The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Episode 8 Recap

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Jo and Rob return to break down the eighth episode of ‘Shogun.’ They discuss the grand introduction of Edo, the emotionally crushing tea room exchange between Mariko and Buntaro, and Blackthorne��s unexpected revulsion toward his men. Along the way, they talk about the thematic significance of loyalty throughout the episode. Later, they unpack Hiromatsu’s devastating sacrifice and the substantial consequences of his decision. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nathan Hubbard, spring has sprung, the birds are chirping, and the pop girls are pop-girling. Oh, and you know what that means, Nora Princiotti. Every single album is back. This spring is packed with new releases from some of the biggest pop stars in the world, including our girl Taylor Swift, and we'll be covering it all. We'll, of course, break down every angle on the tortured poets department, and we'll also cover new music from Beyonce, Duolipa, Maggie Rogers, Casey Musgraves, and Ariana Grande.

It's Pop Girl Spring on every single album. New episodes starting March 28th. On Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Back to the Preseech TV podcast feed. I'm Jonah Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. We are here to talk about Shogun Episode 8, The Abyss of Life, a.k. Buntaro's No Good Good Day.

Good Lord. My guy. Just down horrendous in this episode. It's a real tough episode for him. This isn't like any one person's episode. You could give it to Hiramatsu if you want to. He's a big part of it. But I was curious about the Abyss of Life because often the titles are taken from a speech that happens in the episode. But as far as I remember, the Abyss of Life is not uttered in this episode.

But it is in the book. And in the book, it's from, I don't know if you remember that. I'm sure you do. Have a great memory, Rob, that we talked about. about the earlier scene where Buntaro is at the dock, and he, and Toranoag is like, run away, save yourself, come back and fight another day. And in the book, he was, like, ready to commit Sepuku.

Yeah. So it's from his sort of inner monologue as he's wanting to commit Sepaku, and Toranooga is saying no to him. It goes, his soul cried out for oblivion, now so near and easy and honorable, the next life will be better. how could it be worse? Even so he put down the knife and obeyed

and cast himself back into the abyss of life. His liege lord had ordered the ultimate suffering and had decided to cancel his attempt at peace. What else is there for a samurai but obedience? So tough. Extremely tough turn. Especially when I would say the closest thing in this episode

to a reference to the abyss of life is Mariko's speech to Buntaro about the abyss of a life with him. And so for all of that to be turned on its head and pointed directly at him, extremely tough scenes for Buntaro this week. Yeah. You know, Buntar doesn't have all my sympathies. We recently watched him beat his wife.

I'm not saying he's a good guy. But, like, that's, again, the power of this show is to give us characters like Buntaro who have a lot of complex layers to them. Just spoiler warning, I guess I already mentioned some things, but we're here to talk about episode 8 of Shogun. So if you haven't watched episode A yet, please go back and do that. We will not be talking about episode 9 or 10 or anything that happens in the book beyond what happens here in this episode. But we are kind of off the map a bit in terms of adaptation.

We'll talk about that when we get to some of the big pock points in this episode. Top Nots and Man Buns at gmail.com. You guys have been pretty quiet on the email front. But we also know a lot of you are listening. So we want to hear your opinions. So please email us your thoughts and feelings about what goes down in this episode today. and... Yeah, I would love for someone

to tell me what went down in this episode because what happened, Joe? Yeah. What's going on? I actually do have

some questions that I've not been able to answer for myself. This episode is written by Shannon Goss and directed by Emmanuel Jose Kufur.

And I just want to start with, you know, that inseparable thing where you're like, the city is its own main character. This is the Edo episode. Yes. So let's talk about

the setting. of, this is our first, right? Our first glimpse of Edo and it is a... At least our first dedicated time there, I would think. Out in the streets among the people, certainly our first extended look at Edo. The big, wide, so like it's muddy, it's rainy, but there's a lot of construction going on all over the place.

In like all those wide shots, you just see like buildings are going up everywhere. We have to talk about, of course, two major building, planning things that are happening in Edo. How did you feel about Father Alvito and what he learned about where his church is going up? Yeah, there was something very sweet about watching Lady Gin kind of like walk the path of her dream and something extremely funny about watching Father Alvito

realized who his new neighbors are, but look, districting is tough. It's really hard to keep all these things separate. Oh my God, the zoning regulations. Don't even get me started about the red tape in Edo. It's extremely tough right now. In that scene, inside of that wonderful joke, there is this crisis from Omi. My guy Omi is also very much going through it in this episode. Seems to be the most shaken by Nagakata's death as like the two young guys who used to sit in Hot Springs together.

And he says, to Kiku, he says, I don't know what I'm fighting for, right? And she says, if you look and see nothing, you simply look harder. What is your take on that exchange? Well, I think he puts a finer point on it in kind of talking about loyalty being a disservice and a harm and how in these moments, it's very hard sometimes to see the end game.

And it's understandable why characters like Omi are feeling lost and are feeling like they don't understand what's going on, even when they're tipped off by bits and pieces of information along the way, but then people start dying, people start gutting themselves, and how are you to make sense of this as an actual plan? In a team meeting!

A team meeting that probably could have been in an email. Just docusign this instead of back. That's a docu-sign situation if I've ever seen one. But it's about the song and dance of the docu-sign. It's not the signatures. I need to see you put pen to paper. I need to read your face. And most importantly, I need you to read mine.

Nagacado. We pour one out for my favorite ponytail guy in this episode. We get a couple little eulogies for him. We get like small eulogy on the road. and then the gathering of the men and the conspicuous absence of Tornaga around like dinner and then the funeral itself

and then we'll talk later about Taranaga visiting the grave site but how did you feel about the way in which they decided to eulogize him Tough but fair Yeah full of long stories that went nowhere Wow what a read

How relatable The ultimate podcast I know. Podcaster Nagacado. Podcaster burn. Buntaro tells the story about it. You fell out of a tree and broke his arm, told no one so they would think he was brave. And then he says he was truly courageous. So it is, they are, these men are taking little pot shots at poor dead sweet Nagakato.

But also, there is something they admire the fact that he acted because they all agree with him that, you know, they're all feeling this rest of. and rebellion, and this is not the way we want to go out with our heads down, surrendering off to our deaths at Osaka. So at least Nagakato did something. And then Toranauga, in his very conspicuous absence, is providing this lack of leadership for them in this moment. What do you think about that? The fact that he's not there to lead the conversation, I think, opens itself up to this sort of like, he's a fail son, but he's a real one dual interpretation of Nagakado's life, which again, accurate, I would say, given his characterization in this story. How we're feeling Toranaaga's

absence and in what ways that itself is a manipulation, I think is a very interesting way to parse this episode, how he is removing himself from areas and scenes and dynamics, even starting off in the procession as everyone is marching into Edo and Blackthorne tries to come up and offer an olive branch, you know, trying to offer his condolences. And the coldness with which Tornaga greets him and just darts off on his own, doesn't even say a word, is all setting up his ultimate plants or Blackthorn. And you would have to think his absence in a lot of these scenes, and certainly from his own son's funeral, is setting up all of this kind of whispering behind the scenes. Like he wants Yabushige to be thinking about his future. He wants Omi to be feeling isolated

and may be betrayed and maybe lost in this moment. Who knows if all of that's going to work out for him, but it does feel like he's pulling a lot of different puppet strings right now. Here's my favorite thing about Tornaga in this episode and in the previous episode as well, because this is, I mean, he's always constantly playing. This is something that it becomes as clear as day by the very end of this episode. But this is all an act. But what I love about him is that he is like a method actor, that he will cough even, oh, we know the walls are thin, right?

The walls are thin in his house. So like, you know, and there's people right out. ready to open the door for him. So, like, he's coughing perhaps for their benefit, but he's like, he's still, like, doing the whole, like, I'm not feeling well thing when there's no one to the room to watch him. So, you know, Jared let him take note. It never stops, you know, when you're on horseback,

you really got to sell that cough loud. I mean, there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of background. You really got to get it out there. Before we move on from Omi and this kind of sending off of Nagakado, I thought he had a line as he's eulogizing Nagakado that I didn't quite know how to read and I'm curious if you're a read on it, which is he says, you know, reckless as he may have been, his life was given to one thing, the name of his Lord, Lord Tornaaga. And I want to float this idea to you that I don't know if I entirely believe, but is it possible that Omi believes in this moment that Nagakado is one of Toranauga's ponds in this sense, that he was directed as part of this plan, that he is a sacrifice as part of a larger aim or is it just in the aim of serving his father.

I think it's just about, I think it's just that constant chewing over that idea of loyalty, which again, he talks about Kiku that Mariko and Blackthorn talk about. I don't think Omi, I don't think anyone but Hiramatsu sees fully through Tornaga in this episode. Definitely. But if anyone were to see a glimpse of him, it might be a character like Omi. And so this was definitely one of those lines that, on first watch, I took it as pure eulogy. And on second watch, it was like,

does he suspect that there's something bigger at play here that even Nagakato wasn't aware of, that he was being put in a position that even he wasn't fully grasping? But I don't think Toranauga meant for Nagato for that to happen to Nagakato, right? Let's circle back to that, because I think that's where the end gets very interesting. I actually don't think Tornaga meant.

Again, I have no guidance from the book because Nagakato doesn't die in the book, so I have no particular insight there. But my sense of both the loss of Nagakato and Hiramatsu is that as dedicated as he is to his ruse and his plan and everything, these are personal costs that he didn't necessarily plan for, but we'll take advantage of. That's my interpretation of it. But you never know what level he's playing. You really don't.

Again, there's so many good scenes in this episode. This is a really tremendous episode of television. but I want to talk about the scene that I thought had been cut but is here in this episode which is the T for two scene with Buntaro and Mariko and thank goodness it wasn't cut

yeah right you can see why when I was like when I read it in the book and it wasn't in the show I was like why would you and they were like I hope they were listening to the podcast we're like Doreana be patient please as if we would cut that scene

I want to start so the way this is described in the book is so fascinating because like Buntra spends all day, like, preparing this, cleaning out the house, cleaning the garden, then, like, doing it all over again. It's a reconciliation, a conversation that Toranauga asks him to have, which is, you know, not part of how it's done in the show. Yeah, that's very different.

But at the same time, he, like, throws himself into this preparation. And without even saying that, I think you can see it in just sort of, like, his eagerness to perform this ceremony precisely. and all of that for Mariko. She goes in this small door, and something that I love in the book that is described is this idea is that the door is so small

that everyone has to come and sort of bowed because it's meant to humble everyone, because at a ceremony like this, the Chano You, everyone is equal, daimio, samurai, peasant, it doesn't matter if you're invited into this room,

you are an equal. And there's this line where Buntaro is talking to Mariko about like his, fears about Toranaaga in that scene and he says, here in this privacy, I can tell you quietly that truth without pretense. It's an important part of the Chano Yu to be without pretense. So you've talked a lot and brilliantly about this sort of private world bubble that Mariko and Blackthorner are allowed to create inside of language. And I feel like this is just a similar bubble for Buntaro and

Mariko to be quite honest and vulnerable with each other. And before I get to the ways in which this scene is different, I'm just curious for you, what did you take away from this? How did this land for you? I mean, Buntar's, he's curated this moment so particularly. And the way it unfolds, I mean, it's just a gorgeous scene in terms of the care and the dedication

and the process of preparing the tea. And maybe my favorite bit of scoring that we've had in the entire show so far, You get something really warm and diligent, and it's almost like there's these ringing tones that are searching for harmony in a lot of ways that I think plays really well. So beautiful. And you could even see that in the poetry, too,

that they kind of exchange at the beginning where Mariko's poem is all about moving away, off into the distance. It's all outward. And Buntaro's poetry is all chasing her. And so the fact that the whole scene plays out that way. And, you know, in an episode we're, someone literally guts themselves.

Just an incredible amount of violence happens in this tea room. This is hard to watch, extremely difficult to watch, even for a character, as you said, who's done some horrible things. But just how visceral, how emotionally visceral and exposed he is here in finally giving Mara what he thinks she wants, only to realize he's been misunderstanding it the whole time. Absolutely devastating.

What I think is brilliant about the scene and something that I think they're doing in this out of tea, that's very different, which I really like, is they are toughening up Mariko and softening Toranauga. And I think that just makes them both feel that much more human, rather than Tornaga being like quite so much, so rigid and stoic and superior seeming. And Mariko being so pliant, often so pliant,

not always, but often so pliant. And I like, so in this, in this, seen in the book, they actually achieved this moment of peace and harmony at this ceremony. They have this moment. They come out of this and he's like, all right, this is going to be okay. And she's like, she leaves a tea room and she's kind of like, actually, you know, my feelings, that was a nice moment, a nice little bubble for us to have that ceremony together. But ultimately, my feelings have changed. And then later she sort of like lets loose on him in the way that she does here in the tea room. So they kind of like combine those two moments.

which I really like. It's not only efficient storytelling, but I just don't, I don't think that the Mariko we've been watching would be like, okay, everything's fine. Absolutely not. So I really like that adaptive choice.

And then just like the performances from both of them, they've been real standouts throughout, but I just thought, especially Chinasuke Abe as Buntaro, like the crying at the end of that sequence. Just a dude sobbing alone.

in the tea room. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Awful. I love what you said about the score. I kind of want to go back and listen to that. I marked the score later for the Hiramatsu sequence. So I just think the score in this episode is just off the charts,

but I want to go back and listen to that tea room exchange. This was one of those moments, though. There's a couple of these, like, there's no coming back from this moments in this episode. Obviously, the deaths of major characters like Hiramatsu, but there's no really repairing Buntaro and Mariko's relationship or even the pretense of repairing it. after this. And I would say for Blackthorne, he has his own,

like, there's no going back moment with his men and the crew of his ship where he's so repulsed by the smell and the sight of them. That world is not for him anymore. You're brilliant. This is the next place I wanted to go. I've titled this section,

you can't go home again. So he gets released from service. He gets the rudder back. He gets, you know, freedom to do whatever he wants. He's like, am I a translator? What becomes the firm? Mark is like, don't worry about it.

He runs into El Vito. pronounces the word cockroach, cockroach, which is either Japanese or just the best thing I've ever heard of my entire life, one of two,

I do not know, threatens the black ship. Yes, conspicuously yet again. And then goes to visit his men and meets Solomon in, have you ever met a creepy,

dark shadow of your former self in a back alley in Eno, Rob, would you like to? Nightmarish encounter. What did you think of this? God, if I had a penny for every time that's happened to me.

Just really coming face to face with my own actions, all the consequences, my fate, my destiny, all rolled into one moment and to smell it. Let me tell you, it's just a whole different thing. I was a little surprised at how well the crew has been living. They're basically living out of a hotel. They're drinking edo out of sake. They're free to not bathe and apparently chase women as they like.

Not a bad way to while away a couple months. if you're this crew of a ship that at least one member was boiled alive. The line of the show is they live in the funiado and I couldn't, as it was spelled in the caption, I couldn't find a direct translation of this. In the book, they have been sequestered into the sort of like meatpacking district

is almost too kind. It's like where the tanneries are, where they dispose of the bodies, like blah, blah. They're not allowed to go over a certain bridge. So they have been like, originally they were put in a nicer place, but they did not behave themselves. So now they have been like shunted off

into a terrible section of town. Well, that's on them, to be fair. Absolutely. The line stinks like Billingsgate at low tide is directly from the book. Absolutely disgusting. But I'm glad, I'm really glad this section of the book. So there's, as Justin and Rachel sort of alluded to

when we talked to them a couple weeks ago, this final stretch of the show is really kind of strip mining the last, I would say, two-thirds, of part two of this book. I'm not going to do the fractional math for the whole thing, but like for the juiciest nuggets and pulling out a lot. So there's like all this stuff with the church they pulled out. And then this sequence is so long.

And it's just like really trying to drive on the point how disgusting John finds these men and they're like dropping F slurs and like saying all this stuff. And I think we got the point though. I think this is all we really needed. He's like getting all flea bitten. and they're like, here we go. But there's only six of them left. Like, a lot of them have died.

And he wants nothing to do with them anymore. And now he's, like, completely adrift. He's of two hearts, but now he's just like, I'm not even sure which, you know, I've been cut loose from Toranauga. I do not. I've been talking about finding my men for episodes now. And I found them, and it's a nightmare. So what do I do now? Yeah.

And that's, I think, the story. smart way to play this, if you're not going to dedicate a ton of time in 10 episodes to the crew of this ship in Blackthorn's relationship. And we talked about all that they could potentially have done and cut out in terms of the opening section of the book where those characters feature more prominently. If you're not going to do that, this is what you do. You pick the greatest hits. You take visceral moments, like Blackthorne being so repulsed by the fact that he has to take off articles of clothing that this guy touched. He's so sickened by him. And instead, you shift our focus to Blackthorn and Toranaaga,

to the ways he's being cut loose, to the fact that he's being presented with the rudder as they get to Edo. Yet another way that Tornaga is just like setting up all these dominoes in place for Blackthorn, a character who's been begging him for purpose to feel purposeless and to feel adrift

and to go to Yabushige and exactly the way he wants him to go to Yabushige. And that exchange, I thought, was really great too, of Blackthorn making his pitch to sail for Yabushige. And Yabu Shige, again, very performatively, despite being amused, by this offer, having to refuse it, having to deny it, having to talk down, even as he's so clearly is intrigued by it. I loved it. Omi's like, this is disgraceful. He's like, yeah, yeah,

this is deeply disgraceful. And then also, like, just a classic Mariko Blackthorn translation joke moment of, like, he's a shit face, but he is a brave shit face, so I must ask. On that note, I would like to ask you, I've been collecting some Blackthorn obscenities over the course of this season. I would like to ask. you for your favorite of this collection. As you said, he's a shit face, but he is a brave shit face. Great line about Yabushige. Others, tell this poxy little bastard I piss on his whole damn country when he first meets Omi. Or, you black-eyed son of a shit-festered whore about Rodriguez, fuck yourself, you sniveling little shit rag, also Omi. My personal favorite. Tell this

milk-dribbling fuck smear, I'm ready to go. Also referencing Omi or in episode 7, crimson fucking horse shit. Do you have a favorite of that bunch? You're right that like sort of, what is it, milk dribbling? Milk dribbling fuck smear. Yeah, that's really good, but

I'm sorry, give me the Crimson one again. Crimson fucking horseshit. Yeah, Crimson fucking horseshit as a rebranding of Crimson's guys. It's tough. Yeah, my guy knows a rebrand when he sees one. That's very SEO friendly. You throw that on a Gawker blog,

blog post, we got something going here. Oh, Gaka reference in 2024, you love to see it. Okay, Mariko is pissed, right? When they go to Yabashige, she's pissed that Blackthorn is giving up on Toranaaga. You know, he says he doesn't belong there. His own people seem strange.

Something he's able to say in Japanese, halting Japanese to Yavishige. So he says he's left to whittle what fate I can for myself. Mariko knows the word whittle. So I just want once again compliment her education. And that line left to whittle what fate I can for myself just reminded me of Uchiba talking about fate and like the idea of like stabbing fate. You know what I mean?

Like what control do we have and how do we think about that control? Do we hack it out? Do we slice at it? Do we just let it wash over us and accept it? What are these various characters relationships to fate? What is the right way to think about fate according to? these showwriters are according to James Covell, and is anyone on like a journey about that mentality, you know?

Tornaaga is never going to be someone who's going to accept a fate, right? He's not resigning to anything. But where does that go is, I think, the question, right? Like, characters like Blackthorn do feel like they're whittling, right? They're controlling what little they can control. And Tornaaga, by comparison, is taking big swings with an axe at fate, really chisling that thing out in the shape that he wants it to, take, but in the end, does it end up splitting anyway?

Like, do you, are you too aggressive with it in a way that betrays even what you're after? This exchange between Mariko and Blackthorn at the end of this Yabashige scene where, um, she says once loyalty begins, it doesn't have an end. Otherwise, it is not loyalty. And he says, loyalty turns senseless, you know, when it turns to suicide, essentially. And then she says, would you like me to translate that or was it for me? Again, incredible performance from Anna in that. moment, that line delivery. But yeah, this rupture between their worldview, there's been so many

moments where these two characters, again, to your point, have created their own little world where they kind of like see eye to eye or he's like open to learning from her or she's curious to learn from him about his world. And here is this fork in the road for them of, and a way which Mariko is different from everyone, all of Toranauga's vassals who are questioning him. Is she the person least questioning him in this episode, would you say? At least outwardly. Yeah.

It's clear by the end of it that she has some extreme reservations and isn't seeing the full board. And you can even tell by the way she's kind of eavesdropping on Hiramatsu as he explains, oh, Tornaga must be fighting or else he would never send an to tell them how sick he is and how he's so dedicated to the idea of surrender. And so she has to have those sorts of check-in moments

I think to believe that there's any grand plan here. But there's no question that her relationship with Blackthorn is incredibly afraid. That she is trying her best to dedicate herself to Toranauga's cause even now in the way that he basically demand that she does. And even then it's hard to

fully buy in when you don't know exactly what's happening. But I kind of think that her her sense of loyalty to his cause, which has been primed by Tornaug is like earlier, I would say, manipulations of her. Yeah. Framing at the bare minimum. Right.

Perhaps that just makes her uniquely qualified to be the only person he actually lets into his confidence by the end of this episode. That and her relationship to Oceba, right? We've only seen two flashback relationships, really, and it's Mariko and Acheva and Hiramatsu and Toronaga. And the Hiramatsu and Toronaga,

you were there the first time, like I tried and failed to cut someone's head off, pays off in an exchange they have in this episode. And Mariko is potentially the key to Achiba because it is mentioned multiple times that if you get Oceba, you get the air, and if you get the air, you get the legitimacy of this conflict,

and Ishtido has nothing. So Ashido is trying to shore up, I mean, Ashido is also completely gone on Oceba. It's not just political for him. He is completely love-struck. I was... This was an incredible moment

because we are just like two episodes removed from Oceba being like, you all are playthings. Yeah. I think he's out here trying to be a different kind of play thing, if you know what I mean. 100%.

The kind that James Clevel loves to write about. Certainly. Yeah. So he is like, let's announce our engagement. A, because I love you. And I always have, apparently. And B, as politically advantageous to me.

Be stepfather to the air. Be the father who stepped up. Come on. Love that. So we're reminded that Tornaga is, you know, connected to Acheba by family because we meet Lady Rin, who is her sister when Mariko goes to, you know, meet Lady Rin and they talk about the new baby. And Mariko says this thing about Oceba, right?

each of us endures in our own way, staying hidden is hers. Fascinating observation of Acheba in an episode where I would say we see a drop of her mask. Oceba when the Tycho's wife, first wife, dies. Yeah. And Oceba is there without the makeup, without her hair done, without that voice she puts on and is much closer to the younger version of herself we met in the flashback. So we see that sort of mask drop from her. We see this other part of her.

And it's interesting to me, though, that Mariko would sort of paint Ociba as someone who is hidden. When isn't Mariko, aren't we all hidden behind, you know, the eightfold fence? Like, isn't that what we're all doing here? But Ociba is just doing it a lot more style and a cool, a cool voice. But what did you... This is the part that really confuses me, actually. Is the Oceba Dayom death scene?

Yeah. I was very puzzled by this. What is your interpretation of it? I was almost expecting her to drop the mask in a different way and do something... Like kill her. Poison her. Or merciless. Especially the way she has talked about

being dragged into these circumstances and being drugged, basically against her will for the sake of having an heir. Yes. This was not the outcome I was anticipating, but maybe there's another shoe to drop. Maybe we have more to see as far as how this goes from here. Yeah, when she's like, do you want some medicine? I was like, she is going to kill her.

But maybe poison is mercy in that moment. I don't know. But it doesn't, I don't know. It did just seem like very tender. Yes. But at the same time, so when Diane dies, right, she says, I knew it would be this face to send me off. all of your strength and sadness,

you must stop these games, promise to release the hostages, Ishido, and that's a classic classism, Ashido comes from nothing, is nothing, right? And then she says, look what I made.

And again, it is received by Achiba in a way that seems tender to me, but I, if someone who dressed me up, like, you know,

dressed me up, drugged me, and forced me to, like, produce an air for her husband, said, look what I made to me, I would not take that well or with tenderness.

Nope. So I find myself very confused by this interaction. And then it ends with Achiba going back to Ishido and like bowing to him. So perhaps accepting the engagement offer is sort of my interpretation of that wordless scene. So ignoring the advice to like stop your alliance. Not releasing the hostages. Not releasing the hostages. But I just don't feel like I fully.

Here's my best stab at understanding this. Mariko earlier when Tornaug is asking her, what Oceba like a lie with us do you think? She says, I don't think you are her enemy. I think fear is her enemy. So if Achiba is shaken enough by this death for a reason, I don't fully grok. But if she is, maybe she's shaken to feeling like she needs to

shelter under Ashita's protection when before it feels like she is just like the excuse my language like biggest swinging dick in the room right and now she's sort of like bowing to I don't know

I'm to your point there's probably another shoe to drop but I found myself very intrigued but not fully solid on what's happening with Achiba's inner life in this episode it's a little mysterious for me too I think the closest

we're going to get on it is what you illuminated in terms of the performance, that this is, she is falling back into something younger, something more vulnerable, a place in her life where Dayawin was someone who took her under her wing, even if she did some questionable things, or even if you put her through a lot

in terms of producing this air, a kind of maternal influence at a time where she had no one else to turn to. And so it could be one of those very complicated, you know, paternal and maternal relationships where it's like, I'm going to refuse your advice, in previous scenes that we have together,

I'm not going to take you very seriously, and yet when this moment comes, you turn into a child again, or you turn into your younger self again. That's the closest I can get to understanding where she is right there. Look at what I made. It seemed very like,

if we didn't have, know what that meant, like, it seems very tender and maternal, but it's very, it's quite twisted. Anyway, Mariko,

I think, you know, we'll come back to this, but it feels like Torano has identified Marriko, has identified Mariko as perhaps his best option around Oceba, right? Because they have this history. They were girls together.

That's sort of my interpretation of why Mariko has to go to Osaka. It would seem so. It's the one thing that only she can do. Right. And Torinag is very good at identifying those sorts of skills. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine,

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All right, let's talk about our guy Hiramatsu. There's a couple fascinating exchanges here, obviously. there's the meeting with Hiramatsu, Mariko, and Alvito, part of which is just like theater for Father Alvito so that he will take this message back. And as you mentioned, Hiramatsu later's like, he's got to be faking. Look what he just did. But that, in that scene, he asks Hiramatsu's advice. He's like, do you want my opinion? He's like, you want my opinion?

He's like, yeah. And then he gives it and he's like, if I wanted your opinion, I would ask for it. What did you make of that exchange? See, this scene is when I knew this show was on another level. Yeah. And it's the way that all of this and like the dance partner dynamic between the two of them sets up everything that we get in the finale of this episode, everything we get in their later theatrics. It's so clear that Tornaga's plans, as we know, he doesn't really articulate to anyone.

And I don't even think he articulates them to Hiramatsu per se. I think Hiramatsu is very intuitive about understanding what Tornaga is after and how he needs to fit into it. It's not something that he needs to be asked to do. He just understands how to provide it. And so here in this scene, his job is to provide a counterpoint to like voice an opposition perspective that Torinaga could then strike down, even if it is only for the purpose of at the end, him snapping at him and saying if I, you know, if I wanted your opinion, I would have asked for it, even though you literally just asked for it five seconds ago. So it's all, it's all very performative. And it's all very performative in a way that makes us understand their later.

interaction so much better. I completely agree with you. I do not think there was like a conversation between Tornaga and Hiramatsu that we didn't see. No. Like they never had that conversation. I guess the place that I feel like there's maybe room for interpretation, I'll be curious, you know, to hear from the writers whether or not they feel strongly one way or another,

is whether or not Tornaga meant for that exactly to happen. But he needed Hiramatsu to play his role in keeping everyone in line, bringing him to heal but like pushing yaboshi in one direction and and you know securing buntaro and all you know all the various things that he did that he accomplished but my interpretation in the incredible silent with their eyes saying different things with their mouths tears in their eyes conversation that they're having is that tornaga didn't want this to happen and as i said with nagakato and i don't have particular insight because it's not in the book, Hiramatsu does not commit Sepuku in the book. And I texted you this and you were like, what?

What? I fucking blew my mind, Joe. What? What does happen is that Hiramatsu voices, loudly voices objection. Yes. And a different general commits Sepuku in protest. But it's like a random general that we don't really know. And it's not part of like a plan.

It's just a thing that Toranauga then uses to his advantage. So this idea to combine that incident with Yeromatsu voicing his dissent, sort of blend them together, and then make it all part of this not precisely but loosely Toranauga's plan, this understanding, this unspoken understanding between two men who have known each other for eons and another personal loss for Toranauga, where, the book, he has not lost his son. He has not lost his, you know, dearest, oldest friend. He is just plowing ahead with his machinations, and we're off to Osaka. So, you know, since I told you that,

and I think you watched the episode again after knowing that, like, how did that change the way you viewed it or did it, or what do you think? Well, what you said about a nameless general being the person to commit Sepakou, I think makes ton of sense in terms of an adaptive change. Yeah. Right? As you said, there's just more power in a,

character that we know and someone we know is so important to Toranauga being the person to do that. There's also plot reasons to do it, which is it sells the ruse above and beyond anything else possibly could. Like, no other person's death would signify Toranauga's seriousness and his commitment to the fucking bit more than this. And so what more could you want in terms of consolidating plot points, in terms of changing which character does what? This is more significant to the audience. It's more significant to the characters in the story. And it gives Hiramatsu an incredible moment where he, again, he doesn't have to be told to do this, but he has a sense of when something needs to be done and when he needs to make his final play.

And it is, it's memorable, it's emotional. Watching Toranauga try not to quake under the power and the devastation of that moment is really, you could have an isolated cam on Hirouki Sonata just during this scene and I would watch the hell out of it for hours and hours. He's so good all throughout this episode, but especially as he's being kind of pulling. push to the emotional brink there. Honestly, one of the best things I've ever seen in my life is his performance where he's doing like nine different things.

Yes. And the, what, you know, earlier when he was talking to Hiramatsu and he says, or all the the lords, and he says, if Ashito comes to Edo, it would destroy Edo. He would destroy the city that I'm building up. that I'm crafting into this new sort of like metropolitan. We're going to have a section just for brothels. It's going to be great, guys. You see the vision.

And he says, what's more important, the survival of our clan or the survival of Japan? Now, Tarnag is a complicated character, both on the page and on the screen in terms of like, there is, I believe, personal ambition at play here. But I also kind of believe that he thinks he's the best thing for the realm, if you want to use. Don't they all? Yes. But that he will secure peace. And Ishido would be a bad leader.

So I think there is some kernel of truth of this is for the greater good of Japan, but it is also for, you know, his power grab. Yeah. But again, to go back to that moment where Heru Kisanadas, as Toranaugas, staring down his oldest, dearest friend, and having to look in the face the cost of his, as you say, commitment to the bit. Delicious television. So good.

Anything else you want to say about this? Omi's emotional reaction, Buntado, again, having a really shit day. Yabushige shaken the way that Taranaga wants him to be. I really love all the time that we've spent with these various lords and vassals and the way in which, you know, we know Omi, we know Yappu Shigeke, we know Buntaro, we know Hianomatsu, and we're understanding all of their complicated relationships with this traumatic moment. And also the Sepaku conversation that we had with Justin and Rachel and you and I had together, where they made some choices to, like, hold back on sort of like Sepu happening sort of left and right on the page to that a moment.

like this is that much more powerful to watch him like pull his robes open and so good, very upsetting. Yeah, the stare down between them in that moment. And as you said the reaction, like Omi is about as shook as shook could be, just shaking his head, rocking back and forth, crying, Yabushige giving kind of the stunned,

wide-eyed, just can't even fathom what's happening in front of them. I think you get a sense of every character in that room, and also Mariko too, when she finds out what happened later, all processing this loss in their own way where it is a strike to the cause because even those who believed that Tornaaga had a plan. Now, in that moment, it seemed pretty shaken of that fact and seemed pretty intent on the idea that he does plan to surrender, but also the personal loss of this character who is beloved,

a character who has given cover and grace and protection to basically everyone else in this story, even when they really stepped in it. And so to lose Hiramatsu is such a incredible blow. And how they're all even trying to process that it's happening in real time, they can't even bother trying to read Torinaga then. I think how shaken up everyone is emotionally plays into, if this is not Toranauga's piece-by-piece master plan, the general direction of his plan in terms of where he wants these people going.

No little stage cough is going to sell it the way that this moment sells it. And yeah, I want to go to that conversation that Mariko and Tornaaga have after where she says, I won't deepen the wound by disagreeing. Incredible line. I'm going to try to work that into some argument in the future. But again, if we talk about like Ochiba's mask dropping, this is the Toranauga mask dropping. Again, we watched him by himself in a room clutching his kimono and coughing and just sort of like doing the whole act. But here in front of Mariko, this is the moment that he has decided to strategically drop the mask.

show his heartbreak and vulnerability. And it's almost like he needs at least one person to witness what this means to him. And they have this poetry exchange, which is almost for a line directly from the book. But what Mariko says when he's like, I concede you're the better poet, which she says, if I could use my words, like scattering flowers and falling leaves, what a bonfire my poems would make. That's almost word for it except they've added scattering flowers to falling leaves. And I don't know why, and I'm very, like, intrigued by that. Well, as we see in the opening scenes, it is cherry blossom season.

We're in full bloom, Joe. I mean, the cherry blossoms are on the Bay Area, too. I have some falcon, falconry and hawk facts for you in a second, but. All right, let's do it. I watched a whole YouTube video. But, like, is there, like, what do you want to say about Toranauga and Mariko here? I'm very eager to see what his plans for her are. The bar has been set very high for service of Torinaga.

Yeah. I'm concerned for Mariko's safety. I'm obviously concerned about sending her into the belly of the beast here. If her ultimate fate is to try to meet with Ochiba in some way or meet her on those terms and trying to convince her of literally anything that seems like very dangerous business, I do think, just follow up on something that we touched on last week, like, what does Sayaki know and is he in on Torunaga's plan?

Right. I think the framing in this episode between Ishido and Ochiba that the ruse was Ochiba's idea to me signifies that Syaki is not on Toranauga's wavelength that he is he's not pulling a fast one on Lady Oceba

and so that makes me think he is clearly being used as a pawn in the way that many people are being used as upon and he is not an ally of Toranaugas all of which is to say anyone who comes face to face with Lady Ochiba seems to get smacked down pretty quickly and put in their place pretty quickly

and checked in a way that I'm very, very worried that Mariko can keep up with that. Like she's incredibly capable, she's very smart, she knows how to navigate many aspects of this world. But we haven't seen her have to deal with anyone like this, anyone as kind of nefariously manipulative

to give Toranauga the benefit of the doubt, perhaps, as Lady Ochibah can be. This is actually where my hawk facts come into play perfectly. So thank you for that. You're welcome. In this scene, he references, He calls Blackthorn and Yabashige gosshawks.

His preferred bird of prey is Tetsuko is a peregrine falcon. So what's the difference between a paragon falcon and a gosshawk, right? So there's this passage from the book earlier when he's talking about falconry, which Tornaga does a lot in the book. And he says,

warned by the game of breaking Blackthorn to the fist, a phrase we know well, he's a short wing all right. Mariko's equally tough, equally intelligent, but more brilliant, and she's got a ruthlessness that he'll never have. She's like a paragron, like Tetsuko, the best. They're all hawks, all my sons and my daughters and women and vassals, all my enemies, all hawks or pray for hawks. And he said something similar in the show in Broken to the Fist about how people are and quote, some are flown straight from the fist, killing anything that moves, others are lazy and tempted by the lure,

but all men can be broken, blah, blah. Here's the difference to do the way that a goshawk hunts and a peregrine falcon hunts. And again... I can't believe we're going. Do you want to just do like David Attenborough here? Like, how do you want to frame this? One of my favorite...

I've ever seen that episode where David Attenborough... I forget which creature he's talking about. He's like talking about this little vole or something like that. He's like, you know, they're very, you know, careful and cautious and blah, and they do this and he goes, and I've got one in my pocket right now. And just like opens his shirt pocket,

this little creature pox out. And it's just like the best thing I've ever seen. What a lore. What a king. A gossack feeds by seduing his prey and tearing and eating. A peregrine swoops from height, gaining speed, and smashes into its target and breaks its neck,

the target's neck, with this like very scary bill that it has versatile large and it allows

to cover capture other birds while even in flight so just like an elegant tool a subtler tool a longer game

tool for Tornaga to use versus John and Yabushie who is just going to, you know, we're just going to go fumbling through life, attracted to whatever lure Toranauga puts in front of them is sort of, I think, the larger point we're trying to make here.

And that serves kind of the way they've been used throughout this story, where Toranauga has to do a lot more day-to-day maintenance with them. It is a little more short and medium-range concern, where he has to keep pointing them in different directions, even if it's at each other, versus Mariko is more on his side the entire way. Because he is convinced her that his side is her side, that his agenda is her agenda. It's an invaluable thing to make it seem like, oh, this is all what you want. This is all your idea the entire time. Yeah.

Sweet Peregrine Falcon. Yeah. Let's do what you need. Let's get the vengeance you want and you deserve. I'm just here to help you. Just facilitating, really. All right, anything you want to say about Yabushige and John getting on the ship and trying to have a conversation before Mariko shows up to be an interpreter once again?

These dudes got played so hard. I am curious to see how they reconcile the fact that this has been some kind of plan, or at least that Toranauga was aware of their budding alliance in ways that they did not anticipate. So how they see themselves when they are so clearly Falcons is something I'm eager to see going into episode nine. Then we do get Toraga having a private viewing of Nagakato's where they burnt him. And he says, thank you, my son. you earn me some time, I will not waste it. Hiramatsu and you both, I will not waste it.

What did you want to say about this? Yeah. This is where I had the thought, is Toranaga just the coldest motherfucker alive? Yeah. Is this a thing where, to something we've been talking about all throughout the season,

and especially this episode with these plans, I don't think he always has precise ideas about the machinations of them, but he knows what motivates people. He knows how they tend to act rashly or impulsively or in a calculated fashion. And so he points them in a direct, and kind of winds them up and lets them go.

And what he's so good at is maneuvering behind all that. But the way that he lumped Hiramatsu and Nagakato together here, it made me wonder if he did kind of wind up Nagakato to do, if not what he did and if not to die, some version of a rash action coming out of the cancellation of his grand plans, of Operation Crimson Sky. That's an interesting question. I think I would want to go back and watch those scenes between the two of them,

Again, I do not have the book Texas guide here. And so is he winding him up or was he genuinely hoping that he could mold his son into a more useful bird of prey? And maybe to your point, he's just like, it's just never going to happen with this guy. This is not, this is never going to happen. He is very cold. Like, there is that part of him. Though, again, the show is doing a lot to show. the personal cost for him.

Yes. Though he's not wavering from his plan. This is the last book passage I wanted to read to you inside of his head. When he finally reveals to the audience that it's an act, he says he had decided his only tiny chance to survival was convince everyone, even himself. That's the coughing alone in the room part, that he had absolutely accepted defeat, though in reality it was only a cover to gain time, continuing his lifelong pattern of negotiation,

delay, and seeming retreat, always waiting patiently, until a chink in the armor appeared over a jugular, then stabbing home viciously without hesitation. Sounds about right. That's our guy, Torna. Sounds about right. The book.

So again, I do think that they're trying to, like, you know, yeah, like toughen up Mariko. soften up Toranaaga, but, you know, not substantially so that they're unrecognizable from the characters they are in a book, but to make them into characters that were more likely to, similar to like, you know, what we experienced with Buntaro in this episode, where it's like, I'm not letting him off the hook, but I am empathizing with him, you know? How could you not? The creation of this version of Madico, which is very similar to a great book character,

but tweaked in certain ways that make her both, I don't know, slightly more palatable for a modern audience, I would say. And then letting us deeper inside the secret heart of Tornaga, I think is really key to giving us a story that has all the twists and turns and excitement of James Covell's book, strips out a lot of really unnecessary stuff, machinations with the church. I'm like reading full chapters of this back part of the book, And I'm like, well, they threw that out the window.

Like, that's not, that's not important to them. And I kind of agree. There's a lot of stuff in here. You know, there's a lot of church. There's a lot of sailors. There's a lot of anal beads. Just too much. It's fine.

So we're getting this like, yeah, this streamlined all killer, no filler version of the story, which is great. Anything else you want to say about, you only have two episodes left? Are you feeling? Feeling great about where we are story-wise? Like, it feels, it feels energized. It feels like we have a ton of forward momentum. the performances lately have just been off the charts. For a cast as big to be hitting on so many cylinders at once

is really a remarkable thing. And I just don't think we can say enough about Hirouki Sonata's performance in this episode and the way his literal eyeballs are vibrating with pain as he tries to keep it all in. We're really seeing the emotional cost of all these plans, but also just the cost of maintaining the eightfold fence, of trying to keep all of these things hidden and suppressed

and not express any of your motivations. And the way you can play that as an actor, and yet we see kind of visions and glimpses of all of those different versions of Torinaga, it's incredible. My only, I have only one complaint from this episode. Yes. No Fuji.

None. Not a glimpse. Not a single reaction shot. It was up to Omi, I think, to give us, like, the split between Omi and Yabushige, right? So Yabu gives us, like, the comedy reactions and only gives us the emotional reactions. And two of them combined can almost get me to Fuji levels.

But no one does it like our girl Fuji. Yeah, Yavu gets to react to the plan of, oh, you have to personally deliver the guns and cannons. Back to those dogs like, excuse me? He's like, what? What now? Shito had one condition. All right, so that does it for episode eight.

We'll be back next week for episode nine. Again, I am trained by Prestige TV the last few years to feel like episode nine, something like really big is going to happen, but then like, I don't know, here I'm also committed to Peku in episode eight, so I feel like... Big shit's been happening. I feel like we're just going to be here in the shit

for the rest of the season. Thanks to the Incredible Kai Grady for his work on this episode, and we'll be back next week with episode nine. Bye!