The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Episode 9 Recap

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

Jo and Rob return to break down the ninth episode of ‘Shogun.’ They discuss Anna Sawai’s impressive performance, Mariko’s intense standoff at the castle gates, and how the show has been gradually building up to “Crimson Sky.” Along the way, they talk about Ochiba pulling the strings behind the scenes and her emotional interaction with Mariko. Later, they unpack the outcome of various main characters in the penultimate episode’s shocking final scene.  Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producers: Kai Grady and Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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New episodes starting March 28th. On Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney. And we're here today to talk about Shogun episode 9, The Long-Aweighted Crimson Sky. This episode was written by Rachel Kondo and Kalin Puente

and directed by Fred Toyet. And it's an incredible, huge episode of television. So we're really, really excited to talk about it. Really good. Yeah. I got to say the sky not as crimson as I was anticipated, as I was told it would be, really. A lot of dusk and dead of night in this episode. There's a big thing that happens at the end of this episode, which is fairly ambiguous, if you feel that way about it.

The people who make this episode of television on the official podcast talked about at least one of the outcomes at the end of this episode. We're going to say that to the very end of our discussion, just in case you folks listening at home or like, I just want to stay in that fade to black space and not think about what comes after. We're going to say that till the end. So we'll hit you with like a little spoiler for what the creatives have said about what happens at the end of this episode at the end of our episode today. Top knots and man buns at gmail.com still open. We got a couple great emails to read today. We'd love to hear your reactions to episode nine, what you think is going to happen leading up into the finale.

We have a finale episode next week. We also, if all goes according to plan, we'll have an interview. review special. So our regular episode will drop as per usual on Tuesday. And then Wednesday we'll have an interview special with some of the writers to talk about both episode nine and 10. So that is the plan for next week. We will also, if all goes according to plan on the prestige feed, have some coverage of HBO as a sympathizer, which started this past weekend. So that is something that is coming up on the feed. Anything else? Oh, we got several emails at top knots and man buns at DML.com,

reacting to our discussion of the Buntado character in episode 8. Because people loved it so much? They're just like, Rob Joanna, you get it right. You nailed it. You just like always crush it. Some of the reactions were, hey, this guy abuses his wife. How can you have any sympathy or empathy for him as a person since he's done this terrible thing. And what I would

slightly push back on is say, I don't think either Rob or I or the show let that character off the hook for the terrible things that he's done. But the point, one of the points of good storytelling is to put you in a space where you can

feel something for someone even if they are a terrible person. I've heard that's what the Sopranos is about, though I haven't seen it. Wouldn't know. Wouldn't know. Wouldn't know about that. Wouldn't know. That's something that fiction asks us to do all the time is to, like, consider the humanity of, like, horrible people. So we're not letting Buntaro off the hook.

We're not saying he deserves a redemption. But we are saying, and also it's hard to have to cut your dad's head off and be eviscerated by your wife. I would think that would be pretty understandable. Yeah. To be honest, I thought we were pretty clear about, like, where we stood on that character. where his story has taken him so far. People are the entirety of the things that they have done. Exactly.

And sometimes that means having an awful day where you also have to decapitate your father. That's a tough look for anybody, no matter how bad of a person you may be otherwise. There you go. We also got an email I thought was really interesting from Julia, especially in the space of this episode where, once again, as is always the case with Mariko,

precision of language is so important in this episode. Julia, one of our listeners, wanted to point out a quirk of the tenses or familiarity in Japanese language that might have flown over our head. Basically in the relationship between Toranauga and Hiramatsu, she was talking about how she knew from the start how close and familiar they were based on the style of Japanese that they were using with each other.

So this is her example. She says in her email, when Hiromatsu is like, quote, why the hell are we trapped in this castle waiting to die? Toranao replies, Sumana Hiromatsu. The subtitle translated to Sorry Friend. which is accurate, but doesn't paint the whole picture. Sumon is a very informal Dubro way of saying, sorry, or excuse me. It's still used in modern-day Japanese, and you could not catch me saying it to my grandparents.

The fact that Torinaga used such an informal word just tells me how close they were as friends. Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I don't think Toranooga used such an informal level of Japanese with anyone else. So just to, like, drive home the loss of his death in last week's episode. Well, especially who else could he even be that informal with in this space? You know, most of his family members are dying, close confidants are dying. There aren't a lot of people who really know Torana's inner life in a way that would allow him to just be a dude being a bro. Just a guy being a bro, being a dude. Yeah, exactly.

All right. So all that preamble is to say, Rob Mahoney, what is your overall take on this episode of television? Loved it. Love the way it was executed. Love this as a showcase for Anna Sawai. in particular. You know, we talked about Hirouki Sonata's performance

last week. This felt like the showpiece of everything that Mariko has been as a character and showing a lot of the different elements of that, the steel you resolve, the restraint, the desperation at times in this episode,

just an incredible place to get to with a character we've already spent a lot of time with, but felt very validating for it. I completely agree. I think there's so many ways in which, and Rachel Kondo said, exactly this on the official podcast. Everything's been building to this. You and I are conditioned

by a lot of prestige TV in the last few years to expect episode nine to be a hugely consequential episode as opposed to in a 10 episode season as opposed to the finale. It's called Crimson's Guy. You know, we have been told to expect that this was like going to be maybe a big battle or something like that. And instead it's just a huge character. It's a battle of the soul. A one woman stand here in Osaka. What is your sense? I don't think the show has made it crystal clear.

So what is your sense, Rob, of Toranaaga's plans? Like, what do you think he planned to have happened when he sent Mariko to Osaka? Well, so I think especially the idea of sending her at the same time as Yabushika and Blackthorn. And I think it accomplishes mostly two things, sending all of those people at once. one, you're giving Lady Oceba a way to meet with Mariko. And we see that in this episode. Like by using the air and by using Blackthorn as a ruse, there's a way for those characters to get together outside of a formal setting

where they can have a very discreet conversation. I think that's important if we're talking about how Toranaaga and Oceba are going to ever come together in any meaningful alliance or why those characters would ever come together. Mariko has to be a part of that. And then you're putting Yabushige in play with Ashido again. And that's where I'm not sure what Tornago is expecting, how Yabushige factored into that plan, but he has to know, as a short-range falcon, what it would mean to put Yabushige back into Osaka. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think we have to ask the question.

What did he tell Mariko that he expected her to do? Meet with, you know, connect with Oshiba, I think is definitely part of it. Figure out a way to, quote, free the hostages. is part of it. Create this catch-22. Right. But does that mean literally fight in the courtyard?

Does that mean commit Sepaku? Does that mean all the things that she does in this episode? How precise were his instructions? Or did he just know that she was someone who,

you know, the falcon that he could point in the right direction and know that she would know how to get the job done? Yeah. I think there's a lot of trust

from Tornaga in the fact that Marika, weirdly enough, because she wants to die and has accepted death, it gives her a power that these other lords don't have. They're not willing to go to the lengths that she is. And so, yeah, I don't know that Tornaga's plan, as usual, is carved out to every detail. Right.

It's more about putting this very smart, capable woman in this situation where she has really nothing to lose. And she can keep pushing and pushing and pushing the envelope in this weird game of chicken with Ishido in particular until someone has to back down. and he knows more than anyone, that Mariko is not going to do that. She's just going to keep moving forward until something is accomplished. I think to circle back to the Ochiba factor, I think that is the key factor in all of this.

We read that quote last week from the book about Toranauga being someone who waits for the chink and the armor and then stabs at the jugular through it. And this idea that Ochiba, as someone who has power to point the air and wonder, direction or another and therefore lend legitimacy is important. But also as we've seen as like maybe the one weakness of Shito has, he's like love struck with her.

And so she- Well, congratulations to them on their engagement too. I mean, many happy returns. We're really waiting for those two crazy kids. The wedding episode. I would hope, you know, they're registered, grain and barrel, like go pick up the dishware. Wonderful. Ochiba's the thing.

Like, he's got to capture Oshiba. And Mariko as her childhood friend is the best instrument. to do that. We got this email from listener Sebastian, who, in response to that quote we read about Tornaga and the Chin of the Armor, pointed out this, you know, because Tornaga is based on a historical figure, pointed out this sort of well-known, at least according to his wife, Japanese phrase about these like three famous leaders of Japan. And he said, my partner who was born and raised in Osaka told me they grew up with a

terrible about the leadership style of the three of these three leaders of Japan that perfectly explained Toronaga's disposition. When asked how to make a caged bird sing, Nabonaga answers, if it doesn't sing, I will kill it. Hideyoshi answers, I will make the bird sing. And Tokugawa, who is the Toronaga comp, says, I will wait for it to sing. This is then summed up even tighter in a children saying, Oda makes the pie, Nakamura Bakes the pie and Tokugawa eats the pie. For the record, I both make and eat the pie.

You're quite the baker. I'm not sure that everyone knows that about you. It is true. And then last but only sort of in the big picture, Vane, I want to talk about how much the show has been building to this for Mariko. In terms of making sure that we understand her unique stature, because there is both the shame element that Mariko has talked about, But also she holds, maybe rivaled only by Oceba, holds this position in the court.

This everyone reveres her. Everyone admires her. She is so talented. She is so beautiful. She is so smart that to lay a finger on her, you know, everyone considers that a crime. Yeah. And as O'Ciba says, she was the girl growing up who got everything right. Right.

Who was always in the right place. She was always doing the right things. And that creates that sort of esteem. in a public way. And I feel like we know that from spending these episodes with her. Nobody has to say that. I mean, Ociba kind of literally says that a little later on, but like nobody has to give us a speech about how revered Mariko is.

We've just watched her week to week be this person. And if you want to know what separates this show from other shows or other movies that have wild twists and turns or unexpected fates of characters, think about these last three episodes. We have Nagakato dying for Tornaga by taking matters into his own. own hands. We have Hiramatsu dying for Torinaga by showing, like, feigning opposition as part of this scheme. And then we have ultimately Marcos' fate in this episode as a matter of showing her loyalty, of fulfilling her own purpose and something that she wants. And when you think about all three of those

characters and how we got there, there's been a long thread all season long to help us understand why those characters would do those things. This isn't just someone doing something impulsive randomly and unexpectedly in a way that contradicts their character. We know why Mariko is standing in front of the door at the end of this episode. It makes complete sense, given everywhere that she's been. The other really important building block that we've been following is this idea of her words as power. Mariko using language, you flagged this really early on, this idea of creating a private world via language, which she does in her own way with Achiba in this episode.

But just has throughout via translation, via something that I think it was Rachel Condo in the official podcast said, via specific silences, has just always been one to use words or silences or clever translations, or order of the case may be, as her way to navigate through this world, as someone who cannot use necessarily brute force, et cetera. And Yabushige is on it. He's asking, like, are you translate this shit honestly? She was. She was in that moment.

But I think the fact that he clocked it is significant. And he's just like, fine, I'll do it myself. And she also, the up-down of disdain that Mariko gives Yabushige upon asking that question. Look, great, great scene. I thought I'm called for. He's right. He's right.

The fact that I knew this already before we started recording, the fact that Rob is still firmly on Team Yovashige after this episode. Why would you not be? It's a choice. We'll talk about it later. It's a choice. Mariko is a two-hearted individual, someone who is of two-heart. Something that Rachel Condo said in the official podcast that I thought was really interesting

is she felt like this episode had three phases of Mariko. Phase one is strength, and that's sort of her standing up to Ishido in front of everyone. There's courage, which is, like, strength, she knows what she's doing. She's confident in her plan. She knows what she's doing. When it comes to trying to leave the city, that's courage because they might let her leave. She doesn't know what's going to happen in that moment, but it takes courage for her to navigate that. And then she calls the final phase of this episode for Mariko, the heart.

Where with like the Sepaku and all that, there's like tremendous strength for Mariko in this episode and tremendous vulnerability as well. She is both prepared to die and also afraid of what that means. Yes. And especially when it comes to her faith. Yeah. What it means to be Japanese and commit Sepaku versus being Catholic and her immortal soul. There are many ways to die. You know, and it's one thing if you're calling your shot,

but it's another thing if you're calling your shot in a way that will, at least by your beliefs, damn your immortal soul, as you're saying. There's a wide range of stuff involved in that. And in particular, as you're saying, the difference in her strength in confronting Ashito versus her strength and bravery in the courtyard, fighting off soldiers and trying to fight her way through, I think are very different things. And maybe this is my 1999 movie brain coming off of this draft we just did. but there's the great George Clooney spiel and Three Kings about courage being something you find.

A movie, I got on my draft card. Perhaps you did. Maybe a little salty about it. But courage being the thing like you do something you're scared of and you find courage after the fact. And I think one of the great things about Anna's performance in even fight choreography is you get a sense of that this is someone who is desperate and flailing. And a little scared in that moment, even though we know Mark was doing the thing that she's supposed to do and that she agreed to do and that she planned to do.

Right. But you put yourself in that space, surrounded by spears, looking at all of these fallen men who have just died for your cause and Toronaga's cause, and it's a different feeling. I also think it's a really interesting needle-le-threat in terms of her competency in that moment. She knows how to fight with her words. To fight with a weapon in the courtyard is something that, yes, she is trained to do, and we knew that about her.

But it's also not something she does, is known to do. Recreationally. Right. And so she's not incompetent, but she's not just like slicing and dicing her way through the courtyard. No. Right. And so I think that's a really important middle ground to put her in through a lot of this episode where she's like, she's brave and afraid. Yes.

And both of those things can be true. And there's also the weird dynamic of that fight where Ishido's men don't want to kill her. Right. And it's been made clear by the other lords who are not Ashito that they should not kill her. Yeah. But they also need to stop her. And so it's a lot of parrying to parry and to control and trying to pin her spear down more than it is trying to actually kill her in the way that they've killed the other of Tornaga's men. Yeah, just went through them like Buda.

All right. So we're going to do sort of a chronological run through the episode. Starting with this flashback of pregnant Mariko we get from 14 years ago, we have been up down and all around on this question of flashbacks. How did you feel like this one worked? I thought this worked well in terms of illuminating something that's so key to this episode, which is she may not be a recreational spear user, but she has one hobby and it is trying to die as often as possible. It's also important to establish this connection she has with Father Alvito.

This is the beginning of her faith journey, the item of the crucifix, which is front and center on everything that she's wearing, the rosary throughout the episode until she takes it off and gives it to Blackthorn. But also this idea that she and Alvito met, he says, when they were both too young to have seen and gone through all the things that they've gone through. And it's also the thing he says to her when he gives her the rosary, he says, for when you have no words and you just need something to hold on to, which is such an interesting thing to say to someone like Mariko, who almost always has the words and finds herself in moments in this episode where she doesn't have the words that she has used to. to protect herself her whole life. It also kind of introduces the idea of a shared bond between them in the sense of finding purpose.

Yeah. And this is something Alvito talks about, like, God giving him purpose in hanging, like, hanging on and staying around and that you find a purpose in things. And if we think about Marco as a two-hearted person, she could see a purpose in what God may have planned for her. And there's also a clear purpose in everything she is doing in this episode. I mean, there's this whole exchange with her in Blackthorne later about the meaning of death and the meaning of life.

And for her, they're kind of one and the same thing, right? Both of those things can carry meaning in the same way that the swords can carry meaning and the pheasant can carry meaning. Like anything can carry purpose. It's just about finding what the right purpose for you is. And that's her arc to me. In this episode as the culmination of everything she's been going through, yes, she wants to die, but how can that death mean something beyond just getting her a way out?

I think also the significant of her being, like, heavily pregnant in that flashback reminds us again that Mariko is, even though we had not seen her son for a long time in the show, a mother. He's grown up a lot, it feels like. She's a mother. And this question, I mean, one of the things that tests her the most in this episode, both in that exchange she has with her son, and then later, Alchiba brings it up sort of as a last desperate bid is, you know, as someone who was a daughter whose father did something that left her sort of stranded in this world. her dying here is not just going to impact her. It's going to impact everything, but what is the personal cost to her son here.

And he feels ashamed of her in a way that, honestly, I've never got the impression that she felt ashamed of her father in that way. I think there's been inconveniences for her. She's been challenged and put into bad positions like marrying Buntar, something she didn't really, it seems like, ever want to be doing. Right. But that put her in a position of relative safety, been her father's actions.

So this is, it's a weird kind of cyclical element of parents and their strained relationships with their children. But she's looking at her own son and her son's looking back with a kind of disdain that she never had for her father when he was trying to do what he believed was right. Something I loved about this episode. I think, I think we have heard from her, not in talking about her father, but in talking about the shame of her stature. Yes.

She has talked about it, I think, in like an emotional, shameful way. So I think it's so powerful the number of times in the same. episode, she says, I am the daughter of a kid. Yes, including the final one, I think is incredibly meaningful. So, like, cloaking, like, gathering her, what is supposed to be her shame around her and using his strength, I think is one of my favorite things that happens in this episode. I think with her, I always wondered, you know, like, how much of that shame is real and how much of it is performative.

Like, there's the thing you have to say to other people, like, of course I'm ashamed that my father did these horrible things. And how much of that is actually what she believes? because if she thinks her purpose is carrying out this sort of martyrdom on behalf of her father. Yeah. How much shame could she really carry for him? I mean, I don't think she's ashamed of him. I think she's ashamed of the position that it is.

I think there have been interactions I would say specifically with Blackthorn, where she's at least talked with like some bitterness. Or, you know, Buntaro has used it as a cudgel against her whole life. Yes. You know, so I think there are ways in which it has, she's been pinned under it. But I agree with you. I don't think she's ever thought of her father and been embarrassed of him. And it very much can be both.

Two hearts, at least. On the boat to Osaka front, is there anything that you want to... I mean, I will say... There's like a brief nod to something that takes up a lot of real estate in the book, which is the trade relations between Japan and China. So, like, Blackthorn tries to sum it up for us in, like, one little, like, trade for dummies, a little moment. They're a little nod to that, but anything, you know, other than the translation question that Yabashiga asked, anything else you want to say about the entry?

I hate this fucking city, he says, about Osaka. Yeah. Honestly, I mean, I love that they're letting Yabushige cook a little more in this episode. Obviously, Mariko has a lot to do. And the reframing of the episode around them in particular, and Blackthorn certainly is heavily involved too. Sure, he's there. He is there. But it all felt like a big reminder that Torinaguk has so.

such a long shadow over all of these other characters. And when they are around him, there's a bit of a paralyzing effect on what they feel like they can do. And so removing the story from Toranaaga's immediate orbit, even if it's on his basically direct orders, it gives Mariko a lot more agency and a lot more place in the story to do interesting things. But it's also, I think it's always been throughout the season how impactful, just like how Mariko's certain silences are impactful.

Toranauga's absences Always. Are so impactful. That's when the biggest, loudest, most violent shit tends to happen. That's when Josin gets a cannonball to the lower half his body.

Samurai soup. I love this show. On re-watching the episode, watching them walk into the courtyard where we will later see her make her stand. And there are all these, again, Fred Toyahue

directed this episode, also directed eightfold fence and broken to the, broken the fist. So, like, two of our favorite episodes this season, he will also be direct

and finale, like kind of a directing MVP of this season. So the decision to, in that entry into the courtyard that happens in the beginning of the episode, shoot a lot of it down from the parapet where we're seeing the backs of archers, who will later be firing arrows down at Mariko, I thought was like a really interesting way to give us a sense of the physical space. 100%. That's going to be necessary later. It also creates the visual dynamic of, even though this isn't crimson sky, as we may have

imagined it. Right. As far as Toranauga's plan goes, this is a breaching of the castle walls in a way, right? Like, this is an invasion, and it's a quieter one, and it's a subtler one. But Mariko's purpose there is pretty clear. Like, she is there to fuck shit up for Ishido and to create an unstable dynamic with all of these other hostages, where they either have the right to leave or they're being forced to be explicitly called hostages. Right.

And, you know, if anyone's going to give us a little bit of exposition on what's going on, It's always lovely when it's Mariko Because yeah, she lays out the stakes You know, all the noble families Have members here who are being held hostage Even if they're not being called hostages And it's part of her mission to Put Ashido in a bind around that

Anything you want to say about your babe Kuri And Shizo, welcoming Mariko to Osaka? Absolute legends I mean, they're mostly just hanging out in this episode Yeah Just kind of yes-anding everything that Mariko does for the most part. I'm glad to have them back in the fold.

I'm hopeful, you know, we don't know what happens at the end of this episode as far as the fate of every character in that room. I'm really hoping they're okay, among others. But if this is the last we see of Lady Keir, I'd be extremely bummed by that. Rob floated the idea earlier that he's like, hope that baby's okay. I was like, I don't know what's true we're watching, Rob. Well, one where a baby died in the first episode, Joe. You were correct.

And we've seen it in a little box. Okay, Curie says in this moment, she says, Let us hope this works, which gives us sort of like an early, what's the plan, what's happening, what are we doing here? Curie's in on it. Also takes the note and just pockets it immediately.

I'm not even opening this in open air out here. Let's hope it works. So at the end of episode eight ends with Mariko saying, like, I'm ready. And Kerry's like, I hope this works. And we at home are like, what works? What are we doing?

What's the plan? There's this side bit that I don't think is that important about the Blackshick captain and Alvito talking about Blackthorne being there. Alvito playing the role that Toranooga hope he played by saying like... Just a perfect little falcon. He watched his best friend die. He's not fucking around. But the one thing that I think is worth highlighting here is Alvito says that John Blackthorn is here is only because he's trying to find his own way out. So Alvito and plenty of people in this world and Blackthorn himself for a while think that Blackthorn's philosophy is only self-interest working for himself.

Well, especially if he has been cut loose in the way that Alvito believes. What else does he have going on here other than himself? I would say Mariko. That's an internal journey he takes in this episode because we're going to have to talk a little later on about what it means to draw a full. furrow that goes the other way in a carefully tended rock garden. Yes. I have many thoughts on that. I do have many thoughts on that.

I can't wait. And then you mentioned, you mentioned, like, that the sky is not as crimsoning and you thought. I did note how much of this episode takes place under cover of night in dusk. Partially from a production standpoint, that helps cover this expansive castle that you're supposed to be giving us. Without a doubt. But also, just, like, you know, gives a lot of cloak and dagger energy to, you know, to this whole episode

that I really liked. How did you feel about your guy Yobushige? Trying to teach John how to bow correctly? What's not to love? Really? And I actually think

a real surprise in this episode is how important Kiama ends up being. Yes. There's a lot of time spent reminding us who Kiyama is, what's important to him, how he might be a player

in this scene. Right. So in this interaction with Blackthor that he has and they walk in, first of all, I think this is the first time we hear Kiama speak English. Is that correct?

Well, Portuguese, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, which is just sort of like a, oh, yeah. Moment. And then, you know, saying, you know, you're a pirate, you got here too late, all of that sort of stuff. But to your point, underlining Kiama is the Christian one. That's an important thing to remember. We've been reminded a couple times.

But not that Christian one. But not that Christian one. A false Christian. Yeah. So, like, Mariko. More of a creister guy. Mariko makes this appeal to him

as a fellow Christian will you help me not commit a mortal sin? Yes. And he nods, but does he show up, he does not. He does not. But I do think reminding us

that he is a Christian, showing him throughout this episode, I would say not exactly being on board with what Ashido is trying to do. He's looking very concerned upon the parapet. He's not vibein with everything that's happening in the courtyard. Mariko must not be harmed

or whatever. I'm like, that's the most ineffectual protection he could offer, I think. It's not great, but I do think it's clear that he's put off by a lot of what's happened here, including the hostage situation, and we're reminded that he is not a hard and fast member of the Ashido voting block.

Speaking of Ashido. Ashido and counsel, but really, it looks like just Ashito on a throne. Well, and Achiba. Yeah, and the air is... The air is with his iPad. Yeah. A real iPad kid energy for the air. My favorite Is it when he goes to play with the rocks?

Yes. What did she was like, the air is so excited to meet Blackthorn. And then we just get gaming like in the background just sort of like, yep, picking up some rocks. Got to keep yourself busy. That's all we've seen him do in this show, right? He's just like wandering around with rocks. He did love archery, right? Wasn't there a thing at the beginning when Tornaga goes to meet him where he's doing some archery practice or something like that?

Was he doing archery and not just more rock stuff in that scene? It could have been more rocks. I could be misremembering. He's definitely very passionate about rocks. He's like one of those kids who just like loves tractors, but he's like, it's rocks for me. Yes. Okay. I mean, it could be both.

It's a little tonka trucks. You know, you're lifting the rocks. Yeah. All right. So we get this council room scene. Is it your sense? I mean, speaking of the air, he's not a real power player here, but he like points to a, like, talking to a Blackthorn.

It seems, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I took that as, I didn't know what to make of it. Yeah. In retrospect, maybe it's just a childlike. Hey, that's the barbarian. Yeah, that I heard so much about it.

Or back again. Your guy, Yabashige's plan goes south very quickly. I have no idea what his plan is. Because he has to know this is not going to work, right? I think he thought it might. I will say this. He calls Blackthorn very well-trained and a good sea captain. I think both of those things are kind of true.

And house-broken at this point, I would say, relatively speaking. Great. the Blackthorn of earlier this season would have interjected or made a scene here or wanted to talk about the Black Ship because what else does he want to talk about? And he sits there and he does exactly what Yabushige told him to do which is be quiet, be respectful, bow when you're supposed to bow.

It felt like an interesting moment for Blackthorn in that way of him finally kind of understanding, at least in Yabushige's terms, what he needs to be doing here and what he doesn't need to be doing here. And he doesn't even, like, how much were you reminded? Maybe you're not as Dune 2 cooked as I am. But no major spoilers for Dune 2. But there's a sequence in Dune 2 where Paul Atreides is making a big move. And Chani's in the day his character, like, keeps standing up.

And Gertie Halle keeps, like, pulling her down. That's what I was thinking when Mariko was, like, making her stand. I was like, is Black Thor going to, like, stand up? Yomshu he's going to yank him down. But, no, he just sat there and watched her do her thing. When she walks in, though, and it should be said, I think in her best costume of the whole season, just like an exquisite robe, the focus is on Oceba's face. Yes.

We're looking at Oceba as Mariko enters the room, and this is the beginning of the We Were Girls Together thread that is so important for this episode. Well, there's also such a difference between the, meeting kind of starting with Yabushi and Blackthorn in place. Yeah. Versus Marka makes an entrance, right? The energy of the room changes when she walks in. Yeah.

Like a falcon on the dive. Love her saying, like, Tornaug is so devastated about the loss of his son. He's got other sons, as Is Shito points out. So it's fine. Yeah, and Ociba voices the, since we were girls. Yeah. Like, right out in the open here. And they are having their own conversation inside of this conversation.

Ociba saying, later saying like, let's talk about this in private. Can we take this offline? Could this be personal chat? What do you think? A DM? But before we get there, we get this poetry competition conversation. And this first line moment when Mariko says, While the snow remains veiled in the haze of cold evening, a leafless branch.

Ashido blown away. Yeah. This was to me the posting, angsty, song lyrics move. Sometimes you just want people to know you're not okay. I feel like this is a message to Oceba. I mean, it's definitely a message to Oceba. She's very perturbed.

And it's not just, it wasn't just a phase mom, emo moment for Mariko. I think this word, the language here of leafless branch, something that I think I neglected to mention earlier when we were talking about Oceba getting this new name. is that Achiba means falling leaves, which will come back again. We'll talk about poetry a little bit more later. But this idea of a leafless branch as it relates to Achiba's name is part of the message, which we can talk about later. And even if you didn't clock that in watching it, the attention drawn to the phrase leafless branch, including Yabushi, gave me, and like, what the fuck, that was terrible poetry. It's spring.

Why are you talking about leafless branches? It recurs so much that it's very clear that it's coded in some way. So he's standing by Gabashege, a Philistine who doesn't understand fine art and maybe betrays his compatriots in the dead of night. He just likes a different kind of poetry. And that's okay. He killed the drummer also. This is not a supporter of the arts. And Rob, I thought you were a supporter of the arts.

I don't know. He was encouraging poetry earlier in this season. I just think the genre is a little different. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about zebbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zetbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines.

It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia.

If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. The gasps and whispers in the room when Mariko says, I won't be here for the poetry competition. Yeah. And it was a real like, were you a theater kid at all, Rob?

No, no, no, no. A trick if you're a theater kid, if you're supposed to do gasp and whispers in the background, as you're supposed to say, like, peas and carrots or like, you know, you go like, peas and carrots, like, something like that. That's, like, definitely what I heard is, like, everyone in the rooms is, like, just peas and carrotsing in the background in this moment. As Chita says, you forgot your manners. And then it says the manner is closed, and she says, the manner is closed when you have the manners to let me finish. And Ociba looks so worried. This isn't even her, like, death blow to Ishido, which is just about to come. But like, how did you feel watching this, like, watching this escalate? Were you like, Mariko, what the hell are you doing? Or are you just like, Mariko, you're a star? Like. More Mariko, you're a star. Yeah. But it is so interesting to watch it through Oceba's reactions. given where we have seen Oceiba in previous episodes.

And in particular, something that we have been trying to figure out, which is the significance of that scene last week. Yes. With Dioen's death and kind of like, what does this mean for Ocebo? Why is she reacting the way that she's reacting? Where does this place us in her story? And I felt like I understood where Ocebo was coming from more here

and the panic she was feeling and the kind of dissociation she was feeling, having that other tie already sever. If you think about this as someone who's already experienced a recent death, someone who's already a maternal-ish figure. A person, basically the only two people who knew her before. And Marcos coming in here, and she's heard all of these rumors about Mariko courting death and wanting to be a martyr.

And she hasn't had a chance to really confront her about it or see the version of Marco and reconcile it with the girl she knew. And to see her walk into this room and throw down the gauntlet, I think is a very jarring thing. And so we see this woman who has been manipulative and mustache twirling and basically willing to do whatever it takes to get what she wants and to protect her air, protect the air, protect her son, all of a sudden feel much more vulnerable and much more childlike in her way. And there is that reversion of Mariko is walking in and she becomes a girl again. That's kind of how I felt watching it. I think I like that interpretation a lot. I think that is largely true that it's significant that she does not fully drop the.

voice until she's one-on-one with Mariko. Yes. It sort of gets like turned down a little bit. And I think a phrase that we mentioned a couple weeks ago that I believe it was like one of the episode directors was talking about a conversation she had with the actress who plays of Chiba is. Yeah, Fumi Nakado. Thank you.

Who is killer in this episode. Aces. And emotional strip tease is the phrase that we brought up a couple weeks ago. and I think I only better understand that now having seen some of the layers peeled away because like the simpering and the put on voice and all of that

is the various layers of onion or the various folds of the fence that she is put between herself and other people and then when she's talking to Mariko when she's talking to Mariko is almost entirely stripped away I mean they're still navigating inside the bounds of something stripped these might be too linear she's taken off layers she's putting them back on there's a

and take, for sure. This is getting way ahead, but I think one of the best things I've seen in this show is when Fumia Zichiba turns to the camera, a fat tear rolls down. A single tier. And then she smooths it away into a smile. Yes. And immediately the voice modulates. Yeah, comes back up.

And she's putting up the veneer again. So good. Okay, but to go back to this moment, here's Mariko's death blow. She says, I am no peasant to be trod upon. It reminded me of that, are you a John the Lainty fan? I mean, casually. In Newtown, I think it is. He's talking about what it feels like to be bullied by middle schoolers

and how they will always find your main insecurity. And he's like, no, that's the one thing that I'm insecure about. And so with deadly accuracy, Mariko finds Ashito's. most vulnerable point, which is that he is a peasant. This is much, reading these chapters in the book, we're so interesting, we'll talk about some of the differences a little later on. But what I love about what the show did adapting this here is because, like, Ashito has a real violent outburst of this, and he's like, that Tycho is a peasant, plenty of, some of my best friends are peasants. Like, it's fine to be a peasant. And then later, people are, like, really talking about how she really, like,

stuck it to him with this line. This is, this is a line for the book. think it might be Abashige, but it's someone who says, that took his fruit and squeeze them before everyone. Wow. So that is what Mariko accomplished in this moment. But I like the much more subtle approach the show that has. This is where Mariko cloaks herself in her lineage. It says, I'm the daughter.

My line has been samurai for years, and I will never be captive, or hostage or confined. I'm free to go as I please, as is anyone. Her defiance is awesome to watch here. So good. I mean, Anna So Y is in the zone, this whole episode. We've already talked about all the different things she gets to play. But this version of her rolling into the vulnerability and the gut punch we see with her son rolling,

it's like all of these different dimensions of that character and all the things she's going through, leading to kind of the agony of facing the death that she thought she wanted initially when she believed she might have to actually commit suicide into the acceptance at the end of this episode of standing in front of the door. Again, it's hard to imagine a way for a character to earn it more than that. We are seeing the full, full trail for a really great, really well-drawn character.

As the number one member of Yabushika's PR team, how do you feel about this next moment when he addresses Mariko down? I think he's doing what he's supposed to do. I think he's playing his part. Look, we're in crisis mode over here at Yabushige PR Central. This isn't our best day We're all going to be staying late

We already ordered takeout It's going to be one of those nights Call the wife Look at the end of the day He's in the foxhole with everybody else You know He's one of a piece He's flippin and flopping though

He's like tell me to Rana I can be on team Taranaga Tell me Toranaugas plans See you say flipping and flopping I say savvy Okay I say he's reading the room Ziggin and Zagin

Yeah All right This is when Blackthorn has the great line you'd walk into a sword just to prove the blade is sharp. He's like, you can do poetry, I can do poetry.

You, me, we're the same. How did you feel about that line? He's right. I think he's getting the plan. I think he's starting to understand what's going on here. This is, she says to him here, can you do this for the sake

of everything we've been through? Which is something she deploys essentially with Achiba, right? This idea of like, we've been through things together. Not can you do this? But, like, we've been, we dug coal together, right?

So, like... And she's also asking Blackthorn to chill. Like, I'm going to do my thing. Right. Your job is to not interfere. Stay on that parapet. To borrow from our coworker, Rob Barvilla, don't get involved. You can mutter my name once, and that's about all you're allowed to do.

So she makes that bid to Blackthorn, to Achiba, and to Alvido. Like, this is our history. Let's do this because of our history together. You know, again, this is just like, I don't know that an actress and a character has had an episode like this in a long time in the Presby Television world. Incredible. Well, it makes sense that she's doing that because, to me, this whole episode, really this whole plot with Mariko and Ishido is about calling bluffs. She is intending to call his bluff by trying to leave and force him to do something as it relates to either her or the hostages. Right. He tries later to call what he believes is Mariko's bluff.

And really the whole council doesn't believe that she's actually willing to commit suicide and damn herself per her faith. And O'Chieb is like, um, maybe you don't understand her. You don't know, you don't get it. And she is not messing around. But she is insisting to everyone around her, like, don't check me in this. Like, I need to go my way and your job. If you were trying to support me, the way you do that is by stepping aside. Yeah.

We already talked about the scene with her son. I'm fine to skip past that and go to the, what I'm calling Mariko's long. walk. This is a trope in recent television that I am such a fan of. Mallory and I spent literally hours on House of R talking about King Viseris's long walk to the Iron Throne in House of the Dragon, season one, Loki's long walk to his throne in Loki's season two. This is just like a trend in recent television that I love to talk about. You can talk about Circe's long walk if you want to. I love everyone's react was really nailing the reaction shots. The gang's all here.

Yes. Cheba's under the robe, but she's here. She's not going to risk any, like, sunburn, but she is here. Oh, no. I don't get a sense that my guy gets out very much. He's here on the parapet. Everyone wants to see. This is the event of the season.

Yeah, everyone wants to see. He doesn't even have his little, like, face veil. He's just out and about with Kiama. Like, he wants to see what's going on. Look, you can either go to theater telling you stories that you already know. Right. Or you can go here and see what becomes of Mariko and her. her merry band.

You know, when push comes to shove, she says, then it's true, we're all being held against our will. And that, like, very Mariko, who is not a performative person. Well, she is. She's always sort of often acting the demure when she's not demure and that sort of stuff. But she's not showy. Right. So this showy voice from her.

This felt very Toranaaga. Yes. Like, I'm going to call out for everyone watching exactly what is happening. Right. As his voice piece in that moment. And then, you know, we talked to. about the fight. We talked about, as you said, like, they don't really want to hurt her. I think Annis Wise, like, the scream as she's slashing and, like, spinning around and stuff

like that. And then she says, and this is almost a direct quote from the book, it is not possible to fight through all these men. We must go back, and then everything that she says about the Sepuku. There was something about, and I don't know if James Clavel meant this in the way that he wrote it in the book. But it's not the way she delivered. It's not possible to fight through all these men that made it feel especially gendered. Did that hit for you in any kind of way? I can't say I collect that.

Okay. I just felt to me like as a moment of like I have my whole life been trying to navigate this patriarchal world and this, you know, I am surrounded by these men with swords. For sure. And how can you, how can I do this? It's impossible to do this. So navigating all these men, not fun, generally speaking. Would not recommend it, but some of us have to try, apparently, especially Mariko in this moment.

As you mentioned, Ashita's like, she's not going to do it. What are we even worried about? Yeah. This is directly what Ochuba says. She says, it is, and I loved this. It is her vengeance on fate, on all of us. She will die to be free of the disgrace that has burdened her, and then all of Osaka will be disgraced for letting her die. guess what? This is a well-written show.

Very well-written show. And Oceba in particular has so many bars in this episode. Again, there are certain characters who do speak poetically, even outside of the poetry. Oceba can always be counted on for that. Mariko, I think, can be counted on for that. Tornaga, when he's involved, is one of those sorts of voices. Yabushige is coming in with a different tonality. Okay.

Blackthorn's a little coarser. Ishito, true to kind of his upbringing, is a little more plain spoken. Wow. It's a little more straightforward. I'm calling him a peasant. I'm not calling him a pod. I'm just saying, you know, Tough stuff.

He didn't have the same fru-frew liberal arts education. There it is. Okay. There's the energy we want. The fact that Ociba goes from saying this very true thing. And then if she was like,

what should I do? She's like, I could never. I could never. I would never presume. What are you even talking about? That's not my role. I'm just here.

I'm ornamental. But then she says, if you let her die, all the families were of olds. If you let her leave, all the hostas will insist on leaving. But I wouldn't have one opinion one way or another one you should do.

This is just why you're screwed. The women all show up to wait for Mariko, and this is just like furthering, further underlining her stature in the court, right? All these women sort of like escape curfew to come watch Mariko in, you know, what they think are her final moments here. Before that happens, we do get the scene between Ochiba and Mariko, which is with apologies to Yabushige, where I'm again going to talk about poetry. but what else do you want to say about this interaction between these women? We've already talked about a little bit, but... Yeah, I mean, that the single-tier turn in particular, I think, is the highlight of this whole exchange, but also just seeing Ochiba so pained by what has become of her friend

and the fate that she has kind of welcomed in a way in terms of this not just slow march through the castle, but slow march for years and years and years towards her death. Like it makes everything that Mariko has been going. through makes sense when you view it through that lens of her just kind of constantly courting her own demise, her own downfall. The question is just like, is she going to be allowed to kill herself and in what fashion? Or is she going to be allowed to die in in what fashion? And to not see someone like Marco for years and years and years and realize that this is the truth of her life is a tough way to find someone who means something to you. I think this thing she says, I won't read the whole thing,

but it is just like bar after bar. But that idea that she says, the thing she says about like the anger growing inside of her gave me chills the lady who lives in the room of fallen leaves is what Oceiba means and we have to remember what Mariko said last week when she said to Toranaaga

her poetry was if I could use words or maybe it was two weeks ago if I could use words like scattering flowers and falling leaves what a bonfire my poems would make and I mentioned that scattering flowers was added by the writers, otherwise line for line. So if I could use words like falling leaves, what a bonfire my poem would make? And falling leaves as it connects to Oceba is sort of like, if I could use my words,

and Oceba as this sort of like instrument for our agenda, this is going to be a bigger explosion, so to seek, like, than anything you could have done with your troops, Toranauga, right? What a call out by you on the scattering flowers, though? Scattering flowers come in a huge here in episode nine. This is how we understand why scattering flowers is at it, I think, right? So she says, The accepting death isn't surrender.

Flowers are only flowers because they fall. Thank you. This is, I tease this for you before we started recording, that I found something that, like, I was so proud of. And then Anna and Emily on the official podcast just, like, kind of said it. This is, there is a real life figure that all of these characters are based on. And we'll talk about this a little bit more in, like, I guess what we're calling our spoiler.

section in this episode about the real-life person that Mariko is based on. Hosecawa Gracia, but one of her poems that she wrote is only by knowing when to fall, do flowers become flowers, and people become people.

What they did is they took this poetry from the real person, because Mariko never says this in the book. Yeah. So James, the flower motif, and I know because I weren't searched the word flower in my Kindle versions of the book is not something

James Covell did. He had other stuff to write about. Trade routes, sex toys. There's a lot going on. But you can imagine that the writers in the Shogun room, and again, we will talk to them in an episode next week, and hopefully we'll get to talk about some of the stuff, but they're taking Shogun the text

as the core text of this show, but they also have the real-life figures that James Covell was drawing on, and adding in some things about those people into the text to maybe fill in some of the gaps that they felt like Clavel didn't fill in or push the story and nudge it in one direction or another. You know what I mean? I always think the most interesting adaptations do this. There's ways to work in whether it's the inspiration of real life characters in historical fiction, whether it's the authors themselves. And if there's like an autobiographical element in the story or like prospective characters,

they represent the author in some way, there's always a manner to adapt details or nuance or a framing that is true to those things in a way that transcends the book. And to me, that explodes these sorts of narratives from being, oh, this is a faithful page-by-page adaptation to this is at work with something to say about what it's adapting. I completely agree. Our listener, Sean, and I shared Sean's really wonderful, very long email with you, Rob. Sean, who is currently working on his dissertation at BU, is a huge showkin. but is not watching the show, but is listening to the podcast until he can finish his dissertation and watch the show. We are rooting for you, Sean.

But Sean wrote an incredible, detailed, notes-laden, long email for us. Phenomenal stuff. I'm just going to read one very small part where he talks about this known phrase in Japanese that is translates to, the best blossom is the cherry blossom. The best man is the warrior. It's a Japanese proverb that originated in the medieval period. It was also rendered as, quote, among blossoms, the cherry blossom, among men, the warrior. The proverb means that as the cherry blossom, Sakura, is considered foremost among the flowers.

So the warrior samurai, usually referred to in Japanese as bushi, was foremost among men. The samurai was also likened to cherry blossom as his life, while glorious, was prone to a sudden end during military service, similar to petal shed by cherry blossy. blossoms or chamelea. So you called out the cherry blossoms last week, but I thought it was really interesting if this is like a known phrase, this like comping of the cherry blossom to the warrior. Definitely. And the, I mean, I don't know what it's like in Japan, but here in California, the plum blossoms of the cherry blossoms always come out too early. Like we get that fall spring, at least in Northern California. This is our North Cal experience. The plum blossoms come out. It's like so

beautiful. The cherry blossoms come out. And then the rain comes out. back. And then the street is just awash in like beautiful sodden pink trampled petals. This is just the yearly tragedy of the, they always flower too soon and then they're gone. I think you just wrote some poetry right there. What do you think Abashiga would think of it? It's not his speed. Not enough guys boiling alive. John tells Mariko that it's the mark of a coward for Toranaug to send her to do this. Do you agree? about sending women to do your bidding? Not women.

About Tornaga sending Mariko to do his dirty work. I think Tornaga sending basically everyone to do his dirty work. Yeah. He's a kind of cowardice. He's able to operate with a remove that very few characters are allowed to operate with. And so for him, he's moving pieces around on a board, and those people are dying. Those are real people with lives who believe they are serving him and trying to serve him faithfully. Meanwhile, he just gets to execute his clever little plants.

So I think there is a, the remove of that, if not cowardice, is at least a kind of relative safety. The fact that she's a woman, which I think is what Blackthorne is suggesting here, is less relevant to me. I agree. Okay. Our listener, Mikal, this is kind of long, and again, it's a Thrones comp. So if you're listening to this and you don't want a Thrones comp, please skip ahead. And if you do drink, I think that's where we're at. I think we've kept it fairly light, but enjoy your disgusting coconut liqueurri.

Okay, so McHawain wrote, when Shogun started, I assumed that our leading man was cast in a similar mode to Ned Stark, albeit rather much smarter. Taranaga seemed unusually empathetic and canny towards the cruelties of a culture, which is not an indictment of Japan. Every culture has its cruelties in a way that reminded me of Ned's perspective on life. In particular, the moment in the pilot where Toranauga observes that he doesn't appreciate the, quote, pointless deaths of Fuji's husband and son seemed like a clue in this direction. However, if there is a character scale with Ned Stark on one end and Taiwan Lanister on the other, I feel like Toranauga has been sliding down it with each successive episode, and Episode 8 tilted the angle so sharply that Toranauga skated almost right down to the bad end. The return of the, quote, pointless death refrain really highlighted this for me

and tists me over into thinking that Toranaga's definition of, quote, pointless, is perhaps less a Ned-like, quote, should not have happened, and more a Taiwanese-quote was a waste because it was not employed to my purposes. Obviously, it's an imperfect comparison if I thought Toranauga was Ned Stark with brains. He seems instead to be a Taiwan-Lanininster with feelings, but those feelings don't change his actions, and those are brutal and cold to a degree I really didn't expect. Tornaaga doesn't seem to have been driven to extreme so much as he rode up to them himself,

very, very well prepared. It's still a little startling to think you were rooting for Ned, only to find yourself on Team Taiwan all along. What do you think about that? Leaving the Thrones Composite, let's say. What do you think about this slow, to talk about like peeling back the layers on a character, this reveal of who Toranauga is?

Yeah, it's really not development or change in Toranauga. It's a change of our understanding of what he's after and what he's capable of. I actually disagree with the point that his feelings don't influence him. Okay. I find Tornaga to be exceptionally empathetic. Like, you have to be to understand what motivates people. Yes.

And so he has an EQ that is far and away different than a Taiwan Lanister. Again, manipulative, like good game players, but are coming to it from a different space. I think what makes Toranauga unique in this sort of storytelling is that he can be manipulative while no one else believes that he's manipulative. Or they see him as someone who's clever and has good strategies and knows how to get what he wants, like knows how to get what he wants, but they don't believe themselves to be part of that game. The tiger certainly wouldn't eat my face. No, exactly. Exactly so. And I think only in these last couple episodes have some of the core characters become a little wiser to that and have kind of chafed against it, right?

Yabushige's primary objection in this episode when he's sort of dressing down Mariko is, let me know what the plan is. Yeah. He just wants to be in the loop. And it's such a powerful thing to feel like, oh, I'm one of the very few people who know what Tornag is up to. And she's like, pal, you're not that kind of falcon. You're not. I'm sorry. That's not your job.

That's not for you. All right. Did you laugh out loud? When John Blackthorne's like, if you won't live for God, live for me. She's like, no. Just the most pitiable handhold. Yeah. My guy.

That's so cute. This is a huge change for the book where Mariko, a lot of the moves that she makes, she's like, it's for you as much as it is for Toron. Nagas. She's head over heels in love with him. This is a massive adaptive change where like Mariko and Blacklorn share something like very important in this episode. I'm not just talking about the pillowing. But like there is a sense of connection and gratitude. And we'll talk about all of that. But Mariko has spent one night with this guy. She is like drawn to him. She's interested in him. But she's not like, I'm going to fuck up my life for you. That's not how she's been positioned. I like Blackthorn fine, but why would you? Why would you? Why would you?

And I think honestly, the story of Shogun, as we know it so far, makes more sense to me that way. As not a love story, but a story of intrigue and a story of a blossoming relationship. And there's a connection between them that is important to both of those characters and to the broader story. But it's not their love that is driving all the action. And in particular, I think the danger you get into with that is when characters are in love, it gives authors license to make them do really dumb things all the time. And I don't ever get the sense that Mariko is doing something dumb. She's doing something that Blackthorn may not understand until very late in the game.

Right. But it makes sense to her and I think it makes sense to us. I love that. One thing I will say for your guy, Abyshe, I'll come to your team on this. When he gets the message that, like, Ashito wants him to do a favor and he's like, what the fuck now? The groan he admits. Just like, this is going to be bad. I can tell.

He's the best guttural performer on this show. The groans, the grunts. Yeah. Just nails it every time. I am not a religious person, but I found that Alvito's Mass for Mariko was like just absolutely exquisitely beautiful. She says, let's drink chaw from an empty cup for all the years that we've known each other and the little time that is left. This idea of conflict inside the human heart for her. And the fact that we hear Alvito sort of singing this mass over.

images of the Sepu ceremony being laid out. And I think it's a tycho drum, the drum that is played for her a little later on. It's this blending of the dual heart. It's the Catholic side. It's the Portuguese influence. But it's also this very Japanese ceremony, this very Japanese instrument, all sort of like blending together. And I kind of call it to action in that moment, too. But while all that's happening, our guy John Blackthorne is drawing a line in the rocks, a real the air move on his part. What is your interpretation of this that you promised us?

This was so striking. And it's so clear that this is something we should be paying attention to. We come back to this visual during this montage a couple of different times. Him drawing a line in the garden kind of counter to the natural order of the way everything is laid out.

I took this as, you know, we talked about this being a different Blackthorn than we saw earlier in this season. He's been quieter. He's been restrained when He's told to be restrained. He's been told by Mariko specifically, do not interfere with my business here. Right.

Like, you are supposed to stand on the sidelines and let me do this. I took this as like his little act of rebellion, kind of, his screaming into a pillow moment, where he knows that he cannot do the thing he wants to do, which is save Mariko's life in particular. She has told him, you cannot do that. And so he's doing kind of like the one thing that he can do while still being respectful of the situation that he's been put into

and being respectful of her station and her agency. That's kind of how I read it, but I'm very curious what you took away from it. I think that's a beautiful interpretation. I am prone to agree. I do think the visual is also meant to invoke the opening credits when we watch his ship plow through the careful lines of the garden. So it's sort of like, am I going to be this guy,

this guy who just sort of blunders through and plows through, or am I going to go with the flow of this landscape, which is completely counter to my understanding of how this world is supposed to work. Great moment. Let's talk about John Blackthorne's extremely romantic gesture of I Will Behead You. Don't worry.

I loved this moment. This in the book, Kiyamu doesn't show up as he doesn't in the show, and she's like, Yabushige, will you do this? And he's like, sure, no problem. That doesn't mean anything to us. This is so much better. This means so much better.

To us. This is an incredible adaptive choice for him to be like, I'll be the one, her gratitude, her understanding of what it means for him to, you know, this is not how he thinks that he's doing this so much for her. Such a selfless act. It's going to bring him so much pain to do this, but comfort for her. It's the first time he's really grasped what she needs in a moment. Yeah. And the fact that he's able to deliver it, like, it's such a hugely significant moment in their relationship. I am yet again shocked. to find out that that does not happen in the book. Hell is no place I haven't already known.

A classic strong double nag from our guy, John Blackthorne, let it from your mind. I love that line. She gives him the rosary, which feels so significant. We get this like Deos X. Ishido comes in because he has his whole plan. But I want to go back to the rosary. The way she takes Blackthorne's hand. Big episode for hand holding. A lot of handholding, really mirroring to me the way that she takes the cross from El Vito at the beginning of the episode, this sort of like lifeline.

And the way that Anaswai talked about this on the official podcast about the El Vito moment is like it could have been anything in that moment. It happened to be faith. It happened to be the church. But if anything had reached out to her in that like desperate, desolate, bleak moment in her life, you know, if Buntaro had decided to be kind in that moment. Maybe like, you know, that would have been the moment for her, but it was Elvito there with the rosary. So in this moment, it's John holding out a hand. And when Elvito gave her the rosary, right, he says, for when you have no words and you just need something to hold on to. And this becomes John for her in this night when he comes into her room later, they don't say anything.

No. They just hold on to each other and do other things. But, you know, holding is part of it. Plenty of other things. And especially in contrast to their previous Pillowing encounter, which is veiled under this pretense, under this plausible deniability. These are two people who see each other in a completely different way

and in a way that doesn't need explanation. Anything else you want to say before we get to the, like, this is Yabushige's big betrayal moment, you're still on this guy's team. I'm not defending all his actions. I'm saying he's a good character. I think you're like, I too would let the Shinobi assassins into the castle.

Anything else you want to say? This is like sort of our spoiler moment where we're going to talk about the end of the episode. I think we can plow on ahead. Okay, like a line through the furrows of rocks in the garden. Here we go.

If you don't want to know what the creators themselves have said about this final moment, now is your time to bail out. We'll see you next time. But here we go. So the Shinobis assassins come in. Well, Yabushige does a great,

like, what's that over there? Stab a guy in the back. maneuver. And Yamashu's like whole thing where he's like throws down the jar later and is like, oh! So good. He's also really cracked the code, which is a great time to stab someone is when they're bowing to you. Who knew? So, Marik, you know, they're, I really love this moment.

It's such a frustrating moment in the book because Blackthorn thinks the assassins are there for him. And Mariko keeps saying, they're here for me, they're here for me, they're here for me. and he doesn't believe her until like the very end and it's so annoying. And the fact that she's just like, they're here for me. He's like, got it. No prob. Something I want to clarify that Rob and I were sort of sussing up before we started recording is the plan here is to kidnap her, not to kill her, but to take her and hold her.

Because killing Mariko is bad for Osaka. If she dies while she's there. Ochiba outlines that explicitly. Said that with her words. And we can also infer it from the way that the show. Shinobi don't kill, select other people. Yes. In particular, like, Lady Kiri, for example.

Like, they're walking past Lady Kiri. They're walking past the newborn baby. Right. They're omitting certain people and murdering everybody else who were told are basically other hostages, like other guests of other lords primarily are in this house, filling space with them. And those people are just killed in their sleep. Right.

So they're supposed to take her and hold her, but not kill her. That was not the plan. She says, let it come. to John Blackthorne as he's desperately trying to do anything he can to stop this. Well, she also has a fork in the road moment as it relates to the potential capture,

which is they basically have a choice. Do we make a break for it and try to go for the gate? Or do we try to hole ourselves up and barricade ourselves in this room with like the one solid door we can get to? And she says specifically, I am not going for the gate.

I don't want to risk being captured. She will not be captured. I will not be captured. There are two outcomes here, I am free or I am dead. Yes. And she picks the one that is going to put her in a locked room, and she's going to see what comes of that. What happens here? And her final words are the exact same as they are in the book, literally the same.

She puts herself in front of the door, and it blows up, and Mariko is dead. Yeah. This is her death. This is her death episode. This is what all the creatives have said on the official podcast. So she's dead. The mystery that will let be the cliffhanger is what happens to everyone else in the room. Yeah. We don't know. But Mariko, this is her. her final stand. And she takes her final stand with her father's name. Right. In this moment, declaring in front of the door, like she uses her father's last name and not Buntaro's family

name. Right. Very important kind of signifier of, again, the fact that as Oceba lays out, she wanted to, in her father's name, become a martyr. That was kind of her ultimate plan and her ultimate framing and what she wanted out of this, her own attempt to scratch Fates' eyes out. Like, this is how she wanted to reclaim her destiny. Take her vengeance. this is where we want to come back to the real world inspiration. So that idea, the flower falling poem, that was her death poem. That was her final poem that she wrote that she left behind. Do you think we'll get that read at some point in the finale, I wonder?

No, I don't know. Because she does write it and she hands it off. But I don't know what happens with that paper per se. Okay. Rob, have you written a death poem? Not yet. I'm still working on and fine-tuning. All right.

The edits are tough. Yeah. You know? But you only have five lines, so it's tough. So, Hosecao Gracia, if you want to learn more about her life, I mean, there's a Wikipedia entry. It's very slim. So I would recommend this website, miso hitomoji.com.

They did a podcast slash big article in February of last year, 2023 that I found really illuminating that goes in detail through this woman's life. I loved this quote from the Jesuits. priest, Jesuit, there's just like a lot of information about her. She was a huge figure, you know, and there's a lot that she and Mariko share in common, including an abusive husband. And this real life woman, there's a story in there about how she, she had an abusive husband and she would wear the bludied, the kimono that he bloodied and wouldn't change it,

walk around in it. So everyone would see that he was abusing her until he, like, begged her and apologized and take it off and change it and stuff like that. That's incredible. That move. A Catholic woman who was also Japanese, like all of this, who grappled with the idea of Sepaku and what it would mean for her immortal soul. So when it came down to it, push come to shove, she's threatened to be captured,

along with these other hostages that the real-life comp for Ashito is rounding up the hostages, grabs her, goes to grab her, and her, basically her vassal kills her, kills himself, and then burns down the house that they're in. So it's similar but different from what we get here, but the impact is the same that it is the turning point of everything, this sort of act of political defiance, protest, and effective suicide.

I did want to read this one quote from this article that is from the Jesuits. So there's a lot of things that the Jesuits wrote about her. There's a lot of things that, like, there's a lot of firsthand accounts from, like, women in the court who knew her. She's just this sort of like iconic Titanic figure. The Jesuits wrote, quote, the daughter-in-law, meaning her, the daughter-in-law superseded and excelled everyone, for she was a monster in delicate matters of ingenuities and natural knowledge in such a

manner that she could already be a mistress of her master. I just love that description of her. And so this is it. This is it for Mariko. The question we want to like maybe wrap up with, we're almost done here is like, what did Mariko know and when did she know it? As far as what? I'll just say this. In the book, she knows way earlier that she's headed to her death. Though she doesn't tell the audience, but you get context clues. Basically, she has like this sexual rumspringer with John all the way to Edo.

They're just like having sex in every single inn because it takes a long time to get from Ajuro to Edo. It's like a blink of an eye on the show, but it's a long road. And it's just her and Blackthorn and, like, Kiku and the madam. And they're just, like, having sex in every single in along the way. And he keeps saying, I'm in love. We're in love forever. And she's like, no, we don't have much time. Yeah.

And you as the reader are thinking, oh, because soon they're going to be reunited with Buntaro or whatever. But Mariko's thinking, because I'm going to die soon. Right. She knows for a long time that this is her fate. she comes to Osaka just like knowing that this is what is going to happen to her. My sense of the Mariko in the show is that it's only when Toranooga told her this in literally the last week's episode that she's like, okay, this is the plan. Let's do it. I would say that's my read on it too.

And it's clear that in being pointed in the direction of Osaka, that is probably what her fate is going to be. One way or the other, she doesn't know the how or the why. And that's some of the terror of this episode, I think, for her, especially that moment where she thinks she might actually have to do the act herself and what that would mean for her. And so she's still figuring out how to best maneuver this. But again, it's about finding purpose in that death. And in this, an act of protest, like reclaiming her father's name

and fulfilling the sort of martyrdom that she has long wanted, but also creating a dynamic within the castle and with, especially around Ashito, like this is an unacceptable outcome for lots of different people, the fact that Marrako would die in this way. Right. This is not an event that's going to be swept under the rug easily. It's going to have huge ripple effects in this political community. Yes. Anything else you want to say about this episode, this tremendous episode of television?

I'm just very glad that even if it's from the official podcast, that we don't have to do the no body, no crime. Is Mariko really dead? Yeah. What do you make of them cutting to black without us knowing one way or another for sure? if we're watching it home. I just think it's a good idea, narratively speaking, to end on an explosion.

It makes sense why they would do it. I don't think we have to entertain, even without that clarity. She's standing in front of a door that explodes. If the explosion didn't kill her, the large wooden splinters of the door and shrapnel probably would. So I normally am an adherent

to what I call the golden eye thesis, which is if you see an explosion, that doesn't necessarily mean anybody died. Like there's always a back door, there's a hatch. Yeah. There's a way to get out. Even if something explodes, I don't see.

There was not going to be a way out for Morocco here. The question is, what remains of anyone else in that room? That does it for episode nine, way back for the finale. Somebody if they've teased Fred Toya in the official podcast, director of the finale, said, the finale is maybe not what you expect. To me, that signaled more like, this is the big climax and then episode 10 is the aftermath. I'm always down for that. might be just like quieter, you know, we've done the big explosion. Now what?

I love the aftermath. I love the contemplative finale. I love the, you know, is that Buffy season four like dream scenario of wandering through consciousness? The cheese man's going to come. All right. Sounds great. I'm looking out for the cheese man. All right. But it is, look, it's, it's jarring to say goodbye to Mariko in this fashion. But it's going to be jarring to say goodbye to all these characters in a week. The fact that this is all winding down is pretty surprised. at this point, given how important the shape of this story has felt in dissecting it with you on this pod. The fact that people are emailing us like Sean who aren't even watching this show and are keeping up with it. There's something here that's resonating with lots of people. I think in a way that

is true to the appeal of the original book, which is obviously a sensation in the mini-series, which was a sensation. But there's something here that's different. And I think it is in the adaptation. I think this is something really special. I agree. Can't wait to talk about the finale. Thank you, Rob Mahoney. Thank you. Thanks to everyone who emailed us, top knots and man buns at email.com. We did hear from a lot of people who are like catching up. Like, they're responding to old episodes.

Which makes sense. So I think a lot of people are just like hopping on the bandwagon. But this is a huge show no matter how you slice it. Yeah. So if you're listening to this podcast in like 2028. Yeah. You can still email us. I don't know if we're going to check it, but we see you into the future.

We did get a Fargo email. Oh, no, a true detective email. Did you see that I afforded that to you? I did. About the seal watch. Okay, it's still active. All of our emails are still active. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely for his work on this episode.

Thank you, Kai Grady, for his work on this episode. We'll be back next week, and we'll see you then. Bye.