The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Presumed Innocent’ Episodes 5-6: Whodunnit Theories, Red Herrings, and Dream Sequences

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Jo and Rob prepare for the trial to recap the fifth and sixth episodes of ‘Presumed Innocent.’ They open by discussing whether the series is suffering from the David E. Kelley red herring problem, their leading whodunnit theories, and whether Rusty is too unlikable as the story’s protagonist (2:07). Along the way, they talk about the various dream sequences throughout the series and how they’re being utilized (23:22). Later, they read through a couple of listener emails (and sneak in a few takes on ‘The Bear’ Season 3!) (33:36). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer

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I'm Rob Mahoney. We're back here. Talk about President of Denson. And we will be back through the rest of the season. every week for the next two or three weeks, depending on how you count weeks, we're going to be talking about this show. We're here today to cover episodes five and six.

So that is what we're covering today. So pregame and the elements, and if you have not watched those two episodes, you've got to go watch them and come back and then listen to us talk about them. Definitely. Rob, just really quickly, if people have questions, comments, or concerns

about anything that we've talked about, including perhaps state houses, where can they reach us? I'm so glad you ask. They should email us specifically at Scottish maltcarpet at gmail.com, or I've learned send it to any of your various DM channels. Correct. No, don't do that. Okay.

But if you know me, you can text me. But if you don't, then don't do that. Okay. Is that a Christian bailism? It's like the... A little bit. Yeah. Via Tom Holland.

That's where I learned it. I learned it from Tom Holland via Christian Bale. If you know my number, you have a problem, you can text me. if you don't know my number, then you don't know me well enough to have a problem with me. That's the one. I don't have any problems

with you for the record. Thanks, Rob. Ditto. So listen, we're going to start with, I was not super high on these two episodes. Rob was a bit higher and our producer Kai was a bit higher.

So we're going to talk a little bit about like sort of like what my potential issue might be and then like why it might be working better for you guys. I'm still really enjoying the season. I'm still like very absorbed in the performances.

But I just want to make like a quick I'm going to call it opening statement. just about David E. Kelly as a TV creator because like a zip through his career to say this guy started with LA law, a show that I've never watched, but is a very important,

foundational show for legal dramas, legal television in general. And it's your classic like 22 episodes per season kind of show. And then he went on to create a million other shows you've heard of, Duggy Hauser, MD, picket fences, Um, his, his, like, I think, heyday is Ali McBeal, the practice, Boston legal, Boston public. Uh, he wrote and directed one of my favorite, maybe my favorite, no, one of my favorite sports

movies, mystery Alaska. So didn't direct it. Wrote it. Wrote mystery Alaska. I love that movie. We'll talk about it anytime. Much love and respect to DVD Kelly. But all of those TV shows they mentioned are from the era of the 22 episode per season, um, you know,

case of the week kind of storytelling. The practice would occasionally go beyond that, maybe do like a three-episode arc, or you might have like a season-long sort of big, bad, looming in the background. I think that happened once or twice in the practice. But for the most part, we're doing case of the week kind of storytelling.

So then David E. Kelly has, as we move away from that kind of storytelling, David D. Kelly, like, has a bunch of shows that don't go at all. They get canceled one after another. And then he moves into the prestige era of Big Little Eyes on HBO. and then the undoing on HBO and here we are and now he is like

sort of become this new king of like the prestige soapy you know who done it kind of thing and I just think I was talking to a couple different like TV critic friends of mine about like why does this keep happening

with David E. Kelly when he is like you know such an important figure in the creation of television as we know it and by this keep happening I mean I feel like there's often a mid-season with the Davy-Dy-Cellie who done its show,

glossed over, I think, pretty well in season one, a big little lies. But this, like, we're chasing red herrings down various rabbit holes in a way that just feels like we're spinning our wheels until we get to, like, what actually happened. And I mean, in any who done in, I guess that's what you're going to deal with. And as long as what's happening while you're chasing those various red herrings that you know we're never going to pan out,

it was never going to be, you know, his son on the bike or whatever. It was never going to be that guy that he beat the shit out of, all that sort of stuff. Like, if that's happening and it's entertaining and engrossing enough while it's happening, then that's fine and you don't notice. And this show is still definitely entertaining, definitely engrossing, definitely incredible performances. But I am feeling and the way it's better than the undoing, but I'm feeling in the similar way that I did with the undoing, like just a bit impatient of like, what are we doing here in the middle? So my question for you, Rob, is like, do you feel like,

You not, is this a function of just me knowing how the story goes? And this is going to happen to me no matter what or what do you think? That's a great question. I do wonder if having the weight of the ending already lifted off you changes the whole experience of watching it when you get to this point specifically. Because I do think right now we are, to the extent that there is a sag, it's from the collective baggage of all of those threads. And you can even take out all of the out-of-the-courtroom stuff.

And if you just zoom in on the case, the sheer number of balls that are in the air attempting to be juggled at the same time is overwhelming to the point of being distracting. And so I'm really enjoying, I would say, particularly the courtroom experience right now and the drama of being in that setting and the trial is now officially underway. But then you start going witness by witness and every single one has their own thread to the point that we're going through Tommy Moldo as a walking HR violation. We're going through the medical examiner and all this beef in the office. Brian Ratzer maybe, Liam Reynolds, maybe. Oh, and by the way, Raymond maybe has a heart attack. It's just a lot going on to the point that it's not just the threads of how we solve the mystery, but the threads of even how the case is being tried.

It just feels like there's a lot of traffic for this stage in the season when, yeah, there are going to be some misdirects, there are going to be some red herrings. You want to have your full conspiracy board up on the wall and you're trying to edge everything together. But it feels like the board just keeps getting bigger, whereas we're not, narrowing anything down. We're not getting any kind of clarity. And if anything, the characters are making the kinds of decisions that are prolonging meaningless red herring plot lines, right?

Putting the trashed bike into the trunk to destroy the evidence is just the epitome of why are we doing that? Everything Rusty did in these last two episodes, I was just sort of like, I have a big question in the show, to be fair. It's just like, what are we even doing here? And to be clear, when I like dismissed a couple people like, it was never going to be this, is never going to be that. I just want to reiterate a couple things. I, Joanna Robinson, have

watched the Harrison Ford film. Never read the book, but I know the plot of the book. Rob has not. He is innocent as the Durbin Snow. And so we don't know how this season's going to end. They could have changed the ending. This is sort of like an ongoing question, I think, for a lot of people who know how it ends in the book and in the Harrison Ford film of like, are they going to change the ending? This is like a debate I keep having with our colleague

Chris Ryan, all this sort of stuff. So those people that I was like, never going to be that. For all I know, it is that person. And they're going to like go back and it's going to be that. So I feel like the way that they tied up those two stories that I said specifically feels to me like they're kind of off the board. But I could be wrong because I actually don't know how they're going to end this show. Well, let me ask you this about the David E. Kelly part of that. And the transition from procedural case of the week type television toward this sort of longer form, quote unquote, big bad or bigger arc storytelling. Do you think some of that churn in terms of the sheer number of plot lines that are being excised in this show comes from that sort of mentality of feeling, oh, we got to fill not just character beats every week,

but heavy plot every single episode. There have to be, the chains have to be moving. Things have to constantly be in motion in order for this to feel like a season of television. I definitely think that's part of it. I think that, like, if you ever watched Pickett Fences, which was like on its surface, like a quite normal sort of domestic kind of show.

And so a lot of the domestic stuff that he gets into in some of his later work definitely comes from the Pickett Fences era. There was just also always just like crazy soap opera twists happening on that show. I was like sort of digging into his CV and at one point when Allie would be able to practice and Boston Public were on,

he was in charge of 67 episodes of television every year. That's wild. While also landing Michelle Pfeiffer. He's like God King of the University of Kennedy Kelly, you know? We salute you. We do. We do salute you for that. It was really interesting.

LA law, again, a show that I never watched, but was such a moment for legal storytelling, legal-based storytelling, because there was this huge paper that a Yale professor wrote about LA law, about how it brought actual, like, whether or not it's wholly accurate, definitely, like, jinned up for drama.

It brought, like, the legal proceedings, back into or introduced it into legal storytelling in the first place, whereas stuff like presumed innocent or Perry Mason, and he specifically cited presumed innocent and Perry Mason, were about the lawyer acting as a detective trying to figure out who actually did it. Like that's really a detective story hiding as a legal thriller. And so I texted you and Kai when Peter Sarsger's character, Tommy Moldo, says Wadir in like one of his, I think in his opening statement, right?

He's like, you know me, you met me in Wadier. I got kind of excited because I do kind of like that really, like, nitty-gritty. Like, we're in the courtroom. And I actually thought we were going to spend much more time in the courtroom than we have thus far. So who knows, maybe that's the entirety of episodes 7 and 8. I don't know. But I think you make a good point.

I think it's a leftover from, like, he's maybe thinking in like a, I have to fill 22 episodes kind of way. And look, those are just our impressions. We are not qualified, as is clearly no one on this show, to issue psychological profiles of David D. Kelly or anyone else. But it does feel like it would lend itself to that sort of plot churn. On the big cork board of suspects behind you that is ever-spanding, where are you currently sitting with your whodunit theories?

I have never been more lost. And I think this is because there's so much going on. In my notes, I had just written down in quotes, sociopathic nut job because someone in these episodes was referred to as a sociopathic nut job, but so many things are happening. I don't even remember who that was referring to anymore. There are so many a sociopathic nut jobs in action. It feels like the finger is pointing very directly at Tommy Moldo in a different way. This was a Tommy heavy couple of episodes, which, again, I feel the plot gaze wanting

me to look at him, which makes me feel like it's not him at this point in the story for that very reason. And so because of the way we're kind of cycle. cling-through suspects and some of the red herring type plot lines that are either off the board or like reasonably off the board, I find myself thinking maybe for the first time all season that Rusty actually did do it. This stuff tells nicely into two different things I want to talk about. I'm going to move them around sort of in our order of operations. First and foremost, and this is sort of like someone at the behest of our producer Kai. Let's just talk about cat dad Tommy Maltow.

Oh, yeah. Well, I think you need to talk about cat dad, Tommy Maltow. How does it strike you that He is a cat guy. I mean, I think it's meant, it's, it's meant to be coded as this is, this guy is pathetic. And, you know, I don't like love that as a, as a cat owner coding. But it was perfectly done for him to just like walk into his empty house and like cuddle his cat. He's very sweet to his cat. I thought that was perfect. It just told us a lot about this character right away.

But I do think my favorite Tommy Maltow moment. And I really find myself just like sitting up and paying more attention when, SARS-Gar's on screen. Like, I think whatever he's doing, Tommy Maltow is just, like, really, really fascinating to me. When Tommy gives that absolutely, like, embarrassing speech to the gaggle of reporters, and then we just cut to Nico being like, can you explain to me how that was helpful? I laughed so hard at that. I thought it was so good.

As soon as he said, you know, there's this grotesque lack of accountability in the city, no, in this country. I was like, oh, we are off the rails. I wish he said, nay, nay in this country. We needed more nays, you know? He's really on his high horse. He's really grandstanding. You know, the Tommy Maltow mental duplex is a very busy place as we've explored this season. But the narcissism is really just off the charts right now.

And the persecution complex, right? Absolutely. He turns on Nico, his, like, closest L.A., And he goes like, dude, are you okay, though? Like, what's happening here? It's like you asking me if I'm okay as part of the problem. That's why people hate me. It's just like being undermined at every turn.

It was just pretty incredible. And also with Eugenia, played by Virginia Cole, who I really like, I mentioned earlier, I think on a different episode that she was on Percy Jackson and just like elevated that show to another level. I thought she was really, really good in her function here. Let's go to the disassociation. Because you mentioned, what is it, sociopath? nut job? Yes, that's what I had in quotes. If anyone can identify where that quote came from in these episodes, I would appreciate it. I think it has to be in reference to Rusty. It feels like something

that Ray would say about Rusty. Like, you need to not act like a sociopathic nut job or something like that. This is a Tommy Motto heavy stretch, but also a Jaden heavy stretch, right? His daughter gets a lot of green time in these two episodes. Well, as we know in this show, there's only room for one child to exist at a given point in time. Yeah, so his son just like disappears. I think he has maybe two total lines. It's about trashing his bike, and then he's just eating breakfast watching murder coverage.

But Jaden is taking psych. Love that for her. And she wants to talk to him about like sort of disassociation. How do you feel about like this idea of being entered into, like what is this due to your question of did Rusty do it? And could he possibly have done it and not, know he did it and is this a good way to sort of ease us into that idea? So it is a very 80s and 90s plot mechanic kind of idea.

That, you know, a separate personality did it, that there's like a blocked memory. Very in vogue, I would think, for the time of the original novel and the original movie, which makes me think there's some plausibility to it. It also creates a sense of realism may be strong, but maybe, again, plausibility within that character, where Rusty is flying off the handle so much and he's so abrasive with anyone who is trying to help him.

Yeah. That explaining some of that and some of the gaps in his memory and some of the weirdness of his behavior as him dissociating kind of makes some sense. Like his whole speech where he just rants at Barbara about her grinding his gears every time she tries to properly very reasonable questions. You know, you're keeping your murder stuff very shady. Like maybe you deserve to be.

ground. Can I just say that that is the moment when Jake lost me and he can get me back. He can do it. Yeah. But when Barbara decides to come clean about her dalliance with Clifton, the art student bartender. Art PhD. Art PhD. No, he has a PhD. So he's, he's Dr. Art. Art. Bartender. Hot Dr. Art Clifton bartender. Ph.D.

What a life he's living. Yes. Which decides to come clean and I was like, okay, Rusty, now's your moment to not be an asshole. And he was like, no, I've decided this is my moment to be my most asshole. This is when I wrote in my notes, is Rusty too unlikable? Because this is a question we had from the jump in terms of the difference in casting. What's the difference between casting? Jake Gyllenhaal versus Harrison Ford, America's Dad, except for that one movie we alluded to that we're not spoiling for people where he was not.

But let's say America's Dad or he's Indiana Jones He's on solo Is that the one where he's evil? It's Indiana Jones? He takes the grill for himself Well, you've never seen Crystal Skull? Oh shit.

But it's So what's the difference between casting that guy? Charisma Fountain. So likable. But then there's like this dark undercurrent And so you're sitting there and there are two conflicting things going on while you're watching the story

which is Did he do it? Is this guy? of murder. And I hope he didn't because I'm always rooting for Harrison Ford, and I would like him to get free. I don't want him to go to jail for this. Maybe even if he did do it, I don't want him to go to jail for it.

Like, he's a nice dad. He's a good husband, like, blah, blah. I find myself not caring whether or not this rusty gets. I'm like, I mean, I should care more to tell me multiple sense about, you know, nay, this country, the justice system, and whether or not, like, The guilty person goes to jail, but this guy, I was just sort of like, I would like to be rooting for you harder than I find myself able to right now. What do you think, Rob?

And there maybe isn't enough track being laid to make us feel differently. We get some moments of him goofing around with the kids or being kind of sweet with Barbara for a minute. But the way he grabs her arm, how violently he reacts in these episodes, how quickly he flies off the handle at even the smallest provocation, does make him deeply unlikable. What's interesting about that, even though it leaves us in this place, where frankly, I really don't care if that character goes to jail or not, other than to say, I do care about Barbara and the kids and their characters,

and it seems like they would be pretty shaken up if their trust were misplaced in believing that Rusty didn't do it. But you do get an interesting speech from Raymond where he talks about the burden of proof, not being some immutable concept, that you hope that the jury hears out a case on the terms of that burden, and that they have to judge it beyond a reasonable doubt. And if there's any doubt in their mind that Rusty did or did not commit this crime, then they have to judge accordingly.

But him being sketchy as hell almost moves the battleground of how the jury might rule. And the fact that he's acting that way in the courtroom all the time, I think does put the legal proceeding in a pretty interesting place where how the jury feels about him

might parallel the way we feel about him in a lot of ways. I would say I think the equation, whether or not, again, whether or not this show decides to make the ending, he did or he didn't do it. And it's sort of like Schrodinger's ending right now because I don't know. Like, I don't know what it's going to decide to do, like whether or not it's going to be faithful to the book or choose a different ending. And you guys decide trying to make that as like gray area possible as I talk about it. It's appreciated.

Like, I don't know what the show is playing to do with that. But I think whatever its intention is, which is, which is. to make us constantly wonder whether or not he has this violence in him has sort of overcooked a bit to the point where I'm losing that other part that I feel like is essential for the tension of the story of like, again, like similar to like watching The Fugitive and you're like, he didn't do it. I want him to be okay. So this time you really are Tommy Lee Jones saying, I don't care.

I don't care. The problem to me was some of the whiplash of this, too, of him being so deeply unlikable and then occasionally doing a nice thing, some of the reactions you get from the characters around him then don't seem wholly believable. Like, Rusty almost beat a man to death on his porch. And the next day, Barbara is pretty chill about it

in a way that I just don't believe that Barbara would be that chill about it. At least Ray has the decency to not be chill about it. Yeah, but his head's about to explode, you know? Just the things that Rusty does again and again, Like, we're just like, I don't know, I'm absolutely staggered by his bad decision-making that he does in the pursuit of his own innocence. And I guess that's kind of the point is like he's like Harrison Ford. He's getting frantic, right?

Like he is like being pushed to the boundaries of, you know, good sense, good judgment, which I guess to me is a harder story to watch over a longer period. creative time. There are a lot of unlikable characters in action right now. And maybe the only way to get a real counterweight for how

gross Tommy Moldo is being on a regular basis is to also have Jake playing pretty gross as Rusty. I think what's also true and again, I don't know how this is all

going to boil out in the end, but like the idea of Carolyn Palemis, I think they're characterizing her differently than they did in the original.

And we got an email about this from someone where they were like, wow, they really fucking like slut shame her in the original story. And I think that's kind of true. In the movie. In the book and the movie according to this person.

And so it's just sort of like, again, I don't think the show is that interested in that story at all. You get a little reaction from Eugenia as far as like not approving of it from a professionalism standpoint. Right. But it's not really a judgment about sexuality in any way. Right. Or this idea that she's like just seeing him to like get ahead. Like she openly says to Tommy like, I mean, in her trying to, like, get out of working with him, she's like, it would make sense that I would take cases with Rusty because it's better for my career to do so.

So this question of, like, is she sleeping with him for her career? I mean, I think in a 2024 sense, we're like less judgmental about that than we would be. If you hear that in the 80s, you're like, shock and horror, and you hear it now, you're like, well, it's not great, but, you know, I don't know. People do way worse to get ahead. So, sure, if everyone's consenting. So I don't know if some of that, that exploration of the seedy underbelly of like a character that you think you know is just all being sort of shoved onto rusty instead or I don't know. It's interesting. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound terseptite. The first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity.

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Call 1-800-545-99 or visit zepbound.lily.com. Dream sequences. Yeah. We're getting a lot of them. A lot of them centering around Ray, right? A lot of Ray dream sequences. Well, he's going through it. Physically, psychologically, his anxiety is through the roof.

clearly there's something going on there. Yeah, physical health is not great. And then some of these like sort of less of a dream sequence and more just sort of like an imagination sort of daydream stuff for Rusty. How is that working for you and introducing that element? I would say diminishing returns at this point. We're getting a lot of rage flashes. And first of all, I have a question for you, which is I have never had like a straight up body horror dream like my head exploding. Are those the terms in which you dream?

I know some people do have weird stuff like that. People, the one I hear the most about is like your teeth falling out, right? Yes, that's the classic. That's a classic anxiety dream. I don't think I've ever had that one. No, I've never, I've had like a falling forever kind of dream. Sure. But never landing and then exploding.

So no, no, no exploding in many parts of myself. So no. I have felt in my waking life like my head may explode, but not so much dreaming. No Kronenberg as body horror dreams for me. No, thank you. Thank you. But I've never been in the position of defending my quote-unquote best friend who is acting like he definitely did it.

So I don't know that level of stress personally. Look, there are tears to this stuff. And clearly Raymond is putting himself through a lot in undertaking this trial in the first place. That one was fine, if maybe like a little over-literized for what I would prefer in these sort of dream sequence. And I say that about a head exploding, literally exploding. it's more the rage flashes of we're already seeing enough of rusty freaking out at everybody.

I just kind of assume he wants to bash Tommy Maltos head in. I don't need to see it to drive that point home, I wouldn't say. Like when he literally grabs Barbara's arm, I'm like, that's, you know, I feel like... Tells you a lot. And we see him beat the shit out of a guy on his porch. Like, we get it. He's capable of range and violence. We have seen it.

And those are the things he doesn't even hold back. I think it's safe to assume there's worse going on in his head. I will say, though, in general, I think just below Peter Sarsgaard is Tommy Moldo, Bill Camp, as Ray, is, like, really working for me. Bill Camp is the kind of actor, I think, who you could just watch, read the phone book, and it works. But there's just something about what he's doing here where he can make any, anything that feels just like a little belabored or a little, you know, really another red herring

or whenever I get sort of like a little fatigued with the story, like he has a way of just drawing me back in, like his rooftop conversation with Rusty. Like all of those scenes really, really work for me. That's just a function of an actor who could do literally anything. Yeah. I mean, within this show, he's both reality check and comic relief in a lot of those scenes, which is a great combination to have when Jake Gyllenhaal was flying off the rails on a regular basis.

The only thing I got caught on is do we really think, Raymond would vape. He doesn't really seem like a vaping guy. I wrote that in my notes. Absolutely not. No. He's like, he's either smoking or he's like patching and gumming, maybe.

Yeah, I could see trying to quit. I could see smoking literally anything that's not electronic. I just don't know about the vape. No, he's not a vape guy. 100% agree. On the like reality check kit comic relief, we got very little Lily Raib in this episode, very little therapy hour.

What did you make of the scene that we did get? and do you wish we had more? Do you like that we're sort of moving away from that? How do you feel about it? I don't think we need it as much once you get some of the emotional stakes established. And here you get it as an important voice. And maybe this is the critical aspect of clarifying

what her role is going to be in treating specifically Barbara. Because Barbara doesn't have a lot of people other than Lorraine that she can really confide in. And Lorraine has pretty clear investment and has her mind pretty well made up on this whole situation. I think you forgot about Dr. Clark Clifton Bartender. Well, yeah.

They're still so early in their relationship. She's trying to see his, you know, his projected art. They got enough to work through that she doesn't also need to dump all this stuff, including about him on him. Okay. You didn't feel qualified to psychoanalyze David Kelly, and I appreciate that about you. But do you feel qualified to judge Dr. Art Clifton, bartender, PhD's projection art? And how do you feel about it?

It didn't feel like PhD material to me. No. It was a vibe, though. Like if you're going to invite someone over and like try to seduce them, like that's an excellent vibe. Plus the music that was playing, like I think he set the scene very well for that. But in terms of like that's some great art, I think Barbara was sort of just being like, well, he's extremely hot. So I will just be complimentary to this. Well, she says it as nicely as she can, which is that it makes her feel safe.

And he's like, all right. A lot of kid stuff going on. You talked about one kid in, one kid out sort of storytelling. But we did get a little, we got the return of Michael, Carolyn's son, and he had an extended sort of on the stand interaction. I felt this interaction highly aggravating as I think I'm supposed to. Yeah. But in a way that I'm not sure was additive.

How did you feel about this? Also frustrated. And maybe these are the sorts of ways around the edges that they're hoping to get you back on Rusty's side. Look at this little kid asshole on the stand saying ridiculous things

that are being stricken from the record every five seconds, just lobbing conjecture into the air. And that simply by the process of doing that, we're kind of nudged a little bit more toward Rusty. And the idea of at least justice, if nothing else, like we want to know the true answer as much as anything.

And he's getting in the way of perhaps some kind of true answer. So from that perspective, he's a very frustrated character. I don't exactly know what we're supposed to get out of his testimony other than the fact that Raymond has pushed to the point of having what appears to be a heart attack. That brings me to my next point, which is cliffhangers. The show loves a cliffhanger. They certainly do.

What's going to happen to Ray? Is Rusty about to kill a guy in his front porch? What's his son doing there? with blood. Who knows? It's one of the more frustrating things to me in these two episodes

are those, and like a couple of the ones preceding it where I'm just sort of like it smacks of desperation of like we're not sure you're going to come back next week. It's a lack of confidence

is what it feels like. And I just, I, you know, I, of course I'm going to come back next week and watch Jake Gyllenhaal be a little freak. Of course I am. Yeah.

Why would I not? You know, and so I don't need, and especially since like the resolution is usually inconsequential thus far you know what I mean like he beat the shit

out of a guy in his porch and what were the consequences of that nothing too profound as far as I could tell yeah maybe none at all yeah

like is Ray gonna die in that courtroom I don't actually I don't literally I don't know because as I mentioned to you they've conflated his character

with another character so we're sort of off the map there as far as like there's no spoiler for me to conceal or share with you there

but I don't think I don't think this is the story we're watching is this this is a trial that kills Bill Camp like I don't think that's the story we're watching so like Michael's testimony

was the real murderer all along exactly but I've moved to the sun of the board so yeah it just it feels like I'm like yeah have more confidence in your in your show like you don't need that if if we need Ray I mean like let's play this out again

because again this is sort of off the map of the book so I don't or the movie so I don't have a spoiler here Let's speculate. What's the narrative function of taking Ray off the board here? Like, are you going to have to watch Rusty defend himself? Is that what you expect to have happen? Like, what do you think?

I think it's a real possibility. Yeah. And we've already laid out how dangerous it is to have him speaking in a courtroom. It was interrogated at that point with the idea of him being on the stand. But if he's having to litigate his own case and argue his own case, in some ways, it's even more of a mindfield. Right. Coming across is credible and likable and believable while also getting out, all the information you need from witnesses who are frankly hostile toward him as a defendant,

that seems like a pretty tough path to walk. And yet maybe that's ultimately where we go. The question for me would be, is Maya a part of that formula or defense team or not? Does he trust her enough to work with her, given that she was brought in late in the process? And her role has also been basically to tell him, you're acting like a crazy person on a regular basis. So maybe he ends up being his own advocate, like full stop. And there's really no one else in his corner. the narrative function is to isolate him

even more than he's been isolated. But if that's the case, I'm going to be pretty frustrated by that outcome. I like the relationship between Raymond and Rusty. I like the fact that Rusty is, in many ways, an impediment to his own defense. And kind of their conflicting urges about how to solve this case

and their philosophical disagreements on how to navigate any of this stuff is part of what makes the story fun. And so if Raymond is incapacitated, if not dead, and he's healing up in a hospital bed somewhere, that's a negative outcome for a show that needs him as a character for all the reasons we already laid out. Perhaps it's a moment that like, sorry to call Ray's

a medical incident plot device, but maybe it's a moment that is needed to pull rusty up short. And you know what I mean? Like maybe he's just sort of like, your thought and a thought I definitely has, this sends him further spiraling. But what if this is the thing that finally like just throws a bucket of cold water on him

and it's like, oh God, you know? like, I need to actually listen to other people's advice for a hot second, perhaps. Or just not listen to your craziest instincts. We got this juicy email that I am trying to figure out how to talk to you about. And I think I can talk around. Thank you to everyone, with only like a couple exceptions that I think I sniped before Rob had a chance to look at them. Everyone's been really like clear about emails they sent in that had movie spoilers in them and everyone's being very protective of Rob. and we appreciate that about you.

We appreciate it so much. You guys the best. We got an email that it was like, I don't think you read it because it said tiny movie spoiler for Rob in the headline or whatever. But I guess I can ask you this. Do you feel like we,

have we actually seen the Scottish malt carpet fiber? Isn't the whole idea of the Scottish malt carpet that like they don't know where it came from? It's there and it doesn't belong there.

So have we seen it anywhere? No. And that's why the whole, the prosecution's whole case is built around the idea that Carolyn was murdered in that room with an implement that was in that room and then left there and displayed there.

But this is why it's our critical email address, Joe. This is why people need to email us at Scottish malt carpet at gmail.com. You're brilliant, Rob. It was the smoking gun I knew from episode one somehow. You're brilliant. You're so smart. We got a really compelling email about this from a listener who thinks they have identified it.

Oh. They've identified where it came from in the story so far. That is all I can say about that. But when they sent me the screenshot, I was like, fascinating. I've got to admit, I've been focusing so much on just like, what is Peter Sarsgaard doing in this scene? You know, like, what am I supposed to read from these characters and their motivations? I personally have not been paying enough attention to every shade of carpet

in the background of all of these scenes and it was right there for me all along. It's time to get your shit together, Rob. Start looking at the carpet fibers. I'm not saying it is definitely the key, but I was really tickled by this email. So what else do you want to talk about before we go? That email, by the way, was from Jonathan.

From Germany. Thanks, Jonathan. Do we think the Brian Ratser stuff goes anywhere at all? It's odd to me that not only is he beaten to near death on Rusty's porch, but that he would then agree to speak to him after finding Rusty snooping around his house trying to break in his window. What was worse? Putting the bike in the car or going back there? Showing up at all is pretty bad, much less poking around and trying to get in through

the windows that are, windows that are barred shut. I don't know the answer because, again, I don't know. Like, I don't know what they're going to do with the ending of the show at all. But Marco Rodriguez, who plays Brian Ratser, is billed below Rosanna Arquette, who showed up for literally one scene. So I just really don't feel like he's the key to everything. And I feel like it's a way to keep the Liam Reynolds stuff in the conversation, like, to keep that plot line alive in a way that you, like, we can't just keep going back and talking to our Hannibal Lecter. You know what I mean? Like, there's, there has to be something on the outside for us to do.

So I feel like it was a way to keep that sort of. in the mix, but I don't think that's going anywhere. But again, David E. Kelly could absolutely surprise me. Who knows? We got a question from a listener who was asking, you already talked about the fact that you're going to watch the movie.

Yes. Or listener Alejandro wrote in to ask, is your plan to watch the movie before the finale, or is your plan to watch the finale, then watch the movie? I want to watch the finale first and then double back for the movie. Because otherwise, I feel like it would invalidate the whole point of trying to stay in a,

this whole time. That's right. Let's keep you presumed innocent. Okay. So that's the plan. And then we, so next week on the show, we're going to talk about episode seven. If all goes according to plan, we should have a guest on to talk about sort of larger swath of the season, which I think is going to be really interesting.

And then the finale, we'll be able to talk about the both finale and Rob's experience watching this Harrison Ford. And if you would like to watch with us, please do. Because I imagine we will be spoiling. the film if it's different in our finale episode. Yes, correct. And it is a really good film. But I mean, I like this plan

that you're going to watch it all the way through then watch the film. It's a fun challenge for me to try to keep you protected. You're doing very well, I have to say. You've been appropriately vague at every turn. You've been throwing out the red herrings. I appreciate you taking me down these paths

as we try to investigate this thing. Doing my best. I think one of the things that felt a little clunky to me is this idea of Lorraine being like, well, you're definitely not going back to the courtroom alone. And I'm like, that just felt like a reason to get her there so she could be there when he collapsed. Like that felt a little clunky to me. And Elizabeth Marvel, who again is Bill Camp's real life wife. Like I do like their interactions.

Like it's very natural and homie and lived in. Like I think they're at home conversations are great. But sometimes when she's like is interacting, it's more. like when she's interacting with the Barbara plot line that it feels like a little bit more which is like you go girl like you go having a fair it's great it feels like a little bit more force

to me but yeah anyone else you want to talk about Kumagai? Yeah maybe Kumagai a little bit just through the lens of Tommy Maltow almost as you know Kuma Guy's testimony and his time on the stand is there to drive home for us that Tommy

Moldo cannot help himself they have all the information that they need all he has to do is literally stop. Yeah. And he can't help but redirect. Yeah. And it opens up a window for Kumagai to basically paint himself in a corner as a completely biased witness against Rusty whose testimony cannot be trusted. A lot of, a lot of, you know, spiritual fuck you's happening throughout that whole exchange.

Yeah. And he keeps exposing himself in the way that Delaglio was concerned with in the first place as a liability to this case, as someone who really should not be prosecuting it. But has been put in this position as, I would imagine the appeal of having him in the spot is as a rabid dog who will stop at nothing to try to prosecute this case. Right. But he doesn't seem overly concerned with the truth

to the point that he basically threatens Eugenia's job. You know, like he's doing a lot of things behind the scenes that... He just said they value a loyalty. Of course. He's definitely didn't threateners. They're a family. They're a family there. They value of loyalty there.

Yeah. And I think there are interesting parallels drawn between Rusty and Tommy in terms of like they just can't help themselves. Well, he also wants to be Rusty so bad. Oh, God. Did you make out with him? Did you kiss him?

What a weirdo. And we do get the, you know, you mentioned the opening statement where Tommy is addressing the jury and explaining the presumption of innocence. And talking about his personal connection. Yeah, which I think, you know, it seems like might hang around his neck

over the course of this trial, like hammering that point home when we later get the revelation that Carolyn was, did not want to work with him and may in fact be scared of him seems like it could be a relevant point. But you also do get this contrast from the opening of the show where we see Rusty giving a very similar, his own version of that same speech to a jury

and the differences in their demeanor and how, I would say how easy it is for Rusty to be likable and how hard Tommy has to work to even attempt to be likable. And in some ways, you can see, you know, De LaGuardia and Rusty and people in the audience like kind of squirming a little bit at how hard he's trying to paint himself as a voice of reason and as, you know, a similar sympathetic ear in this trial. And a guy who has a personal connection to her and just sort of like trying to make that emotional bid. And you're just sort of like, ugh.

Yeah. Yeah, this is kind of Peter Starzger's show for me, honestly. Like, I just think he's really good. And he's always been really good at these kind of characters. He's stealing it from Jake a little bit. But, you know, Jake getting the, when Barbara finally tells Rusty about the fact that she made out with Hot Dr. PhD art bartender,

the first reaction before he flies off and starts grabbing her arm and being violent and scary is you get mute, dissociated, chuckling Jake. Very Donnie Darko-co-co-coded stuff for me. I was waiting for him to ask Barbara why she was in a stupid bunny suit. Yeah. We're really, we're playing the hits in a way that I appreciate. Yeah, I love that. If they had just stuck with that, that would have been like, I don't know, kind of perfect for me,

where it's just sort of like he's still an asshole. Yeah. But he's not like a rage monster, which he's then like. Less Rage Monsters, what I would like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, to circle back to Tommy Maltow and his cat dad status. Like, I think that is, I think it's interesting to wait until episode six to take us home with Tommy Maltow. We've been home with Ray.

We've been home with Rusty, like all that sort of stuff like that. For better, for worse, we know a little bit more about Carolyn Palimus and her ex-hus and her kid and all that sort of stuff like that. But this is like what is Tommy Maltos going home looks like. And it really does, I feel like it's a much more graceful peeling back the layers of the onion on a character than sort of the version that they've been doing with Rusty. Because it's definitely not in the, I don't know if it's in the books, definitely not in the original movie. But whoever was like Tommy Maltow, he's a cat dad. Definitely a cat guy. They like really crushed it.

And like, yeah, every choice. Someone emailed us about this and I felt certain we must have mentioned it. But in case we haven't, we are both very aware that Peter Sarsgaard and Jake Jillen Hall are brothers-in-law. And there's an added layer of something fun inside of that in case we never actually express that. We do know that to be true. And which also makes it feel inevitable that there will be a more direct head-to-head than them both agreeing that they don't want a plea deal, right? They're going to have to be on opposite sides of either those benches where Rusty is defending himself or Rusty is going to be on the stand at some point. over these last episodes.

Genuinely not based on anything I know, I can't imagine that they let Jake Gyllenhaal out of here without... Everyone has been like, it's such a bad idea to put him on the stand. Like, they have to put him on the stand, right? Of course they do. And apparently they're going to try to put Barbara up there too, which makes all of Rusty's behavior that much more psychotic.

Because even if you are a rage monster, you're at least a rage monster who's preoccupied with trying to prove your own innocence. And you can't do the one thing you need to do, which is not alienate your wrong. at the time where she is really the only voice who can stand up for your character? Rusty. Maybe last but not least.

Judge Little. Nomadim is Wani, who I think I pronounced her name close to correctly, who's a wonderful actress, played Hermione on the stage and has been in a ton of things and is just like wonderful.

It's sort of swinging below her capabilities in this, and it makes me wonder, like, is there more, like, she's giving me, giving us like fairly boilerplate judge character at this point, right? Watch yourself, counselor. Tread carefully. Tread lightly, tread lightly.

Both of you up here at the bench right now. Are you expecting or wanting more, like, you know, I don't know. I feel like this is like a casting call out to me that I want more for this character. Do any thoughts or feelings about that? I would love it. And certainly if Rusty's put in a position to defend himself, you could see the trial getting much messier overall where she has to play a more active role in it.

In my chambers? Where she says in my chamber. There's going to be a lot of chamber talk, a lot of huddling up. She's already made it clear that, you know, like she is not interested in hearing the Liam Reynolds conspiracy theory. And that's really all Rusty's got.

That's the one thing he's got in his bag. Rusty's just like wheeled his cork boarded. He's got the extra red string and the pushpins. And she's like, none of this. No, but did you see the pushpins? Did you see? Not in my courtroom. That was something I was curious about Tommy's procedure.

He's kind of going through all the video that Michael took on the night of at Carolyn's house, on a big monitor in front of the jury. And he's not letting any of them play. He's just kind of like cycling through the videos. Like he's fast-forwarding through them. It seems like you might want to let the jury see what's on those tapes in a murder trial. He wrote Kid on Bike, Question Mark, Question Mark, in the margin of one of his not pads. Did he not?

He did, but the bike has disappeared, so it'll clearly never come up again. And where could they possibly find it? How could it? If Rusty left that bike in his trunk, if they find it in his trunk, Joe, I'm going to be so mad. Like, if he takes his car to the car wash

and they're like, what is his bike doing here in the truck of this car? He's trying to unlock his car and he actually hits the trunk button and it pops open right in front of the cops and they're like, well, this is weird. You have a half-destroyed bike in here? That's been a...

talking about episodes 5 and 6 and 6 have presumed innocent and we'll be back for episode 7 and 8 Um, Rom-Honey. Separately, we should note. Seven and eight separately over the next two weeks. Seven next week, eight, the week after that,

then we have some other stuff that we're cooking up to get us through this slightly prestigious-less summer. Hey, quickly before we go, because we make the rules here on this feed. Yeah. We're not the people covering the bear, but do you have any the bear hot takes?

Do you want to get off? I've got so many takes about the bear. How much time do we have? Well, listen, we have not gone over time. So give me three hot bear takes before we go. One, time spent with a character does not count as character development. You can't just be spinning your tires for five episodes at a time and call it good. Two, the finale and the degree to which it was just an episode of Chef's Table smuggled inside

what was supposed to be a dramatic show. I found very upsetting. And I say that as someone who loves fine dining and loves food and loves talk about food. You're like one of the foodiest people I know. We got to fucking relax. Like, we got to chill with that episode. Three, I'm trying to think of what else is even.

What else even qualifies as a hot take? It feels like everyone is pretty down on this show. You liked ice chips, right? I did like ice chips. Is that a hot take to like ice chips? I don't know. I think people are, I really did not like that episode. Like, you and I have bizarrely opposite sort of takes on like,

I really liked napkins and you didn't, and you really liked ice chips, and I didn't. I walk a very fine line in my life between what is impressive and writerly and what is cringe-worthy and riderly. And I thought this season of the bear, especially some of the big speeches in it, felt a little cringy and riderly, and just untrue to the people's mouths that those words were coming out of.

And that bounced me out of the show a lot. I guess so here my tepa take, my warmed-up leftover takes. of the bear, which is that as a lot of heat lamp, it's still relatively fresh. As a lot of people have mentioned, they basically want to do three seasons and

they got stretched into four. So like how much of this is like sort of, you know, to connect it back to presumed innocent so Kai doesn't cut this out of this podcast like spinning wheels before we get to sort of the ultimate conclusion. I have a question about the use of the

FAC brothers who I really enjoy a moderation and did not enjoy it to the degree that they were used this season. A question I have is like, was FX tired of the like, this isn't a comedy allegations and decided to like put a lot of more comedy in there? I don't know.

Or just rearranging plot and we need to fill time. We got to stitch some of these scenes together. So let's just a fact filler. But like to your point about ice chips, I just have an issue with the, and I did last season the whole Jamie Lee Curtis performance, but why would it be the facts showing up at the end of

episode and not Carmi. Like, why is Garmy not there? Isn't this his show? And then that's... Scheduling.

Scheduling is the answer. Like, I.O. and Jerry Ellen, Wyatt and Evan and all of them being quite busy, I'm sure, is part of all of this. And the last of not least,

I will say, I loved the opening episode. I actually thought it was a masterpiece. Like, a lot of people thought that was pretentious. I didn't. And that is,

that is like, that episode is the one, argument, pro-bing argument for this season because you don't do an episode like that if you don't have a binge show. So, right? I don't think if you have one episode

of the bear to serve up to your audience that week, do you think it's that first episode that they did? It certainly wouldn't be the premiere of a show that's shown week to week. Maybe you could squeeze it in in the middle somewhere at a crisis point. You'll see that within dramatic arcs

sometimes, but I agree. It's the And it's the kind of thing that really only the bear can get away with. And I think what makes this season so frustrating for me is the things that works so well in that first episode, the kind of flashes of memory and the way all of these things are associated into Karmie psychology and all of the attendant plot lines. And it fits of a piece with the show so well. You can feel all of those elements getting teased apart over the course of the season. It's like, what if we tried something kind of similar here?

And what if we took this piece of that formula here? And it just worked less and less. every time for me, unfortunately. I was like the one thing that I like, the one similar moment that was like maybe one of my favorite character moments the whole season was when Marcus is at home and he like turns on

the machine that was like his mom machine just so he could hear the sound because it was like the sound of still being live and that was like a very, it was a holy silent, just sort of like character moment that I absolutely loved. Like the bear has that shit

working in spade still. It's still one of the best looking things on television. There's so much to like about it. And I think that's what makes me be a little bit more critical where I feel like this thing that I love so much has been twisted just enough to make it a little unrecognizable to me. Even for all of our complaints about the facts, I will watch Maddie Matheson cooking videos on YouTube all day long.

Yes, absolutely. I love Maddie Matheson. I love that character in previous seasons. It's just like it's a little too much of a thing we like and a little, maybe deployed in just the wrong way. Over fact, over seasoned. The dish was over seasoned. A composition issue, to be sure.

Provided that Kai has might cut all of that out of the podcast. This is talking about presumed innocent for most of the podcast and the bear for a little bit of the podcast. We'll be back next week to talk about episode seven. Scottish malt carpet at gmail.com. No spoilers for Rob. or if you're going to put them in there, put it in the subject line.

We so appreciate you. And since we're splitting up episode seven and eight into separate episodes, that means we need twice as many emails. We need the theory. We need the fodder. We need your thoughts. I need to know whether Ray would be smoking a vape.

I need to know what the people think about Carolyn Palimus using the word the ick. And if that is plausible for that character or not. Wildly implausible. I don't see it. That really bumps for me. She's out of the age racket. That's out of the age racket.

That's really, really bumped for me. Thank you so much for bringing that up. I'm ashamed of myself that I didn't mention it. Yeah, what do you think about Tommy Maltow Cat Dad? Give us all your theories. And like, what's fun for us, whatever I know or don't know, what's fun for us is we have no way of accessing episode 8 because they have not given us that screener.

So we don't, we won't have access to the finale. We can just go off on Theory Corner to a certain degree. Oh, yeah. So that'll be really fun. I'm thinking the murder weapon is the missing bike chain that broke off of Kyle's bike, you know? Okay, that's got to be the one. Let's do a whole section on this next week of all your leg. fun wildest theories.

Sounds good. Why don't you scrub back through the tape and look at every single carpet fiber to see if you can find one that is remotely Scottish involved? You got it. Thanks for the homework, Joe. I appreciate it.

You're welcome. And all your spare time. Listen, thanks to Kai Grady. Thanks to Justin Sales. We'll see you soon. Bye.