The Prestige TV Podcast - 'Succession' Hall of Fame: "Safe Room"

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joanna Robinson to discuss Season 2, Episode 4 of HBO's 'Succession,' titled "Safe Room." Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Joanna Robinson Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Got that right. All right, TV concierge. She's just a very special edition because Succession is coming back on HBO. I think October 17. Joanna Robinson is here. We've never done a podcast together. We've never met face-to-face. We just met on Zoom.

So it's fairly emotional. I've got an almost famous thing behind me. First of all, hello. Hello. Yeah, I asked Bill if he did some set dressing to make me feel welcome. But apparently this is an organic, almost famous connection. Though, of course, like throw a stone in a sea of journalists and you're going to hit an almost famous fan.

probably. This is destiny because we're talking about succession, which you and I have been texting about. I did a rewatch. I'm preparing for this 20 favorite characters episode I'm going to do with Joe House on TV concierge next week, my buddy. And so I did a rewatch and then I decided, I'm going back.

I'm doing the rarely seen re-rewatch. And one of the interesting things about this show and one of the reasons I think people love talking about it is nobody has like the same. favorite episode, which you pointed out to me. Because the episode we're going to talk about here is called Safe Room. Right. I think it is the best succession episode because for reasons I'll explain.

You don't agree, but I don't think a lot of people would agree. And what we realized is that one of the things about this show is everybody has their own favorite episode, right? After you and I talked about a little bit, I pulled and did an informal poll of a bunch of people. No one came back with the same answer. And most people actually, I think a thing about succession is that it's not an episode where people can easily identify or show where people can easily identify an episode. They would usually come back with a moment like bore on the floor, L to the OG or something like that. They're not saying, you know, the one where, etc.

And I think that season two actually did a really good job because they're location hopping so much. There's the DC, Dundee, our justies, like all these locations are the names of the. of the episodes. So I thought season two did a better job of delineating each episode. But I think the one that you want to talk about, Safe Room, does have a very, like one of those iconic moments, which is the water bottle moment. But I did rewatch it last night just to just to see what you see in it. And I'm, I'm closer to agreeing with you than I was yesterday. Oh, wow. Look at this. So this is the great thing about the re-rewatch is you're not, you're not, you're not, even watching for plot anymore. You're watching for all these different things. You've advanced.

You've advanced to a higher state of watching a show. And I think if you look at Succession, the first five, six episodes are basically grounded in New York in this little power struggle Kendall's having. Then we go to the ranch. We got a Conner's Ranch in New Mexico that he had to rename Austerlitz. Amazing. And then we moved to like the basically the wedding stuff. And there's the bachelor party, which is a lot of people's favorite episode. Prague and then the last two which are centered around the wedding. And then in season two as you said, we start location hop and they

really figure it out. It's like every episode has some distinct feel. Yeah. And I think people cite Prague as a favorite because I think that's the moment when a lot of people locked into the show. A lot of people felt like season one was a slow ramp up and then Prague is the one where they locked in. And so I think a lot of people remember that as a turning point. But I do think on a rewatch or the rare double rewatch, there are some

other winners that sort of emerge. Yeah. Yeah, it's, so there's three different spots of, of season one where I think people got sucked in. And I don't know, it depends on the person, right? Because it could be the fourth episode where it seems like Logan's going to concede at the big dinner. And instead, he pulls one over on Kendall. He summons the strength to get up and he's like, I'm back. Right, right. And that's when the show really kicks into gear. And that you also of Connor. He's running the party in that episode. You have some great Connor. His character's starting to come together. Frozen butter. Yeah, you have a million things. So that, that's like a lot of people, I think that was the episode. We're like, oh, I get the show I'm in. Other people might have

waited until episode six when Kendall tries to do the, the bear vote, but then gets can't fly in the helicopter. He's running through the streets of New York. That's just a great episode. And then I think the last group, it was the Prague, the bachelor party, which is the funniest one in the first eight that I think they were like, oh, now I, okay. Now I know where this is, this is just going to be one of those shows. I'm in. And it seems like it's one of those three, right? You got sucked in one of those three spots. Yeah. And I think for Prague, it's like the depravity, the, the, like, delicious depravity of Prague is what got a lot of people hooked into sort of, oh, this is the, this is the juicy Sunday watch that I'm going to enjoy. If I'm not here for the boardroom.

Something that you and I did talk about is, like, I think people's answers for their favorite episodes are so different because Succession works on so many different levels. I think if you think of it like a soup, there are some shows that just give you like tomato bisque, like one flavor, right? And then this is your three, I don't know how long it takes to make chili, 24 hours, three days. I don't know. But like there's just all this different stuff. Do you like the emotional family stuff? Do you like the zinging one liners? Do you like watching the privilege class enjoying their privileges?

like whatever it is, there's something. And so I think it depends where you want to be hit, which episode you might latch onto the most. I'm really interested to hear your your Safe Room argument, honestly. All right. So for the listeners, Safe Room is the one where the characters are in a bunch of different places, but where all of them are shining for different reasons. We have, it's the episode where we meet Holly Hunter's character,

Ria Jewel. She comes in because Logan is the side. He needs to buy Pierce as fast as possible to stave off these people trying to take over the company. So we have that. We have Romans doing management training. We'll go into that. We have Schiv's first day in the office when she's starting to realize she's been sold, you know, a stack of nothing. You have Mo's funeral and you have some really good Connor Willis stuff.

Then you have this Hitler anchor crisis that Tom has to solve. And as he's solving it, we have a shooter in the office and everybody has to go to a safe room. But and then we have Roman and Jerry starts fermenting in this episode too. So we're juggling all these things. The reason I think this is the best episode is the last scene with Kendall and Shiv, I think is the single best scene out of the first 20 episodes. And a scene that honestly, I get choked up when I watch it. It's so well acted.

It's the best of both characters where it's like the first time we see Kendall just completely broken from the accident in season one and all the great stuff he does. And then Shiv, all the stuff she's doing in that scene. I think Sarah Snook's an incredible actress. I don't love the character. I think the character's all over the place. She's an amazing actress. What she does just with her face in that scene, as she realizes, like, he goes in for the hug

and she's like, she's doing that kind of, you know, she's a tough, tough lady. She's seen everything. And then she realizes this guy's broken and her face just changed. I think it's the best moment in the show. So that's why I have it as the number one episode. I think it's an incredible emotional moment. I completely agree with you. And I think, yeah, she gets her eyes filled, like with tears on a dime almost.

And it's just, it's hard to argue with that. I think, and I think you're right that there's strong plot lines for everyone. Like, you know, Connor and the funeral is some of the best Alan Ruck stuff we get. It's so good. Great, great platform for Willa, et cetera. for me though the true joy of succession is when all the players are mixing in the same room and because they're separated in safe room some in subpar safe rooms I don't get to see them sort of clashing and so actually I was trying to figure out my

favorite and I think it's the one directly after which is turnhaven where you see them all in the mix and that's the one where the family goes to court the Pierce family at their at their vacation home Turnhaven and you get this injection of new characters and you get also something that I really love a friend of mine described once described part of succession to me is liberal Doritos and as a liberal myself I enjoy eating liberal Doritos

but I think it's fun to watch the Pierce family come in because then you get these the skewering of the other side as well. And so it feels like fair and balanced skewering. And I just love the pierces. They're so ridiculous and insufferable. The way that Nan Pierce played by the great Cherry Jones, the way that she treats her, you know, her, I don't know, she's cook.

She's like, come have a cocktail with us. And she's like, no, I can't. She's like, oh, you never treat yourself. But then later takes full credit for the full family dinner. You know, it's all this like quiet back. ground stuff, just damning the pierces for being just as bad, despite their sort of high horse morals being just as bad. And the way that they're just quoting Shakespeare and all this sort of stuff, I just think that that mix, um, for me is, is really fun to watch. Meanwhile, the Roy's are

sniping each other. Meanwhile, Mark Millad, who's, you know, one of the great succession directors, is catching all of this in like crowded party scenes or a crowded dinner scene. The camera's constantly like moving around and catching little asides. I just think it's, I think that's, but it's close because same room is really good. No, I think that case is really smart because this is when the show is at its best when they're all in some sort of big somewhere. And the camera can bounce around and hit the different people and you just never know who's going to end up like dropping the gloves and hockey and going at it for 45 seconds.

Exactly. That's why those, the wedding shows, the last two. and The Bachelor Party, but really the wedding shows, where they're just over and over again, they're in the same spot. They're trying to flip things. There's so much jousting. And they kind of figured out that was the best way

to make the show work. That's kind of what, I think that helps my safe room case. This is one of the few times. They actually put everybody in different spots and the show is still this fully realized show where all the characters are still working. I don't know if they could have done that in season one

because we didn't have the, at this point now we have, this is the 16th episode or 14th episode. I haven't a backstory with each character that all the relationships make sense. Like, I don't know if Connor and Willa could have carried their own thing like that in the first season. I didn't even know what to make a Willa. And then once he had his political campaign at season two, Willa takes off. Willa like gets it. So great. She's on for the ride. You love what you love Willa.

I think even more than I do. I love Willa. I think she's a stealth favorite. She's got that great line at the funeral where she's like, it's not before there were laws, was it, talking about the Wolfpack and all this, you know, Connor's like, it was a different time. She's like, not before there were laws, right? And Willis Pass that she does on the eulogy and Alan Ruck's delivery of that and all of that is just, yeah, I completely agree.

I don't think you could even do Connor on his own. I don't think we get him on his own at all in the first season. And so I think establishing them. And it's great Kendall's, great Kendall stuff. The opening and closing roof moments for Jeremy Strong just. Well, there's definitely a self-destruction suicide theme hanging over this with him. Right. When he goes to the roof at the beginning, you're like, uh-oh.

When he goes back up. Uh-oh. And then at the end, after he sees Shiv, he goes back up again. And there's a lot of stuff that this is a completely different episode, the third time you watched it versus the first time. But the first time, there's some genuinely exciting moments in this. Like even the Roman Jerry thing, which they'd kind of been setting up, but they're like, nah, they won't actually go there. And then as it starts going there and they start having phones. It's like, oh, my God, they're going to do this.

And you can see even Jerry, the actress who plays Jerry, who's great, J. Smith Cameron. And she, you can see her. Like there's like real delight in her. I was like, oh my God, I guess we're going to do this. And it's just, it's so unexpected. And this episode has like five moments like that. Yeah. I like to call it the slime puppy moment.

Great, great Jerry line. No, and when I was watching that, I was like, oh, no, there's no way I'm going to win this argument if there's this great Jerry Roman moment in safe room. But in Turnhaven, they bring that phone conversation into the room. And J. Smith, Cameron also has this other great reaction shot on the other side of the door where she's like, what am I doing? What's happened in my life? She's in these like Laura Ashley like sat in pajamas. And it's just it's it's a it's great stuff. And they have the morning after awkward conversation. So yeah. The, uh, maybe the answer is safe room combined with Turnhaven is the greatest succession. A two part. It's really just two part because they're all part in the first one. And then we get to see them all together. but it's a continuation.

And it's also the last, maybe the last argument I'll make for Turnhaven is it's got that line from Naomi where she says, what does she say? She's like, the greatest pleasure in the world is watching you people melt down, right? You know, it's the most satisfying thing in the world. That's the premise of the show, right?

Is just watching the Roy's self-destruct. I was also thinking about these things as like, it's almost battle episodes. That safe room is sort of the night before the battle episode where they're all hunkered down in rooms and having conversations. And then this is actually them going into battle with the pierces. And just own goaling one after another, right?

They just, they tear themselves apart rather than the pierces having to tear them apart because they're so dysfunctional. One thing about, so if you just go through Safe Room and then we'll talk about Turn Haven after. Safe Room is juggling all of these plots at the same time and all of these different characters. really effortlessly. And you don't realize how many things are going on until, like, I actually wrote it down. Like, Kendall's melting down over the course of the episode. That's like the A theme of this is like, this guy's actually on the ropes. But then in his dad, like, who's a monster, he has real concern for him.

Like you can see it a couple of times. Even when they're all in the safe room is like where Kendall, Kendall comes in. He's like, Kendall, are you okay? And the underlying thing is he was probably thinking there's a shooter. I hope it wasn't Kendall. But it's one of the few times, like, he's actually like a decent caring dad and not just a complete monster. So you have that whole thing. You have Roman doing the management training, which is like really the perfect non-family scenery for him where he gets to be the big swinging dick.

But at the same time, he can't help himself for being a jackass. He makes friends with that guy, Brian. He claims his name's Ron Rock. There's like, he's in the gobbly goooker. costume making fun of people. So they're just letting him. And then it's like, oh, we didn't get enough Roman? Well, he's going to have aborted phone sex with his girlfriend and get mad and hang up

by having a fake orgasm. And they go right to Jerry. And it's just he's completely unhinged. So they realize him. You have the Shiv piece, which is all the frustrating, like, where do you stand on Shiv as a character? I think the actress is incredible. I think one of the flaws of the show is they never figured out is Shiv.

smarter than everyone else or in her own way like kind of just as flawed as everyone else and she's the only winner doesn't realize that. I think I've been listening to you make your case about SHIV

and I've been thinking about your SHIV issues and I don't wholly disagree I really liked Mallory Rubin sort of swung in with this interesting take where because Logan keeps calling her so smart

then we as an audience expect her to be smarter than she is And I think she is smart, but she's not cut out for this world. Like, this isn't her world. And, you know, it's hard not to accept the crown if it's offered to you, even if you're not suited to rule this particular kingdom. But, like, when you see her in other scenarios, like when she was doing her political career, I think she is incredibly capable and smart in that context. But I think what Logan is finding over and over again is none of his, all he wants is for there to be another him. And because his kids are so broken because of him, none of them are strong enough to be another him until Kendall pulls his move at the end of season two.

And that's why you get, I think that big smile from Logan where he's like finally. He's like finally. Yeah. Only one of them is like is doing a meet. But like, Shiv, I think she definitely thinks she's smarter than she is or thinks she's more capable in this arena. And that's a big mistake that she makes where she's like, oh, I know. I know what I'm doing without actually listening or observing it anyway, you know. Yeah, she's also like very professionally honest. Like her best trade is, here's my opinion.

I'm just going to tell you what I think, right? And where she lies is in her personal life. Like she, her relationship with Tom, whatever the hell is going on there. That's where all the deceit is. And that's where she'll look somebody in the face and tell them something and believe the complete opposite. But professionally, she's pretty candid. And you have to. that scene in in in safe room where which is another thing that happens they end up in the safe room with rea that's another piece rea comes in to represent the pierces and you have this incredible four-way negotiation scene we already know kendall's super threatened by shiv does know why she's there and shiv just starts talking to rhea about yeah this probably wouldn't work two separate cultures

like she's not negotiating at all but in a weird way it's perfect for the negotiation because then Kendall can come in on the other side and be like, all right, 21. And now he's, he's starting to swing it a little bit. And then Logan's watching the whole thing. And he's the opposite of Shiv. Like, he's full of shit all the time. He's like, you can trust me. I'm right here when my word is lost.

It's like, you're the biggest scumbag on the show. Nobody can trust you. An incredible Brian Cox impression. Yeah, you could trust me. But I think, I think that, um, what's interesting about Shiv, you're, you're right that she's professionally honest. But she doesn't have the conviction. Like she'll say these things.

And then she'll see that her dad doesn't like what she says and she'll immediately back down. And I think what he would want from her is for her to be professionally honest and then stand firm in that opinion. You know, that. Well, she does that. She's in the conference room earlier when they're talking about how to handle the ATN anchor in this safe room episode.

And Tom is like babbling about something. And she kind of does like the cut it off, get rid of this guy thing. and Ken was like, wait, what? Why did she get to her? I thought she wasn't here. But Shiv should have just at that point been like, hey, what are you guys doing? You have to get rid of this guy. He got married in Hitler's bunker.

He has multiple mind camp readings. Like, this guy needs to go, but she didn't have the conviction to do that. You're right. She's kind of dancing around. Yeah, listen. The dog's name is spelled differently, so it's fine. It's a little different. Yeah, it's a little different.

He's just taking an interest in that period in time. So you have that scene, the four-way negotiation, which Kendall, like the only time he has confidence anymore is when things are being negotiated, because he's just a complete mess in any other sort of social interaction. On top of it, you have Mo's funeral, which is just Willow saying, she's sorry about Mo and the wife being like, who's Mo? He just pulls her away. He's got to explain.

And they're able to navigate, like this pretty grisly, this guy was obviously had some molestation history, which is. a tough one, especially in 2021. And they're navigating it in a way. You're just like, you're laughing. But at one point, Carter goes, why can't I be the one caught in a lockdown with a maniac? Like, really, like, genuine thing.

It's like, why did I draw the short straw here? And then he gives the speech, which, what's that top four Allen Rock moments? I mean, yeah, it's right up there. Lester was a man. And now he's dead. And it's very sad. Or what is his, what is his fending off of the journalist?

Connor Roy has been interested in politics from a very young age. She says it over and over again. That journalist, by the way, a pop culture icon. Jessica Hecht. She's been in like a hundred things. Breaking bad. A single guy, I think also. Friends?

Yeah, friends. Kicking and screaming. She's the stewardess. You go through. She's been in a bunch stuff. But then you, so then the MVP of this episode, Tom. Tom throw in 102 miles an hour. There's a scene where he's got his feet on some assistant who's made nail over as a human footstand.

He has to navigate this Hitler crisis. He, as soon as there, it seems like there's a shooter, he's almost bowling over people to try to get to the safe room, ends up in the wrong safe room. All his insecurity comes out. Wait, there's another safe room. What safe room are you in? And it all leads to Greg basically trying to break up with them and Tom flipping. out, which I sent me that clip yesterday. As a water bottle. Yeah, as a

welcome to the ringer moment, you sent me the water bottle clip from the safe room. I'll be parsing that for a long time. But yeah, yeah, the water bottle meltdown is a top 10 succession moment for sure, maybe even top five. They circled around Tom as a comedic figure.

And then I think in season two just leaned into it. Season one, it was like, this guy's But I didn't know what to make of them. I wasn't sure like, is this a real relationship? What's going on here? Is he confident? But then in season two, they're like, this guy is now our comedic foil.

I'm great. Yeah. And I think again, that's a point in Prague's favor. Because I think Prague is really where Tom and Greg like lock in as a comedic duo. And I think that is that is a moment that people latch on to. But like you swallowed your own load, right? I think that's right. It was hot.

It was hot. But I think that, yeah, this Tom and Greg melt down. Maybe Turnhaven does lack from, it has no Greg. That's a thing that it's missing. Oh, is Greg not in Turnhaven? He doesn't get to go to the Pierce family retreat. It's true. So I'll think about that as maybe a mark in your favor.

But yeah. Tom says very well. I accept your blackmail, Greg. Like they're like like making a fantasy football trade or something. But I mean, the thing about Tom, Matthew McFeddon's performance is he is comic relief, but then he's capable of these huge emotional moments. And I think in Turnhaven,

when Shiv completely nosedives at dinner and the two of them then go back up to their room, and he's like, what does this mean for me? And she's, she, she is never listening to Tom when he's talking to her. Never ever. Never. She's having a conversation with herself at all times.

Unless he's engaging with what she's saying, but she's never, ever talking to him, never listening to his concerns. And she just says, I fucked it. And you just see this, like, he's so vulnerable and exposed to that moment. He's been, he's been shit on the entire episode because they made in the punching bag at this dinner because he's the face of, you know, their Fox News, right? So they made him the punching bag. And so he had to put up with all of that.

And now his one safety blanket, Shiv, is, is proving threadbare. So, like, you know, he's just. And I think he plays all of that just as well. as he plays the comedy. I think he's a really underrated. I mean, it's hard because there's so many heavy hitters in succession. But like, I think Matthew McFendon is is incredible, really good. He jumps out the most than the rewatches. Yeah. I think that's right. It's, it's a way more complicated performance by him and a more complicated character than I think you realize the first time around. And he's a way better. I mean, that scene when he, when he's jogging and great,

is like, hey, it's in an earlier episode. Greg's like, hey, I think she's at the wedding weekend. Yeah. I think she's having an affair with Nate. And he's like, stop it, stop it. And then Greg, and all of a sudden he's jumping on him. He seems like he's punched him and runs off. And you realize, like, even though there's a climbing aspect to him marrying into the

Wright family, he really does genuinely love Shiv, it seems like, right? That's the thing is that he holds so many things. like he's he's a very sensitive he's over sensitive and he's a callous asshole i mean like he he enjoys punching down where he can but then i also think he genuinely loves gregg like i think this breakup scene with the water bottle is because he's like genuinely hurt because as much as he punches down on gregg like he he loves having him as an ally um i read this i really wish i could cite where it was but i read this really interesting um detail which is the costume designer says said that they match Tom and Greg, their costumes are matched

because they're sort of the spiritual couple of the show versus Tom and Shiv. Tom doesn't match Shiv. He matches Greg. And I was like, I love that. I love that detail. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons is such a great show is you could spin off different characters into their own spin-off shows and I'd at least watch the pilot, right? If Tom and Greg HBO was like, hey, Tom and Greg have their own show now,

but cool, where is it? I could watch a show with Stewie trying to buy different companies. Stooey, I love Stewie. He's a real favorite of mine. And like every time he comes back, when you think he's gone and he comes back, like that's, I'm just always happy to see him. He comes back a little angrier each time. Connor and Willa's presidential campaign,

I definitely would have watched seven seasons of easily. Absolutely. But yeah, you go on down the line. And yeah, so my case for Safe Room would just be, I think it has the best scene, as I said. And I think all of the main characters that we care about are all at the top of their games in this episode for different reasons. Doing really tough stuff and they pull it all off in like 58 minutes. But you're kind of winning me over on the shows at its best when everybody's in the same room theory.

It's something we've seen. I think we've seen the Roy kids do it a couple times where you watch them and you know that if they all just work together, they would be fine, but they just can't because there is this single prize that their dad is holding over their heads that they all want, except for Connor, doesn't seem to quite want it. What do we think's wrong with Connor? I don't, well, he's a different mom. I don't know. And there's some dark.

He's just off. He's like just a step off at all times. And they all kind of know it and accept it. Isn't there something a mention in the Dundee episode of his mom going to like a mental institution or something like that. There's something that we don't know. There's also, I was saying this to you of her text, that there's something, there's a thing about Shiv we don't

know, which is she keeps saying I was a complete mess when I met Tom. And I want to know what that is. And I feel confident in the show that they're just laying track. I mean, even the Uncle Moe slash Lester joke, that's a holdover from season one. Like, they were, like, Moe is a character in season one. And the fact that they held on to that Moe Lester

joke until Midway in season two, I think they just have a lot of track that they're laying and a lot of hints that they're dropping that hopefully will pay off. But Connor, another thing that jumped out to me in the rewatch is early on,

if ever there's a chance to align with someone, Connor always aligns himself with Shiv. And I don't know why, but that's just something where he's like, I don't have an opinion. And then at the end of the conversation, he'll say whatever Shiv says. You know, and I don't know what that's about,

but I'm interested to know. Well, you mentioned the siblings. One of the things this show does so smartly and so well is they'll have, they sprinkle little moments in. They'll have scenes where they're interacting like they're actually siblings, right? There's that early, I think in the first season, where Roman gets mad at Shiv and they just start punching each other. And it's like, like, that's what my son and my daughter, hopefully though, wouldn't do that when they were adults. but it's when you're like a brother's sister and you're close in age, you just get mad at each other like that.

And to me that was realistic, even though it was ridiculous that they were adults, that they would like punch each other in the shoulder. Or you have the scene where they go when they're at the wedding, when they go in the dock and they all go to Smoke Pot. And you could just see like there's real history with all the characters that date back to them being kids, having an absolute nightmare mother,

who's just the meanest person. and who's ever lived. And then this dad who is just a horrible father. And all they had was each other and these fucked up friendships that they had that it seems like they're still sorting through. But I always appreciated that about the show. Yeah, I completely agree with you. There's also a scene on the yacht towards the end of season two, the finale, I think,

where they're just all sitting around. And they do just feel like siblings. Yeah. They just feel like siblings. And again, I'm just rooting for them to join forces like Voltron. And like they could definitely take down their father if they could only. work together, but they never will, feels like they never will be able to do that because of this other thing. And like, to go back to what you're saying about Tom and Shiv to a certain

extent, I have this theory that when they wrote the, I think they've confirmed this a little bit in some interviews, but that when they wrote the pilot, they had some different character archetypes in mind for these people. If you watch Kendall and the pilot, I think he's almost unrecognizable to the Kendall that we see. You know what I mean? Like we meet him. Uh, you know, you know, he's listening to like hip hop to hype himself up all this sort of stuff and um he just seems like a thinner uh asshole character and i think once the writers knew the caliber of performers they had in all of this these characters started to move shiv is like shev is very you know she's wearing this like frumpy woven sweater she's very different in the pilot than she is in later episodes

And so I think they sort of bent the characters to match the performers, especially Jeremy Strong. I can see that in a big way. I think Tom is similar where you don't know what to make of him in the beginning because I think he's originally written as just this sort of like unctuous toadie sort of character. And then I think they just deepened him to become a kind of character that we haven't seen. And I think that's what's beautiful about Succession is like because all of these characters are pursuing all these warring. instincts inside of them none of them fit neatly into a single box.

You don't know when they're going to be kind, when Shiv is going to give her brother a hug and when she's absolutely going to cut his throat. You don't know in any given scene

what they're going to do. I don't know. That's sort of in my that's why you're always on the end of your seat watching because you don't know what they're going to do at any time. You made a really crucial point.

people don't they can make the show they can cast it and they could they'll maybe write the first four episodes or the first six or they'll write the first three and sketch out the whole season something like that but they don't really know what they have you know and i think like billions is a good example like i'm a big billions fan they the the wife acts his wife who i think was supposed to be a bigger part in the show and the character didn't work for whatever reason was it the actresses fault was the character's fault And as the show evolved, they kind of reduced her, reduced her, and then she was gone. I look at, if you watch the Succession Pilot again, you're totally right about Jeremy Strong. Roman's not close to Roman yet.

He's a little more on the Fredo side. He's a little more black sheepy. He's got like some one-liners, but it's not like what he became. And I just think Culkin was probably a way better, funnier actor than they realized. And I also think he had lips some of that shit. I think at some point, what, by episode four, five of first season, he's off. They're just like, go. You're basically like, come up with some jokes for this scene and he goes. And then his character takes off. There's no way they knew Jerry was

going to be this important. Like that has to be a, we love this actress. We let's figure out ways to shoehorn her in. Right. That rule was supposed to be a man. Jerry is supposed to be a man. Seriously? Yeah. And then they put Jason and Cameron in there. So yeah. And she cried from the first episode. It's like, oh, I like that actress. She's really good. And then it's like, oh, I wish she was in more scenes and they keep going. So yeah, I think there's some, they knew what they had in Chiv. Like she, Sarah Snook had done some real stuff. They knew she was a good actress.

They knew what that character is. I don't think that character has changed that much. But you can make a case. I forget who said this to me, that this is the best, maybe it was fantasy. Nobody's ever nailed the casting of a show better than this. When you talk about the top eight characters, they just didn't miss. any of them in any way. Yeah, and I don't think there's any character. As you say, like, a smart showrunner, smart writer's room has to be pliable. And like once you can see what

an actor can do, uh, meet them where they are or quietly shunt them off to the side as, as in the case of like Malin Ackerman or something like that, you know, like, uh, you know, just expand and contract where you can to fit the talent that you have. But I think what's true is that if anyone were to rank the succession performances of succession characters. But what's happening next week? You could probably make the case of almost any order. Like I wouldn't say,

no, you pick the weakest link for number one. I mean, I think Jeremy Strong has to be up there towards the top. But other than that, you could convince me of any number of combinations. And I would agree. Did he win the, who won the Emmy from Succession last year?

Was it strong? Yeah, strong. Yeah. I think there's just... I think it's... Honestly, I think it's one of the great performances. I don't know if it's my favorite character, but I think if you're talking about...

We'll just take HBO only. We'll remove all the other networks and we'll just say, best HBO dramatic performances. Gandalfini wins. I was going to say, you're going to have the Sopranos fans come for you. From a scale of one to Gandalfini. Strong's close. He's definitely on that next tier.

It has to be mentioned. in the wrong hands the show falls apart. And he's a very, he's a very internal actor. Like a lot of his performance is just sort of like deep under the surface. If you have ever interviewed or listened to an interview with Jeremy Strong, he's he's very, very fascinating kind of performer. I talk. I've been afraid to have him on a podcast.

He's super quirky, right? He's really smart, but he's very serious. And he'll quote long passages from like, realca at you or something like that. And so on like a podcast flow, it can be a little tough. But I talked to him actually on a podcast last year or two years ago, whenever.

And he was talking about being on, he was, he's in Lincoln. And he was talking about how much he learned, he absorbed from Daniel Day Lewis on working near him in Lincoln. So I think he's modeled himself on the Daniel Day Lewis side of things, which is just complete character immersion. I mean, I...

Well, the reason you know, the reason you know he's a great actor is like the scenes when he falls off the rails and they're in New Mexico and he's like, he becomes meth Kendall for that one episode. It's a completely different character. And he's got, and even like in the last episode before he crashes the car when he sees Greg. And Greg's kind of like trying to blackmail him. And he's like, Greg, I see you, Greg. I like it. Yeah. Like he has these false bravado things that I think it's just really hard. to pull the switch where you can be the completely depressed guy and safe room, false bravado guy,

meth guy, I'm going to take over my dad guy. There's like six different layers to this. Yeah. I, I, yeah, so you're saying it goes Gandal Feney and then strong. Is that your assertion? Gandalfi is untouchable. But I think if you're going that next level, it's got to be up there with any other HBO performance. I wouldn't disagree. I can remember in a drama. Like, I think it's that good, honestly. I don't know if he's my favorite character. You'll find out next week on TV concierge, but I will say Tom has gained a lot of steam in the rewatch. I mean, it's hard. It's hard to disagree. But the problem with Tom, like, if you're, I don't mean to like bite into your next thing. No, no, I want your input. I'm not done yet. But it's hard to rank Tom without Greg. I think it's Tom plus Greg.

You know what I mean? It's like the entity that is Tom Greg. Do you know? I wouldn't. The hybrid. I wouldn't be upset. What was it, Tom Cat? Yeah. Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes through it, like the Tomcat. Way more successful. Can you see Tom jumping on Oprah's couch with excitement about something? I could see it happening.

No question. I mean, he basically does that on the show. All right. So on TV concierge, during this season, season three, you're going to be doing a deep dive midweek podcast with Sean Fantasy, who is a really, honestly, a selfish co-host, but you're going to have to deal with that. He's very selfish. He will not. sell any of your material and he'll try to walk all over you. So just be ready for that guy.

Huge, huge ego. So what you're saying is, huge ego in that Sean fantasy. What you're saying is I'm going to be the like human footstool and Sean's just going to stretch out and rest of the room. Just watch out. Watch out. That guy will say he's like shib. You can't trust them. No, I'm really looking forward to that. We're going to be blown out succession. We're going to have not only that on Wednesdays, but then on Fridays, a pre-cap show with Chris Ryan and Big Was. We're looking forward ahead. So I'm treating this. like the NBA playoffs. It's a big show. I love having you at the ringer. I'm really glad

you finally happened. I love being here. It's been great to hear you with Mallory and excited to have you on the pods and all that stuff. So welcome aboard. It's a pleasure. Thanks for this splashing introduction. I appreciate it. All right. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton. Stay tuned for Friday. Ted Lassow season finale, Van and Chris got screeners. So are you pro Ted Lassow or against it? Okay.

This season's been... A little too much backlash, right? People just have too much spare time. This season's been a little messy, but I think that has to do with Apple. It's sort of late in the game, asked them to add two episodes. So they shoved these sort of two standalones,

and I think that messed with the flow a bit. And then, yeah, I mean, you know, Ted Lassow sort of flew too high. And so people got to come for the king, right? Like, that's just what some people do. So, yeah, it was just too liked. That just can't happen. happen in pop culture. We can't have that all. I'll be interested in how Succession navigates that

because I think this month is going to be a lot of everyone loves Succession. There's going to be a lot of pressure on that first episode. Whoever didn't watch it in the moment, 100% caught up during the pandemic, except my mom, who's like, I don't like those people. I don't, I watched the first one and I just didn't like any of them. And I'm not, and I'm like, Mom, you would love this show more than anybody. She said, no, no, I'm out. Just being stubborn about it. Meanwhile, she'll watch like some French subtitle thing on Amazon for 20 episodes. I don't get her. We could tell her that some of the succession episodes have subtitles. There are some.

That's what I should tell her. I should tell her. It's a French, it's a French show that they subtitled and dubbed into English. And that's how it happened. All right, Joanna, thanks for doing this with me. Appreciate it.