The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Episode 4 Recap

Episode Date: March 12, 2024

Jo and Rob return to break down the fourth episode of ‘Shogun.’ They discuss the quiet brilliance of the moments between the action and conversations, the concept of the Eightfold Fence, and Fuji's much more prominent role in the story. Along the way, they talk about how Omi manipulated Toranaga’s failson, Nagakado, to make a significant mistake. Later, they highlight why the gory visuals from the end of the episode were compelling. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey. Hey. Hey. Can I talk to you guys for a second? Sure. Over 25 years ago, on September 29, 1998, we watched a brainy girl with curly hair drop everything to follow a guy

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I'm Joanna Robinson joining me today. Oh gosh, somewhere behind an eightfold fence. It's Rob Mahoney. Hi, Rob. How are you? There's so many folds. I can't even find my way out at this point. Yeah.

I thought we were close enough that we could be like a fourfold fence, but you're all the way behind the eightfold fence. but we will do our best on the show today, talk to you about episode four of Shogun. An episode we really, really enjoyed. Great episode of television. So I'm really excited to talk about that. Spoiler warning, we're talking Shogun up through episode four. That's all we've seen.

That's all we're talking about. I've read a bit beyond in the book, but we're not really going to go forward looking in the book. I only have a little bit of book analysis this week, a little less than last week. And also, we got a ton of emails this week. Thank you guys so much. Top Nots and Man Buns. email.com is, of course, where you can reach us. Top knots and man buns at dmell.com.

I do apologize. We got one email from a listener who was like, that's a really tough one for non-English speakers. So I will think about our international audience next time we pick one. I do apologize. But top knots and man buns at gmail.com was hop in this week. So we do have a couple of emails. I want to start with this one.

Actually, before we get into everything, I want to call our beloved producer Kai Grady onto the mic to weigh on this because you're an NBA guy. you're not an NFL guy, Rob, right? Is that fair to say? Basically zero NFL knowledge. So we're going to have to lean on Kai a little bit. As I understand for an NFL-centric question. Ish.

Okay, we've been getting a lot of emails about the actresses playing Blackthorn, Cosma Jarvis. As we've mentioned, as many people have mentioned, there's like the Tom Hardy connection. You know, there's like a lot of people, someone was like, oh, he sounds like Richard Burton. Like, there's a lot of stuff going on in the mix here. But I kind of want you to weigh in on this because I have no informed opinion. Of course. Jamie wrote in to say, my husband says Cosmo Jarvis looks like Kirk Cousins, and now I can't unsee it. Kai Grady, will you tell our listeners who Kirk Cousins is and whether or not you agree with this assessment?

I'd be more than happy to. Just overjoyed to talk about Kirk Cousins today. Thanks, Kai. First of all, I don't see it at all, I will say, but no, absolutely not. Okay, so we don't see it. None of us really see it. I see like slight beard connections, maybe. I see a guy with a beard. is as far as I'm going on this. Yeah, two white guys with beards. Kai, is there any sort of like temperamental connection you can draw between the two?

Anything else? I would say flimsy at best. Also, Kirk Cousins just in case you're not too sure, is a quarterback in the National Football League. He was on the Vikings for many years, but just signed a massive deal. So this is great. Like, great newspeg for Kirk Cousins right now. Like he's in the news. Just signed a four-year $180 million contract with the Atlanta Falcons.

So big money for him. But no, temperamental, no. Kirk's known as like a pretty chill laid back, you know, fun kind of quarterback. So I don't know. I don't really see the John Blackthorn comp. I wouldn't call Blackthorne fun in any instance. He's kind of intense no matter what. Relaxing in a hot tub, intense. Like, you know, it's just like he's an intense guy. So it's also a little mopey this week. I was going to say he's like the kind of antithesis of John Blackthorne in a lot of ways. Okay, before I let you go, Kai, thank you so much for your insight.

Is there an NFL quarterback that does have the temperament of a John Blackthorn? Blackthorn energy. Let me think on it and I will get back to you. Maybe by the end of this pod, maybe next week. That's a great question. I'll have to consider it. If I remember, I will ask you at the end of the podcast. That's great.

We'll talk about it next week. Thanks, guys. I wasn't prepared for the NFL Shogun crossover event. Listen, the ringer is what the ringer is. Yeah, no. That is what we're here for. It's what we do here. All right.

So this episode of The Eightfold Fence was written by Nigel Williams and Emily Ishida. Emily Ishida, for folks who don't know, if you're a blank check podcast fan, Mother Blankies, is her name over there. Also, the co-host of the Girls in Hoodies podcast, a Grantland joint. So she has, we have some very tenuous connections. I can't help but feel very proud of her, even though. my connector is quite tenuous, but I love this episode, and I was so excited to see her as accredited writer on it. And then Frederick I-Otoye, who is the director, I feel like I always say his name incorrectly because it's very German, and I get it wrong. But he has directed some of my favorite

Westworld episodes. Like, his is a name that I was really excited to see in the director roster this season. He's been around a long time. He's done a lot of fringe alias. He was, like, a network guy and then he's like gotten into some more prestigious cable stuff. He did a watchman episode. So he's like, he's the goods. And so you put Nigel, Emily on writing and

Fred on directing and you get a banger episode of Shogun. Plus a lot of the really good stuff is direct, like pretty closely direct lifted from the text. And so something we were talking about last week, I want to ask

about this, Rob. Like, something you were talking about last week is it was like a lot of go, go, go, a lot of action. Yeah. And at the expense, we felt a bit of like some of the conversations we would like to see. This is a much more conversational episode. So do you feel like, is that a reason why this episode might have worked even better for you? Or how do you feel better at Rob?

Well, we got both. Yeah. We get all the conversations and we get cannons turning samurai into slushy. So why not have both, would be my general proposition. But I would say there's a third category there. that really sung in this episode. And it was all of these little quiet moments of framing between the scheming and the cannon fire

and the romance, right? We get like the droplets of melting ice off the rooftops. We get the way the sun is hitting plants in the morning and the rocks in the garden at night. And it really called to mind for me this Japanese concept of Ma, which is like the space between things. And I've always in particular loved the way

that Hayao Miyazaki described it. And that's two-time Academy. award winner, Hayao Miyazaki after this weekend. And this is what he had to say about it. This is a quote, I turn too often. We have a word for that in Japanese. It's called Ma. Emptiness. It's there intentionally. And this is where he claps. And he says, the time in between my clapping is Ma. If you just have nonstop action with no breathing space at all, it's just busyness. But if you take a moment, then the tension building in the film can grow into a wider dimension. And I think this episode does something really playful

with that idea, which is not only do you get all these moments, but you get Blackthorn kind of inserting himself into them. Like he can't help but wander out into the garden, like muttering to himself to the point that at the beginning of the episode, he is inserting himself into those scenes. He's intruding upon all that negative space. And by the end, he's learned at least how to sit back and admire the falling rain a little bit.

He's still going to break the silence with small talk, but he's not intruding in quite the same way. I love that. Okay, first of all, I love that Miyazaki quote. I love that you brought the concept of Ma up. That's amazing. I love that you got your Oscar take in. You just got to do it. Not all of us get to be on the big picture, Joe. So we got a, we got a shoehorned in. Trojan horse those takes. Anything else you want to say about the Oscars?

Rob Moni, while have you? Just Nicholas Cage. That's that is it. Period. End of sentence. It was our shared favorite moment of the Oscars. Oh my gosh. It wasn't just Nicholas Cage in isolation. It was Paul Giovanni. like smirking eyes aglow with delight at Nicholas Cage. This Cage was like mumbling nonsense. It was fantastic. The stopping to admire the rain has like a textual connection to the show, right?

Because let's go directly to the titular conversation, the eightfold fence concept, right? Mariko says, do you know the eightfold fence from the time we were small and is something we were taught to build within ourselves? an impenetrable wall behind which we can retreat whenever we need. You must train yourself to listen without hearing. For instance, you can listen to the sound of a blossom falling or the rocks growing. If you really listen, your present circumstance vanishes. Do not be fooled by our politeness, our bows, our maze of rituals. Beneath it all, we could be a great distance away, safe and alone.

And I love that because John throughout this episode and throughout this, series really, but like throughout the episode in a really convincing way is constantly like trying a word in Japanese, trying like trying and like someone will correct him or someone will teach him a little word or he's going to try the food in this episode. He is like sponging up the culture as best he can as he goes. And, you know, because they're covering the entire book in this 10 episode series, like by the end of the series, John is going to be wherever he is, and I think it's going to have to be

a convincing journey of, like, he didn't marry Sue his way into, like, instantly knowing so much about Japanese culture. We're watching him actively absorb, actively pick things up from the people around him. And so I think this concept of listen without hearing, listen to the sound of a blossom falling or the rocks growing, is something I think we see him trying to do

to a certain degree in that sequence when he's kneeling with the two women at the end of the episode. When you heard this eightfold fence speech, whether or not you clocked that it was the title of the episode, what did you think of it? Yeah, I think it's to your larger point about the way Blackthorn, he's learning all these customs, he's learning these words, right?

He's seeing the trees of this culture, and now he's starting to kind of see the forest of it. Like, what does this stoicism really mean? And the fact that we opened this episode, at least from Blackthorne's story and his perspective within it, with this basically misunderstanding of the position he's in. He's like dramatically overstated the level of influence and the level of freedom and made a lot of assumptions about what his conversation with Toranauga actually meant.

And so he's having to step back throughout this episode and say like, okay, what do these silences actually indicate? When Toranauga doesn't refute that I can have my ship and my crew back, that's not necessarily him agreeing to it. Right. And in the same way that when he's interacting with Mariko, and he's interacting with Fuji, he's learning a lot about

what the spaces between things actually mean in terms of conversation and in this culture and what his place in it can ultimately be because right now he's getting frustrated with that over the course of this episode, over kind of the golden handcuffed situation he finds himself in where he has this title,

he has this house, he has a consort, and yet he can't really do the things he wants to do. And it's going to be, I think, a long journey even from here to get to the point where he really had to grasp of what's going on. Oh, for sure. I mean, we're only four episodes in.

But the ways in which Mariko talks about the fences that they build around each other and sort of like the advantage that you can find behind that fence, hiding your true intention, keeping these thoughts to yourself, putting forth this placid surface. But then also the ways in which, you know, not to belabor a metaphor,

but the ways in which they're letting each other in behind their own fences. You're right, there's like a lot of, emotional proximity in addition to the physical proximity that we get at the end of the episode. But a physical proximity that Mariko kind of denies or at least pretends didn't happen outwardly socially. Right, exactly. We're going to keep that behind the fence. Yes. My guy, this is not free range. That's for the seventh fold. You know, not everyone gets to see back there. There you go. Yeah, and I think something, just tracking where we are

physically in the book. The sex between Blackthorn and Mariko is the closing moment of part one of Shogun. So this is just like the big like, oh, here we go. What's going to happen next? I thought the speech, the Afold Fence conversation and a number of conversations were quite beautiful in their language. And a lot of that language, as I said, is lifted directly from the book. But there is an added thing that Nigel and Emily and the other writers, this episode did, in sort of threading this metaphor from the fence to our houses burn easily and that's how we rebuild them, to the conversation about walking along the Thames, that it all feels connected in a way that is even more satisfying, I think, than what you get

in the book, which are sort of like isolated versions of this conversation. And I really like, the added metaphor of the house that is easily burnt, and so thus is easily rebuilt, is showing invented and I thought it was brilliant. That's beautiful. And I love the way that John then turns it on her and says it's not a ruin, right? That's just a house one worth honoring. I will say, as far

as that stuff goes, if you don't want a Game of Thrones comp for your show, maybe don't do big confessional hot spring scenes. Fair. I am. Yeah. I see what you're saying, but how can one resist? You know what I mean?

And Mariko clearly could. Like, she saw saw a Blackthorn one more time in his little jock, and she's like, all right, I'm on board. That's it for me. Okay. So in the show, he says, sir, you said your houses here are designed to be rebuilding quickly, as quickly as they're destroyed.

So if a house is ruined and rebuilt and ruined and rebuilt 50 times over, I see it. I fail to see it as ruins. I see only a house, and here I see much woman and one, like, worthy of honor. So what he's offering, I mean, this is just text, what he's offering Mariko here, Mariko is someone who, as we understand,

from the bits and pieces we've gotten, is someone who has had to live with a lot of shame. And I suppose it's there in her interaction with Buntaro that we got before they were separated slash perhaps he died. But this idea that she's lived with a husband who has sort of ground her into the dirt the entire, like her entire adult life.

And she has just been having to live with her head bowed this whole time, not just in like sort of this demure, placid demeanor, but just sort of like, because that's what people expect of her. It is not how Torinaga treats her, and it is not how Blackthorn treats her. And so for that to be irresistible to her,

I think is, you know, completely understandable. What did you make of that? Yeah, we, I mean, we get one of those classic, a character is talking about someone else, but really they're talking about themselves. Monologues from Marika,

when she's talking about Fuji's role as a consort. Yes. And the idea of, like, giving her a place, in this world. As much as anything, the combination of Toranauga's trust and Buntaro's apparent death, they put Mariko in a much greater position to navigate, to be like an emissary for Toronaga in some ways and a stand-in for him in this episode, but also to have a place in this story, a place in this world where she has a function beyond you are the woman who raises the children.

Right. I think that I really, really loved all the Mariko Blackthorn stuff. I think the hot springs what would you do if we were in London? What would our date be? Dinner and a show? Meet the queen. Meet the queen. Dinner and a show. Walk along the Thames.

Great. A dream date. Something that, again, I think is additive from the show is that, like, well, first of all, that what will we do if we were in London scene takes place while they're getting, like, jointly massaged naked. Mariko's naked a lot more in the book than she is in the show. Naked getting massage together. Like.

Jesus Christ. James. Like colleagues would do. James. And he says the thing, he talks a lot about Shakespeare. He's talking a lot to her about Shakespeare, but he doesn't say the thing about walking along the Thames,

so that's added in the show. The reason I bring that up is like when writers on a show adds something to a text that they are closely honoring to prose that they are directly lifting. So what does adding the like, and we walk along the Thames part, like mean to them? And, you know, when Mariko is sort of ruminating on it, Um, you know, she's, she's, he talks about it in a way that she talks about the fence,

which is just sort of like the freedom of isolation, the freedom of like your cares and woes sort of melting away and you just think about walking along the Thames and listening to the water and being present, um, but not worrying about all the other things that come with it. What was your interpretation of that? Yeah, that parallel was really striking. And especially like the cultural difference in those parallels, right? The idea of the fence as Merrico explains it, like you're putting it away. You're putting some distance between yourself and your concerns and your worries and your traumas

and you're focusing on this other thing to distract you. And I think what's appealing to her about this description of walking the river and having the night at the theater and having that sort of release is like she talks about it as a kind of freedom, that idea of not putting it behind the fence, but the way Blackthorns is is like those problems disappear. They're not just like out of sight, but they are evaporating. And the difference in those things for a character who is up front about the fact that she has suffered this incredible injustice that I'm sure we're going to learn more about as

the series unfolds, that's a tough thing to keep behind the folds of a fence. And I'm sure it's much more appealing the idea of just like being able to let go of something like that. What did you make of the flashback glimpse we got? Flashbacks can be controversial in film and television. vision. Do you like them in general? Do you like how it was deployed here? This is my preference. Glimpses, flashes. I want the suggestion of a thing more than I ever want to see the whole thing. And so I wouldn't blame them if at some point we get a cold open of an

episode and we see the whole story. It's understandable from a narrative standpoint why that stuff happens. But I kind of like hearing the characters tell it. I feel like that's always more interesting to me. I always love, I like a flashback where it's those like flashes of imagery that are triggered by something there currently. looking at. Like, that's my favorite technique. On the Mariko Blackthorn connection, something I think you and I have been sort of talking around, but I think one of our listeners sort of drew a line under it for me. Sorry, no pun intended. The listener's name is Drew. Drew Rodin, writing in to offer an additional take on your discussion of Mariko and Blackthorne's budding, friendship, romance,

strategic bonding. My first thought was that Mariko might feel free to talk to Blackthorne because no one around can understand them so she can be really honest. in a way that seems out of step with her culture. Mariko obviously has familiarity with a lot of the women in the Torinaga camp, like how she uses her emotional turmoil to help Fuji in episode one, but she also occupies a higher station. The power imbalance might make certain conversations improper. There's also the element that prior to Blackthorn being given the title by Tornaaga, Blackthorn could die whenever and doesn't speak Japanese, so he's a relatively safe person to confide in. So when Drew wrote that in before Episode 4 aired, that was sort of in reaction.

in episode three, but I like this idea of him being a sort of eightfold fence for her to like put all of her turmoil or her affection for her son or like whatever it is that she has sort of downloaded to him behind this fence of this language barrier. And this episode, even more so I think then, and you brought this up, I think, two weeks ago, but even more so than previous episodes really has a lot of fun with the translation. aspect of Mariko's role in translating what Blackthorn says to Omi or Yavu, etc. To Fuji in this week, too. There's some great little moments with that. One thing along those lines is, you know, they talked on the official podcast this week about this idea of a lack of

privacy in this world, right? The paper thin walls, the fact that, you know, Blackthorn, for example, is constantly surrounded by staff. He's being watched, like, seen to by Fuji, but in a way that he doesn't necessarily want. And so when I come back to the idea of, like, Margo and Blackthorn, like, are they bonding too quickly? Is there an acceleration here that makes sense, narratively speaking? One of the things that does track for me is that when they do shift into speaking Portuguese with each other, it's like their own little bubble and a kind of privacy that no other

character in this story basically has. Like, even the lords are constantly surrounded and attended to. Like, they don't really have privacy either. Yeah. And so the fact that everything can kind of surround them. in their own little universe and their own little dimension. And I think there's some fun exchanges that can happen with that, but there's an intimacy in that too.

A linguistic bubble. My take from this episode is that we're meant to feel a bit of a passage of time within this episode, right? Like, they're in the village for a bit of time. The question is how much? Because it does seem like Blackthorn chafes against the idea that he's supposed to be here for six months training soldiers initially. Yeah, I don't think it's like six months, but I think there's training montages.

Like, I think it's like a month. We get a cleaning montage up front. We get training montage. The opening montage of them like sweeping the steps and cleaning up the town was very like mama and dad are coming home after the party. Like let's get everything back in order in a way I very much enjoyed. But yeah, there's definitely some passage of time here. It's not like Buntaro died yesterday.

It's not like, you know, she saw him disappear on the dog. yesterday. It's been a month. She's still not, I think, yeah, we're still keeping it on the low that she hooked up with Blackthorn, but like in terms of it's not indecently fast, especially since she seemed to have hated her husband, right? So I also, I love the, the cleaning of the village of, as you know, for the arrival. But what I really love, it's like long passages of rumination of Omi being like, we got a said, Toranaga's coming, he went to set everything up.

Yeah. And then his wife is like, we got to spend all this money. We got to do all this shit. It's like a really long thing. Or his mom, I think, right? Oh, is his mom? I think that's his,

I think that is his widowed mother, I think. Okay. Distilled to the two sake sort of references of like, shouldn't have bought the cheap stuff. Shouldn't have bought the expensive stuff. You really got a Goldilocks this thing. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's just like economy of language around that.

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whose remarkable intelligence leads her to a life-changing discovery. Watch remarkably bright creatures with your remarkable moms this Mother's Day weekend, only on Netflix May 8th. Okay, so let's go back to Fuji. And her role as consort. Yeah. And I think her biggest moment, right, of course, is, well, there's, like, the gun moment in the yard. What was your take on that?

I mean, for one, Fuji is rapidly climbing my Shogun character power rankings this week. This is the first week she's given a lot to do. and is like she's taking a more active place in the story because she has this purpose. And now she has a proximity to Blackthorn and being in his house that just involves her in more scenes. And so I loved that one. I loved, you know, her, her standing her ground in that moment, her showing Blackthorn, like what their relationship is to each other. Because this is very much an arranged marriage. But it's, I mean, she is a, like a conference of a kind of legitimacy in a way.

And the whole thing around the guns where eventually Blackthorn gifts her one of those pistols, I mean, basically one of the only things he owns and something that he values very, very clearly and very dearly, that's a gesture. But her returning that gesture with her family's swords, because it wasn't just that Blackthorn needed a woman, he needed a wife whose family could legitimize him as Hatamoto. And part of that is the reciprocation of the gift with these swords. Like that is a, that is an offering of a legitimacy that really only someone like Fuji can give him. And so you start to understand, you know, we talked last week about whether the show is going to omit this idea that she needed to be a consort to Blackthorn, whether she was going to have to be sleeping with him, whether she was going to be in this position in the first place or whether that was going to be an adjustment to the story. We're seeing now what this version of it, like the shape that it takes.

And the shape that it takes is like she is a very important vehicle to getting him into this world in a more serious way in offering these swords and bringing him a measure of like honor and respectability. because now that's reflected on her too. And she's also helping him with his language, like, you know, just becoming part of Team Blackthorn, essentially. But not without side-dying him a little bit here. And they're like the nodding along at him like he's a toddler when he wants to talk about the rain. Yeah.

Elite stuff. Elite stuff. Or when he wants to eat, you know, the food that they're eating. Have you had nodding before? No, have you? It's not my thing. Respectfully. Funky cheese is somewhat accurate, I would say.

It's got like that nutty earthy thing, but I will say just one of the most deeply unpleasant textures of any food I've ever eaten. I was a little shock that he enjoyed it as much as he did. It's a very jarring thing. To the production designers credit, whoever made that concoction, like they really captured the slime. The slime, yeah. I don't want to describe it as slime, but I really don't know what else to call it. I mean, listen. I will try anything once

so I will definitely try it I'm not knocking and there's certain plenty of things that I didn't think I would enjoy that I have wound up enjoying but yeah that looks like a challenging that's a good word for it that's certainly the way that Mariko and Fuji thought of it for him in that moment

and Fuji like trying not to laugh as he eats it and squelches around with it you know another great Fuji moment in an episode full of them yeah what does Mariko say that's not for you Maybe not. That's what for you.

Yeah. Something, to go back to the linguistic conversation, we got a couple emails about like the kind of, specifically the kind of Japanese that they're using in this show. I listener Andy wrote in and he says, I'm pretty proficient in modern Japanese, but the actors here are using super authentic old Japanese

that the average US viewer may not pick up on from archaic grammatical forms and verb conjugations to different ways that people say I or you. It's kind of like hearing, characters speak Shakespeare in English in a Western period piece. So, thy or thine, etc. And what's interesting is that we also got it, we got a different email like a couple weeks ago from someone who was sort of taken aback by the scene between Toranauga and his son in the first episode, where they're like, the very informal and casual way that his son

is talking felt like out of step for them. And they were like, is this sloppy in its adaptation? is the manner of address here sloppy. But seeing what we see in this episode about that character, I would say that reads more intentional to me. So should we talk about Failson, Nagakato, who may have started a war in this episode. Really tough week for Nagakata. As soon as he sat down with Omi, I was like, oh, no.

It's over for you. He doesn't even know how far out of his depth he is. And there is something about, Even the way that Nagakato is costumed, it's like his clothes are a little too big for him in a way that makes him look like a kid playing dress-up. And that's certainly the way he acts over the course of this episode. I think his hair, too.

There's something about his hairstyle. He didn't have to do the tanger. Like, he didn't have to, like, shave his head. But, like, the ponytail is so bouncy. There's just something, like, unsurious. Just flouncing around out there. Yeah, just, like, quite unsurious about him. I loved this.

I love that, like, Omi and. and Yavishige are like just in an impossible position and this is their best way of wriggling out, right? It's a real again, apologies for the labored game of Thrones references, but just like

a, you know, this is like a little finger various move of like, you know, or Dune too, if you prefer plans than plans than plans. Like, you know what I mean? They're just sort of like, we can't do this but let's manipulate this dumb dumb. You know, this nepo baby.

It's really, so easy. Into taking care of this for us. I was just like absolutely delighted by this. And I think it really helped solidify that character for me, Nagakado, because like, you know, we meet him right at the beginning. We've interacted with him a bit. We could see him as this sort of like rearing to go, sort of brash young man.

But I don't think we have sort of fully crystallized around like just how ill-suited he is for this compared to his father. What do you think? But all of those breadcrums really paid off here of him being rearing to go. Even in episode one with the scene with the Falcon, that's what Toranaaga is trying to teach him, is the idea of concealing your intentions, of playing something close to the vest.

And I come back to, you know, Rodriguez has this monologue at the end of episode one about like, what kind of man wields a power in a land like this? Is it the one who screams out in the open? And in this episode, we literally see Nagakato flailing a sword around, screaming in the open, challenging people. Or as Rodriguez says, is it the one that you never see? And his fundamental misunderstanding of what his dad is trying to teach him in these first couple episodes, and I would assume up in his life up until this point, he's just not

absorbing those lessons fast enough. And it makes him an easy target for someone like Omi, who is given his station and given where he's coming from, like a very savvy operator. He understands how to make himself valuable and how to manipulate other people. And if anything, I really love that performance. in particular, like the difference in Omi when he's talking to Yabushige, for example, and there's a clear deference there.

There is, you can see it in his eyes where he's constantly searching, and you can feel the gears turning as he's trying to formulate a plan that will satisfy his uncle. But you take that same character and you put him opposite Nagakado, and it's a totally different energy.

It's very matter of fact, I'm just going to say, wouldn't it be great if we could reach out to your dad and I'm going to push that particular button very calmly over and over and over. And Hiroko Nai, I thought, just really walked the balance of those two sides of Omi really effectively. Again, the show is sort of raced through a lot of like part one. But we leave, I don't know if you felt this way, but when we left Ajo, when we left the village, I was sort of like, oh, I want to stay with Omi. Like, I was so interested in Omi.

And so it's like so great that we're back so quickly in this setting. We really only took like an episode and a half detour and now we're back to the village and that's great for me, for you, for everyone. Speaking of the village and Toranaaga is sort of concealed plans, we are reminded in this episode, there's a mole in the village, there's someone in the village who's

reporting directly to Toranauga. This is a tricky thing for me to talk about as a book reader. So I'm just going to hand it over to you, Rob Mahoney. Theory Corner, Rob Mahoney, who's the mole? I don't even think it requires a theory. I think we're shown pretty explicitly

in episode one that Maragi, the Catholic villager who Blackthorn talks to on the beach in this episode, is implied to be the spy or the rat that Yabushige is concerned. He's basically running like a pigeon post office down there by the beach. And so if he turns out not to be

given how often he has popped up on this show and given the scenes and the context in which he has popped up, I would be very surprised. So like my understanding at this point is we're supposed to assume that Maragi is the spy, the quote unquote spy. and that, yeah, Yabushige and certainly Omi don't know that yet.

Yeah, I don't know how to talk about that. Just sidle on by, you know? Just like sweep my steps and move on. Just mind the moss, please. How do you feel about the way that Toranauga is being used in the show where you sort of like in and out, like, are you find, do you find yourself wishing that Hiroyuki Sonata was like in every single scene? I mean, always.

Always, right? But like, how do you feel about, I think what's interesting is that when we're not seeing him, I'm always curious, like, what plans are you enacting? Yes. Because he tells us what he's off to do. But is that what he's off to do? Because he's like, you know, schemes within schemes. What is Torinaga up to?

Does he tell us exactly? And we know he's off in Edo. Right. But do we know what he's doing there? I thought it was kind of, there's already some secrecy as far as even that goes. Well, here's what I'll say. I think the book does a good job of keeping. us outside of Toranaga's head.

Yeah. And I think the show would have a harder time of that. And so I think the way that they're finding a solution to that is to keep him off screen sometimes. So we literally can't see him. Not only that does that take us out of his head, but taking him off the board is what accelerates the plot in this way. It gives room for characters who are much less deliberate and much less disciplined to make big mistakes. And we don't get that if he's just like lurking around, calling shots all over the place. And you can really get a sense, even in his limited time in this episode, of how powerful and how dangerous Toranaga is by the way he wins over the crowd of soldiers.

Oh, my God. I loved this. It's like, a couple lines. Oh, no. Are you kidding me? These are my guys. How quickly our guys can be turned against us. And waved your fan around?

Are you joking? Yeah, I loved that. Talk to me more about that scene. What did you like? about it. I mean, the gravitas of that fan wave. That's the kind of thing you're getting from Hira Yuki Sonata that you can't teach and you're not just getting from any actor, especially a younger, less experienced actor or a character who isn't as savvy as Toronaga is. But yeah, the way he, it's just like a couple of moments of pride and humility. And that's all it takes.

Like he's clearly a very gifted orator. And with that, with one speech to a regiment of soldiers, they're chanting his name. And he has one favor. He's one power. He's asserted control of a situation where, you know, it's kind of a dicey moment when the boats are rolling up on the dock.

And we don't really know where Yabushige is standing at this point. There's an army of his soldiers waiting for them there. What does that mean for Torinaga and his aides and his allies and his family? And it turns out it's nothing to worry about so long as he's there. Because I think when he's there,

he can exert influence. And when he's not, we see what happens. happens, and ropes get let go of all over the place, and cannons are going off, and people are literally exploding. Something we've talked about in the past is, like, this show, which is visually beautiful, and this is another, like, very beautiful episode. To your point about, like, you know, drops of water dropping off, you know, the roof and stuff like that, just like these really beautiful, quiet moments.

There are, of course, some, like, oh, we do get an earthquake. There are, of course, some, like, of course, digital effect moments. I thought the cannonball turning, cannibals turning men into goop was actually pretty well done. I thought that was like pretty well done. I think it's not the, it's never sort of the small granule stuff.

It's granular stuff is when they're trying to show us like scope that they bump up against some barriers. But there was nothing really in this episode, perhaps other than the crowd of soldiers from the boat to the shore, that ping to me is like, I would love to see even more money thrown at this question. But I was really impressed with the gore and the goop personally.

A lot of good goop. One of my favorite visuals from this episode was... You don't want to use the word squelch again? We can definitely squelch it up. Okay, great. The visual of Jozin, after he's been hit by the canon, like dismembered, but still defiant and angry. He's not panicking.

He's not screaming. He's just furious about the way that, like, convention has been defied here. And the way that the rule of, like, battle and law has been defied. This isn't what we do. Yeah. And so, you know, I imagine we're going to be hitting up against those boundaries all season. Like, now that these cannons are in play, now that, you know, Tornaga is after these Western tactics and things that his enemies had never seen before.

That's the whole point of introducing these variables. But what you get in terms of gore, I think, is exceptional. I thought that that staging was really, really great. All those scenes were jaw-dropping and certainly jarring. But I think what we're learning about the special effects of this show is that it works a little better at land than at sea. That's where we're really seeing it the most in terms of the hazy backgrounds and the horizon lines and everything beyond the ship,

which I think the ship looks great. But it plays a little better on land right now. Yeah, I agree. And I think to go back to this idea of like Tornaaga and tactics, I think this is what we keep seeing from him. Like we didn't see a lot of his, we're watching a long game play out for him in, okay, I'm going to leave this guy here and he's going to train people for me, right? That's like one piece that he is putting on the board to play later. But, you know, the dressing up to smuggle out of the palace, the resignation from the council, like all of that. His little like smirk, you know, when he obviously is like, oh, I suppose all you can do right now is commit Sepaku, right? You know, like, that's the only option, I suppose. Oh, well. You know, and he's like, you know, we'll see, we'll see if they get a consensus. I have tied them up in red tape and they're fucked actually.

But it's his ability to think outside the box of convention. Like, to go back to this idea of Mariko Convention, eightfold fence, like we're used to boxing things in certain ways. This is how it's done. There are things rippling happening underneath the placid surface of this lake. There's churn. There's things happening. things are squelching, if you will. Like stuff is happening underneath here.

But what Torinaga does is like what he's happening underneath his plastic surface is of a different flavor, a different ecosystem entirely than the other people are used to thinking of that his opponents are used to thinking of. And I think that's what makes him so such an interesting element to introduce into this mix. Well, especially one who has the outward appearance of such dignity, and such grace. But as he himself will tell you, this isn't really about my friends and my enemies. Like, it's just me.

It's just preserving power. It's just keeping my head on my shoulders. And there are a lot of pawns on the board when you're sitting that high up. I wouldn't have left my fail son behind in the village if it were me. I don't know. I would have kept him close.

Yeah, if Yabushige is the babysitter. Yeah, that's not an ideal situation. Not what you want. To go back to Omi, we get this scene with Kiku. and Omi, where I don't know about you, but I, Omi told her he loves her and she's like, that's nice. My guy.

Good Lord. But delighted to be reunited with Kikku, a character who I really enjoy. Especially if Omi is working Nagakado, Kiku is working Omi really hard. If only you were our lord. Oh, yeah. How great things would be.

Oh, everything would be swimming. Some batting of the eyelashes. Yeah. You know, it's, all it takes and Omi is just wrapped around her finger. What do you think is her long game? I have no idea. And to be honest, I don't know enough about like the political mobility for someone who is

starting off as a cortisand. Like they obviously, it's a position of distinction and of artistry. Like we see her plucking away, like given some mood music, like very multi-talented, very worldly, very intelligent. But like, is it plausible that she could become the lady of a lord? Is it plausible that she would have some mobility in that way? I don't know whether she just wants to be the voice on Omi's shoulder who wield some influence that way or whether she wants to be legitimized in a way, you know, not unlike Blackthorn is being legitimized with title and with more official capacity.

I think it's always first thinking about like what, like how smart she is in terms of analyzing psychology, as we noted in her first appearance. I think also the way that they treat her almost like she's not there. When she's like playing music for them, they're talking like she's not even there. and that's like always a character worth watching. I think that someone who has their like ears open in a room where people are just like not even paying attention to them. But I think that that question about mobility is one we should always be thinking about when thinking about this show because obviously that's like what Omi and Yabashige are

constantly thinking about is like how can we advance our position. Something we talked about previously is that the Tyco was a peasant and became the leader of everyone and then sort of. close the door behind him to make sure that no one could follow in his footsteps and rise at the ranks that quickly. And so really cemented the caste system. But another peasant general, and this is on the FX character page for Ishido, like the first word is peasant. It's like peasant general. So like Ishito a character we always have to be thinking about as someone who came from nothing and what does he have to lose?

How does that make him think about the ways in which the caste system or the power structures work in this world because he climbed the ladder and people aren't really allowed to climb the ladder as much anymore? I think that's always interesting to think about when you think about the players in Shogun. And I find myself wondering that about Omi too. Like who is Omi actually loyal to?

Because he's working in the service of Yabushige in some way. But when the canon start going off at the end of this episode, after he has egged Nagakato on, Omi seems like he's smirking a little bit, it looks like, in the background about some of the implications of this and the developments, but it doesn't seem like Yabushige knows the plan exactly. And so they had discussed earlier in the episode, okay, maybe there's something we can do.

But I don't get the sense that Omi necessarily clued him in on it. I don't know whether he wants Yabushige to do well and potentially, you know, let's say in a dream scenario for Yabushige, join the council. And then Omi moves up accordingly. Like everyone moves up around on the ladder. Is that what he wants? Or does he even care if Yabushige is in that position?

Is he looking for his own capital and his own ability to persuade and appeal to higher powers like Ashido who, you know, have the ability to confer lots of things on him, including like, you know, his own more control and more power and increase his fief? I have no sense of what Omi's after. And that makes him such an exciting character right now. Yeah, I think my interpretation right now is that he's like hitched his wagon to Yabushige. It seems that way. It seems that way. It advances my cause. Because to your point, he then slides into sort of Yabashige's role.

The Kiku conversation, though, made me second guess that a little bit. And now. You think you wouldn't like hop over Yabashige or something like that. Or just kind of, you know, sneak on past him. You know, like, or who's to say what's going to happen to Yabushige? There's lots of moments in this episode where, you know, he's called to appear before the council in a way that would almost certainly lead to his death. And even this counterplan that Omi has come up with,

I wouldn't say it puts Yabushige in any better position to survive. Do you feel like it's just buying him time? That's the thing. I don't really know how to read Omi's plan. I don't think he's setting anybody up to fall other than Nagakata. Like I think he's trying to spur things in motion. But I'm having a hard time seeing like where the steps of the plan connect that lead to victory or success,

even for Yabushige and Omi boat. Well, so my interpretation of this episode is that he's like, okay, I tried to sell my loyalty to Ishido. Yes. He has to understand that I had to leave with Toranaaga. But to continually deny him his authority, like there's no way for him to send a message of like, actually, I still am loyal to you in some way. But if he can say like Taranaga's, again, not too, you know, no pun intended, wild cannon of a son, just like shooting off. at the mouth and at the canon at your people. Like, I can't control him.

This kid is crazy. Yeah. Have you seen his ponytail? I don't know. I don't know what to do with him. So I think it gives him plausible deniability to Ishido in that way. Maybe so. In a way, he couldn't if he said no to Jozin or something like that, you know?

I just wonder in a world where samurai are being nudged to commit Sepaku for taking one step on a mat. and their family lines are ended as a result, like, what does plausible deniability really get you in this world? That's what I'm wondering as far as these two go right now. But I did love, you know, Yabushi is obviously backed into a corner and the dual exchange of him telling Nagakado, I would give my life for your father. And also to Omi, I can't believe I'm giving my life for this man.

The full Yabu experience in one moment. Yes, I loved it. All right, anything else you want to say about this episode that we really enjoyed? I think one last thing worth mentioning is the lesson in tact. tactics that Blackthorne gives, which is essentially like, use the big guns. That's as far as in advance as his recommendation goes. But I thought it was a notable change. This is another thing they talked about on the official podcast that a correction from the novel was in the novel, he's teaching the Japanese how to use the muskets. And that was a big point of correction that's in the

dialogue about like, look, actually, we've had muskets for 50 years from the Portuguese. We don't need to learn how to do that. But the position that Blackthorn finds himself in, of just relaying like a battle for military history that he heard about one time is not going to cut it. Like he needs to bring something novel and first person to this experience. Not only is a great scene and leads to some of like the great translation shenanigans

that we've been mentioning and talking about in this episode. But it speaks to the precarity of where Blackthorn finds himself. Like he is way, also way out of his depth, doesn't know what he's talking about. And the one thing he can grasp and hold on to is, oh, I have this ship. and if you put some big cannons on it, I can tell you where to point him and how to use him,

but once he goes beyond that point, and we see Mariko's like taking notes about him all episode, and I really don't know what that's all about just yet, other than she's curious about him. And also, you know... Oh, and she has the rudder. She's reading the diary. Let's talk about that for a second, too,

because I assume his diary is written in English, or if not English in Dutch. And so how is she reading it? Why would she be able to read it? Yeah. Like, why would he have written it in Portuguese, which is the only non-Japanese language that she can understand? I don't know how many answer to that question.

Maybe narrative convenience is the answer. Please do email us, top nuts and man buns at e-mail.com, especially if I have forgotten a book detail that I should remember. But yeah, that's a great question. I want to add one last translation from book to screen. In terms of the language, I think it's just elevating what's already good language.

Or I would just say it, taking it sort of rounding off the sort of stereotypical eastern edges of it, like a Western concept of stereotypical eastern edges off it. So James Clevel wrote in the book that Mariko says to John after the earthquake, perhaps that is why we love life so much, Anjinsan. You see, we have to. Death is part of our air and sea and earth. You should know, Anjin, Son, in this,

capital L, land of capital T tears, death is our heritage. That just seemed like, I don't know, reading that, I was a little like, okay, so the way that they said it in the show is after the, this is why our houses go up as quickly as they come down, she says, because death is in our air and sea and earth, it can come for us at any moment. Before you meddle with our politics, just remember, we live and we die, we control nothing beyond that. So that scoops up a lot of the meeting that's there in the book. But kind of, again, just sort of like sands off the like Eastern mysticism

stuff that like Western writers can fall into the trap of writing. Which I think is so much of, you know, to your point about the corrections on the muskets, just so much of this like detail work that they're doing to take a book that is beloved that did introduce

a lot of people to a history in a world that they didn't understand. And Clavel did a ton of research that is very accurate. the book. And there's just some things he got wrong or somethings that are just like a little off that the show is just like slightly course correcting that, um, in addition to just being like a fun, beautiful, well-acted show, um, you know, is, is additive to the long-tail impact of this story on, um, at least American audiences, if not global audiences. So.

And we get a meta-textual representation of that in a lot of these scenes, too, where Blackthorne is confused about the exact pronunciation of the period language, where he misunderstands that he actually doesn't need to teach them about muskets. He's always kind of like a step behind in a way that feels representative of Clavel in some ways.

All right, so, top knots and manbuns at gmail.com. We are four episodes in. I'm so happy we're doing this show. Like, I'm having the best time. Next week, same director. So I'm really excited. And broken to the fist. is the title of the episode.

Very evocative and exciting. So we'll be back next week with episode five of Shogun. Thank you all for listening. Thanks to Kai Grady for not only his NFL expertise. Kai, have you thought of an NFL, a quarterback comp for John Blackthorne? I'm so glad you threw it back to me. I've thought about the perfect comp. Got it for you.

Hell yeah. Okay, hear me on. I know we're not all necessarily football people. But it's Baker Mayfield. Okay. He was known for being a little bit rough around. the edges, you know, before he got into the league. Former number one pick, he's a leader.

He found early success, but then he bounced around the league, couldn't really find his bearings, you know. Signs a one-year, prove-it kind of deal to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers last season, and then they reward him with a new home, a three-year contract. I love it. And then best for last, he kind of sort of looks like him. Look him up. I think it's closer.

Love and respect to the, you know, the Kirk Cousins comp. but I do think it's a bit closer. Also, Blackthorne does have sooner energy, if we're being honest about it. Exactly. So you get it. You're doing the Lord's work here, Kai, or at least Roger Goodell's work.

Yeah, I said, well, you know, once again, white guys with beards. Maybe I just have white guys with beard, like close crop beard blindness. But he doesn't look less like him than the other one does. I'll take it. That's important. You know, I think you crush this.

I think you're ready. Ready for your own NFL Meets Pop Culture show, Kay Grady. And I value always. Thank you, of course, also to Rob Mahoney for being here. Thanks to FX, who doesn't pay us to do this show for making such a great show that we love. And we'll see you next week. Bye.