The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Episode 5 Recap

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Jo and Rob return to break down the fifth episode of ‘Shogun.’ They discuss the multiple meanings behind the episode’s title, “Broken to the Fist,” the implications of Buntaro’s return, and Toranaga’s schemes within schemes. Along the way, they talk about Moeka Hoshi’s nuanced performance as Fuji and how Yabushige got played. Later, they briefly look ahead at what Lady Ochiba’s menacing arrival could mean for the back half of the season. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And pour yourself the biggest, sloppiest bowl of sake. Rob Mahoney's here to talk about Shogun episode five. Hey, Rob, how you doing? You know, maybe just a little cup for me, Joe. I'm a little worried because nothing gets in a podcaster's head like an episode about the power of our words and choosing them carefully. And yet, we're about to be able to. blather on for an untold amount of time.

I'm already worried about stepping in it. Sake not included. All right. We will, we will restrain ourselves. We will not, you know, engage in any,

like, dick measuring contest by way of bow competition. Don't drink in bow. I think is good advice for everybody out there. That's what I always say. I've always said that, as you know. This is episode five. We are midway through the season,

exactly midway. Broke into the fist is the name of the episode. We're going to talk about that in a second. Before we get into everything, we're going to go kind of chronologically through this very good episode of television today. I thought I would hit just like a few emails because I don't know if you know this from, but we work for theringer.com. Yes.

And there's nothing theringer.com listeners love more than a sports comp. And we opened this bottle of sake, this can of worms last week. We hung this pheasant up to dry last week when we, Hi, our producer, Kai, come on and give us a QB John Blackthorn comp. We got a lot of emails in response. And Kai, if you wouldn't mind, hop you on the mic, one more time. I want to run a few of these by you. Kai, as far as I'm concerned, we just got a lot of emails about a bunch of other white guys with beards.

But I just want to let you to let me know what you think of these. Sure. Can't wait. Adam, our listener, Adam, says Jay Cutler. Jay Cutler, a quarterback I actually know about. All right. That's how famous Jay Cutler. Jay Cutler, Kai.

What do you think? I think Jay Cutler's maybe a little bit more attractive than John Blackthorn. I don't know. Just to fit pure physically. Oh. But not a bad comp. He's also like not in the NFL anymore. So it didn't really consider him.

But it's a good one. We're all about the present day here. Yeah. He's a bet. Okay. We did get an email from Joseph who said that you nailed it with the Baker comp. No, no, it's perfect 10-10. A lot of those comments on Twitter and the emails,

a lot of consensus building. Yeah, I'm very glad I didn't just get panned on here for that. That would have been a rough one. So I'm glad that Baker hit for some folks. You did this proud. Okay, Brian proposes that John Blackthorne looks like the compass, Philip Rivers. Does it go by Philip or Phil? Is he a cubit?

He's Philip, yeah. Philip? That's wonderful. Constantly looks like he's both perplexed and angry at the same time. Multiple children, though Rivers has Blackthorn beat in total count, lives near the coast and is associated with a body of water, Rivers slash ocean. What do you think? Rivers does have like eight kids. We don't know how many Blackthorn has at this point, but at least two. There's multiple. That's something. It is so many. Okay. In terms of look, I like the like near the coast, you know, body water. It's a little bit of

stretch, but I like it. It's thinking outside of the box. But Philip Rivers like has a very long neck. I don't know if Blackthorn has. Feels more stout to me. Okay. Long neck eight kids. Got it. All right, I'm learning so much. Okay, and last but not least, Sean says, and this one's wild to me, Sean says, Baker Mayfield is a good comparison, yet I was yelling while listening that it's got to be Aaron Rogers.

Again, I, Joanna, know who Aaron Rogers is. Vice presidential nominee, Aaron Rogers? Much like Blackthorne Rogers is the most brash, arrogant having a God complex QB in the NFL. He'd probably also be likely to leave his family and be out at sea for years. That's really good. He's been out at sea for quite some time, I would say.

I like that one quite a bit. I can't be mad at that. Also, real quick, 10 children. That's what Philip Rivers has. So, sorry for the other two. Wow. How dare you undersell his count. All right. So, Jay Cutler, no longer in the NFL. Phil Rivers, long neck, 10 kids, and Aaron Rogers. We all know the deal with Aaron Rogers. Okay. So we're sticking with Baker, I think, is what we're coming to. I think so. I think so. But top knots and man buns at gmail.com. And perhaps next

week, Rob Honey will give us a basketball comp, an NBA comp. Very much looking forward. to that. He's going to nail it. You have a week to think about that, Rob Mahoney. Still a wonder that we're allowed to do pop culture and sports on the same podcast. Who knew? Who knew? What a time. Speaking of pop culture, this one's a little bit more on my alley, and I just want to, I don't know if this

is going to land for other people, but it really landed for me, so I can't help myself. Our listener, Mikhail said, use this like Harry Potter quote that cracked me up, a bastardization of it, which was Cosmo Jarvis Potter. You were named after two very minor Marvel characters. And then

just like really got me. Cosma Jarvis. What a name. All right, save it for House of Ardjo. Come on. Fair enough. Fair enough, Rob. All right, let's get back to Shogun. Thank you, Kai. You're the best. Always. Broken to the fist. Written by Matt Landbert, who is a producer on the show, and I was looking at his CV, and the thing that jumped out to me was Into the Badlands, which I thought was like a very mixed show on AMC, but I could see why someone who worked on Into the Badlands would be a good fit for Shogun. There's a lot of like really cool Asian influence in that show. And then directed again by Frederick Iotoia, who directed last week's episode. But I want to do something that we often do but haven't done in a little while,

which is talk about the episode title and its various meanings. So broken to the fist, which, you know, like last week's episode, we get a direct allusion to this in a, you know, in a conversation where Toranaug is talking about a falcon. And this is drawn directly from a similar passage in the book where he's talking about being broken to the fist, meaning jumping to the command a falcon like flies down and sits on your arm broken to your fist, you are the master of that falcon.

So where, other than falconry, a surface read, where else do you see this fitting in the episode, Rob? Honestly, I hadn't even thought about it that way. Obviously, the falconry metaphor is well worn here and well explored here. And I think tells us a lot about Tornaaga and the way he views other people. the fact that all men are Falcons means to him that all men are tools.

You know, they've done a really good job of kind of soft playing how Machiavellian he can be, how he tends to think about other people, including later in this episode when he's telling Maragi to, oh, just go find another spy to pin this on, aka go find someone else to die in your place. Yeah. So very telling about Tornaga's character, but I hadn't even put together alternate interpretations of this show. What are you thinking? Okay. This one's a little, like, cringy, obvious, maybe indelicate or whatever, but, like, Mariko gets beat by her husband in this episode, so there is that.

But not broken, I wouldn't say. No. John Blackthorn, in terms of, like, broken to the customs or the culture of, you know, like, how he's being either shaped by or they are being shaped by him. like who's the falconer who's the falcon in this situation. And certainly the staff of his house is in a lot of ways obeying him in the way of falcon would, like doing his bidding in much the same way, even unintentionally by his work. Right. And then we watch Fuji sort of like in her like soft power way manipulates certain things at the same time.

You know, so there are like, you know, there are obvious and non-obvious ways to break someone to the fist. And then like Tornaga being broken by the like fist of the. The earthquake, like, the earthquake being this thing that, like, he can't control, which is something that, like, you know, the show and Mariko set us up for last week, this idea of the earthquake, like, you know, you live or die, et cetera. She does her own callback. We love a callback in this episode to remind us of that from last week. And, you know, this is like this man who is, like, 10 steps ahead of everyone, charismatic,

powerful, gets a whole village to bow to him by, like, waving his fan around last week, gets literally buried by the earth this week because there are just certain things he cannot control. So yeah, broken to the fist of the earth, I guess. Yeah, I mean, there are things in the show that are bigger than even the biggest characters, whether that's the customs of Japanese culture or the ground literally swallowing them up.

But I love the way you threaded that in terms of the payoffs of episode four. It does feel like, you know, obviously the two-part finale was of a piece. Episode three was kind of literally moving our story. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, yeah, sorry, yeah, sorry, the two-part premiere, I mean. And then episodes four and five are really in conversation with each other.

There's a lot of payoffs, the earthquake, the spy, the kind of manipulation of Nagakato, and the countermeasures from Torunaga, even just like the building of a home and the understanding of what that means. Yeah, for it to be destroyed and potentially built again. I love that. Okay, so we're going to go roughly in chronological order for this episode. We're to start in Ajiro, and we start in Ajiro, and we. see Yujiro and Moraji, Moraji, who is, you know, as Rob said very plainly last week,

very obviously the spy, Moraji and Yiziro, we will, like, you not having read the book. Yeah. Were your sputty senses tingling by how much Yudu was like in this episode? We kept coming back to him. Like, what was that? Was that making you think of any kind of particular outcome?

Or were you just like, man, this guy's delightful. I'm so happy to be spending time with it. Unfortunately, more the latter for me. Yeah. I mean, especially, you know, he has this great line about how without a rock, a garden is just a place for growing. And it's amazing how much you can bond us to a character with a line like that, where as soon as he said, I'm like, man, I just want to spend more time with Ujuro.

Like the serenity of the garden, Blackthorn, like, learning that as a place of peace for him. And he's just kind of observing and learning. I was really hoping we'd get to spend more time with that character. So very tough break for Ujuro, obviously, and also for yours truly. I just like love at the very beginning It's very like It was very like Monty Python

Bring out your dead as they're like loading the carrion onto the carts Carrying cart loader Not my number one job That I would like in the village But needs must You know

It's a good reminder that When people, when dudes are getting blown up by cannons Yeah afterward it's somebody's job To pick up samurai bits And put them on the cart The Sun glare

helps with the CGI When Taranaga returns And it's like dramatic because you're like, who is it? You know, it's dramatic, and then the dramatic reveal of Buntaro behind him, all of that, but also helps, like,

the massive army, CGI army behind him look a little better. Again, I'm like, I will call a CG out when I see it, but, like, also I do kind of admire the very, like various tricks and techniques they're using to sort of try to mask, trying to give a scope and scale inside whatever budget they have that they're working with. So the sun glare here, we get some more of that, like, vintage edging on the, on the frame and later shots and stuff like that.

I know you and I were, nobody, no crime. I know you and I were not fooled by the Buntaro cliffhanger, but like, did you expect him to come back so quickly? Like, what did you think? I thought maybe we would get deeper into Blackthorne and Mariko's relationship, especially after some of the ambiguity of last week and they're still playing very coy with this. I thought maybe it would evolve a little more before Buntaro is thrown back into the fold. But I have to say, given the way this episode unfurals, I'm not matter. at the timing at all. Like, I think we get into really interesting,

meaty, awkward stuff really, really quickly by throwing him back into the story at this point. So the timing is, seems to be that, like, it's been a while, right? Like, Toranauga had to go all the way to Edo get his army come back. Buntaro, like 18, Ronan had to die, rescuing Bittaro, like, all this stuff had to go on.

But in terms of the timing of the pillowing between Mariko and Blackthorn. That's like literally yesterday, isn't it? Literally yesterday. the carrion is still, the body, bits and pieces are still on the field from the cannon fire. So, yeah, that's, they only, I think they only got, like, one night and, and then we're back to this. Which I guess also means, like, if Toranauga hadn't stopped for, like, one more wardrobe change on the way from Edo. He might not have.

He might have been able to prevent the whole canon fiasco to begin with. Yeah, if only he hadn't picked up that incredible hat that he wears later. Okay. In Osaka, we get a beginning of the episode, T, that Lady Oceba is coming back to Osaka from Edo. We see her sort of like palanquin or whatever you call it be lifted on her way. Incredible appearance at the end of the episode, I believe. So we'll get to that.

If she had a mustache, she would be twirling it. Exactly. But let's do a quick council member recap, just in case people don't remember. Okay. So there were five. And then Toranoag is like, you can't fire me, I quit. Good luck coming to a consensus about having a fifth person. And you need five in order to behead me.

So good luck. All right. So here are the four that remain. Our guy is Shito, who we know quite well. We get a reminder in this episode, a subtle reminder that he was a peasant before he was a high-rankinging member of the council. We'll get to that little snipe that he gets from one of his fellow members later. Kiyama, Catholic for profit, wealthy, an asshole. Sugiyama, who is the oldest of the regents, and the most philosophical of them.

And I would say probably the one we've seen the least of so far. The least sort of distinctive. Yes. He coughs a lot at the end of... Get my man a lozage, please. Bring the incense out of the room. My guy cannot... His respiratory system cannot handle it.

And then lastly, Ono, who's leprosy. And a devout Catholic. Not a Catholic for profit, but an actual believer. So that's a half Christian council at this point, right? Two Catholics, two non-Catholics. So they have this chat. I think it's Kiama or maybe Su-Gyama, who's insisting that Tornaga must be impeached.

And then Ishido, Takahiro-Hira, as Ishido gets off, like, the most wry, how nice to see all of us united, like, opening remarks. He's so good in this episode. Oh, good throughout, but so good. good here. That's what the Tyco wanted to put together a counselor was essentially like Lincoln's team of rivals. Like a bunch of people who don't get along so that no one could sort of

take over and they're all nominating their friends. What did you make of this? This very barbed and loaded nomination process. Oh, I thought it was really funny. I had a great time, especially with the unceremonious exits as people are getting

offended and pissed off. It's like you can't even nominate someone without someone tearing them down and then you're offended and you leave and all we're left with at the end is Ishido and Sugiyama just like staring at each other and one of them coughing with nothing to do. So Toranaaga's plan, I would say, going off with that hitch so far. That slight at Ishido comes from Kiama who says that Ishido's friends would stink of countryside. Your peasant friend does not belong on the council here. And Ashido's like, your Christian friends do not belong on the council here.

So let's see. This is just the first of a few examples, I think, in this episode of Toranaaga, employing. that falconry idea of quote, learn to fly them at the right game and they will do your hunting for you. So Tornaaga pitting people against each other as he will with like

Obi and Yavishige later. He's like, I don't have to tear the council down. The council will do it all by itself if I put the pieces on the right place in the board. I don't know. My guy's a genius. What do you think, Rob?

He's very good. I mean, I feel like we're doing. for some comeuppance at some point. And maybe you could argue... You got swallowed by the earth, rough. Well, less existential comeuppance, more an actual rival in this space. And that's why I'm kind of hoping

that Lady Ochiba can be that. That she's made it very clear the time for politics is over. She's ready to run shit now. And Toranooga needs a real foil. And Ashido has been that in stages. And I think their shared history lends itself to that.

But it was pretty clear who was getting the leg up in that particular matchup. She's just been racked up. the L's honestly. It's a tough week for him too. It hasn't been great for him. He let Toranauga escape like a couple weeks ago.

Yeah, it's not a great time to be Ishida. His friend comes back to him, his head in a basket. We'll talk about that. Okay. Then we go to falconry, actual falconry.

Tatuko is the name of the falcon. Lady of Steel is the translation as Mariko points out. And Toraga and Mariko talk about Buntaro that rescue like it costs 18 people of their lives in order to rescue Buntaro, something that later

my interpretation is that Buntaro considers that somewhat shameful all the people that had to die to rescue him? What do you think? I mean, it would make sense, just given his reputation as a warrior, as an archer, clear, like he's someone who's such a high estimation

of himself. The idea that he would need to be rescued at all, I'm sure, is kind of an insult to him. He's like, if only I could have shot an arrow through one small hole a number of times. Or two arrows, perhaps. I will say, like,

Shinosuke Abe's performance in this episode is so new. Like, it's a monstrous character. Yes. Like, especially as this episode evolves, but the shame and the conflict and the guilt and the anger that he's bringing to this performance

and this episode in particular, like this is the most time we've gotten to spend with him. And I feel like it really paid off in such a huge way. Yeah, this is an episode where, you know, he gets drunk, has a dick measuring contest,

like literally beats his wife, all of that sort of stuff. He is, you know, to your point about Lydia Chiba, like, you know, if he had a mustache, you know, in some shows, he'd be twirling it, but that's not the characterization that they're giving us here. This is a man who is just like congested with shame. And, you know, it spills out in all these other directions, but he really wants to aim it at himself. And I think that nuance.

of character. I mean, this episode really locked for me that Shogun is operating just on an astronomical level. Because these characters have emerged. We have our three main characters. They're wonderful. But, like, we've talked about Yabashige, we talked about Fuji last week.

Omi, Buntaro, like all these minor or supporting characters feel so fully realized both by performance and writing. And it's just dazzling to me. And they've pulled that off without some huge flashback to explain their backstory, without like a breakout section for a character like Buntara.

Like we hear about what happened to him. We see him in action a couple times in previous episodes. We see him and Mariko's relationship in bits and pieces. But it's all just the way that's threaded together that makes it so effective more so than overwhelming us with backstory on any particular character. I completely agree. And that's a trap that a lot of modern television has fallen into. inspired by one of my favorites lost, but you'll be like, oh, this is the Buntaro episode

or this is the Fuji episode. We don't need, like, a whole episode with a ton of flashbacks to your point to understand the characterization of these people. It's in performance. It's in the writing. It's so good. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help.

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Everything, Mariko? Everything? Everything, girl. I don't think so. I hope not. Hope some things were redacted. We did get an email from our listener, Abe, who wanted to answer the question we had last week about Mariko reading the redder and your question about languages. Abe says I went back and watched episode four of Shogun went to the scene where Mariko is reading Blackthor's journal.

When I paused during the scene, or not the redder, she's reading the journal. When I paused during the scene, what I saw is that she's not actually reading the journal, but rather one sheet translation that the Portuguese had written when they had the journal in their possession. It's almost like a lexicon. You can go verify this, blah, blah, he gives the timestamp. I knew that they wouldn't have made that oversight. They've been so detail-oriented throughout the whole show. And that said nice things about the podcast.

Thank you, Abe, and thanks for that clarification. Great. Absolutely. Great call. Okay. So Tar Naga tells Madigo to stay in Blackthorne's house. And not only that, Bhuntara is going to come. and hang out with them too. What could go wrong?

What move, knowing that Toranauga, sees everyone as his little falcons and aiming them at each other. What move is he making here? I was perplexed by this. This felt like, if anything, a guy who's seeing the whole chessboard and maybe not clocking

that the knight and the rook are making eyes at each other the whole time. I don't know if he's oblivious to it or just it's not a priority to him with so many other pieces in play, but I can't make heads or tails of what Toranauga would want out of these four people in one space together. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Don't neglect Fuji. I can't. I will say this is a rare case where the book takes us inside Toranauga's head and he like does know what's going to clock. Mariko and Blackthorn pretty quickly. I mean, it's pretty obvious. Yeah. But Taro also like definitely knows.

Well, Fuji's tried to serve it up for him a little bit too. I don't know. I thought Fuji was trying to cover. You thought she was trying to to expose Monaco? I don't know if she was trying to expose their relationship, but the way she said, oh, he's taking comfort in other women. It seemed a little pointed to me. Oh, that's so interesting. I thought it was the opposite. I thought she was like, he's fucking many courtesans,

and certainly not. He's a man about town. Who is your wife? Absolutely not. That's fair. That's fair. But it could go either way, honestly. But Fuji's loyalty is so interesting in this episode, right?

because we know from like, and it's so important that they put that early Monteco Fuji interaction in the very, in the first episode. So we know about sort of their dynamic, but her duty in this role that has been assigned to her is to John.

And I think that's so fascinating. We seem to her really come alive these last two episodes. I mean, she gets like a straight up Tommy Shlami walk and talk through the house. She's ordering nine. She's ordering servants around. She's really found her purpose

in kind of running the affairs of the house. Oh, my God. I haven't heard the name Tommy Shalovian a couple in a while. It's been a long time, Rob. Thank you so much for that West Wing flashback. Okay. Again, I'm a bit informed by bookstaff, but I would say that Tornaga is trying...

It's another sort of blackthorn test, the measure of a man sort of thing. What are you going to do in this volatile situation? I'm about to put you inside the powder keg, what are you going to do? Blackthorns like, get drunk,

make gross stew, and try to shoot a guy in my garden. Just a weeknight, really. It's not great. Toraga catches sight of his son, Nagakato. Something I want to shout out,

we got a couple emails about this, and this is true. Interestingly, in the book, there are a lot of abbreviations for name. Like, Fuji is an abbreviation that the show and we've been using or whatever, but Nagakato in the book is called Naga.

Yabushige is called Yabu. Like all this are, like, they're known by these abbreviations. And I can't tell if, like, not using that in the show is one of those, like, gentle correctives of, like, this white guy writer being like, let's just call him Yabu. And they're like, eh, we wouldn't. I would say based on some of the interviews and some of the comments on the official podcast, it is that. It's like more of a commitment to period accurate naming conventions for the most part.

So Nagakato looking a bit lost, as he always does, with the falcon perched on his arm. And Torana is just like immediately clocked that Omi and Yawishige have manipulated his son. Oh, yeah. We got this email from our listener, David, who's about Nagakata, who says, it's his beard. It's what makes him appear juvenile as an Asian man in his 40s that has had to grow his sideburns from above his ears his entire life. It's the thin facial hair. So I was thinking it's like the angle of his ponytail that just looks so bouncy and like his name is Jessica or something like that.

But, you know, I'll take, I'll take David's word for it that it might be the beard. How are you feeling about Nagakato and Toranauga and what happens here? Yeah, it seems like Toranaugas less pissed that Nagakato fucked up and more pissed that he got played. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You should know better than this. If this had been your idea.

Seriously. And he even says later, like, Nagakado's not clever enough to think of something like this on his own. Just rough, rough stuff. I do love how quickly, you know, Tornaga and Omi have not really interacted on the show, barely at all, if at all. Yeah. And how quickly he clocks that, oh, it must be Omi that's behind this in some way. Like, he clearly knows a player in the game when he sees one. I have a good question for you.

Yeah. After Tornaaga strips the son of his command, tells him he's like a falcon without the beauty. I object. I think the ponytail is working on Nagato. I think the beauty is there. But we go back to Ishido, and that's when Josun's head in a box arrives. Do you, Rob Mahoney, as a scholar of film, have in your pocket an impression of Brad Pitt and Seven? What's in the box?

Thank you. I knew you would. Okay, great. Ashido knows. By the way, he's just, like, looking at it and his, like, reluctance to take this, like, silk wrapping off. Yeah. This is definitely,

this is one of those boxes that they sent heads in, I'm pretty sure. Who was it that sent the head? Is this an issue of courtesy? Or is this like, we are showing you that we killed your guy? Okay, so they're still picking up

the bits and pieces off the battlefield. Correct. Yeah, the courier service is real fast. Those wet-winged pigeons in the sea crevice later might need a rest, but someone's going quickly. I don't know. That's a good question.

Would it be a Tornaaga move to like unsettle Ishido? Or would it be a Yabashige move? Yeah. An Omiyabashigo joint. I'm more inclined to say Tornaga myself, but yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, Torna Laga certainly does eventually find the silver lining in this whole issue, which is that like, coaxing out the army in some offensive fashion may result in a different kind of warfare than having to wage war on Osaka Castle?

Is that the silver lining, or is Toranauga one of those guys who, like, turns every single setback into, like, well, actually. What other option does he have? This is the best possible thing that could have happened. I can't wait to hear him say that. Well, actually, it's good that the earthquake crushed half my army. Yes. We really had too many people using up resources, and we're a leaner,

meaner fighting machine now. Okay. Blackthard gets the pheasant, the gift. And turns into a southern, he's like, as I live and breathe, as I live and breathe, a pheasant. That was a really good Margo, by the way. I just want to put it out there. And then hangs the bird up to rot. And Fuji's like, oh, one of Fuge's many moments in the episode.

And then, you know, most consequently, in his broken Japanese, says, if touch, die. which he didn't mean it, but that's what he said. I think this episode, though, and this scene, which in the moment plays like a sitcom bit of the crazy roommate doing something wild with his food, like they do a tremendous job of illustrating a divide in the understanding between Blackthorn and the members of the house. I think also between the audience and the Japanese characters as well,

like unless you're pretty well versed and really seeing the tea leaves here, I didn't anticipate anyone actually dying as a result of moving the pheasant. And so playing this like almost for a laugh with the if touch, die, execution. Yeah. And then that pays off in a way where those words carry meaning, I think is a really powerful display and a really powerful message to kind of carry throughout this episode. And I want to go back to something. I think we talked about last, yeah, we talked about this last week, which is I really admire

the way that they are just slowly introducing more and more of the Japanese language into Blackthorns conversation. So right now he's speaking like Japan-English, right? Like, you know, half and half. If that. Yeah. You know, I'm sure his pronunciation's perfect. But, like, I think that we're just, like, seeing, like, he's genuinely trying.

Yeah. He wants to be able to communicate with them. And, like, what's really crucial is that without Monaco later, when Fuji makes, like, one last bid to take the rotting, like, fly-ridden pheasant down, he's like, I don't understand you. I don't know what you're asking. And later you even asked, like, why didn't you ask me? Why didn't you tell me? Right. And it's so clear that she tried to do it.

She tried. Yeah. Yeah, this is where that barrier is so strong between him and Fuji later. Yeah. But the porousness of the communication barrier here where he's able to eke out a couple of misleading words. Right. Really, this whole plot line, this whole sequence, which I found really effective, I think highlights for me the Japanese characters in the story being guarded, not just for the sake of it.

but because their words carry consequences. And they can end a family line. In this case, they can lead to the death of a gardener. These things matter. And so when Blackthorn is ranting and raving and just kind of going about his business, yelling in the streets, it's clearly taking him a long time

to grasp that bit of nuance and cultural difference between him and everyone else in this world. I love that callback he just made to the very beginning when Fuji's husband just like could not restrain himself in a meeting and ended his life and his child's life. If anyone here would understand the power of that kind of speech, it would be Fuji. Then we get this conversation, as you mentioned, the Tommy Shlami walk and talk.

This is what Fuji's, like, Fuji's so perturbed by the pheasant situation. Rightly so. Yeah. She's like, he gets his own utensils. He doesn't touch our utensils. He is disgusting. But I love this, like, that moment of, like, steal inside of her when someone says something about the cook. She's like, if I want another cook, I will, like, tell you when we're getting another cook.

cook. Like, it was just like a great, I just, this is a great Fuji episode. But, um, and we get that Buntaro Fuji interaction, which you and I have slightly different interpretations of. But, um, I like that when he's like, how is being a consort to barbarian? She says, I'm a consort to a Hatamoto. I wouldn't know. Fuji. Girl. Killer. Amazing. And then she, what I love is that there's just like such subtle nuance in this performance in terms of like, there are so many good Fuji reaction shots in this episode, particularly during like the dinner and the sake scene. and all of that sort of stuff. But here, when she is trying, I think,

to make sure there isn't an eruption in her household later on and trying to seem unperturbed by his questions, and then as soon as he, like, his shoulder passes her, her face sort of like crumbles in this like, this is extremely stressful and I'm very scared. Look on her face. It's really, really good.

That's where I feel like your interpretation has to be correct because she is so invested in keeping the piece of this house. And it's clearly something that she's made her mission. The idea of her seeding information about Blackthorn and Mariko doesn't really track with her motivations in this episode. So I think you must be right about that. The thing I know I'm right about is that Toraga is wearing an incredible hat and we need to talk about it.

Look, if you're going to take a meeting with Yabushige, your only choice is to try to out-swag him. Ooh, it's true. It's true. So I feel like that's the real reason he went to Edwold. in the first place. It's like, I got to get my hat. I got to get my stuff. I got to get these fits off. I got to come correct.

That's incredible. Okay, I sent a screen cap of it, like a photo that I took of the screen to Molly Rubin last night because she and I talked about Kristen Cole's hat on House of the Dragon for like, oh, I don't know, six months. From the front, his hat looks like Kristen Cole's hat from House of the Dragon season one. And I was like, this hat is following me. And then I told her, I can't even describe what's happening in the back. though. You have to see it for yourself. It really must be seen to be believed. It's incredible. It's, you know, the drip is just exquisite, just wonderful. And we know that everything is like meticulously detailed and accurate and all of that. But the hat just like, sort of like Yabushige's feather shrug situation earlier. Like this hat really did a number on me. And this is where Toranaaga plays Yabu Shige like a goddamn fiddle. It is amazing.

delicious. He gets Yomishika to blame Omi for the whole canon Mishigas. And then he's like, that was a brilliant move. And then, you know, as he mentioned, he's like, this is the best possible thing that could have happened to me. Now they have to come here, which like does sound like, there's truth in it. Correct. But also he's posturing a bit, right? He's like, I don't fail. I don't have setbacks. I do nothing but win. Have you seen my hat? And then he's like, I'm going to give Omi command. of canon, of Anjid's canon. And this goes back to learn to fly them at the right game,

and they will do your hunting for you. Here he has identified a threat in Omi and Yabashige working together to manipulate his son. And then he's like, I'm going to tear you apart, like, pit you against each other. Look how quickly I do it while wearing this hat. I was dazzled by this. It was so easy for him, too.

The baton of the cannon battalion, I think is something to watch throughout this whole episode because later for Blackthorn, he sees it as like, I train these soldiers, that's my way out. He tries to tell Tornaaga that the job is done and he should be allowed to leave. Tornaga obviously thinks about a lot of things

very differently than Blackthorn. In particular, taking the battalion away from Nagakado is a way to reprimand him. Yeah. Giving it to Omi is a way to influence him in a way. And passing over Yabushige, as you mentioned,

is a way to kind of humble him and manipulate him and split him and Omi apart. And then Omi ultimately takes it and tries to use it to ingratiate himself to Yabushige by offering it back to him. And I wouldn't say Yabushige takes too kindly to that. So it almost backfires in that way too. It blows up in his face.

How can you relinquish what already belongs to me is what he says? After ransacking someone's house while looking, continuing to look for the spy. Throwing baskets everywhere. Yabu Shige sends a lieutenant off to Ishida. Yeah, do we know this guy's name? I've just been calling him Mr. I patch. I did put iPach in my notes and I was like, I'm sure Rob will figure out what his name is, but alas.

I only have his title and it's Mr. I. Dr. iPach, perhaps, but I've been going Mr. I patch. Professor I Patch. Okay. Well, iPach is sent by Yavishait to Ishido. I really was counting on you to figure out what his name is. We'll figure it out before next week. We get another, like, charming Yudito encounter with Moraji where they're talking about these, like, things were

worse in Korea while eyeballing all the flies that are circling this rotting pheasant, we had to eat silkworms cooked and show you. People don't die from flies. This is what makes his death really sad because he's actually kind of rather unbothered by the pheasant. It's not that he was so upset by the pheasant. He had to tear it down. He did it because the village wanted it or whatever.

But he's just sort of like, have you heard about silkworms and show you? Way worse. Because you're always such a real one. I'm going to miss him terribly. I know. Would you, after our Nado discussion,

I just need to know. Would you Rob Mahoney eat silkworms cooked and show you? I mean, apparently they kill you or could kill you? I guess.

So that's going to be a no from me, dog. What if you're on Survivor and it's been weeks? Yeah. I don't know what the prize money is on Survivor,

but it's not worth it to me. Okay. Now, what I eat the rotting pheasant? If someone vouched for it strongly, I would try it. So is the idea, because later Blackthorn tries to get them to eat rabbit stew? Pour that stew into the sea, Fuji says. I can't wait to try to use that. The next time someone makes something and it's terrible,

we'll be like, pour that into the sea right now. Why is, okay, I guess I did not Google, like, why would someone let their meat rot before they use? it in, like, by necessity, I can see eating a rotten pheasant. And maybe you get a taste for it when you're on a boat. You're like, nothing but rotten meat on this boat, you know? But like, you've got the fresh pheasant right there. Why would we not get to pluck in?

This is just a culinary battle. Yabushige is a pioneer suvied. Blackthorns out here dry aging his meat. What's wrong with this? Oh, without the benefit of like salt or smoke or anything like that. Yeah, it's not important, clearly. I'm just letting the flies do it for him. Okay.

Fuji, okay, I love this scene. Fuji and Monaco are pre-gaming dinner because they do not want to eat rabbits do. They want to have their wits about them. So they're just like, we're going to eat our delicious pickled vegetables here and now. So we don't have to worry about slurping our noodles later as we keep an eye on the men. And Fuji says that they're cursed, which is something Mariko will say later. Yeah. And she mentions Tatarigami, which is.

is like a spirit. She calls John Blackthorn a spirit, sort of this, like, haunting her kitchen. Poor Fuji. And I'm wondering how you interpret this. Fuji asks if John is in danger from Buntaro. Yeah. Mariko gives her this, like,

girl, please look? Like, what did you make of her reaction to that? I think Mark was still trying to play it cool about the whole thing and saying, like, what would there be to worry about? Oh, what do you mean? No one's been pillowing. I certainly have been pillowing.

I think it's mostly that energy to which Fucci is clear. too wise for, and plus these walls are very thin. Everyone heard you. I don't know what you think you're hiding at this point. But yeah, the openness of that line of questioning. And also Fuji kind of directly calling out Mariko's misery at her husband being alive. I found pretty striking, right?

The idea of like, the reason I'm cursed is because of my contaminated kitchen. The reason you're cursed is because your guy is here. Your husband's back. Sorry. Your husband survived. Condolences. Then we get, let's talk, a dinner, a dinner scene to rival all dinner scenes, right? Good Lord, yeah.

Just one of the mediest, juiciest scenes that Shogun has given us yet. And I'm not even talking about the rabbit stew part of it. Or the delicious looking noodles. Just quickly, before we get to dinner, Buntaro does snatch a fly out of the air. I just want everyone to acknowledge that. I mean, maybe we shouldn't be that dazzled by those reflexes when he, He later shoots, again, shoots two arrows through the same tiny hole in some rice paper. But here we are.

Love Moni Kho saying in rejecting the rabbit stew saying we are particular eaters. It is our loss, which is what I will say if anyone ever offers me not to. That will be my response. It's not a bad response. I have a particular eater. It is my loss. Great stuff. Baby monkey, Fuji reacting to the slurping.

Let's talk about Fuji here because her watching in disbelief as Blackthorn fills his bowl with sake I need someone to edit Fuji reaction shots into all sorts of intense conversations in TV and movie history I want her reacting to the chest burst in alien I want her at the table with the scouts and Moneyball

I want her watching the blood test in the thing Molycahoshi's just crushing every one of these so hard It's incredible. Incredible stuff. She's like so alarmed yet contained. It's so good. We have this great line, right? So Blackthorne asked Buntaro to share the story of his escape from Asaka as a way to deflect from having to admit that he's never fought in a war, I suppose.

I think he just wants like a, like a, we're all drunk. We're several bowls of sake and they're just pouring and pouring and pouring and pouring to these bowls at this point. And Fuji's like, tell them we're out of sake. For real. I don't know if Buntaro knew what he was getting into going drink for drink with an English sailor. That's a particular life choice that he's making. But I took it as like drunk at the pub late night story time kind of vibes,

less so than trying to distract from anything. I think he's like, we're all drunk. Let me give you my proverb and you tell me a story. Yeah, let me give you my hallmark toast. No, but I mean, like, I don't know if Buntaro knows that John Blackthorne's not really a soldier. Because he's not really... No. And he does confront him with that.

But I feel like doesn't he ask him for the Osaka story first? I thought it was in reaction to the... No, you're right, you're right. You're right. And when you're right, you're right. Okay. So, Osaka story is just...

We've had bowls of sake. We're at the pub. Thank you, Rob Mahoney. And Buntaro says, heroism is for the dead and stories are for children, which is an FX original. This is not in the book,

and I loved it. And that's an FX original. fucking bar is what it is. Yeah. Heroism is for the dead and stories are for children. This is language. This reminds me, okay, I know the Thrones comps are so thin and worn out at this point, but it just reminds me of like the early days of Thrones when you would watch and someone

would just like drop the most delicious line of dialogue and you're like, I'm going to be thinking of that forever. I'm going to be trying to figure out excuses to say not only throw the stew in the sea, but also heroism is for the dead and stories are for children. Bad news for us, though, we are clearly children. We love a story. Something I want to say in this moment is I will say, you know, as I'm sort of trying to track the episodes through the book, I have been stunned by how closely they're adapting this book. There are some, like, character tweaks, and there's this occasional, like, elevation of dialogue.

There's some beautiful lines in the original book. But then you get something like this, heroism for the dead and stories are for children. And you're just like, somebody had their macha bad day in the writer's room. Great job. But every time I think, like, oh, they're going to, oh, they're not going to do that. They're going to skip that. They find a way to circle back to it. And it's hewing very closely, like, just chapter by chapter.

And, like, I've covered a lot of adaptations in my day. And I have very rarely seen something that is both so faithful and yet feels so alive. in its own thing at the same time. Yes. Because oftentimes you get sort of stodgily faithful to something. It doesn't feel like you're doing anything additive to it. You're just translating words on the page. Usually people can kind of tell even if they don't know.

There's nothing worse as a viewer than feeling like something is being translated from a novel for the sake of it being in a novel. And you're like, I don't even understand what the narrative function is in this adaptation on the screen. Right. It just makes you feel left out in a way that there's a world you're not understanding, but everything here, I think, has been tethered together pretty tightly. Yeah. And again, as we mentioned last week, they're doing some additive, sort of imagery,

lyrical connect the dots that the original book maybe leaves up to the reader to do, and the TV show is like, let's hold your hand a little bit more in this, but not in a way that ever feels over-obvious. Yeah. Anything you want to say about the shooting of the arrow in front of Marico? and how she just stands there. Yeah, I mean, it's a little showy, like from a cinematic standpoint,

but I think it works as a boiling point for this dinner party, and it certainly works as a display of what even sloshed Buntaro is capable of, right? The precision, and that was something I was trying to figure out how to read is this is a guy who later, after beating his wife, uses his drinking as an explanation

for disrupting the order of the house. And I don't know whether it were to interpret from this arrow display, the fact that clearly he still has his wits about him in some ways, enough to shoot two arrows through a pinhole. Or is he just that impressive of a soldier that even though he can barely sit straight, he can fire off these arrows, or is it a little of both? I think it's both.

I think Buntaro is absolutely smashed. Yes. And can still shoot these arrows with deadly accuracy. And when sober snatch a fly out of the air, I don't know why I find that so impressive. Is that a thing people do? I couldn't do it. Anyway. It's a thing Buntaro does.

Just as a little party trick. He's just like of an afternoon. So I think he is that good while drunk. And yet also I doubt that's the first time he's ever hit Mariko. So like I'm sure he's done it sober. So using the sake as like a cover for his behavior, but also was quite drunk. I think at the same time.

But another case where like the whole display with Buntaro out in front of the house when Blackthorn confronts him after the fact. Yeah. And we're trying to read him. trying to read his intentions, he makes this like offering of his sword in penance, basically, for what he's done in terms of disrupting the order and the look on Chinasuke Abe's face as he comes up. Yeah. I just see like a million things across his face and across that character in a way that is so rich for this sort of story, for a character that could be so flat and could be

so like clearly coded evil. He's much more interesting than that. If not redeemable, interesting. I completely agree. And I think also, to your earlier point about like how much this episode is about the way in which the specificity of your words matter something that you and I both have been tracking throughout is the joy of watching

Monaco sort of try to interpret things in a way that is both true like she's not lying but she's trying to... Sometimes she's kind of lying. Most, well I'm like at this dinner with Buntaro and John

being absolute assholes, she is trying to keep the meaning there while removing the sting. You know what I mean? Sanding down a lot of edges. The slurp means you're enjoying it like a baby monkey would. You know, their cups in England are bigger. Only ladies drink out a small cup. You know what I mean?

Like she's just, she's very good at her job. Well, especially how taught this whole sequence is. It's that way because every thing. is balanced pretty squarely on Mariko's shoulders. Like, she is the only conduit for communication. She's the only way these two men who do not like each other can actually confront one another other than just fighting out in the open. And so her presence there, in a way, beyond just being this kind of love triangle,

inflames it by the fact that she's the only person who can help them communicate. I also love, I love the moment. So when Buntaro, like, forces is maybe the wrong word, but sort of urges or demands, yeah, demands that she tell the story of her family. And Blackthorns like, you can make anything up right now and he'll never know, which is just like a great, like,

I believe that he has mostly kind of believed what she said in terms of interpreting, but just like such a great moment of, I'm paying attention and I know the nuances of this. And like, you know, this is a moment where you can lie. Let me release you from the obligation of sharing this thing with me that is obviously like,

so distressing to you, which is very gentlemanly. I, like, that strikes me as even more, like, chivalric, like, attractively chivalric than him, like, getting up in the middle of the night and running to, like, stop her husband, which is also, but, like, this moment of, like, this is your personal, private thing. And you don't have to tell me if you don't want to. Yeah, of, like, using the veil of their shared language together. You know, and she even brings back the eightfold fence in this episode, as she tells this really traumatic story and this agonizing story for her, urging Blackthorn to remember the fence.

And I feel like this moment of him telling her she could just say anything, is him, in a way, him saying, like, we can have this one fold in the fence together, right? Like, we can have this kind of secret of like, you don't have to tell me this. And no one has to know about it. Mariko loves a callback. She does. She's like, who doesn't? Do you remember the name of last week's episode?

I'll remind you. Say full offense. Okay. Fuji rushing to stop John from, okay, this is a distinctive difference from the book in the show, which is that Fuji actually succeeds in stopping John and then eventually he runs into Monaco. And the difference of characterization that they give her here

where she is like angry and she's pissed at John, she's pissed at a lot of things, but she's pissed at John for his role in provoking Buntaro into this. Like she's paying the price for his provocation. She's pissed. You know, she says, this is curse, as you say, she, like, calls back to that. The Mariko in the book is much more, like, sort of defeated in this moment. And I just like that she's more, you know, defiant of John and his attempts to, too late, try to make things better, you know.

It also makes where she goes track a little bit. better, right? Her sense in the end that like, we're just not going to talk anymore coming from a place of anger. Yeah. I think makes more sense to me than her feeling defeated. But before we even get that far, her lashing out at Fuji in this moment, because Fuji brings up like, you've brought disorder to this house that I am trying to run. And she's clearly distraught. And Mariko hitting her with the fact that the house is cursed. Yeah. You can see the way that wounds Fuji like so clearly. And that is something that we cannot abide here on the Prestige TV podcast,

Joe. Anyone who hurts Fuji is our nemesis. So our list of enemies now includes Ishido, obviously, murdered her family, killed it, ended her family line, Mariko from present circumstances, and earthquakes, I guess, also are

sworn enemy. And I would say that pheasant for offending her. All rotting poultry everywhere. Yeah, well, the house falls on her later. Mariko says the house is cursed and then the house falls on Fuji later. Quite a metaphor.

We already did the Buntaro, John, you know, but Sakeyu piece of shit is a pretty great line reading from good old Cosmo Jarvis. Oh, it really is. By the way, my beloved Prestige TV podcast listeners, if you have not heard Andy Greenwald's

Cosmo Jarvis impersonation on the watch, Andy. I've been listening to The Watch for so long, and I have never laughed harder than I laughed at Andy's. It's so good. It's the Watch Hall of Fame material. Like, first ballot, get it in there. I was in my car, and I was just, like, screaming. Anyway, Andy, you're a legend.

Listen to last week's the watch. I'm sure he'll do it again. Listen to this week's the Watch. How could you not? He will not be able to resist, I'm sure. We already mentioned the wet pigeons in the crevice, but I will just repeat something I say on House of Aral all the time, which is that I hate a fucking crevice.

I hate them. Especially if it's leading the birds to be a little damp. It's really humid down there. The rising tides, they're being a little fast and loose with the pigeon situation. I completely agree. I would never put my pigeons in an ocean crevice. Never, not once. Okay.

Before we get that far, do we want to unpack anything about Mariko's past? Like she does tell us kind of what happened to her family in a way that, again, not to Game of Thronesify everything, but this is like some real Jamie Lannister shit, like her father killing a corrupt king or a corrupt leader in this case for like the, I think she literally says the good of the realm. Yeah, I think when she was like, and then he was like, burn them all and then my father was.

It's a little too clear a callback, perhaps. But again, Georgia Martin loves Shogun. So George R. Martin loves Dune. he loves Shogun, like all this stuff that you see is actually Shogan influence. He's one of us, ultimately. Coming back to us. But yeah, and I think

something we said last week is that we wanted, we wanted the employment of flashbacks to be delicate, and they just didn't do it at all. No need. On performance alone, stunning. It's incredible.

I would say this factors in, too, as we're unpacking Buntaro's shame and where he finds himself in this story. Like, he clearly has a lot a shame about Mariko's family situation. He calls her father a treacherous assassin. This is the same lord that Toranauga earlier

this season referred to as an honorable man. And so clearly there is some difference of opinion as to what his crimes actually were and his place in this broader world. But Buntaro is carrying a lot of that in the sense that even the implication that he should treat Mariko with more respect or at least

enough respect to not shoot arrows across her face is offensive to him. This idea that the man that father killed, it was the ruler before the tyco, the tyco that we met, right? So this idea that like you could do, yeah, similar to Jamie Linister, like you could do something for the good of the realm that benefits the new person in charge. Yeah. And you and your wife and your sons and your daughters will still have to pay the price of the, the indecorousness of that attempt with their lives. This is the rules that Blackthorn is having a really hard time understanding in this

world. Okay, so we get this, like, Mariko by the sea. It's gently snowing, absolutely beautiful. Madiko Blackthorn interaction. I will say, I think I found some of the things they said to each other to be a bit word salad of like, you know. If freedom is all you ever live for, you will never be free of yourself? Yeah. What is that one? I actually think Blackthorn's framing of, you know, you'll die to avenge your father or you'll live in anguish despite your husband.

Yeah. But basically what about you? Like reframing her life around herself makes sense? Yes. I can't say I understand, even within the philosophical differences of these cultures, what being free is in the context of not being able to be free of yourself. My life is mine and yours is yours also feels like it doesn't mean a lot to me. but like, I guess if it's like,

that's just punctuation, I think, right? If your only goal is freedom, like if that's all you're fighting for is your own freedom, that almost sounds to me like, you know, if you don't connect with other people and you're only out for yourself and you're only out for, you know, your own advantage and your freedom,

then are you, what are you really living or fighting or dying for? I would argue if that's the case, she should have just said that. I agree. To me, that's not really what she's saying. So word solidy, but like the emotion rang true to me so it didn't bother me that much.

Definitely. When she says, I will honor my duty as your translator, but from this day forward, the only words we will share will be from each other's, from other people's lips. Technically not true. That lasts two seconds, Monica. Like, honestly, she blows that in like the next interaction. But I, too have said things at the end of an argument that I then quickly went back on, so I understand you.

Eugito is dead. We are very sad. Blackthorn is pissed. And then he comes to visit Toranauga. and throws old-blown tantrum, which Tornaga calls out as a full-blown tantrum. Yes. And this is where Radico says,

and I put in all caps with periods in between in my notes, your words gave it meaning. Words matter. Have you not seen me sweating and struggling to interpret things? To avoid fights. Words matter. Well, she says, she does say that. But in translating for Blackthorne during this exchange,

he's talking about how life has no value here about the terrible thing that has happened to Ujjuro and her response to Torinaga is he's upset about a matter with his gardener which feels like a gross oversimplification of what has happened. It's really funny. We live and we die,

we control nothing beyond that. Again, a callback. It's almost like she called the earthquake into existence because here comes the earthquake. A big one. Yeah. And we are both residents of the Bay Area. Have you ever been in like a big earthquake?

Ramahoni. Only like an episode four earthquake. You know, a little shake. Maybe a book rattles off the shelf. That's about it. Yeah.

I was here for the Loma Prieta earthquake. It wasn't like this, though. This looks worse. None of your friends were swallowed by the ground. Nope. Nope. Though the, you know, the Bay Bridge did collapse one level down onto the other.

It was wild times. Blathorn, you know, as is his want. He's like, someone's in trouble over a cliff. I must save them, like scrambles down to save Tornaaga. I'm sure further endearing himself toornaga gives him a shitty hymn-like maneuver to get some of that mud out of his trachea. But it works.

I mean, like slapping someone on the back is not. I'm just saying if you've never taken first aid, you know, a responder course, that's not how you do it. But it works here. Nagakato was like right behind him. Yes. Ultimately fairly useless as per you. Just following, as usual. And then Torrnaga loses his swords in the dirt,

and so Blackthorn gives him Fugis, dads that were actually bought for like, what was it, three bags of rice? Yeah. This was so good. It was really good. I honestly don't know if there's a moment in this entire show so far.

I've loved more than this moment, of Blackthorn offering the swords. And you lay the groundwork in that previous conversation with Mariko. And maybe the proxicon, of that you would love if it was seated even earlier in understanding what the swords are and what they're meaning. But this is an episode about like subtext becoming text. Truths are spoken a little more plainly, including the fact that that sword doesn't actually mean anything in the sense that swords usually mean something. And it is like a weapon of a dead coward effectively.

But no one wants to tell Fuji that. The fact that Blackthorne knows it. And probably like kind of shitty, like shitty. Like not. They don't seem great. Like in great condition. Not even like meaningful, but they are also just sort of like three, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how many bags of rice are what they're worth, but three bags of rice.

It doesn't seem like it will get you a great sword. But what do we know about the rice to sword conversion rate? It's true. I don't. Top knots and manments at DMULECOM. Please. Educate us. But the scoffing laugh that Toranauga gives and also the genuine gratitude of the gesture.

And we're just coming out of this conversation about how words are what's giving things meaning. And this gesture of something that's giving something, meaning like Blackthorn's whole education in this episode around the pheasant is this idea that these culture, like these cultural norms are not just there for the sake of nothing. Right. Like he's been playing with live ammo this whole time. He just didn't really know it yet.

And him being put in position of leadership in his own house has led to this realization that like, oh, I say this thing and it happens. I say this thing and it matters in a way that I think there's understandable lag time given the culture he's coming from, but him starting to internalize, I'm giving you these swords and that gesture means something. Like these swords means something to you to the point that

as soon as you are found to be alive, Mariko clocks the swords are gone and is frantically digging in the dirt trying to find them. I'm going to offer you mine. And this is what that means and this is what this moment means. That felt like five episodes of payoff crystallizing in a second. And I really appreciated it. him understanding a nuance in the way that he failed to understand it with the pheasant.

Like, yes, Fuji, like, did not, was not able to communicate to him in that moment. But everyone around him was, like, retching for days around that pheasant. And he, like, he's blithely ignoring it because he's like, oh, this is what I do. Yeah. This is what we do. This is what my culture does. And just, like, ignoring the impact that that was having on everyone else's lives. and something that I

you know a slight difference in this is when oftentimes in the book we are just inside people's heads and their thought processes and when you interpret that when you have to adapt that for the screen you have to make certain changes

to unless you're going to do an inner monologue which is a cheap way around it and so in the book it's John John like goes out to the cliff and is just like pacing back and forth and he's like these fucking you know these barbarians they kill this old man. I can't believe it. They're the worst. Oh, wait. This is my fault. Oh, shit. I did this. This is my fault. I killed him. He goes to this whole thought process to the point of I killed him. And there's something we sort of like hear him say aloud to Mariko. You know, it's not an internal monologue. It's something it like sort of processes through with her, but he's just sort of like my fundamental inability to understand the nuances of what's going on around me resulted in this man dying. And I'm not going to change.

I'm not going to talk them out of their way. So I need to better understand this so that another lovely, funny, survive the silkworms of Korea only to be killed by the pheasant. Fessons do kill you if you take them off down the hook too soon. Like, let's just make sure that doesn't happen again. Earthquake happens, swallows half of the army that, Toranauga brought to Adjudo in the first place, I would say at least half.

Good chunk. Tough to see. Yujito gets blamed for being a spy. Good, good thinking for Monaghi. He's like, my friend's dead. Let's just while we're at it. Very convenient earthquake from that perspective. Again, like, I don't think what Toranauga gave him this assignment,

she knew there'd be so many bodies to pin this on. But here's a very convenient one that's not even earthquake related, honestly. And then we get, and Fuji's injured, and John is like, you know, sitting with her and being very, like, tender. The back to back of John holding her hand and also him going back out into the garden to reposition the rock. Man, that's great shit. And, like, the score is so fucking good. Like, it's so good. You get this, like, very fuzzy synth with the reverb cranked, like, all the way up.

And it just, it hits me so hard. Like, they really do play those moments so well. And the way that he just like scoops the gravel up around. Yes. The rock invokes the opening credits. And it's just, it's all very beautiful. Also invokes a person who's paying attention, like who had been watching what Ujiro was doing in the first place. I love this idea of like, this is a thing I can fix or this is a thing that is stable.

This is a thing that has endured. My house is in ruins, but I can fix this. Or something that is mentioned in the book is that this character who's actually, his name is a little different from Ujjjjjoum. in the book. But like, this character has positioned the rock just so that the sun hits, like, the veins in it and it makes it sort of like reflect the light and glow. So this idea of like that precision of paying attention to the beauty of nature. And the beauty of things is just like an added layer that I love. I wanted to shout out, we're almost done here, but I wanted to shout out this email that we got from our listener, Josh, about this idea of the house that is

easily destroyed and then quickly rebuilt that we. got last week that sort of comes home to ruse this week. And he says, I found the imagery of the house that is destroyed and rebuilt, evoked in episode four to be really interesting concerning Japanese religious history and Mariko's character. It immediately called to mine the, forgive my princess, Isay Shrine, I think, in Japan, dedicated to the sun goddess Amaterasu, the most important deity in Japan's Shinto belief system. Significantly, for the imagery of Shogun, the shrine is ritualistically deconstructed and rebuilt every 20 years. Other Shinto shrines in Japan are cyclically rebuilt as well.

I couldn't help but wonder if the dialogue in the show was on an oblique reference to this process of periodic reconstruction of a certain shrines in Shinto. This fascinating ritual process implies that things can simultaneously be permanent and transitory or mutable. Dare I say even more permanent in their mutability. The sun itself, an enduring symbol of Japan appears to us as both permanent and transitory rising and setting as it does with a cyclical regularity. And I couldn't help but feel that this relates to Mariko's identity. Madiko self is coded as a dual-natured person. Early on when Toranaga asked her if translating for heretic conflicts with her faith, she retorts that she is of two hearts. Here we have a woman who is ostensibly devout Catholic

in full communion with the church, but also in full communion with the codes, customs and ritual observances of feudal Japan, so much of which has its roots in traditional Shinto belief. You could even say that she was disassembled and reconstructed, now fully Japanese and Catholic. She retains without herself the seemingly opposing forces of East and West integrated fully into one person. What a email? The email was even longer, so that was sort of like my condensed version of it. Great stuff from Josh.

Love that. But I think that like, and I think the title of email was something like what it means to be of two hearts living in a house that can be, you know, destroyed and rebuilt. And I just, I think this book and the show delivering these, this imagery to us that threads throughout multiple episodes is a gift. What a gift? We don't even know how good we have it. Like, this show's going to be over in five weeks. We're just going to have to go back to whatever, whatever else is on.

Well, Acolyte and House of the Dragon are coming. Okay, I'm actually pretty psyched about Akelet. I know Ackleit looks so sick. Let's discuss. And then anything else we already. We already mentioned the Lady Oceiva return, but anything else? She says, time for politics has come to an end. Counsel will answer to me and then gives just, I mean,

Fuji is the queen of looks in this episode, but this is a close second from Lady Oceba. I just loved it. I can't wait for her to get more screen time. More skin in the game, more action. Like, let's get her on the front lines verbally sparring with people as quickly as possible, please. I also wrote, and I don't even like this word, what I did, right? I was like,

Oceiba Cucks is Shita. That's what that scene felt like to be. Let Oceba Cook. Yeah. All right. Anything else do you want to say before we go? I would say one more thing about that scene at the end of Blackthorn in the garden, repositioning the rock.

If we want to go back to the idea of like, a garden is just a place for growing without a good rock, like, again, this inherited knowledge he's gotten from watching Ujuro work. Like, I love the rock as a symbol of restraint in this episode of this idea that him understanding the balance of things in this world. And the fact that sometimes it's not about the explosive answer. Sometimes it's not about even unchecked growth. It's about repositioning the rock and smoothing the sand around it and going another day.

This has been Shogun episode five. We are distraught that we only have five more episodes to call on this wonderful show. We'll be back next week, episode six. If all goes according to plan, we should have a guest or two on the show next week. but, you know, no promises until it actually happens. Thanks to the incredible Kai Grady, our NFL expert and wonderful producer who fills our hearts with joy is the stable rock in our garden. Thank you so much. Kai Grady.

And Rahmahoney, again, your assignment for the week is to come up with some NBA comps for me for Blackthorne for next week or next week. Lady O'Sheba. Who's to say? Top Nots and manbuns. com. Thank you for incredible emails, as always, and we'll see you next week. Bye.