pointing the guilt towards. We have to build a case that someone else did this. That may be true, but there were moments in these episodes that make me wonder if Rusty is even a lawyer to begin with. For example, what he says to his son, why would I accept a plea deal to a crime I didn't commit? Literally happens all the time.

It's a calculated legal decision. Now, there's reasons why we find out that Kyle is suggesting that he take a plea deal, in particular the fact that the longer discovery goes on, maybe there will be some evidence that he's been cruising by Carolyn's house a bunch. So I get the suggestion from him, but yeah, Rusty not covering himself in glory. He rides along for this questioning that he shouldn't be involved in. Do you think Jayden's going to wind up, his daughter is going to wind up having been in the bushes across the street?

I think she's in the house. How many kids? The call is coming from inside the house. She is the fire poker. Really, the fire poker is more of a metaphor when you think about it. We are the fire poker, but Jaden is in the house somewhere

for sure watching this because we have several episodes left and limited suspects to point the finger at. So she must be involved in some capacity. Okay. The way he's reacting to his kids in this episode is unhinged. Cruel, unhinged.

He's withholding so much shit. Barbara, send him to a motel. That's like, get him out of the house. house. What is he doing in the house? The fact that he's going from tearfully begging for their forgiveness to screaming at them so often. Yeah. Within the span of the space of one episode to the next and it sounds of weeks have passed. Yeah. This dude is off one. Like he's, he's wilding out.

This characterization of this character is why you get Jake. Yeah. No notes. All right. Anything else you want to mention before we go today? One thing I don't think that's going to happen, but I would love if it did. We mentioned earlier there's this 51-minute window where he is confirmed to be at Carolyn's triangulated. Actually, I have one more thing I want to ask about Chicago Steakhouses. So let's put that on the board. Put that on the board. Okay.

I would love if episode 7 or 8 of the season was a real-time 51-minute, what's going on during this window of time. Oh, I love that. I would absolutely love it. These episodes were titled Discovery and the Burden, which are real legal terminology. pregame, the elements, the witness, the verdict. Like, we're going to be in the courtroom for a lot of this. We have to be. But 51 minutes, you're right, is like...

Some juicy stuff. That's a runtime of an hour-long drama on Apple TV.com. My ears perked up for that reason. That's a good point. I don't think we're going to get it, unfortunately. Okay, do we need to get on the murder board? Do we need to get a map of Chicago? Yes.

And triangulate Carolyn's house, the car watch. and the savage home. I couldn't hurt. I mean. We know that their houses are 20 minutes apart? Yeah, bikeable. Apparently. Even in Chicago?

He books it over. Okay, so from the Steakhouse pretty quickly. Yeah. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what Steakhouse this was. Chicago renowned Steakhouse scene. Have you been to Chicago? I lived in the area for a couple years. I've never been to Chicago.

I've dined around. lovely city. Yeah. Great red meat atmosphere, to say the least. A lot of meat and potatoes happening in Chicago more broadly. Oh, sure. This did not look like the top line often suggested stakehouse establishments.

Your Gibson's, your Chicago cuts, it was not that vibe. This is why I love podcasting with you. I thought this bar looked a little like this spot called Vivette's. And I'm wondering if any of our listeners who are familiar with that scene who live in Chicago. If you, look, we want to know all your theories about presumed innocent. Please email us at Scottish malt carpet at gmail.com. If you have any theories about what Steakhouse this is, I also would love to hear it. We'll put it on the map. Let's put it on the board. So we, Steakhouse, Carolyn's apartment, house, the car wash. He gets the text. He gets the text at the

Steakhouse at 924. Okay. He makes it to Carolyn's house by 949. Okay. So non-rush hour. traffic. Sure. Give her take. Getting your car. Let's get the radio. Let's get the search radius established. So the TikTok is, he gets the text, he goes to her house, what's next on your timeline TikTok. Then he goes back home at 11,

which is how you get this 51-minute window. Yeah. In which we don't really know what they're doing. And again, like he's so weird about it. Why? Don't put him on the stand is the bottom line. Don't put him up there. What's your over under on Rusty getting up there on the stand? I feel like we got to.

I mean, you got Jake Kerry. You're going to put him on the stand? It's going to happen, and it's not going to go super well for him. Just watching him have supposedly normal conversations with people who are actually trying to protect him, those go terribly. So how is it going to be when there's really this professional rival in front of him? I'm assuming Malto is going to be the person cross-examining. I can't wait to see it. Oh, my God.

I want 51 minutes of that. Let's do it. Just Peter Sar's Guard cross-examining his real-life brother-in-law and Jake Dillen. Hell yeah. All right, I think we did it. Anything else you want to talk about? I think we covered it. I really do love that you looked up Chicago State Cows as you're a real one.

So that's episode three and four. Again, we will be back the week of July 10th to cover five and six. So you won't hear from us next week, but you'll hear from us the week after that. And then every week after that until presumed innocent is over. So that is our, that's our funky little NBA finals, join us to cover a dragon show. We're making it work. The bear is doing a binge drop. This is what's happening on the Prestige TV feed.

Scottish Mallcarpet at gmail.com. We really do want your theories. If you've got a spoiler in there, a book, spoiler, movie spoiler. Mark that clearly for Rob. Please. Throw in the subject line if you can. I would appreciate it. Please.

But, I mean, this is a mystery show. We want to hear your theories. Absolutely. And especially given that it might be a mystery show with an even different outcome than the established one. Do you think it was Dr. Liz Rush? Because she's just overwerewell. She's so busy, though.

Who has the time? She's overworked. Maybe she's like, oh my God, you've just caused so much more pain and suffering for me with this affair, Rusty. Let's just clear this off the table. I don't know. Rob Mahoney, it's been a joy. Always. Thank you, Joe.

Thanks to the great Kai Grady. Pressy-Sheedy Feet is grinding. It's just like doing it. It's just cranking out pods. And we will see you soon. We've got a couple other things planned for summer that we're excited about. Definitely. All right, bye.