The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Episode 7 Recap

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

Jo and Rob return to break down the seventh episode of ‘Shogun.’ They discuss the aftermath of Saeki’s betrayal, how Nagakado’s fate is a major departure from the book, and the many question marks surrounding Toranaga’s plan (or lack thereof). Along the way, they talk about the increasingly complicated dynamic between Mariko and Buntaro. Later, they consider whether or not “Crimson Sky” is just one big misdirection. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nathan Hubbard, spring has sprung, the birds are chirping, and the pop girls are pop-girling. Oh, and you know what that means, Nora Prenziotti. Every single album is back. This spring is packed with new releases from some of the biggest pop stars in the world, including our girl Taylor Swift, and we'll be covering it all. We'll of course break down every angle on the tortured poets department, and we'll also cover new music from Beyonce, Duolipa, Maggie Rogers, Casey Musgraves, and Ariana Grande. It's Pop Girl Spring on every single album.

New episodes starting March 28th. On Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. The Presti-Tee's TV podcast feed, I'm Joanna. I'm Rob Mawin. And we're here to talk about Shogun, as we do every week. We're here to talk about the latest episode, episode 7, stick of time. Rob, I can't believe we're only three more episodes left of this. How are you feeling about that?

Worse and worse, honestly. You know, our sticks of time are rapidly... I know. I know. We're getting down to the ash here. I'm upset. All right. So this episode was written by Matt Lambert, directed by Takeshi Fukunaga. And as we talked to Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo last week, they told us to sort of think about 6, 7, 8 as a sort of trio of episodes. So this would be the middle of sort of a three-hour chunk of story that they're trying to tell. So I thought that was like a really interesting way. to think about this episode. Yeah, is this the trio where Lady Gin runs shit? Sounds like it to me. I love that.

Love her scene. That might have been my favorite scene in the whole episode. Very good. With love and respect to Nagakato for dear, may his ponytail forever bounce in the afterlife.

Major book departures are happening right now. This is something that Justin also warned us about last week when he was sort of like things start to blend together. There's like a lot of book left and not a lot of episodes left.

So there's just going to be some major slicing and dicing happening. And I don't think it's a spoiler to say, but you can correct me if I'm wrong and then we can cut it out. Nagato doesn't die in the book. So this is like a big choice they made for this episode. So I'm really excited to talk to you about this. They're like, he doesn't do much for the rest of the book. So like it's not like we're cutting out any major thing he has to,

but this is like a big, big-ish death that they put in this episode that isn't in the book that they want to do something with. So when we get to that, it's like, let's talk about what that accomplishes in this episode that they felt like they needed to add to the story at this point.

Do you know what I mean? That's shocking to me. I know. Especially with the way his death is seated in this episode and really seated throughout the season in terms of how eager and ambitious he is and how much he wants to get into a fight.

It just seemed like a character who was thirsting for some kind of violent and one way or the other. cruising for the final bruises. A stick of time as an episode title. There's the obvious interpretation of what Lady Jen asks for, but any other interpretations that you're thinking of when you think of the title in this episode. The only other one I would think of would be if you want to read Toranaga's actions as, you know,

obviously there's kind of two primary ways to read what's going on with him. Either his plans have been foiled and he is really up against the ropes. or we are in phase one of Operation Crimson Sky in some former fashion and he's putting on this elaborate act and this elaborate play of, oh my God, I need to go into the woods and really contemplate this.

Four, I would say, kind of putting in his sticks of time, you know, really stretching this thing out. I got to flip this stone over a gate for a while in the foggy woods. Yeah, I think that's the question of the episode. Is this a man contemplating his fate? Or is this a man putting on a show? Lady Gin certainly thinks this is a show. And I think that's a really interesting exchange.

And even more interesting than the exchange is what it results in, which is him deciding to endorse her plans. Yes. And that, to me, says something about how he values her insights in that scene, right? Okay. So if this is an elaborate performance from Tornaaga, a cunning man, a man of guile, trickster, as he is called multiple times this episode, then this is such an interesting, this is like what a lot of people when they're at the tail end of a show, building up to some sort of anticipated action or conflict, would call either a table setting episode or a placeholder episode. Because like, with love and respect, to our daily departed Nagakado, like not a lot happens in this episode, kind of, right?

Yes and no. Toranaug's brother shows up and betrays him immediately. That's a pretty big turn of events. But like how different is our situation than it was last week? What do you think? I think it's different in this way.

whatever you may think of Toronaga's plan or non-plan, everyone around him, Nagakato clearly included, is kind of twisting in the wind and really struggling. Most of them want to die or want to kill someone else at this point in the story. And clearly him not cluing people in if he does have a plan is starting to take a kind of toll. And so what has changed is that he feels in a way more isolated than ever. He feels like his supporters are starting to wane or waver

or question what he's actually up to, to the point where when he does finally issue this surrender and agrees to go back and face the counsel and faces his ultimate fate, at least ostensibly, like the rage and the confusion and the despondence that you see on everyone's faces, I think that is a big development. I think that's fair to say.

I think it's a lot of internal movement. Yeah. And a lot of stillness, contemplation in the fog, in the rain and the, you know what I mean? And that's the sort of mood that's sitting around the episode, we're just like sitting watching the fuse burned down on the stick of incense is sort of how it feels. And that in terms of like how much time do we have left,

how many more sticks of incest do we have, as Toranauga, I'm paraphrasing insets. I think that's something that you can sort of cast around all these characters. Omi is thinking about like, you know, make my village great. again, like, what did I lose? Like, what... Sure. What has already burnt out and gone?

Yes, craving a simpler life. Yeah. Mariko is ready to be done. Yep. With everything. Has been for a long time. My stick is art. Fuji, where is she sitting in all of this?

Do you feel like after this episode? I mean, she clearly has ambitions to die. Yeah. Has plans in place. Already kind of has seen her own future and whatever is ahead for her she's ready to pull her on cord, so to speak. Yeah, and it feels like the big move for Fuji, the big scenes for Fuji in this episode, right,

are receiving the ashes from her grandfather. And her grandfather's saying, what if your stick isn't burned down? What if you just have like boxes and boxes of sticks of incense to come? And you could just celebrate what's to come. You don't have to think of your life is over, that you have much more to come. And we see her training for battle a bit.

And then she has that interaction with Nagakata, which is like one of many sort of pebbles that are stacked on top of him that lead him to his ultimate end. Our guy is just like putting on a masterclass of misinterpreting advice. I agree with you that it's wild that this isn't in the book because it really only feels like it could have ever gone here for him. On that sort of like, we're at a holding pattern in this episode a bit. when Blackthorn is talking to Mariko

about his ship, which is becoming a very recurring preparation for him, he says, anything is better than standing here, pissing around, right? So there's that, like, impatience with the fog and the rain

and the standing around and the waiting. And then Tornaaga, the description of him is, our Lord's in contemplation. Literally pissing around. That's what he's doing. Our Lord is in contemplation. The other,

the main thread of this episode, other than that sort of like time ticking, running out, all of that is this question of fate. So Yabushige says right before he has his little skirmish with John on the shore, he says, I'm bound to this fate, right? I'm either going to die at the edge of this cliff or I'm going to die here, I'm going to die there. Like, it's just, death is just nipping at my heels constantly. And I'm constantly like just ever so slightly escaping it. But then it, you know, comes back again in the form of my.

Lieutenant's head in a box or... Rest in peace to Professor Ipatch. Yeah, Dr. Ipatch, we hardly knew you. The beginning flashback of Toranauga's first battle. Yeah. Mizoguchi, the warlord that he eventually decapitates

says, it was fate that forced me into declaring an unwinnable war. Right? And Blackthorn says when Tornaga is is having another frustrating conversation with Blackmore,

and Blackmore is like, my ship, my ship, right? Black woman says, please tell him, I am ready for whatever fate may bring, and Mariko translates that for him. But then the key interaction on the fate front is this Torinaga Lady Jin interaction, where he says, my fate is written, right? My incense stick has been lit.

I only got this much time left on it. And she says, fate is like a sword useful only to those who can wield it. I was born and a gutter raised as an ukule. Most would curse such a loathsome fate, but my hardships taught me ambition and guile. It made me the most successful lady in Isu, just as your hardships made you into the cunning man you are today. So the question about fate. Is it resignation to something?

Is it something inescapable? Or is it something you can wield like a weapon? I think is the main question of this episode. Where are you sitting? after all of this, Rob. This is why I think it was so smart to, for what I believe is the first time in the series, give us flashes of what is in Toranaga's head.

He's been pretty inscrutable throughout most of this show. And here we finally have an idea of something specific that is on his mind, which is this encounter with Mizaguchi, what was it, 46 years ago. Right. And we know he's thinking of him, and we know he's thinking of that moment,

but we don't know why. And so we don't know if it is the similarities of himself, feeling pulled into an unwinnable war. We don't know if it's him deconstructing his own legend, as he kind of does and as other characters do throughout this episode. Or is he seeing something else in that moment in the act of surrender? Is he seeing an opportunity that could facilitate his plants? I love that we don't know.

I love the way that the characterization of Tornaga to this point, obviously all the characters are spinning out, trying to figure out what he's up to. But I feel like I'm spinning out trying to figure out what he's up to. I am inclined to believe Lady Gin, based on the circumstantial evidence in this episode, obviously him leaving himself exposed in this way to his brother's deception. It feels very coincidental.

Like the whole idea that Sayaki would roll up with a whole army and that would somehow go unnoticed in Osaka, feels very improbable to a level that Tornaga could never overlook. And so this must be on some level part of a plan. Now, whether that plan is working or not, I think is up for debate. but he isn't as inscrutable as ever as to what he's actually doing, but it's clear he's up to something.

This is the only line I have highlighted in my notes today, which is from our madam who says, it's only that it doesn't make sense. Any spy could have told you, why leave your weekend garrison so exposed? Why make such a careless mistake? It's just so out of character. Yep.

For someone who we have seen making plans within plans, why on earth would he be caught off guard in this moment? moment precisely. And I'm sure Tornaga would want his enemies to believe that it's in his desperation, perhaps. He's turned to the one family member, the one estranged family member he can reach out to. He's putting himself out on a limb because he's a desperate man who doesn't have other options. And that really feels like what he wants you to think about himself in his circumstances. It's, I think, oh, really, I already mentioned this a couple episodes ago, but a really clever thing

that the book does is only at the end gradually lets us inside Toranaugas head. We're in like the third person, but like perspective of so many of these characters were bouncing around their heads. And we're not allowed inside Toranauga's head to know the extent of his plans until the end of the book. And so you're keeping the reader at bay. You're keeping all of your closest lieutenants at bay. And I guess to go back to the Nagakato thing is like what is the cost of that kind of strategy, I suppose, is the question here. because, you know, Toranauga has been frustrated with his son throughout the series and just, like, aggravated that his son is not learning all the right lessons. But, like, there are only two times in this episode where Toranauga loses his cool.

And one is Tamariko, and we'll talk about that a little later when he's like, you have to choose. But the other is when Nagakato is about to, like, sort of accept the letter requiring him to commit Sepuku. Good Lord. When people try to serve you papers, don't take them. But he's like, he's so platt. His brother just like turns on him in this moment. He's so placid and calm and taking all of it. And then his son reaches out to take like his own death sentence in his hands.

And he's like, absolutely not. No. And so he cares whether or not his son lives or dies is something, you know, you'd be like, well, of course. Well, I don't think that's something you can necessarily assume in this world. but I think this character does care about this young man who he is trying to mold into a warrior in his image. And so then this is perhaps if Tornaga is playing the long game here, a long con, that this is the cost.

This is what he loses in order to maybe win something else later on. And he seems to be losing things across the board right now in terms of those relationships with people. And it's the cost of doing this kind of strategic business. I'm really curious as we get into episode eight, you know, I'm sure we'll diagram and kind of dissect everything that happens in Nagakato, leading to Nagakado's death at some point today. But like, Omi's in potential involvement in that.

And like, did he egg him on? Did he facilitate a connection with Kiku that allowed Nagakato to sneak in the back door to try to mount his assault and kill his uncle? And will that kind of toll exists, within Omi too. Like he's a character who fancies himself as a kind of schemer,

but this is the first like real human cost of any of his plan so far. Right. He's like, I know how to play with this kid. We are, we can't a guy together.

We know how to do this. And he's like, oh, no. Yeah, I'll be curious of how Omi feels about what happens to Nagakado. I had told you before we started recording that I was sort of like looking in the corners

of the brothel to see if Omi was there because it felt like he should have been there. And certainly if he wasn't there, we don't know actually what his level of involvement was. No. But the fact that Kiku seems to be involved, right?

Like, let's talk about Chekhov's sex toys, I guess, because, like, we talked about Kiku's arsenal of Akutra Mall that she brings up in the book to Blackthorn last week. And I was like, well, they decided on to do that. Well, they're back on the menu this week. And she leaves the room to, quote, unquote, go get them. but really she's just like, I got to get the fuck out of here.

Well, the play needs to be elevated, you know, and it certainly was. That was so clearly, you wait here, I'm going to take myself out of the line of danger.

So Kikku knows is going on. Yes. So, given the Omi's connection to Kikku, does that leave Omi's fingerprints all over this? But it didn't seem like when, so when Omi and Nagato

are having that conversation in the hot spring, what's your assessment of, Omi didn't seem to be like on his manipulative shit in that scene. He was so wistful. So what's your interpretation of that interaction between Omi and Nagakato? I took it as almost like these two continuing to bond in a way. I think there have been points in the show where Omi saw Nagakato as a falcon, right?

As someone he could dispatch and control and manipulate. This seemed more like two friends earnestly venting their frustrations. You know, for Omi it is the state of this village. And what has become of this area? And what has become of all of them in their lives? Because as Mariko tells us in this episode, like half of this army and all these people, including, I assume, the vassals first in line,

are basically bound to commit sepaku if everything goes to the council's way and Toranauga is executed. And all of those things happen. And so coming to terms with the end is a pretty common theme for a lot of these characters. Obviously, Yabushige is doing that in his own way, you know, blowing off some steam with Blackthorn.

And this is Omi's version of that. kind of venting to a character who he's gotten pretty close to. And so I didn't see it as a manipulation in this moment. Me neither. But if Nagakato comes to him off screen and says, like, this is what I want to do, would he facilitate that with Kiku, like a person he's clearly very close to or at least believes he's very close to? It just seems to counter to what Omi says in that scene when he says, every good thing we

had is now gone because we reached for more. He seems to be sort of preaching inaction, right? Let's retrench, let's rethink, you know, not like let's keep figuring out and scheming and manipulating. So it really almost feels like something that Nagakato decided to do on his own, even though it seems like something Omi should be involved in. Omi is shit stirring in this episode, but it is about Blackthorn and Mariko. Yeah. And to what end? I don't even really understand.

Here's my big question. When, I'm sorry, is it, I was saying Ginny. Is it Gin? Lady Gin? I believe it's Lady Gin. Okay, I believe you. I was actually really shocked when she sort of let slip that Mariko tidbit allusion to Omi outside the tea house. Only because she gave it away for free. And it just doesn't seem like something she would just care, not carelessly,

calculatedly, but like give away for free like that. Yes. I don't understand the angle of that. What do you feel like is the angle there? I'm baffled by that one, especially because we, seen enough of Lady Gin coming into this episode, and certainly in this episode, to know how smart she is and how calculating and how clever she is. So she must be playing at something. But what she has to gain from, say, a wedge being driven between Blackthorn and Merrico,

between, like, Buntaro being agitated by the situation, I don't know how any of the after effects of that conversation. Serve her. Serve her in any way, really. Yeah. Yeah. That was confusing to me. But it does work on Buntaro. Because Buntaro has this sort of confrontation with Tornaaga, where he asks that Mariko be left behind, that he be able to, you know, kill Blackthorn. And Toranauga says, well, are you accusing Mariko of something? If you're accusing Blackthorn or something, you're accusing Mariko of something. You have to take both their heads at once. Is that something you're going to do?

And he says, no, and he leaves. And then Mariko says, like, that's when she says, hey, can I, can I die yet? Is this place? Pretty place. How about now? What's interesting about this when it comes to the book, it's an interesting choice because this interaction in the book is just between Buntaro and Mariko, where they have a really fascinating, kind of beautiful conversation, just the two of them, talking about Blackthorn a bit,

talking about wanting to die, can we die when this is all over? what should we do, all this sort of stuff like that. And it was surprising to me because it seemed like the kind of scene that these writers really liked to write. And I was sort of surprised they made it this slightly more performative and involving Torunaga version of the conversation. The result is largely the same. Nobody's dead. Things are a little bit more out in the open. But it lacks that kind of odd intimacy.

of the book version, which just goes to underline the things we like that they've been doing with Buntaro, where we're like, he is kind of the worst, but also a human that we understand. And when we see his vulnerabilities, that's an interesting and

compelling thing for us to see. So I was sort of intrigued by the version that they went with for the show. How did it, not having that basis of comparison, how did that interaction sit with you? Well, I wonder if some of the reason for that change could be that this version that we have had on screen, but the TV Buntaro, is he capable of that

sort of conversation that happened in the book? Is the relationship between this version of Mariko and this version of Buntar? Does that even make sense that they would have that sort of intimacy? Because they really haven't shown their relationship that way. I think they've displayed the Buntaro clearly cares about Mariko and is miffed and feels rejected by the fact that she has never warmed up to him, despite the fact that he thought over time she might. But he doesn't want her life to end. Clearly, every year when she comes to him begging to die, he keeps putting it off. He keeps saying that she needs to live.

And when put to the spot in this moment, I think that's kind of Torinaga's value is putting a very fine point on what it is that Buntaro is asking and saying, like, if this is what you believe and this is what you really want, these are the consequences of that. Are you willing to live with that? And forcing that character who throughout this episode is like twitching Matt every time he sees Blackthorn and Maraco together. I really appreciate the soundless performance that's going into all of his anger

and that he's carrying through these scenes. But yeah, I'm not sure, given the Buntaro that we know that he would have the kind of conversation he might have had in the book. I think my favorite moment was when Blackthorne like fumbled with his chopsticks and Buntaro was like,

this guy? You like this guy? Are you kidding me? You can't even eat. All right. So this is what Tornornorn. And Ranaugas says to Mariko after Buntaro leaves, and she's asking about death. And he's talking about, well, before she says the thing about his death and he's talking about loyalty.

And he says, you keep saying that. You constantly confuse your priorities with this barbarian. There is no confusion. No more having things two ways. We are one thing or the other. Are you with me in our fight against your father's enemies? Or are you with a barbarian? I order you to choose.

So an uncharacteristically loud and threatening moment from him, but containing those subtle manipulations that he is known for. Are you with me in our fight against your father's enemies? Gaslight, gatekeep, girl boss, Toranauga. He is on his bullshit. There's no doubt about it. We talked about this last week where he told her a story And our question last week was was that the truth

Or was that a story that was convenient to him To break Mariko to the fist And have her become his most loyal Falcon and all of this Where are you standing here in episode 7? Yeah, she's put in this position here where in no universe is she going to pick Blackthorn. It wouldn't make any sense, politically speaking, even if she does want to die for her to say,

I choose him over this person I have pledged to serve. So that would never happen. So she's put into an impossible situation. I read this as like maybe the clearest example of the way that Toranauga's manipulations are taking a toll. Like she was told up front, you are allowed to be of two minds and of two hearts. You are allowed to be caught between things.

And now she has put to a. ultimatum, as you said, a very uncharacteristic way of Torinaga to do. In the same way that Blackthorn is left wondering, like, what is my job here exactly? Like, why do you keep giving me all these things if I'm not actually allowed to do anything? In the same way that Buntaro is so puzzled

by what he's supposed to make of Mariko's new station and relationship, even by the end of this episode, Hiramatsu, who I would say is the one guy you would expect to be plugged in on the plan. It's like, wait, what are we doing now? We're surrendering now. Yeah.

Like, no one seems to have any idea what they're supposed to do or what's going on. And that leads to characters wanting to die all over the place. Like, death is in the air in every corner of this episode long before Nagakato eats it. Slips on someone else's kimono. The first time I watched it, I was like, oh, man, how embarrassing. He slipped on his own. And then I watched it again. I was like, oh, no, he slipped on his uncle's kimono in the water.

I thought he just slipped on like a wet rock. No, it's the, it's like the trail end of his, like. long white robe that he wraps around himself. And he's all tangled in it in the water. And you think he's the one trepped up by it. But it's like, yeah, it's still like sort of splayed across the rock. And that's what he slips on. It's so embarrassing. And so horrifying that he doesn't die right away. And he's just sort of like gasping and choking. Where is the beauty in that after all? Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about zebbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate-to-severe obstructive sleep apnea,

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Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar.

Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. Tornauga is weaving a tale for Mariko of like, this is your life's purpose. This is your father's quest. This is your father's vengeance we're talking about. This is a man who knows the power of a story and a legend

and twisting a story one way or another. And that brings us back to that flashback 46 years ago. The story that his brother tells of the beheading. Yeah. And then the real story that we get from Hiramatsu, which is it was not. nine times before that head came off. What a fucking mess you made.

Less execution, more pinata, I think. Okay. Okay. So I know that Justin and Rachel and a lot of people would prefer we never compare Shogun to Game of Thrones, but I have to be who I am and say that... Live your truth, Joe. This is just, could not possibly be giving stronger the young grey joy vibes for this guy, right?

So if you were a Game of Thrones Watcher, you will know that there are several times that young men who were brought up by Ned Stark were forced to behead people. And Rob Stark, one slice clean. John Snow, one slice clean. Theon Greyjoy, real mess, a hack job. It was really ugly, embarrassing, terrible, horrifying thing that Theongray Joy had to do. And I was thinking about Theon Greyjoy again when we hear that Tornaugue was auctioned off,

given away. Yeah. You know, the Theon Greyjoy story. This is the main paragraph that I can find in the book about this moment. Toranaaga's war had begun when he was six and had been ordered as hostage into the enemy camp, then reprieved, then captured by other enemies, and pawned again to be reponed until he was 12. At 12, he had led his first patrol and won his first battle.

So that's the forge. That's the fire that Toranauga was, like, created in the crucible. What about that horrifying, whether you shit your pants on your horse or not, story of Torinaga? What does it tell you about the man that he has become? It's really interesting. I think the way he chooses to in some ways indulge the legends of his own exploits. And then in private company, especially with Hiramatsu, is wondering, like, why didn't you fact-check this in real time? Like, why didn't you correct this?

I don't know that he entirely knows what to do with it sometimes. Clearly, it is of use to him. but in the same way, it's used to his brother who I feel like in telling the story of his boy warlord brother and the one hit K.O. That he has supposedly issued,

he's saying something that, at least it's by my read, he knows that Toranaga knows... Is not true. It's not true. And there's this mythology about him, and he's kind of jabbing his brother about it while also indulging his nephew.

And so it serves these dual purposes for a lot of characters in the story at this point. Obviously, if you want to spread about the quote-unquote great Yoshitournaga, Asayaki says, then yeah, you can believe in the one-stroke act of mercy or Sepaku or execution or however you want to characterize it. But the reality, whether a boy may or may not have shit his pants, is much more complicated than that. Let's talk about Seiki. So this is Aetakuno, and are you a Tokyo Vice watcher? I'm not because I am not an Ansel Elis.

Gordwatcher. You, me, same. We are the same exact page. I've heard season two is good. I wouldn't know I won't watch it because of my Ansel feelings. But I did watch Alice in Borderland. And so I recognize him from that. But people might recognize him more readily from Tokyo Vice.

Late in the game entry into the story. So much so that when I was reading this part of the book, I was like, are they even going to do this? Like, are they going to bring this character in? Like, so close to the end of a season. a one-season story of television. But here we are. Episode 7 entrance from this character.

Not much time to make an impression. And what an impression he makes? Is it the height of the ponytail that does it for you? Is it the drip? The drip is on point. Or is it the attitude? Here's when I fell in love with this. character, this terrible person.

Do tell. You had no choice but to summon the vast legions of your mediocre brother. Mediote, with a smile on his face. He's got a great smile. He's got some great lines. The fits are absolutely tremendous. He's taken some jabs at Tornaga in ways that no other character is really allowed to do, which I think is pretty endearing.

He comes in with big, like, Lando Calrissian energy, down to, like, that you've got a lot of guts, coming here front and then quick flip into a joke. And then I think it just disarms all of us very quickly. Like as an audience, the characters in the story, it makes us feel very endeared to him very quickly and feel like, okay, maybe this might actually work. So that when you do get to the dinnertime betrayal,

I think the rug is going to be pulled out from under some people. I think it's easy to read this as like, okay, this plan might actually have some legs to it up until that moment. The question then, and I don't know the answer to this, because I still am trying to read only what we're watching week to week. It's getting more complicated to do that. Your discipline is appreciated, though. Thank you.

I don't, if Torinaaga is pulling a long con of some kind in this episode, which you and I think he is. I feel like it's got to be. I don't know if his brother's in on it or not. What's your vibe on that? Oh, I would say no. You would say no. I would say he understands his brother well enough to know,

one, that whatever the council or Ishido might offer him would be a tremendous glow-up. And I don't know if that he knew he would be offered a spot on the council, but there would be some kind of carrot. And he knows his brother well enough that he might jump at the carrot. And so I suspect it's more that he is playing his brother like a falcon more so than there's any kind of actual understanding or alliance here. I do love, though, that when he does roll up,

we're kind of driving up the tension and the anxiety of that moment by stoking the anxiety of the characters. There's something to the fact that when they're all waiting for the army to arrive and the procession to arrive, even Buntaro is kind of worried. And he's nudging Mariko, like, you've got to keep your guy in line right now. This is an important moment.

Like, we all got to be on point. Yeah, what is... Hiramatsu says, you know, if they don't get Psyche and his men, then this war is lost before our swords are even wet, is what he says. Gross, but thank you. Disgusting.

A lot of talk about swords being wet in this episode in various capacities. I do love this as an example of when your family shows up and starts telling stories about you to maybe like friends who've never met your family or whatever and all of a sudden you look

so different. All of a sudden you're just like you regress to who you were in the family when that person shows up. So I thought that was very like human. Tornaga is like keeping like the poker face and stiff upper live pretty well but like when he tells the

of him shitting himself and riding the horse. And everyone's like, what? I mean, it was just, yeah, that was a great, that was a great moment. Real silence around the Thanksgiving dinner table in that moment. I love the way the whole dinner scene plays out because there are like all these little sidebars happening, right? You have the Omi and Buntaro thing going on, Mariko and Blackthorn are clearly chatting about something.

And then meanwhile, Nagakata is just like stoking his uncle, like trying to hear more and more of these stories up until the moment that like everything crashes to, halt. And it's just like the way it goes dead in that room, I really appreciate it. The Niyakato, the thing that is so interestingly complicated about the Psyaki character is like, however embittered he might be to be in his brother's shadow, however much he might be waiting for this opportunity to one up his brother or, you know, step out on his own or whatever it is, there is that, like, sort of wistful tenderness that he has for Nagakato, right?

Because when Nagakato is talking about, like, sorry for this cop, I regret that my brain went here and I can't stop it. But in the musical Hamilton, have you heard of it? Oh, wow. All right. I'm sorry. But Alexander Hamilton is talking about how he wants war to happen because war is a way for him to prove himself. He is a bastard, orphan, son of whore. I don't know if you've heard, but war is a

great equalizer when it comes to class in that case. In this case, for Nagakato, it's like, you know, I will not be able to prove myself as a man, as a human, as a warrior, as a whatever, unless we have war. So I want war. And I think Toranauga, for all his talk of Crimson Sky, would like to avoid war at all costs because he experienced it as a 12-year-old boy, right? And he, the Mizoguchi, the warlord that he eventually again beheads at the beginning and the flashback, when he says it was a fate that forced me into declaring an unwinnable war, I really feel like Toranauga, the lesson he took from that is like, do not get forced into any kind of battle if you can avoid it, right? And Saiki says to Nagakado, why is it that those who have never

in battle are the most eager for one, right? You don't know what you're asking for. You have no idea what you're asking for. And so, like, there's a part of me, Crimson Sky is the name of the ninth episode. So there's a part of me that wonders, are we going to get a huge sack of Osaka, siege, battle, sequence? Are we going to get a big ship battle that I was, like,

felt like we must get because Blackthorne keeps talking about a ship? Like, is that happening? Or is this the kind of story? where the ultimate victory is thinking your way out of having to have the battle in the first place. What do you think? I think it very well could be. I'm leaning more that way, especially even the name Crimson Sky, is so evocative of like big, violent, flaming action, a bloody occurrence.

It feels like something you would come up with as a deception to make people think that you're coming in with blunt force when in reality you're being led. through the gates of Osaka into the heart of, you know, into the lion's den in which you can maneuver in all sorts of ways, right? Like, there's lots of moves that Toranauga has yet to play,

even as he seems trapped in a corner. And the contrast between, as you're saying, that slow playing style and that avoidance where Tornaug has avoided actual battles and actual violence in every instance versus Nagakado, not just wanting to fight, but repeatedly, like, there's this motif of comparing it to being with a woman for the first time.

Yeah. Like the eagerness with which he is running into that, to the point where at the end, when he does show up to kill his uncle, his uncle laughs at him and says like, oh, so you're finally ready to become a man now here in this tea house. Like that idea and the conflation of those things is like, you know,

the fact that you call it that means you're not ready for it to bar from Arrested Development. Like he's not prepared for what he's trying to do. We only call on the finest text here. Hamilton Arrested Development. I hear the first kill on the battle, is better than your first woman is what he says. And the look he gets from both Buntaro and Yawashige when he says that.

And Yomishige's saying depends on the woman. But like that like these. What a fucking legend this guy. These seasoned vets who are like, why do we have to keep listening to this ponytail teenager? I mean, spoiler, guys, you don't have to anymore. But like, they're just like, they're so seasoned. They've seen a lot. And they're just like, this kid.

Are you kidding me? What are you saying? Buntaro's like, wait, who's saying this? Yeah. And Nakakato's response is basically, people are saying, people are saying it. Many people are saying. Many people. This question of going directly at the thing versus going around it, we, as we mentioned

last week, we had such a great chat with Justin and Rachel, we cut very little. But one thing we did cut was, and I want to make sure that we bring it up, is this answer that Rachel gave, sort of about the difference, the main difference between Blackthorn and Toranauga. And this idea that Blackthorn, and maybe as represented. of Eastern versus Western way of thinking, but I think neither Justin nor Rachel we're inclined to be that reductive about.

So let's just put it on the characters and say, and say Blackthorns approach is going directly at the thing. Give me the ship. I got a plan. I can do this. You know, we need this many men. We got to patch up this hole. And I can fire my cannons at this thing.

Versus Toranaaga, who is never going to take the straight path and is always going to fly his felt. looking around the curvy, windy road, and come at you from behind when you thought he was in front of you. Tortured metaphor, sorry. So thinking about that, again, as we think about this, we think about Nagakato going directly at the thing.

I have to act. I didn't act at the beginning, and Fuji's husband's entire bloodline was entered. Yeah. Right? I have to act. I have to make moves. I have to do this. And Toranaga is trying to tell his son, in so many words and not, this is the move.

this is the move. This is the attack. What me flipping stones over this gate in the forest It may not look like it, but it is. And Blackthorn hasn't learned that yet either. And I think going back to this question of the what I mentioned to Justin and Rachel about this scene from the book where

Blackthorn contemplate, whatever, the Sepuku scene, which may or may not still happen in the show. But like, I think the thing that book readers who are missing that scene our most missing is an idea that Blackthorn is really assimilating and understanding the Japanese way of things. And I think there are ways in which he very quite obviously is in the show, but maybe not as overtly as he is in the book at this point. And maybe that moment will come

in like a more spectacular sort of revelation kind of way. But what I did like in this episode, is that as much as Blackthorn is expressing, still expressing his frustration, he says a full articulate line of dialogue in Japanese to Saiki when he made, he's not speaking like broken pigeon Japanese. No, but it is a little bit like Toranaaga pulls his string and he says, there's a snake in my boots, you know, like, there's that going on.

Sorry. Somebody poisoned the warhol. Yeah, okay. Fair enough. I was just like, I think he has appreciation for Fuji. He's probably taking more baths. He's learning how to position rocks in the garden. There are things that he's learning.

And I think tracking the language is like one way for us to track that as it exists in the show. Yeah. I don't know. Like where would you put him right now, Blackthorn, in terms of like really truly assimilating or appreciating Japanese culture versus being confounded and befudely. by the actions of the people around him, you know? Sorry, with apologies, Andy Greenwald, who does that much better than I do.

I thought you did a great job for the record. Thanks. We didn't really have a chance to circle back to the things that we didn't get to in episode six. I would say there's only one thing for me, and it's Blackthorne-related, which is as they're approaching the tea house for the first time, and he asks Mariko, like,

does Torana know what's up or what? And she basically deflects it, and he literally growls. I love him. I love this performance. The performance is so great. Yeah. The character, to your question,

I think he's starting to get a lot of the specifics. Clearly, he has a, like, a facility with the language that is paying off, and he's starting to understand a little more of his circumstances. But there's a difference between understanding the customs and being able to understand that there's more than one solution to every problem. And they're, like, getting on your ship and sailing away. The solution to every problem is the ship is big, like, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

kind of vibes. Every solution he has is like, I'm a sailor and I need to be back on my boat and I'm going to fix it in a way that Tornaga, he's got all the tools. He has all these options at his disposal. He can think about things laterally. He can come at problems in all sorts of ways.

And Blackthorn doesn't have that. And so he may have a better understanding of why Fuji does what she does or why Mariko behaves the way she behaves or why Buntaro wants to kill him or believes that he has the right to also kill his wife, but is conflicted about it. But that doesn't make him any closer

to understanding what Toranaug is actually up to, I wouldn't say. When he says, when he's talking about his ship, his favorite thing to talk about, his favorite subject, and he says, Tamariko, then we could be out of that channel and we could dot, dot, dot, dot.

Do you feel like part of that dot, dot, dot, dot is like, you and me, babe, let's go back to England. Like, screw this. Maybe. But every plan is really the same. It's step one, get on the boat, Step two, dot, dot, dot, step three, profit. Profit, yeah, okay.

All right, so Ashita's crest is now on Blackthorn ship, so it feels like the Erasmus is out of reach at the moment. I will say, well, while we're talking about Blackthorn, and specifically the omission of the Sepaku scene, we get our first kind of culmination of what Sepaku actually looks like in the flashback at the open of this episode. And it's been lurking around the edges of the frame all season. We've seen Yabushige almost take his life.

in the waves. We've seen the aftermath of Fuji's husband committing Sepaku and the end of her family line and the remains which come back in this episode. And I thought, like, Khramatsu, not coming back empty-handed and instead bringing the remains of her husband and child, I think, like, tie up a lot of the thematic elements

of service and sacrifice and the death that is kind of looming over everything here. And then obviously we see Blackthorns struggling to understand the entire concept of Sepaku, but by withholding what it actually looks like, to this point. You introduce all the contexts and the significance first. And we as an audience have an understanding of what it is.

And then you get the grisly reality, which is like, this is not just death, but a disemboweling. Like, this is an act of suffering of sacrifice in that way that I think looks and feels even different than you might expect the way it unfolds in this scene. And this is what Justin and Rachel were talking about last week in terms of, like, them wanting to be very measured and considered in terms of how they would roll out the Savaku realities to the audience. And you're right, this is like a big step in that direction.

To go back to Hiromatsu and the remains and the Fuji scene, my guess is that we're supposed to take that in contrast to the Torinawara-Mariko scene because both the parallel between Mariko and Fuji as women who have lost their families and just want to die, just want to be done and are not allowed to die. And Mariko is like forever trapped in Amber in the past where Buntarro will never let her forget who her family was. She carries this shame of who her family was. And even Toranauga, who fashions himself as sort of like her supporter, a booster,

someone who's going to give her a job and listen to her counsel and stuff like that. He's urging her to stay in the past and say, your father's enemies, this is your role. You are still trapped back there as the daughter of this man who was killed, et cetera, whereas Hiramatsu is like, Fuji,

that happened, but that's not all of you. That's not all of who you are. And that's not the end of your story. You don't, like, there's a future for you where you, where you can do a lot of things.

No one other than Blackthorn is thinking about Mariko that way, you know? And I don't even know that Blackthorn has even like fully articulate that or thought it out that way, though I'm sure if you ask him, you'd be like, well, of course, she's so talented. She's such a future in front of it, right? But like, they're all saying, Mariko, that happened to you.

Your one option for a life is to close that loop of that thing that happen with your father. Fuji, your future's bright. There are other things that can happen for you. You keep such a neat and tidy home. Your reaction gifts are second to none. We need you in this world, Fuji. We really do.

What would we do without you? You're dispensing sage wisdom? Honestly, it's not your fault that Nagakato misinterprets it and decides that it's his time to do something very rash and ill-advised. Oh, boy. Poor buddy. I just have one final question, and it's based on, you know, Omi shows up to the tea house to request Lady Kuku's services

and to check her availability. Are we to interpret that every time they've been hanging out, he's been just like paying out of pocket every time? Or do they have a social relationship that transcends the exchange here? I think he's always paying, but like I think they have an, according to the book, they have like an arrangement where like he's her very special customer. but a customer nonetheless. He's not paying the surge charge rates

that Toranauga is paying in this episode. Correct, correct. 12,000 monmem. One of the silver coins, basically. Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Highway robbery. And actually, you know,

in the book, it's clear that Kiku actually, like, is fond of Omi. Whereas I think our interpretation of the show was like, we're like, oh me, you're making an idiot of yourself. And in the book, it's actually like, So is Syakia pair. Every man who has an experience with Kiku is like, I am going to marry you. Please run away with me.

Her face during their scene, and she's just sort of like listlessly holding the like ribbon over her shoulder that's wrapped around his throat. Ironic. Tremu. You icon. I love you. And you know what, Omi is an icon too, supporting local businesses, basically subsidizing the entire tea house as far as we can tell. A champion of the people.

He's all about infusing currency back into the economy of his village. He cares about a healthy thriving economy. All right. So that is, I think, the end of our particular stick of incense for this week's discussion of Shogun next week, episode eight. Only three more to go, devastating, genuinely. But maybe does that coincide with NBA playoffs? Like, you'll get to transfer over into that?

Yes. Yes and no. I think there's going to be some overlap there. It's going to be a little hairy. Yeah, as we go through like finale season of Shogun into maybe the most hectic stage of the NBA calendar. So please, please pray for me. Be kind to Rob.

For me. All right. Well, thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thank you to Kai Grady. As always, for his incredible work on this podcast. And we'll see you all next week for episode eight. Bye.