The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Episode 3 Recap

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Jo and Rob return to break down the third episode of ‘Shogun.’ They discuss the contrast between the show’s use of digital effects and its production design, what Toranaga’s clever getaway plan reveals about his character, and the bubbling connection between Mariko and Blackthorne. Along the way, they talk about the action-heavy escape in the Osaka sequence and how it differs from the book. Later, they close by unpacking the stalemate between the Council of Regents upon Toranaga’s sudden departure. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Borashead committed to craft since 1905. Back to the presage TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. Join today by Rob Mahoney. And we're here to talk about a stranger and a strange land, sort of trying to acclimate himself to a new cold. and perhaps the stirings of romance along the way. No, it's not Dune 2, though we could talk about that for hours.

We're going to talk about Shogun, Episode 3, Tomorrow is Tomorrow. Rob, how are you feeling on your Shogun journey so far? And is it odd for us to be talking so much about Shogun and Dune 2, which has some of similar trappings at the same time? It just means we're really living, you know? At this point in our lives, we get high production value, high concept,

high execution level, movies and TV at the same time, who knew it was possible? This episode, Episode 3, Tomorrow's Tomorrow, is written by Shannon Goss, directed by Charlotte Brandstrom,

and it is a very sort of action-heavy episode, a big, let's get the gang out of Osaka episode. And so we're going to talk about some of those beats. We kind of want to take a bigger look at some of the character revelations on this episode before we get into some of the nitty gritty of who hit out where

and who shot whom with an arrow at what point. Before we do that, though, I just wanted to touch on two emails we got. Once again, that's top knots and man puns at gmail.com. Please send us your emails. We've gotten a plenty, but not our usual volume. I feel like people are either reticent to email or maybe not everyone is. I feel like people are kind of kind of. coming slowly to Shogun is what I have.

I got texts from people yesterday who are just catching up. So I feel like it's maybe building word of mouth. I don't know. What's your anecdotal experience with the numbers? I wouldn't be surprised if some of that is just with the meat of the double premiere episodes. You know, maybe you've made time for one, but not both. Maybe you've looked at the total runtime and said, like, I got to wait for the weekend. But I think people are starting to ease in.

And I've certainly heard a lot of, oh, I want to get to that. Oh, I want to check that. that I've heard such wonderful things. And I think we are in part of the chorus, spewing wonderful things about this show. Yeah, we love to spew wonderful things. So the two emails we got that I want to highlight. One is from listener Karen,

who said, I did a second watch. And noted that on the back of Yabushige's rock and roll black feather shrug, it says, Hachiman, which refers to a deity commonly thought as the god of war, such a cool garment. So, yeah, I'm just like, I don't know,

it's like writing Ares on the back of your jacket or whatever else your counterpart you want to say. Just makes that fit. Do you think you can rock the black feather shrug, Rob? I'm flattered you would even ask. That it's even a possibility in your mind means a lot to me, Joe, but absolutely not under any circumstances. I'm an admirer from afar.

I love Yabushige's entire sense of style. I love his helmet. I love his ensemble. Oh, yeah. Everything he's bringing to the table, I am buying metaphorically, but not buying online. I think you have to get something like that made for you bespoke anyway, Rob, just so you know. If you change your mind in the future.

Etsy is popping off with unofficial showgun merch right now. We also got an email from Andrew about we had asked about some of the lens blur around the edges of some of the frames in this show. And Andrew writes, I won't pretend to know the specific camera package they're shooting the show on. But that's a pretty typical characteristic of anamorphic camera lenses. Another dead giveaway for shows or films shot on anamorphic is nearly any time you see the, quote, J.J. Abrams lens flare that crosses the frame off a strong light source in that distinct horizontal line. And then I was just sort of trying to Google around to see if I could find an answer for Andrew as to what lenses they're using.

And I found this post on the cinematography subreddit. They're talking about the blur on Shogun as well. and a redditor named Ben wrote, I think most Eps was shot by Chris Ross and Sam McCurdy, both wonderful DPs. I haven't had a chance to watch yet, but I know that Chris has 50-millimeter techno vision, T1.4 anamorphic lens that he likes to use,

a special effects lens sometimes. So it might be that alongside the main set of Hawks, as mentioned. So I love that this cinematography subredited exists. I love that they're tracking the lenses that DPs are, I mean, of course, you would. It's your specialty. I wouldn't you know everything about it. Of course.

That seems to be the answers that perhaps they're using this anamorphic lens. And there's a couple of reasons to use it. To give it a sort of like a vintage sort of tint type kind of look is one reason to do it. Another is that it can be forgiving on digital effects sometimes or sets that you might want to hide the edges of or something like that. Speaking of Dune 2, and I promise I won't. raise it the entire podcast, but... You don't have to make that promise. We can just make this a Doon Toot if you like.

No spoilers for Doon 2, but one of the most dazzling sequences, which you've seen in the trailer, if you haven't seen the movie, is shot in black and white. And one of the benefits of that, other than it being sort of just like a really cool world-building visual feast, is it makes the obviously

digital crowd look not so blatantly digital. And there's a lot of digital content in this particular episode. Once again, we're looking at like horizons behind ships and also overhead shots of the castle as they're escaping. A lot of those are like very obviously digital. In contrast to some of the like very practical, beautiful set design work we've talked about or, you know, when they're filming on real cliff sides or smaller or villages and stuff like that as they were in the first two episodes. What, I mean, I know I said I was going to start with character, but let's pretend Osaka is its own character, as they say.

How did the digital effects in this episode work for you? I know we had some question marks about it in one and two. I clocked them a little more this time. And sometimes it was contrast between the narrative or the dialogue and the digital effects. For example, you get Blackthorne and Mariko talk. You know, he comes to her with this great open. How about this weather, huh? You know, this is so great.

Right. You know, love a little sunshine. Yeah. And then within moments, it is a conveniently very foggy ocean day. Yeah. In a way, I understand, practically speaking, but you can tell when the deep fog rolls in, maybe there's some effects we're trying to paper over in terms of that horizon line. He was like, I'll never get tired of this weather.

And I was like, the fog? And I was like, Rob and Kai and I, as Bari residents, can tell you the fog. You can get over the fog pretty quickly, actually, if you live in it. So there we go. Okay, so let's start with, I want to start with Tornaga, because this is his big gamut, right? Getting out of Osaka, you know, disguising himself as his wife to smuggle himself out in the litter, and everything that happens afterwards, hopping from one ship to another.

What do you feel like you most understand about his character at the end of all of this? I think we're learning that everything is a play. and you get some nice interchange between him and Ishido in particular to two characters who clearly know each other so well enough to attempt to be one and two and three moves ahead of one another to varying effect. But even as we progress through this, as we get every interaction that Tornaga has with somebody,

I'm seeing through the lens of, okay, how is he moving them around the board? How is he playing them to his advantage? He clearly understands Yabushige completely. He sees right through him, in the opening scene of this episode, as they have this kind of meeting at sunrise over what has happened with this assassination attempt.

Right. And Tornaga is under no pretense that he has Yabushika's full allegiance, but it's about what kind of offer can I make this ambitious person to get his allegiance right now for this one thing I need to do? And we see that carry on all throughout the episode all the way to the end,

where he bestows Blackthorn with this prestigious honor and title, not because I'm sure he sees some bad, value in him and some use in him. But really, it's, you know, I'm going to bring you into my party for now. I'm going to harness what knowledge you have, what equipment your ship has brought with you. And I'm going to keep these logs in my back pocket just in case I ever need to tell everyone you're a pirate. I love the look on his face when he's like, it will take a while to translate these, just like an all-time, infused with so many layers of meaning. I mean, you know how things are these days. Everyone's short-staffed, the backlogs. There's a lot of administrative

of stuff to go through. AI cannot be relied upon to translate. Absolutely not. Anyway, I think the most telling line, I agree with you completely. Especially if you consider the title of this episode, Tomorrow is Tomorrow, Right? So it's like, Yabushige is his ally today. Yes. Tomorrow is tomorrow.

We'll see what tomorrow brings. But today, you're with me, and I understand that that may not endure. And it's interesting because going back through these chapters in the book as I was, I was struck by this one sequence where Blackthorn is sort of ruminating over the advice he got about how to deal with all of these people in Osaka. And Father Domingo, the man he meets in prison in the previous episode, tells him in the book, like, loyalty is their only currency. And he's like, I'm not sure that's true. I'm not sure you're right about that. And I think what's interesting, the most telling thing that Toranauga says is to his son, when his son says, why am I so unworthy of your trust?

And he says, when will you understand? You're playing a game of friends and enemies when you only have yourself in this life. Right. So that's his perspective. Like, who can I trust right now? I mean, I think there are a few exceptions for Tornaga. I would say his wife might be one. and Hiramatsu might be one,

but I don't know how far it extends beyond that. It's a pretty tight-knit circle. I thought that quote in particular was such a nice counterpoint to Mariko's description of Torinaga, right? She has this speech that she gives to Blackthorn about how he's famous for his trickery.

And from the time he was six years old, his father had put him in this position as a hostage. But the quote that jumped out to me is he learned one truth, that enemies are everywhere and friends nowhere. And that to me is almost the opposite of what Toranauga is telling his son. It's like it's not about friends and enemies. It's not about characterizing them in those terms.

It's about you and what control you have and what moves you can make. The friends and enemies are going to do their own thing. And you almost can't rely on them to do any more than I guess you're a Matsu can or I guess a very select group of characters, really. I think that's, yeah. Like you're playing a game of friends and enemies, but that's not the game. That's not the game at hand. It's not about that. I think that stands in such sharp contrast to the main thing we learn about Blackthorn in this episode,

which is the two things that allow him to survive the departure in the harbor is the loyalty of the men who he saved in the storm in a previous episode, and the fact that Rodriguez feels like he owes him a life dead. And so these are two, I mean, like the men he saved on the boat, he was really also just trying to save himself. So that wasn't really like necessarily like let me make a future alliance. But as he says to Mariko as they encountered them at the harbor, he's like, oh, you thought I was friendless in this world? Look, I got some friends. I may not be able to speak their language effectively to them, but we have this camaraderie

that that can work. And then Rodriguez, we had been asking in a previous episode, like why we thought Blackthorn saved him, like what it was about Blackthorn that. And I guess the surface level answer is so that Rodriguez could save him. in this incident. But I think more profoundly, I like this idea of casting Tarnaga as this like very stubborn individualist and casting Blackthorn as someone who grew up with the concept of a crew. And seeing how those two worldviews might clash, might change each other, might soften each other, might harden, you know, like whatever it is. I feel like this episode is trying to

put those two ideologies in opposition. What do you think? Even the fact that when he's finally kind of given Toranaga's graces at the end, his first ask is, can we get my crew out? Right. Which for someone in his position who's been imperiled

at every step of the way, I think is a pretty commendable thing and an interesting thing for that character. And the way he's gotten to that point is by saving other people's lives. As you mentioned, the crew who are willing to just basically sail to their probable death. Into the rocks for him.

incredibly strong bond formed very quickly, but I guess a lot can be communicated through yells and stumps from on top of a ship. Whatever he did, he won them over very quickly. But he's also found ways to make himself useful to Tornaga and everyone else. He's, if nothing else, like clumsily swinging around a spear to help defend people. He's trying to usher women to safety from the party when they're attacked. He knows the crew of the ship and he's able to get their services on board.

He's the one who spots the fishing boats. he suggests the black ship as the way out. Yes. So you can see the ways in which he is strategically useful, maybe to a point of overstating his actual abilities, because as we circle around to, he's not someone who actually knows tactics or weapons. He's really just a ship pilot,

but he's proving himself to be useful enough in a pinch that he at least has something to offer Torinaga. He's not like a train strategist, but he obviously has like a knack for strategy. And the fact that like he and Mariko are so, quick on their feet to hide Torinaga when he's hidden in the litter. And so it just means that they're all sort of of of a piece that they can navigate not just a sort of a brutal fight with weapons, but the fight of the mind, the fight of, you know, how do we think our way out of this corner, you know, and the antics that he puts on to distract, which was hilarious and great, great stuff by Arca Cosmo. You know, and Mariko playing along, like all of that. makes us think that these are all people who are, you know, kindred spirits in a way in terms of how they think about

strategy. Yeah, I don't usually do this, Joe, but I was reading some of the reviews for this podcast. And this one really grabbed me from a listener named Jay Blackthorn. The review is, it's not proper, worse than that, it's vulgar, an unholy perversion, my God, the shame of it. Five stars. I've heard worse. I've heard worse, honestly. It's so funny. I had a real moment because you actually famously don't read reviews.

And I was like, oh, no, if we broke and Rob, and then it was just a great bit. The other most telling thing about Blackthorn, I think, of this episode, is when he busts out a rendition of brandy and tells Mariko that his wife is love and his lady is the sea. Dude, he's a foul-mouthed sailor talking about mother's asses with Rodriguez, but put him in a conversation with a single woman. And my dude is just spewing poetry. It's not the deepest the horizon, Rob. You know, it's all about the horizon. But yeah, I mean, and this is very in line with some things that Blackthorn says in the book about sort of this idea. If he starts to, like, if you spend as much time as he has at sea, and it's not just, this isn't his first voyage.

Like, he's a sailor. You start to think of your family as like a story you tell yourself. They're not really, really. You don't see them day to day. They're just like something back home that you are theoretically providing for, but are as real to you as. the ocean is because the ocean, again, your life, your love and your lady is the sea. Like that is the person,

that is the thing that you spend time with. But I think to go back, we love an episode title with multiple meanings. If you're thinking about the horizon, not the deep, then you're thinking about tomorrow. Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow.

Because I think for him, it's not about what's there so much as pursuing it. It's about heading to the horizon more than it is getting there. To me, that's kind of what he, and Marca are bonding over as much as anything in this episode. You know, Marco, clearly someone who has had a tragic past, maybe even a tragic present,

given Buntaro's fate in this episode, although I'm going to say allegedly. Nobody, no crime, Rob. Nobody, no one dies off screen except Stannis Barathean. I'm going to believe that when I see it. But I mean, I want to get into that scene later with Buntar. I thought that was a great sequence. But clearly, they have a sense of just like everything being about today. everything is about this moment in time.

And I think their kind of fast friendship and their fast connection in this episode is rooted as much in that kind of idea as anything else. That's so interesting. I don't know that I agree, and I'm not basing that on any book knowledge at all. I'm just trying to like,

if I kind of feel like if you have your eye on the horizon, you're not focusing on the now. You're thinking about a prospective future. And that's what, I mean, I'm willing to consider your interpretation because I think it's very smart. I appreciate it. And I will way back in next week to see if I've changed my mind about it.

But I think that something that a lot of, I will say that, something you get a lot of in the book are characters saying, if I do this, then nine steps down the road, you know, that's going to be my victory. Like Blackthorne at one point in these chapters that we're covering here is like, if I do this and I get this and I get my crew back and we can do this and blah, blah, and I'll go home and then the queen will knight me and I will become a knight. like that's that's what's going to happen for me. Or Yabashige is like if I do this and I do that and I steal this ship and I betray this person,

then I'm going to be on the region's council. No, I'm not just going to be on the region's council. I'm going to be leading the region's council. I'm going to kill Ishido. I want to be in charge of Osaka in the air. Maybe, you know, like they're all sort of just spinning and spinning and spinning out plans within plans to quote dude too again. You're really spice-pilled today.

I really have. So I saw it again last night. So I think that, I don't know. I think that idea of, again, it's in contrast to Tornaga, who doesn't, like, he is thinking about plans. He's got schemes and plots, but, like, he's not letting it run away with him because he's just constantly zinging, where does he have to zing and where does he have to zag? And that's what he's going to do. His network of plans is almost too broad to get ahead of itself. Because there have to be so many contingencies. There have to be so many options in case this

one thing doesn't work. This one piece falls out. If, you know, Yabushige's allegiance, his turn, then the plan has to completely change. So he has, in a lot of ways, the burden, but also the luxury of being one of the most powerful people in this space. So he does have a lot of options afforded to him, but with that, it makes it much harder to rely on any one outcome to actually be satisfying.

In terms of satisfaction, I will say this. This sequence, the escape from Osaka and the escape from the harbor, takes place over so many chapters in this very long. book. And a lot of what we're missing are character beats in between moments of conversation, moments of reprieve from the action to sort of dig a little deeper into our characters. And so I always love those interstitial moments almost more than the fight. And so I will say, I think because they're trying to do this entire massive book in one season, we of course are going

to lose some of that depth. And this is an episode that really tipped the balance towards Go, go, go, go, rather than like some of the beats we got in the previous two episodes. So I don't think that's a problem necessarily for an episode three. It's only a problem if it's the only way that they adopt the book, but I haven't watched ahead and I have no reason to expect that is how they're going to do it. In addition to those conversations, the main thing that I missed from the book is that Toranauga, when he decides to escape and the guise of his wife, fully commits and does the wig and the makeup too. So that's a look I would have loved to have seen.

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inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zep bound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9 or visit zepbound.lily.com. What else do you feel like you understand about Mariko in this episode, either through how she talks about her son, through Bontaro, how she reacts to her husband, very likely going? I don't know that she knows the rules of television

that if you don't see him die on screen, he's not necessarily dead. She seems fairly unfazed. How do you feel about her characterization? Yeah, in that moment, she seems struck by the fact that he's dying or potentially dying. Yeah.

But, I mean, the relationship seems pretty fraught. He seems quite cold. In every interaction we've seen specifically with Buntara and Mariko so far, he comes off as very abrasive, very cold. He already yelled at her, once for basically like speaking too casually to their son. You know, treating him like one of the girlies effectively was was not okay with him.

You choose out their son in this episode. Everything is just like so matter of fact between them. It doesn't really seem like there's a lot of warmth there. So you could understand why she might have complicated feelings about the idea of him dying or disappearing or just being kind of off the grid or off the map in this way. But she's, I think, learning to wield power in her own space, in her own time, especially with Toranaaga. you know, this was an episode where I was really struck by the power of the translators.

You have Father Alvido on one side and Marico on the other who have considerable sway in the way that they are representing things. And for Father Alvito, you know, he's someone who's very sophisticated at advance, probably like the most sophisticated translator that we've met so far. And his involvement with the church means that he has like the appearance of virtue whether or not he's actually being transparent or not. Marco's situation is different in that she's kind of figuring out how she feels about things, but learning that how she feels can impact what she translates and what she doesn't. I think in particular, when Blackthorne kind of hymns and haws at the offer of training a regiment,

she almost like nudges him to shut up more than anything and just like be thankful for this position. Like you don't need to tell them everything. Yeah. And her omissions, I think, are an expression of that power. I love that you feel like that comes through in the translation. I was, again, not to be like the book, the book every two seconds, but the moment in the book where she offers him, oh, you don't want a pillow with a woman. Should we get you a boy instead, right?

As you might imagine, in this book that was written many decades ago, there's a bit more gay panic off of Blackthorn when he's like, a boy, what do you mean? I mean, he comes in with a little gay panic. Yeah, yeah, I'm just saying it's more in the book. But I love this interaction because we get, we're all constantly slipping in and out of people's minds in the book, right? And so he's like, I'm sorry, what are you talking about? And then in her mind, she says, he's like, we don't do that. And then she says, she thinks, then you're all childish and foolish as well as vile, uncouth, and without manners.

But what can one expect from a barbarian? And then she says to him, of course, you're right. I meant no harm. Anjin Sama, please accept my apologies. Oh, yes. She sighed. Her voice so delicately honeyed that even her husband in one of his foul moves would have been soothed.

Oh, yes, it was my fault entirely. So, this is constantly, Mariko is being so subservient, so pliant, so pliant, so sweet. And we get her inner monologue and she's like, you're a pig. I hate you. I hate my husband. Everything's terrible. And I love that contrast. And I really love this performance in the show.

And I think I would love to see even more or feel even more of her interiority, which is so hard to do in a visual medium to take us inside the contrasting thoughts and speech of someone. But you're right that in translation, in deciding specifically how to translate or when to translate, that can reveal as much about the translator as anything else. That's a really good point. I'm still trying to figure out their exchanges to Mariko and Blackthorn, because there are times where it really does feel like Blackthorn is being way too familiar with Mariko. And on her part, it seems not entirely unwelcome, whether in this kind of flattering, manipulative way or in a way expressing like genuine curiosity and interest. She doesn't always check him.

Sometimes she does. And we do get Blackthorn referring to her as Marik Osama later in this episode. at specific points he's referring to her by title with honorifics. So it's notable, but they're still, like, they're talking about like pretty intimate and personal things for two people who don't really know each other,

who have been skeptical of each other. Like Mariko expressed her deep skepticism about Blackthorn in episodes one and two. And to go from that to this level of chit-chat, I thought it was a bit of a step. And maybe it is a step in a way that, to your point, expresses a certain maneuvering of the situation.

Maybe she's learning to play him. Maybe she's learning kind of what buttons to press with him as much as anything in a very soft control sort of way. But that is a hard thing to capture on screen. That is a hard thing to capture without intent in a way that can make it sometimes feel like these two people are just being a little overly familiar with each other. Yeah. My interpretation is that it is a combination of both.

I think there is the request from Torano. for her to study and learn more about Blackthorn, like, for him on his behalf, right? She is the vassal that Yabushige was talking about. Yes. Exactly right. And so there's that. She's got a job to do. But I think also, to your earlier point about Bumtaro, like, she's been married to someone

who is not necessarily, like, her intellectual equal or someone that she finds interesting to talk to. And so she has, like, her son. And like, but not, so to meet a man, whether or not she finds him attractive, but who is like someone who thinks like she does, like is quick on his feet, you know, is asking her about her son, is talking about his children. You know, I think there is something very compelling about that for her. So I think it's a blur of both it. He's, he's her mission, but also, you know, compelling. Yeah.

That's a Captain America in winter. soldier religion. Okay, so let's talk about Buntaro. We basically get the like Buckelberry Ferry Escape to Bucleberry Ferry moment down at the harbor and Buntaro has to fight off,

I don't know, 40 people seems like they do at one point do him the courtesy of waiting for him at the top of the stairs so that he can have an interaction with Toranaaga. But what did you want to say about this? What is this revealed to you? Well, there's, okay, there's

two things here that kind of segue into one another. I thought the moment in this episode where I was pulled most out of the flow of the action was we get where, as you're alluding to in the book, there might have been some interstitial personal connection, character moments between the party is in the forest and imperiled, and then all of a sudden they are across the city at the docks. It's like yada, yada, yada is through that so quickly. And we get this reference shot kind of zooming across to show us geographically where we've gone in a way that I think, at the way that I think.

clarity, it makes it help streamline like what's happening, but also shows us how much we missed. And so I, as soon as we kind of zoom to the docks, I'm like, wait, what happened in between here? I would love to see them sneaking through the city. But those feelings were quickly washed away because I'm a simple man, Joe.

And you give me a sacrifice and a bow and a swelling score. And I've got goosebumps. I found myself really moved by Buntaro's, we'll say, quote, unquote, last stand. But really the moment he has with Tornaug across the water, like that moment of recognition

before he goes back to work. And our guy is not in touch with his emotions, but goddamn, can he swing a sword? He is cutting guys down all episode long in a way that you understand the respect he commands in this space. You understand why a man like him would reach the stature that he would,

because he's clearly an expert swordsman and one who I'm, again, sure, we have not seen the last of. But I loved that sequence of him on the docks and him fighting his way back through the city. And I loved the overhead shot of all the Christian soldiers converging through the streets of Osaka and chasing after him. I thought that was a great way to kind of set the stakes of what was happening.

I also loved it. I love Taranaga sort of calling out to him. I thought that was a really good moment, again, while everyone is waiting patiently for him at the top of the stairs. But in the books in this moment, Buntaro attempts to commit Seppuku. I thought that's where we were headed. Yeah, he has ensured everyone's safety. And Blackthorn's like, you can make, we could, we should go back for him, right? That's, that's Blackthorns constantly like, we got to go back.

No man left behind. Who knows what I'm going to need a favor from Butaro? Like, let's save everyone. Why don't we? Dear God. And then Blackthorne tries way harder. Like he's throwing oars overboard. He's like, grab an oar.

Can't you swim? What are you doing? Mariko's like, he definitely can swim. But this is the more honorable thing to do is to take his own life on the dock here. And then Toronaga tells him to not. And then he goes off into the fight and question mark. We don't know. I kind of thought that might be why all the other guys were standing at the top of the stairs.

I kind of wondered if there was an acknowledgement of, we have you pinned, you're beaten. Yeah. This is your moment to, like, claim your honor. Like, someone who, regardless of the fact that they're across purposes as it regards to Blackthorn and whether he should be alive or dead, I imagine they respect Buntaro, too. And I wondered if that was why they kind of waited there. hesitation of him, ultimately probably committing suicide, though he chooses not to. I only want, like, I wonder if the decision to have him not attempt that is either, you know,

we sort of just saw this with Yabashige, like another Sepaku sort of interrupted. Maybe we don't want to do that so in close proximity. Or maybe it would seem kind of silly for Toranaaga to, like, yell all of that across the water. whereas like what he does instead, which is just like, you know, say his name is incredibly effective. Yeah. So yeah, I thought that was, you know,

I also love a last stand. Whether or not it is a true last stand, it doesn't much matter. It was dramatic. It was cool. And the fighting, you know, the hand-to-hand combat in this show is really good. We also got to see Mariko wield the,

I'm going to call it a spear. I'm sure it has a more specific name. Yeah, Naginata. I think is probably what she's wielding there. Thank you, Rob. Again, at this time, women were trained to fight. I'm going to go off what Clavel.

I'm going to take what he says is true, but please top knots of man buns at gmail.com if you feel like this is untrue. But the way that Mariko describes in the book is that women are all trained in knife play. They can all do, like, defend with their knives, you know, higherborn women, can all do this,

much as we saw, let's say, the assassin last week, just like an absolute killer with a knife. That she was trained with the sword and the spear was sort of like her father's desire for her. It's not like totally unheard of, but it is like ever so slightly unusual. But all women can fight,

but not all women can use the various weapons that Mariko knows that he used. And she was trained to do so. And yeah, she looks awesome. And it's great to see her and Blackthorn fighting side by side. Yes.

And in totally different ways. Blackthorn is using it like a big stick. Like the only way he really can know how. He's just swinging as best he can. Absolutely. Poor Fuji gets the remains of her husband and her son in corresponding sized boxes. Really tough. Very tough.

The small box. Jesus. Which is fundamentally unnecessary as far as I'm concerned. And is made to go to leave the city. and this is another adoptive change that I think is worth mentioning. There is, I think, in the show a softening of Torinaga, he is still, like, you know, extremely formidable, says the thing that he says to his son about Friends Anamies, you know, but there are things that he does in the book that I think would make him a harder person for audiences to necessarily root for. like he asks Fuji

to pillow with Blackthorn right she just lost her baby and her husband and he's like as Mariko describes you know for your health mental health or physical health one must pillow and he's like

Fuji do that and she does not want to and he loses it on her because she denies that and I just don't like I can see why that's not something they want to put in a show in 2024 for a character that were meant to be like, I will follow you into battle, sir.

What also kind of shifts the ground under us as we're figuring out what to make of Toranauga. Like, that's a very strong action to take very early in a story that's going to tilt us against him the whole way. So if you want any kind of ambiguity, making recent widows sleep with random barbarians is probably not the way to go about it. Yes, but diving lessons...

Oh, yeah. Sounds great. That's a good time. And I loved his, like, a diving robe that he was... wearing. Blackthorns out here and is like very plincy leg cloth. Oh, just a straight up jockstrap for that guy. Not much happening. I think that this version of Toranooga who is like durn, but not yet brutal. And also on the like tempo of this adaptation, what is wild to me is that we're almost all the way through the plot of part one of the books. But we're only in episode three of the show,

which means they're waiting a lot of stuff that happens in the back half heavier than they're waiting. They're like, we don't want to clear our throat. Let's just get to the action. Which I understand in this era of short attention spans and TV watchers, you want to get to the meat of the story quickly. But I was sort of surprised when I realized how far into the book we already are. I hear you about Tornaga being softened a little bit relative to the book, but I still think what he does here is pretty cold.

And I think it's reflected in Hiramatsu's conversation with her, where he talks about your husband and your baby, we're part of this greater fight, and now it's your turn. And you can hear, he's almost like pain to say that, not just because of what she's been through, but of what she's being asked to do now, which is basically be the front for a really dangerous ruse. Like, it's not a matter of if Torinaga is discovered

to be part of the convoy, but when. And when that moment comes, Lady Fuji is going to be in peril. Like, she's going to be in a really dangerous situation. So he's asking this woman who's just lost everything to also give up something for her lord now too potentially. And I also want to give a shout out to Mokohoshi who plays Lady Fuji, who I think is just mastered every way to look dismayed. Yes. She gets very little screen time and yet every time it's like a gut punch.

Yeah. And some of that is the circumstances we've been led into with episodes one and two. But I think that performance is just really, really sharp within like a very economical amount of time that we're actually spending with her. I completely agree. I also think Kiri makes a meal out of every moment that she has. Because when, so when Hiramatsu calls her out for the ruse, he calls her out and they have to just like make a big show of. He's like, where is she? And she's like, here I am.

She's like hilarious, genuinely as she walks out. And it's really only like a minute or two screen time, but it is unforgettable. Makes a big show saying goodbye when she's not leaving. leaving all of that and then the scurrying away. I just thought, I thought all of that was incredible. But, okay, so going from Hiramatsu, talking to Fuji, to then being this sort of envoy in front of the council. And again, I know that they were so precise in their studying of mannerisms, etiquette,

all of that sort of stuff. There was something so satisfying about the way that Hiramatsu sat down and then sort of like cleared his sleeves. Oh my gosh. What a move. It was such a power move. I loved it. He's got such a flair for the dramatic in there.

I love seeing Hiramatsu operate throughout this episode. Yeah. You know, earlier we get kind of the youth versus experience contrast of, you know, the young soldiers kind of puffing out their chest and specifically Torinaga's son, like, who's never seen a battle before. It's all like hard lines and escalations. And he's like very well-meaning but doesn't know what to do. And Hiramatsu was like always diffusing.

He's always coming in with a laugh. He's always like, trying to take tensions down. And here he knows exactly what part he has to play, which is come in with some pomp and circumstance, waving around papers, parliamentary procedure, motherfuckers. Let's go.

I mean, I suppose, so, oh, God, I forgot who it was. Is it a producer? Someone connected with Shogun gave an interview this week, and the headline was, like, maybe don't keep comparing our show to Game of Thrones. Perhaps Succession or House of Cards would be a better analogy. I'd say, why not?

all of them. Yeah. Because, you know, they all involve this sort of idea of courtly intrigue. Why not Borgon, I say? For sure. But I was thinking a lot of, like either House of Cards or West Wing or whatever you, you know, like here, here are the technicalities of our system here. This stalling tactic of you only have four regents, you all hate each other.

and now you all have to agree. Like the five regions in the first place were assigned by the Tyco. But now these four regions have to agree on a fifth. You know, each of them suspecting that the other one has that person in their pocket or, you know, are they Christian, are they not? You know, now we're a 50-50 split of Christian and not on the Regions Council. So that that's just going to, you know, tangle them up in red tape. forever, and Shido knows it. He knows he's absolutely frozen in his authority here.

He's about to blow a gasket at this revelation. And especially we've already seen him express frustration about being reduced to a bureaucrat. And now he's been both done and undone by protocol, right? Protocol is the guys with which he tries to enact his plan, inspecting the carriages, like trying to find Torinaga in the first place. It doesn't quite work out for him. but I think he played his moves pretty carefully and pretty wisely. He's, if anything, undone by Blackthorn being a complete agent of chaos

and screaming about and flailing. His improv skills, yeah. Yeah, seem to work in that moment. But otherwise, well played, I think, by Ishto for the most part. And here that same sort of protocol is his undoing and really creates this huge problem for him, which is the only thing, as you alluded to, bringing these other four regents together,

was wanting to box out Torinaga. and now that he is taking himself off the board, how do you make sense of any of this if you're the other four regions? And it allows Toranaaga to make all kinds of moves that he couldn't make if he were still on the council. Totally. Yeah, brilliant move from our guy, Toranauga.

And again, if you're going to send someone, please send Hiramatsu so he can flap his sleeves about as he does it dramatically. What do you want to say? Anything you want to say about Ferreira, who is the captain of the black ship, or, you know, or the members of the church who are involved in this episode. Yeah, I'm a little confused by the captain specifically.

You know, you get his role in this. He wants to sail. We understand that his allegiances are to the crown and not to the church. Like, he's driven by profit, driven by his job. He's trying to get out of the harbor. Why is it that when push comes to shove in the negotiations with Torinaga, why is it important to him that Blackthorn be left behind? That was one thing I was left with in this episode.

I get why the church wants Blackthorne executed effectively, not only for just his religious beliefs, but his actions in terms of pillaging these villages and making their lives difficult. Why does the captain care about Blackthorn? Well, could we see it as him acting on behalf of the church who he's sort of in league with? And it's this idea of like, we're not executing him,

but we're as good as if we leave him behind, on this ship. Could be. He's as good as dead. And again, I hate to be a broken record of in the book, in the book, but it's much more complicated where he comes on board with them. And then essentially Rodriguez kind of invents an excuse to physically throw him overboard to kind of save him.

And then he, you know, winds up back on his ship and then races Rodriguez and all, you know, and they're like, crush him, crush him, crush him. And Rodriguez is like, oh, I'm trying. I don't know. That was straight, fast and furious core, if I've ever seen it, on the high seas. Like, down to the fact that Rodriguez and Blackthorne are steering their ships and having a full-ass conversation across the high seas. They're like locking eyes, like one letting the other win. Look, it's reading very Dom and Brian to me.

That's all I'm going to say. Family, you know. That's what's all about. One not at a time. Live life, one not at a time, something like that. Anyway, yeah. And then the church, I mean, I don't know. I think it's all fairly straightforward what's going on here.

The church, building the church in Edo as this sort of massive move, this massive concession from Tornaaga, this idea that they have where they're like, cool, we get that no matter if he lives or dies. They would never accept a bribe, though. But to suggest something prayerfully. Prayerfully. That's my favorite thing. Prayerfully. I wrote it in all caps, prayerfully. But all of this, like all of these players to me, the captain, the church, Torinaga,

this whole conversation reinforced Blackthorn's place in the story at this point, which is he is a pawn. He is a piece to be bandied around no different than the silver or the church. Like Toranaga wants to know what he knows. The Catholics want him dead. But he's like a piece to be bartered. And maybe the transition by the end of this episode in terms of the title he's bestowed and being put in a position to train soldiers,

maybe that's a transition to being an actual person more so than just like a piece on the board right now. Yeah, and this idea of like, can he form a relationship with Tornaga that is anything other than strategic? Can he use his ability to win friends and influence people, which we've already seen him do? Will that work ever on Tornaga

or will he only ever be, you know, a piece on the board for him? There's a lot of time on the high seas. I like to imagine Blackthorn just crushing self-help books just ripping through. I feel like he's more of an audiobook guy, but we'll see. The diving sequence, again, this is in the book

except he's like teaching everyone how to dive and Mariko is doing it nude and he gets quite excited about that. So, you know, I guess they just decided to boil it down and make it a little safer for FX on Hulu, I suppose. James Clavel.

Jeez. Yeah. It's like Mariko and nothing but a crucifix and he's like helping her with her form. It's a whole thing. But this idea of they don't know how to dive. They know how to swim. They don't know how to dive. They only ever jump in. And so this idea, the book makes much of this idea of what it means to dive versus what it means to jump. The dive is sort of like, again, it's like where is your head facing? If you're jumping, your feet are going in first. Your head is just sort of like staying above. But if you're diving in, you're going in, hopefully. if you don't fuck up, hands first, head, and then head and then body. Tornaugas first attempt in the book is a massive belly flop, and I feel like it was wise for them to not make hair and hear your piece of not to do that.

He kind of split the difference, though. I wouldn't say he got full, the proper diving angle, but maybe that was the get up he was wearing. It's not a lot of flexibility there. It's true. But yeah, that idea of like you're almost, it's midway between control and surrender. I don't know, this idea of like, if you just,

jump in, you're surrendering entirely to just sort of, you know, whatever gravity decides to do. But if you're diving and you're attempting to have some control over it, while also I think making an maybe even more conscious decision to surrender something because you have to do it with your eyes on the prize of the like, you know, the surface of the water rising up to meet you. I think that's a very interesting thing to think about in terms of all of these characters and the idea of control, the idea of surrender, the idea of like preparation. Just as far as the diving scene goes, I actually really love this sequence, I think in part because I was a little mystified by it, like the repetitive nature of Toranauga wanting

him to dive over and over and over. I think there's an instructive quality to that, as you mentioned, like he's someone who's literally trying to learn this thing. Yeah. There's also like a matter of hierarchy there of like, you're going to come up here and you're going to do it again and you're going to do it again. And I'm going to tell you when you're able to stop. and I think that measure of control is important,

like an important demonstration. And then there's also like testing Blackthorn a bit in that way. And there's also this kind of exchange that Mariko has with them at the end about letting the idea of letting Toranauga win. And I think that's a different kind of test. And we don't really see the result of that race at all. But I like this idea of, you know, him being an observational learner, as Blackthorn says,

but also there being like a power dynamic element within that. And certainly an expression of something that Toranaug is after throughout this episode, whether it's the Blackthoranaga's after, whether it's the black ship, whether it's the weapons, whether it's these like foreign tactics, or in this case, a skill that he doesn't have that this European guy does, these are like the little advantages he's trying to accrue as he goes up against, like, pretty significant odds on the other side,

whether the four other regions are aligned or not, or even if it's just like two and two, or even if it's just him versus Ashita, he's having to retrain soldiers to kind of start fresh at this point. Yeah. And so every little advantage he can pick up along the way is pretty significant for him. I think that at one point in this scene when I first read it, I was like, is he just trying to get him to bathe in his own way?

Like, is he trying to get him to wash his body aggressively? You smell so bad that the beach smell. Yeah. The pure salt water odor is much preferable to whatever Blackthorns got going on musk-wise. He doesn't necessarily have the fish guts on him anymore, but like it's still, it's been a few days. Yawishige before we go, our guy. What do you want to say about him other than the last? he looks like an absolute king in his armor.

Oh my gosh. Crushing it every opportunity. Also, I thought had the line of the episode, the one of these days I'd like to know about your plan before it happens. Yeah, yeah. I thought it was a great exchange. You know, Yabashige didn't really have a lot of plot to move in this episode. He wasn't given a lot to do other than cut down some guys,

lead this traveling party, you know, answer to border patrol a little bit. You know, he's got to make sure his papers are in order, but other than that, he wasn't really doing a lot. But he was doing a lot with his face. I thought the reaction shots we were getting from Yabushige were very telling in this episode. And also this little kind of grace note we get with him amending his will.

I really loved. For one, the opening scene we get of him writing the will and changing it, yet another case where I think Shogun is just like a masterclass of naturalistic lighting. All of the candlelit scenes, all of like the morning hours, they look so beautiful.

I agree. And that you get this sort of character element dovetailed into that of him making sure his affairs are in order before meeting with Toranauga, going to meet with Toranauga, and I would say overrepresenting what he's been promised. Ishido has not told him

he can be on the council, but boy, doesn't it sound better if he did. And boy, doesn't it make this one little province? What is that by comparison? It's just a little concession. I just want to extend my fief a little bit. Just a tiny, tiny bit, cute little province,

cute little addition. Yeah. wouldn't hurt anybody. And so his ability to always be negotiating, even when he thinks he might be on the brink of death by the fact that he literally amended his will, and be satisfied with that to the point that when he does go basically out on expedition

with this traveling party, he rips up that will. And he's now kind of at peace with what the latest offer is to him, is how I read that. And so we're always going to be judging like where the wind is blowing with Yabu, I imagine, whether it's, you know,

we've seen him torn between Ishido and Toranaaga so far, I would say anyone with sufficient pocketbooks or influence or power could probably make him a sweet offer. He's open. He's very open to confidence. He's taking calls at this moment in time. Those feather shrugs don't buy themselves, Rob. You know what I mean? He certainly do not.

You got to keep the silver flowing. One of my favorite touches in that opening will writing moment, the line is like, it's a good will our best yet. How many wills is Yavishigay written? The notary public in Osaka is eating well. All right, well, I think we kind of did it. I mean, we've got a society of assassin, society of the amuda, which we didn't really talk about, but like, sounds spooky and expensive. Great. Well, this town is just lousy with assassins as we found.

Also, did we spend time last week talking about the opening credit sequence? No, I don't think we did. I don't think we did. I just think it's beautiful and phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. Very into it. And very into, you know, the idea of a ship's path through the ocean,

kind of winding its way along like a Zen Garden spiral coil. Yeah. Very evocative. Like, I'm into everything that's being displayed there. I'm into the score of this show and that opening theme in particular. It's, I know it might not be for everybody. It's a little kind of out of time in terms of like, you know, period representation as we're used to seeing it. Yeah.

But this very, like, modern take on that sort of score. I think underscores like under like kind of really underlines the action effectively. You can't say underscores. I can't say underscores after I'm just saying. I'm trying to be mindful. I'm trying to be a professional here, Joe. I swear you. But it's working for me, I think is the overwhelming take.

Last and at least, I guess, just like a tiny definition. You mentioned this honorific that Blackthorn gets from Tornaga, Hata Moto, which is he's a very great honor. his vassal, he's under his complete protection. That might have been my favorite Yabushige reaction shot. This fucking guy, like, look that he gives Tornaga as the words come out of his mouth. So there we are, episode three, Ashogun.

Thank you so much, everyone who wrote into us, especially if you wrote me a book-link email about the distinction between the Portuguese and Spanish Empire at this moment in history. Thank you. Did you get a couple of those? I got a few of them. Yeah, I might have.

Do you think, I love Top Knots and Manbuns at Gmail.com. I encourage everyone to email there. Do you think we miss the boat on slatterns and trollop at Gmail.com? Regrets, I have a few, and that might be one of them. Your tail looks like it belongs on a pony at Gmail.com, something like that. A lot of candidates. Thanks as always to the great Kai Grady for his work on this episode. We'll be back next week with episode four.

Yeah, I'm pleased to send us your emails and thoughts. curious people are watching the show if they're liking it. I don't have like as much of a sense as I usually do when we're covering a show. Again, I think to your point, because it's an FX on Hulu show, I mean, it's an FX show that is streaming on Hulu as well. And I think when things stream on Hulu, often people watch them sort of at their own speed. So I'm just curious where people are if they're enjoying it. I'm almost reticent to even say this, but we did find out from a listener that there is an English dub that exists on Hulu of this show.

I beg of you to not watch it, but if that's the only way you're going to watch it, perhaps. Also, what other listeners... No, not perhaps. Okay, don't do it. Prayerfully don't. With all due respect to the people who did that dub, we cannot support it.

And also, one of our listeners suggested, I've never tried this, but I thought it was fascinating. There's audio description, an audio description track that you can put on that one of our listeners mentioned was helpful for them with subtitled content. Because if you look away, like you're not entirely missing what's going on. I know people have done that all the time to like discover tiny details and Easter eggs of

the kinds of shows that we pour over with a fine tooth comb. I've never heard of someone using it to help them understand subtitles content. But whatever it takes, except for dubs according to Rob, that is what you should do. to enjoy a showgun. We hope you will come back and listen to us. Talk about it. Thanks to Rob Mooney. Thanks to the Desert Planet Aracas.

And thanks to Kai Krikan. And we'll be here next week. Bye.