The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Presumed Innocent’ Season 1 Finale: Closing Arguments

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

Jo and Rob await the jury’s decision to recap the Season 1 finale of ‘Presumed Innocent.’ They open by discussing why the episode felt unsatisfying, the shocking revelation that [redacted] is the killer, and how the ending affects the season as a whole (8:39). Along the way, they talk about what they want out of Season 2 (16:45). Later, they compare the show’s conclusion to that of its cinematic and literary counterparts (24:19). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Get all your NFL and fantasy football needs at the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. Is it kind of lame? All your... Fantasy football needs. I need fantasy football. Have all your fantasy football and NFL and all other types of needs met at the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify? Yeah, that's it. Have needs? We got you at the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty,

limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale sign storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. We're here to talk about presumed innocent. We're so excited. It is just the two of us today. We had a bevy of people last week, but it's just Robin joining here today to talk to you about the presumed innocent finale. If you've not watched up through episode eight,

now is your chance to go do that. Before we get into literally anything else, Kai, can we hear the most important line from the presumedness in an alley? What if she never consumed the ringgoon? I hope that happens often today. I hope we can just throw to that anytime we really want to, Joe. Rob, you too have this power to throw to... It's incredibly generous of you.

Thank you. You're welcome. The great Tommy Maltow saying genuinely one of the funniest things that I've ever heard at television show. just cry of rangoon things of that nature we're having a good time on presumed innocent of course program notes this is the last of our presumed innocent coverage um coming up rob and i have uh if all goes garden plan maybe a couple uh pods where we're going to be sending some appreciation towards a show that we both really love uh which is the leftovers which is having an anniversary and we thought we would take an excuse to talk with leftovers anything you want to tease about that and you want to tease about that and you want to tease about that and you want to tease about that and you want to tease about that. Rob Mahoney. I feel like me teasing anything more would risk getting raptured between now and then,

so I'm gonna play on the side of caution and say, I'm very much looking forward to it. It's a show I adore and have great affection for, despite it's sometimes bleak subject matter, and I hope people can come along for the ride. I think the plan currently is for us to do a couple Hall of Fame episodes, and just to let people know, let's say you're listening to this, you're like,

I love listening to Rob and you want to talk absolute bullshit about television. Great, thanks so much for joining us. I've never seen the leftovers. Okay, what a great opportunity for you to watch the leftovers. Great news. Let us bring you along into this incredible world that will also make you very sad. Let's just say that season one is a tough hang.

Yeah, okay, yeah. And we will not be Hall of Fame any episodes from season one. We're going to, Hall of Fame, two episodes is sort of the plan right now. Definitely one from season two. We have our eye on a pretty popular one. And then probably one from the final season, but not the finale itself, because Andy Greenwell did a great job covering that on the Stick the Landing series that he did earlier this year. So something from season two, something from season three.

Here's the tip for me to you, because I will never rewatch season one of the leftovers. No? You don't want to plunge to the bottom of a pool screaming? You don't want a lot of mysterious subplots involving dogs? Life is too tough for me to spend time with season one of the leftovers again. So here would be my recommendation and you're going to hear a bunch of purists like scream into their listening devices right now find a YouTube recap

of season one and then dive right into season two. And then season two and three are masterpieces. So that would be my recommendation. But if you want a purist and you want to watch the whole thing, I support you in that as well. So that's what we have coming up. But we are on the lookout for like another show to cover

Week to read. So Rob which email would you like to send people to to solicit suggestions for a show, upcoming show we should cover week to week on the prestige feed. There are so many great email options, but just for consistency, I think we should send them to Scottish maltcarpet at gmail.com

or tweet at us, get at us, however you would like, blow up all of Joe's various DMs. I think all of those are valid strategies, but please let us know shows you're excited about because we're trying to find something to be excited about. Yes. So hopefully in the next week we'll zero it on thing And then we'll be back to our usual week to week coverage

Getting completely spun out on mysteries Or deep diving into color theory or whatever it is We decide we want to do On a Presti's show The one parameter I would say If you're wanting to engage with us on this potential hunt It's preferable if the show is released week to week Binge drop is not really the vibe here

So yeah Scottish Malt carpet at gmail.com, Scottishmelt carpet, a very important part of this whole show. Or, yeah, as we know. Did they just drop it and it never mattered again? Who's to say? I really thought it was going to matter.

I really thought the moving of the body was going to matter. Turns out it does not. I was with you on this. Okay. Here's the spoiler warning. We're going to spoil up through episode 8 of, and by spoil, I mean discuss a television show. We all just watched together.

So up through the finale of season 1 of presumed innocent, we're going to spend a little bit of the show just talking about the show in the finale, but Rob has seen the 1990 Harrison Ford film. And I did a little bit of skimming is, I think, the only word I'm willing to commit to of the book. I would not claim to have read it. I skimmed it, and I certainly spent some time with the ending of it. So we'll be talking about those things in context a little bit later on, but if you were like,

I don't want that, why wouldn't you? But if you don't, we're going to talk about the show itself first a little bit. Before we get into all of that, Rob Mahoney, would you like to address

the scores of Medium Plus emails that we received from our lovely listeners? I very much would. Thank you very much, Joe. You're welcome. First of all, we appreciate you, dear listeners,

educating us into the world of Medium Plus. Yeah. Great passion. And great passion, I would say mostly about here's this thing my very fussy friend does that we all make fun of,

order their stakes medium plus. It sounds like for the restaurant world, this is a nightmare. The level of precision required to hit not just medium or medium rare but medium plus specifically. To which I say, if you are out there ordering medium plus stakes,

one, you're an animal. If you're ordering above a medium steak, you need to reconsider your life choices. And I'm happy to take you to whatever seminars need to be taken. I'm happy to really get with you on this, to really get our brightest minds together to get

you all set on what kind of steak you should be ordering. But also, you probably shouldn't be so fussy about your steak as to order between gradations. That's all I have to say on the subject. I regret the error that apparently this is a capital T thing, as people

were right to point out to us. I, a Texas-born steakhouse-loving person, have literally never heard anyone do this, but maybe I have less fussy friends than our listeners do. That was a perfect recap because here's what I wrote in my notes. People who worked in stakeholders and self-aware queens acknowledge that this is a very fussy order. I think an automatic refire is what someone told us in one of the emails.

Some other people called us uncultured swine thereabouts. They did. And those are the kind of people, I suppose, who order medium plus stakes and steakhouses. Anyway, it is a thing. Yeah, we really got class checked on one of these emails in particular. And I have to say, I don't appreciate it. It was tough for us. While we're here on Meat Corner,

one of our listeners did email us about the finale, and they were like, was Rusty serving his family raw meat? And they came up with this whole theory about specific ethnic cuisine and stuff like that. I actually believe, yes, Rusty was handling raw meat in this episode and handed it to his son. He's like, can you take this outside? I believe they were going to put it on the grill. We've seen Rusty grilling. He was just like prepping the meat for the grilling process.

So that is the. the case of the raw meat. There are lots of ways to eat raw beef as whole, like, New York strip steaks. That's not one of the ways that you do it. That's not how I would do it. I wouldn't recommend it. A lot of chew. We might get other emails calling us uncultured swine.

You know what? If other people are out there eating whole New York strips raw, I'm going to argue that they, in fact, are the uncultured swine. Okay, great. So let's get into the ending. Without any movie context, Rob Mahoney, how did the ending work for you? And how does it went down, like impact how you enjoyed the entire series as a whole?

Let me tell you, Joe, I sure was surprised. Yeah. I sure was. Yeah. I do not think this ending works. I don't think it paid off. I think it's, I'll give it credit in this way. Like, as soon as I watched it, my first instinct was, man, I really want to go back and rewatch all of the Jaden scenes.

Like, I really want to re-contextualize what we know about that character with the knowledge of where she ends. up and where the story ends up. Having done that, I don't know that it adds a lot to the process of figuring out who the killer is. And it's one of these endings where, yes, it's certainly surprising. I'm going to guess that not a lot of our listeners and the people watching the show are going to anticipate this particular ending. But there's a reason for that.

And it's that there's not a lot of plot reason to expect that she's the killer. I don't think there's sufficient clues to expect that she's the killer. And most importantly, I don't think there is a compelling narrative reason. to throw this up on the board and say, what makes Jaden being the killer interesting? And I don't know what the answer to that is. I think to pull off a really successful gotcha moment in something like this, you have to, like, it happens and then you go, oh, yeah, like, for sure.

Maybe I didn't see it coming. Maybe you got me in like a shock way, but like it makes sense. I guess an example, I'm going to spoil a older movie, but I think a perfect movie. I can't remember. We've talked about it. I can't remember who it's in the context of this show. But here incoming are Gosford Park spoilers.

A perfect movie. A perfect movie. Gosford Park, a perfect movie, ends with like quasi-multa killers, sort of similar-ish to the way that this ends. But Helen Mirren reveals essentially that she is like the capital K killer in that movie. And you're like, yeah, correct. And as she's monologuing about that.

it, you're like, yep, uh-huh, correct. And, uh, but I never, there are a million different suspects in that movie, never saw that one coming. And then once you, once it happens, you're like, everything just falls into place. And thematically, to your point, thematically, uh, it makes so much sense in terms of, like, the relationship in that movie, particularly the relationship between, like, the ruling class and the servants and the invisibility of the servants and all the sorts of stuff like that.

Like, thematically, it's so satisfying. Here, thematically unsatisfying to me, other than the fact that it feeds into the established, presumed innocent narrative of sort of like, what is justice? I mean, this is a similar thing, again, that happens in Gosford Park. Like, what purpose would it possibly serve to expose this person,

you know, for Jaden to come to justice? Will that do any good? Or what is the nature of, justice or like, you know, do we have to go back to Tommy Maltow's like terrible, hilarious speech on the steps of the, of the courthouse where he's talking about what justice in this country. This country. Nay, this country. But like Tommy Maltow would be tearing out his hair if you found out.

Rusty is covering first or he thinks Barbara then that's the turn of that for Jane. I will say that that part of it I like. I very much like the idea that Rusty did not murder Carolyn but believes Barbara did so much. that he returns to string up Carolyn's body and pose it and misdirect the police. And, like, him being involved in some capacity and believing that Barbara is the one who killed Carolyn explains some of his erratic behavior throughout the seas. And even his dodginess, for example, asking, like answering Maya's questions as to what he was doing that night and where he was and when. You get a sense of, okay, this is why this character was pointing them towards Bunny's case at every opportunity, right?

You understand Rusty more clearly. Yes. Does adding the extra switch to it being jaded and not Barbara, does that make anything better, anything more interesting, anything more complex? I can't say that it really does. I'll tell you the main thing that was going through my mind when Jane walked into that garage to me like, was that. I mean, the only thing, the whole thing feels like pretty slap dashed to me.

The only thing that feels like it has connective tissue to earlier is that, disassociation conversation that she and Rusty had. Like, that's the only thing that sort of makes it feel like they planted any kind of seed that we were headed here. Yeah, but even that one felt like, hey, do you think you can dissociate and murder someone just asking for a friend so I can excuse the fact that my behavior is completely inconsistent with that throughout the season? Yeah.

No, I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that's like literally the only thing I could come up with. And other than that, it's just like, I'm at a lot. as to why this feels like a good conclusion. Yeah. What I was thinking about, though, was something you and I sat on the pot a couple weeks ago. Kai, will you please play this clip?

Do you think Jaden's going to wind up, his daughter is going to wind up having been in the bushes across the street? I think she's in the house. How many kids? The call is coming from inside the house. She is the fire poker. Really, the fire poker is more of a metaphor when you think about it. We are the fire poker,

but Jaden is in the house somewhere for sure watching this, because we have several episodes left and limited suspects to point the finger at, so she must be involved in some capacity. Joe, I gotta say we fucking nailed it. I mean, I feel like she metaphorically is the fire poker. She is. Yeah, hilarious.

Genuinely, like, you and I both were like, did we joke that Jane was the fire poker a couple week on the podcast? To be clear, we were completely unsirious when we said that. Yeah. Well, it's an unsirious ending, frankly. That is where we landed, that there were like 900 people circling Carolyn

Palemus's house that night, including three children. So the other thing I want to say before, we're getting into sort of compare and contrast, because I think there's a lot of interesting things to say on the compare and contrast front. This episode is a whole, not just the final moment, was feeling pretty weak to me. I thought, once again, Tommy Maltow is the most interesting character to me in all of this. Tommy's closing argument, I thought was great. Frustratingly, I thought Rusty's wasn't. What was irritating to me about that is I felt like the music cues

and everyone's reaction was trying to tell me it was great. And I wasn't feeling it. How did you feel about that? I was very curious as to how we were actually supposed to feel about Rusty's closing remarks versus Tommy's within the context of this show. Because my instinct, just listening to them and watching those performances, is Tommy kind of ate his lunch. That's how it felt to me.

And maybe that's what we're supposed to feel is that Rusty makes a plea that is not perfect, is kind of rushed and harried and all over the place and rambling sometimes, but he hit some emotional beats that maybe lodge enough reasonable doubt within the juror's minds to ultimately make him innocent. And despite the fact that Tommy tries a good case and makes this great closing statement, it's just not enough. Like, I think that's probably where we're supposed to met out. But if we're supposed to like see this rusty closing argument as some great triumph. I can't say I saw it or heard that. I had a real issue with it. I had no issue with how much real estate Tommy Malto's cat took up in this. Absolutely not. Raving like you have a cat.

Top 10 moment. Tomi Motto's cat like scrambling to like remove itself from his embrace when he's like sitting in the chair later. 10 out 10. 10. No notes. Really great stuff. Before we get into, actually I have one more question I want to ask you before we get into this compare and contrast section. Knowing what we know now about how this all ends, what do you want for Presumed Innocent Season 2? Not these characters. If it is the continued killings of Jaden Savage, I'm not interested in that. If it's Jaden, the one family member who's not in therapy finally going to therapy, I'm not interested in that. Sorry, Lily Ridge. I want Lily Rape to eat

both the actor and the character who needs clients, but maybe not that many clients. So I don't want to take anything off of her plate. I just, I don't want to continue this thread. If it had been, honestly,

if it had been a combination of Rusty and Barbara, perpetrating the killing and ex-hearing- and the cover-up, I like that ending. And I would be interested in seeing the next days of those characters and them dealing with the, the aftermath of that beyond the legal context.

We do get this sort of happily ever after montage of everyone kind of turning the page and learning to move on. And as we learn in these episodes, like everyone has secrets, right? Like bearing those deeper and deeper as they try to get closer and closer to their normal lives, I would enjoy watching the version of that where it's this married couple dealing with the aftermath and the after effects of all these things. But if it's just them swallowing down the fact that their daughter is a dissociative, killer. I hope we move on to some of their legal proceedings, if that's the case.

I do not want anything else to do with the savages. I think they should, for legal and personal reasons, move out of Kendall County. Honestly, a non-extradition country is probably a great bet this time of year. To the surprise of no one, I do want more Tommy Malta. Like, I would not mind Tommy, Nico de LaGuardia. Yes. I would not mind, you know, getting Sandy's Stern, a character that we, like, we're about to talk about because he's a big part of the movie, cut out of the show, but gets a mention in the show,

and is central to one of the spinoff novels that Scott Turrow wrote. Oh, interesting. So bring Sandy Stern in and make him the main character, and then, like, is orbited by your Tommy Maltos, your Nico Deliguardias, this judge that we met, like, all this, you know, all this

sort of stuff, the various investigators. Like, yeah, I like that idea. and I fear that because Jake is the like star pole and is an EP on the project like I fear we are going to be with the savages and I would really prefer we not be. I would really prefer to like something that you and Bill were bringing up this idea of like,

okay, let's say Sandy Stern is the main character of season two. Get another huge star to do that. Apple is of course cutting costs at the moment But, you know, if they cut a bunch of other costs and funnel their money into that. I don't know. I'm just with you. I like, this dynamic of we know who did it, but they have not turned themselves in. And we might spend all of season two with everyone grappling with their guilt and fear and mistrust around that is exactly what happened on Big Little Lies season two and was terrible.

So, like, why I don't, please don't repeat that mistake. of anyone working on this project. Well, especially when there's some DNA in this finale for a sort of soft launch spin-off with Nico and Tommy, right? They have this conversation at the end about, like, you just got to put this case away. We've got to move on to the next thing.

Chicago's a big city with lots of people to try. Why wouldn't we get the continued adventures of their legal pursuits, of them moving on to the next case? And to the Tommy point of this, his emotional arc and payoffs in this episode, I think are where it hits the hardest and works the best. We feel his deep disappointment and regret over losing this case as vividly as anything

in this episode. That is a character who wants something. Even though Rusty didn't actually kill Carolyn, Tommy believed it so fully and completely that, like, Sarsgaard playing how gutted he is when the verdict comes, I believe. And I believe the emotional truth. I believe the emotional hangover of that character having to get over it, both the fact that he clearly did have something for Carolyn, and he did have a lot of resentment for Rusty,

and also he went hard as hell at this case and didn't get it. And this is a character who was, I would say, pretty openly contemptible early in the season, and I found myself kind of rooting for him in this finale. I made this comp on Twitter. I really do. She's on me, sorry, but like, and I can't remember. I don't think I had brought up early on this season,

though it is so obvious, I'm surprised I didn't talk about it earlier, but what Sarah's doing here is the Salieri character from Amadea, is this guy who you don't really like at all, F. Marie Abraham's character, an Oscar-winning turn as Salieri in this film about Mozart, Salieri being a competing composer

who resents Mozart's golden boy success. And you're like, I don't like Salieri. He is like a sour, uncharismatic, like all this sort of stuff, guy. But his resentment, his jealousy is so human and so relatable that you're just sort of swept up in his story anyway. And I think he like, Tommy Maltow, especially like in his closing arguments, all this sort of like, this personal resentment of which we've been seeing throughout of like Rusty Savage's golden boy, person, it's so easy for Rusty. Like everything comes so easily for him

and he can't, he can get away with a lot of things and he can't get away with murder. God damn it. And just because he's wrong, kind of, because Rusty did, I guess, tie her up. You know, doesn't mean that emotion is wrong or unrelatable. It's so relatable. And I love to.

Completely. Yeah. The quote I had written down is when Tommy's kind of processing all this and he says, he beat me. I let her. down, her death will go unavenged because I wasn't good enough. And that sentiment is

really, really powerful in a show like this, that it can be pulpy and can be silly. And like, we're taking our shots at the ending because I think it is a little silly. But ultimately, there's a lot of human stuff here. Like, there's a lot of human stuff in Barbara. There's a lot of human stuff in Rusty and in Ray.

And clearly in Tommy, who just like, stealthily became the powerhouse of this show. Kai, can we hear that crab-ranking quote again, please? What if she never consumed the rangoon? And he's worried about the right things. He's worried about the rangoons and when they were consumed and if they were consumed or not. Oh, my God.

It's so funny because when we were getting that testimony, I was like, it was like my first watch through the finale. So I was like, I was doing something while I was watching it. And in my head I was sort of muttering. I was like, how do you know when she ate that? Like, how do you know that she even ate that? Chinese food. Like, what are you, what are you even talking about here? And then Tommy said exactly that I was thinking, but in the, like, gooniest way possible. The rangooniest way possible.

He's just like... Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zetbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if

Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop, Zepbound, and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with

anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low. blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit setbound.lily.com. Now we're going to talk about the film and the book all in context together. This is actually a great pivot point because one of the great reveals for me in watching the movie for the first time is that Tommy Moldo is barely a character in the movie. He is a plot device in the movie. He's a plot device

in the movie. And so to go from that, obviously there's a lot of adaptive changes in expanding this thing for TV, but that was one of the most pleasant surprises is, oh, this guy is barely a thread of something. And if anything, like a very mustache twirling, like, cartoony, just

trying to get the protagonist's sort of side character. Yeah, like really two-dimensional. And I think I sort of said that earlier and then I kind of started let me tell you, walking the spoiler line has been very... I was like afraid that literally anything I said could have tipped you or Kai or any of our listeners off in one direction or another. So, like, this has been

a real interesting challenge for me. Joe, you've been a complete champion. And I want to say also our listeners and everyone on the internet has somehow been a complete champion about this. I'm extremely impressed. Thank you for not spoiling us. We got all the way to the finish line somehow with me and Kai both being unspoiled on this thing. I think I started early saying something about this because Nico Delaguardia and Tommy Moldo are both pretty two-dimensional nothing characters in the movie. And I think I said something on that front. And then it became clear pretty early on that they were like trying to build up Tommy

Maltow as a potential suspect. And I felt like I couldn't talk about that anymore because I didn't want to be like, well, he's a nothing character in the movie. And then you'd be like, well, clearly he didn't do it. So I was like, let's not talk about that anymore. But yes, I mean, so I wrote down three major character, four major character changes. Yes. Five, if you count, Barbara, that I think are really interesting between the movie and the show.

So let me, let's just lay this on the table. what's the ending in the movie? What's the ending in the book? What's the ending in the versus what's the ending in the show? In the movie, the ending that I think most people who are familiar with the ending of the story are familiar with. Rusty, at the end of all things, the case is dismissed. At the end of all things, pulls out a tool from the bottom of the toolbox that still has like blood and hair on it. And at one point, and so for a minute, you're like, did he do this? Holy shit? And neglect to watch the murder weapon and just stash, stash, at home. And then his wife, Barbara, comes home and it becomes clear that Barbara is played by Bonnie Bedelia did a murder. She has a lengthy monologue about why she did the murder in the kitchen, which is like a pretty famous, like in its time, a pretty famous scene of her like confession scene in the kitchen of her having done it. And I think in that era of like pre-law and order franchises, pre-us being like much more familiar with like, any twist and turn that a murder case might take.

This was like a big, and like the idea like, a woman killer. Like this was just like a big, felt like a big moment that is harder to land, I would say, in 2024. So that's how it happens in the movie. We had a listener right in earlier this season asking, wondering if they're going to do the book version, which is only slightly different in that. Yes, Barbara still did it. Yes, for the same reasons.

And in both cases, I think the idea. is like, was she trying to frame him and then changed her mind about framing him? Or, you know, it's unclear. Barbara is mentally unwell. It's this whole thing. The movie version, I would say, it's hard to ascribe like a ton of motive.

It's played in that moment, in that reveal, as more, oh, this woman went crazy. Yeah, it's not great. There's a lot of interesting gender politics that we should dive into about this movie. Oh, I'm so sad. Carolyn Pleeva's dead. She was a really hot broad and also an okay lawyer.

A lot of broad talk. John Spencer plays basically like the Rigo equivalent in the movie. And his role, again, to spoil this movie is he does believe that Rusty did kill her, but conceals evidence because basically she was a tough hang. That's his stance on the subject. She was bad news. She was bad news, Joe. She deserved to die.

She had to go. She had to go. She was bad news. I want to get to Carol in a second because I think that's bad news. that's another really important character difference. But the book ending is only slightly different in that. Rusty doesn't figure it out at the end. He figures it out at an amorphous time earlier in the book.

Weas readers are not privy to that. But he basically reveals, in this scene that's actually very cool and cold, and I'm sad we've never gotten on screen, he takes this piece of evidence, this blast, that in the movie, John, they throw into the lake, essentially. he has it. It's got his fingerprints on it. I don't know.

Unclear. He's just coolly washing it in the kitchen while he's telling her what he knows. And he's just washing the evidence of his DNA or her DNA or whatever. And he's just basically like, she was going to leave him. And he's like, oh, baby, you don't get to leave me. I know that you did this. I've known. And I've been covering for you.

And so one of our listeners ran it a couple weeks ago, maybe being like, maybe they're doing the book ending. And that listener wrote in after the scene that you and I both had a really strong response to which was Rusty, like, freaking out about Cliff the bartender. Yes. And if you rewatch that scene, knowing that Rusty thinks that she did this

and he is doing all of this to cover for her, that scene makes a bit more emotional sense because he's like, I'm, you're grinding me. I am grinding and grinding and grinding. For sure. Trying to save you and you're fucking fucking hot bartender guy right now?

Like that's what's happening? And I'll say the fact that it wasn't Barbara gives that scene, I think, some added emotional juice, right? It's like Barbara is oblivious to what he's doing. He is going to great lengths to execute this cover-up and deception and lying to basically everyone he needs to lie to.

Those kinds of scenes work really well in retrospect with it not being Barbara. I just don't know that, again, it being Jaden is really where we should have ended up, but I would have loved some alternatives. I'm totally fine with them changing the ending. I do think the book ending itself sounds pretty satisfying. And this sort of double manipulation,

like twisty, kind of fucked up, almost like gone girly kind of ending of like, oh, we're in this together now. Like I know what you did. You know what I did. It's completely messed up, but like we have found some common ground here. Like that's an interesting place to land a story like this.

Yeah, and I'm really trying to divorce my need to be right about them sticking to the original ending from how I actually feel about the ending because I don't want to like, I was insisting all season that they were going to do the original ending and then they didn't and I don't want my reaction to be like, well, I was wrong. So it's bad. I don't think that's the case. I think there was a way to do it that like didn't make me feel the way that I feel at the end of this finale. But there was, I will say that there was a lot of stuff that I was more tolerant of early this season because I assumed. they felt like they had to have it. Like something I mentioned, we were talking about Cliff the Bartender, and I was like a little easy on that plot line, which was kind of stupid sometimes, because I felt like they needed to keep Barbara front and center in the plot over the course of eight episodes versus Bonnie Bodilea just sort of like wandering in and out over the course of a two-hour movie. They needed Barbara to have a story that was constantly going on, so you're constantly thinking about what's Barbara state of mind.

So I was like, yeah, Cliff the Bartender is kind of silly, but like they need, they need they need me to constantly be looking at Barbara and thinking about Barbara so when the reveal comes at the end I'm not like, well, what? You know, like that is something that I retroactively works less well for me, now knowing the ending that they landed on. You know what I mean?

Yeah, the movie is weird in that way because like, even though the twist is sort of interesting that it ends up being Barbara, her role in that movie is very much like doting wife of a high school football coach. It honestly feels like Connie Britton and Friday Night Lights the movie versus Connie Britton and Friday Night Lights the show in terms of they're trying to expand this from a cheerleader on the sidelines

who in the case of the movie also happens to be the killer into an actual character but they didn't quite get there. They didn't quite be fit out of enough. The things they give her to do, I don't think, quite substantiate Barbara in the way that we would like. And that's, I will say, despite Ruth Nega's best efforts because I think that performance is awesome.

And I love a lot about it. I love a lot of the circumstantial, like some of the situations she's put into and the dynamic she's put into, I think, really work. But the friendly neighborhood bartender, we should say, as he's a name-checked in this finale, ultimately didn't quite get there. Sick move from Maya, by the way. Shout up to Maya. Just show him back up.

Yeah. Back on the job, inexplicably. Being extremely good at her job. Yeah, but we don't even need to mention the fact that she's back or why or, you know, don't worry about it. to do here. The other thing that made me so confident that they were doing the original ending was her reaction to her son having been there in the way that she, like, was scrubbing the bicycle.

Because it all works the way that it plays out in the end, which is like, this is a woman who is scared for her son, who says this thing to her husband about, like, sometimes I think you forget our children are black. Like, all of that still really works. but her like Lady Macbeth-esque out-out-dam spot like sort of scrubbing at the bike like holy shit did I do a murder and now my son is going to be

like it's one thing for my like shitty husband to maybe like be in the crosshairs here but as my son it turns out by the way Jaden is an incredible spot cleaner did a little scrub in the car and outwitted murder police buried the poker like two inches deep

and it was fine. Yeah, just don't even worry about it. Nobody was concerned with the freshly dug hole apparently in the backyard. Lied her face off to everybody. The narrow, long, poker, fire poker, shaked hole in the backyard. One thing that I said early in the season,

I was like, there was a moment where I was like, oh, no, I'm sure they're doing it. Yeah, what was it? The moment I felt the least sure is when Greg Yattain has called it an Easter egg for movie fans in our interview last week. Shout out to Greg.

by the way, also playing with a very straight face as I was like, yeah, we're spending a lot of time with Barbara this week. Isn't that notable? Well, every time you were like, wow, I really love that they're fleshing out this white character who could just be like so two-dimensional. I was like, yeah.

She might be the murderer, dog. They are. No, but when Rusty, when there's like a light out on the front porch and Rusty goes into the garage and is like digging around in tools, and I was like, oh, here, like, not that he was going to find a murder weapon there,

but just sort of like, they're previewing for us, that there are tools in the garage that Rusty is going to, like, dig around in. And probably if we rewatch, since Greg said there was an Easter egg in that scene, probably rewatch it. On that pegboard is probably that very, it's a very odd tool. It's not just a hammer. It's like a hammer slash crowbar slash something else. This is when we expose how not handy we are,

the exact naming of this particular tool. Well, in the book, it's this, like, special tool that Barbara's brother made for them that's like a special Franken tool that doesn't, like, really exist. So, but yeah, maybe it's a real tool that actually does exist, the one that they use in the movie. I will say, so in the movie, you don't see any of the tools or see Rusty go down into, like, their basement until the very end of the movie. Yeah. It's just kind of attached on as he's, like, getting back to his normal life.

after, we should say, one of the biggest changes from the movie to the show is in the movie, the case is straight up thrown out. Like, there is no defense in the movie. Because the judge is corrupt. Okay, but this gets into our whole characterization of Carolyn. Let's get to this in a second. There's a lot to unpack there with Carolyn and Judge Little. The one thing I want to point out is that because we spend so much more time, like,

in the shed at the Savage House in the show, which I think is a good idea. Yes. And in a post-movie world, a good way to, if not, nod at the people have seen the movie, hint at the fact that, like, hey, we know you see the murder weapon back here from the movie. And also among them, shout out to Sasha Ashah, who pointed this out to me, one of our producers here at the ringer, a fucking scythe on the wall? There's just a full-on sithe mounted up there. It's like, what kind of drug work are you doing in suburban Chicago that requires a sice? Sometimes you got to reap your backyard, you know. know what I mean?

Well, we're really reaping what we sewed covering the show week to week mystery-wise. Oh, my God. I love that Sasha was on pegboard watch. This is the last thing I'll say about sort of the ending differences. Yeah. I find rewatching presumed innocent, there's a lot of like sexual and racial politics that feel very 1990. There's a lot of stuff that feels very like I've seen too many episodes of law in order

to be like, you know, shock and odd by this. But I do really love the ending of the movie, the very ending of the movie. This is a movie that is directed by Alan Pacula, who is an incredible director. It's got a great John Williams score, like a sneaky great John Williams score on the movie. That twinkling piano, let's go. It's really good. It's a book ended by the shot of an empty jury box. You're just looking at the chairs in the jury box, and you're hearing Harrison Ford as Rusty Savage,

sort of narrating similar to how he does in the book, sort of like what his job is or whatever. And this is how it ends. He goes, I'm a prosecutor. I have spent my life in the assignment of blame. With all deliberation and intent, I reached for Carolyn. I cannot pretend it was an accident. I reached for Carolyn and set off that insane mix of rage and lunacy that led one human being to kill another.

There was a crime. There was a victim. And there is punishment. I think how sick that final stretch of that, there was a crime, there was a victim, and there is punishment. makes up for a lot of the other sort of crusty corners of this movie. Because it's just sort of like, you're just meant to sit there with this idea, with his idea of rusty for the rest of his life, knowing that he has betrayed sort of his life's pursuit in order to cover for this person

or pervert justice or whatever it is. And it's like, I think that works. Here's what works less well. Here's what fascinating about Carolyn Palemus in the movie versus a TV show. In the movie, she is ambitious, grasping, corrupt. Yes. Obviously, is sleeping with various people, including Ray, played by Brian Denahey. Maybe also Judge Little?

And probably also Judge Little. It's suggested she's basically sleeping with every character in the movie. And running, like, you know, corrupt, like kickback schemes and all the sort of stuff like that. So when we started the show and there was this. different version of Carolyn. I was interested because I was like, that feels a little like a shitty stereotype of like this sort of grasping woman and I'm interested in a more nuanced version. But at the end of the day, actually, I feel like I understand Carolyn Palimus is like a fully fledged character in the movie. Then I do at the end of the day, she still remains pretty

much like a manic pixie cipher, flashback, murder victor dream girl in the in the show. At the end, of all things. What do you think about those two Carolyn's that we get? I agree with you that it's less articulated. I think this is consistent with a lot of the things between the movie and the show in a way where, yeah, it's a little more on the nose, but because of that, you do have a better sense of who Carolyn is in the movie. That doesn't bother me so much because I like, for example, the contrast in her aspirations, for example, you mentioned in the movie, she is overtly a manipulator and a climber and she knows what she wants and how to play people and she is portrayed that way. The fact that we don't exactly know

what she wanted from Rusty in the show is something I like. I like that it's fuzzier around the edges of was this self-serving for her career? Was it a passionate thing that kind of fizzled out? Was it both? I like that we almost don't get the answers to questions like that with her, especially because she's not going to be a character who's really speaking for herself. And so if you're not going to go out of your way to do whole flashback episodes or like spend a lot of time with Carolyn, then I do prefer the ambiguity of not exactly knowing who she is and what she wanted. I don't know that I agree, but now this opens up a possibility for me of like a Twin Peaks Fire Walk With Me version of a prequel with Carolyn.

Let's go. Why not? Giving us the full Laura Palmer background. I love that. Sandy Stern. This is a character. So this is the defense attorney that in the film and in the book, Rusty, because Ray, his boss is not his best friend and and actually, like, throws him under the bus.

It's a much meaner world of Chicago Law and Order in the movie. But Ray's not supporting him at all. Ray, like, ditches and, you know, positions blame at Rusty. Testifies against him. Testifies against him. Lies and testifies against him. Yes. Rusty is wisely not defending himself.

And so he hires Sandy Stern, is played by Royal Julia, who is a legal assistant, is played by Brown. very young Bradley Whitford, who's just like there for half the movies. Fetching coffees, reading paperwork. Exploring the crime scene, looking for missing diaphragms, etc., etc. And Raul Joliet is so good in this movie. He devours the movie. He just, like, he comes in halfway through, and just the whole movie lights up because he's here.

That's a reason why some people who know the movie were like, I understand you, we were talking about this like narratively like rusty wanting to defend himself is sort of like an interesting messy sort of legal thriller thing to do combining the ray character and the sandy stern character is sort of that conservation of character idea that we come across a lot on TV shows but as much as as I love Bill Camp I mean he's saddled with like this terrible health scare plot line and then he's just like not able to do quite what the Sandy Stern in the film what ral julia gets to do which is this show is

the case is decided on like impassioned closing like it's Tommy versus Rusty impassioned opening closing cross like arguments sort of stuff. The movie is like

legal swashbuckling and trickery and like exposing corruption elsewhere with the judge with Tommy and Nico potentially like all sorts of like that that we get to watch Sandy do so it's a little bit

more, I don't know, energized, what do you think about that? Yeah, I think in the movie there's a lot more suggestion as to why the case might be dropped. If we imply just enough about the fact that the judge to Judge Little is also involved in this corrupt scheme, like, there's

enough going on around the edges that you don't have to give hard answers to some of the questions that lead to some of that ambiguity that we like. And honestly, that I think Harrison Ford, he's also very dodgy in the movie. Like his portrayal of Rusty is also incredibly dodgy

and he straight up does not answer questions in the similar way that Jake's Rusty does, he's just less antagonistic and emotional and reactive and angry about it. And has to sustain it over less minutes of airtime. He only has to do that balancing act for two hours versus eight episodes.

You don't get any triumphant moments for Ray Horgan in the way that you do for Sandy Stern in the movie. If anything, Ray, doesn't come off as being an amazing trial attorney. Clearly a great legal mind gives good advice to Rusty throughout about what he should or shouldn't do, but it's just kind of going through very procedural,

like very matter of fact, doesn't have an opportunity to give the big speeches or the big cross in particular because Rusty does instead. So I get some of the character swapping there as far as why that's not happening. But what you miss is Rao Julia, as Sandy Stern, completely eviscerating, Kuma Guy in the movie.

So good. In a way that going back in retrospect, the whole coach up scene in the show where they're putting Kuma Guy on the stand in a practice capacity and there's some line about how as a witness he's known to shit the bed, I really like in retrospect and really enjoyed because

oh my God, the violence in that scene and the entrails of Kuma guy that are left up on the stand after the Sandy's turn rips him apart for basically confusing victims across cases. and fucking the whole case is amazing to watch. And we don't really get anything quite like that

other than I would say Tommy Maltow going to work on a food scientist and crab Rangoon. What if she never consumed the Rangoon? I think that, and what's so good about that scene with Kuma Guy is that like there's a way in which I think, I have to rewatch it. Well, I won't, but like I should rewatch it. Because Barbara planted, like, fluid from her own diaphragm. on to Carolyn Palinas. So for Kuma Guy to be like

there was fluid consistent with someone who wears a diaphragm on the body, I actually think he's right. He was right. He's kind of right. He's just like, the fact that she had her tubes had anyway, it's just like,

also Barbara, you absolutely cuckoo bananas person in your placement of, you're like, you know what I'm going to need some stuff for my diaphragm for this? Let me get this diaphragm liquid cooked up and frozen.

Gross. Okay. There's a couple other opportunities. The pregnancy plot line is not a thing that's in the movie. Yeah. I mean, as we allude to, there's basically a contraceptive plot line in place of the pregnancy plot line. Right.

But it was so weird to the finale for Carolyn to be like, hello, Rusty's teenage daughter, get used to me. I'm pregnant. Like, that was such a weird, again, it just really makes me feel like I don't know who Carolyn is at all that she would say that in that moment, you know? And she's not even frazzled in that scene. I think there's so many ways, if you're going to come to that end point,

that you could have played the conversation between Carolyn and Jaden differently, that would make more emotional sense for those characters. But instead, the version we get, Carolyn, very matter-factly tells her, I am basically your new second mom. And also, I'm going to turn around, and you are going to transition from a normal ordinary teenager to a cold-blooded murderer in the blink of an eye with no explanation or no hint that that could happen.

Very frustrating stuff, Joe. I do want to shout out three other things to the movie that I like. And then we can get back to talking about the show if we want to. One is, I think it's forever iconic when Carolyn gets extremely horny, watching Rusty, do his closing argument in this child abuse case that they are trying. She gets super tuned on by his, like, competency. Or like virtue in the way that he's advocating for this child. And then she just says, it's going to be so good before she fucks it.

And it's just like this kind of iconic 90s erotic thriller moment is going to be so good. And then they just like have sex in his office. When Ray Horgan on the stand in the movie is lying about Rusty. Or no, I suppose it's in the office earlier when they're asking him if he's going to lie. And he's like, oh yeah, I'm going to go up there and I'm going to lie. And this is why. That's a fundamental change too from the show where in the movie, Ray basically insists that Rusty take on the case of Carolyn Pilemus. Right.

And later the lie that you're talking about is he, he basically flips his story to say that Rusty volunteered and wanted the case. But in fact, like, the Ray in the movie is obsessed with politics at all costs and is desperate for a win and basically forces Rusty to take the case. I think the casting of Bryant-Denahy is perfect for corrupt Chicago. Fucking love Denahy. Dirty. But he says of Rusty, you have the quirk on too tight.

When you blue, you blew, you blue. Which has made me think a lot of Tommy Maltos. like snap cross, which was like a really good connection. I think that's all I want to say about the movie. Anything else you want to say about the movie or

the show? I think one of the most important changes, the Scottish malt that we know and love in the movie is Zorak 5. Uh-huh. Look, it just comes, it's easier off the tongue, Scottish malt. I appreciate the adaptive change. Would the email

have been Zorak 5? Then it gets really confusing because you got to specify the V for the 5. I'm so glad it was Scottish malt carpet at gmail.com, Joe. And also, like, this is how shit is marketed and label these days. Nobody's selling Zorak 5. Scottish multer is nothing. One of our listeners identified this throw blanket on the back of psychiatrist Lily Raib's couch as being a potential source of the Scottish malt fibers

that we see Barbara on the couch with her shoulder rubbing up against this carpety looking throw blanket that has a fiber that could I don't know what Scottish malt is to be honest with you but I'm like I could conceivably think that that was Scottish malt if it had to be

instead Scottish malt doesn't matter at all this whole assumption that the body was moved and positioned I guess it was positioned but was not moved anywhere and the only reason there would be any kind of Scottish malt carpet in the house is that every member of the Savage household was rolling through Carolyn's place at some point or another. What are we saying with the show?

I think that's what we come back to is like if Jane's the murderer, what are we trying to say at the end of the day about someone like Rusty Savage? I mean, I think the main thing they're getting at, which is part of his closing argument, is like, yep, I'm a piece of shit and this is my fault. Even if I didn't swing the fire poker. Right. As Harrison Ford says in the closing of the movie, I'm the person who set all of these events in motion.

I did think that was good writing, too, that I accept your contempt. I deserve your contempt. Yes. I thought that part of his closing remarks was very effective. And then I think Tommy being like, sure, he wants to, okay, take a good look at me, okay, but then take a good look at him.

At this charming motherfucker over here, trying to pull the wool over your eyes or the Scottish malt. At the end of the day, I don't regret watching the show. I think it starts. really strong. I think it's got great performances. I think like a lot of other DVD Kelly shows, it got like kind of soft in the middle and then like kind of

downright unrappled like some Scottish mull fibers at the end. I think if they had kept the ending where Barbara did it and to your point and added that like not only is rusty complicit in trying to throw suspicion all

over the all over the joint but also literally tying her up. Then that's it's like an even more sinister, gone girlish kind of ending, which makes the whole like dreamy, you don't know me, like musical montage at the end, like work much more, much better in that aesthetic, I think. So I think it was just like a real miss to change, you know, at whatever point they decided that it would be Jaden and not Barbara or some combination of Barbara and Rusty. I think that was just really cut the knees out from under the show that had a lot going for it.

They got a little preoccupied with whether they could change the ending and not to whether they should for literally no reason. Wow, you Jurassic Parked me. I love it. Just to quote Jaden, look, I took AP Astronomy so I can probably tell if something's coming from another planet, Joe. And let me tell you, this finale episode, and particularly the final reveal, it's from way out there. Different galaxy to say the least. Well, listen, thanks everyone for going on this ride with us. I know that there's plenty of people who actually really loved this ending and thought the whole show was great

and loved the shock of the ending and stuff like that. And to you, I say, great. I'm glad you loved it. I hope you consume all the ringgoon you ever want to in your life. What if she never consumed the ringgoon? Genuinely, we're not here to yuck anyone's yum, but I think this show could have been more. And like, honestly, perversely,

I'm kind of excited for a potential season too because I'm like, if they learn the right lessons from this, Yeah. Which is like what people did and didn't respond to and by people I mean me and by responded to I mean Tommy Maltos cat, then like season two, presumed innocent could be a real banger. Crank the cad dial way up.

All the way up. Crank the incomprehensible twist dial at least a little bit down. Turn the noise down. As a dog person. Yeah. How do you feel at the end of the day about all the cat content in this finale? Love it. Okay.

Love it as a character beat. I'm not just pro dog. Do I want a cat? in my own life? No. No. Am I cool with cats in general? Of course.

Like, I'm an animal guy at the end of the day. Not always, of course. Some people are hardliners, one or the other. So I'm glad to hear there. Yeah, but me watching this with Tommy Maltos' cat

is a little like me watching, like House of the Dragon and seeing some dragon human relations. And, you know, it's like a pat on the head or a knowing nod. Like, you know, I'm here for human-animal bonding. Robahoney, I know you're freshly called.

caught up on House of the Dragon. Yes. What's your hottest House of the Dragon take that you want to get off? Are you trying to backdoor a fourth House of the Dragon podcast right now?

Listen, COVID has delayed some of my House of the Dragon Pots this week, so I might as well get my takes in where I can. Well, we should say, so I did watch the presumed innocent movie before the finale, despite my protestations all season long.

The reason for that is very simple. We did not have screeners to this final episode. I, like you, have also been battling COVID for the last week. And the idea of, oh, am I going to have time to watch this episode probably twice and then a two-hour movie and then we're going to roll into a morning record? Is that going to be a plausible thing for me in a COVID world? I deemed not.

And in retrospect, maybe I would have waited. But I will say knowing the movie in advance, it did give the finale a little extra juice and a little extra charge, where now I'm looking for the changes. I'm looking for the swings. I'm like, oh, this is similar or this isn't similar. that honestly was a fun part of the experience that although I didn't get to do it all season, I am kind of glad I got to do for the finale in a way.

I didn't know you had COVID. Or did you tell me in my COVID brain back? No, I did not. That was my last pull-out-the-rog component on this podcast. We both have COVID. How fun for us. And we did this podcast anyway. Thanks to Kai Grady, who as far as I know, does not have COVID. And thanks to Justin Sales,

whose COVID status remains completely unknown to me. And we'll be back, as I said, next week, right, with some leftovers content. And can we just say, we think we know what our first episode is that we're doing, right? Yes. We're doing international assassin, which is largely considered to be, if not the best episode of the leftovers, at least the second best episode of the leftovers. If you don't consider the finale the best episode. And I don't want to speak for you, Joe, but extremely my shit. Oh, extraordinarily my shit.

Let's go. Season 2 episode 8, there's a question for you, Rob. Since it is, it's quite a surreal episode of television. Yeah. Do you think you can watch this episode without having seen any of the leftovers? I would guess you could. You're not getting all the contents,

but like, if someone's at home and they're like, I don't have time to do the whole thing, can I just do this one episode? of all the random plucked out of season two episodes of television one could talk about I would say this is the one where you could theoretically just watch it and then maybe you're like this is sick

I'm gonna go watch I'm gonna go watch all of the leftovers but you know obviously everything's better with the full context which we will provide yes could you appreciate every cut of Justin Thoreau's musculature just jumping into the show of course you could can you enjoy the broader surrealism of that episode Yeah.

But why would you jump in at that entry point with one of the greatest shows that's ever been made, and certainly one of the greatest modern shows in television history, at maybe it's least representative episode, I would say, in terms of the tonality,

in terms of the exact execution of the show, I wouldn't say it exactly exemplifies the leftovers. So watch it, you know? You jags, watch the leftovers. Watch it, you jags. You can quote me on that. Put it on the... DVD box. If for

Justin Thoreau's 8-pack if nothing else. And we'll see you next week for that. Thanks so much. Let's just leave it. One more Consume the Rangoon hit, please, as we go out. Thanks, Guy. What if she never consumed the Rangoon?

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