The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Slow Horses’ Season 4, Episode 2 With Gary Oldman!

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

Jo and Rob grab their forged passports to recap the second episode of ‘Slow Horses’ Season 4. They run through a handful of listener emails before discussing how River faked his death, why Catherine Standish is one of the smartest characters across the entire show, and the brief introduction of Hugo Weaving’s character (2:40). Along the way, they introduce a brand-new segment called Lamb Shank of the Week (38:38). Later, they’re joined by Emmy-nominated star Gary Oldman to talk about how he landed on the look for Jackson Lamb, his unique relationship with the character, reuniting with Kristin Scott Thomas, and much more (48:24). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Guest: Gary Oldman Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit your local delixte. today, discover the craftsmanship behind every bite, Boershead, committed to craft since 1905. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson. I am Rob Mahoney. We're here. We're back. During a couple

episodes of Prestige this week, you will also cure tomorrow, I believe, our coverage of the Apple TV Plus show Bad Monkey. So misbehaving monkeys and lethargic horses.

is what we're covering here. And chimps on the feed, too. It's really quite the ecosystem we're building. Yeah, some chimp craziness also happening on the feed. So that's, I mean, there's a lot going on on the feed. You'll hear from a variety of hosts. But we are covering slow horses week to week. That is like sort of what we're doing for the foreseeable.

You can email us. We have a special email for this. Like, just in case you didn't hear our last couple slow horses podcast. Rob, if folks want to get in touch with us, where can they find us? I'm so glad you asked Joe. They need to email us specifically at Ars Time the Pope. That's A-R-S-E-Time the Pope at g-mail.com. And the email's been pouring in. I've been very pleased with the depth of offerings from listeners and also the diversity of takes that are being offered. So thank you for everyone who's been hitting us up. Yeah. It's a really fun, like, group who are emailing in so far for this podcast. We'll get to some of those as we go. Also, a very special guest. podcast today? Yeah, what's going on today?

I heard tell that there was something a little different happening. Yeah, I don't know if you could like smell it from where you're sitting, but no, the man himself does not smell any kind of way

it's Gary Oldman. Gary Oldman is here. I'm sure he actually smells delightful. We talked him over Zoom, so we have no way of knowing, but I'm sure he smelled absolutely expensive and delightful and clever. Yes.

As opposed to Jackson Lamb, who just looks like he reeks all the time. So yeah, Gary Olme, you'll hear us chat with Gary Olman, Jackson Lamb himself, at the end of, of this podcast episode. About a show that he loves, that we love.

I think slow horses just bringing us all together at the end of the day. I love it. So we're here to talk about A Stranger Comes to Town. That's the second episode. We are not reading the book. So we did get emails from a couple book readers,

which was kind of fun for me. And so we have some context. No one has spoiled us so far. Thank you. Providing context here and there from the book readers. But we don't know what happens in this season. We haven't read the book, so we are not going to be spoiling anything. We might have some guesses or speculation based on some of the things we see in this episode.

And this episode was written by Will Smith, the creator of the show, and directed by Adam Randall, who's the series director directing all the episodes this season. So I like to always say who wrote and directed the episode, but I think for this season it's going to be a lot of Will Smith-Sish slash Adam Randall. So that's where we are. I want to actually start. Gary, Gary touches on this in the interview, but I thought it would give us the actual words. One of our listeners, Allison, just wanted everyone to hear the initial physical description of Jackson Lamb in the McCarran books, I think, from Rivers perspective. So Allison wrote, quote, that stomach, the unshaved jowls, the hair, a dirty blonde, slick combed from a high forehead, which broke into a curl as it touched his collar, made him a ringer. River Thought for Jackball staff, a role Timothy Spall should consider.

So, and I think earlier Timothy Spall, the actor Timothy Spall gone to seed is sort of the description there. So, yeah, Rob asked Gary about sort of the look of Jackson Lane. We'll hear about that later, but I liked this description. I do like it. I am a little bummed. I was secretly hoping all these years that someone would use the unshaved jowls to describe me.

but I guess we still have time but he beat me to it. That's really the important thing here. I don't know. I don't know if you're ever someone who's going to jowl, but if you do, I think you're like 30 years off from a respectable jowl at least. Something to aspire to. Okay. Keep on keeping up, Rob. Okay.

But while we're at the top of things, I have a question for you, Joe. A favorite game of ours investigating and interrogating the title of these episodes. A stranger comes to town. Of course. The stranger is the titular role. But who is the stranger? Who do you think the stranger is in reference here. Oh my God, I'm so glad you're asking me that question. My thought was River is the stranger who comes to Levant. I think that's like the easiest interpretation.

Who else is on your list? I mean, I think we get our first Hugo weaving appearance showing up as this sort of unnamed operative who clearly isn't from around here, as his put on American accent, I'll tell you. But it also could be either of our two passport gentlemen. You know, we have Adam Lockhead, with whatever larger conspiracy he's a part of, still kind of a stranger to us. And Robert Winter slash Winters, whatever ghost identity that MI5 has cooked

up, who, like, is that, to what extent is that a person that we can know? Yeah, so we'll get into sort of like that idea of the cold body identity for sure. But what we do learn in this episode, via photograph, right, is that we see a photograph that River picks up in the house

that he's exploring in Liz Alb. And he's, it's, Hugo weaving and three young men, one of whom bears a strong resemblance, I suppose, to River Cartwright. We got to talk about the strong resemblance, quote-unquote, happening with all this, but there's time. I just generally can't tell if they put Jack Loudon in a wig and just had him, like, lay in a odd angle in the bathtub.

Did they? I don't know. I actually, like, couldn't. It was tough, stuff to tell. So it's three young men. And so two of them, we already have the pseudonyms. for, right? It's Adam Lockhead and Robert Winters.

So that's, you know, the, the bomber and the guy who tried to kill David Cart, right? Yes. But then we also have the French names for, we have the French name for the third guy, Patrice. We meet him in this episode as he sort of ambles up to David's house to say, like, what's all this then, but in a French accent? And then Patrice, so Bertrand is the name of the actual. name of the guy who has a passing resemblance to Ricard and had his face blown off in a bathtub. So Patrice and Bertrand are two of the guys. And then the third guy, Robert Winters, who's French name we

don't know yet. It's Pierre. I can tell you right now. Probably Marcel, something like that. Marcel would be good. I could go with Marcel. But yeah, these are, in my notes, I have this under the umbrella term of Project Treadstone, which is a born identity. It's giving Project Treadstone to me. So that's where you are. We need one of these photos at the ringer of all of us standing triumphantly around, like, the building. I mean, yes, honestly, it's like Bill in a chair so that we can all look back 40 years from now in a, you know, colored out photograph. Yeah. And see our younger selves.

Like, oh, look at this murderer's row here. Oh, look at that person bears a passing resemblance to River Cartwright. How odd. Two other things, two other emails before we sort of kind of go beep by beat in the episode. a bit. Lance wrote in to say we were asking about the backstory of Jackson Lamb and Rob pointed out that we got some illusions. And even in the side of this episode, right, when he's talking, when Jackson Lamb is talking

about working for David, Catherine says, have a heart. And he's like, I did before I work for him. Right. So that feeds into what Rob was pointing out in terms of Jackson, basically losing his stomach for the spy professions by craft. But in the latest McHaron book Secret Hours, no spoilers, there's backstory for Lamb and others. So if you, it's out there and available to people who want to read it, McHarran has written it into a book. So maybe that's a future season of slow horses.

Maybe we get flashback, more flashback Jackson Lamb. That might be fun. And the last but not least, and I just want to make sure that you wrote this down or anyone who's listening wrote this down. Rob professed a delight in the French rap that we heard. in episode one. So our listener, Nick, wrote in with the recommendation for an artist Bubba, is some French rap.

B-O-O-O-B-A, recommended by Nick. And Arstime, the Pope at Gmail.com, if you have other French rap that you would like to recommend for Rob or anyone listening. Actually, people have been really hitting me up with the French rap recommendations. I very much appreciate it. Like, I am days away from my Spotify algorithm

being completely warped by French rap. I'm going to get, like, Parisian trip-hop afternoon day list, any moment now. So I'm very excited about this development. Oh, excellent. I love this for you. Okay. And one of the thing I want to talk about before we sort of get into everything is there was an interview with Robert Frost who is not the poet, but the editor for this season of television. We do need to clarify. Definitely not the poet. And he was talking about sort of some of the tricks and trades of editing slow horses. And there was one call out he had from episode one that I just thought worth sort of noting. it's when they show Jackson Lamb himself

looking at the body of the blown-off face that once bore passing Rosamplice to River Cart, right? And you and I were wondering, like, when was it that Jackson Lamb, like, knew that that wasn't River? We were sort of scrutinizing that reaction that moment. And this is what Frost, the editor of the show said, quote, and in one particularly powerful take, Gary Olman gives just a flicker of vulnerability, almost letting Lamb's facade slip.

And then he, end quote. And then he goes on to say they had a lot of discussions about whether or not to include that. He says, if showing lamb, letting his guard down made sense within the larger story. So I like this. I mean, this is something that we have and haven't talked about, this idea of like, how much is Lamb performing? There is this, like, strong, I don't give a fuck. I say whatever I want from Lamb, but there's also. carefully deployed, you know,

farts among other things that are meant to, like, you know, put people off their guard or whatever it is. So, like, how much is Lamb performing in his day-to-day, this character of Jackson Lamb? And how much does he actually care about his Joe's in a way that he doesn't show outwardly, you know? And who can wound him in that way? You know, like, clearly he is the kind of relationship with River,

with Catherine Standish, that those are people who can get under his skin a little bit. And in this episode, I think we get a hint of that, as you mentioned, Joe, with David Cartwright as well, an allusion to their past, the toll of working on him. And I think probably the first time in the whole show that we've seen Lamb be kind of off his game. Or he almost thinks that David is playing up the dementia and like putting on a bit. On a rewatch, I think he is because... Really? David...

Well, no, not entirely. Obviously, not entirely. But when he's doing the lavender blue dilly-dilly bit and... Jackson so piss at him. Still got it. David mutters to himself still got it. Do you think he's saying still got it about his singing ability? I kind of thought so.

I thought it was about his ability to sort of like fuck with Jackson Lamb in that moment. That's what that was, that's what I thought that meant. I read this more as, you know, obviously River and his grandfather are in close contact all the time or more or less all the time. And as viewers, we have seen David slip further and further over the course of the show. I'm presuming based on the dialogue, these two people haven't seen each other in years. Like Lamb and David Cartwright are not on Christmas card lists with each other.

Possibly not since that scene we saw with them in the car after Charles, you know? For sure. And so I read it more as like, he's just assuming that this person is going to be the same as the last time I left them, when in fact, doesn't really have a resemblance

to that old version of David Cartwright anymore. And that's possible. I think based on some things we see in here, there's stuff David is still, holding back. Like he's not... That has to be true. Right.

Okay. We're going to start with David and River, but I do want to shout out something I think is interesting in this episode, which is that the contrast between Lam and Catherine Standish and Lam and Moira, who's like the new Standish, I like having those contrasts within the episode. We'll talk to them about them individually, but just I like that those were paired inside of an episode so you can see. It tells us even more about Catherine and Jackson Lamb to see, like,

Moira in that role now. Okay, so let's start with David and River. What do you want to say about this exchange? We sort of like run the tape back and see what went on between the two of them after the gunshot and before River disappears, fucks off to France. So what was your takeaway from this interaction? I don't think it expanded our understanding of the scene too much, and maybe that was just what we had already kind of drawn into it and assumed it happened.

But I will say, ask me something only I would know is a pretty, dangerous game to play with a dude who can't keep his clubhouse dues straight? He gets one date wrong and you're gone. Yes, but I love what we get here. I met my KTV counterpart in Berlin, Chris's Day, in 1982, and we had too much a drink. What did I do with him? You had a snowball fight. So David Cartwright Spy Prequel series, when?

Can we get the like Mythic Quest style one episode deep flashback spin off of just like this spy meet cute and snowball fight? Rob, have we talked about Mythic Quest? I don't think so. I think you and I are the only people who watch it, and I love that for us. Well, maybe we can bring that to prestige listeners soon enough. Or at least like that one episode they do every season where you're like, art? Those episodes are quite good.

The rest is some mixed bag. Yes, up and down, up and down. Okay. Why is there a spy who bears a passing resemblance to River Cart, right? Rob Mahoney? What do you think? Okay, first of all, River himself says that this is a, quote, near identical lookalike.

I just don't see... Am I crazy for not seeing this? He just looked like too vaguely British slash Scottish slash greater UK gentlemen. I really think it's the angle.

He's so slumped that it just sort of like really changes the jaw line and like everything like that and I think, and shaved. Yes. Is that the reason

River has a beard this season do you think to draw that clear line? That they shaved him, put him in this darker wig, and then slumped him. And I think, I don't know, I paused and was sort of pouring over it. And surely, I'll look around. Surely someone has given an interview about whether or not that's actually Jack Loudon in a wig or not.

But I think, and I think the photo also feels like, I don't know, they're just like superimposing Jack Loudoun's face on someone else's face. It's an eerie effect. Anyway, what did you want to say about that? I think the point is, and the effect is the same, which is clearly he's using this as his cover. the mechanism is the same as we saw in the first episode. I think what sticks out to me from this whole exchange is the sudden reorientation after David Cartwright pushes the button to call the police, basically.

And like, okay, now we are on the clock. We have to get the story straight very quickly. And for Jack Loudon, I think the combination of like exasperation and heartbreak when David says that he's his father. Like, I think that's just a perfectly played moment. So, so good. Don't talk to me like that. I'm your father.

I mean, he's talking. about the way in which David raised him. We don't know a ton about his parents. We know that Louisa called his mom. We get that in this episode. We don't know a ton about exactly how much David has a right to think of himself as his father. Sure. You know, but also, in the vein of, like, is he hiding behind his dementia?

I think when he says Levant doesn't ring any bells. And also, I feel like he gets a bit flustered when he hears him. here's the name Adam Lockhead. That's my interpret. And that's when he sort of cuts everything off and calls the police. So, like, I do think that David is obviously losing grip of his faculties. But I think inside of that, there's also the attempt to hide things and hold things back from River and everyone else. And that would certainly play into what we understand in this world with spies of a certain caliber.

Like, Jackson Lamb knows how to use your preconceptions of him against you. And David Cartwright, obviously. obviously would too, even though his circumstances now are changed. And then this is like, this is just an iconic river cart rate. I can fix this. Only I can fix this. The most terrifying line in television. I got this.

Don't worry. At least it's like so personally motivated this time versus like usually him just thinking he is like the smartest, fastest runningest guy in the room. This is like, I can't expose you to the machinations of the park or anything like that. Like, I have to fix this now without any help because we can't involve other people because you are a vulnerable person right now. Sure.

But then we also have to agree with Jackson later when he's like rushing off to play the hero again. Again, that is exactly what he's doing, right? And to put one more thing in your file about if David is playing up his dementia a little bit. Yeah. He even kind of hands over the reins to River, very ceremony. He's like, oh, it's your up.

It's your decision. Like, I'm following your lead now. And he's created some urgency by pressing the button. Yes. But he also would know better than anybody how to get River literally off and running. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terseptite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea,

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Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or The Hilton. Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. All right. So then let's talk about the second part with David, which is Catherine and Jackson Lamb. We didn't get a chance to talk to Gary about this, but I was talking to a friend of mine who is a book reader, again, like didn't give me any sort of book reader information beyond saying that it's even clear in the books than it is in the show

that Catherine Sandish is actually the smartest person in the room. Like as smart as Jackson Lamb, if not actually smarter. And, you know, we've been going sort of perseverating over this idea of, like, why is she so important to Jackson? And if she's, like, the one person who can keep up with him, that might be part of the larger package that also involves his guilt over Charles and all of that other stuff. I think we saw that a bit, like, in that chess playing scene, which we discussed in season two. But in this, inside of this episode, when he says to Catherine, so where's he gone?

and she says, I didn't ask you to tell me, and then Jackson says, that doesn't mean you don't know. That, to me, is like, game-recognized game, I know you did what I would have done, so tell me what you know. Take a little snoop through the pockets.

I really liked that. I liked that a lot, so. Especially because I think that interpretation, that action goes against what some of standish's, like, impression has been so far, which is, like, she's someone who, like, stands on manners and ceremony

and is generally kinder to people, I would say outwardly than the other spies. The idea that she's like rooting through Rivers Pockets is not necessarily something you would expect of Catherine Standish season one, episode one, but after all of this time, kind of gradually getting integrated into actually solving and running these ops,

it is something she would do and that she would know to do. And I would say even by the end of season one, when like the rest of Sell House is sitting around in the cafe, sort of there's nothing we can do, and she's just like up and on the phone and like doing things and having ideas. So I think that's always been there, but I do think similar to what you're saying about David and what we're saying about Jackson is there's sort of like the preconceived notions you have about someone that Catherine can hide behind this like former alcoholic, like woman of a certain age, dresses in a slightly drab fashion sort of persona that there's like a really keen sharp mind at play there. Anything else you want to say about this? The only other thing I have written down here is the lavender blue dilly dilly, which we all right to talk to about.

Which I learned... A great song. I learned from a little Googling that it apparently appeared on the soundtrack for Disney's live action Cinderella in 2015, a movie that definitely exists and we all saw and absolutely happened.

Lavender Blue Dilly Dilly is like an old Disney song. I mean, actually... Like a folk song. I think it's a folk song, right? But like, I had it on like one of those like Disney classics collection CD. And so I am actually not even... Is it like...

It might even... It might be... It's like something that I didn't watch... It's in the vault somewhere. Yeah, something I didn't watch a lot, but I know that song backwards and forth because it was on a like compilation CD I had. I will say this.

If David Cartwright is saying still got it about his tunefulness on that particular melody, I would say I'm not so sure. I think it crushed it. I support him. It's not about the tone. It's not about hitting the notes. It's about the general energy and the vibe he's bringing to it.

Yeah. Great, great, great. Let's go over the park and talk about Diana Tavner, Claude Whalen, and Gidey Rahman, a new character for us, and then, of course, Emma Flight is also here.

I want to say off the top about Gittie, like a little credulous for an MI5 operative, at least appears to be. Credulous and also smug. Like, the way that she's treating when she's telling Emma. For the tea. And, you know, and like getting all quiet on the phone,

like this is classified, you don't get to hear this. Yeah. a top member of the security team. Yeah, she's a really fascinating, like, cocktail of a character. Because she's, yeah, she's got that sort of like bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, as you say, too credulous to have gotten, risen as far as she's risen in the spy world. But also that, yeah, that just sort of like, maybe it's like credulity combined with

her thinking I'm the smartest person in the room. So, of course, this is how Diana Tavanaugh would react. They put me in this room. This is so important what I'm doing. She does seem like real slough house material. I'll put it that way. The amount of screen time and also the degree to which she's kind of stepping into the first trap laid in front of her, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up looped in with our cast in some way.

28 years ago was the timeline she gave us. And I have some questions about that. Because when Diana talks about, and maybe I'm misunderstanding something, Rastime to Pope at gmail.com. But, like, Diana's talking about this idea of the cold body identity, you know, that these are documents that are not forgeries. They're actually created by the intelligence service to give people cover. But she says, from the tail end of the Cold War, which if I'm doing my math correctly is a lot longer ago than 28 years ago. So I don't, I don't, I feel like I'm missing something in the time.

line. It's a long tail on the Cold War, apparently. I mean, fair enough, fair enough. It might still be going on. Who's to say? The way that Flight, our new head dog, hates Geetty and hates the assignment of babysitting Giti is pretty delightful. I mean, the eggs look solid.

She's not doing a bad job. No. This is an email we got from our listener, Dan, another book creator, right? Who says, Emma Flight is supposed to look like a model, which makes the way Lamb acts around her even better, since you just. guys would typically be on their best behavior around her. Also, she's a cop and not a long-time dog who got a new job. Well, Diana Tavener is an MI5 lifer. Claude Whelan is a bureaucrat. We get confirmation of that in this episode. So isn't as respected, but based on his personality

traits, he probably also pushed for flight to get her job. So this idea that Emma Flight, I mean, I hate this implication, but this idea that Emma Flight has her job because Claude Whelan thinks she's hot is maybe sort of something from the text that we're slightly missing here. there was that exchange between Diana and Claude in episode one about like, you know, I know she wasn't your choice. And Diana was like, actually I picked her. I don't know what you're talking about. We got a similar exchange on the bus here about sort of whether or not Diana actually wanted the job that Claude wound up getting.

Before we go on the bus, though, let's talk about Claude practicing his speech and everything you feel about what James Callis is doing in this role, etc., etc. What a beautiful buffoon. Just a glorious buffoon. And I hope that no one ever looks at me the way that Diana Tavernor is. looking at Claude as he practices his speech. That's just the most withering thing I've ever seen. I wrote dripping with disdain. Dripping might be too white.

She is not trying to hide it. Distain tsunami. I mean, Kristen Scott Thomas has been incredible all throughout, but she has just given such, like, fun food to play with in these scenes with him. The way she's working him in this scene, right? She keeps saying, I understand. And he goes, are you in agreement?

the way that she can barely contain the eye rolls, but she's trying to mask it in this smile as she's duping him into signing a document that's going to implicate him in a cover-up that she's orchestrating. And wisely slips the condolence letters on top. Yes.

And I love, if you have time to revisit this episode and watch Kristen Scott Thomas's facial expressions and her comportment specifically as he's signing and, like, you know, the way she's eyeing the page, the way she's like trying to hold his attention to distract him and keep him engaged so he's not fully paying attention to what he's putting his name to. Beautiful stuff.

It's so good. Yeah, at one point he stopped signing and she sort of like taps the paper. Yeah, she turns the page. We got a couple more here. So good. But here's the... We get the information about the cold body identity, which is something we can think about

and we think about all of these Bertrands and Patrice's with their very English documents that they have. But then also this exchange about the job, right? He's like, are you doing this? Because I got the job and you didn't.

And the way she says, I didn't apply for it. Didn't even want to be considered. It's maybe my favorite thing I've ever seen from Kristen's Scott Thomas. She's like, looking at the window, she's so pissed while trying to sound nonchalant. And then she says, and yet here I am doing it anyway, which we cannot possibly deny,

given all the things that, you know, he's asked of her just within inside two different episodes. Including like going to meetings for him and making phone calls for him and holding his hand through every little thing. This is such a great character and Claude that we haven't really had in Slow Horses yet, this sort of completely empty suit bureaucrat who fancies himself as like, this felt very Silicon Valley to me, Jonathan, if it hit those notes for you, like the big picture visionary thinker who's supposed to come in and shape everything up and restructure and iron out like the internal identity of the company or in this case the

agency, very familiar in all walks of life and just like the perfect empty vessel for Diana Tavernor to like puppeteer. And I mean, and we just have to admire that like within one episode, just a few scenes, she has implicated him. Oh yeah. And made the power structure very clear, very clear what's happening here. Completely ensnared him. I love all of that. But yeah, he's like, I don't know if you could tell. Never been on an active assignment before. We're getting on a bus out thrilling. I'm not sure he's been on public transit before, to be honest with you. Exactly. He's like, how do we pay for this? He is not only an empty suit, but I would also say, I would call this a weaponized incompetence,

right? Like, he's also just saying, like, well, you know, I've got you doing so much better than I would. Why isn't you? You're so good with the day-to-day, you know, I would hate to get in your way with that. Yeah. But what she says, as she moves to walk off the bus, when she says there isn't a big picture running an intelligence agency is just putting out fires every bloody day. In that sense, I feel like the person who would most agree with her or most be inclined to say a version of that is a Jackson Lamb. You know, like we talked already about how much, despite how outwardly they are opposites, how inwardly there are many ways in which they are exactly the same. And this is, I think, a really good example of that. I think this is one of those

things where there are a lot of high-minded ideas about how intelligence agencies should work and a lot of very practical realities that govern the way they actually do. Things like accountability and transparency are just not 100% feasible in these worlds. And you're right. That is where even spies who would seem to be on the other end of the spectrum in so many other ways are kind of aligned. And the people who have been in that shit together really understand. It's very fair in the first couple of seasons to laugh and enjoy and maybe even turn your

knows up a little bit at the way Diana Tavernor like scurries under the nearest cover like a cockroach sometimes. Like she knows how to protect herself. But she also knows that you can't just like, as she puts it like be self-flagellating in front of the public because you weren't in front of the every single thing you're supposed to prevent. Like that would be counterproductive to actually solving these things in the long run. And I like, you know, we talk about the ways in which these seasons feel a standalone and the way in which they feel connected. You know, there are ways in which you can just dip in to any given season without having watched previous season. I think you can sort of grok what's going on. But there's also carryovers like Louisa morning Min Harper's death

into the next season or whatever it is. And I think this idea of like this in the wake of what happened in Istanbul and how that informs, you know, what to cover up and what to not, or how a person like Claude could land, you know, in the chair that Sophia Okanato's character was. And you know what I mean? Like all of that feels like a threat of continuity. Yes. Which is a bit unusual for slow horses, but I really like. I like that it's not, you know, some minor character from season three pops back up just for

the sake of having that continuity. And instead, what you're describing is like using season three as a way to raise the stakes and raise the pressure that these characters are under. Like now they are under a different level of scrutiny and a different organizational structure because of how badly things blew up in season three. Let's go to Levant. Let's go to France together. Here's what I, this is actually my favorite thing about this episode.

I am pretty sure. I did not dig into this. I have no actual confirmation. I'm pretty sure Jack Loudon is like perfectly fluid in French. And I think he is trying really hard to give us what I would call halting French. Because his accent is perfect, but he's just like stumbling over like. words and phrasing to my ear, but Arcemeopogema,com, if you're like,

no, that's not at all correct. But that's what seems like to me. He feels like, and Jack Loudon feels like a guy who would be probably fluent in French. So I just like that he's giving us this like attempted shitty French from a... Not quite send cart right, is what you're saying.

Exactly. Not quite. I love that. But I like, again, in the spies are just like us category. You know, he's stumbling through the exchange with the cab driver. He's asking for directions on the street and getting snubbed. I would at least have stuck around to like finish the cafe LA, but that's, that's me. Clearly, he's got things to do. I like that he apologizes for being British. But the reaction to him from people are kind of, I can't tell if it's like meant to give an unfriendly provincial French town or if there is a specific

reaction to him because I don't know if you've heard many bears a passing resemblance to a guy. who was there before. People are crossing the street. Dogs are barking at him. Like, is this a reaction to the guy who looks like him? Or is this just you look like a British person and we don't really want to have anything to do with you? I took it initially as French-coded, but I think you might be right. In a world where he can go up to a random barista and be like, you know the guy who looks like me and they know exactly who you're talking about and where they live?

Yeah. There's a reputation here. Exactly. And then to like hop ahead to sort of our guy, Patrice, linger around David's house, pretending to be just a confused, you know, happy, go lucky neighbor, calls to Hugo Weaving on the phone and we get the introduction of Hugo Weaving's Mr. Anderson American accent. It's back.

I'm so happy it's back. I love Hugo Weaving. Like, he is one of my top tier of all time. I just love him. His American accent has never been, like, top tier. But then it almost becomes a thing unto itself. Yeah. That it doesn't, like, bug me is just, like, part of the whole mystique of this character.

And, you know, in the Matrix, like, something an AI would concoct, sure. And here's something like what's clearly a spy or someone who is spy adjacent. Right. I'm totally fine with, I'm fine with him using. it as a bit of characterization to make him feel off. And he feels very menacing right off the bat even before he starts sneaking around

and trying to stab people. Yeah, we're starting fires. Our guy Patrice has another assignment and they lay it on pretty thick in the direction of Jackson Lamb which makes me think that it's a misdirect right? But he says, another old man,

he can't, you know, surely he won't be smarter than David Cartwright was but he worked for David Cartwright for a long time. It's been a long time. He might not even know why he has to die, all this sort of stuff. So is our guy Patrice here going after Jackson Lamb next? Or is there some, I can't think of another old guy in the cast that we know that could be a candidate, you know? I think in the opening scenes of episode three, we're going to need another dusty old photograph with Jackson Lamb and David Cartwright at another guy relatively their age, another beloved character

actor coming in for a little one shot. Maybe Timothy Spall himself, who's to say? Let's go. I would love to see it. We got an email from a listener, Larry, and I'm going to read it out in a bit, a part of it in a bit about how River is both a good and a bad spy at old times. And I think that's true. I'm curious as he moves through Les Al here, it is like picking up bullet casings and all

and stuff like that. Do you have a favorite spy move or a good move or a bad move? I will say this. I liked checking the heat on the teapot. That was good. That I thought was a good move. Anything that you want to call out from this river? For me, it's way too loudly breaking the window to bust in in the first place,

which also for me very much reminds me of gosling slitting his arm open and the nice guys doing this exact maneuver. But it really doesn't take a lot to remind me of the nice guys. So it's a flattering comparison. Nice guys. Perfect movie that no one talks about. Okay. This is what Larry wrote. River is both a great and a terrible spy.

He quickly locates the base of operations, but he's just strolling through a military trading course with bullet casings lying around. Hmm, what's up with this? I don't know. Breaking the window and stomping around on the broken glass. Hasn't he seen Mission Impossible. He doesn't check his corners entering rooms.

Hasn't he seen Silence of the Lambs. I'll give him a pass for not catching Hugo weaving, walking behind him because Hugo is probably a super spy. You can walk silently unlike River. Any connection. And then this is, Larry follows up by saying, any connection between the big mural having a huge fire in the distance and Hugo weaving setting fire to the mansion.

Maybe it's his go-to move. Like, the scene of the mural is a seminal event in his life, and he's big into burning things since that time. Anything you want to say on murals or spycraft or anything else, Rob Mahoney? Yeah, as far as the spy craft goes, I would describe the way that River is navigating here as a Min Harper level of discretion.

Oh, no. Just in broad daylight, Not trying to hide or conceal his presence whatsoever, basically. Yeah. And yeah, like probably could be moving with a little more urgency or a little more curiosity. One of the two. He's kind of in this weird middle ground where he's picking up some clues but probably not enough of them. We have to come back to the mural at some point.

It's too notable. He took a photo of it. And look, Joe, you and I, we are right back to creepy kids drawings after true detective. No severed fingies here, but a lot of dotted line bullets and open gunshot wounds. I wrote finkies in my notes How could you not? Look at the drawings. Yeah, exactly.

So something we will definitely be coming back to for sure. Rivers out, I'm sorry, I'm still thinking about you saying sand car, right? Rivers out of the frying pan into the fire, right? Some guys rescued him, but then also knocked him out, a mysterious guy in a car. We don't know what's going on there. So to be continued. And then let's end with Slauhaus.

That's sort of our last check-in here. We get your faves, Marcus and Shirley, have an exchange about Marcus pawning his gun, Marcus gambling again. What do you want to say about this? Well, I'll say my fave singular, which is to say I really enjoy Shirley. Marcus's only real personality trait at this point is that he continues to gamble. Although I think we could add misplaced aggression to that list. He's really rounding out the resume. Full-proof plan for Marcus, sell the gun, use the money to bet on a sure thing, clear his debts, buy back the gun. What could possibly go wrong?

I can't think of a single thing. So, yeah, your fave, I did love when your fave Shirley was like, I pissed in it about his tea when she's mad at him. She also had a great little retort when Roddy describes himself as a Westaker's survivor in this episode, to which he replies, unfortunately. Great shit from Shirley now and always. Also, when Marcus is, she brings Marcus a tea and he's like, did you not make him one talking about the new member of the team

who's the character is J.K. played by the great Tom Brooke. Thus far, a lot of skulking, menacing, hoodie work. What is this new character bringing to the team for you from? He hasn't brought a lot to the table, but I will say, Joe, this week, he has brought the lamb shank of the week for me. It's the same one for me. So go ahead, read it.

When he finally does speak up to clarify the whole mess around River being dead slash identifying River's body, which I will say, trying to wiggle out of that is some bullshit, but maybe that's why I'm not a spy. Lamb's response being, oh, fuck me, did someone fart? I heard a squeak, but I can't smell anything. Beautiful stuff. A plus, no notes.

This will be a recurring bet on the show. We will be doing Lambshake of the week. We won't necessarily pick the same one, but this week we did. I don't think there are any other good candidate, or comparable candidates this week. But when Marcus asks, Shirley, did you not make him one?

break the eyes. She's like, I like the eyes. She's like, that guy is creepy. I don't want anything to do with him. So I have some questions about how this new character will integrate it to the team. We also have some more integration from Moira, right? That Jackson takes her out for lunch. And I really loved this because, like, on the one hand, he tells Marcus and Charlie, please mess my office back up. I can't, I can't operate. He's physically ill. I can't operate at the experience of being in it. I don't know how they will sort of reintroduce all the dust that surely Moira dust busted out of there,

but they will do their best to fuck it up. But this is Jackson Lamb recruiting an asset essentially, is what we see. 100%. He's whining and dining, Harry. Tell me your reaction. I mean, this is where you see the biggest contrast with Catherine and Moyer, where he takes Moira to a restaurant he would never go to. We know Lamb well enough to know that.

And he immediately identifies the fact that she sees herself as being above Sloughhouse and then just moves to leverage it as quickly as possible. And in a way where I'm not even sure that she fully recognized that she's being leveraged. You know, like for her, it is a means to an end to get back to the place and the level of work that she thinks she's worthy of back at the park. And for Lamb, you're absolutely right. Like, he's turning her into an asset right off the bat. He says, I'll find out why you were sent to me and then you can fuck off back to the park.

And in return, I want you to call your friends on the database and tell me when and why David Cartwright went to France at any point of his illustrious career. So that brings us back to Jackson Lamb, absolutely not believing that David Cartwright doesn't know anything about Levant, about, you know. He has Roddy to look into Levant to learn everything he can about the town, which, I mean, based on my cursor researching, is fictional in the real world. Oh, I love that you looked it up.

You got to check. I'm trying to find out about Levant. I'm trying to figure out the hot spots because clearly the locals are not going to point you in the direction of anything. There is a own cafe, and it is not a Starbucks, and that's all you got. Speaking of Roddy, this is the last email I've got for us this week. No, we've got two more emails this week. Ducklin Rodin, calling out the Thursday Murder Club as another sort of series that they enjoy. And it says, in one of the stories, the characters catfished essentially by a foreign bride, which ends up being part of a broader spy plot.

So I'm calling it now. Roddy's being worked. There are only so many stories you can have in the spy world. So we're back to Roddy's online girlfriend. Is she from Canada? Is she real? Is she actually Hugo weaving what's happening with Roddy's girlfriend? We're just going to keep our eye on it.

I just want to see the Photoshop from his dating profile of Ripped Rottie. That's what I want to see. Rip Rottie Ho. Okay. Last email. This is a deadly serious email before we get to our interview with Gary Olman. A listener who did not sign their name but said they were from Barbados. So that's exciting to me.

Said basically in a previous season that Duffy, or erstwhile head of the dogs Quote Duffy is holding a chocolate and caramel equivalent of crack, a tonnex wafer. Here's my question. Can a character be redeemed solely by their snack of choice? And we're going to talk about that in a second. Two things.

Tonnix Waifer is a Scottish treat. I've never had it. It looks great. It looks delicious. But the way that Duffy is holding it, which is he completely unwraps this chocolate bar and then just raw mitts it as he dips it in his tea, that's not for me.

Oh my God, raw minting the tonnex wafer. Okay, so our listener from Barbados wants to know, can a character be redeemed solely by their snack of choice? Yes or no, depending. Here's the prompt we've decided for ourselves. Is there a snack if when you see a person eating it, you're like, that's the person I would like to know. And is there a snack if when you see someone eating it,

you're like, I have no interest in knowing you any further. beyond this choice you've made to romit a snack food or otherwise uh rob mahoney what do you what do you want to say about this yeah how you eat a snack as a whole other can of worms that we may have to get into on a different pod i will say if i see anyone out on the wild and maybe this is a very american-centered reference but if i see you out in the world enjoying an almond joy there are there are only dozens of us and i would recognize you across the world as a person of refined taste I feel so close to you in this moment. I was afraid that was your, that was your, it's a no for me, and I was, I was worried this

at the end of our podcast. Almond Joy has been like my, my, Halloween bartering candy of choice of like, yeah, I'll take five almond joys for your one like Butterfinger. Let's do it. Correct. Correct. Thank you. Okay.

What's yours? Oh, so because our listener is dealing in the realm of a UK snack, I thought I would go UK snacks. It'll mean that there's no. reason too I decided to. It's a yes for me is a McVitties digestive with the dark chocolate. It is not like hard to find. It's just like a little harder to find than the milk chocolate or the one with no chocolate.

So if you get a McVitties digestive with dark chocolate and you put it in a cup of milky tea, that is as British as I've ever felt. You do unfortunately, I think given the nature, have to romit it a little bit. And I won't lie to you, the chocolate on it might like get a little melty as you dunk. So it's tough. It's not necessarily the tidiest of snacks. Well, yeah. My problem is not the raw midding in general.

It's the unforced error. Like, if it's already in a rapper, use the wrapper. I agree. I agree. So, yeah, McVity is digestive dark chocolate. Because to your point about Almond Joy, it's like, there's not a ton of us out there. I know. Okay.

There's a secret list somewhere. I won't reveal anyone else's name on it because we're subject to a lot of criticism. And look, if you want to be out there and, front of Almond Joy in the way that I am, I welcome you. But if you want to be behind the curtain, I respect your privacy on this matter. I will say amounts, however. Amounds is just always disappointingly not an almond joy is how I feel about amounts. So, you know. The balance is a little off. And I say that's someone who loves dark chocolate and coconut, but there's something about it that doesn't quite work as well. All right. What's your, what's your, it's a no for me,

snack? This is very specific. I think for me, it is someone who, when given an ice cream, or given the opportunity to select their ice cream flavor and or toppings. chooses a topping that has no compatibility with the ice cream. Like if you pick... This is an elite answer of... Chocolate ice cream and gummy bears. What the fuck are you doing? Why do you even exist in this world?

Why would you do that to yourself? I'm looking out for you. And I'm trying to help you make better choices. And that's not a choice you should be making. So would you agree the reverse is true that if you got like, let's say, a strawberry ice cream and put like M&Ms on it? You're like, why are you doing that? Right?

Well, wait, why are you doing that? Oh, you're pro that? What's wrong with strawberry and chocolate? I guess. I don't know. I'm just trying to reverse the gummy to chocolate. What's like a, what's a chocolate on top of what would be disgusting to you? I think this is usually the problem.

It's some combination of chocolate with a fruit that chocolate does not work well with or a fruit profile that chocolate doesn't work well with. That segues perfectly into my answer, which is, and this is very specific to me and very specific to the UK. I think the combination of orange and chocolate is absolutely. Absolutely repulsive. I hate it. People love it. I hate it. I'm not here to talk to you about a chocolate orange though. I'm here to talk to you about a jaffa cake. Well, you've already made your stance on jaffa cakes. Very clear. I just have to bring it back. Jaffa cakes are disgusting. And I just want, I just need any opportunity to let people know.

Jaffa cakes are absolutely a no. And if you were to get orange sherbet and put chocolate on top of it, I would look at you askance. That would be a problem. But as far as the chocolate orange goes, one, very satisfying. bust in that thing open. I wish they came in other flavors because sometimes they come with like a little hammer. Who doesn't want to like, you know, high ho off to work at you go with an orange treat. What they also need is smaller increments. Like I can't eat the whole chocolate orange. I just want maybe one to two slivers tops and it's not the easiest rewrap.

I think people don't think people just like crumple the foil back around it and then you get this sort of like lump-o orange chocolate foil? Okay. I'm sure people do. It just feels very undignified. I want something that can be easily contained or eaten all in one sitting. Those are the two options for me. I think it's really funny that you thought

I would restrain myself ever to only once or twice talking about Jaffa Cakes when I will take every opportunity. And I would like to transition now from that very erudite discussion to our interview with the great Gary Oldman. Enjoy. I mean, I think we have to start with Jackson Lamb,

a character that we love, that felt so perfectly formed from the first time we saw. saw him in the show, and I'm curious, you know, obviously, Lamb doesn't require a lot of wardrobe or prosthetic work from you, but he has a very distinctive look all the same. And how much involvement did you have in finding that look for Lamb at the outset of the show of how rumpled and stained his shirt needs to be, of how much grease is too much grease? What was the definition of that character like? I mean, obviously, I bring a character from a book to a moving, walking, breathing

person, you know, as the actor, I'm going to bring my imagination to it. But it is a creative, Mick Heron wrote the books. I mean, it's a fabulous creation. A lot of the work was there. It was done for me. So you pick up on the clues, his hair is touching the collar. So we know that there's, he doesn't keep himself in that respect. and that there's stains on his shirt and he's got food on his tie.

So there's clues there in the book. And then we just kind of got together and went through a big, like you do, a huge wardrobe rack. And the coat speaks to you and the Mac, which is my sort of little nod to Colombo. And the suit, I still have the same shoes four seasons in. I'm still wearing the same shoes. probably the same socks.

And yeah, we experimented with some product and stuff in the hair. I'll tell you a little backstory of getting there. One of the producers on the show, Douglas Banski, is we create sort of producing partner. We've been together over 30 years,

done many, many, many films together. And I said to him, you know, a love long form, TV. I would love to do something on TV, but I really don't want to wear lots of costumes. I don't, you know, I've won so many costumes. I've worn so much prosthetic makeup. I've been thousands of hours in the chair. I've worn wigs. I've done this. I've played this guy. Dracula. Bay over this. I would love to do something where I can kind of use my own accent. I don't want big costume changes. I don't want to wear prosthetics. I'd prefer not to wear a wig.

And if it was in the world of espionage, that would be kind of good. And, of course, it would have to be well written. And, you know, now, so I've got and find me that. And then very, very soon after, we were on a plane together, and he was reading the script. And I let over and I just said, well, you're looking at? And he said, I'm reading a character who is about to become your best friend. And from the sky, Jackson Land, slow horses,

appeared. And that was it. And I read the first script, then learned that it was, you know, it was based on these books. And that's really kind of how it happened. I read the first couple of episodes and thought, this is a fantastic character. It's espionage, but it's familiar. Yeah, I would love to do this and love to be a part. I don't think, we didn't even have a director then. It was just a sort of, you know, if I would have to do it, We said to Apple, are you interested? If Gary would commit to this and want to do this, then does that give it a little bit of something?

And I think what happened was that from it being very colloquial and it is quintessentially English, of course, but I think it just gave it a bit of international buzz. It's a show that could maybe reach outside of the UK. you know, and it's, and here we are, season four, the nine Emmy nominations. It's not too shabby, really. Not too bad.

Not bad at all. I love that you mentioned Colombo, and I love that you talked about sort of that familiarity of the show. Something that we love about a Colombo or a slow horses is that consistency, that familiarity, like the characters don't change that much, and we like that. we like returning to that.

But I'm curious with a creation like Jackson Lamb, a character that feels so grand in reality, there has to be some incremental movement on the character. Like last season, right, he comes clean to Catherine. There are these moments that sort of push him in one direction or another. What kind of incremental movement should we be looking for in a Jackson Lamb, do you think? I mean, I think Peter Falk played Colombo for like 37 years or something. Yeah.

And like Jackson lamb, I think the coat got a little dirtier. He didn't change too much. You know, what we have with lamb is each season, a sort of layer of the onion is peeled away. And we get a little glimpse into why he's there, why he is who he is. The whole thing of the lack of hygiene, I guess, he's certainly an alcoholic. but the drinking, the smoking, the no filter, the directness of him is all, I think, part of the spy craft.

He can weaponise it. You will underestimate him. And he's certainly as smart as George Smiley. And as Will once said, Will our head rider, I thought he put it beautifully when he said, but you're watching the smoldering embers of a man. We'll get glimpses of who he once was.

I mean, by all accounts, he was a legendary figure in MI5, much like a George Smiley or much like a David Carwright. So you get these little seismic shifts each time you see him. And that subsequently, it has a knock on effect with the people around you. I love his relationship, the tabna. It's like a marriage, isn't it?

But they're in this relationship. It's sort of inappropriate, but they put together so long, you know, and they stayed around for the kids. And the kids are gone, and now they can't be effed. I know you've, I mean, the idea of Lamb as a father There was an interesting one I hadn't even considered,

even if it's like a surrogate father. I know he and River have that sort of relationship. But as you're kind of imagining what Lamb's life has been like, I know you've mentioned that Mick Heron hasn't articulated a lot to you beyond what's on the page as far as that life. But is there something that you could share with us in terms of what you've drawn up for the character? What you imagine Lamb's life would be from a process perspective before the show kicks off? There are things that I guess I've thought about that I wouldn't necessarily want to reveal.

Sure. Because it's sort of like someone reading your diary. Well, he certainly was burned by Cartwright, the senior. Yeah. That's the straw, I think, that broke the camel's back. And to put your trust in someone like Charles Palmer to then discover, that he had committed treason and then be assigned the job of terminated. That's got to mess you up.

But we do get this. You know, we're constantly reminded of his, he despises the glory, the narcissism, the sort of corruption, the establishment. Slough House is almost his finger to it all, isn't it? I think he's really burned by the past and has seen a lot of death. It's like the Marines, you know the Marines, the thing, and you never leave a man in the field. You know, you never leave anyone behind. I think Jackson is enormously loyal to those slow horses and looks at the establishment who have left men in the field and can't forgive them for that. And of course, a tabler is someone that he'll tolerate.

I mean, he has to work with her, but loves to remind her. You have such incredible chemistry with this ensemble cast is incredible. We love everyone and what they bring to the table. And I'm curious in your role as lead actor, I know you had some sort of or in when it came to some casting decisions, and I'm curious if there were any actors you particularly went to bat for. I'm involved, you know, as much as I can be. That's a thing more recently.

Occasionally, they'll send me a tape and say, well, sadly, it's either this one or this one. And that's our story, isn't it, as actors? You know, it doesn't mean that person's less good. It's a piece that has to fit in the puzzle, the big puzzle that the director is putting together. I had nothing to do with the casting of really, anything in really season one.

I was thrilled that Kristen was, before she accepted, I knew she was in the running. And I said, oh, that's a great piece of casting for Tavernor. And we had worked together on the darkest hour. Often you'll work with someone and say to them, I'd love to do this again sometime. And you'd never see them again. Yeah.

Your paths don't cross. Yeah. And then there's some people that you keep constantly running into. Like, I can't get rid of Benedict Cumberbatchel, Tom Harbin, Shailaboof. I mean, you can't get rid of these people. And so it was like, oh, Kristen, yeah, it'd be great. We, you know, we had a great time on darkest hours. So that was, that was a nice thing.

The biggest takeaway from the show for me is, It's great scripts and a great character, but the biggest takeaway has been the people. I'm glad that the end result has been well received. That was our intention, you know, create a group of people get together and they want to make it the best thing that they can make. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

The journey of getting there has been fun. They're adorable. They're all. lovely people. I love them and I just come in and it's great going back every season and seeing them all again and working with them. I feel very, very lucky and very blessed. I'm 66 years old and in this hit show

and I get to come in every day and play with these great people. I mean, it's the best job in the world. What can I say? Well, not only do you get to work with all those people season after season, but you've gotten to have this relationship with Jackson Lamb that seems pretty unique in your career. And I know you've revisited characters before, but how was something like coming back to Commissioner Gordon

or Sirius Black? How does that process compare for you with the sort of long-term development you've had with Lamb? Well, the gaps are bigger. The flag we fly coming in was respect the audience. They give their time and investment in people. in these shows, as we all do. You know, and then they disappear for two years or whatever,

and they go, yeah, we're going to get season three. Got the first time, it's pretty good. You either wait around forever for the damn thing to come back, or it comes back and they jump the sharp, and then you go, I've invested all this time in this thing, and now this is ridiculous. And whoever's putting this together as now, Now, I've forgotten why we liked it.

Or, you know, I don't know what happens. The dynamic changes. So we felt the audience are going to give their time and their investment into this. Let's not keep them hanging around. Let's shoot the show. We have a three months off, so we shoot six and six, twelve, together. And we have a break. And then we wind it all back up.

and we have the next season, then we're a shorter break, and the next season, we have one director for six, so there's a continuity, it's like a six-hour movie. There's input, of course, but there's one vision,

and those are the things that we, you know, originally, I think they wanted to do three books or three episodes of book, and you go, well, you're not going to do, you're going to tear a passion to Tatters

if you do that, You know, you can't tell these stories in three episodes. So there were things going in. But this is the parameter. This is what we want to do with the show. And it's paid off, I think. I mean, I could do. You know, there's certain things sometimes where you just think,

oh, we've had to cut that. I mean, they're pretty lean going in. Yeah. isn't a lot that we're removing and taking out. I mean, they're pretty lean going in, but there's things in the book sometimes where you just go, oh, I love that. I wish we could have had that in the show. And maybe if you did eight episodes, you may be able to do it, then it might be overkill. And then you go, six is just enough, leave them wanting a little bit more. and then we give you a coming attraction

and you know that we're coming back. And that's the sort of formula of slow walks. That's been masterminded by Doug and Will, Jayhan. I think it's a pretty good formula. Excellent. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.

We hope you get to play Jackson Lim forever. We would love that. Apple want to keep us up there? then yeah, I'm happy to play Jetsonland. Till he drinks itself to death. Oh, that's hard. Thank you, Gary. That does it for us for Presti-Shevee Slow Horses season before episode two.

We'll be back next week with episode three. Thanks to Gary Olman, of course, for that chat. We'll also be back this week with our coverage of like sort of a mid-season check-in on Bad Monkey, a show we both really really like that's also running on Apple right now Thanks to Justin Sales for his production work across the prestige feed. And of course, to the hopefully adequately snacked. We know he has a, he has like a snack pantry. So we know he's got snacks going.

Hi, Grady. Thank you for all your work and your elite snack choices. We will see you all soon. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium.

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