The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Ren Faire’ Review: Medieval Times Meets ‘Succession’

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Justin Sayles and Jodi Walker struggle for power to recap ‘Ren Faire,’ a three-part HBO docuseries. They start by discussing their personal experiences with renaissance fairs, the complicated trio of main characters at the heart of this absurd Texas Renaissance Festival conflict, and what makes the Safdie brothers–produced documentary so refreshing (1:23). Along the way, they talk about how ‘Ren Faire’ illustrates themes indicative of our time regarding older people in positions of power (17:55). Later, they debate who ended up being the most tragic figure in the story and whether the blend of traditional documentary filmmaking with highly stylized techniques fully landed (29:13). Hosts: Justin Sayles and Jodi Walker Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D. concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson, and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Van Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman, and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

Poo! We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to the Prestige TV podcast,

a podcast where we talk about all the wonderful television coming to you, all the series, and in this case, all the docu series. My name is Justin Sayles, and today we are here to discuss one of the most original shows that I've seen this year, Renfair. It's a three-part documentary on HBO Max that explores a world that we seldom see, or at least that I've seldom seen, the world of the Texas Renaissance Festival, a Renfair, possibly the largest in the world, And it is a succession style drama or King Lear, depending on what your reference points are,

that is really just a wild look at a world that, again, we seldom see. And helping me break this down today is my friend, the co-host of We're Obsessed over on Ringer Dish here on the Ringer Podcast Network. The Lady of Corn, does that work for you? Jody Walker. Jody, how are you doing today? You know, I just want to hit you with a good old ha-zah, which is not a word I feel comfortable saying at all, but had to get comfortable with very quickly. Jody, we're here to discuss Renfair, a show that you just finished a show that.

I've now watched twice in preparation for this. So I have a lot of, yes, I've watched this all the way through twice. And I have some interesting questions that I want to ask you a little bit later on. But I think the best place to start is I wasn't sure if we were going to cover this. Frankly, I'm not sure what the audience is for this. I don't know how people are feeling about quirky documentaries that feel. feel kind of in the, I mean, this is a Saffty Brothers produced documentary. It kind of feels like Nathan Fielder, John Wilson, everyone in L.A., John Mullaney's adjacent like this, but not necessarily

cringy like some of these things can be. But you watched episode one and you slacked me. And the reason I decided that we should do this is you slacked me, you said you watched episode one and that you were, quote, flying. Why? I was. I forgot that I said that, but I was flying and hearing you list all of those things that are sort of inspirations that are things that I love, which I would generally describe as like, they're really funny and you're not laughing out loud. Like, you are intellectualizing that something is really funny. I, no, I would not say this, this, um, this docket series is at times very funny. It is also at times, most times, so tragic. Um, and the ability, I think that's why I was flying high

as it was making me feel a lot of things. I went into it thinking like maybe it was going to be sort of a Tiger King situation. And in that very, like, you're joining this intimate world that maybe you know a little about

or maybe you know nothing about and there's this eccentric character in the middle. It is sort of like that. But there's so much more... Maybe it's because they're at the Renfair, but there is sort of a regalness to it. And these characters are just wild. For me, I think I was flying high mostly from Jeff.

You have a question in the outline that says, how many Louise have you met in your life? And I don't know, but I've met 1,000 Jeffs in my life. Oh, interesting. So I'm very interested to hear how we kind of took on each of these characters. Let's hold off on that for a minute. We go through the three main characters and the side characters that we love. I am happy that you wanted to do this.

I really love this. I love a good documentary. I love a good docu-series. I feel like we don't get enough of these things these days, and we can kind of talk about that a little bit later. But this thing was great. First of all, I feel like this is a perfect HBO show, especially with House of the Dragon coming back this week.

It kind of straddles the line between Game of Thrones and Succession in a strange way. There's a dragon character within the docu-series, just kind of a... impish, beheaded dragon who pops in to be a dick, which is fun? Yeah. You can tell the level of care that went into this thing, like relative to, we see so many documentaries where it's like, it opens with, like, the subject sitting down and, like, putting on the mic and being like, you know, talk like this. It's a talking head documentary, and this is not that.

This is the kind of documentary that you don't really see a lot of anymore. And like I said, a few times up top, it took me into a world that I don't really think about a lot. And the second I was told the premise, I was like, this isn't my world, but I'm fascinated about this world. And by that world, I mean Renaissance fairs. And my first question to you, Jody, are you a Renaissance fair person? Do you consider yourself a Renfairhead? I'm not. And for me, I feel like that line was very narrow and I avoided it or rather didn't get to partake in it early. The reason I've known a lot of Jeffs in my life and we'll get into, it is because I was very into high school theater.

And that meant that I did have some overlap in high school with what we called, like, the Renaissance Fair gang. So my high school actually did have like a click of Renaissance Fair kids who went all the time. I assume they were going to this Renaissance Fair. I'm from Texas. I had no idea. I had no idea it was this huge. and I'm sure they were also going to local ones.

But yeah, there were like kids at my high school making their own chain mail and coming to school in the dresses. I went to a very big high school where we could have every click you can imagine. But that was my full exposure. I didn't go, I had a little bit of overlap in theater class because as you can imagine,

the Renaissance gang was also very into theater. But no, this was an... And I'll say that about the doc is... In the first episode, I was... I was still kind of like, I was so into the characters and the power struggle, but I was still kind of like, what is this Renaissance Fair? To alleviate you of that, they get really into it in episode two and three. I feel like you learn a lot more about the inner workings.

But yeah, this is a very new world to me. Have you ever been to a Renaissance Fair? Once. Once and never again. I mean, yes, very much, though. So when it was when I was fresh out of college, I had a girlfriend at the, the time whose family was into Renaissance fairs. So I, on one Sunday in autumn in New England, where I grew up, I had to drive with her family an hour and a half to go to a Renaissance fair.

And something I don't like to admit on podcasts is I'm vegan. It's a tough pill to swallow, but we'll get on board. Like, what are you going to do? But I go to this place and the family's all eating the turkey legs and all this stuff. There's nothing for you. There's absolutely nothing for me at a renaissance fair, to the point that the entire family was dressed up, guess who wasn't? Justin the vegan. Yeah, Justin the vegan. Just the guy who just won't play along.

We lasted about another like six weeks probably. I didn't want to pry, but I was curious, the longevity of this relationship. Justin, why didn't you, did you not dress up because you're cool, or did you not dress up because you didn't know you were supposed to or you thought it would be fine? one and three. Not because I am cool, but because I think I'm too cool for it. And the third one, yeah, I thought it would be fine. And it's just not. Like the thing I've learned in the intervening years since, you know, the dark ages, the medieval ages when this happened is that you just have to commit to the bit. If you are going to go do karaoke, you can't be the person who just sits

there and doesn't sing. You got to figure out your song. If you're going to go to the Renfair, you got to dress up. And if you're not going to dress up, just don't go to the Renfair. Because you got to let the people at the Renfair have fun. Like you don't want to be the dark cloud and they're having so much fun. I don't necessarily subscribe to that meme of let people enjoy things.

But I do believe not like yucking their yum, which is like just let, you know, if someone's obsessed with something, just, you know, let them be obsessed with it. Don't step in and be like, hey, this isn't for me. Yeah, I've got a whole podcast about it, Justin. It's called We're Obsessed on Ring or Dish. I'm well aware.

Come on over. I was trying to lay that up for you. I was waiting to see if you took it and you did. Thanks, man. Very quickly, I think we should get into Jeff and Louis, but before that, we should probably give a brief synopsis of the main character of this show, which is King George, a lonely 85-year-old man who plans. to die at the age of 95, who owns the Texas Renaissance Festival, which he founded in the 1970s.

He has created such a kingdom that he's even incorporated a town around the festival where he is the city manager. And there are streets. There's a city government. Like there is infrastructure improvements. He has created his own kingdom. And in fact, the series begins and ends on the question, what's a king without his kingdom? And at the beginning, it's free. And at the beginning, it's free. He says, a king without a kingdom is free because he's thinking about selling the festival because all George wants to do is do art and chase ladies. He wants to find a companion and have his art garden.

He has, and because he wants to offload this festival, he has no children, so there is no like, you know, there's no Kendall Roy in the waiting, right? But there is two people that are vying for the throne, so to speak. And I don't know, let's get into that. The first one is Louis, the king of corn, who is really like a guy that I would just describe as, you know, if this was 2018, I would say he's on his rise and grind. He is downing red bulls like you wouldn't believe.

He has big biohacker energy, but at the same time, drink so much Red Bull that you're like, dude, like, are you okay? I put in the outline, how many Louies have you met? And that is because I live in Los Angeles. And I would imagine that, Jody, have you ever been on the dating rap Raya? I'm not, I haven't because I don't live in Los Angeles. There's no Raya in Asheville, North Carolina. I would imagine that like every third guy on Raya is Louis.

And Louis is a guy who sees the beauty in capitalism, a quote that he says. He wants to bring, quote, new and immersive technology and EDM festival. to the, to the Renfair. My favorite thing is when he reveals himself in the first episode to be a trust fund kid, but he says, his parents are his biggest investors and then immediately corrects himself.

It says, creditors, which is like the most L.A., I'm trying to make it hustler shit, where it's like, I, you know, I have, I have investor, creditor, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever the hell. But he has a, he's this trust fund kid. My, his family is, quote,

thick with entrepreneurs. And my favorite detail is he has one tattoo sleeve and it is like a tribal geometric situation. And the third character that you brought up and we could take these in reverse order. Jeff, a grown man around the age of 60 who serves as the general manager of the Texas Renaissance Festival,

previously the entertainment director. And you know this thing in corporate philosophy how like you, sometimes you just get like promoted over, like you get promoted to like the last job that you were capable of doing and maybe a little overqualified for. Jeff might be a little overqualified as general manager. He's much more into the entertainment aspect of this

than he is managing the day to day. Jeff is a very sweet man, very avuncular. He quotes Willy Wonka and sings Shrek and seems to think of these things as, if not real life, then parables for real life. He says, unlike Louis, who is definitely motivated by money and corn, Jeff is motivated by, quote, magic.

He's worked at the festival for 43 years, and he says, I don't have children because he and his wife are children themselves. I have a very cursed question for you. Oh, no. I feel so sad when you talk about Jeff. And you did start off your description of him by calling him a grown man as if, like, that needed to be described. And in fact, it does from the following from what came after. But I'm ready. I'm ready for the cursed question.

You're ready for the curse question. Fuck marry, kill. Oh my God, Justin. Okay, no, I'm ready. Oh, for, wait, George Jeff, can we get Darlin here? I'll give you my answer. You don't have to answer it as a lady of the land, whatever the honorific titles are.

My current lady answer is like I would honestly like fuck all of them before I'd marry any single one of them, which is a real. It's like I, who, I keep finding myself in a situation where I have to marry Jeff. And I've seen what it's like to be married to Jeff. Oh, no. And it's dark.

And you're getting fired. His wife, Brandy, works with him. She basically hires him. And nepotism becomes a very big undercurrent of this, which I find fascinating. And I want to explore that a little bit later. Yeah, marrying Jeff is probably actually a bad deal. But here's a thing. I'm going to marry Jeff because I know at the end of the day,

I can just vibe out with Jeff and I can watch, I can watch shows like Renfair. I can just have a good time with Jeff. I think Jeff is a very sweet man at the end of the day. And, you know, he gets enough from his own, he gets enough from his career that, like, he wouldn't be that demanding of me. Justin, you have the wrong read on Jeff, but I want you to be able to hold on to it. Okay. I would absolutely 100% kill Louis.

There is like not a doubt in my mind. I would kill Louis. I don't care if he is like the, I don't care if. He's like the fittest of them all. Like, I just like, no. I've lived in L.A. long enough. I know enough Louise. I would kill Louis.

And that leaves me with the most undesirable answer possible, and I will not say the words out loud. However, we do know one thing about King George. And that's he really likes to fuck. And he is on Viagra, Cialis, and a weekly testosterone shot. So you're in luck. Well, that's the thing, right? When he begins, the first episode, he gets,

an update on his cancer. And it's never really explored beyond that that he has cancer. But his first questions are, can I take my Viagra Ancialis, which I don't know. Like, luckily I'm a little bit younger than George. I don't have to know the answer to this question. But can you take both at once? And on top of that testosterone? And also, my biggest question, he's not even having sex.

Why is he taking all these things? He talks about having sex a lot like he is and maybe we're just not seeing it but ultimately we only see one and a half olive garden dates and one never gets past that she doesn't have natural breasts. So it's hard to imagine but he is buying the dates.

George is such a fascinating character and ultimately my favorite thing about this docu series is that it has all the makings of a true crime docu-series in that it is very much about power struggles, kind of like taking down or supporting a ruler. But there's no crime. You know, it's like it's a real nod to a different time,

it feels like there's nothing bad happens. It's just a power struggle, and it's a very fascinating power struggle. It's only three episodes as well. But like the fact that this, never turned into a cult is, I actually think it has to be a credit to George because the way that you hear people talk about him,

about him is like, this is not a benevolent guy. Like, this is not a great guy. But he also probably could have done worse, and he didn't. He just wants power, money, sex, and to work on his garden and to have his Rococo bathroom. And he gets those things,

so he, you know, doesn't, go further. So we've gone about 10 minutes and I haven't mentioned the, uh, the name of the director, uh, which is Lance Oppenheim, who is a young, up and coming documentary director who, have you seen the documentary sperm world on FX, Hulu? I have not, but it might have a couple answers for our Cialis questions earlier. They're, they're, they're, you're going to end up with more questions, but it's this fantastic documentary that, um, came out earlier this year. He's worked on a few things with the New York Times. I wanted to just shout him out very quickly, but I was reading some interviews with him. He said that his understanding is that George was actually on his

best behavior when the cameras were around. So they spent about 100 days filming this, like over the course of three years, and you can really tell. The way they portray George is very fascinating, because I think there's a world in which he absolutely comes across as a complete monster. But the way that they portray this guy, there is something sympathetic about him, especially the way that they hold off the reveal about his family life until the third episode. Like there's a world in which you start with that as like this core thing of his identity and that comes out in episode one or two. But like you spend two hours with this guy and you see, you start to see the inner workings

of his brain for better or worse. You see his book collection, which I want to shout out a couple books on his shelf. How to Create a Perfect Wife. Textbook on Arectile dysfunction. Mastering Bitcoin. Talk about cursed. I think that you might also, on Raya, there might be a couple guys to have all three of those books on their shelves as well. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

George is, I think, indicative of a lot of things that you see in America right now, which is as we are getting older as a nation. You see a lot of people, I mean, look at our presidential race this year. You see a lot of older people, like unwilling to relinquish power, even if they know that on some level it's in their best interest. The Texas Renaissance Festival is so integral to who he is that, you know, the series opens with the question of, what's a king without his kingdom? And he says, free at the beginning. It bookends and ends with that same exact question. And it said, what's a king without his kingdom? And he says nothing. It's hard to believe that he felt any other way that entire time. To go, you know, full pop psychology from the little bits that we get about his family. It's not that he just that he doesn't have people around him

to trust. It's that he was, or at least he believes he was taught not to trust by his family. And you hear him tell these stories about his family. And you mentioned, you know, we really don't get any reference to it until the third episode, which maybe a lesser documentary or a different documentary may have led with those things. I was glad that. they waited until the third episode to give this story, which was very Robert Durst, by the way, of like he's out in the hallway listening to his mom, tell her sister about all the things that Georgie is doing wrong,

and he's listening. And when she comes back out, she says, oh, I'm sorry, sweetie, you weren't supposed to hear that. I'm just frustrated. And he, in this present moment, as an 85-year-old, says she was a bitch. And it's just like, it's a little bit like, oh, yeah, oh, it was massaged.

all along. Like, of course, of course, you know, that like your mother is either a St. Robert Durst or a bitch, George, the Renaissance man. And like, there is no, there is no right that you're going to be harmed either way. And that's kind of the story with any family, right? Is that, like, he feels harmed by his family. He says, he also says that this Mormon family that he felt he was sort of cast out by when he opened the Renaissance Festival, it was really successful. He's like, and did any of them come and say, congratulations, George, this is amazing? Of course not.

And then he says, and I don't care. I don't care. And it's like, yeah, man, you sound like you don't care. But, like, he's very, he is clearly very harmed by these things, does not allow himself to feel the harm or admit to the harm. And it seems to me very obvious that the reason that he doesn't have a family around him is because he has chosen not to. He doesn't want a Kindle Roy.

He doesn't want anyone to hand this down to. He doesn't want anyone who can challenge his power. I really liked Darla, who is probably my favorite character. Who's basically the Jerry from Succession of this, by the way. Logical and uninvested emotionally. This does not matter to me. She is the only person that we greatly meet in this docu-series who is capable of happiness because she's got a boat.

Her on the boat is like one of the one of my favorite scenes. in a documentary of the past couple years. Amazing. And that's what the, oh, God, there are so many scenes that are that, like, this is hilarious, but I'm not laughing out loud type of comedy, where they cut from just George berating her.

Like, be it, you know, and it's like, it seems like what we're setting up is like Darla has made a mistake. Now she has the power, all this power that she wanted, and it was a mistake. Now her life is hell. And it cuts to her on that boat. her life isn't hell because she doesn't care about the power or the passion like the other players

that we meet do. And she says about George, George is afraid because his entire being is wrapped up in this. He's built this kingdom in this little bubble where he has control and leverage over everyone. And that kind of power is not much different than an addiction. He's created this world around him where he's all powerful and no one, especially not family, can keep him accountable or take away his power? You pointed out those first two lines, what is a king without his kingdom, he's free,

what is a king without his kingdom, he's nothing. He's created this prison for himself, and he won't allow anyone to take him out of it because he's addicted to it. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about zebbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea,

OSA and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zetbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitide and should not be used with other terseptide-containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it,

or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia.

If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. Crack a Cayman Jack Margarita and taste your escape.

It's America's number one for a reason. Cayman Jack is a premium malt beverage with flavors. Please drink responsibly. Kamen Jack beverage company, Chicago, Illinois. I have another possibly cursed question for you. If you flew halfway across the country to meet a man, and like this is all hypothetical, Jody. That you know of.

I hope. So that you meet a man on a sugar daddy site. Uh-huh. And you fly halfway across the country. And the sugar daddy wants you to meet him at an olive garden. How are you feeling? Are you feeling like you made a big mistake? Are you feeling like you landed on the wrong sugar daddy site?

The thing about the Olive Garden is that I know that's the nicest restaurant in town. I mean, the man lives in a town that he created that's absolutely full of turkey legs. One of my favorite lines from the documentary is when the guy says, like, I met George and George allowed me to put sausage on a stick. And like, now that guy's a millionaire because he was allowed to put sausage on a stick. So I think if I have any amount of context, which is like this guy runs a Renaissance Fair in a town that he created, Then I would be like, yeah, maybe this Olive Garden is fine. But I saw what that gal saw on his online Sugar Daddy profile,

which is that he has a net worth of over $100 million. No, I don't know if that's true. But I think I'd still be holding on to hope. Because, like, rich people are the most go to Olive Garden. You know, they're the most, like, I'm not going to spend my money because I'm hanging on to it. And I'm not going to give you this. money, sugar baby, until I know that you're worthy of it. And I know if you have breast implants,

as is a very specific caveat for George. Do you think me and my Renfair girl would have lasted if I took her to Olive Garden a little bit more? I think that you would have lasted if you took her to Olive Garden in the costume that you wore to the Renaissance Fair because it was a Renaissance Fair. I have an Olive Garden costume and it's just, you know, me walking around doing an Italian accent, You know, like George, of course, sets up many dates. He, one of my favorite side characters is the King Scroller, who just seems to be assigned to solely managing his 15 profiles on 15 different Sugar Daddy sites. Which is like, that's the job you take.

You know, you don't take, don't be the right hand to the king. Be the scroller to the king because this old man doesn't know how little. you're doing. You know how to use the internet, and that's literally magic to him. Like, the magic is not in what Jeff, Jeff thinks that he is creating magic. He is not. The King's Scroller is creating magic because he knows how to use the internet, and he's getting George access to natural breasts. And, like, that is what it takes. And you know what? I bet their paychecks aren't that far apart. Like, nothing indicated to me that Jeff was making a lot of money. And I bet that the King's scroller is making just as much

because what he's doing at this point in George's life is much more valuable. Yeah, that's the thing. George, he does not seem to care about marketing plans. He does not really, you know, he's not concerned with the specifics. He wants to know that they exist, but he doesn't seem to be too concerned with these. He wants to know that Jeff is on top of this.

He, of course, gets upset with Dahlah when she, when he isn't ready to present him with like five plans immediately, which seem like an unfair standard that he has set for Daule. I just want to throw that out there. Well, but I think what Darlin knows, what Jeff doesn't know, is that, like, no amount of what you do is going to make George happy. You could have a shitty marketing plan. You could have a perfect marketing plan,

and he's going to poke holes in them because they're not his plan. He doesn't know how to market anymore. I mean, he hasn't known what marketing would require in 30 years. But, like, there's not going to be any pleasing him. Is George too picky as a dater? Is he too picky? Yeah. It's hard.

Maybe this is like, you know, I'm sure I wanted more of George dating because we got the little taste and I wanted to understand it a little bit more. It possibly sort of sullies this docu-series this docu-series in a way that I wouldn't have wanted. But honestly, when he said that his age range was 30 to 50, I was like, that is stunningly age appropriate for this man. And his main issue seems to be that all of the women are too young. Both of the women we see him meet are 24, which for him is too young. For him it's too young because he doesn't respect women. And he's like, they haven't read the same poetry books that I have.

How could I possibly speak to them? I don't think a 30-year-old or a 50-year-old would please him either. Yes, I think that he is too picky and he is unaware of what money cannot buy, which per Lou Anne Deliseps on The Real Housewives of New York is class. Money can't buy you class. I want to talk about Jeff, but I think that maybe the best way to get into this is through another question that I had for you, which is Lance Oppenheim, the director, has said that this started out as a comedy and it turned into a tragedy. Maybe I'm leading with this question by bringing Jeff up in advance. But who is the most tragic figure coming out of this? Is it, in fact, Jeff?

It's Jeff, and I'll tell you why. Okay. I'm skipping to the end, but because this is tragic, so many people don't get what they want, and in the end, you know, spoilers for the very end, but you find out that none of the twists that you thought were going to work out, worked out, and George has in fact appointed himself the general manager of the Renaissance Fair that he runs, owns the town in and is surely going to run into the ground because he's dying and he's going to die

and then what happens. And that's what the whole docket series about is he can't relinquish this power. And I think that the ultimate message of this story is that these people, are some of them are better for having known George, for having experienced the Renaissance Fair, but you have to understand different chapters of your life.

And in the end, Darla and Louis are better off being away from George. And the only one who's still in George's orbit, who can't read the room, is Jeff. And he genuinely still believe. that he might get this role. And listening to him adapt the Willie Wonka metaphor throughout these three episodes to hit where he is. He's the head oompa-lupa, he says.

He starts off saying he's the head oompa-lumpa. And it's like, my guy, did any part of that story, whether in book or in film, ever suggests to you that the umpalumpa, the head umpalupa was who was going to take over the chocolate factory? Charlie takes over the chocolate factory. It's what the whole thing is about. And he's chosen by random chance and he earns his way to the top. That's a Lewy story, if I've ever heard one.

Sure. Except for the trust funnness. A golden tickets, golden tickets. He's Charlie. Now he's the right hand of the king. He talks about being the right hand of the king. Like, again, that is not who ascends to the throne. These are not people who become the king watching him.

And he keeps saying that he's playing the long game. And he says in the third episode, basically that quote about like, you know, like the, it's not this, but it's like the definition of insanity is like doing the same thing over and over and like never learning from it. And he doesn't see that that's what he's doing. To get out of his funk after he's fired from general manager,

he tells himself that that probably wasn't the right job for him. And what you were saying earlier, like, it really is, this doc is like a just sort of a classic corporate tale. You know, like, it is just like a story about the workplace. It just happens to be a fascinating workplace. We are often promoted out of our strengths. We start as artists. We start as writers. And all of a sudden, we're managing people.

And we're making, you know, business. decisions. We're writing marketing plans, and we don't know what we're doing anymore. What we definitely know is we are not doing what we used to like to do. That's what's happened with Jeff. To hear him at the end tell his long-suffering wife, which is why I cannot believe that you have chosen to marry him. And I say all this with agreeing that Jeff seems very kind and sweet. That's what makes it so tragic. To hear him say that he still thinks that once the Louis plan crumbles, He'll be back. If he were asked to be general manager, he'd do it.

That is so tragic. Stand up, Jeff. Stand up. Who do you think is the most tragic figure? It's Jeff. It's that scene in the car where he's singing Shrek, which is... It broke my heart.

And then almost immediately, you get the firing scene. And the firing scene... So one thing I wanted to talk about, And we've gone a long time. I think like the most controversial element of this documentary is the fact that it blends traditional documentary film style making with a lot of highly stylized narrative elements that we see in like a traditional series. Like in some ways, it's filmed like a Safdi Brothers film, right?

Like there's use of lighting, like, you know, the way that they use the camera and the way that you don't traditionally see. And I don't think that documentaries need to look a certain way. In fact, I think most documentaries today are kind of boring. I've kind of, you know, we talked about this when we talked about the jinx a few weeks back, how we have just, we have gotten to the point where most documentaries are made because they are cheap and easy to make. And this is, this is not that. This is something that took a long time to make and, like, a lot of effort went into this.

And it looks really beautiful. At times, I kind of brushed up against the parts that felt like they were recreating moments. Like that phone call at the end of the... episode one where you know it's um jeff and brandy in Germany attending this festival and then he gets the phone call from the assistant and she says that

louis has put together the plan he's going to buy the festival he's going to take over and you that is like obviously a moment that's recreated and then you watch jeff kind of stumble through this festival in germany while you get all this like You get the character saying, like, he's never going to sell it or like whatever, whatever they're saying, right? Like, they're just, they're basically like reflecting Jeff's internal monologue.

Those moments, I don't know if they, I enjoy them. I think stepping back, I'm not sure if they 100% worked for me. The moment that I think this documentary kind of transcended into like, okay, they're actually doing something very special was the firing scene. And it was not a. recreation, but they only had the audio, and it was very bad audio. And as somebody who did a podcast, the wedding scammer, you can listen to on the Ring or Podcast Network, I had to use some recordings that were taken secretly and then kind of making, you know, trying to force me to make a meal, a lot of scraps. They did that to like such an incredible degree. So they're playing this recording

and they're cutting to all of these Renaissance paintings. And you see, you know, you see Jesus. you see people shooting arrows at Jesus. And it is absolutely beautiful. But it is also heartbreaking. And it also just drives home that Jeff is absolutely the most tragic figure of the story. And the second most tragic

might actually be Brandy. Oh, yeah. Again, a position that you have willingly put yourself in in a game that you created. But go ahead. No, I mean, Brandy can see all of this

but because of her love for Jeff, she just sticks by his side. I should also point out that reading through some interviews with Lance, the director, Jeff and Brandy are very high on the series. They think that, like,

I want to ask you about how, like, how you feel these characters were portrayed? And, like, do you feel like this was, if this were you, would you be mortified about how you were portrayed?

But at least through Lance's telling, Jeff and Brandy are very pleased with how they were, they basically said, you made something beautiful out of something so awful, which, you know, he did. But they seem

to think that their portrayal was okay. Two things here. One is that they're artists. And so like, or, you know, fancy themselves artists. They are actors. They have both been the creative director at times for this Renaissance Fair.

And in those more stylized moments, of the docu-series, which I agree sometimes work. I would say they often took me out of it because I was just like, how did they get this? Like, is this just a real miracle of getting something? Someone was sort of staring at the right place at the right time? Or did they say, Jeff, look here and we're going to, you know,

or like George look here and we're going to pretend like you're talking to your angels? Like those kinds of things took me out a bit. But you'll notice that most of the most stylized elements happen him with Jeff because Jeff is game and he's an actor and he when they want him to recite a monologue, he will do it happily. When they want him to walk around a dark and dirty German alleyway and look scared, he'll do it. You know, like for him, I think that those parts of this were probably really fun. And then the other thing is that I think, and this is not a full dig because all of our

our greatest strengths are our greatest weaknesses, but I think that Jeff lacks a great amount of seeing himself clearly. You know, I think he watches this, and he sees how he comes across as the nice guy, the worthy recipient, the right hand who was betrayed, and he doesn't see how he comes across as a guy who is betraying himself, who has put himself in a position to be unhappy, who is not actually following his passion. That's why I say that, like, I don't, I haven't known a lot of Louies. I've known a lot of Jeffs because I've had a lot of high school theater directors. And there's a lot of like, no, I'm very happy with what I'm doing.

I'm changing lives. I wish nothing more that I was still, like, being Shrek on stage. you know, I wish I was Shrek on Broadway. Are you saying that I should just marry the guy with the trust fund and that's always the option? I'm saying that this documentary is apparently incredibly subjective and yeah, you should marry the guy with the trust fund. There's a whole TikTok sound about it right now.

Yeah. That man is 6'5 Blue Eyes, Trust Fund, Finance. Like that is a TikTok sound right now and that is, I mean, Yeah, for me, like, Louis seemed okay. He honestly, unfortunately, did a pretty good job of, like, making me forget that he is just, you know, like a product of privilege and that he would not have his corn empire without it. But I think I found him to be a businessman, no matter how he came to that business. And that's what, it's like, for me, that's what it needs. There's no good solution here.

This thing needs to crumble to the ground. I mean, the whole thing was with succession was Logan Roy was never going to give it up until he died. This is literally that in real life. Yeah. Which, you know, I don't know. Like, okay, the fuck marry kill question was unfair because it was fun, but it's unfair because it was, I guess, most unfair to me because you've talked me into thinking like, God, I'm, boy, am I marrying down. I mean, we just, we haven't, we have not put words to it that because of George's aversion to nepotism, Jeff fires his wife from the creator of director role.

And worse than that, we see him when they're doing auditions. We see him as a husband with his wife in the creative director role that he used to be in. He is talking over her. He is disregarding her. He is putting himself back in the role that he truly wants to be in because he does want power. He does want to be in the general manager role, but he still wants to be in the creative director role. And it's very childlike the way that he still wants. You know, he wants to have his cake and eat it too.

And Brandy sees it, but she loves him. She calls him out on it. But when he, on a German street, when she just wants to go home and go to sleep and watch Big Bang Theory in German, And he won't let her, he won't just not let her go. He makes her say that George is a benevolent king. Do you think that was style? That was crazy. I thought that was real.

And I can't say for certain. I think it was. I think that part was real. I think that part was real. I should say, there were some moments where I'd be kind of curious. And this is where I'd be kind of curious to ask Lance, like how much editing went into some of this dialogue. Rewatching, I watched on headphones on my laptop where I watched on my TV.

first time. I caught a few strange edits. Like, I do believe this was the emotionally honest version of this story. But, like, there were little things I picked up on, like, he's on a video call from Germany with George. And George, basically, he says, what, what else do you need for me? And George just says nothing. And then it just cuts to, like, yeah, click immediately. And I'm like, did that really happen like that? Like, those are the, those are the moments where I have those questions pop up more so than like when the dragon pops up to give advice. Right. Or George talking to his angels was a very funny moment, but like that wasn't bothersome to me in like the overall storytelling sense. But I do wonder about certain editing choices that may have changed the way

certain scenes actually played out. And I can't say that for certain, but that's a question that I would love to ask, Lance. I think the things that work really well are also the same. scenes that made me ask that question a little bit because Lance does a lot of this kind of like dichotomy between scenes. So like one of those where I was like is that we call it like a Frankenbite in the reality TV business where you're sort of like cutting together a line that didn't totally happen. These are like for me this is more like timeline frankinbiting. So when Jeff is at the German fair, and he calls George and leaves him a voicemail, and what we're seeing is that George is ignoring his call while he's in a meeting with Louis,

where Louis is putting up his off. And it's like, it's pretty unlikely that that is how it happened. But what we see is that he rejects his call. Jeff leaves him a voicemail and says one of the most treaseless. tragic lines I've ever heard, which is, he says, I wish you were here. And then he says, I can't wait to try calling you again. I can't wait to try calling you again. If George had started a cult, if he'd gone the much more obvious route of starting a cult,

Jeff would be in a much worse position. But I do feel like Jeff is kind of the recipient of most of those choices that are maybe not totally true to reality. And I guess if he's fine with it. then I'm fine with it. But it is, you know, it's a real creative product, this docu-series. Jeff is the proverbial dog that you kick and keeps coming back. It's tough to watch at points when he writes the email where he says, like,

where he uses the word beg, when he talks about trying to get his job back, that is a tough watch. And Brandy says at the exact moment I was thinking it, she said, I don't like that last part. Like, I don't, and then she specifically says, I don't like where you, that you said beg. And she says, but you know George better than I do. And he said, that's why I said it. And he gets his job back at what cost. Jody, you're making me rethink how I feel about Jeff.

It is interesting how it subjective it is, like, for you that Louis is a character who is, like, really so obvious. Like, you see things in him that are not on the screen. For me, Jeff was that character. And that's what, like, that's why I was flying when I watched the first episode is, because I just felt so familiar in a completely unfamiliar space. And it's like very special for a docu-series to be able to do that. Look, next time you come to L.A., we're going to go out in Silver Lake, and I'm going to point out that guy's a Louis, that guy's a Louis.

You're not going to see a lot of, there are Jeffs in L.A. Don't get me wrong. It's not like Louis is, it's not like L.A. is all Louis. There were plenty of Jeffs, except, you know, here they end up being, you know, marginally successful screenwriters. That's a world that Jeff could live in. That could be Jeff's life if he stopped choosing George. But yeah, I mean, I've met some Louies.

More than the Shrek moments for Jeff, Louis singing bad romance and working the word corn in there, that actually made me crawl out of my skin. Because there is something so earnest about what Jeff is doing. And there's just something so manufactured and corny about. what Louise's doing. I think you're right. I think there is a projection going on here for both of us. Yeah. I do want to ask you. Lance, the director, said that one of the, he listed a bunch of influences for this. Obviously, King Lear is an influence. Obviously, Succession is influenced by King Lear. It's obvious to see that in it. He referenced there will be blood, which is something I can very clearly see in parts of this. Fascinating. But another thing that he mentioned in an interview

was Vanderpump Rules. I don't watch Vanderpump Rules. I've only consumed Vanderpump Rules through a Jody Walker podcast, an American Scandival, which you can hear here on the Ringer Podcast Network. Can you explain to me how Renfair, the docu-series on HBO,

is influenced by Vanderpump Rules, the very famous, very controversial reality series? I would be interested to talk about him, talk to him about this a lot more, maybe for hours more. But my first instinct is that there is a famous, a very famous line from Vanderpump Rules spoken by Jacks Taylor, who is a Louis. They're all louis, I assume. Frequently high on not Red Bull or allegedly.

He's always running high. He is running like he is on 10 Red Bulls a day. He's flying high for sure. And in a truly flying high, Jack's moment, he screams at Tom Sandoval, one of the main subjects of my American Scandival narrative podcast, who is also a monster,

but has really hidden behind the smokescreen of what a monster, Jacks is, and Jaxes yells at Sandoval, I'm the number one guy in the group. You are actually, like you're the number one guy, but I'm the number one guy in the group. I mean, I don't want to put this on Jeff,

but he's a Sandoval. It makes sense. I've only seen pictures of the Vanderpump Rules cast, and I would not expect any of them to be a, to be a Jeff. Oh, Sandoval is a real nerd. He would love to play Shrek. Like, he, and there, for,

for Sandoval, it is, it is all false. I, and I think for Jeff, it is not, but there is his person, his character has always been very earnest. Like, he's kind of embarrassing. Like, he's very into costume. You know, it is, it is honestly very Jeff-like. And someone like Jacks or someone like Louis can't possibly see that kind of person

ascending to power, having value, being the number one guy in the group. There's this real, like, alpha-maleness to them that they can't, like, respect someone. one like that. I guess this is my next watch. I guess in my free time, this is what I'm going to do now. Get in. You're going to have a terrible time. And you're going to love it.

So at the end of the series, we get the post script. We get the epilogue where we see that. George has not sold the festival. Louis deal for the festival fell through. The Greeks who we, we didn't even touch the Greeks. The Greeks, I think, could have made their own fabulous. They could have been their own episode. The Greeks were, I was fascinated by them.

But they don't buy the festival. We find out that Jeff has gone back to being the entertainment director, which was his old job, and he's taken presumably a massive pay cut. Louis is still at the festival. The cameras have stopped now. What do you want for these people going forward? I want them to not want this. Like, I, that's, you know, I left kind of.

of, I mean, they really, they kick you in the stomach with those final title cards that reveal that. Because it does for a minute just kind of seem like it's all going to work out. Like, Jeff is back at entertainment director, which is where he should be. He might not know that or believe it, but it's true. And I'm sure Brandy knows it, although she was fired from that role. And he did fire her personally, so that is tough. But he is back at creative director. Louis has given George an offer that he is actually going to take.

They're going through the motions of Louis buying the Rhinfest so that George can retire and do his art in his garden and go on his sugar baby dates, which is what he has sworn up and down to us via a number of graphic design signs that he wants to do. And it's like, that works out, you know, that works out. And then in the last 30 seconds, you get the title cards that George has appointed himself general manager is not retiring. The plan fell through. We don't know Louis' involvement with the Renfair. And Jeff is most tragically still creative director. And my feeling was just, and that Darla has been fired as GM. And like, my feeling for Darla and Jeff, or Darla and Louis was like, good.

Like, you guys don't need to be doing this. Darla seems very capable. Louis has a corn empire. And, like, that's what they should do. He should bring EDM to this place to the extent that he can do it. He doesn't need to own it to do that. And no one does. Like, this is not an arena.

See reality. This is not an arena where you can gain more power. Stop trying. Move on or be happy where you are. That is. my hope for them. My hope is that Louis can build a time machine and bring Avici beats to the medieval times. I hope that George and Pope, the first woman that he goes on a date with, I hope they start a book, like a little book correspondentist back and forth. I want great things for Pope. I don't know what

she's doing flying in from San Francisco to go on these dates. I mean, I do know what she's doing. She was lovely. I was like, George, what are you talking about? I mean, the fact that she didn't like even flinch and was still very warm and kind under his, you know, grand inquisition about her natural breasts. I was like, this is, this is prime sugar baby material. You need to lock that down. Yeah, she, I thought she was, I thought she was lovely. Another person who I thought was lovely and who I obviously related to was the podcast host, the Renaissance Fair podcast host. I think that he'd be a great addition to the Ringer podcast network. I want to if he has any takes on Celtics Mavs?

No, I don't want to change a thing. I don't want him to start commenting on sports or pop culture. I just want him to bring the Renaissance bear to us. Jody, you know what it's like here. The most successful people can do a bunch of different things. So if he can bring the Renaissance fear to us and also like start breaking down like, you know, the Chief's chances to win again this season, I think he'd be great. Last question, are there any industries that you think are ripe for this kind of

exploration for stories that we haven't possibly seen. What is the most fascinating industry? Because I didn't know, like, I didn't know I needed a Renfair festival. However, when I saw that there was a Renfair festival with a power struggle, I was like, yeah, I'm 100% locked in. This is a great question. I think about this a lot in regards to below deck, which is about the luxury yacht industry, which is never an industry I knew I needed to know anything about. And now I know everything about it. Disney is like the most interesting one I can imagine is like going behind the scenes of the people who work in these parks for pennies and are, it brings up the same thing of like, is it passion? Is it you're starting some sort of career? But it would never, I mean,

you'll never get behind the Disney walls. So that would never happen. I want you to take us into the walls of a high school theater, theater group with a teacher who has been there forever. It's just Glee. Glee is a documentary. Okay. Fair enough. Another thing I haven't seen. Another thing I haven't seen, which I will be adding to the watch list along with Vanderpump rules. Don't do that. That's not for you, Justin. That's not a safe space for you.

Okay, fair enough. If I ever find myself with Jeff and we have time to kill, maybe we'll finally dive into it. But in the meantime, I will, just be going out in L.A. and hanging out with all my louis. Jody, thank you so much. This has been lovely. I'm glad that we could get together to just do another documentary about a man in his 80s who burps it in our opportune times. I want to thank everyone for listening. I want to thank Kai Grady for producing this episode. And we will see you back here soon.