The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Slow Horses’ Season 4, Episode 4 With Showrunner Will Smith

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

Jo and Rob grab their flight funds to recap the fourth episode of ‘Slow Horses’ Season 4. They open with a few more listener emails before discussing a theory on what landed J.K. Coe in Slough House, how they’re feeling about Season 4 in relation to past seasons, and the shocking fate of Sam Chapman (18:32). Along the way, they check in on coat watch and Spy Vs. Spy (38:22). Later, they’re joined by ‘Slow Horses’ showrunner and Emmy Award–winning writer Will Smith to talk about why Hugo Weaving was the perfect actor to play this season’s villain, what it’s like to be juggling multiple seasons at once, his approach to writing pleasant grumps, and much more (49:35). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Guest: Will Smith Producer: Kai Grady Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Borset committed to craft since 1905. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joyner Robinson. I am Rob Mahoney. We're here to talk about slow horses, season two, episode four, returns.

Only two more episodes of the season. Completely wild. I can't believe that we're already here. But that's what happens with slow horses here. It's over before you know it. This week on the pod, we have a very special guest. Indeed, we've got Will Smith, the showrunner, head writer. Sorry, that was Emmy-winning writer and showrunner, Will Smith.

Emmy-winning showrunner and writer, Will Smith is here to talk about, you know, this episode a little bit, but like sort of a broader look at the series. So we got some definitive answers about timelines, among other things. He was wonderful. He gave us so much of his time. We were like, oh, sorry, should we wrap it up? He's like, no, I could do this all. He's a great guy.

Great guy, Wilson. So thank you so much. That will sort of pop at the end of our discussion today. And, yeah, so returns directed as ever this season by Adam Randall, written by Mark Denton and Johnny Stockwood. And we should say that the writer rotation is the same for every season. There's about four people who read on this show, and they've done so since season one. So if you're like, that's why we get consistency on this show.

Spoiler warning. No spoiler warning beyond. We have not read the books. I just am going to say that. We do have an email from a listener about sort of book recommendations, but we have no foreknowledge from the books. and Rob Mahoney, anything you want to say about the film Megalopoulos, which we saw this week? How long do you have?

You know, eons, decades. It takes a bit to get into. Honestly, I was cackling because I did not realize that the subtitle for Megalopolis was Megalopolis, colon, a fable. And once I set the table for myself in that mind space, I was not disappointed. I will say that. I think the film delivers a lot. Is any of it good? TBD.

TBD. All right. Those are our abbreviated Megalopolis thoughts. I just need you to know that Robert De Niro and this pre-screening panel did assure us that Donald Trump could not direct that movie. He couldn't do it. He couldn't direct it. I think it's one of the best things we ever experienced.

You know what? Donald Trump could not do this podcast. I'm willing to go out of a line and say he could not do it. Also true. Also true. Okay. We're going to do like a quick zoom through sort of some email. You guys have been.

killing it on the email front. So thank you for all of your thoughts. Speaking of, Penny for Your Thoughts is the name of last week's episode, and we were sort of wondering what the significance was other than the, we know the meaning of the phrase, Penny for your thoughts.

I would like to know what you're thinking. Generally speaking, yes. But Eric wrote in to let us know that in the 1985 sort of Prague rock version of Lavender Blue, which is the song that David Cartwright is, is singing, mumbling to himself in episode three. The lyrics after lavender blue, dilly-dilly, lavender green, when I'm king, dilly-dilly, you'll be my queen,

is a penny for your thoughts, my dear. So that's a lyric from the song. It's not in the Disney version, but it is in the Prague-Rock version. So now we know what David's taste more accurately. It's not Disney. It's the band Marillion. So thank you to Eric for pointing that out to us. I imagine this is a blind spot for us, Joe.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you as a big prog rock guy. I'm actually like a medium prog rock guy. Like Knights of my satin is like, I think, one of the all-time jams that have ever existed. I don't consider myself a prog-rock expert, but I enjoy it when it comes on. Well, the prog-rock sickos are really into,

like they are deep into the weeds. So the expertise comes by honestly. I respect and bow at the altar. And I appreciate the listeners filling us in on our blind spots here. It's not my genre, admittedly. but I'll dabble and certainly I'm glad to have the info in this case. You don't like a bluesy flute.

Not a fan. Not usually my tempo. I have to say this has been a big math rock slash Midwest emo year for me. I don't know where that's coming from but it's come from somewhere in addition to, of course, the French rap that we've discussed previously.

So maybe 2025 is my Prague rock year. Okay. Because previously it was like beachy emo, right? Aren't you like a beachy emo guy? Well, what do you consider beachy emo? like early, like, butterfly-era weezer? Um,

now that's all I want it to be. So, okay. Let's get back to slow horses. Matt, our listener Matt wrote in response, we got actually a bunch of responses to this question, one of our listeners had about like,

can I just pick up the books, starting with book five? If I've watched season one through four, haven't read any of the books, can I just dive in and start, dive in, start being book five. The short answer is yes,

you can. A few people said, I wouldn't recommend it, but yes, technically you can. You won't have, like, missed anything. major. And then Matt said sort of specifically, he says, everything you need from one through four is in the show. And he says, honestly, the books are so well written and so much fun, there's a good

chance you'll end up reading them all together with the novellas and other related novels. I started with the second book after watching season one. And inside of a couple months, I'd read everything in print, including the first book. And he says, Mick Haren's prose in the Slalow house series is like what you'd get if you mixed, PG Woodhouse, John LaCoree, and a touch of Tom Stopper in the mix. And that is one of the most this is me, Joanna talking. That's one of the most alluring things I've ever heard in my life.

If someone had told me that if Chris Ryan had pitched the series to me that way, I would have read it years ago. So that's a great wreck from that. What do you think? Are you going to pick up a Slow Horse book? Respectfully, no. I'm not out here trying to read fiction, Joe.

It's just not what I'm trying to do. Really? Ever? Rare, rare, Exceptions, but in my adult life, I have read scant few actual novels. I am a nonfiction reader, first and foremost, end of discussion, period at the end of the sentence. I'm out here trying to learn things, you know? Okay. I am the exact opposite. I do not read any nonfiction, and I read, as you know, read a lot of fiction. So, this would be a crazy place for you to disclose that you secretly had not read any novels that you proclaimed to read another podcast. I would

I would respect the grift, but it would be crazy. I just don't, I think people are surprised that I absolutely just do not read nonfiction. So I'm glad that, you know, together we can sort of read all the books that are in the world. There we go. Something that is maybe more up your alley, a listener who put a pronunciation guy in her name and I'm still going to probably get it wrong. I want to say, cut. It might just be cat. But anyway, I just wrote in to say, for Rob, if you don't want to set aside a tinfoil blob of half-eaten chocolate orange, I recommend your willpower.

you can get bags of mini slices or you can get chocolate orange slice bars. So do you think you would go for like an individually, it's like a baby bell of cheese, like an individual foil-wrapped slice of a chocolate orange? So that's something that intrigues you, Rob Mahoney? Now we're talking. Now we're getting somewhere.

The whole orange is just too much of an undertaking. That said, having the bag of slices in my possession in my home, I will just eat them in one sitting anyway. So I don't know where we're getting, but we're getting somewhere. This listener also let me know that they're releasing it a milk chocolate no orange to fuck up the milk chocolate version this holiday season, I believe. So I too can enjoy the joy of an orange chocolate without the orange.

It's literally just milk chocolate in the shape of an orange. I mean, what's wrong with that, honestly? But I feel like we already have that, but not orange. I don't know. Does the universe need more milk chocolate shapes? So you could enjoy the whack and unwrap, experience of the orange. It's an experiential sort of situation.

Another listener let me know that there's a white chocolate version and with love and respect to that person. That is just going to make me less inclined to actually consume the rangoon. What if she never consumed the rangoon? It's not chocolate. It needs to get up out of here respectfully. I completely agree. Okay, John wrote in, and this is where the book readers are going to need to sit on their

hands because it's a theory. I know that, so the character of J.K. Co., who's, you know, if you guys aren't paying close attention to the character's names, is the moody tall guy in the hoodie who's just been sort of sitting around and glowering in the background of a lot of scenes this season. We know that his backstory is told in one of the novellas that McCarran wrote. We haven't read it. We don't know what it is.

But our listener John in a theory, which I kind of like, he says in a scene where Coe and Lamb are both there, Lamb says something we've heard him say before, which is you don't blow a Joe's cover. and then he says it again seemingly directed at Coe with emphasis, you don't blow a Joe's cover. So John's theory is, quote, I think that Coe, after being tied to a chair and threatened with an electric carving knife for 72 hours,

gave up a fellow agent blew a Joe's cover, and that's why he's in Slough House. And I like, I kind of like that theory. Again, book creators sit on your hands if you know the truth. But I don't know, it's compelling to me that he would be in Slough House for that and that he would have to deal with Lamb for whom that is, like, the original sin to blow a Joe's cover.

And we know he was tortured. We don't know why they stopped torturing him, and it presumably could be for something like that. I also love, if that theory turns out to be true, the double play of that scene where on first watch, at least the way I was watching, it was just lamb treating this guy as if he's very thick and mute and has headphones in and, like, he's very dumb

and yelling it at him. But if it turns out that it's also a very pointed message, all the better. And it seems like something Lamb would do, which is just sort of like, let me underline exactly what I know about you. Let me shout it in your face. Yeah. More on that front this week. Okay.

Great. And then this is sort of the last thing we'll say before we get into the episode proper, which is we got some more information from our book reading listeners about David Cartwright's desk. So Charlotte writes, Charles Partner was First desk, as is more underlined in this episode. In the book this season, based on Spook Street, it's constantly. mentioned that David Cartwright was, quote, first desk in all but name. So definitely a clod lady die sort of dynamic is what do you say, what is Charlotte saying. And then Ben running to say, in the book, David Cartray was never first or second guest desk, but was characterized as, quote, having a hand on the shoulder of multiple first desks. He's the brain behind the leadership,

never wanting the chair for himself. So that's sort of an interesting analysis of the power dynamic there. Charlotte also went on to say that this particular book that they're adapting, and this is sort of where I want to kick off and talk to you about maybe like a little bit of a season check-in, where two-thirds of the way through the season. Charlotte says, I think this book, in particular, is a bit hard to translate to TV without some awkward exposition more than the other books in the series I've read. It's really in the character's heads a lot of the time. So a ton of context happens that way, especially with David, we're in his befuddled head a lot in the book. It's sad, but also we get a more clear context of how River grew up slash the relationship

with his mother. That's also where the quote, first desk and all but name mantra comes in. It's in his head a lot. So this idea that you're like in the book inside David Cartwright's head and he's constantly sort of like muttering to himself, first desk and all but name is sort of like a wild thing to think about. But I'm just curious, Chris Ryan was texting me about this over the weekend. Where are you on this season of slow horses sort of compared? I think this is a good place to check in because something. that Will said in an interview, I don't want to step too much of what he said,

but he mentioned something kind of in passing about them trying something a bit different with this season, sort of taking a slightly different swing. And I wonder if that's going to manifest in a bigger way in like sort of the way the season wraps up.

Yeah. Because I don't know that I'm seeing it precisely in what we've seen so far, but I'm curious how what we've seen so far is sitting with you. So Chris texted me, he's like, where would you rank this among the others?

So you can either answer that specific question if you want to, or just sort of give me a bigger picture. Like, how are you feeling generally about season four? I'm not feeling that it's the high watermark for the series right now, but I love it every week. I have a great time with the characters every week. It's in that very comfortable slow horses zone of this is funny, this is engaging. This episode, I thought, had some of the best kind of set pieces of the season and really of the series overall. I love the dual track finale we get of trying to... find David Cartwright and also trying to chase down River at the same time.

I thought that worked really, really well. Am I getting like the sort of big picture intrigue of the central mystery of the season that we got in some of the other series? I would say that's where I'm missing a little bit. And I think some of it is there's this sort of core question that I have about all of these gentlemen who are coming out of Lazard, which is, why do they hate David Cartwright so much? And I know that's kind of the question that's being dangled over us

of what it is they're trying to enact vengeance or revenge or get closure for. I still just don't have a sense of why the antipathy is so high. Is it just that he knows he's the only one who could like sort of blow their cover in a certain way? Is it that or does it feel personal to you? I feel like it has to be personal. I feel like there has to be some shoe yet to drop about Rivers place in all of that.

I think we're assuming that it was Rivers' mother who was involved in kind of the trade for the contraband, whether she had already given birth, whether she was pregnant and hadn't told anybody, like there's some piece of information we're missing that I feel like doesn't give the central plot as much juice as, say, a plane headed for a building in downtown London.

You know, like, there's just a momentum that I feel like I'm still wanting. Yeah, I think you're right, like a van racing down, you know, and we've got to catch the van or else our hostage is going to die, that sort of stuff of season one. And I think season one is still, or like, we have to get to Catherine or whatever else,

or we have to storm a facility. I think, I think what's true this season, and again, like you and I are assuming not having read the books, that our analysis is correct, that River Cartwright is Frank's son, along with, like, these other spies,

of which two are now dead. There's Patrice and his half-brother River seems to be what's left of Frank's a little brood there. And so that means, and forgive the cliche, that this time it's more personal, right? This time it's like, his grandfather was somewhat a part

of an earlier plot, but not quite as much. And so for River specifically, this is an incredibly personal story. And so we have yet to see him sit down with Frank, with Hugo, We have to imagine that that's coming, some sort of reckoning, some sort of reckoning with

David about everything that happened, some sort of grappling with the new power dynamic in their relationship. So that's what I'm sort of hoping we get in the final two episodes that will make this really feel like a different season. Like I don't mind that I'm feeling a bit of a lack of some of that right now because I think that's what we're building towards. And I feel like at the end of the season, I'm going to look back and say this was maybe a much more emotional season of the horses than I think we've seen before.

Which, I mean, that is a different kind of swing for this show. I think there have been heavy emotional beats, but they're the kind that are either processed very quickly or swept under the rug by these people who are not equipped to handle them and then thus kind of like simmer under the surface for a long time. But if we get some actual

emotional confrontation between these characters who have a lot to talk about, I think that would put us in a pretty good place to close the season. But to circle back to the kind of adaptation question of this, I think some of the tradeoff of having it on TV and having a different sort of approach where you're not inside character's heads in the same way is we get this incredibly managed scene of river flipping through postcards and having the kind of realization that could change his entire life. And that's like one of my favorite. We asked Will about it. So you'll hear him talk about it as

well, but that's like maybe one of my favorite sow horses moments ever. Yeah. Like I agree that this season isn't like necessarily my favorite season of the show so far. We'll see how it all wraps up. But that moment with Jack Loudon, who's an actor we really, we really admire and has done a lot of great stuff on this show, but it hasn't really pushed him to go as deep as he had to go in a sort of silent moment in that scene.

And it did feel like something. new and different for slow horses that I really, and I thought it was great. I really liked it. Great scene. And just to put everything in context, not my favorite season of slow horses is still better than basically everything on TV as far as I'm concerned. So the bar is extremely high.

Exactly. Like, you know, I'm not saying this is, but the worst season of slow horses would be 10 million times better than most other things is on television. Oh, yes. On that, we absolutely agree. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical

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or caps for sun-kissed bliss with limonada gelada, where zesty Brazilian lemonade accord meets coconut milk and golden brown sugar. Don't miss Sol de Janeiro's limited edition perfume mist collection only at Sephora. Where do you want to start today? I think we can start more or less off the top because I like that we finally get to know Frank Harkness a little bit better. And we see him, I think, two crucial contexts in this episode. We get the kind of regroup later with Patrice, daddy assassin, really putting the screws to his protege,

and you get a sense of their dynamic. And then up front, we see him under pressure in a different way. And I think keep his cool pretty well, even when the saws are coming out, Joe. He doesn't seem super bothered. And the clean room suits. Ominously taking saws out of the bag. But I love that when he was like, enough with the theatrics.

Like, he's like, all right, put the saws back in the bags. Like, it's fine. You don't have to do this for me. I actually wrote down on my notes. I loved what Hugo Weave. And again, this is like, this is the most we've gotten of Hugo Weaving. Yeah. We've been sort of like waiting for this.

It's really fun to have him more seriously in the show. I think the shot of him like sipping. champagne while a chase is happening is one of like the funniest things that happens in this episode but when he goes to sit down in this meeting with uh you know the uh vaguely royal personage who he has disappointed uh just the look on his face of like assessing everything around him and aggressively playing it cool but also like sort of bemused like it's just a great stuff great stuff from Hugo Weaving. This is why you hire a Hugo Weaving, I think, for that interaction. And then, yeah, the stuff with Patrice, like, when he reaches across and, you know, digs his fingers into Patrice's wound,

what that does for us is it reframes the character of Patrice, who has, who has recently as last week, we were calling, like, a Terminator. Yeah. But now he's, like, a wounded kid who has been, like, warped into this thing. And so, like, even if the next thing we see him do is beat the shit out of Sam Chapman, and ostensibly we're not rooting for Patrice in that scene, but there is, there's just a pathos there that wasn't there before, that's really effective in a very short scene.

And I think you get a sense, first of all, Hugo Weaving-wise, just Hall of Fame-level smirker, carrying a lot of weight and volume and history with every fucking smirk in his kind of opening sequence. I love every minute of it. And he does give a very dramatic, dare I say, Shogun-esque, flare of his coat as he sits down. Very presentational.

I appreciate our guy. But also with Patrice, I think the other takeaway I had from that scene was just that Patrice, yes, he's a super spy. Yes, he seems instructable, but maybe he is not, needs to get patched up, as you say. But also not exactly the brains of the operation. Like he feels much more like a weapon to be put in the field and is coming back to Frank for guidance as far as like what it is. he needs to be doing, including

maybe the most obvious play on the board, which is go for the guy's go bag and money and the stuff that he needs to escape because that's really the only place he has left to go. On the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, when he gets there, like his whole strategy, when he just silently drops down

and you see it through the window, like the way he approaches, Sam, that seems fairly intelligent. Maybe that's just good training rather than, yeah, like innovative thinker. I think it's the difference between good tactics and good strategy. Like, he's good at tactics. Frank is the strategic mind.

That's interesting. The other thing I will say on the super spy front, if I'm Frank, an American raising a brood of French boys to be like, to blend in wherever they go, I'm going to make sure their English is less accented than the choices. Well, they're not, they're not all, I mean,

there are varying nationalities and persuasions. Yeah, but they all grew up in Lizzov, right? Like, they were all trained on the compound. It's not exactly being raised. in America, you know? I know, but if I'm, I mean, I guess Frank was probably not doing, like, the homeschooling, but I'm just saying, like, I would make, like, you can't really blend in if you have Patrice's accent.

And I would also say that, you know, poor Bertrong could have done some better accent work, and maybe he wouldn't have had his cover blown when he was impersonating river. Who's to say? I'm all for people taking jobs overseas to, you know, in an English-speaking school, teach for America, whatever it is. Like, get out there in the world, experience some things. taking the tutor job at Lezard, I wouldn't recommend it.

The reviews on that one are pretty bad. The benefits package is shit. I just would not do it because I think you also have to do the laundry. I think it's basically the moms, and that seemed like a sucky job. All right. What did you think of the dynamic between Lamb and Sam in this episode? We have seen them interact before, as we mentioned, like in various laundromat scenes. but Jackson seems

despite the fact that Sam worked for David who Jackson seems to hate or Jackson definitely does hate Lamb has like he's very concerned for Sam much more so than he usually is for people right like I think his you know be careful be careful is supposed to make us you know be on high alert

but also it's just an unusual emotional attachment between Lamb and a cohort. What do you think of that? I think they see something in each other. And it's probably a similarity of worldview with this stuff where clearly there's some philosophical discrepancy between Lamb and David Cartwright, for example. Sam Chapman is just the guy who goes and gets the stuff done. And he does apparently his job somewhat well, although I have questions about that. Like letting a person you're supposed to evacuate slip away at a gas station, not the best. Do you feel like if it was a bottle of Jenny

wouldn't have lost track of him? I do want to come back to that, but I'm just saying I have alternative theories as to where the name Bad Sam Chapman may have come from after this episode. Oh, Bad is John Chapman. Oh, no. Well, he does get David out of the old park slash new hotel in mere seconds, like mere seconds.

Fractions of a second. And fans back in their poof, banished. Incredible work, honestly. My credulity was. strained a little bit after watching David fumble down the street with his cane. He is not moving that fast across

a hotel lobby. That was the only moment where I bumped against the reality of slow horses. I like to imagine that they went out of the side door. And shout out to Catherine for her absolutely charming fire alarm pulling move. That was just great stuff from Catherine. I thought. What do you want to say about

here's one of my favorite moments? You know I'm kind of fixated on the lamb Catherine dynamic. When he assigns Shirley and Marcus, they go back to the park. They're in the kitchen. She's been in the kitchen, and she is suitably, like, freaked out by Coe, etc. And perturbed in Moira's like, you're going to come back to this job. I'm pretty sure you're coming back.

She's like, what do you mean? Shout out to Joanna Scanlon, to the puff in her as she delivers the line about, well, I am going back to the park. You love this character type because it's similar to Gitti, like pleasure to have a class sort of vibe from Moira, both of them. This is almost like more aloof and the fact that she so clearly believes herself to be above this

when there's also probably a reason that she's here. That is a contrast that I like the show playing with. But Jackson being like, assigning Shirley and Marcus to go surveil, right? And Catherine says she's going to go and he says, no. And his brusque sort of, you know, you can't be trusted

sort of way or don't follow me. I don't really care. But he definitely just wants her there working with him because he loves working with her. And that is all very important to me. It is very sweet. And the fact that it comes after the needle you alluded to, Joe, which I have to say

for me is the Lambshank nominee of the week. Oh, yeah. Kai, please roll the tape. She lost him. I moved him before flight got there. Where? My neighbors. And he got out. Oh, for fuck, sikes, stares. You know, you wouldn't have lost him. if he was a bottle of gin.

I want to note that I was not the only person to laugh at Jackson Lamb, needling, an alcoholic for potentially misplacing a bottle of gin. There is an audible chuckle in this scene that seems to be coming from Marcus or Shirley, but I can't quite identify which one. I feel like surely with the drug habit would not be the one laughing,

so I believe it's probably Marcus. But also, she has the temperament where she might laugh at it. Fair, fair point. Let's go to Geetty in the park, what's happening in the park. Diana, and Will mentions this, Diana comes to Lamb for the first time in the series.

This is the first time we've seen her near Slough House. And I love the whole thing when he's like, can I get in the car? She's like, no. You smell atrocious, absolutely not. This interaction outside of Slough House, before we go to Diana in the park, I loved this. My favorite moment is when he realizes that flight has not filled her in on all the information, which she will later chew flight out for, but she can't make eye

contact with him. She's like looking anywhere, but at him as he figures out that she's not on top of all the information, which I thought was incredible stuff from Chris and Scott Thomas. It really just does pop up every time that they have occasion to talk, that this is the only real sparring partner that Lamb has left, at least in the service. I think there are people like Sam, and it's part of why there's still such a mutual respect there, where there's There's an understanding, there is a rapport. There's a sense that this person has their shit together. I think all of those things exist between Lamb and Tavernor, too.

There's just so much more, there's just so much more juice to it because they so clearly do not like each other and don't quite know what to do with each other, but have to figure it out. And I'll take as much of that as we can get. I'll take as much of Diana Tavernor having to humble herself to show up at Slough House as the show is willing to deliver. then when we go over to the park, we get this section where she's just like watching Claude out on the floor like, you know, glad-handing people and she's so disgusted. And she's muttering about, you know, sort of take away the good looks. There's nothing left. And Emma sort of mistakenly thinks she's talking about her.

This and I kind of, I mean, I don't know how much I want to address it, but my understanding from people like emails we've gotten. And also I was sort of poking around the, the Slow Horse's Reddit boards, what a fun place to be, where they were talking in previous. seasons about like dream casting, like who they would want to play various people. Okay. And for Emma Flight,

the dream casts were like, I would say much more, I think this woman is gorgeous, but much more like obviously like supermodel hot women, I guess I would say. Someone where you notice how they look and that is distracting in a way that you like can't even focus on whether or not they're good at their job,

et cetera, et cetera. And that is the sort of implication that that maybe is why Claude hired her because of the way she looks. It might be why Diana resents the hire, all this sort of stuff like that. So that kind of line, I think, hits differently. I like the way they've cast it. I like that they didn't quite,

I think almost especially how she dresses, like her, like the way, like her trousers are rolled, like all this sort of stuff. It's a different thing. Again, this is an absolutely gorgeous actors. I'm not saying, but it's not like a, I wouldn't look at her and say that one was only hired

because of the way she looks. When I think that's the implication of the book, please arstime the Pope at Chimaulotam if you agree or disagree. But what do you make of the characterization of a flight, like sort of in this episode, and in relation to Diana? Well, I think there is enough characterization to this point. While I get everything you're saying, there's enough to make Tavernor's line about, oh, take away the good looks and there's really nothing there that she says she's talking about Claude,

but is clearly talking about both or probably primarily Emma, to be honest with you. the disappointment of that character to date is notable. And thank God she got a win in this episode because she's taken L after L after L. It's good to see competence. It's good to see something in that character where she's not terrible at her job. I think she's just not really sure how to operate in this space.

And I thought it was kind of telling that we learn that her past professional life was as a cop. Yeah. Right? It's like she's used to a very different kind of investigation, very different kind of space, a very different kind of pecking order, and is still getting used to, you know, like, how do you deal with a Jackson Lamb who's feeding you kind of sideways information? How do you process everything that's input in order to actually get the results that you need

to Tavernor's satisfaction? She's a long way to go in that regard. But I think she's learning in a way that is promising for that character. I think it's the politics angle, right? Yeah. This idea of like, I guess in theory, I don't know, I've never been. in the metro in the UK, but like in theory, if you go to people who are in your department, they would be direct with you and tell you their side of things or whatever.

She's not used to the fact that people are playing their own agenda. I'm sure that happens in the police force as well. No doubt. I don't know what point I'm trying to make there. It's not a lambshake, but I will say I actually think my favorite sharpest line is when Diana Athens preamble of like, we're both women, we know how hard it is to work here.

And then she says, the severance package should you resign is far more generous than if I fire you. Gives her the pep talk and then offers to hand her the pen. In the guise of women supporting women, let me give you some insight. If you just resign,

it'll be better for you financially. Wonderful stuff. Very, very good. And yeah, the contrast in styles between Tavernor dressing down Emma in this way and Claude, as you mentioned, out on the floor,

glad-handed, telling people they're doing such a good job. And then coming up and eventually, I guess Diana technically comes out to him first and they meet, Claude is really feeling himself. It feels like Tavernor has a sense of the fact that they are underwater. They have a lot they need to solve very quickly in order to keep this all swept under the rug. And Claude, for whatever reason, is kind of already taking victory laps and gloating at the idea of, oh, he is now caught up on the information.

And he obviously wants to have all of this transparency and accessibility as far as how badly MI5 has screwed up here. but also he's in charge of everything that is blowing up. And so I love that that character is gloating. I'm not quite sure he should be gloating. Well, new to the team. So he gets to claim that that was like the mistakes of a previous administration. That is true. That is true.

And he, you know, he's the cleanup candidate. But like, I think that, um, first of all, shout out your girl, Giti, who found some information despite the shredding party that Diana had down in records. She's down there, taping shreds together, scanning them in. Yeah. Go get her. Making it work. I, I would like to have.

imagine Molly just sort of sitting there watching her do that. But then also, yeah, when Diana says, calls Claudus sanctimony as fool and then says, I will take back the tone but not the sentiment. I want to just hold on to that. I want to some point in my life deploy that. I will take back the tone, but not the sentiment. This is the thing is like we may have our relative reservations

about this season relative to previous seasons of slow horses. That's an all-time slow horses line and an all-time Tavernor moment. Yeah. Who are we to disagree with anything that we're being given here? Two other little things on this. One, we're getting a lot of development

as far as the Adam Lockhead part of the puzzle. And we actually talked to Wilson about that in the interview, so stick around for some of the details on what is and isn't Adam Lockhead as it relates to certain core members of the cast.

But after getting a close look of his passport photo, even knowing who that is and is supposed to be, I got to say, he looks a lot more like Deputy U.S. Marshal Tim Gutterson to me than he does River Cartwright?

I think he looks so much like River Cartwright. What am I not? I feel like I have face blindness with this show sometimes. Clearly you are right, but I don't know why I just don't see it. That's so funny. The prosthetics are blinding me.

We should experiment and put it like a post-it over the nose part and see if then it looks like Jack Loud into you. I think that's it really is the nose that's giving me pause. But the other key moment of this scene that I want to highlight is it really unlocked a new goal for me, Joe, which is I would like to be the eminence grease of something. I want all the power and influence, none of the responsibility.

I just want to meddle. And if you have any options for me, like, you know, if House of R needs a meddler, if you need me pulling puppet strings, I'm sure for it. That's all I'm saying. I don't know if you can be anywhere near House of R given that you don't read fiction. That's just like a disqualifying.

What if I steer y'all? away from fiction, you know? Okay, that sounds like not the move. On the when in time we are. I am trying to, this is one question I have out of this episode. We talked to Will a bit about the set deck and you'll hear some great anecdotes about that, but I loved when Diana and Jackson are outside Slough House, you see like dried up desiccated Christmas trees with like, you know, tinsel on them just like near the dumpster.

but when Catherine and Sam, bad Sam Chapman, go to the hotel that used to be the park, there's like lush decorated Christmas trees outside of the hotel. So I can't tell if it's like, are we in January or when are, like, it feels like we should be in the first week of January and Sallel House just like dumped their sad trees outside near the dumpster. But why does the fancy hotel still have their Christmas decorations up? That's the question that I have. I think they would into early January probably, right? It's still kind of winter Wonderland season. We know we're post-Christmas because Roddy had his chikadoo Christmas.

Exactly. Rob, when do you take your Christmas tree down, presuming that you celebrate with trees at the holidays? So personally, I'm a little lazy on the downtake. Okay. So I would be early to mid-January. Mid-January. All of this said.

My mother, mom, if you're listening, I apologize for airing you out in this way, has a truly incalculable amount of Christmas decoration that simply must stay up. That must stay up longer than that. Like she has like bins that sit in like the storage until it's time and then winter wonderland, as you said, as you put it. Bins upon bins upon bins. To the point that the consideration is not just, are you having a great time and do you love Christmas? It's what is the manpower required?

to put all this stuff back in the bins and back into storage. There are practical considerations that I think make it last longer. Is it like throw pillows or is it like mangers or like what are we doing for the holidays in the Mahoney household? There is not a corner of that house where you will not find a Santa. Wow. The halls are decked. They are fully decked. There's the full Christmas village treatment set up, obviously the tree and all the all the garlands that you could ever want. Wow. Amazing.

So yeah, there's a lot going on. That sounds delightful. Your mom sounds like a delightful. Merry Christmas, Mom. Merry Christmas. Okay, let's talk about this. We get a chase scene. We get a good old fashion let River run through the tube, chastine.

Two notes on coat watch, outerwear watch. You already mentioned that Frank does a sort of like Shogun-esque flourish, but also just like any time he's stalking through the streets, the coat is billowing behind him. So Frank Harkness takes the coat crown this week because River Cartwright stuffs his beautiful coat in a bin for no reason that I can fathom. I didn't see a blood stain on it.

I don't know why he needed to dump this beautiful piece of outerware in a train trash that could not possibly contain it. What's your coat take here, Rob? For some reason, the fact that it was a train bathroom trash can made it more offensive to me. For many reasons.

For one, that's a very small trash can and you're putting a whole ass coat into it, very inconsiderate. It's a very stylish coat. It's so nice. I can't imagine River Cartwright is making Buccoo bucks. I mean, he might have, you know, Cartwright money. He does.

Yeah. Yeah. That could be. But like, I don't, like, was it, like, the only thing I can think of is someone will recognize me in this coat, so I need to change up what I'm wearing. It's such a signature look for him that apparently everyone would know. That's River Cartwright. He's like.

If I'm just wearing the zip up, they'll never know it's me. I do think that's it, though, is like changing the general look to try to blend in. I don't know that he needed to do that, considering one of my favorite things about this whole sequence, look, I love a train. I love a train hurtling toward trouble. Yes. That is an ideal situation. Dramatic irony.

Who knew, Joe? Who knew it could pop off like this? But the fact that River doesn't know what he's walking into is, I think, why this sequence works so well. And if he doesn't know what he's going into, I guess this is a story. just out of an abundance of caution, but probably even then still unnecessary. I think I want to call it good spycraft, but I actually think it's just unnecessary levels of spycraft.

I love the, so this episode is called, you know, returns. And both, well, I don't know how much time Frank has spent in jolly old England before then, but like, you know, both Franken River arrive in the UK. The way, the dramatic way they say, like, River Cartwright is coming back to London. Like, it's just very, like, I love the way that that's pronounced as this event. And then, yeah, and then he takes off and hauls ass through this tube station. And I really, the train station down into the tube. I loved this sequence.

Neck tattoo is here doing his best to keep up. Emma has some good ideas about sort of like what route he might have taken. She knows a foot chase, right? This is something that she's done in Metro. And in more sensible footwear this week. I think it's a flat it looks like more so than the kind of boot she's wearing before. But can we please get Emma on something with some arch support? Is that too much to ask?

And I love that it ends with essentially like a Mentos commercial like River being like, well, as the car, as like the door slide shut on the dogs. I loved it. I thought it was a great little moment. The whole sequence felt very born to me in a good way. I think down to the score too. The feel, the pace,

the chase, obviously being a big part of that. Even as you mentioned, like just the whole River Cartwright is coming back. Line delivery, all of that landed. My one criticism, I mean, this is a bad spy craft of the week,

when the dogs finally do see him going down the escalator, why are you given the oi? Like, why are you calling attention to the one person you're trying to avoid the attention of. I considered that for my bad use of Spightcraft. It was the

way. It was a real Marcus move from last week. And shout out Roddy for having these surveillance footage of Marcus crashing through the window. That's what friends are four really. It's just really good stuff. Anything else that we haven't got into that you want to get into? Well, at the

end of this chase, we get Frank on the phone. He has been foiled by the dog's appearance and backs off. understandably, gets on the phone and explains that he wants to know what the dogs know. And the way you may ask is by using the same means that got him David Cartwright's address in the first place, which Joe, Lord permitting, has to be Roddy's girlfriend, right? Oh, I love that. I wrote tantalizing. I didn't have a good theory, but I like the idea of, of, uh, do you, so are you saying you want Frank to be the girlfriend? I want a scene in episode five

of Frank flirtily texting with Roddy. Cat fishing, Roddy. Okay. It feels like that has to be where we're going. And we even get a little tease earlier in the episode when the dogs have showed up at Sloughhouse. And Roddy is the one person in the building. And so they call to get kind of like a status update on what's going on.

And he even mentions that beautiful women are his only weakness. And he mentions it, and specifically to Shiv Shirley a little bit, by saying that she is not one of these women. A lot. But I think we're really laying the groundwork for Roddy being manipulative. in exactly the way we've been anticipating that he might be. That's not a bad theory. Whatever it is, is one of those

tantalizing, like, sort of similar to when Patrice is like, that old man does not know what it's coming for him. I am coming. Then you're like, oh, no, it was Sam, not Jackson. Yeah, so same way we got Cartwright's address, you know,

is whatever we're going to see Frank do next week. And let's hope that Rob gets his wishes. You deserve it. it, Rob. Please, please. And then, I mean, like, we already talked about, so Patrice does this sort of, like, silent drop outside of Sam's office, a brutal kick to the face.

Shout out Sam for trying to hold his own by, like, taking the baton out. And then Patrice just, like, absolutely walloping him with it. Oh, my gosh. Tough stuff for Sam. And that's where we leave him. I appreciate that Slow Horses doesn't tiptoe around the violence, too. Like, when it's time to ramp up and for it to get gnarly, we're going to get gnarly. And look, the saws are out.

These are clearly a lot of people who are not to be trifled with involved in this season. I think they put the sows away. I like to think that they put the sauce back in the bag after Frank was like, this is silly. That was so much, so much work.

He took out so many saws. It was like Mary Poppins bag full of sauce. It was incredible. All right, before we go, just a couple things to do before we go to our interview with Will Smith. You already did your lamb shank of the week, and I agree with you.

best piece of spycraft, worst piece of spycraft. I will say for me, best, I'm going to give it to your girl, Gitti, because desk work counts as spycraft and her digging up the information despite the shredding party. Good job, Gitee. What a pleasure to have in class. Worst piece of spy craft, after all of his effort running through the train station, river just like dropping down from the attic without really properly checking that the coast is clear is a real tough look. Wait five minutes.

Yeah. Just a couple. Wait, wait for them to get down the block. Yeah. I think that has to be the worst. The Oli is very bad, but River almost having it and blowing it at the last moment. That's, that's tough. Do you have a best use? Did you already say it? I actually think it's River knowing on some level that he needs to go back to David's, to go, like that he has seen the mural somewhere before. It's like it's been eating at him. It's been at the back of his mind. I think there is something to the way that our spies process information where they have seen and know so much stuff. And in a way, in a way, this kind of connects to Sam Chapman, as soon as he starts piecing together, the puzzle of what's happening, he's like, oh, you're talking about Lesob. Like,

I know exactly the moment and the situation that got us here. Yeah. And River has all of this, like, noise in the back of his head from when he was a kid, including the art style of his apparent mother on her fish scales and it's just like trying to draw it over the course of this season so far. And so I'm going to give it to him for finally plucking that bit of recall of there is something

at David's house that this reminds me of. I love that. When you'll hear Will talk about that moment, that sort of connection a bit more in the interview. Our listener, Larry, also wrote in with the worst piece of spycraft, which I hadn't considered.

And he said, Jackson Lamb, driving the stolen conspicuously smashed up cab back to their headquarters. All right, and then last, our listener George set us a sort of thought experiment, which is, George wrote, which of Lamb's losers past or present, RIP men, do you think you'd pair best with and why? And George thinks Rob and Marcus would be a good pair because of the NBA betting line chatter. Rob, what do you think?

Who are you pairing up with at Slawhouse? Well, first of all, that's just me at this company every week. That is just the ringer.com, guessing the lines, various fan duel associations. I actually think it would be very counterproductive because Marcus would be grilling me for inside info, which I, of course, as an ethical journalist, would never provide to him. Right. But he would be distracted in a way where I don't want to be working with that guy when he's just trying to make bets on the side with his bookie when we're trying to get the job done. I think there is a clear answer here. And I think it's probably universal, but I definitely feel it's applicable to me.

it has to be Louisa It's definitely Louisa Hyper capable, very focused, serious about this shit in a way where she is not thinking that she's a superhero

all the time. I think the biggest crime of the season so far is how light it is on Louisa in general. I think that's an issue. I'm missing her. I did like the moment

in this week's episode though when I was like, wait a minute. I know that hair. Is that not the person who accosted me in the street? All right, yeah. Louisa,

agree the most confident person. That's who we want to be around. Definitely not Roddy. Definitely not Co. Nope. Not anyone with a drug habit. Not anyone with a gambling problem. Not River.

And one related bit of River trivia that I thought was interesting on a set deck front. Joe, you know I love to scour a bedroom. When we get into a character's bedroom, I'm looking for every detail. It sounds creepy, but it's true. This isn't a room Raider situation.

This is all in good fun. Yeah. We get our look into River childhood bedroom, at least presumably childhood teenage bedroom. He has what appears to be like a pinup of some woman in a bikini right above his bed that I am almost certain is from Dr. No. Like I'm almost certain that is an Ursula Andrus picture from Dr. No. And you can even say like a big no on text on the poster.

And good Lord, has there ever been a character who thought he was James Bond his whole life more than River Car Right? And that's exactly why I don't want to be paired with him. want someone who had a regular-ass life and is just very good at their job, but occasionally make mistakes, give me Louisa Guy. Team Louisa. Love it for us. Okay. Let us go now

to our conversation with Will Smith. I personally only have one episode specific question I wanted to ask you, which was a moment I really loved where River, you know, going through his box of memories, connects the mural at Lausau to like something

from his childhood and has this sort of seismic but silent realization of something. And I'm wondering if you can tell me how much of that is on the page, how much is that is Adam, and how much of that is Jack when you put together a moment like that?

Oh, that's really interesting. I mean, it's definitely, as far as I can recall, you know, on the page is, I mean, I don't think we reveal on the page and the script the significance of it, but it's like it hits him

and Jack obviously knows in that moment what he's conveying. So it's, it's, Jack's performance, Adam's direction, you know, from the script. Plus, I think what really helped was the design of that mural because it was such a specific thing when we eventually landed on how can we show

without tipping it, but it's sort of intriguing, but it's got to be enough of a detail that you know that's something. And so it was part of that. The mural was something slightly off and creepy about it anyway, but it's the way, I think it's the way Adam shoots it with Jack coming in and looking at it, then you cut to it and just sort of Jack's quite small in the frame. And then I think Jack's reaction, I think that that's, you know, I'm talking about it too now, actually, really, which he hasn't it for,

which, like, you know, you can sense there's something significant about it, but he can't figure out what it is. It's like it's stirring something in him. And obviously, you know it's significant because he takes a photo of it, and then he's asking people about it. And then it's then when you go and you see it's the same artist, then you know, at that point you're thinking, well, the person who drew that also is someone from his past,

and then given the discussions they've had about, you know, bothering children at that place, it's probably, you know, you're probably on the way to the reveal. Well, River as a character is pretty astute to even go back to that box in the first place and to have that instinct that this is something worth digging up. And I think episode four is a great kind of spotlight of something that Joe and I love talking about, which is the good and bad of Spycraft on Slow Horses, the idea that these are people who make big mistakes,

and big blunders, but River can also be very clever until the moment he gets caught and until he starts falling into it. And so how do you find that balance in a show that is anchored to these sorts of, really at its core, like underdog screw-up kind of characters? Well, I think it's part, it's the way Mick writes the books in that it's sort of subverting the genre. So you've got a hero who isn't as good as you think he is and never gets the girl. There's no kind of romance, or there might be hints of romance, but it's, you know, it never comes together.

And so you're already supporting the genre there. And Jack, I mean, he's a brilliant actor, you know, across any genre, but he is an incredibly skilled comic actor, and he loves the idea that a river messing up. And like, he enjoys the kind of, you know, that side of the character, you know, the overreach of River. But as you say, he, you know, he does do some brilliant things. Like he, he fakes his own death and manages to evade. And I find he is really, really good. But as regards to the kind of him twigging that that mural is something to do with his past, I mean, that was something we definitely, we discussed with Jack, that, yeah, that River, it's sort of like he, he, he kind of

probably knows more than he's letting onto himself at that point. Like, I think he's fighting the truth across the series. Well, while we're digging into truth that we may or may not be able to accept and have buried in the back of our minds, when the man we know is Adam Lockhead shows up at David Carr Wright's place in episode one, we have to know, did Jack Loudon do his voice? Yes, he did. And we actually had Jack wearing for aesthetics and, you know, looking different. And like in the passport photo, that's Jack.

And Lucy Cibick, our Oscar-winning hair and makeup designer, did this absolutely brilliant job. of Jack. And so we actually, there was originally as scripted and we shot it, you saw Adam Lockhead and you knew something was off, but it felt like actually if you if you see enough of him, you probably, it's sort of like River

and not quite like River and because we wanted to sell the kind of river's dead, we kind of you just don't see it as close as you don't really see that body until it's got his face shot off. Because I mean, it's an incredibly difficult thing to kind of work out how we do just because like it's brilliant in the book, but it's all in David's

It's like, you know, Rick, but it doesn't look like rubber, but it is rubber. And then bang, and then you're like, oh, you know, how do we do that without giving it away that it isn't river? And, you know, so it was a lot of kind of taking it all one way and then the other and then settling somewhere in the middle with it really. But, but yeah, but Jack did a voice, he did a voice that was just off. Like when he goes up the stairs and he's sort of saying, you know, oh, the weather was awful. It was, you know, he really played with that. And at one point, I think there was a hint of French in one of the words and stuff. But it just, it just sounds. off enough that Jonathan is thinking something's up, but the audience isn't yet up to speed with it, I think. But it was a very difficult balancing act that I think we pulled off. I mean, definitely. I think exactly what you say. When you adapt something from the book to the screen, you lose that subjectivity of the point of view of the narrator.

And I think what's interesting to me, when you or Gary or anyone else talk about this as an act of adaptation, you're so devotedly faithful to the book. You're often deferring to this sort of like, well, that's just Mick. That's just, Mick wrote it that way. That's just how, you know, we're going to do it. Oftentimes, adopters are tempted to make larger changes.

I'm just curious, sort of how you decided to be so faithful, and has that ever put you in a tight spot. No, I mean, it's just we all really love the books. And then, you know, you just think, well, why are we doing it? If we're not going to be faithful to the book, Just make it up. I mean, it's like, you know, and also mixed, you know, mixed dialogue is very, it reminds me a lot. It's very like John Kennedy Tool, where the Confederacy of Dunces, where you read it.

And it would be page after page of, you know, dialogue. But he's not stopping to tell you who's speaking because he doesn't need to because they're all so distinctive and it just rolls off. So it's like, and the way he writes the chapters, he'll sort of, he'll cut kind of, you know, these little mini cliffhangers within the chapters. So it's quite television in that way. And I don't think he didn't write it thinking of, or he says he didn't. but it's like it has a sort of rhythm to it that kind of lends itself to the medium in the first place and then I think once we settled on it being six episodes which which um two of our execs graemeoast really held the line on that that it you know it needed to be six and so did um dugabanski

is it's like and i think that that was really helpful because then you're you're not padding it and you can expand stories but i just think stories have their own they have a natural length and inbuilt, that's how long that story should be. And I think if you start, if you had to do these books in 10 episodes, you know, I think partly because they're usually over two or three days, then that you can't really sustain that. It just, that would just be too odd to the timeline would, you start to feel like you make it in real time or something, which it just wouldn't, it wouldn't work. And then you'd have to sort of, the very propulsive narratives. And I think if you stop, I just think it would sag. And so I just think what Mick did works in the

book. So we just try and do the television version of that. And where we change it, we try and be as faithful as possible to the spirit of the story and the characters and just sort of, you know, build out so that it's, you know, it's still got the book at the heart. Well, on that adaptation front, I want to ask you specifically about Frank Harkness, who we get our first sort of quality time with, I would say, in this episode, episode four. As you're adapting the framework of these novels, How do you think about the reveal around like that sort of antagonist and when to start peeling back the layers from, okay, we get the menace up top of what Frank seems like on first blush,

but as we're getting more and more information, more and more reveals, kind of rounding out that character, how do you paste that out over six episodes? I mean, my memory is that, you know, we just, we knew what we were building to, and so like I say, it's not tipping that off, and it's having that land as the kind of the biggest moment, and then it's just laying enough kind of breadcrumbs that in retrospect it all seems to connect.

But it's definitely, I mean, it's partly because you're sort of holding him off anyway just because of the way the story works that, you know, River knows somebody's come from France, he's got to go to France, and then that's where they connect there. But again, we had a lot of discussion about how much exchange they should have there and how we can engineer it. So they come together, have that fight, but they don't talk to the point where they work at who each other is, and then Frank's off, and then Frank's in London.

And then I think in the book he's much more. he's in London basically to meet River. And what we added in was the kind of, he's gone to clear up the mess. And the kind of, the kind of, and then the client is kind of angry. And so we put that,

we put that in to give an extra reason for Frank going there. And then also we wanted to just show Frank under the hammer. You know, you've got this, and then you've got like, all right, he might die if he doesn't do this. And it just,

and it's helped to expand Frank's world and kind of explain filling in the blanks to who he is. So you just sort of, it was just fun. Like the first, I think he's just a voice on the phone. and then he's somebody looking out the window at river

and then he's somebody fighting with the river and then like you say, I think it's at four it's when he goes in to meet the guy who hired and to kill his brother at West Acres and it's all gone wrong. That's where you really start to sort of get a sense of who he is. Hugo Ewing is such an interesting get for this role.

You've had some great guest stars in the past. We love sort of the Catherine Waterson fake out in a previous season. I love Catherine McCormick, like, showing up because I'm a huge thing of hers. But like, Hugo is like a season-long antagonist feels like sort of a step in a different direction for slow horses. Are you hearing from more and more people that they just want to be part of the show

because its profile is sort of people, more people are catching on to how great the show is and they want to be part of it. We do, yeah, I mean, like anecdotally, then in interviews, like I said, it completely blew me away that Billy Crudup said that, you know, his favorite show was slow horses and he wanted to be in it. Or I think it was if you could be in any other show than the motion. Yeah. When he says, low horses, I'm like, oh, my God. I mean, you know, it's just nobody. So, yeah, it does, it's certainly, I mean, I think it's, you know, from the start, when we got Gary, it's like that, that kind of makes everyone want to be in it.

And that's how you get Kristen and, you know, Jonathan and all these people. And then as we've gone on, it's like you can have these amazing guest stars. And, I mean, Hugo was on my mind from the start for, I mean, I don't want to give the spoiler away as to why I thought of him. I had sort of personal reasons as well because he's actually my mum's cousin. Is he? Yeah, and so he's family and, you know, I've sort of, you know, met up with him over the years and, you know, he's obviously amazing and just like a, you know, and I thought, oh, it would be cool to work with Hugo. Season four is just a family affair in every respect. Cousin Hugo, okay, I love it.

Yeah, but then I didn't tell, I didn't tell production or the casting director when we were kind of like going after him because I thought it would just be odd and they'd think I was just doing it for that reason or whatever, so I'd leave it. But then it was equally odd afterwards when they all said, yeah, apparently he's your cousin. Did you know that? I was like, yes, I knew that. And they're like, why didn't you tell us? I'm like, yeah, it's a bit odd. It was a nice link.

And it was wonderful to work with him because he's just, you know, he's phenomenal. And he's so great in the role. And, you know, like everyone, everyone we cast, you think, I can't imagine anyone else ever doing that. It's just that they so become the characters. It's exciting that he's a part of it. It's exciting to hear that other actors like Billy Crudev also want to be a part of

slow horses. I imagine for them and in the long list of people who I hope want to work on the show, though, there's the downside of if they do want to join, they're joining two seasons down the line because you're always kind of churning through these. I'm curious from your perspective, how you juggle and manage having what I assume is a season in filming and a season in the edit basically at all times. Like how do you juggle all that? It's quite intense at one point. Like when we were doing the room, to give an example of how it works, like we were doing the room last February it was for, Yeah, no, year last February. Where are we now?

It's September. Anyway, in February of one year, I was doing the room for series five as we're about to start shooting series four and we're editing series three. So I'll be in the room and at the same time as I'm breaking the story with the other writers for five,

I'm sort of responding to notes from actors and directors and, you know, location managers on four and then we'll be watching cuts of three and feeding into that. And then once we start shooting four, them we're writing five. So it's sort of a kind of multiple conveyor belt, spinning plates on a conveyor belt. But the upside of that is you're constantly in the show and you're thinking about it. And so although you are having to jump across each season, you're kind of very

connected to the actors in terms of where they're at and the directors. And, you know, so it's a very, I mean, a rich process is a sort of positive way and, you know, saying it's full of screaming pressure. But I think it's everybody is so great. on the show that the crew are fantastic and everybody's making the same show and everybody is just at the top of their game that you don't have to worry about is that big sorted, is that, you know,

it's like, I just think that there's, you know, the production designers and the set dresses are so amazing because especially as we go forward and they have to build sets for the character's houses or flats or rooms or whatever and there's, yeah, there's a little discussion before but not a great tell. I mean, we did discuss with Gary, you know,

at his flat or what it would feel like And he had the great note that it's full of books and that, you know, Lamb's a voracious reader, which I think really fits with, you know, the lamb's massive brain. But other than that, you know, the designers will just sort of off of the scripts, they will kind of build these sets. And the actors always go on to the sets, which are fully dressed. And they always just go, yeah, this is where I live and this is my stuff. It just, it always seems to connect.

They don't go on and go, that's off. It's just to go, wow. And it just, but that's, I just think, you know, the, Choi Herman and Camman who designed the sets and dressed them. They're so they're so keyed in to the scripts and what the director feels for it as well, that it just all comes together. So I just feel very, very lucky that, you know,

the caliber of people working on the show. Did you have any favorite details from our first glimpses of Catherine Standish's apartment in this season in her flat? Did you have any things about her space that stuck out to you? Yeah, there's a jigsaw puzzle on the go, which, you know, I think is a, Character detail.

Yeah, yeah, it was that. And the choice of books as well is really, it's very specific. And it just, it just feels Catherine. It's just like you just go, yeah, that's just as I think, you know, Sloughhouse is, you know, physical representation of lamb. But I mean, Gary will talk, you know, again, about the first take he ever did when he's looking out the window down at Catherine crossing the road. So he's looking out of the set of Sloughhouse and looking down and seeing two dead flies that they put in.

that no one sees on camera and that, you know, it doesn't matter, but for him, it's just like, ah, you know, they've got bits of, like, ripped tinsle on the ceiling where they've kind of pulled it down, but the tape and the end of the tinsel is up there, and nobody's bothered to get up on a ladder and take it down. And again, it's off camera, you know, you know, but it just is all part of the immersive sense of the sets,

which just elevate it to everything. Rob and I have been fans of the show sort of since the beginning, but this is the first season we've been covering it in granular detail, so it's been really rewarding to sort of pour, over it as a text rather than just sort of watch it as fans. And something that we were, we hadn't paid enough attention to was the timeline of the show that it set sort of in the recent past. And I was curious, you know, so like that Min's placard says 2016 on it.

Oh, yeah. And so we were wondering sort of, other than the idea of sort of keeping pace with where the books are sets, what was the idea behind setting in this time period? Is there a certain moment in history you're trying to capture, or what was the idea behind that? That is so fantastic you've noticed that because so much time goes into people going, right, okay, now what make a phone would they have in 2018?

The number of plates and everything, you know, and there's a lot of people going, does it matter? It's like, you know, yes. But originally, I think the first one is 2016, and I think we started filming it December 2020, I think. And it's basically, because, I mean, I can't remember the year the books came up.

Basically, obviously, the series is being filmed after the books, and we just wanted it so that you could believe that Gary Lamb had actually spent some time behind the Berlin Wall. Right. He could be young, you know, like late 20s or whatever, so that he could have done that and that he's the age he is when we meet him in the show. So that is the reason for that setting is really just to sort of, so that we can buy that happens.

I know. That's amazing you spotted that. Diana Tavener had a line like the end of the Cold War 28 years ago and then I was like oh no, am I terrible at history or my timeline on? What's going on?

Thank you. Where am I? Well, the more that we watch, the more I find myself really relishing the lamb and tavernor scenes, maybe it's just because there's less and less opportunity for them to kind of bump against each other directly,

but they're such a perfect pair in so many ways. And I'm curious what you think it is about the alchemy of that relationship that really just makes it kind of pop on screen the way it does. I mean, well, they're both amazing actors individually, obviously.

They've worked together before, so they have a chemistry and a rapport, they know and like each other's rhythms. And I think on a basic level, I think the contrast between dishevelled, disgusting, smelly old lamb and kind of elegant, pristine Diana Tavana,

you instantly go, that's fun. That's out of whack. That's asymmetrical. wearing. And then it's just the fun of, it's the sort of nature of the characters that, you know, they kind of, they have a respect for each other. They're wary of each other. You know, there's a sort of affection. I don't, like, Gary will say they're like an old married couple. It's sort of, I don't know if they like each other, but I think they

find each other interesting and challenging and they probably get off on that. So it's, it's sort of all of that in the swirl of it. And then, and then, there's always just the fun that the nature of those scenes will always be that one or both are withholding information and the other is kind of trying to tease it out of them or kind of, you know, evade them in some way. And so you could just have a fun dance with the dialogue, really. And, yeah, I mean, the challenge of those scenes, again, is not to repeat and not, you know, obviously the audience want them, the actors want them. You know, we all want it, but you don't want it to be exactly the same.

You know, that's why, you know, we always think they always meet on the bench, but actually I think, yeah, they meet on the bench in Series 1 where they sit down. Series 2, they go to a different bench, sit for a bit, then walk. Series 3, they go back to the bench,

but it's been taken away. And then four, she has to come to him, which is the first time she's been to Slan House. Then towards the end of the series, she actually goes in to Slan House and she only goes up to the kitchen for various reasons. And then in season 5, we actually have her finally going right up to his office.

So it's a fun to see her in his domain. Yeah, stormy the castle. He's been in her office as well at the end of the series two, but it's fun and in series one. So it's fun to see her where you don't expect. And obviously she does not fit or belong into our house. So that's another fun contrast. I wanted to talk to you about the advantage of thinking many seasons down the road at all times.

You also have the text of the books. You know sort of when there's going to be a payoff. So when we get a character like Bad Sam Chapman, who sort of comes to the four in this season, but you get to seed him in earlier season, so this isn't the first time we've seen him, that's an advantage that many people don't have, that they can drop those little breadcrumbs.

So how much are you always thinking about, well, that character's going to crop up three books from now, so we need to make sure that the audience is familiar with them? I mean, that's always the case. And even if, like, sometimes they might skip a book, and so you want to have them in there. Like David's dementia starts in book four, but because we knew that was coming,

we thought, because I don't think Mick, Mick didn't know that when he was writing book three, but now we know that's coming. We were like, well, let's prefigure that in three, so it doesn't feel, so it doesn't feel like it's coming out nowhere, not that it does in the books at all, because you have a time jump, and that's fine.

But it just means we can get more out of the river David's scenes. They could feel a little different to the previous scenes, because I just like the sort of, the River David Ark, I think, is a really wonderful and painful kind of arc that we got across the series of his, you know, David's decline and River seeing his grandfather in a different light and he's not quite the hero he thought he was. And then Sam, I think Sam is in, I don't think he's in, no, he's not in one and then he's in two. And then I think we put him in three because we knew he was coming in four, I think. And then Judd as well, we've brought Judd forward in one of the

books and stuff because you just want to kind of keep the balls in the air really with with it. And it wasn't because it's just like we just got such a wonderful, you know, kind of load of characters now that we can draw from. But Sam is great. I really like the way that turned out. And I was, you know, and also just seeing Lamb with somebody who he doesn't hate. I mean, there's kind of Sam and Molly. It's great.

Sam is great as a character in his own right, but he's also great to just show a different side of Lamb in the way that Molly is a fantastically intriguing character played by a wonderful actress but it's also great because you're like Lamb is sort of rude to her but it's in a different tone. It's like he doesn't seem to be wanting to hurt her when he insults her in the way that he is when he would insult men or someone where he kind of

feels he means that he's trying to diminish him. It's like there's something weirdly affectionate about the way he has a go at Molly and the fact that she'll insult him and he just sort of shrugs it off and you see oh they've obviously got some kind of understanding some shared history and you just there's just a backstory there

waiting to be explored, which thankfully Mick does it in The Secret Hours, which would be a great film or limited series to do. As a viewer, that's what it feels like. It feels very lived in. It feels like there's this rich history between these characters. And like Bad Sam Chapman, as you say, threading him through the show is kind of the tinsel hanging from the ceiling. It like helps us know that there's a world there.

But it's also been really exciting in Series 4 to see completely new kinds of characters who we've never had any introduction with. And I think Claude in particular is just, such a totally different character type. And we've really loved what he has brought to the park. But I'm curious for you in shaping the show and crafting the show and writing those scenes, like what is having this sort of bumbling big picture consultant type

in that environment do to kind of change the construction of what you're able to do within MI5? Well, it just changes up the kind of dynamic like we had, Igrid Tierney, the wonderful Sophia Kinano playing, the kind of Tamla's boss in, she was in one and three. And she was just like just on top of it and perceptive and ruthless and, you know, could just do the job. And so it just felt fun.

I mean, you know, I think we probably, he's more bumbling than the book is my memory. But having someone in there who shouldn't be in the job just felt fun. And also to frustrate Tamla because we leave Tamla at the end of three going, hey, I've got the top job, here I go. And then you start. series four with like, oh, she hasn't got it. And so... She didn't apply, though.

Don't worry about it. She didn't apply. Do not bother. No, so it just felt it's just great to frustrate. You know, that's just the basic thing of one of the characters, why don't they get it? And it's just like, oh, let's frustrate that. And then also it's a different kind of energy for Kristen to playoff,

which I think she really, really enjoyed is, you know, and it sort of spoke to lots of people, but I'm sure it speaks to women more of like, you know, I should be promoted and this idiot man has got the job over me. And so it sort of has that kind of, oh, God. You know, it rings true. And James Callis is just, you know, I was such a fan from Balfour Galactica and, you know,

loads of other things. And then again, you know, straight away, I was like, oh, could we get James Callis? And we did. I got him. just got him and he's just, he just was able to walk that line as well where the guy's obviously out with depth and clueless, but you still kind of understand why he got the job. And, you know, and our thinking was, you know, because we had discussions with James and Christian about this,

is like, why has he got the job? And it's like, well, because he reminds the people who appointed him of themselves, you know, he, you know, because they're all kind of a useless layer of bureaucracy. So they want someone like them and they think he can do the job. He'll answer to them, they can control them, whereas if they get somebody who actually knows more than them, they've got nowhere to hide. So it's that, you know, it's just how these kind of big bureaucracies function to some extent. So it felt even though he's kind of, you know, a kind of ludicrous clown, hopefully you still believe, oh my God, I can't believe they've given him the job, but you believe they've given him the job. It's something I've heard Gary say in a bunch of different

interviews, this idea that the comfort of the show is how the characters don't change. That, you know, he references something like Columbo, right? Where it's just sort of the serialized show where you're so excited to come back. And Jackson Lamb is just as irascible and disgusting as he always is. But in a TV series, I think we don't want zero change from our characters. And so there are relationships that seem to deepen in change. you get sort of like River and Louisa and the deepening of their connection, or the changing of Jackson and Catherine as she learns about Charles and all that sort of stuff like that.

So I'm wondering how you think about that in terms of the comfort and consistency of River is always going to rush headlong into something that he is ill-equipped for with that, like the micro-evolutions. Or you mentioned, of course, David and River and how their dynamic. I mean, I think what's interesting, I think Lamb is a fascinating. character in his own right. But he's sort of interesting in TV drama terms because, as you say, Lamb doesn't really change. And essentially, his character arc is, you know, in his backstory that we're meeting

him at the end of his career where he's, you know, these experiences that have turned him into the, you know, monstrous asshole we know and love. So it's like what you kind of think, what made you, who hurt you? What made you this way? is kind of, and that's what we can sort of reveal incrementally. It's like, you know, oh, he had to, turns out his best friend and mentor was a traitor and he had to blow his head off. That'll mess you up.

All right. Now I know, way, you know, so it's, you know, but it takes an actor of Gary's stature and confidence to play and to enjoy playing a character where he's not going to develop, but in the way that you would expect a character to develop, but he's, you know, but he can play the depth of Lamb's experience and he can kind of show because that's what he, Gary is such a transformative actor and such a chameleon that you feel the weight of Lance's experience. He's battered and you don't know the details of what he's been through but you know

he's been through stuff. Whereas the others I do, I do think they change a bit more but their, I mean their traits are still there like, Ho is not going to become self-aware anytime soon. But the others are what I love And I, you know, what the, I think what the cast like as well is that they, it doesn't sort of, they are the same, but it doesn't reset in that, you know, they're weathering the scars of previous seasons. Like, Louisa was still struggling with men's loss and, you know, she's struggling with, you know, nearly dying the facility was, had an impact on her. And then what happens in four has an impact. And then that has, you know, consequences in series five for Louisa. That's what I love about the show.

It's like they, they have their main story missions to do. do and at the same time they're all dealing with stuff. They're all dealing with their own personal issues. And that, I think, humanises them and makes, I think that's why audiences connect with them and engage with them because they feel, and they always feel to me, you know, very multifaceted. They feel like real people, which I, you should be a given, really,

but it often isn't reading books or watching things. And it's, I never feel I'm watching a performance with these actors. I just, I'm watching the character. You know, it's, it's a magic that they have. That, you know, when I'm at the monitors, it's like, I'm just watching the show. It's already there. They're just bring it alive.

Gary as Jackson, I would say, is especially that, as you say, very transformative actor, very transformative performance. And with Lamb in particular, him being such a slob, him using, I have to say, a first for me and anything I've ever seen, fart as defense mechanism is a new one for me. And I particularly enjoy it. Even though we know that he is an incredibly capable spy, and he's good at using those things to his advantage,

the impression people have of him to his advantage. Maybe this is tipping into your understanding of the books and the backstory a little more than ours, but do you see Lamb as someone who has always been this sort of Slav? Is that always been part of his character? Or was there a fine young buttoned-up, MI5 agent at some point in him? That's a really interesting question

that I should really kind of partially defer to Mick. I mean, like I say, there's a prequel or a book that's set in the present but flashes back to Lamb and Molly in kind of post-Wall Berlin. And Lamb there, he sort of has the same attitude and he's drinking and smoking, but he's not quite as, he's not quite as broken. I mean, in the books you get the sense he's sort of probably always been like this. But again, this is something that's not in the books that I discussed with Gary and Gary discussed with Mick and gave his blessing to was the idea that probably Lamb had had a partner at some point, maybe even been married, and the job broke the marriage or the relationship. And that he came back one time and she'd just gone. So there's a kind of, and that's not in the books, but that's the thing for Gary to sort of carry as an actor, that there's a brokenness, you know, there within Lamb. So I think he's always probably,

I don't know if he's ever completely wide-eyed, but, you know, but he's always not quite fitted in that we and Gary thought he's probably red brick rather than Oxbridge and all the other spies are Oxbridge. So he was probably, you know, at that era, be grammar school. So he's kind of like working class background, autodidacted, probably bright, naturally brilliant, naturally brilliant, naturally better than any of the people around him.

And so he's sort of isolated classwise, never quite fitted. So I think he's always had that maverick side to him. But in terms of like, I think he did dress better, yeah. I think now he's like completely... Well, the bar is pretty low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the thing that Gary loves, he loves that texture of, you know, the grime and the dirt and the sloppishness.

And he revels in that. And he'll happily have his belly hanging out or take his top off and just it's just he just luxurates in the kind of, you know, the disgust, disgusting spectacle of land. But like I say, it's intriguing. You just, you just kind of go, people, well, people within the show kind of, you know, like you say, make the mistake of looking at him and just dismissing him, you know, and he uses, he does use it to disarm and to deflect.

You know, that's where he does to flight in, you know, when he's, and he's like, you know, he is hung over, but he's acting a bit more out of it than he actually is, and he's farting and just so she'll just sort of take him at his word when he says, yeah, it's river, because he just doesn't seem like he's that sharp and that focused, and he's not, she's not aware he's playing any games. But I don't think he kind of purposefully maintains a kind of disgusting, you know, kind of... And he takes advantage of it.

Yeah, it's not like he's doing it because, oh, I might need this. It's like he genuinely, I think he says in series one, he just wants to sit behind the desk and just, you know, and run down the clock and not be bothered and just not, not, have to, you know, expose himself anymore to the kind of pain and misery of Spygraft. I'm glad you mentioned Flight, our girl Emma, who we've been rooting for, finally got a win in this episode and episode of four. We were like, finally, Emma, okay. Thank you.

But also on the marriage front, so he's had this relationship of his past, has broken up, but he's got this work marriage of source with Catherine. And I wanted to ask you about that because I think it's so, interesting when we rewatch the whole show to prepare for covering this season, Diana Taviner identifying Catherine Sandish as a weak point for Lamb really early in season one. And we know that he's carrying, now we know all about the guilt he's carrying around Charles and what happened there. Aside from that, what is it about Catherine that makes her such a sort of fixation in a way for for Lamb?

I think it's a complicated mix of wanting to protect her from what happened. And in a twisted way, the kind of offering her alcohol, which is a repulsive thing to do to an alcoholic, and we were kind of like, oh, God, this is pretty harsh. But the kind of logic behind it in sort of mine and Gary's head is testing that she's on the wagon and that she's strong enough to resist. And it's unorthodox. You know, it's hard to see it as caring. But it is like he's just pushing her to an extreme of just when he does that.

And then I think, and I haven't properly discussed this Gary, so he may completely disagree. But I've started to feel that it's also, when he does lash out of her, you know, having said, he's checking she's on the wag. And I think there's self-loathing in there as well, and that she was fooled by Charles. And so was he. So it's kind of like he's having a, he's sort of,

take it out on her, his own kind of frustration and guilt and shame and hurt that he didn't see it and that he felt used. And there's probably a bit of, oh, you and I are in the same boat. Oh, that's embarrassing. I can't believe I'm, you know, on your level. Even though he thinks Catherine is smarter than most and bright, it's still, it's a sort of, I mean, the whole Charles part of the thing is just a running sore for both of them that they've never properly talked about. and she still doesn't know the full picture and didn't know half of it for, you know, years. And it's just a thing that they're both painfully working through

with each other and they seem locked in that co-dependencies. They struggle to come to terms with what happened and to accept the truth. And, you know, and for him, I think he also thinks, you know, it's like he doesn't want her to blame herself for it because it wasn't her fault, but also I think it annoys him. It annoys him how much she, and that happened in series three,

that how she reveres Charles and just that jest he just snapped he couldn't hear it anymore. So I think it's just to me it's just and that's what I love about it. It's just a very, very messy situation. There's nothing clean about it

and there's no really good outcome. And I just think that makes a really interesting drama. Yeah, some of those jabs at Catherine, I'm not proud of myself for laughing at them, but I'm laughing at them. You know, especially about her misplacing a bottle.

Like there's something that really get me. And I mean, you've made a career out of writing on shows with these sorts of asshole figures or cantankerous figures or at least pleasant grumps in their way. And I'm curious for you what you get out of that process, what you enjoy about, like, how do you find delight in writing assholes? I don't know. I do seem to be able to do it.

Maybe it's just because, you know, I just do, I just, I don't have to be like that in real life. I can just put it all into words. But I don't know, but I like to, I mean, the way I write and the way I, what I like about writing is really, you know, it's going to sound cliche, but it is just putting yourself in other people's shoes, putting yourself behind the eyes and that and that and just connecting with the viewpoint. But I mean, there's definitely writing those just horrible assholes. It's just something very liberating about you just take the filter off and you just, and it just kind of

rolls out and you just sort of breaking all the rules. And I'm sure that's partly why they're fun to play. It's like, you just don't get to behave like this. So you don't get to behave like that, you don't get to write like that. You don't get to express yourself like that. And so it's just a sort of guilty pleasure probably in some way. I love that. It sounds very therapeutic. Thank you so much for the time. We really, really appreciate it. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for all the lovely things you said about the show. Thank you so much for the support. You've shown the show and for spreading the word.

That is it for season two, episode four of Slow Horses. Thanks to Will Smith. Thanks to Kaye Grady. Thanks to Justin Sales. Thanks to Rob Mahoney. Thanks to our listeners for all your incredible emails. Definitely. And that was only sort of like the tip of the iceberg. You guys have been really doing it. So I really appreciate it.

They keep them coming. We only have two more weeks. Sad. But we are already considering what we're going to do next. So stay tuned for that. And we'll see you next week. Bye.