The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Slow Horses’ Season 5 Finale Recap

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

Jo and Rob are back to break down the Season 5 finale of ‘Slow Horses,' look back at the season as a whole, and consider what the future has in store for the beloved series. Email us! [e-mail] Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Prestige TV Podcast’ and so much more! Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kevin Pooler Additional Production Support: Justin Sayles and Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today, it feels like for the first time just the two of us in a very long time.

It's Rob Mahoney, back from the dead. Rob Mahoney, how are you doing? I'm doing well, Joe. I like to think that it's not just you and I. It's you and I and all the buzzy, buzzy bees out there. You know, we're really part of a larger hive. Fair enough. We're here to wrap up our spotty coverage of Slow Horses Season 5.

Sorry that we've been on again, off again a bit this season. There's a lot going on. and... Yes. Please forgive me in particular, as you can probably hear and have heard, I have been on the brink of death. But I am back. I have risen. Yeah.

I mean, I simply could not be held down from talking about slow horses for that long. It's true. It's true. Rob was very gracious about me doing the pod last week with someone else, but he's like, please, please, I want to do the finale. And of course, like, why would I want to do the finale with anyone else? You know what I'm not gracious about, though, Joe? That we waited, and I say we, when I mean you, until I was gone, to have Alan said,

and while on the podcast, just extremely messed up. Well, let's have Alan back and you can hang out. One of the greats. Alan was very gracious to come on last week for not just a chat about slow horses, but like sort of a state of Apple TV Plus and stuff like that. Great stuff because Alan is like an absolute legend in the best and really good to talk to. But Rob, I've missed you. I've missed talking to you about television.

So here we are to talk about wrap up slow horses. Really quick programming reminders. Rob and I are, so we're wrapping up slow horses. this today and then next week at the end of next week will be the beginning of Pluribus. We're just staying on Apple. We're just staying in the Apple Orchard with everyone else. Pluribus is doing a two-episode premiere on November 7th and this is the new show from Vince Gilligan. Rob, anything you want to say about Pluribus? Like, why we're covering it, why you're excited, anything like that. I mean, I just think the names Vince Gilligan and Ria Seahorn

we should also add is just enough to basically get us to sign up for almost any show. But I have not dug into the episodes yet. I believe you have, Joe, seen the screener for Pluribus, right? Just the first episode. But we'll be covering two episodes on November 7th, so I still have one to watch. Good to keep a little ahead, but, I mean, your initial excitement, it really did get me pumped about the show. I watched it just to sort of see if we wanted to cover it in the first place. Not that I doubt it it would be great, but just sort of like to see.

And then I just thought it was amazing. So I'm very, very excited about that. So we will be covering that week to week Unless one of us gets another Deathly Disease or something like that And then we'll see what happens to us And then as always, even though we're wrapping up the season You can always reach us at two email addresses

For Slow Horses, Rob, what are they? You can always reach us at PrestigetV at Spotify.com But in particular for Slow Horses at Arstime, the Pope Atgmail.com And I mean, get them in while you can. You know, slow horses will be back, presumably quite soon, as is the show's custom. But we love getting the slow horses emails to that address in particular. So we're going to do sort of like a big picture. I'm curious because I haven't talked

to Rob about, you know, all like the last four episodes that he's watched. So we're going to do sort of a bigger season check in with Rob. We're going to talk about this episode, of course. And then there is, as is a tradition, a trailer for season six attached to the end of this episode. So including some faces I'm very, very, very, very, very excited about. It feels like maybe custom built in a lab just for me, so thank you so much, low horses. So we will talk about that when we get there. I definitely texted Mallory Rubin and Chris Ryan some blurry screenshots of people, and I was like, oh my God, oh my God, I'm so excited. All right, so scars is the name of this episode. We were having a chat before we started recording about what we thought this episode title meant.

Rob, would you care to share the class what we came with? I mean, I think the obvious one is sort of the geopolitical scars that exist between, you know, countries like England and the greater United Kingdom, any like colonial nation, and, you know, places like Libya and the people who live there. Like, that one seems right there are top of the page. It's so funny. That was Rob's first instinct. And my instinct was like, is it not the literal scars on the bottom of Jackson's Lamb's feet that close the episode? Jesus Christ. So two interpretations of this title. I mean, we love an episode title that means a number of things. And I'm sure it means emotional, geopolitical, all these other scars. And of course, those scars on Jackson Lamb

lamb's feet are indicative of a larger emotional scar given that story that he told earlier this season about his alleged Joe who was tortured and had his feet, you know, burned. And there was a question about whether or not he was talking about himself. I didn't think there was much question based on his performance. But there was some question. And I saw because it's not clear in the book that he's talking about himself. this scene takes place in a different book. The book readers were very active about this on Reddit,

and they were just sort of like, I don't think he's talking about himself. And the people watching the show, I think, were just like, but based on the performances, and it seemed like he's talking about himself. And I think this, you know, I mean, we know that the shot at the end of this episode makes no doubt as to whether or not he was talking about himself. And something I kind of want to start there,

even though it's the closing image of the episode, because, well, I just want to start there and then get your, your bigger picture ideas on the season, but I want to say that what this season has given us in terms of that insight into Jackson's backstory and the foundation of who he is.

And also thinking about like the promo image for the season is him with his socked feet up on the desk. Like one toe poking out of the sock. But like his his socked feet propped up on the desk, which is like, you know, one of his favorite positions to take, is the promo image.

for this season. And so the idea that they're like stripping off the probably nastiest smelling sock you've ever experienced in your life. I can't even fathom it. To show you the mess that is underneath and doing the same with Jackson Lamb, a character who has been a bit inscrutable for us in this series. I think it's really interesting. So what was your experience with the season as a whole?

And what do you make of this sort of extra insight into Jackson? I thought it was a pretty fun season, you know, lean and simple. And like maybe in some spots, like, a lot. little too simple, but I think slow horses does operate in that sort of register. You know, this is a show and a world that I don't know that it has like a lot more to say about politics than like, hey, aren't both of these guys kind of like hollow shells of people who are just like channeling bullshit for their various causes? Isn't that kind of funny? And poking holes and like poking fun at that sort of thing. That's totally fine. Like to me, this is a show that knows exactly what it is,

knows the registers it wants to operate in. And I think showed with this season, it's just like infinitely watchable and repeatable. Like, I will just, I will consume this sort of pulp spy craft all day, every day, every season for as long as they want to make it. And, you know, Will Smith may not be long for this particular universe, but Gary Oldman certainly seems to be. And so as far as the Lamb part of that goes, I mean, I love the idea of peeling back some of the layers of that character.

And not just that, but I think seeing it in a way where it's like, lamb being so repulsive is such a put on, right? is a means of putting distance between him and other people. And so like the literalization of his gross sock being the thing that is preventing people from knowing the shit that he has been through, that feels like a perfect character moment for me. I love that. And I think to go back to sort of our different interpretations of scars, I think it's worth thinking about the way in which these are all connected because it all comes back to David Cartwright.

You know, Jonathan Price is instrumental in this episode. but, you know, in season four, Lamb said that he used to have a heart before working for David Carwright. And so so much of his mental and emotional scarring comes from working under David. And I found, you know, you made, you made a great reference to the buzzy little bees, but I found that scene so sinister with David looking at the bees and talking to River about them. And he was just sort of like, I like following them back to their hive, you know, like. you know, he's floating in and out of talking about literal bees and talking about, you know, the various cells, hives, whatever, inside of the Cold War. And, you know, and if we hadn't done this, they would have turned red, so we had to do it.

But it's just sort of like, I don't know, there was something about the very, like, genteel British gentleman, reducing them to sort of like little insects that he's following. When we see the other side of it, based on, you know, the Libyan characters, inside of this season of here are the ramifications of thinking, you know, here's, here's one keystroke that Claude Whelan made. Like, here are the ramifications of these actions that the David Cartwrights and the Claude Wealins of the world take. And even if they're just thinking of them as like statistics and numbers on a computer or bees in a hive, like these are real people with real lives that have been destroyed. And I just thought that was so well done with

David. It was so sinister to me, couched in this like, idea. idyllic British countryside sort of setting, which is creepy. I mean, it's the power of this show that they can just like pull Jonathan Price off the bench. And he comes, he comes in for like a day of shooting and throws on the fedora and talks about bees. And like it is sinister in exactly that way. Like you're right. Like reading between the lines and like part of the fun of that character and I say fun, like even acknowledging that some of the David Carwright stuff for me is just like absolutely gutting to watch.

Right. Like characters at that stage of their life like push a very specific. button for me that's like always very emotional. And yet you know this is a person who has done absolutely heinous things and parsing every word and trying to understand where he is mentally from sentence to sentence in terms of what he's talking about is part of the fun of that character. And is what makes watching any interaction with River who is just like kind of loathe to the responsibility of like feeling his grandfather as this burden that he has to attend to, even when sometimes he's trying to tell him things that are actually important to doing his job.

and sometimes telling him things that are just like the saddest thing you've ever heard in your life. That's just like happening on the edges of this story. Like as far as like the very propulsive parts of slow horses, they nail that sort of character stuff, which is what makes the show as good as it is. I was thinking about that as it pertains to, you know, Alan and I were talking last week about this idea of how the world is populated. And we were talking about the way in which like Judd shows up this season,

shows back up again in this episode to be an integral part of, of how the plot spins out. And I was thinking about, you know, characters we meet this season. Like, Nick Muhammad's character, Jeffrey, like, I kind of thought he would be more involved in the season than he wound up being. But now we know who the mayor of London is, right? And so anytime the mayor of London comes in and it's Nick Muhammad, even if he's there for like an episode as a scene or something like that, like that populates the world out.

We got Molly was in this season, David was in this season. I was hoping for more from Doty Gimble, but like now that we've met a like very nasty tabloid columnist, like I'm sure that's a character that could be used in the future. And a widow potentially scorned. Right. It's like she has this whole new arc to her life that is sad but interesting in the terms of TV storytelling. And like I could see her being used in all kinds of ways in future seasons. And I think to your point of like even even though Will Smith is leading this idea that Gary

fucking Olman is anchoring the show and a show that has gotten. awards attention means that to hop forward to the season six trailer. I don't know how much Hugo weaving is in next season, but like I could see him show up for like an episode, you know? These characters are just going to populate this world with like really interesting performers in tiny roles inside of slow horses and they'll want to do it because it's such a great show. And, you know, it shines their CV even if they're only sort of tangentially in a season. And so, you know. Well, there's something to like the British TV model too as well.

When it's like when we're talking about a six episode season, you may only be in one episode, but that is a substantial part of the overall art. Right? Like all of a sudden it is kind of meaty and important, even though it is like a guest starring performance. I did get some of that out of Nick Muhammad this season where you're right. We're building out the world. We now know the mayor of London. They just created somebody who is the most cringe worthy man alive.

And like you and I have not discussed Lunderville. No. Every time he says the word Lunderville, like my entire body skin crawls, him quoting Dominic Toreto at the memorial, like, to me, he is the epitome of, you know, we got the Diana Tavernor bomb a couple

episodes ago of like heavy on hashtags, light on results as far as like modern activism goes. Right. I mean, that character, like Jaffrey is just like such a perfect embodiment of that sort of philosophy. I really agree. I think not just quoting Dominic Toreto,

which was exquisite comedy inside of this episode, but doing it in close proximity to the William Blake Kim. And then he's like, these two things, like, just comparing the two of them was just really delicious. We all know that guy. I've been at weddings where that speech was made. You know, it's like we've all been there. Yeah, really, really good. Okay, let's go back to the beginning and talk about.

So the park has been had an IT, incident has occurred and blinded them and shut them down. How was Roddy used this season for you? And was it what you expected when we sort of had the idea of like a Roddy Ho season? Like how did that all pan out for you? It wasn't what I expected at all. Like when when I had conceptualized a roddy ho season, I'm thinking, oh yeah, maybe he's a target, but it's like, you know, a him and lamb road trip. You know, like they're bouncing around town trying to keep him safe. Like he is the moving ball, right, that everyone is trying to get to for some. reason or another. I did not conceptualize him seeing himself as the Hannibal Lecter, him doing

like weird pull-ups in an interrogation room, like the physicality of that character. And I think his ability to remain such a central part of the plot and of all of the moving pieces while being immobilized, right? Like for half the season, he's been in custody. And yet he's still getting quips off. He's still being super weird with Emma Flight in a way that makes me laugh almost every time they're on screen together. Like, there's just ways in which, like, there's characters who you can't do that with, right? If you bench Catherine Standish and put her in a room, we've kind of seen what happens with that. And it, it mutes that character and it limits her ability to, you know, have more interactions

with Lamb or River or at that time, Louisa, like characters who are really important as reflections of where Sandish is, I think what we're learning about Roddy is that he's kind of just funny opposite anybody. And in some ways, the characters who know him least and are most, like, baffled by his whole deal are the most fun to see him with. I really loved him in this episode, just sort of lurking around the IT efforts of the park, munching on an apple, giving them shit. We get the classic IT crowd, have you tried turning it off and turning it back on again moment? And then the ultimate insult to Claude when Roddy Ho's like, you and me both, right? Like, how, what what chance

did you have when Tara got one over on me? So really, really good Roddy stuff in this episode. But yeah, in terms of like this idea of this being like a Shirley season or a Roddy season, like I don't really feel it's almost like a Claude season almost more than anyone else. You know, perhaps given how this, especially given how this episode ends with Claude, seemingly out of the park. Those surely still around, you know. He knows how to Weasel. Exactly.

We go into the Libyan embassy. And, you know, Alan and I have been talking last week about the way in which, like, like the North Korean efforts in the books were changed to Libyan contingency inside of this season. And we had some questions about whether or not that was like effective, the way in which these sort of like guys in the van, whether or not their personalities were distinguished enough. And we did get pushed back a little bit from some listeners who were, I think, you know,

I think Alan and I haven't come up in the like era of 24 and a number of other like things where it's just sort of like guys in a, indistinguishable guys in a van, brown guys in a van, just like trigger something in us. But you have your own scars, Joe. That's true. But I think that, you know, some of our listeners were enjoying the way in which the Libyan cause, though, of course, it's like a very like killmonger. We don't agree with the methods, but they have a point.

And the way in which they're aggrieved against the UK and the way in which they are using the UK tactics is a. is a slightly different spin on this because like, you know, every terrorist thinks that they're justified. And, uh, you know, we can talk about that forever if we wanted to. But this idea that like the show feels like it's saying these, don't these guys have quite the point here.

What do you think of that? I think it is always fascinating the way that slow horses kind of draws a line between the types of espionage, right? Like we have so much spies. versus spy happening in a lot of these seasons where you're left to like think, oh, this is the good version of a spy and this is the bad version. And I think part of the reason the slow horses themselves are endearing to us is because they are so relegated to the bench that they are not deployed in the field to say like disrupt the political system of another country. Like they are

always on defense. They are mostly in the UK and in London like trying to resolve some situation that has arisen. But the David Cartwright version of SpyCraft. as we talked about earlier, like is fucked up, right? Like is inherently immoral. It's something that on an individual level, these people have to deal with. And on a national level, we all have to reckon with based on the places where we live. And kind of like our alignment and understanding of those things and how they sit in a political world. Like all of that is really hard to unpack.

I think for the Libyan cause in this in particular, I would only, like, I agree that the show's perspective seems pretty firm on. how all that nets like nets out. I also think like it's not in its execution dramatically more sophisticated than like top gun maverick nameless enemy. Like we, the actual like messaging of the cause is basically drawn the line at like you fucked up our country

and therefore we the members of this like group of security operatives are angry and responsive in different ways. I think that's the area in which it works for me is not necessarily the messaging of the cause, that you have not even distinct personalities among this Libyan group in particular, but they do kind of want different things or at least have different ideas about what is fair recompense, right? It's like when they've paid, is that enough?

When we carry out this attack on a, you know, like a service at Abbott's field, like, is that enough? Or does it like, do we have to keep going down the chain? Like, where do we draw the line in terms of what is satisfactory to us? Like, I thought that meant, like, that lent itself to good TV because not only do we get the reveals of the kind of splinters within this group, but you get the reveals for the characters themselves of like, oh, I'm just like a pawn to these other people who I'm going to be left for dead within the Libyan embassy because I don't actually matter to what they want.

I think it's really interesting that like, I think what you say is very interesting. And I think, I think something that Alan said last week, because he had already seen the finale. So he was like, among these guys, one of them behaves in a way that. that I was like really surprised by. So that would be the person who peels off, I would assume, to go after Claude. And I agree that that particular guy in the van all season was seemingly coded as like the guy who had the most issue with violence, the guy who felt like the most squeamish about everything going on. I can, however, reconcile that mentality with his messaging here when he peels off, which is like enough innocent blood. Why aren't we going for the person who did the thing?

Like, why are we blowing up penguins when that guy is sitting in his comfy corner? Exactly. So I can connect those dots. It wasn't where I expected that character to go. I thought that character was very much being set up as, I can't do this anymore. You have to stop. You've gone too far. And in many ways he is, but it doesn't mean he's like, now let's go join a drum circle.

He's like, let's go assassinate Claude Weillan and who's most among us. You know what I mean? really quick question for you, Rob Mahoney. I actually don't know. Have you spent any time in the UK? I have not. Okay, which means you've probably never had a Greg's sausage roll. Oh, I would love one, though.

Based on my experience on like, you know, with Great British Bake Off, etc. I'm very into the sausage roll world. I just have not partaken myself. Greg's, though, is like, is, well, ours time the Popatina, I'm about to get this wrong. But it is like, it's like the Subway sandwich of sausage rolls. It's like a very like, I'm already out. It's like a very like, it's very like a heavily franchise chain sort of situation.

However, people have like this, maybe Subway sandwich isn't the thing. But like people have a strong affection for a Greg sausage roll. Okay. But it is, you know, like fast food sort of anyway. I'm not above that, but I would love to hear the accurate, if not subway. representation to arstime the pope at gmail.com. Like what is the comp here? Yeah, what is Greg's here?

But the Greg sausage roll that he got, and I'm pretty sure it's Greg's based on the bag. But I love this conversation about like, is this the vegan one? If it were meat, it would be pink. And that's a nice indictment of Greg's right there. Yes. So, yeah. I did think like that whole moment of the sausage roll of lamb kind of talk. like backdoor talking standish into making herself a hostage unwittingly was some of the best like lamb standish stuff we've had in a while.

Like those are two characters who had so much screen time together in earlier seasons and have kind of been on the opposite sides of things in a lot of these. Him talking her into making herself a hostage is is one thing. But also he asks her opinion on where Tara would go if she was trying to avoid people. And then that's where he goes, right? He's like, I mean, this is. the thing is like I feel like Catherine is constantly like not considered, not just by characters of the universe of people watching the show, they don't consider Catherine, but like, and you know, and he says it himself. He's like, they won't hurt a harmless little old lady, right? Like,

this is, this is Catherine's like invisibility cloak that she wears around, around society. But like, he respects her ideas about, you know, what tactics to take. And I think, you know, he'll never tell her that. And, you know, she might not even have connected the fact that he asked her what to do and then did what she said should be done. But it's there for us to see if we want to. It is. I mean, look at her body of work this season. Like, she was one of the first people to believe that there was a credible threat to Roddy. She stopped an assassination attempt on the mayor of London. And then she successfully extricated a terrorist from the Libyan embassy. Like, honestly, good spy work all around. She might be a nominee for Best Spycraft in these episodes.

Are you, when we get to Best Use of Spycraft, Worse Use of Spycraft, which you told me you have, is it for this episode specifically or do you have it for this season? I have it for this episode specifically, but look, it also is feeding. It's trailing in from some previous episodes for sure. Okay, let's talk about some, not necessarily to step on that, but some candidates in the shooting at Abbasfield. Yeah, it's another shooting at Abbasfield. We have co. We have Shirley, we have River. Coe is leading the charge here because of that great physical comedy moment when Lamb says like, it would only occur to a psychopath or whatever. And then just like, Coe just like gets up and walks out of the room. Really good stuff.

hilarious. We've got the three of them in there. Coe kicks Shirley a gun and Shirley takes out in one of the shooters like right away. Yeah, which I got to say like I wasn't counting on a friendship forming between those two per se. But kicking Shirley a gun is basically her love language. So I have no choice but to interpret that these are two people who understand each other on a fundamental level. Well, I mean, when you think back to the end of last season, when he took the gun from her and then killed the guy, there was this like, you know, and he talked to her, he talked her down

and was like, this isn't what Marcus wants, like all this sort of stuff like that, took the gun and then he did the shooting. So that was like a really interesting connection moment between those characters. So yeah, I'm very interested to see, like, what possible direction this goes. But yeah, the idea that, like, Shirley's been asking for a gun all season. Everyone's like, why the fuck would we give you a gun? And then she takes the shooter out, like, within a second while River's shooting wide the whole time. So, um, the absolute gall of River at the end of this episode to be like, I'm so fucking good at this job.

And it's like, my guy, Shirley and Co. Bailed you out at Abbott's Field. The only reason you even saved Claude's life is because Pip the dog is overly friendly and disrupted the whole situation. If not for Pip, you have done absolutely nothing through this entire season. Pip's owner running into frame and like a little patchwork vest being like, oh, I'm so sorry. It's so friendly, not reading the room at all. But to go back to Abisfield.

So we get, I love Shirley's like, Shirley doesn't have ever. a gun. River's like, we still have hours. She's like, fuck you. River can't hit anything. Shirley takes out a one-shooter immediately. And then Coe comes through with the payoff of the push knife. How'd you feel about that? I mean, look, it really came through. An absolutely clutch performance from Coe who can sneak up with the best of them. But also, look, I love a bit of surprising grisly violence. And not only is it one stab of the push knife, like he's going full stabby, stabby in the situation as, look, as you have to do to take down an active shooter. I'd say if my, uh, if I've ever found myself in that situation.

Which part? Which role are you in? In theory, I'm co. In theory, I have a push knife. Okay. The theory I'm co. Though I've never snuck up behind anyone with any degree of stealth. So it couldn't be me. But let's say I get in close proximity to a shooter. And I've got the push knife and their neck is exposed. I'm not stopping at one stab. Are you stopping at one stab? I don't know where all those arteries are. Co does, but I don't.

And so I would just keep stabbing personally. Well, apparently he also knows that this is a small enough knife. Like, we're playing a numbers thing. You know, like, it doesn't matter how precise you are. We just got to take this thing. And I really loved his delivery of, you know, when Jeffrey's like, where did you come from? He's just like, I walked up behind him very quietly. It's very good.

He's really growing up. This has been a really good co-season. Yeah. Yeah, we had been discussing sort of like discussing like how would they use Coe this season. How did you feel about the way in which they paired him with River? Like what did that do for you? I really loved it. Yeah, it's really good.

Again, like a perfect avenue to give River like tons of shit for everything he's done wrong, for all of the missteps. There's also like an obliviousness to Coe that I really appreciate where it's like he is responsible in some ways for Gimble dying. And yet like it just kind of like water on his back. like it's not really phasing him and the way that River is like rehearsing his lines for what he's going to say to lamb and coach just over here like eating cherries like I find like how not fussed he is to be a really nice addition to the slough house team yeah and I like the way that Jackson always seems to know how to deploy his people and and who will pick up on what uh they don't always pick on up on it right away but he's constantly just

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We already talked about the David Buzzy B's scene, the Sting in the Tail, all that sort of stuff like that. anything else you want to say about this encounter between David and River? I think we hit most of the points. I think I was just so glad to see that there's still a place for him in this show and that he isn't just like sent to the old folks home never to be heard from again, right? He is critical to the plot. Like him calling River is like an impetus for a lot of the stuff that ends up happening at the end of the season.

And so the fact that we get David back, that we get Molly back, that we get Peter Judd back, I'm ecstatic about. all of those things. I am devastated, Joe, that we did not get Louisa back at any point this season. I was waiting to ask you, but we can talk about this now. Rob, how are you doing? I really thought she'd be back. We also haven't, she's not in the season 6 trailer, which is not, well, there's one shot.

No. There's one shot where it's a river and two other people are walking out of an airplane hanger, and it's the back of their heads. There's a lot of back of the head shot in this trailer. Yes. And it's him and like a big guy. And in between them, there is a shorter person with like slightly curly hair. And I was like, are they hiding Louisa from us?

Is that Louisa? We can only dream. This is my hope. Like so the framing of season six we get in this sneak preview is that somebody has stolen the Slough House personnel files, is hunting down the slow horses for some reason. Louisa's got to still be in the file. And so I don't want our paloosa to be imperiled. But if it is a way to like pull her.

back into the orbit of the show. I can understand how we would get there. These are the limbs that I'm clinging to, Joe. We've now just gone through six episodes. River couldn't even get her on the phone. Like, it didn't even ring. He's getting screamed. Yeah, straight to voicemail, pretty tough. How did you feel about that? When he's like, I have no one else to call. You're it. Accurate. And then also being like, looks like I'm leaving slow house too. Okay. So we've gotten a lot of, I don't know, did you see that really long email we got from, I think it's Caroline, who was like, has, it was a fantastic email. She talked about working in HR.

She was talking about the way in which like the park thinks about Slau house and and all those sort of stuff like that. It was a fascinating email. But part of it was this sort of river. She's like, it never occurred to me how much of a fuckup river was until you guys have been talking about it so much this season. And I do think it's part of what makes him so great. We should say like I love that he's a fuckup.

Yes. It's why Slow Horses is right. But I think part of it is genuinely part of it is getting him out of the black codes and putting him in that track suit. Because even when he goes to save Claude and strikes that, like, very James Bondi sort of pose, which he holds for a beat after he shoots the guy. He just sort of like, he's got like one hand holding Claude back and his like, you know, his shoulders are back and he's just sort of like, I'm like, I'm really good at my job, right? But he's wearing this fucking dorky track suit while he does it. And it really puts a damper on the whole mystique. So. Oh, completely. But while we're here, Joe, that has to be the fit watch of the week, the track suit for River. Of the season. I mean, look, it's been hard for anyone to keep up since Roddy's fits early in the season.

But over a long enough timeline, slow horses has proven any of these people become Roddy Ho. They all end up in a track suit in the end. And so the fact that River got there was particularly delightful. It's true. Shirley is like one track pant away because she's always in that windbreaker. It's true. I will say, though, let's give River credit where it's due. He does remember how many boots there were, even though he was the one who was like saying, surely you're full of shit the whole time.

He remembers the boots. He takes David seriously one be conversation too late, but that's okay. Like, we got there. Still got there, yeah. And he does, you know, he goes, you know, takes Claude's wife's advice as to where to find him. I do want to say. I have some notes for Claude. It starts with crowded house as running music.

I don't know how you felt about fall at your feet playing loudly as he does his sort of cool down run down the stairs. Even for a cool down, we're going with like coffee shop core for your run? Like, why? What is your pain? What are the BPNs you're trying to hit here? Because I feel like you're fucking up. Right.

I also just love, we already mentioned sort of his running technique earlier in the season, but I have to, like, the way that he was like skip trotting down those stairs is just like really good. And then, Arstown the Pope at Gmail.com, if you have any thoughts about this, but he says, you know, he's been such a day, he's talking to himself, his driver is dead in the front seat and he's not paying attention. He's on like winery.com. I don't know, like what, you know. And he's He's like crack coke in a bottle of Chalk Hill. Yeah. Okay.

This is where me, a Sonoma County resident, can weigh in on this. The Chalk Hill estate is in Sonoma County winery. That's a good wine, but it's like a fine wine. It's not like... It's a perfect pick, honestly. Tell me why I think that's a perfect pick. Well, just because it is that. Like, it's not actually like the Somaliase pick.

Right. It's just like a guy who has a little bit of money. And like he's not going for the bottom shelf offerings of Chalk Hill. It's more like the, you know, the premium $100, $125 bottle of wine situation. Then I kind of love that exact range for him. That's like, this is a splurge. But it's also something that like people who are actually of this world would kind of turn their nose up. I just would never say, and maybe this makes me sound like an absolute snob.

But I would never say like I'm going to reward myself with Chalk Hill. That's not what I would say. I would say it's a nice, not the $100 bottle or whatever. You're Camus or bust. Like, why are we fucking around? I was just like, that's not what I would pick, even like from the Sonoma County offering. So, but if you guys disagree and if you think Chalk Hill is the crem de la cram, you let me know. Let's give him some slight grace on this because he's had a day.

He's had a week. He's had a month. And he hasn't even gone through some of the worst of it yet in terms of being held at gunpoint. But like, there were just points in this episode where Claude badly needs a drink. badly needs a hug. Badly needs, I think, to be swaddled and changed. Like, he's just, it's a rough sequence of events. And I will admit, I don't know what these sort of like upcharges on a bottle of chalk

hill imported all the way to the UK. Great point. And it is funny when, um, it sounds so dushy when you're from here and then you go elsewhere and all the offerings are like Sonoma County or Naba County wines. And I'm like, but what about your local offerings? That's what I want to try. I mean, like France and Italy are. right there. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Spain is right there. You have lots of,

lots of delicious offerings. And yet, we're going to Chalk Hill. All right. Let's talk about the river lamb scene that we get in the, in the sort of diner before we go back to the office. Yes. This is my, it's not like a classic shank, but it's like a, you will bleed out from this shank is my lambshank of the episode, which is, you know, it's not the hope that kills you right, it's knowing it's the hope that kills you that kills you. Can I ask you in the context of everything that's happening here, what does that mean? Oh, well, that means. Like, I know what it's the hope that kills you means.

And I know in theory what it's knowing that it's the hope that kills you is what kills you means. But like, what is he talking about with River specific? I think the hope that he will get out of Sloughhouse, right? He's like, so you'll bring it up with him? And he's like, yeah, if it comes up, I'll bring it up with him. Right. But like. But then wouldn't that just be it's the hope that kills you?

I like that extra layer of like... I do, too. I just don't... I don't know what it means. If it's the hope that kills you, you can delude yourself into something. But if you know you're deluding yourself, isn't that even more soul shriveling? But River doesn't know that he's deluding himself. River is definitely just a...

It's the hope that kills you kind of guy. Yes. But Lambs may be like, welcome to... I invite you to this new level of misery, which is... It's self-commentary, you think. think so. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Then we get this Claude Jackson interaction where Claude tries to pull a move on the chess master that is Jackson Lamb and it doesn't work out for him. Anything you want to say about this? Well, I mean, let's walk through the London rules of all this.

I mean, you've got Peter Judd trying to play by London rules selling Claude on this plan to begin with to pin everything on Lamb. Claude is obviously executing it and trying to save his own job in skin and reputation in the process. But, like, Lamb has been playing this game for an awfully long time to the extent that anyone is going to have a checkmate. It's going to be him. And I really did enjoy that the importance of the recording is not River and Co. accidentally acknowledging that they watched a political figure die on tape, but it's flipping

over the tape and realizing what else was on it. That coming back to roost in a big way, I thought it was just like a nice little grace note for this. The genius of Jackson Lamb is that he will read the entirety of Claude's file, knowing that it's of interest to Tara and the rest, he will read it. And he'll listen to the entirety of the tape, just to see if there's anything on there. He does listen to the whole tape. This is an opportune time to talk about my lamb shank of the episode, Joe, which, look, anytime you get lamb and clawed together, which is rare, unfortunately, as far as the show goes,

they have not had an opportunity to interact much, but I'm sure we'll meet again. I doubt that I don't use prostitutes. That one really hit. And that's that's lamb taking the piss as he takes a literal piss. Again, just a perfect scene. Gary Oldman, an international treasure. Gary Oldman is incredible always. Everyone is very, very, very good at their job as performers on this show.

I actually, not as spies. I actually think my acting moment of the episode, though, goes to our babe Diana Tavener as she's moving into her new office, making sure to snag the bottle of liquor before it goes out of the office. But it's the way she sits down on the sofa and just sort of gives herself a like, I made it moment.

You know what you mean? She's talking to Jackson. She doesn't break stride in sort of like what she's discussing with him, but she just gives this sort of like luxurying, like, I'm in this couch, it's my couch now, this is my office now. I've spent, you know, we watched her for seasons,

trying to actively manipulate her way into this role and here she finally is, thanks to Jackson Lamb, actually. Yes. But here or she finally. How deliberate do you think that part of it is? Like, Lamb obviously knows and acknowledges and says as much that Claude is just a fuck up in every possible respect, an empty suit who doesn't deserve this job. He and Tavernor have such a fascinating and complicated relationship, but there is a mutual respect

there, and we see it. It comes to the fore and helps solve ultimately some of the mysteries of this season. do you think there's any part of him that wants Diana Tavernor in that seat? I think it's the same part of him that wants Roddy back in Sloughhouse. You know what I mean? It's just sort of this like, and I think some book readers think that TV Lamb is softer than book Lamb. You know, this sort of backstory being part of all of that. but I need this from him.

I need this like slightly protective quality that he has that he's going to like keep Catherine with him. And he's going to have, they all can't stand Roddy. But he's going to show up to Roddy's house to save him with a squeezy bottle of bleach. And he is going to actively recruit him back into Slough House, you know, at the end of the episode. So Diana. He's going to tell Molly that maybe she should roll herself off a cliff. but also save for job. Yeah, get Molly back.

You know, so like, so Lady Die is, maybe it's just sort of like the enemy, you know. Like, he knows exactly how to navigate her. And so having her at first desk is like, can only be an advantage to him at the end of the day. A question we got from so many of our listeners, and I think one that people are asking this many seasons into the show is, how can the park continue to consider Slyle House to be absolute fucking losers when they have saved the day so many times? like how can they be considered this? And, you know, part of that email that we got it from our listener, Caroline, there is this like possibly specifically British,

and we will never understand it because we are American sort of idea of hierarchy and just sort of like you can look down on someone even though they are your better in some way or another because they are just in that step on the ladder. I don't know, we're pretty good about that here too. We're not bad. We're not bad, but America is baked into its like mythology, the story, the fiction that we tell ourselves is that upper mobility is like part of what is the American dream, right? And then like in the UK, it's like you're born here, your accent tells us where you're from

and that's where you stay sort of idea. So you make a good point. You're very correct. We're no slouches in that particular way. It is not uniquely British, but it is like sort of like uniquely institutionally British. And I can I can see that being part of it. But anyway, I think I think that like flows into the London rule stuff too though, Joe, where it's like that perspective, that question to me is like our question as watchers of the show. Right.

Like we have seen everything that River has fucked up, but also all the ways in which he has shown up to prevent assassination attempts and stop terrorists and all this stuff. when it comes down to who actually gets credit for those things, River Cartwright's name is not in the paper, right? So it's like, who actually knows what Slough House has done? I think the answer is Diana Tavernor, and it probably stops about there. That's fair. It's really fair. I just, I like, I think that it matters that, you know, and River doesn't, but it matters that, you know, Jackson Lamb has this, like, thick cockney accent. Like, that matters. And in addition to, like, the grubbiness, these extreme grubby. that comes with him. Quite extreme. Is he taping his socks? That's part of it.

It's, well, first I think he was cutting a hole in one because he needs his toe to be sticking out because of maybe the pain. I don't know. Yeah. So he needs, though, he's actively creating those toe holes. But yeah, there was tape on one of them. And perhaps that is like helps with the pain. I don't know.

Like, maybe it's just straight mending other holes. I have many, many sock related questions. If you ever taped your socks, please email us at ours time to Pope at gmail.com. I'd love to know more about it. So are there any characters other than the ones we already mentioned, Doty, Molly is coming back. We see her in the season six trailer back in the archives. Jaffrey. Is there anyone else, and you know, Hugo Weavings in the season six trailers, is there

anyone else where you're like, Louisa, are you holding out hope for Olivia Cook? Like, you know, I have long since let go of that hope. That is the hope that kills you. Olivia Cook, I can't imagine she's back on this show, right? I don't, I don't, so here's, let me pose a theory to you. And this is like, no spoilers necessarily, but, you know, if people are like super, super squeamish about this, like, skip forward. I was alluding to this with Alan, but like, I think Olivia Cook's character does come back. Does come back, yeah. But I think what they're in and removing Louisa from this season, I wonder if they can

use her the way that they used Olivia Cook's character to be like, Louisa is back. Like, because she's in the book throughout, she doesn't leave. And so in pulling her away for a season, it's like, and this is how we pull her back in. in the same way that like Olivia Cook's character, if she has been like, you know, hiding this whole time and then the Slough House file gets leaked, bring her back into the mix. Do you know what I mean?

So they're subbing Louisa in for that character, possibly. That makes a lot of narrative sense to me. And I do think like if you were going to have a reason to have Olivia Cook back, somebody has stolen the sloughhouse files and is hunting down agents. Like that is the way you would do it. I would be thrilled if that were the case. I'm not, I am choosing not to hold out hope, but anything is possible. Maybe we get Min Harper back.

Like maybe in the- The ghost of Min-Harper? We live in a world where the hunt for Ben Solo almost maybe happened. So why not the hunt for Min Harper? Why can't we bring him back from the dead? You know how much I love Min Harper. I would love to have Min back. It would thrill me.

Somehow Min returned for Slow Wars as Series 6. Oh, love that you just said. Okay, so for Series 6, let's just hope for Sid, a.k. Olivia Cook, Louisa, and the reanimated corpse of Min Harper. I would love all of that. The actors that we do have in season six that we see in the trailer are Lenny Rush, who's a young comedian. I know him best from a Taskmaster holiday special that he did really, really good. My guy Harry Lloyd, my fave from Game of Thrones, Vassaris himself. from one of the greatest episodes of Doctor Who,

family of blood. Like I just am Harry Lloyd seemingly playing a tech billionaire. Very excited about that. Lenny Henry is here. Another great UK comedian, etc. Legend. And then Kyle Solar from Andor. Harry Lloyd and Kyle Sola are like two of my all-time faves.

And here they are with the Lenny's in season six of Slow Hors. It's so funny. I was sort of going frame by frame through the trailer. And there's like a blurry shot of Kyle Soler's character fighting. And I paused there and I was like, you can barely see his face. But like from the patchiness of the ginger stubble, I was like, I was like, I think that Cyril Karn himself, Kyle Soler from Andor. So I stopped there and then I googled it. I was like Kyle Solar Slow Horses, nothing on his IMTB, blah, blah.

but it's on his, like if you go deeper, it's on his like agencies page for him is Slow Horses Season 6, so it hasn't been like officially announced. It's not as an IMDV, but it's on his like agency's page for him. And so I texted the blurry photo and the agency page to Mallory and Chris Ryan,

and I was so excited. And then you go forward to the next shot is just like a full, very crystal clear shot of his face. And I was like, okay. But look, look, this is part of doing detect. of work, Joe. You're the best in the business. You got to the bottom of it. And then sometimes the answers are, you know, sometimes they just tweet it out. The thing that I need to learn from you, freeze frame Mahoney, is that like, sometimes you don't have to freeze. Sometimes you could just

let the whole trailer play and then go back through and freeze frame it, whereas I was just like, I have to like know every single thing of happening with the trailer. Anyway, um, no, you are who you are, Joe. This is what we love about you. I just need to know for you, like, how does it feel that in the algorithmic world we live in. The roulette has spun, and it's just like all of your guys in one place. Right? Like, what are you going to do with yourself? I don't know what I'm going to do with myself.

I have no idea. Harry Lloyd, so Harry Lloyd is in the trailer. You see him a couple times. The caption is literally like, he says something about our security, is shaking hands with Diana Tavener, and then it's the close caption says groans. And it's like, I can't tell if it's the action of the next scene that is giving us the groans. But Diana Tavener looks so upset to have to deal with his guy and shake his hand.

So in this sort of like tech billionaire space, this idea that like Harry Lloyd is playing some kind of disruptor, like, are you excited to see that come to Slough House? What do you think? Extremely so. Actually, my first impression, I was like, did they get Matthew Good for this show? That's what I thought from like the initial like profile I saw of him. and then when I realized who we were actually talking about in Harry Lloyd, I do love a tech mogul of some kind for him.

And exactly in that sort of like, he's so good at playing a tough hang. Like he's so good at that particular zone. And clearly we're going to see many gradations of it. But I think that's great casting. I think he's going to be a welcome addition to this world in the same way that like Claude ended up being such like a welcome character in this world. Like you need different kinds of empty suits and buffoons and like people who are a little overpuffed relative to their actual importance to the universe. Like, that's the stuff that

slow horses loves playing with. So we're dealing with like a, you know, a digital leak, right? So it makes sense that, you know, there would be someone in the, in the, um, tech world would be connected to this, this story. There's something about Harry Lloyd's, like, he's, he's in his 40s, but he has this very, like, boyish face. And that's what's, like, very, like, you know, it's just very Silicon Valley to me. This sort of like these adult men that you kind of think of boy as boys at the same time. So yeah. Anything else? Kyle Soler looks like he's playing an absolute psychopath, perhaps someone, he seems to be fighting co. So maybe someone that like co-worked with. Psycho and psycho. Yeah, psycho and psycho behavior. Tad of 10-tent, no notes. Though it makes me worried that

like he's going, I want Kyle Soler to stay around on slow horses. So I don't want like a one and done sort of like really cool fight and then it's over. That's not what I want for Kyle Suler. Can we give him a spider arc, you know? Can we just have him kind of hanging around being somebody who irks everyone he comes in contact with? That would be great. I would be thrilled.

I miss Arn so much. One of my favorite TV characters of all time. I want him back. Anything else you want to say about this season? You haven't done your best use of spikraft worst use of spikroth. Oh, that's so true. I mean, to me it was a little self-evident in that the best. is Lamb's checkmate in the end.

And the worst, by extension, is basically everything Claude has been doing for like three running episodes. Two entire seasons, perhaps. Yeah. And part of what I love about that character is like, it never occurs to Claude for one moment that he is not as in charge as he thinks he is. Like, he just always thinks like, oh, I have done the bare minimum and thus I'm going to get one over on a spy who survived the ins and outs of the Cold War.

I really hope this is the last we see of him. Like part of having Claude as a character is obviously having him in a position of power, right? Like that's what makes it so juicy and interesting. And if he's not first desk anymore, I don't know what that character is, but I've just really enjoyed watching him step on every rake in every lawn in London. You know, like, it's been such a nice part of the show, and I'm going to miss it if he's just not part of it anymore. I think the, you know, the nefarious.

Various law offices of Judd and Wheelan is something that I could easily see, you know, in a very like sort of Marley and Marley way. Yeah, I'm excited to see. Keep the Marley's out of this. They don't deserve being lumped in with these guys. They were just frugal. They deserve everything they get, Rob. And I think, you know, that's true. Anyway, I liked the season a lot.

I don't think it was my favorite season, but I think it was an improvement over last season. I like the ongoing sort of. evolution of our understanding of her cartwright is not just like a guy who was set up and doesn't belong in Sloughhouse but instead a guy who definitely belongs in Slough House. I'm excited, something we didn't mention

in the season 6 trailer, unfortunately we do say goodbye to Roddy Ho's you know purple top knot and I will miss it. But it seems as though Shirley is getting sort of an action mullet of some kind and that's pretty exciting. I saw that. Are you anti the action mullet?

you know it's one of those things I need to see in action like I the the brief shots we saw of her mostly like her in slaw house talking to somebody like I don't know this is kind of the response I have when I see new NBA jerseys Joe where it's like you see the like PDF image of the jersey and it's like I don't love it but I need to see it in the field right I need to I need to see the way that it bobs and weaves I need to see the way it's reacting when Shirley is probably getting beat up based on historical events. But, you know, maybe she's the one doing the beating up in series six. Maybe she'll get to keep her gun this season. Who's to say? Come on. Give this girl. She wants one thing. Just let her have

the gun. I'm anti-gun in general, but if we're giving anyone a gun in season six, I need it to be Shirley. She has definitely earned it. Okay. So we'll be back with Slow Horses Season 6 when that comes out. Without a doubt. And I have to say, you know, you mentioned kind of how this rates out for you, Joe, as relative to all the other seasons. I agree it's a step. up from series four, I'm hoping that getting Hugo weaving back with more selective deployment for six will be like a nice happy media, right? Where it still feels like slow horses, but then here's this new wrinkle that we spent this time establishing. And it doesn't feel like it's just like taking over the whole story. I will continue to admire the way that you say series instead

of season when we're talking about British television. It's very, it's very good of you. Let's get you, let's get you a Greg sausage roll for the complete UK experience. I would love one. Please not vegan. please. The idea of a vegan sausage roll from a subway-like establishment, that's simply not for me. I'm certain they're frozen, so I feel like we can get this shipped out for a YouTube experience. I am very confident they're not made fresh. Arstime, the Pope and Gmail.com, PrestiGTV at Spotify.com, please join us for Plyurbis, especially if you were like into severance.

Yes. I don't know if you ever heard of the show's Breaking Bad or Battle of Carl Saul, but they're pretty good. Pretty good. And this is one of the best pilots I've ever seen in my life. I've only watched the first episode. It's a double premiere, but it's one of the best I've ever seen in terms of like establishing a world, an incident, a character that we are invested in. I'm really excited for people to experience them for themselves and to share it with you.

Joe, that is a hell of a pitch, especially coming off of you and I have just revisited some of the greatest series of all time in their pilots, some of which were great, some of which were not so great. Like, you know, you're throwing this up there with royalty. I think there's a difference between, I'm not saying this is going to be one of the best seasons of television of all time, but there's a difference between like this pilot is like, this is the hook. There's no, there's no arguing with this.

No, we don't need to get cute about it. It's right there. It's such a premise heavy, like, idea that is just sort of like, this is the hook. It is like very gripping. And whether or not the rest of the series winds up being like in that echelon. But then again, like, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are two of the best series of TV I've ever seen in my entire life. So like, you know, what's there to say? I mean, that's terrifying and awesome to consider in its own right, which like I would say both Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are shows that took a minute to kind of like find their legs and their tone and exactly what they wanted to be.

What is a Vince Gilligan show that's just like locked in from jump? Let's find out. And it's such a different world. I think it's, I think it's smart of him to. I was curious why he went to Apple and maybe that'll come out in some Vince Gilligan profile that comes out. I was curious why he left AMC to go to Apple. I am, however, I think it's really smart of him

to like having done Better Call Saul a direct spinoff of Breaking Bad and becoming way more involved. He was never supposed to be as involved in Better Callsall that he wound up being, right? But he's in this one very contained world for over a decade of TV making. That world is called Albuquerque, New Mexico.

We're still in Albuquerque, New Mexico performance. Incredible. But we're in a different, like, reality altogether, essentially. And so he's just, like, skipping up. So you think, until Walt and Jesse show up in episode six, like, there's still room here. Guess what I would welcome them, honestly. If Lala Salamanca wants to show up, I'm welcome him as well. But to step back into his X-Files world, right, that his origin of working on X-Files,

and to be in this genre space. So to be in a different network, true, it's his same leading lady from Better Calls All. True, we're still in Albuquerque, New Mexico. But we are very much in a different world, and I'm excited for people to experience that. So hopefully I've pitched you on Pluribus. Rob and I will be back covering that,

and we'll come up with a new email for that in due time. And in the meanwhile, press TTV at Spotify.com. Thank you to everyone involved in this, to Justin Sales, to Kevin Pooler. And we'll see you soon. Anything else you want to say, Rob Mahoney before we go? Absolutely none. Long-lived slow horses.

Can't wait for Series 6. Welcome back, Rob. We did miss you. Thank you. We'll see you all soon. Bye. Crack a Cayman Jack Margarita with real lime, blue agave nectar,

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