The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Shogun’ Series Premiere Recap

Episode Date: February 27, 2024

Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney reunite to break down the two-episode premiere of FX’s new series ‘Shogun.’ They open by unpacking the premise of the historical epic, its early adaptation choices, and its ties to the James Clavell novel of the same name. Next, they discuss the introduction of the show’s trio of main characters (John Blackthorne, Yoshii Toranaga, and Toda Mariko), their respective positions in the story so far, and the ensuing power struggle among the Council of Regents. Later, they close by highlighting their favorite production aspects, including the intricate set design and the immaculate costuming. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. It's really only been a week since we were last year, but it feels like a long time. I don't know why. Joining me today, as per yush, it's Rob Mahoney. Hi, Rob. How are you? Hey, Joe. I think it's probably felt like a long time because we've been absorbing hundreds of years of Japanese history, just really mainlining it getting ready for Shogun. So I'm ready to unload today. It is true. We are now definitely experts in Japanese history and Japanese language and Japanese pronunciation and we won't get a single thing wrong. Nope.

And if we were, to get one tiny thing wrong, which I know we won't. But if we were, you can always email us. The email for this show, if you didn't listen to our preview that we did at the end of the true detective finale, the email for this show is Top Knots and Man Buns at Gmail.com. We're here today to cover the two-episode premiere of Shogun, and I'm going to try to pronounce it correctly because we did get at least one email being like, Joanna, why? Why are you so American? I was like, oh, I just am. We're covering episode one and episode two,

Anjin and Servants of Two Masters, and we will be here week to week for the next eight weeks until the show is done. I am thrilled about that. That takes us, I think, through, like, April. Was PokerFace as long? Is this the longest show we've done together, Rob? It's got to be the longest by runtime, if nothing else.

These are fully loaded episodes in a way that's, I mean, They're dense and exciting. There's a lot to get through. But I would think in total, it's going to be the biggest body of work we've done on the prestige feed today, Joe. So today we are going to do something slightly different in that we are breaking these episodes down by our three main characters. And sort of nestled underneath those characters are going to be other characters, bits of history, other things going on. This is going to be a very, like, context-heavy podcast episode. I don't imagine that's how everything is going to be going forward,

but we just want to make sure that everyone has like sure-footed and understands where we are, what we're doing, et cetera. If you are confused and we have not satisfied your curiosity, I should say there is extensive supplemental material on the FX website for character breakdowns, timelines, family trees, allegiances, locations, all that sort of stuff. They have been like working overtime on the design for this. So all that supplemental material is there.

we're not here to be in an encyclopedia necessarily, but we would just want to make sure that everyone knows what's going on. Yeah, and I think there's a middle ground, too, where I don't know how you feel about this, Joe, but personally, I don't want to delve too deep into that stuff until that information's revealed on the show. I just don't want to know who's related or who knows each other or what the nature of their relationships are just yet.

And so if you're the kind of person who is a little bit more spoiler-sensitive around that kind of thing, I'm hoping you and I can kind of digest some of that information and remind people and relay people. You know, we don't want to go full explainer podcast with this, but with a cast as big, some explainering is going to have to be done. I think that that's a great reminder for the spoiler warning, which is, yes, I have read part one of Shogun.

I will not be spoiling things that happen down the line, even if I might know what's happening down the line for characters. And to Rob's point, because I care deeply about Robb, vehemently anti-spoiler nature. I won't, like, if I know something about someone's backstory, but the show hasn't told us about their backstory, I'm not going to tell you, but, I mean, I will say there's some, like,

slightly fuzzy gray areas. If characters are exchanging glances, loaded glances, and it's our job on the... Oh, we had some loaded glances this week. Like, fully loaded baked potato glances. And, like, it's our job on this podcast. you offer up our interpretation of those glances,

I might then bring in some contextual source material and say, like, I think this is what's going on here, something like that, you know? I think that's helpful. And not to ape other Joanna Robinson properties, but I'm Rob Mahoney and I have not read any of the books in Tim Clavel's.

What's the name of the series? The Asian saga? Asian saga. Yeah, exactly. Great. Wow, it just took me all the way back, Rob. Thank you. I'm going to just repeat the opening title cards that we get at the beginning of episode one.

I'm just going to read them out just so that we are all on the same page here. The year is 1600. For decades, Portuguese Catholics have richly profited from trade in Japan. They have kept its whereabouts hidden from their sworn enemies, the European Protestants. In Osaka, the reigning tycho has died, leaving behind an heir too young to rule. Five warrior lords are now trapped in a bitter struggle. all of them seek the title that would make their power absolute Shogun. And already there's a difference in that opening.

There's a significant difference that I do want to talk about between the book and the show. We'll get to that later when we get to sort of the Shogun section of this explanation. But the quote that I love the quote that I picked that I picked for the beginning of the podcast because it has to do with this overriding question of like fate and clashing ideology. of like Western, Eastern ideas of destiny and fate and all of that. So I like that's there, but I will say if I felt like it was useful to put a quote, all in Japanese at the beginning, I would have picked this one, which is Tornaug at the end of episode one when he says to Mariko, I think our fate has brought us together.

You, me, and this barbarian could turn the tide. That's our trio, our main tree. are these three characters. These are the three main characters of the show. You, me, and our barbarian Kai on production today. We are going to turn the tides together. All right, so we're going to start with John Blackthorn, aka Anjin, the Japanese word for pilot,

the crew of the Erasmus. First impressions, how are you feeling about this character? What do you feel is most important to know about this character? Rob Mountain. I mean, there's a lot. For one, I'm really enjoying this performance from Cosmo Jarvis. an actor I don't have any experience with, an actor who I was learning about,

and found that he's also a musician, that this was news to me. I feel like if you're named Cosmo, you're legally obliged to also be a musician, no matter what else you do, you know? That may be legally true, but I found that apparently one of his most well-known songs

is called Gay Pirates, and it's about, you guessed it, gay pirates. Must listen. I will be tuning into that immediately. Thank you. We'll see if we can point some Spotify listens in his direct. But I'm loving the performance.

I'm loving the usage of this character. There's obviously a lot of landmines to step around with a stranger in a strange land kind of story. But I think how out of his element Blackthorn is and in over his head he is, is something that's very fun to watch, especially as literally everyone in his orbit is telling him, maybe you're not cut out for this game.

Maybe you're not cut out for this world. And nowhere is that more apparent than in the communication gap between the characters. And I do want to zero in on the way Blackthorn speaks in the show in which we are hearing English. He's actually speaking mostly Portuguese, sometimes Dutch. And I love the disconnect between the characters in terms of language because to me, it allows you to do something really unique in adapting this big sweeping novel. The difficulty with that is always, like, how do you capture the interiority of these characters

that you can get on the page but you can't get on a screen so easily? Yeah. And they found a really clever way to do it, which is because, these characters can't understand each other, they kind of speak their mind out loud a little more often. And I think you get that in particular with Yabushige and Blackthorn. And

like, as they're kind of challenging each other and puffing out their chest at each other, they're being a little bit more clear and more open in the actual dialogue of the show as to what they're doing in a way that allows us to get a sense of who these characters are, but doesn't feel like we're being beat over the head with it. I love that. There are like a lot

of passages of dialogue directly lifted from the book into the show, but some of the dialogue is, to your point, interior monologue that has been turned into dialogue. I think that's a really smart observation. What I love about Blackthorn, which I don't know is super clear in the show, but he's on the Erasmus.

He's surrounded by Dutch sailors, and he's English. He's the only Englishman on this ship. Pause for tiny history lesson of this time is that the Spanish Empire, which included Portugal, is a Catholic Empire. The Netherlands is a Protestant country. So they are trying to, for decades, get out from underneath Spanish control, and they are not free from Spanish control yet.

And their main ally in this is England, another Protestant country. And so it is a religious war, but it's also, of course, always about, like, money and power and trade and all that sort of stuff. And so this idea that the Portuguese, the Spanish Empire, the Portuguese have been over here in Asia, amassing riches because no one else could figure out how to get through the Straits of Magellan. And that's why the Erasmus is so important because they've got this stolen, you know, it's called a rudder, but a stolen notebook from a Spanish seaman who plots the course around the bottom of South America into. you know, into the Pacific and into the Asian territories. So what I like about all that is that John Blackthorne from the start is an outsider on this ship. Yes.

And, you know, as is very clear from the show, they were dire straits before they crash land here. The dental situation was not looking good. It's never great on a sailor, I would say. But there is like an explanation in the book about, why he has better teeth than everyone else. He's like hoarding his vitamin C or something like that. Like he's, um,

but they blame him. He's, he's the English. He's the outsider. He's the pilot. He's the one who got them there. So, um,

I think that's really interesting. Also, the suicide of the captain that starts to show is a show invention, but it really, these, what this part of the show does is zip through, like the crew of the Erasmus, which you spend a lot of time with in the book.

And I think very, to your point about landmines, I think is very important for this show to get us inside the heads and inside the lives of the Japanese characters in the show and not linger too long with the Erasmus. And in doing so, they pulled up some things in the timeline. So things are happening concurrently. So we get to meet Mariko so quickly. We get to meet Taranaga so quickly. And we're not waiting to get Blackthorn to Osaka in order to meet them, et cetera.

So I thought that was really smart. I also love this performance. I think it's great. I think it's challenging because Blackthorn is not, he's both a personality that I'm not sure I love. No. I mean, he's literally pillaging and murdering up and down the coast. So, like, not a chill guy, I think we can say.

I don't need to hedge that. Not a fan of a pillager. But there is something about this performance where I'm, like, invested in his well-being and interested to see him navigate. this. What do you think is the most interesting like the most illuminating moment in his journey through

Anjan and into Osaka? Like, what have you seen from him that you're like, this guy is worth something to them is going to survive the situation versus his crewmates? Yeah, I mean, the crewmates, at least one of them did not last very long. Yikes, yeah. Our guy boiled alive. The rest of them, I think, covered in fish guts down in the pit. At least it

look like some rotting fish, which is a great technique. I support it. That's just the last thing I want dumped on me, honestly. I would prefer boiling oil before food cuts. Well, look, you give those fish guts a couple more years to ferment. You throw some salt in there. That's just straight umami. That's just straight fish sauce.

Now, could fish sauce alone kill a Dutchman? Probably during this era. They're not ready for all that. They are not. Blackthorn is cut from some different stuff, and I appreciate his pluck. I appreciate his metal. And getting this kind of, you know, he gives us a history lesson in this episode in a way where I think you illuminating him as an outsider is very smart, Joe,

because clearly he has an understanding of the global board, at least as it relates to Europe, in a way that seems pretty advanced for a random pilot of a ship. Like, he knows the treaty situation between Spain and Portugal as far as, like, divvying up the rest of the world so much that he can walk our Japanese characters through that and say, like, this is what these dudes are doing behind your back. This is what the church and what these states, think of the rest of the world and think of what belongs to them and ultimately their plans as he

states it to install their own leaders in these areas and these regions. So he's privy to a level of intel that they don't have just from being out and about, out on the ocean, coming from Europe specifically and having a sense of the political battlegrounds there. That's useful to them. And I imagine on

some level the access to cannons and muskets and all the kind of the goods of the Erasmus that characters are fighting over in these episodes, that seems pretty useful too. Something that I thought was really interesting. Obviously, like, his, him understanding the importance of absorbing as much of the Japanese language as he can as he goes, like, that is, that is a key factor.

A pretty quick learner, I would say, at least in terms of parroting, crudely parroting some phrases back to them. We get this interaction with Friar Domingo in episode two, which is the, you know, the Catholic priest he meets in the prison in Osaka. Domingo says you can't play their game. Their rules are too opaque. Their heart's too guarded. And he says, you don't know me.

Black woman says, you don't know me. And he says, I've known a thousand of you. We're just dropping bars out of the gate. Yeah, I mean, the writing on the show. And you would know better than I would as far as, like, what is lifted straight from the text and how much of this is straight out of the book. But I'm loving the specificity of the dialogue, but also, like, the grandeur of the dialogue. I completely agree.

plenty of stuff that's show invented that just blends with the elevated language that's already in the book. I think it's like a perfect match. You know, like, early Thrones was so good at that where, like, you couldn't necessarily tell a Weiss and Beniof line from a George R. Martin line. That's the first invocation of Thrones. It probably won't be the last. But also, I should say, Rob and I just watched Dune. Were you thinking about Dune a lot? Were you thinking about Pala Trety's with the Freeman when you were watching this?

For sure. And even things like Lord Ono, who's like the other regent who is cloaked in a veil because he has leprosy, there's elements of this show based on the way they're shot where you get this like hyper-focused lens that's like it's almost fish eye like you get some of that blur around the edges. And it makes everything feel kind of surreal sometimes, almost bordering on sci-fi sometimes. And it's not just an anchor thing around like Blackthorne's point of view being again a stranger in a strange land. I think it's just the framing of this show and the visual language of it, but it makes characters like Lord Ono feel mysterious in a totally different way, in almost a sci-fi kind of way. Right, like a Benajezer situation or something. Yeah, the blur around the edges is something I've noticed

here and there in other shows. It's like a kind of a trendy way to shoot prestige television right now to make it look, I don't know, like artier. I mean, I think this show is beautiful and beautifully shot. And, you know, I recommend people watch it on the biggest screen possible. So I'm not knocking anyway, but I did think that was interesting. Well, it does help smooth over the edges of those beautiful sets and those beautiful constructions when you shoot it that way. And if anything, I admire it and I appreciate that they're doing that because the pacing of this show in terms of how the camera moves, like we are moving at the speed of a person walking in a kimono.

Like, it is extraordinarily patient. And if you're going to do that, I'm totally okay with this sort of stylistic framing because it makes everything work that much more effectively. I think the other Blackthorn moment that I want to call out specifically is the rescue of Rodriguez. So for someone who is content to pillage and plunder and for who, like, Rodriguez has not shown him all his cards yet, like he doesn't know that he has the notebook and the rudder and all that. but they're not best pals. So what does it say about Blackthorn that he's the kind of person who would go out to rescue someone

who really seems like he should be dead, you know? Well, it says he's not a savage whore bitch turd, which I think is what he calls Hiramatsu at the implication that they would not go after Rodriguez. Right. So there's like some sort of chivalric code of some kind. Yeah. In the book, it's interesting.

Rodriguez has already tried to kill Blackthorn previous to that. I don't think they're even going to do that sequence. So that's not a spoiler. That's just like something that the book does. Rodriguez tries to kill him and then he rescues him anyway. And he says he owes him that. And I'm like, I think it's a fascinating character moment. And like, obviously we're going to come back to that because I think it's an even more fascinating character moment for the Yaboo character who is like emerging as one of my favorite characters.

Incredible. Really compelling. But yeah, the Blackthorn journey, I just think they really perfectly balanced the equation so that I just did not feel like, I don't feel like it's my only main point of view of the series, which is how the original miniseries was pitched. Because as we mentioned in our preview that we did last week, the original miniseries from 1980 did not subtitle the Japanese. And the point was to make you the viewer as disoriented as Blackthorn was. But what that means is that Blackthorn and, like, Rodriguez and the various Josuit priests, etc., are your only anchor point through this. And that really does lean heavily into some of those nastier tropes, whereas both the book,

which shifts around in characters' heads all the time, equally, and this show just are invested in everyone. It's a sprawling saga. Everyone is a point of view. Yes. Everyone has a compelling story to tell. And Blackthorner is being checked by everyone along the way. Tornaga's going to check him.

Mariko's going to check him. But I would say in particular, his dynamic with Yabushige, this mutual respect of guys being dudes thing that they have going on. I'm really resonating with. And especially the way that whole exchange where Yabu's fallen off of the rope, trying to rescue Rodriguez, onto the rocks, into the waves. And the way Blackthorn is like, lording over that situation.

It's literally shot looking up at him as he's waiting for this guy to die. And he goes from that to being mystified by the idea that he's drawn his sword and is about to commit Sepuku. And from that to having this like admiration for the way he pulled himself out of it. And for the acceptance of that situation

of accepting his fate is something that he's trying to like wrap his head around throughout both of these episodes. Let's talk about Yobu Shige and like, his two or three main moments that are so fascinating. I want to return to that Sepuku moment, but it's so closely tied to the earlier moment when he is listening to the aforementioned Dutch sailor stew being cooked,

right? And he's listening to the screams. And in the show he's described as, quote, obsessed with a moment of death when you are powerless and it's inevitable, how a man faces such a moment. And I think that's so fascinating. In the book he's described as almost like orgasming as he's like listening to this in the garden. And of course, you know.

We know he likes to watch. Right. Kiku, who is our cortisans, you know, takes some clues from this as to what he might enjoy later. What do you make of that? Like, what kind of man is that to sit there and listen to these screams and, and, um, meditate and draw pleasure from it. Yeah, drawing pleasure from it. I think also drawing some intellectual

stimulation from it, right? He's comparing this guy's death to the previous Christians. He's apparently boiled through the same method. Maybe invented suvied? Who's to say? If you're wondering, by the way, why do they have a cauldron that's that big? In the book, it's used for rendering blubber from the whales.

So that's the blubber renderer. and they're like, why not render a Christian or two while we're at it? So he's not bringing around his man-boiling cauldron. I mean, I would imagine it's quite heavy. There's one in every town, in every port. It's one in every town. I also did enjoy the way he puts, you know, his precocious kind of nephew, Omi, on the spot. And like, okay, write me a poem about this man's death, about that moment, right?

So there is a sensual response to the person dying. there's the intellectual response to the person dying. There's also this kind of artistic harnessing of that moment and kind of testing his nephew in the process and putting him on the spot in a way that they worked out for everybody. And for what it's worth, I thought it was a beautiful little poem that he wrote. His eyes were just the end of hell. All pain, articulate.

Now, haiku or my chemical romance b-side, Joe. Why not both is my answer to that? If you take that idea, though, obsess with the moment of death when you were powerless, And it's inevitable how a man faces such a moment. And you bring that forward to Yabu on, you know, on the cliffside and the tides coming in. This is how it's described in the book, quote, karma he told himself and turned away from them settling himself more comfortably, enjoying the vast clarity that had come to him. Last day, last sea, last light, last joy, last everything.

How beautiful the sea and the sky and the cold and the cold and the sea. the salt. So instead of just like floundering in the water and drawing his sword, he's actually just like sitting on the rocks. He cannot see a way out of it. They're not going to get him the rope in time and like waiting for the water to take him, which I'm drawing your sword in the water. I was just like, let the water take you, man. You don't need to get the sword out. But to Rodriguez's point later, like he chose the manner, he was trying to choose the manner of his own death. But this, this idea of a man obsessed with that moment of death, the clarifies, the clarifies, what the clarity that comes from it and how listening to Sailor Suvide and, you know,

facing his own death just a little while later is a really fascinating introduction and through line for a character. Shout out to Blackthorne in the book who there, I mean, when I was watching, I was like, when they show the man running down for the rope, I'm like, how on earth is he going to go down, get the rope and come back up that mountain? in time to save him. In the book, Blackthorne makes rope out of everyone's kimonos and throws it over and saves him. And I'm just like, give that man, that's ingenuity.

If Blackthorne is ingenuities, he MacGyver and a rope out of kimonos, come on. But then they scouted that cliff and they're like, there's not enough kimonos in this party. We don't have enough cloth here. It's the cliffs of insanity. And then, like, once your interpretation of the moment after when Yabu comes up, I mean, Blackthorn basically, like, dares him to go down. But, like, what do you make? of the moment when he comes up and they sort of bow and confront each other.

I think this is the moment where Blackthorn starts to, like, he's starting to reckon with these cultural traditions. Things like Sepaku, obviously, he's trying to understand, but also understanding the way that plays into the resilience of these characters, plays into the honor of these characters. And there is, there's such a clear acknowledgement of like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know your game. You know, I'm backing up. I, I, I didn't know it was like that. I didn't know what. I didn't know what. I was walking into out here. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think those sorts of acknowledgments are what make Blackthorn more compelling to. The fact that he is seeing his place in a culture that's beyond him, in a machine he doesn't yet understand, that he's clearly misstepping all over the place to the point of almost dying on a bunch of different occasions. But he can see a guy climbing up out of death right in front of him and understand what that means. Like he needs to be knocked over the head with some of the directness of what this represents. But when he sees it, he sees it. I think that idea of one of my favorite sort of visual representations of that is him punching his fist through the rice paper on the door because he doesn't understand how the doors work here. Right? And then he's like, oh, it's a slide situation.

It's a push-knock pull or whatever. But that's just like such a beautiful quick visual of like blundering your way through something because you don't understand it before you realize how things work here. Also an early nomination for line reading of the series when Cosmo Jarvis. it's just like, where are my boots as he bashfully covers his junk? Yeah.

Great stuff. I'm hoping that Blackthorne's journey through learning this culture means he starts to ramp up his bathing, right? He's like,

two baths in one week. What are you trying to give me the flux? What are you doing to me? Who could imagine it? They basically have to hose him down the first time. I don't even know if that counts as a bath,

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So this idea of like an ordained leader, divine ordained leader is from a bloodline. But the emperor is powerless because he is not. not allowed to collect taxes or have an income or have any kind of revenue. So he's dependent on the daimyo's or the or the shogun or whoever, the various feudal lords to give him a stipend in order to be this sort of glorious divine figurehead of Japan. That's fascinating to me. Absolutely. And we hear a little bit about the other side of that dynamic with Yabushige and his nephew when he like, it was like, oh, I'm going to increase your fief because you, you've been so great in this situation by specifically 3,000,

it's like basically units of rice is like the measurement of in which they're increasing the size of what his kingdom is worth, like kind of a stipend in its own way. Yeah, absolutely. So you have emperor, divine, directly descended from the gods, emperor at the top, but largely powerless. The next rank below emperor is Shogun. And as we hear on the show,

there has not been a Shogun for a hundred years, a century. The Shogun has to be, it is the ultimate rank of mortal can achieve in Japan, but they have to be named by the emperor. So the emperor has to name you Shogun, and you have to have amassed enough, like, undeniable power. And, and this is crucial, and this is where I go back to that opening card at the beginning of the show. you know, according to the book and also Japanese history,

you have to be descended from one of three semi-royal families. And Toranaaga, our guy Tornaga, is, but like Ishido, his main rival, is not. And so I loved learning that because I was like, Ishiido hates Tornaaga for a number of reasons. But one of them is that, like,

Tornaaga could become Shogun, and Ashiro, never can because of the rules of this. So the opening card saying like five lords seek the title that would make their power absolute shogun, like, I don't know if they're going to change the rules of that for the show that like Ashido could become if he is powerful enough. But the reason they haven't had one for a century is there hasn't been a daimio, a lord, powerful enough from one of the three families to earn that title.

Nakamura, who is the tycho who died. Do we see his death at the beginning of episode two, but he has died previously, was a peasant who rose up the ranks to become a general, and then eventually the Tyco, the like lord over the other daimyo's. And Ishido is also a peasant who rose up the ranks.

So, I don't know, is that an interesting dynamic for, do you think for the show to explore, or do you think it's not worth getting into going forward. In terms of like the bloodline aspect of it? Or what do you mean specifically? Like the difference between coming from nothing.

I mean, I just think knowing that about Ishido. And again, maybe that's some of that back story that you wish you didn't know because the show hasn't like told us explicitly. But I hope it's like minor enough. And they might not even go into it. But I just think that's like from our Western point of view when we think about like self-made men versus like men who were born into something. It changes our view of who they are.

And in this era of Japan, it definitely means something, but means maybe something a little different to the society. And I'm curious to see how much they want to get into it or not. Yeah, I mean, it tells us a lot about both characters for sure. You know, Tornaaga in particular, as you mentioned, the level of fear the other regents have, because he is accruing land, because he's taken on. wives left and right, like he is clearly getting more powerful in a way that combined with

that bloodline makes them very nervous. It makes it very easy for Ashido to like unite the other regents against him. When Tornaga comes into the room to meet with them, they're not in a circle anymore. It's like a tribunal, right? It is them against him. Yeah. And so knowing the bloodline helps clarify that in the same way that understanding that Ishido is coming from somewhere very different where he has to claim power through other means or he has to command respect through other means gives us a clearer sense of his character and also why he in his own way might be as ruthless as he is.

It's so interesting because, like, Tornaga's being set up, again, my brain is cooked and I think of things in terms of Thrones all the time. This is the clearest thrones parallel. Like, the way in which he is, like, hostage in Osaka. Yes. Makes me immediately think of Ned Stark. But I have to say that, like, reading the book,

I'm not, I wouldn't necessarily align the two characters. But I think the show is leaning into that a little bit. Was that your takeaway as well? A hundred percent. And you even get a sense of it. I mean, you get some Ned Stark. You get some kind of John Snow type parallels in the sense that Toranauga sees the idea of a Shogun as a relic of a time gone by.

Like we don't need that anymore. And Lady Io, who's the widow of the previous Tycho, like she even says, like, basically you're too good a man for these times, right? that we need something different, you know, like a wartime versus peacetime conciliary a bit. And so Tornaga's reluctance to take on those roles, to take the kind of power, even if he's sort of amassing it in his own organic way.

Yeah. How do you not think of someone like Ned Stark? How do you not think of some of the reluctant kings or reluctant rulers of other fiction or other fantasy? As we're fond of saying on House of Ar, like one of my favorite John Snowline's to make fun of is, I don't want it, which he says like a million times. I don't want to be gang.

This is, I think, the most fascinating question around the Tornaga character, because as you alluded to, he says, I've told you before, I don't seek to be Shogun that title is a brutal relic from a bygone era, right? Do we believe him? Because he has also had some dream armor fashioned in a style that goes back to the minoara Shogunate. It's so sick, too. That armor looks great. Oh, it's amazing.

But if you're like, I don't want it. I'll just, from this moment in the book, and he says it all the time in the book. And he says it sharply and angrily. Because to say he wants it is treason, right? And so anytime someone suggests it, even in private, even his most trusted advisors, he's like, absolutely not.

No, I've said it a million times. I don't want it. But here's this quote from the book, from right around this era, so it's not like future spoiler. the others fear him too much because they all know he secretly wants to be Shogun however much he protests, he doesn't.

And I think that's a tension in the book. I think we're supposed to not be sure. Everyone presumes that's what he wants. He is constantly saying he doesn't want it. What little hints and clues do we see of his character that tell us one way or another where he is on that question, you know? There were so many things in these first two episodes

that really sold me on this show. But I would say the biggest one for me is the meeting of the council. And in particular, the dynamic between Toranauga and Ishido as they're speaking in this really formal capacity, but through seven different layers of etiquette and deception and amassing their intentions, right?

There's like what these characters want, there's what, like how they could actually achieve it realistically in this world. There's how they packaged that want to the world, there's what they're allowed to say in these situations and then there's what they actually do say and everything is very polished and sanded down on the surface, but to your point,

everything, we have to read into every declaration on this show because Tornaga in particular is very savvy. He's very careful in a way where he knows that when he has offered the chance to be the sole regent by the dying Tyco, there's no way he could possibly accept it.

It puts a target on his back. It's putting a huge target on his back and so his his willingness and inclination to decline that offer is not, I don't want that kind of power. It's, I don't want to die. Yeah. And so he knows enough of this game to know what he can and can't get into in a way where, yes, I'm sure on some level he believes that the Shogun is, like, that Japanese

society has passed the Shogun by. But on another level, it would probably pretty nice to rock that armor. Pretty sick. All right. Let's like about Nakamura, the Tyco, the previous Tyco, who, put a stop to civil war for a long time. He was like a peacetime ruler, but like a hardcore general who came up from peasant to be the second,

the most powerful man, right? The emperor is the figurehead, and then he's the next most powerful, the tycho. A detail from the book that I love that is not necessary to the show. But like, so he rose at their ranks and then he closed the door behind him and made it so that like enforced a strict caste system. So no other peasant could rise up the ranks and, like, and challenge him. So, like, you know, you no longer have that upper mobility in Japan under his rule, which I think is fascinating and hilarious.

His son, Yichio, whose name is changed from the book, I don't know why. This is another sort of, like, Ned Starkish moment, right, when his widow says to Tornaga, what happens to the boy if you're gone? Yeah. Right? and like Tarnaga, who is a political animal, but does when we see Nakamura dying at the beginning of episode two, there is a real, you know, Rob and Ned camaraderie, we were generals together,

a sort of relationship between the two of them. I don't know that that is like the most important thing in the world to Tornaga, but I do think there does seem to be real warmth towards, the boy, and something genuine there, that again makes him, to us, because of how we're trained, a more appealing leader than someone like Ishido, right, who is being cast as a sort of, as a villain figure. Yeah, even though ultimately their methods are different, but they might not actually be so different, Torinaga and Ishido.

In particular, the alliances and the relationships you're talking about, like Yabushige and Ishito have a similar wartime bond from serving together, which is why Yabushige, even though technically Torinaga is his lord, is kind of rattling off behind the back, just trying to make sure all his eyes

are dotted, his T's or crossed. Very meticulous. Are guys getting some contingencies in order in case things swing the wrong way? I love that he's like, we go from the scene of him being like, wouldn't it be great to have the barbarian under a vassal who's under your control, Ishido, let's

let's see if I could do something about him being assassinated. We see him rescue Blackthorn for being assassinated and then taking him directly to Torinaga. And you're like, oh, that's not where I thought you were going to take him. And that's the joyride that we're on, I think, for Shogun and for Yaba, who's like constantly trying to predict where the wind is blowing. But like, to go back to that death scene, there's some key beats in there. First of all, I think it was absolutely beautiful when Nakabu. Murah says as he's dying and his son is like, am I going to recognize you? You're going to have

your eyelashes. You're going to have your, you know, like all this stuff. And he says, so strange, this life, just a dream of a dream, like just a beautiful moment that I loved. But in the midst of all of this dying, we get his heir's mother, who we hear about a lot in episode one, Ochiab. This is where the most loaded baked potato glances are happening. What is your interpretation of what's going on with Chiva. We do get some hint of maybe a past between her and Tornaga, like that they, there was a possibility of them maybe being married at some point. To which we get the wonderful exchange from Tora Naga,

I never cared for beautiful women. And the Tico responds, and I cared too much. But also, I want to unpack this metaphor that the Tyco trots out, which is we've shit too many times in the same pot to piss on our own feet. Yeah. the mechanics of which are maybe lost on me a little bit but I understand his meaning I think Yeah like let's not fight over women

Let's not share the same woman I guess Because we've done too much battle together And that's that's the act of shitting in the pot I don't know what the pot is what the feet are I mean I think I can get the gist of the shit and the piss But I'm a little confused on the specifics of that But yeah the glances are intense

the camera is telling us this is an important thing. You need to clock. Obviously, Ociba is like a plot mechanic, right? Getting the motion of the show in order from the very star. Like, her presence at Toranauga's castle is what gets this whole thing going in the first place. Like, that is seen by the other regions as like a hostage type situation. And to our conversation about Tornaga, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. You know, why not both?

Why can't it be her attending to this birth? and also very convenient that she's there in terms of securing the safety of him and his whole traveling party. But needless to say, this cannot be the last of that relationship. I'm looking forward to seeing exactly how these two are entangled.

We're going to talk a little bit more about the religious dynamics I think when we get to Mariko, but shout out to Chiba for maybe God's religion is up your own ass have you thought of that exit line. Just an all-timer. Real banger from her.

I love that. Let's talk about the regents. So Tornaga, as we mentioned, technically the appointed leader of the Regent's Council as appointed by Nakamura. Ashido, his chief rival. Kiyama, who's the wealthiest, who's also Christian. And we're told is pretty greedy and ambitious. Sugiyama, who is the eldest, and Ono, who has leprosy and also has converted to Christianity. So two Christian lords, five lords in total.

Ishido has convinced three other lores to sort of sit in a straight line with him in front of Toranauga, convince them that Toranauga is too much of a threat and they need to take him off. And I think the way that the region's council is set up is that if they knock a region down, let's say they take Toranauga down, they have to replace them.

It's always five people on the council. And so in the book, you hear Yabu constantly thinking about, like, could I find my way onto the council? And this is why he's so interested in Blackthorne's ship, in the guns and the cannons and all that sort of stuff. He's like, I see this as

my way forward towards a seat on the council because that is what my power hungry ass wants. Well, it's why he pitches himself as a freelance operator to reign in Blackthorn, which very relatable. Who among us hasn't pitched themselves

into a position out in the world? But maybe nothing in this episode more relatable than Toranauga sitting in front of the council complaining about how exhausting these meetings are. Just dynamite stuff. Could have been an email, guys. Definitely could have been an email. Quick little terminology breakdown. The show is using Boucho and Bushi, like sort of interchangeably with Dimeo. I word-searched that word in the books.

It never shows up. So it's a word that Kavelle did not think to use. So I was like, what is the difference? What does it mean? Boucho means, like, essentially general, warlord. Like, boo means war, and show means, like, professional of. So, like, a warlord. And the daimio means big, it's big plus name.

So, like, I would say it's the difference between, like, a warlord or a general versus, like, an aristocrat, a noble, a, a lord, you know, and you can be both a daimio and a busho, but like, not every daimio is a bushel. Like, not every lord got there through war, but maybe it's worth reminding us that Toranauga was a general, Ishido was a general, et cetera, et cetera, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. And then did our Yabu break down? Anything else you want to say, we got through Yabu, we mentioned Omi, anything else you

want to say about Omi, who was a character I really enjoyed, who was sort of like running the show for a hot second before Yabu shows up. I just love that he doesn't, you know, let his ambitions. And he's clearly an ambitious character, someone who is encouraged by his mother to like, okay, this is your moment, right? Your uncle never comes to this town. Yabu Shige never comes here. This is your face time. See what you can get. See if you can claw your way up. He's yet another kind of opportunist in this chain of opportunist. But he's not letting all that get in the way of, you know, the little things in life, like literally taking a piss on Blackthorn and dumping rotting fish on people. You have to have your fun. You know what I mean? It's like a work with life

balance situation. And we get a very notable contrast. If we're looking at like the the junior Avengers side of the bracket here. Yeah. You know, we have Tornaga's son as well. Nagakato, who as far as we know just seems very earnest, dude loves a bird. Loves a falcon. We haven't really seen a lot of him yet to know what his character's like other than to know that he is patient enough to not barge into the meeting to get himself and his baby executed. Yeah, that feels like meeting etiquette 101. It's the least you can do.

Speaking of, let's talk about consorts, wives, and courtesans while we're here. We have Fuji, who is the wife of the guy who could not control himself in a meeting. Yes. She is General Hiramatsu's favorite granddaughter. And so she is not. allowed to join her husband and her baby as we put an end to that bloodline. Yes. You and I were talking about this a little bit with Kai before we started recording last

week about sort of like, again, to bring up Thrones, which FX is either delighted or annoyed by us bringing it up in contrast to Shogun, but like the level of nudity and violence in this show is more than I thought FX was allowed. to do. How did it play for you? How did you feel about it? We got a boiling guy. We got a abrupt beheading.

A lot of beheadings, ultimately. Yes, yes. But you know that one that happens in the street and you're like, that's how I felt. And then like, you know, a baby dies. You know, how are you feeling about, I'm not, after Years of Thrones, I'm not very squeamish anymore.

But like, does this feel like a good calibration? for the story that they're trying to tell. So many aspects of this world are incredibly brutal. Any interaction with a lord feels like it could explode at any moment, right? You say one wrong thing, and you and your baby are dead. So I think setting up the stakes of that is important to the story. I think it's also important to prime viewers, too. Like, you don't want people getting six episodes into the show

and getting invested in the characters and then seeing a level of violence and barbarity that they're not prepared for. So we're coming out of the gate. We got the headings. We got a dead baby. we got boiling alive. We got a maid going around, slitting throats left and right.

That was sick. That was so cool. What a secret. That was so good. I loved that. And then the final shot of her bleeding into the sand. Again, they're just like extremely beautiful

framings and moments in this show. So we have Fuji. We already talked about Oceba. With Fuji before we move on, if I'm understanding the family tree correctly, she is Mariko's niece. She would be, yeah. By marriage?

Because Buntaro, who Mariko is married to, is the son of Hiramatsu, the general, who's like, Tornaugas lead advisor. Yes. So, niece by, like, marriage, but he's still, yes. Which I think gives some context to when Mariko kind of comes to her defense in the whole situation surrounding who gets to hold and kill this baby, her most precious thing in the world. It's incredibly, like, an emotionally fraught scene. And I think Mariko's placing it in, like, chewing everybody out.

and kind of making space for Fuji, it helps understand the dynamic of what's happening there. And why she has, like, authority there. But also, it's an extremely telling thing about her personality, and we'll get to her in a second. Lady Io, you mentioned, is the Tycho's widow. She's become a nun since his death. So, Toranooga's wife, Kiri, who I absolutely love.

Great hang. Just wonderful. And the fact that, like, Tornaugos sits there, surrounded by women, seeks their counsel. you know, makes me like him. Sorry. I mean,

he's dishing it out. He's taking some barbs. They have a really fun relationship. They have a fun relationship, but I just like that he's like, I see the value. Like, you know,

this is a society in which women have a certain place that they're asked to keep. And, you know, with some flexibility here and there. And for Tar, Tora not going to be the kind of leader

who's like, there's, I see value in you or there's advice. you can give me a perspective you have, and I am eager to hear it, and your gender is not important to me. Or, like, in the case of Blackthorn,

if Blackthorn has information for him, he's like, I'm eager to learn from you as well. Like, that's, you know, again, that makes him a very compelling character. Very open-minded. And I think there is a bit of a contrast there, though, in the sense that his wives, he clearly does have this respect for,

their point of view, their perspectives. Blackthorn, I think, is, if anything, a symbol of how desperate Torinaga is. And that's one thing that, I don't know about you, but I'm still adjusting to the pace of the political scheming in this show. Let's just lop one more Game of Thrones comp on this thing. But I'm so used to that pace of characters holding things

so close to the vest. They literally die before sharing them. Yeah. In these first two episodes, you get a lot of information revealed, and a lot of it then relayed pretty quickly. The Macau information coming out immediately. I was like, oh, you don't want to sit on that?

No. But I think that kind of speaks to the fact that Tornaug is playing a long game. And I wouldn't say he's wheeling and dealing inside that, but there's a productivity to him that speaks to the urgency of his situation. Like, he knows if one wrong vote goes against him, he is a dead man. And everyone who follows him is effectively dead. So he has to be a little bit more active in ways that shows in like, characters in other political epics and historical epics don't always have

the luxury of being. In terms of how the women are being portrayed in the show, comparing it to the book, I think it's interesting because, like, Mariko, who is our last stop and we will get to her, but, like, Mariko is, like, is a fighter, is a samurai, like, is all this stuff in the book as well, is the translator, all this sort of stuff, is a strong and forceable personality, all of that. But there are other little moments where this FX show is giving these women just like even a little bit more agency than the book did.

It's not a massive like, you know, girl power wash of history or anything like that. But for stuff like for Kiku, the courtesan who we meet, in that sequence in the book, it's just like it's a threesome that is completely driven by Yabu's direction and his desires. And instead, this is like Kiku figuring out something that he wants.

And she is the one who feels incompletely. control of that situation. Absolutely. And so that's just like a slight tweak of a scene that already exists that, you know, for a character who, you know, we hopefully get to see it absolutely compelling, right? Like, you're just like, this is a woman who is wielding a weapon she has is just sexual power and her intelligence and her like understanding of psychological profiles. And I am fascinated to see what that can do for her in the future.

And that's just like a slight minor show upgrade from who the character is in the book, which I really liked. Well, especially the framing of the first episode is like increasingly you're running into higher and higher ranked people. Like Yabushige comes into town. He's the big swinging dick who never even shows his face here. This is a character of considerable power in this community. Right. And Kiku walks into that room and just like handles him so, so easily. Yeah.

And so, yeah, those expressions of power beyond just like who has the source. and is riding the horse. Those are such crucial pieces of understanding this world. I want to talk about Mario and the Portuguese Jesuits is sort of like the last section that I want to do because she is someone who has converted and quite devoutly, like is beliefs, you know, because there's plenty of moments here

where people are using religion as a cudgel, a power, play, a shield, all this sort of stuff. And then there are, because, like, I would say of the, two quote unquote Christian lords on the council, I would say I believe the leper who, you know, and I do not believe the other one, right? I mean, one of them were led to believe at least basically orchestrates this assassination

attempt at the end of episode two. So how much of a Catholic can you really be? I don't want to go too far into book stuff that you don't know. So what is your understanding from hints that are dropped about like her past, her history, what happened with her father, everything like that. Yeah, I mean, the timeline of it being 14 years since her father's death and also 14 years since she became a Catholic, I imagine we're going to be able to unpack in some capacity as the story goes on. We do get this, she has kind of a vision of what I assume is her father's

death, after which she is asking God for forgiveness. So there's a lot of hinting around the edges of this incredible trauma. She confides in Father Alvito, as he alludes to with like some dark thoughts, right? Like, clearly this is a character who is who's battling some things, who is carrying some trauma, who has demons of her own. And her under her relationship with, with death and the idea of it is as interesting to me as Yabushige's. Like, I'm very curious to hear more about Mariko's perspective outside of just being, you know, a person who's torn between these two worlds. The servant of two masters is the name of episode two, Joe. You, you and I both love a dual purpose title. I almost said almost exactly that same line earlier when we were talking about Yabash.

because it's servants of two masters. And so there are multiple in that episode, and she's definitely one of them. But I would say, Yavishige is another. And I think you could apply it to many, many different characters. I mean, Torinaga could be one of those characters, ultimately, as we've been circling around this whole time. But her being torn between her lord and her faith,

or her lord and her capital L. Lord, if you want to put it that way, that's a compelling piece of drama right there. And you see it brought into Stark Relief in episode two where she's trying to understand, like, can I trust what Blackthorn is saying as far as the atrocities that the Catholic Church has perpetrated? And specifically, its level of involvement in kind of facilitating this uprising or at least arming the enemy that ultimately led to the Tyco's downfall. The idea of her being in the family, in the court, but desperate to not, like, wish that she had been able to. to take her own life along with her father and the rest of our family, right? And she is instead in this other position, has thrown herself into the church, has studied these languages. And so, like, her power, her usefulness, she's a plot mechanic to a certain degree,

but, like, her usefulness here is her intelligence, her facility with languages. And this push and pull of when she says, and she's a fighter and she has been, an ornamental wife in the meantime, right? And we get that in the show when Tornaga says to her, you've been kept from the fight and robbed of your purpose. What if as your liege lord, I could restore you to this purpose? The barbarian is, and then this is the servants of two masters part. The barbarian is an enemy of your faith. Would your loyalty to God conflict with your service to me? And she says, I have more than one heart. And I think that idea of I have more than one heart is going to be a central theme, you know, for so many characters in the show, right?

What are the forces pulling on you? Where are your allegiances, not just as like political movers and shakers, but like, you know, to which culture, to which religion, et cetera, et cetera. The religion is control. First of all, I love Friar Domingo, who we meet, because it feels very, like, like hashtag not all Catholics, right? Where in the show he says that he came there clutching his crucifix, like, you know, with stars in his eyes hoping to convert people.

And then he says, then I learn the true tenets of the cloth, silk, gold, and guns. They made an idol of that cursed black ship. We haven't even talked to the black ship yet. In the book, it's even more, which I love the sequence. He says, they're devils who pretend to serve the church in Christ, but they serve only themselves. They lust for power. at any cost, they hide behind a net of poverty and piousness, but underneath they feed like kings and amass fortunes. So this idea of the Jesuit priests as these false prophets who are here

for profit is obviously a very key part in all of this struggle for power. Well, and not so different from the strivers who are more secular are not associated with the church, You have all these situations where people are fighting outwardly to make their institution more powerful and conveniently to make themselves more powerful. So Tornaga being interested in Blackthorn for a number of reasons, like the ship, the guns, the cannons, sure. His ability to navigate rough seas,

which is not a skill everyone has. And it's not, at least in the book's version of this, They don't have a ton of big ships around. So, like, the Erasmus is so important because it's like the black ship, Erasmus, and, like, one other ship. And that's all that's going on. And so the Erasmus is, like, precious.

Yeah. The history of imperialism, really paying off. Big ship, good pilot. But also the fact that Blackthorn hates the Jesuits, that he snapped the crucifix. And Torinaga is not a Christian, is a key component. in all the power dynamics here.

I want to close with a quote from one of the showrunners, Justin Marks, that he gave to Entertainment Weekly, just sort of about what he thinks the show is about. He says, Toranauga is a political prisoner. Mariko is a prisoner of gender, faith, marriage, her past, and then Blackthorn is a literal prisoner when he shows up on these shores. But all of them then have three very different ways of navigating their plight and finding failure in some cases or empowerment in other cases. So, like, to me, it goes back to that fate.

What's your path forward? Who are your unlikely allies? What is the quality of a person that allows them to emerge from, you know, a snarled political circle like this? And what is – because we asked that question all the time in Thrones, and the answer wasn't necessarily like the most virtuous person, right? No. Like, honor doesn't get you where you need to go in the world of Thrones. but neither does full-blown deceit. And so it's like knowing how to play the game, right?

And so this game that we're watching here, I think Toranauga setting up the trap for the assassin indicates he's plans within plans, within plans. He's 10 steps ahead of everyone all the time, it seems like. And so we'll see how far that takes him. And if that fails him, who knows. But I'm really excited. I love this show so far.

Are you feeling, Rob? This is so much fun. Yeah. Especially as you're alluding to, like if everyone does have two hearts about most things, or three hearts, as Rodriguez puts it, in his great little monologue at the end of episode one. Yeah.

When those things really come into conflict, or one of them is more politically expedient than the other, do these characters go with the one they really believe in or the one that's going to keep them alive or keep them in power? And we're learning character by character who's what? And who really has the backbone for the harder fight for the things they believe in, as opposed to

what's going to put them in the best position for the next move. Yeah, where's your line? Yeah. I think that's brilliant. You mentioned Cosmo Jarvis. Any other performances that you want to call out specifically? You and I are both Hiroyuki Sonata fans. Oh, yes.

He's fantastic. Just like absolutely commands and demands the camera's attention. Anna Sawa, as Mariko, I think is wonderful. Anyone else? I think Tadanabu Asano as Yabushige. Yeah. We mentioned it.

I want to reinforce it. I want to put exclamation points on it. Just the highlight of this show so far for me. It's such a conniving character and he pulls it off with like just a perfect kind of shit-eating grin in a lot of these scenes. Yeah. I wouldn't trust Yabushige with anything except for maybe a good time. He seems like he knows how to have a party.

He's a laugh. He has a laugh. Like, I don't think we see... I need to rewatch another time, but yet another time to make sure. But when he shows up to rescue Blackthorn with his plans within plans, right? Yes. He's got this, like, feathered, like, robe thing that I think is the first time we see it. I'm just sort of like, my man showed up, like, in his binary to do this.

Just looks amazing. And the costumes, I had to tell, are just incredible. Yes. Fitwatch is going to be out of control all season. There's so much in the production of this series that I think is just deeply, deeply admirable, not only just in terms of authenticity. Like, if you watch the behind the scenes featureettes, they had consultants for the gesturing, the walking, like the accuracy of period movement, which is...

Falconry, yes. Look, you got to have a Falconer. You can't just be walking into Falconry all willy-nilly. No. But there's that, and then there's the level of specificity and detail and beauty involved in this kind of costuming and this kind of set design. And this kind of staging in real-life locations. These are not easy things to pull off.

And clearly this is a show that's been in the works for a long, long time from adaptation to writing to the actual production of it that we're seeing on the screen now. But, man, it really looks like it paid off. It's beautiful. There's only, like, a few moments that felt like a little, like, CGI volume-to-to-me, like, when we're pulling into Osaka in the harbor, which is a shame.

I mean, like, you can't recreate feudal Japanese Osaka, but, like, um. Well, not with that attitude, you can't. Not with that TV budget. But it's supposed to be, you know, this moment where he's like, oh, maybe London is a shithole. This is beautiful, right? And I'm like, yeah, it was pretty good. Or there's some stuff like on the ships where you're like volumey a little bit.

But overall, you know. It looks like a big ship on a soundstage sometimes. Yeah. But it is a big ship. Like, it is an actual practical ship set that they have constructed. And things like that help help me get past. of the background CGI or the framing. One of them was conveniently when it's like Tornaaga

and his crew are rolling into the castle for the first time and you see Ashito and some of the others like perched up on top watching as they come in. And it's like, these dudes are clearly just on like a platform in front of a green screen. But the fact that there's like one or two of those moments in two episodes that are over an hour long with this level of design.

Totally. I'm thrilled with that result. I want to last but not least, shout out my guy, Nestor Carbonell, who shows up as Rodriguez with a great big bushy beard and a thick accent. I mentioned to you that when I rewatch it again this morning, we're recording this on Tuesday, our screeners don't have closed captioning. So it has the Japanese subtitles, but doesn't have close captioning. I'm like, I really need subtitles on my guy, Nestor. And I got them on when I watched it on Hulu this morning. so that was helpful to me.

But I think he's, I didn't know, I didn't remember that he was in this, and when he showed up, I just got so excited. I love him. So he's wonderful. Total scene stealer. I took it as just an inversion

of the previous miniseries dynamic you mentioned before. The Japanese characters didn't have subtitles. In this case, I am one of the Japanese characters, and I have no idea what Rodriguez is saying, 80% of the time. But he communicates a lot with his energy,

and that beard is doing a lot of the acting for him. Oh, the beard is wonderful. All right. Well, that is episode one and two of Shogun. As we mentioned, top knots and manbuns at gmail.com. If you have observations that you feel like we glossed or details in my definitely professionally researched historical lessons that I missed,

yeah, email us. We love to hear all your thoughts. I'm really hoping, and I mentioned this in the preview, really hoping people tune in and stick with the show. I know that a lot of people, the way that they watch TV today is that they second screen, and it is hard to do that when

the majority of the dialogue is Japanese. You and I love a subtitle, so I don't think we're daunted by it. I just know how people tend to like sort of casually watch TV. This is going to require absolute focus and attention, and I think

it deserves absolute focus and attention. I think a lot of TV does that doesn't get it, but like this show demands that in order for you to even understand what's going on. And so hopefully we can be helpful and additive, but also hopefully people put their phones down and just lean in and watch this on the biggest screen as possible. You can. I would love that. Join us for the ride. Anything else you want to say, Rob? Just that it's a fascinating bet from that perspective. Yeah. In terms of if you want to make a show

an event, I agree, there's going to be some viewers who just can't handle the multitasking that they want to do in their lives while watching Shogun at the same time. It's just not going to work for them. But if you want to incentivize people to sit in front of their screen and really pay attention and really make this thing you're planning your week around when this episode comes out, make it something that they have to really, really watch.

And some of that is the language. Some of it is the density of the plotting. Some of it is the breadth of this cast where even as you and I are podcasting about it after multiple rewatches, we're trying to trace family trees and understand lineages and understand alliances. This is a show that's going to have that kind of complexity in its story.

And history tells us if you do that kind of thing well, it satisfies in a way that almost no other story can. And so I don't know enough about the background of where this book and where this narrative goes. I don't have the background in that that you do, Joe, but like, I am, I cannot wait to see how this thing unfolds. I cannot wait to start flipping characters around in terms of who's siding with whom, in terms of who makes sense with whom, who's actually doing good versus who is, you know, doing whatever it is that's, like, politically expedient. I can't wait to get to know these characters. I am really excited. This is an audio podcast. It's not a video podcast. So, you know, hopefully you guys know

roughly what Rob Mahoney looks like. And I want you to imagine his face and then imagine the shock and horror that crossed his face when I told him last week that people watched Squid Game dubbed and not subtitles. And Rob was like, what? They did what? I'm like, oh yeah, plenty of people did. Anyway, I had no idea. I didn't even know that was an option. Yeah. Well, better to not know and just enjoy it as it's meant to be enjoyed. So yeah, anyway, enjoy show. We'll be back next week to talk about episode three. Thanks to Kai Grady, a goat, a producer. We love him.

And we'll see you next time. Bye.