The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Finale Recap

Episode Date: April 23, 2024

Jo and Rob return to break down the ‘Shogun’ finale. They discuss the surprising restraint throughout the final episode, their feelings about the show as a whole, and the revelation behind Toranaga’s true intentions. Along the way, they talk about the placement of Blackthorne’s seppuku moment and the beautiful subtlety of Ochiba’s poetry. Later, they unpack the ways in which the television adaptation surpassed the original work. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

filling our group chats and 4U pages. And we want to talk about them with you. Our new show, We're Obsessed, is for all the things we're loving, buying, watching, listening to, and spiraling over right now. Follow the ringer dish feed on Spotify to listen to We're Obsessed every Friday. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney. This is our Shogun finale recap episode. Rob, we've come to the end of the road in the forest. Will one of us die? Who's to say? Did our scheme work out, do you think? As we're moving all the pieces around the board, did we win? Are we the players or are we being played?

That's the. question. Did Torinaga want us to be doing this podcast? The whole time? That's what I'm saying. See, now we're asking the right questions. It took us a while, but we got there. We got there. All right. Episode 10, A Dream of a Dream, written by Emily Ishida and Maine Huang and directed by Fred Toy, who directed episode nine, as well as Brooke to the Fist, Nape Helfthense, like as we said, like a real director MVP of the season. We will have an interview with Emily and Megan and some other people for an interview special that we're putting up tomorrow. So today is Tuesday. The finale comes out. Wednesday we'll have a sort of Shogun wrap-up interview special. So we'll have some

insights from the people who wrote nine and ten sort of to take us through some of the finer points of the conclusion of this season. Rob will not be on that podcast, but he will be spiritually on that podcast. And we will think of him every time we talk about his guy, Yabushige. How are you feeling? Number one, Yavishige fan. Are you mourning? I am morning, but he went out in style, wrote his own death poem, which I thought was fantastic.

A really good poem. And I got to say, Yavishige was right about most things. He really gets to call out Tornaga in the end in a way that no other character does, and I'm here for that. You hit us on the group chat earlier with the hashtag Yavishika was right.

And I've been thinking about it ever since. And insightful, inside the secret heart of Tornaga, sure, right to let those people into the castle in episode nine? Are you still defending that move? I think it depends on if you see Toranauga as a good guy or not, or even as a neutral guy. But the curtain drops, and I think Toranauga reveals himself. And Yabushige is the only one there to say,

hey, man, this was kind of some bullshit. Here's the question I want everyone to ponder as we roll through this episode in terms of Toranauga, good guy, question mark. It is revealed in this episode that Toranauga is responsible for burning John's ship. Sure, fine. And in order to keep up the ruse, he is beheading people in the village and putting their heads on spikes in order to cover his own tracks. That's just the thing that Toranaug is doing in this episode. And to play some kind of like trick test on Blackthorn effectively.

It's basically a one-man show for Blackthorn to test him. And it just so happens to require many murders. Yeah, the set deck is just heads on spikes. All right, we still want to hear from you if you still have thoughts, top knots and manbuns at gmail.com. We still get emails coming in from various email accounts. So don't forget us. We'll still be here.

Episode 10, A Dream of a Dream, the episode title here, um, in the show refers back to when the Tyco is done. at the beginning of episode two, that flashback. He says, so strange to this life, just a dream of a dream. So that's, we're quoting the Tyco from episode two. It's pretty almost identical to an important quote in the book. A dream within a dream is what they say in the book. And I think they only tweaked it because that's in the name of a famous Edgar Allan Poe poem.

And maybe they're like, James, you're knocking off Poe. Let's just do something slightly different. But this is all part of, at the time, the end of the book Tornaaga, in the show he's talking to Yabushige. In the book, it's an inner monologue where he's like, and do you want to know all my plans? Here they are. And what he says is, I will continue to wait patiently. And one day, those two usurpers inside Osaka Castle will make a mistake. They will be gone. And somehow Osaka Castle will be just another dream within a dream. And the real prize of the great game that began as soon as I could think, which became possible

the moment the Tyco died, the real prize will be won. the shogunate. That's what I fought for and planned for all my life. I alone and heir to the realm, I'll be shogun, and I've started a dynasty. Villain monologue or hero monologue? I mean, how do you feel rough? I think it's quite clear which one it is. Tough look for the Toranaaga fans. I think, I mean, that's book Toranauga. I think show Toranauga. I mean, there's some major tweaks they made to make show Toranauga sort of much more sympathizing. at the end of all of this, heads on spikes, notwithstanding.

Yeah, I would push back a little bit on that, and I think we can get to it when we get to it, but he is an incredible character, incredibly complex, incredibly human. I don't know that this end-game Torinaga is terribly sympathetic to me. I don't know that I mean he's sympathetic.

I suppose I mean his, they've rounded off some of the edges on his moves, right? Because, like, I'll just skip ahead and say, this. The big change they made that I think he sacrifices Nagakato, Hiramatsu, and Mariko, right? And again,

as we've mentioned, like, Nagakato, he's got other sons, so no problem, but Nagakato and Hiramatsu are personal losses for him in addition to Mariko, right? Whereas in the book, it's just Mariko is like the main player lost in this game. But we have to say, him

parroting the I have other sons line in this episode, brutal stuff. It's a tough look. But he says at the end of this episode that, like, in his dream of the battle, right? Yeah. That they will, he says in the show, the regents will turn on him before a single sword is drawn. And then he says, A Nation Without Wars and Era of Peace. And we got an emofermalist, or Monica, about the idea of the trolley problem.

And for those of you who don't know that or haven't watched The Good Place, like, the idea of the trolley problem is, like, basically would you sacrifice one person if it saved all these other people, right? Yeah. And so Torunaga is saying, in saying this is kind of saying Mariko and Nagakato and Hiramatsu had to died, but all these people will live in my kingdom of peace. But also all the dudes who got stabbed guarding, you know, taking Mariko to the gate, all the people he's now beheading, all the people who died in the earthquake, like all the people who have died along the way, yes.

The real battle of Sakigahara, which, you know, the real, historical counterpart where Toranauga fought in. I was looking it up, had between 12,000 and 42,000, that's a big range, but between 12,000 or 42,000 people died in that battle. Yeah. So this dream of a battle that is over before a single sword is drawn is like, maybe we can chalk it up to like Toranauga's fantasy of an outcome, but like this is neither historically what happened, uh, nor in the book what happened. And so I think that, this idea of a Toranauga who's like, I've done this to secure peace, my new empire, shout out Kai Grady, Revenge of the Sith fan.

That feels such an intentional move to at least give him a justification that is not about his own bid for power or glory. Do you know what I mean? I do. But even the version of the story he tells or that he dreams up, it's not that the battle comes and goes without anyone drawing a sword. It's that all the other regents are maybe not involved. or they split off,

but there still has to be a battle between Ishido's forces and Toranaagas forces. Like, there's still going to be a lot of bloodshed. You're right. The regions will turn in him before a single sword

is drawn does not promise that no one dies in this, but I think it's like his whole A Nation Without Wars, an air of great peace. And we should say... Oh, that's just straight fascist core.

We like, let's put it, call it what it is. Okay. Can I... Okay. I promise this is the last section from the book Shogun as written by James The Vell

that I am ever going to read on this podcast. but I need you to know about this post script. This book ends suddenly. Okay. Because, like, Mariko has died. Every, you know, we're back in the village, everything. While twirling his mustache, Tornaga, is giving his little, like, interior monologue about, like, all the moves he made

and all the moves he wants to make in the future. And then it's just sort of over. The book is just sort of over. And then there's this PS and italics. Yeah. Is it about trade routes? It's not, unfortunately. Oh, it's not about sex toys either.

Bummer. It says that year at dawn on the 21st day of the 10th month, the month without gods, the main armies clashed. It was in the mountains near Saga Gahara, astride the North Road, the weather foul, fog, and sleep. By late afternoon, Torinaga had won the battle, and the slaughter began, 40,000 heads were taken. Three days later, this is the best part,

three days later, Ashita was captured alive, and Torana Gennuely reminded him of the prophecy and sent him in chains to Osaka for public viewing, ordering the edit to plant the general Lord Ashito's feet firm in the earth with only his head outside the earth, and to invite Fastersby to saw at the most famous neck in the realm with a bamboo saw. Ashto lingered three days and died very old. And that's how the book Shogun ends. Okay, yeah, Toranauga has been softened up a little bit. Yeah. He's been softened up. He's not putting Ashido in the ground. It's like, hey, everyone have a whack.

Have a little saw at the neck. You died three days later? Good Lord. They were hacking away at him for three days. All right. So, Tornaug, we'll come back to Tornaug in the ending. Let's go back to the beginning. And Nassius, how do you feel about this episode

and about sort of the series as a whole, Rob Mahoney? I really love a lot about this finale. In particular, I think it does something it's very hard to do in finale episodes, which is it shows an incredible amount of restraint in what it shows, the way it reveals information and how it's kind of guiding us

to our ultimate end point here. So I think it's challenging, it's fascinating in terms of the past that the characters are taking, it's emotional. I don't know what more I would want of a finale than those things. It's hard to end things,

and I think the season ended very well. How did you ultimately feel about it? I cried, Rob. I cried when Fuji and John went out in the sea and a boat and... What a scene. Put their loved ones in the water together forever.

Thank God. We came back to Adjiro because how else were we going to see Fuji again? Oh my God. When she first shows up again, I was just like, at last. Here you are. I cried then. There's another moment I cried. They were all Fuji-based.

The other moment I cried, this is more of a like, not tears streaming down my face, but sort of like watery eyes, is when he and Fuji were sitting out, looking at the garden, and they both look over to where Mariko was sitting, like last time they were there. Empty chairs and empty tables, kinds of vibes out here. Wow, I'll leave his reference. Who could ask for anything more? And then, so, you know, you love the finale,

or who could ask for a better finale, perhaps, series as a whole. This is it. This is Shogun. We're done. How do you feel? I love it. I mean, I'm, again, a lot to admire in terms of the craft,

in terms of the production. Good God, the acting, just as stacked from top to bottom as you're going to get. And there's some performances in particular, I think we should call out this week. But the fact that they didn't pull punches with so many of these characters, They didn't try to make Yabushige anything that he's not. They didn't try to make Torinaga anything that he's not. And they let these characters be complicated. They let them make weird and punishing

and sometimes violent decisions in service of an interesting story without trying to pull the wool over our eyes at any point. And I think in particular, the fact that there are so many twists and turns, but I don't know how you felt, I never felt manipulated or cheated in a storytelling way. Like all of those twists felt earned.

Even starting with in this episode, the kind of dream, vision, flash forward we get of Blackthorn's future, I thought was deployed in a really smart way and in a way that diverts our attention and reframes the whole episode. It's like by starting that way, even if it turns out to just be a dream, you take, like you put a pin in the idea of, oh, Blackthorn's going to die, right? So then we're not, we're not waiting for him to die. We're not waiting for him to meet some violent end. We're just trying to see like where does this go? And the fact that it ultimately turns out to be a dream doesn't feel like I'm getting the rug pulled

that from under me. It just feels like the emotional stakes of a few key moments are shifting dramatically in a way that's narratively interesting. This was an element that I was having I agree with you about the impact. I was having a little trouble tracking it myself.

Perhaps I don't know if I was distracted while I watched this as the first time, but you're tracking the crucifix throughout the episode and once the crucifix goes in the water then you're like, okay, for sure this is a dream. Toranooga says in this episode and it's a refrain repeated so often in the book that it's almost like you'll never

leave harlan alive like john blackthorn's never leaving japan everyone says it in the book and that's just you know brother you know father elvito's like hmm he looks like someone who's never going to leave japan you know and so he's just like stuck there forever so i was just sort of like what are we watching here what is happening yeah how dramatic is this changed and then yeah for it to be a dream sequence is fascinating and i like i like what you have to say about how it sort of like take some out, but then sort of reintroduces attention once we understand a poignancy of like, I guess as well, though his grandchildren seem pretty shitty. So is this really a dream worth hanging on to? They just seem like normal kids poking around, picking up stray swords.

Is it true what Savage gave this to you? Isn't that what they say? You know, they are European. But that's the thing. I think it was pretty clear over the course this season that there was no going back for him, right? He's been so divorced from the culture that he knew and he's so kind of of appalled by the people who are still on this continent from it. I never really had the thought that he would go back, but there was a thought that maybe he would just get on his ship at the end of this and go sailing off into the distance, right? That maybe that kind of outcome was in play for him

until you see the ship at the bottom of the cove. How'd you feel about that? We got so many moments where Blackthorns like, where's my ship, where's my ship, got to get my ship, get my ship. I'm going to go fight a naval battle for you. And then it ends up, yeah, sunk in the cove. How did you feel? We love a giant wooden red herring.

I'm glad for the anti-climax of never getting the black ship versus Blackthorns canons. Honestly, the only time the cannon's really being fired in tests and then at chosen. That was it. Yabushige is a sort of standard for people at home where he's like, when's Crimson Sky happening? When's it happening? It's episode 10. Are we going to do it? And Tornaga being like, that was last week, guy.

It was Mariko. That was Crimson guy. Didn't you see the episode title? We did it. Okay. your guy Yabushige wakes Blackthorn up in the immediate afternoon of the explosion.

The baby's okay. Thank God. Everyone else is okay. And then John does this thing where he performs sort of like last rites for Mariko. And later when he's talking to Alvito, he's like, I wasn't praying to her God. I wasn't praying to my God.

I was just praying to like, you know, God in general, whatever that means. But it is still him doing sort of similar to when he says that he will second her. and the sepuku scene in episode 9, it's still him doing something that he knows means a tremendous amount

to her, even though it doesn't mean a tremendous amount to him. It means something to him in a way, right? I think there is a, like, there's a strict panic response from him, of almost like, what do I do in this moment? And I think the fact that he is clinging for that in the same way that he's clinging to her rosary later in this episode.

Like, he's trying to find meaning from the moment Mariko dies. And he thinks it's going to be his ship, and then his ship is destroyed. and then he's spiraling out in all kinds of directions trying to figure out like, what am I supposed to do now? And if anything, that's kind of what Toranaaga's plot for him ultimately is. It's like if I, now that Mariko is gone,

if I strip you down to nothing, what are you going to do? What do you have left and what is important to you? Will you amuse me? Yes. That would be my preference. Apparently that's criteria A. Criterion A. I apologize. Wow.

if you have just sent a loyal vassal to her death in Osaka and you recently put your oldest, bestest friend, and your son in the ground. Yep, yep. Is it solo camping trip time? Like, how are you feeling, Rob? Is that the move? What else is there to do? You know, some marshmallows over an open fire, nice seaside location.

Take a look at your falcon. I think about things. This to me strikes me as a scene that is a lot about the cost of his victory, this solitude, because I was thinking about it, like the, how many people have we seen Torunaga have one-on-one conversations with? And it is essentially Nagakato, Hiramatsu, and Maniko. Like, there's really, you know, the Tyco, I guess, but he's also dead. So, like, all the people that he would have these, like, one-on-one conversations with,

are dead and gone. Again, empty chairs and empty tables, empty campsites. This is, you know, for his vision of a shogunate, this is what his future looks like. You know, he does, Kiri does show up

and they still have their tremendous energy together. But I feel like this is supposed to tell us like he is sacrificed, what he is sacrificed to get here. I felt that. way even more after you get through this episode and you get the Blackthorn and Fuji scene on the boat where her family's remains are put into the sea and this idea of like these people will always be with you this way. And so if you take Tornaga's solitude and there's lots of moments where

he's just staring out at the ocean, staring out into the void, the gang's all here in a way, right? Like there is a connection between him and all these people who have died for his cause. And I think he, to be clear, he's very sensitive to that. I think he is mourning those losses, especially Mariko's, in light of the way she went out and how much her death meant to everything he's trying to accomplish. I don't think those things are lost on him. I just think he's willing to let lots of people die to get what he wants. Yeah.

Sometimes heads got to go on spikes. You're right that once Mariko is dead, Blackthorne is grasping for meaning all over the place. It feels like he's also grasping for connection because we spent so much of this season with John and Mariko in their little, like, bubble of. their language bubble of just the two of them in their world. Stripped of that, he is making connections with Alito, with Buntaro.

He would love for Fuji to stay, but Fuji's like, I don't have to do what you say anymore, am I, he orders her. Please, God, do not leave me alone. Don't leave me alone. You know, and then you see him sort of, like, making a community out of the village

as they're all hoisting his soon-to-be-burned again ship out of the water. So that is something like John might be stuck forever in Japan, but I don't think he's going to be lonely there. Whereas I

think Torinaga is going to be lonely at the top of this heap that he's built for himself, you know? By design, right? How can you be Shogun without being lonely? It is an inherently lonely position that kind of power and it's what he wants to wield and he has all kinds of grand designs for what that means.

and the kind of peace it would bring, and maybe some of that's true. But he has isolated himself. There's no question about that. And Blackthorn, by comparison, I think there's a big question as to what he actually knows at the end of this episode in terms of the ways he's being manipulated and the ways he's being used.

But he does seem to have found some kind of purpose, right, in this community, in the community that he tried to kill himself to protect. Do you want to talk about that Sepulco moment, being moved up into this finale here? When we talked to Justin Rachel midseason, Justin sort of alluded to the fact that they would return to this scene, which book readers are like, where's this up O'Cousy? That they would return to it later.

What do you think of its placement here? I mean, I can't speak to the contrast, but as far as how it works here, I do think it does. I do think it plays in this moment, especially when we think of Blackthorn as someone who is untethered. This isn't something he would do if Mariko was alive necessarily. This isn't something, maybe it's not something he would do if he still had his ship, but as a last thing he can cling to,

and especially foregrounding it with him going to sit quietly in the garden, right? And like dwelling on Ujuro and like the idea of his whole story and his death and what that had meant and this idea of a community and what is good for the broadest amount of people here and how do you protect people and how do you serve the people around you. And I think there's clarity in that. And there's certainly clarity in the fact that when he does go to meet with Torinaga, his Japanese is pretty broken, but the one thing he has really articulated how to say

is his declaration of protest in Sepaku, right? Like, this is what he came here to do. It's not he came and he heard details and he decided this was what he needed to do. That was his mission. And in doing so, mirrors basically Mariko's declaration as she holds herself in front of the door in a way that feels incredibly poignant

and true to that character. And it's true of a lot of the deaths that we've seen over the course of the season and in this world where it's people who feel like they don't have something to live for, who are trying to find some purpose in death that they couldn't find in life. And he's trying to find that, even if he's flailing about. And if you go back to like the first, I believe the first moment of Sepaku that we get in this story, which is Yabashige, who's like, I would rather stab myself than like let the waves take me.

Yeah. Right. And so it has to do with like control. We talked about this a lot, I think, last week in terms of marks. Mariko, it's like the moments that she feels uncertain in death are the moments where she doesn't feel like she has control over it. And here, if I'm choosing the manner of my death, then there is purpose and intention to it, and therefore it means something. Yes. In terms of what Mariko's death means, the council scene where Ishido is talking to the other regents and, you know,

Kiama and Ono are like, this never should have happened. I mean, again, they just like sat their ass on those parapets and didn't really help her. But like after the fact, they're like, oh dear, oh my. Kiama offered to call a meeting. He's like, I will urgently call a meeting. I have blocked off 20 minutes on my schedule on my Google calendar. What I love about this is Ishido scrambling to blame Toronaga for what happened. And trying to cast Mariko as, you know, like, she's from this disgrace family.

She's a traitor, all this sort of so like that. And just, it's so fun to watch that scene and just keep your eye on Achiba, the whole scene. Even when she's in, like, soft focus behind him, keep your eye on her. And the way that she, you know, we've been paying attention to when she puts on her voice and when she drops and stuff like that, she has dropped most of the voice in this. It's like 25% on. And as in contrast to the other council scene where she's like, I could not possibly tell you how to live your life or how to rule your council, etc.

This is, you know, she just says Mariko will be generously honored. Full stop. That's it. And he, you know, there's an earthquake and he just still doesn't realize that he's fucked. Like he has no idea what he's done here with Mariko. When someone wins and someone loses, it's, you know, and we're not talking about like a feat of strength. If someone loses morally or if someone loses intellectually as Ishido loses to Toranauga here, it's just, you know, helpful to contrast them. And Toranauga as a student of behavior and humanity knew from, you know, miles and miles and miles away what Mariko meant to Achiba.

and Ishida with a front row seat to it, can't figure it out because he's not a student of human behavior. The woman he is obsessed with, the woman he intends to marry, doesn't even know who her friends are. I want to take this back to you, Rob, so you can ISO on your guy Yabashige in the garden, with the catfish.

Yeah, I think, okay, so there are so many characters who in the wake of Mariko's death are extremely shell-shocked. Blackthorn, literal ringing in the ears, Lady O'Chiab, as you said, devastated, shaken to her core. Yabushige engaging in the most unorthodox form of fishing I've ever seen, lunging into a pond, grabbing at fish that don't exist?

It's the don't exist part for me that really makes it unorthodox, because you can always bear paw at a river and perhaps catch a saber or a trout. I've seen lots of noodling videos on YouTube. Like, it's possible to just stick your digits under there, grab the catfish by the mouth, pull them out. They just so happen to not be there. Right. Extremely tough in PTSD corner for Yabushige,

who honestly never really recovers until the moment he's about to die. Goes through most of this episode, stripping off his clothes, trying to dive into various bodies of water. When John Blackthorne is the one saying, pull yourself together, man. Chill.

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urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit Zep You mentioned Yabashige's incredible death poem. I really, really loved it. My dead body, don't burn it, don't bury it, just leave it in a field, and with it fill the belly of some hungry dog. It's not just a great poem. It's how proud he is.

Impressive, right? I'm pretty, I'm pretty great, right? My skills have never been sharper, Joe. I've taught you everything you know. Anything that you do that's good in the future, it's because of me. I'll make sure that Toronaga knows that, etc., etc. I got much more emotional

when Oceba is talking to her son about Mari-kazana. Oh, my God. Yeah, okay. We need to talk about this scene. This is, I think, the most important scene in the episode, just full stop, maybe of the entire season,

to be honest with it. And it's very short. This whole scene top to bottom is, what, like 90 seconds, two minutes, maybe? Yeah, maybe. For one, it looks gorgeous. I just think the hazy golden hour sunsetting over the,

The Mountains vibe, Immaculate. And as you watch it, I think you're struck by that. You're struck by the poetry, as you said, which is incredibly beautiful. And I want to zero in on that specifically. But it's important in the way it frames what that poem and the writing of it is, which is a call and response between Mariko composing the opening lines of that poem and her friend finishing it after her death, basically by quoting her effectively. and signaling to anyone who is doing

a deep watch or a deep read of this show. This is where Ishido lost. The game is already done at this moment. And many people have not realized it yet, including Tornaga, has not quite gotten the letter of dispatch that will unfurl and unfurl and unfurl and unfurl. But he's hoping. He's certainly hoping.

Yeah. But this is the moment that we know in the context of this show that this thing is over. The leafless branch line starts it, as you mentioned, and this is the line that Mariko composed. Then she quotes Mariko, flowers are only flowers because they fall, which we talked a lot about last week.

But just in case you guys weren't listening to Episode 9, this is a quote from the real life death poem from the real Mariko. And then Ochiba adds, but thankfully the wind. And later, Toranauga will quote Mariko's poem about, you know, falling leaves and flowers, the bonfires they could make. This idea of like bonfires and wind and the spreading impact of Mariko's action. And when you're talking about delicate things like falling leaves or the petals of a flower and then just so Mariko falls like a like a blossom off the tree like a pet like a petal from a flower. The wind is carrying her and her impact through history.

and hundreds of years later, people in Northern California will be podcasting about a fictionalized version of her. That is this woman's impact forever. It's the most anyone could possibly hope for. I think you agree, Rob. To be podcasted about? Yeah, by us, obviously.

Us specifically, of course. But thankfully, the wind, it's just incredible. I love it. That one-two punch of flowers or only flowers because they fall, but thankfully the wind, as you said, speaks to the incredible sacrifice that Mariko has made and what the impact of it will be. But also, I think, just a deep understanding from Oceba, looking at her friend and her search

for purpose, right? Like, Mariko has been trying to find the meaning in death and the meaning in what her death and life could be. And the idea of finding it in flowers only being flowers because they fall, right? And the wind, not only as a mechanism to spread impact, but a mechanism to bring meaning, right? The wind is what is making the flower a flower. It is what is bringing it off the branch and causing it to be something that much more precious.

And so the idea that Ochiba is seeing her friend and understanding her life and her death in this moment, it floored me. Thankfully, the wind knocked me out. This is where, to me, like, Fumi Nakaito's performance in this scene, this is a show of powerhouse performances. I think hers might be my absolute favorite in the show. She's gotten to play a lot of different things,

very broad type of villainy, very subtle kind of, you know, wrestling with herself and trying to understand who she is as she oscillates between all these different versions, public and private. But the vulnerability and the subtlety in this scene and what it communicates is just ace storytelling and it's ace performance. And it does not work if she's not exactly this good in it. I think regretfully, I have to come to the dark side and your side and say, I would also say Tata Nobu Asano as Yabu Shige is like that Ochiwa and Yavishige and

of course, our girl Fuji are like the MVP's and subs. Like, Hiroika Sonata like, exquisite every single frame of this show. Cosma Jarvis I think doesn't quite, hasn't gotten enough credit just because like it's a big

performance. It's a big blundering performance around a lot of subtler performances. And so like, you know, I don't think we've often paused to like revere his acting. But I think his face when he leaves Osaka Harbor and knows that

Mariko has saved him, like here's one more gift from Mariko and her death. She has saved him. Absolutely broke my heart. And then also the silent exchange between Blackthorn and Toranauga at the very end.

The Sepulacus scene, as we already talked about, and then the exchange that they have at the end his sort of like grunt and nod at the end of this episode. Just a great grunter. Yeah. It's very brusk and, again,

a little broad in places, but I think intentionally so to sort of, you know, further highlight his alien nature and in this much more subtle society. And I just think it's been a really good performance that, you know, yes, Andy Grugman-Wall does a great.

great impression of, but, you know, and makes for wonderful memes as we saw this week, but I just don't want it to get lost in the praise of, in the rightful praise of all the other performances, too. Yeah, honestly, the dazed and, like, cackling Blackthorn in the woods with Father Alvito was, I think, some of my favorite stuff that Cosmo Jarvis has done all season. Trying to reckon with everything that's happening, including the fact that he's probably being brought out here to be murdered, but, oh, wait, no, he's not. And also trying to understand, like, I guess this is kind of what, Mark,

would want, like us being pals or at least friendly out here, there's so much happening with him in that scene that I appreciate. And I do think we should say, given the structure of this story and the ideas that it's playing with and the fact that it's an adapted work

that's trying to modernize certain elements of it, Cosmo Jarvis is in an incredibly delicate position. It's almost one of those kinds of performances where he has to be a certain degree unlikable. He has to be loud and brusque, as you said, in certain scenes and brash. You almost have to bounce off of him a bit for this story to work the way that they're trying to tell it. And that's not lost on me either.

That scene in the wood is so interesting to me because I think at the end of the day, the religious question is one I think I felt like I had my arms around fully in episode nine. And here in episode 10, it feels a little bit looser to me in terms of what this story wants to say about religion and faith. Blackthorne's journey to faith, perhaps, a kind of faith. And I suppose we could couch it this way. We could say, and this goes back to a thing that you and I said that a lot of our listeners didn't like when we called an exchange between Mariko and Blackthorn word salad. But essentially in that moment, they were, she was kind of trying to talk to him about thinking about something outside of himself, I think is what it boiled down to.

And that is essentially his journey in all of this is not like, I need to do this to clothe myself in glory and take that glory back home and, and, you know, be knighted and become, you know, a rich man about town who eventually has two shittier, whatever, grandsons, et cetera. But, like, I am a small speck in the history and the story of this island I have found myself on. And, you know, as you were saying in this epicose, and just sort of like putting other interests before his own. And that almost seems to be his sort of spiritual journey in the show. I would say so, yeah. I think the way this show treats religion, and specifically the Catholic Church, fascinating.

You know, they're set up really in the early stages of this season to be kind of secondary or tertiary villains, almost if you consider Blackthorn to be the hero of the story or even Toranauga to some extent. And so the fact that they are mostly just kind of sideline players, sometimes being sent around as Falcons, sometimes trying to butt in and have their own interests served, but primarily just kind of playing along the sidelines

and not terribly villainous, certainly exploitative, certainly out for their own gain in the way that you would expect. But I think to the extent that this season has anything definitive to say about religion, it comes from the exchange we get with Blackthorn and Miragi when he meets with Toranaaga. And Blackthorn is kind of fumbling over his words in Japanese, and Miragi asks him if he means to say hope, or if the word he's looking for is faith.

And the fact that Blackthorn responds, at this point, either one will do. That's where a lot of the characters in the story are coming from. Because for the non-Toranagas, they're all just leaves and flowers on the wind being blown about. And they're looking for some hope and some faith and some sense of purpose and meaning in what they do because these forces that are beyond their control

are dictating their lives. And so I think for whether you're talking about Mariko, who's looking for some kind of relief from her like eternal death walk up until the moment that she finally does, or Father Alvito, who has clearly seen some shit from a very young age, all these characters are trying to grab hold of something. And really, I think it's just a proxy for hope

for a lot of these characters. I want to mention, I've been holding back on this adaptive change because I wasn't sure if maybe they were going to introduce it here in the finale day. I'm so glad they didn't. But in the book, the reason that Oceba, a reason that Oceba hates Torinaga

is because she thinks that he knows what we suspect, but the book tells us is true, which is that the heir is not the Tico's son, that she found a farmer who kind of looked like him. I mean, there's a reason all these women couldn't get pregnant, and it wasn't the women's fault.

And so she's like, well, shit, I got to find an heir. So she finds like a farmer or peasant or something like that and has sex with him. And she believes that Torinaga knows, which, you know, is a very Circey Ned Stark sort of vibe. And then also once upon a time, like, had a crush on him, right? And feels rebuffed by him in that regard too. So, like, her scheming and her plotting and all of that is sort of borne out of fear, but also this sort of like base or more villainous

storyline. And so for the emphasis to be put on Mariko and a connection to like her childhood, her more innocent origins rather than this, you know, desperate move she made to produce an air, just speaks to the kind of story that the people who made this show are trying to tell.

Which is fundamentally, Shogun is a very human story no matter what. I think James Clavel, like sometimes, I don't know what your taste is for historical fiction. Mine is very low. And I think that's one of the reasons why I never read Shogun, because like I just sort of lumped it in with a lot of other historical fiction, which I often find quite dry. And James Clavel, in injecting so much humanity into the story, it makes it like a riproaring adventure and a page turner. But I think in turning that story into 10 episodes of Prestige Television, stripping. out trade roots and machinations with the church and all these other things to drill down on relationships, that is the true victory of this adaptation and why this show is hitting in a way that I was so worried it wouldn't. People are watching this show and loving it,

and that makes me really happy. And deemphasizing that kind of reveal of, you know, the heir's true parentage, I think also strikes me as a really smart adaptive choice in you're creating a show Shogun series in a world where the book has existed for 50 years. And so not only are you living in the shadow of that, you're in the shadow of every work that is iterated on Shogun. All the fantasy works like Game of Thrones that clearly are borrowing bits and pieces from it.

And so you're in conversation with those things as well. And the fact that if that had been a significant plot point, the heir's secret parentage and the reveal, like the Thrones comps would have been overwhelming, out of control and unwelcome, frankly. for the story that this is because it doesn't need it, right? Like, that's a detail, and it's something that I think savvy watchers of the show have been suspecting for a long time, even the people who are not familiar with the book at all. It was one of the first questions from the time you meet the air and the, like, the mysterious nature of how long it took all of these wives to try to get pregnant.

Like, it's conspicuous in a way that makes you ask questions. Right. But leaving it up in the air and unsaid versus being some big dramatic reveal in episode nine makes this show what it is. And that's a show that can live in a post-Shogun novel world. Anything else you want to say? We haven't talked about our guy, Omi, and his ultimate sort of betrayal question mark of his uncle,

but then also tender farewell to his uncle. Anything you want to say about Omi at the end of the day here? I think it's fitting for him. He's exactly the kind of person who would do this, who would get that letter and understand it both to mean a betrayal and also an opportunity for him. It feels very, very true to the Omi we know. Buntetto.

What do you want to say about our guy Buntetto? He's not our guy. We don't own it. We don't... We certainly do not. Don't associate us with that. No, no, no. It doesn't have a lot to do in this episode. I think the manner in which he shows up is somewhat significant.

And seeing him, like, after Marco's death is important. Like, we need to see him. Yeah. The fact that he is kind of in a very similar place to Blackthorn at the end of the day is a fun and interesting parallel. And these two people not only searching for meaning, in a world where like the thing that has been very important to them or the person in this case that's very important to them is gone, I think is a great place to leave these characters

and as like maybe not allies, but two people who can pull rope alongside one another, I think that's smart storytelling. I think that's a great place to leave Buntaro who is, you know, he is an artist and he is a sensitive person and he is someone who has all these skills from team making to poetry, as all samurai do, but like he isn't like an artist of war,

fundamentally too. And the idea that there's no big battle for him to participate in. And from the moment that was true, you know, he seemed as put off by anyone that Operation Crimson Sky was not going to be the big fire and brimstone version of Operation Crimson Sky. And so for him to reckon with his place in a world where that's not true, that's a good place to leave that character. It'll still be a battle, guys, don't worry. Thousands of people still die, I promise you. Okay, something that My Pell and yours, Van Leithen said on the Midnight Boys who have been sort of dipping their toe in the Shogun Rodgers, is he was like, they've been talking on and off about, like, should there be a season two of Shogun, either knowing or not knowing that this season is

adapting the full book. I don't know. I don't think we need the furthering adventures of Blackthorne and Toranauga, even though there is historical context that they could draw upon. I would go further into say I would really prefer not to get that. Absolutely. But James Clavel has written like six other books in the Asian Saga series. They take place at different times in history. We jump four. in time by like sometimes hundreds of years, is that something you would be interested in? Like, Shogun, colon, Tai Pan, or whatever.

Like, is that something that you think would be interesting? Definitely so. I would say as long as the creative minds behind this show feel confident about creating these sorts of characters, right? That's what made this season. And if you feel like you can start from scratch and create a lot, a huge, and I mean, it doesn't have to be as big a cast as this.

Like, you can tell a smaller story. you can reframe it to not be about, you know, the people in charge, and you could center it on a family, you could center on a single person. There's lots of ways to tell interesting stories during that period in history, but I think you have to feel confident that there's the bones of something real there.

And that's what's so great about the book is that you can pick and choose, you can cut parts out, you can omit huge sections of the book, and there's so much meat to work with that you end up with a show like this one. It's one of those moments where, like, you know, oftentimes, like, let's say with big little lies

on HBO where they did do the whole book in the first season. And then they were like, but everyone loved it so much. So let's just like make some shit up for season two. And then it wasn't nearly as good. It's like, this happens all the time with limited series where everyone says it's going to be one season. And then it's so popular. And then they're like, just kidding. We're going to come back.

I think with a story as well known as this, there's no chance. And creators as thoughtful as this, there's no chance that they would do something like that. And I am grateful for it. But I do think if I were FX and I were looking at the numbers on this show, I would consider optioning other Clovell books. Why not? I mean, because it's not just the storytelling which it is and the performances, which it is. But it's also just like the care in terms of costuming and mannerism and set deck and all of the sort of sense of prestige and luxury that came around the story of this show that I would love to spend more time in. I don't think anyone wants Toranaga's sitting by himself on his throne season of television.

Well, plus, that's where you get the benefit of this production without being tethered and bound to the story that you've already told. So you don't have to worry about John Blackthorn's ultimate fate. But as you're saying, all of the artists and artisans that went into making this show, all the processes you've hammered out from costuming, as you mentioned. But not only like the gesture experts you've brought in, like you have all the people. You know how to make it. What if you shift the time frame, shift the costuming and gestures slightly, shift the understanding of the world that we're in? But you have the same kind of points of contact. Anything else you want to say about the TV series Shogun, Rob?

I'm so glad we did this. We weren't 100% sure we were going to, and I'm so glad we did. Well, it became very clear from episode one that we should do this. Yes, yes. And I'm thrilled that it carried it through all the way to the end. This was such a satisfying season. I think we should impact Toranaaga a little bit more. Oh, yeah.

And ultimately, his relationship with Blackthorn, too. Like, am I reading this wrong that Toranauga's ultimate motivation for keeping Blackthorn around and thereby killing all these villagers, doing this whole ruse, all of this, is just because he basically sees him as a pet. Like, he makes him laugh. He's kind of useful. He wants to keep him around. And therefore, he's willing to exercise all this violence to make that happen.

I did write in my notes when I watched this the first time. having just sort of like freshly read the ending of the book, that it, that felt like an overcorrection. Because when, in the show, when Toranauga says, you know,

all the people that it took to get here, Lidie Mariko, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. In the book, he just says, Mariko and John,

like it took Mariko and it took John and it took me to get here, which is sort of a mirror of something that he says at the beginning of this season of television in earlier in the book, right? The destiny swirling around the three of them. I can understand in their ongoing effort to sort of shift the perspective of this story slightly away from John and not wanting to sort of make a great Japanese leader like Toranaaga say like, I really needed this white guy in order to make this happen. I can't speak. We, we, We didn't ask the writers about this, so I don't know the answer specifically.

But it almost struck me as like an overcorrection of Torinaga in the book talking about why Blackthorn matters. He does say the thing about making him laugh. Like that is in the book. But like, as the, seemingly the only reason that emerges here, like he's my, my toy, my play thing. That was one note that sort of felt a little off to me. I think that's the part of it that makes me look at Toranauga a little bit differently. We know he cares about Mariko's death and Hiramatsu's death and Nagakato's death. Those things are meaningful to him.

Blackthorne's life does not seem terribly meaningful to him. And I'm not even saying that it necessarily should be. But this scene and his kind of explanation of why he's kept Blackthorn alive for this long, and then that paired with the things he's actually telling to Blackthorn feel pretty callous. And I'm not even someone who finds Blackthorn himself terribly sympathetic. Okay, I said I was only going to read one more thing. I lied. I'm going to do this now. This is all part of what the interior monologue of Tornaug at the end. It sounds like he's talking to Blackthorn, but he's not. And he says, I saved your life, which you wanted even above your shift. 50 times or more I've had to consider giving your life away, but so far I've always managed to avoid it. I hope to continue to do that. Why? This is a day for truth. Now, the answer is because you make me laugh and I need a friend. And so that idea of, and I need a friend. And he says, and I dare not make friends among my own people or among the Portuguese,

yes, I will whisper down a well at noon, but only when I'm certain I'm alone that I need one friend. I don't know that that's the vibe that the finale gives off. The finale gives off Toranauga alone. No. You know, John accepting his fate as Toranauga's sort of like puppet. It felt like earlier in this episode, you see Toranauga take the blinders off. of his falcon and set it free. And at the end of this episode,

it feels like he puts the blinders on John Blackthorn and says, go build a boat. And when you build it, I'm going to burn it down again. And I'm going to keep you on this hamster wheel as long as I feel like. And it'll make me laugh. Yeah, I mean, sort of tracking the friendship between Joranaga and Blackthorn.

You get these sideposts, like you get the diving sequence, and you get the rescuing him from the earthquake sequence. So you can see a trajectory where, with love and respect to Hiramatsu, like there's a vacancy and perhaps John Blackthorn could fill it. But that's not

really been their vibe for several episodes now. They could not have gotten to that place, I don't think, in the finale. So I just, I think that, you know, instead we get the Yabushige conversation, which again is not in the book. And he's like,

why tell a dead man in the future and, you know, then he's dead. So again, he just has only, the rocks and the water to talk to in the future. Well, you know, hashtag Yabushige was right. To quote the poet himself, it's hypocrisy, our lives,

all this death and sacrifice from lesser men to ensure some victory in our names. My guy. He was on it. It took him a while to get there, but he was on it. Listen, this has been Shogun. I've had such a blast talking about it with you,

such a blast listening to reading all of our listener emails, such a joy to work with the great Kai Grady as our producer on this episode. We'll be back tomorrow, as you said, with interviews with Megan Wong, Emily Ishida, Rachel Kondo, and KM Puente to talk about episodes 9 and 10 and sort of get some added insights. Just a little behind the scenes, we have only conducted one of those interviews so far, and I found it incredibly insightful about the finale. I'm really excited to hear what Rachel and Kailen said about episode 9, because that was also a masterpiece. So that'll be up for you all to listen to on Wednesday. We'll be back at some point in the future. This is my promise to you.

I do have one parting thought for you and for all of our listeners, Joe. Fujisama. Yeah. Best. None. Let it be said. Let's not forget. All he needed was like an ever, best none ever.

That's all he was like missing. But yeah, he tried. He really did try. Oh, John. All right. We will see you at some point in the future. Thanks. Bye.

You know,