The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 3 Episode 2 with Alan Ruck

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

Sean and Joanna rejoin to talk about the second episode of 'Succession' Season 3. They discuss the uneasy alliance that the Roy children are beginning to form, Logan's return from exile, and the blight that is ham salad. Later Joanna talks to actor Alan Ruck about his pivotal role in the show. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Joanna Robinson Guest: Brian Cox Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. I'm Sean Fennessee and this is the Prestige TV pod and Big Picture. We're at the end of a long American century. With that being said, I'm joined by my co-host and partner in Succession podcasting, Ringer Senior Staff Writer, Joanna Robinson. Hi, Joanna.

Hello, Gregory. Sorry, I just want to try that. Hi, Sean. Today we're diving deep on Succession Season 3, episode two. It's called Mass in Time of War. Just like last week's season premiere, this episode was written by Jesse Armstrong, directed by Mark Malad. At the end of our chat today, Joanna will have a chat with Alan Ruck, who you may know as Connor Roy.

Please hang out for that chat. So, Joanna, where last week are, our friends in Royhood were spread across the globe and racing at a relentless pace. This episode was a little different. Contained a fair, a parlor game of Russian roulette. The four siblings come together. They explore their common ground, their natural differences. And maybe they show their true selves.

Logan, on the other hand, is trapped in an airport hotel in the Balkans, completely separated from the power and all the juice of this episode. So what did you think of episode two of this season? And what do you think it meant for the rest of this season? I really loved this episode. I think I've heard a few people wonder if maybe the structure of this episode was influenced by COVID compliance and like that. That's a take that I've heard going around. But these are my favorite kinds of scenes, just people talking in rooms.

I famously love those scenes. And so to have and I'm on record as saying my favorite of succession is the four siblings together in a room trying to fight through their damage to a common ground, common course. So this is like catnip for me. I love this. And I love especially having the four of them located in a literal child's bedroom was like the perfect setting for these kids and their mess. How about you, Sean? I enjoyed it as well. We're on the same page here.

I feel like this show is really at its best when the whole family is together. And this is as close as we're able to get because I don't know the next time we're going to see Logan and Kendall in a room together. It might be a little while this season. I thought it was a pretty heavy episode in terms of its themes, in terms of the nature of the conversation. I think it was simultaneously profound and blowhardy in a way that only succession can be. Lots of lingo, lots of interplay, lots of shaded meaning. It was fascinating how they kind of went in all of the literary and ideological concepts of this show,

like on the page. It was one of the talkiest episodes in one of our talkiest shows that we've seen. seen in a long time. And frankly, I dug that. You know, there are references to Alexander the Great and Greek tragedy and the Bible and I am not my brother's keeper. We're kind of riddled throughout this episode. And so I dug all of it. I mean, from a, from a big picture standpoint, what did you, what is your, your Kendall Roy's speech here about what, what this means to the show? It's interesting. Like, we were, you know, we were trying to figure out some of the bigger themes maybe of this episode. And I, for me, this episode is about trust and

how little there is in this family. And it's not just, it's not just Kendall trying to, like, herd the cats that are his siblings into a sort of a group here. But it's a, you see instances of all of them sort of reaching out to someone, an ally at some point. And all of those ally ships are toxic or tainted or fragile or whatever in some way or another. Everyone's acting at their own agenda. And, you know, and you see that, like, you see Roman and Jerry, even like, one of our most solid alliances gets, you know, shaking up at this episode when Jerry senses her own power beat

and threatened here. The Tom and Shiv thing is so toxic because, you know, she's lying about where she is and he's lying about knowing where she is. And it's like, you know, that's, that's a mess. And then you, you know, Ken, like, who does Ken have other than Jess here? Like, I was trying to think of, like, who's on the list here for Ken? And it's like, it's Stewie, I suppose. Like, Stewie, who once was an. ally for him in season one, but is also working his own agenda. For Logan, even, maybe Marsha, but Marcia's working her own agenda here. So it's just like, who do you trust?

Who do you lean on? They have no one to lean on. None of them do. And they can't find a way to lean on each other. You know what I mean? It's a great insight. I feel like they've all worked so hard to build this impure palace of hate. And now they're having to reckon with it, right? They have to deal with the fact that there's no reason. to trust anyone because nothing here is built on trust. And, you know, Logan, more than anybody always is referring to how important his family is. His family comes first. It's all about his

kids that he's doing everything for his kids, which we obviously can very clearly see through that he is this vanglorious, you know, dying king, dying lion. And it has nothing to do with his kids. It has everything to do with what he's accomplished and getting the credit for what he wants. But it trickles down to every single character that no one, there's not a single person on the show. There's not a single person on the show that you could say, those two people have a good and healthy relationship. Even Greg and his grandpa, you know what he mean? Like, he reaches out to his grandpa for help. And grandpa's like, let me take you to my lawyer who's going to be working my agenda like around this. We're not interested in protecting you, Gregory. We're interested in like what we want to do here.

You know what I mean? Yeah, it's beyond transactional. It's like strictly manipulative. Every single person is like, what can I siphon from you like, like the, the, the, demon blood. Like, it's crazy how intense this is. I wonder if that will evolve over the season. It's interesting, you can kind of like read between the lines a little bit of like, do Roman and Shiv trust each other more now than they have in the past because of the fact that they have been bonded together by the sense that Kendall is ultimately not to be trusted, that it makes no sense to side with Kendall over Logan. Maybe they can forge these new kinds of ally ships, you know, to use your word, that there is something brewing there. Yeah, I mean, not to be.

make it into a game of survivor, but it kind of has to be a game of survivor, you know what I mean? And it's interesting because, you know, Chavon and Shiv and Kendall, like, seemed to have this kind of understanding where, like, Romans the fuck up and Conner's the first pancake, you know what you mean? And Chavon and Kendall are, like, the two most political animals here in the pack. And when she first shows up at his apartment and, like, she smiles and he smiles, you know what mean? And they're immediately needling each other. I mean, he's sort of trying to roll out the red carpet, but they're immediately needling each other. But there is this, it feels like a genuine, like, can we? Should we? Together? You know, and then it all falls apart. You get the impression that if five

years ago they had tried to unite, they might well have been able to take over the company in a seamless way. If he were less desperate, if she were a little less cool to the touch and eager to kind of protect her own independence. Maybe they could have been this super team, but it's impossible now. There's too much ego. There's too many burned bridges in their pathway. And the way in which the very distinctive way in which Logan has broken all of his children, no praise sticks, I think, to them.

And they're all constantly looking out for reassurances. I was noting this like direct parallel between, you know, Kendall saying to Greg, are you where you tied your dick to a runaway train? And then Roman, excuse my French as always, and then Roman saying to Jerry, where you change yourself to a fire hydrant that shoots out cultural insensitivity and sperm. Like both of them are like, am I an albatross

around your neck dragging you down? Is that who I am? And then Chauvin asked Tom, like, tell me you love me, you know what I mean? Which is almost a very unchavon thing to say. But in this time, they're all just looking out for this reassurance that they're worthy of something. And the only source of worth that they're getting in this episode is actually

Logan who very in like before the donut move which is maybe my all-time favorite strategic move that I've ever seen before they all gather in Kendall's apartment he reaches Roman and he reaches Connor

and he says something to each of them where he was like you know you're my number one is something like he's like you're the first is something he said to Connor which is something that shouldn't work at this point on Connor right it shouldn't work on anyone

but Connor hangs on the phone and turns to Will and he's like well, the first, it's me. You know, and you're like, Connor, how did that work? And he tells Roman, like, I need you. I need you, my boy. I need you. And I'm like, how does that work on Roman?

How does any of this shit work on them? And at the end, the ultimate is to Chivon. But, like, he's already planting these, like, after abandoning Connor on a tarmac. He's like, sorry to hear about your refrigerated cheeses. But I promise you're very important to me. And it somehow works. I don't know. There's nothing like filial piety and filial guilt, though, you know, like as a young father myself and as a son for many, many years, you know, your parents just have a profound effect on you. I think it's interesting that throughout the show, all of the kids seem very eager for independence, but their definition of independence is being in charge. You know, it's like getting the top job means I can be free of the anxieties of my siblings and my parents. But also, they're still going to be utterly entrenched in this world that their dad built.

You know, they're really never going to be able to escape that. Chauvin has spent most of her adult life being outside of it, and all she wants us to be in it. Even Connor, who doesn't have any aspirations to necessarily running Wastar Royco or ATN or anything like that, still wants to be the president. And who does his father have a relationship with, but the president of the United States may be a better relationship than the one he has with Connor. So there's something, there's just this like this anxiety in their psychology where they never really know what they want, except they just. just want to have more. Well, it's true. And, like, I won't do this thing this week, again, where I spoil our own interview.

But that was my number one question for Alan Ruck was I was like, Connor's the first to break. But he's the only one in the room who doesn't want the throne. So what is it? You know what I mean? Like, why is Connor breaking first here? I just thought that that was such an interesting moment. And, and I think that, well, again, Logan has broken all of them to the point where, I mean, Connor aside, Roman and Chavon and Kendall think the only way that they will have worth in this life is to be their father's successor.

That's the only prize worth gunning for. And there's no second prize. There's no, well, we'll be free of him if we all work together. Because like people are telling them constantly, yes, it will work. If you all stuck together, this would work. Even Jerry says so. It would work. And it's still not enough to keep.

them together because Logan has has drilled into their head that the only thing that matters is being number one. That's it. Well, very shortly start breaking down the kind of four quadrant storytelling here. But I got to say, I am one of four. I have three siblings. Are you? And one of my siblings has a different mother. And so I have a very similar, I wouldn't say I have a similar dynamic emotionally to the Roy clan. But I know what it's like to be in a room with three other siblings and having a conversation, a complex conversation about what's going on in our family. And as absurd and elevated as the premise and the experiences of the people are on succession, the reason the show keeps me wrapped around its finger is because it is ultimately about the

difficulty of close relationships. You know, this is a show about people, you know, you mentioned Tom and Schiff, for example. We see, you know, Jerry and Roman. Obviously, we see this family dynamic. Even people like Frank and Carl and the sort of small orbit, this adopted family that they've built, it really knows how to nail the rhythm and the chemistry of people that are together all the time or thinking about each other all the time. And I'm amazed that, I mean, what are they now? 22 episodes into their run. It is humming at an incredible pace. You know, like this is not, there's no third season lag here. There's no fall off.

Like this show is still running white hot, which is just, it's, it's exciting. I want to celebrate that. Okay, so the donuts are obviously like the big, the big pastry of the episode. But the beta pastry is what Roman brings to Kendall. And like, I've seen this. People think of it as like a very like minor or hollow gesture. I don't know. To me that sounded so sibling.

Like the way he said it was like, remember that thing you like? Like I brought it for you. You know what I mean? I have a sister and like I could definitely be like, I got you an ice cream cookie. and she would know what that, you know, we would know what that means. It's not even what it's called, but we know that that's what it's called. And if I brought it to her, it would mean something. Do you know what you mean?

And that's, that felt like a very, like a tiny, beautiful sibling moment in this episode of toxicity. In the same way that Roman's response to Kendall being somewhat touched by it, he's immediately just like, just forget it, just shut up. It's just the thing. Just whatever. Leave me alone. That also is a very familiar sibling relationship. You don't necessarily say, like, you're so.

welcome, my dear brother. I'm always thinking of you. And for you, I purchased this pastry that you'd never talk about your siblings. There's a shorthand and you're embarrassed by all of those kinds of interactions. Yeah. Anyway, let's go into the show. We're talking a lot about the kids. Let's hold the kids. Let's start with Logan. Because the show, once again, opens with Logan. And I find that's interesting that they keep opening with Logan. And Logan is in this pretty desperate place, it seems like. He feels like everything is slipping through his fingers. He can't get the lawyer he wants. He's trying to marshal all of the, I don't know, I guess this sort of like important voices of his world. You know, he mentions his brother. He mentions Sid. Obviously, Marsha becomes very important to him in this episode and

again in his life. I'm not getting smuggled out of here in a fucking pack case. Okay. Seemed to be kind of a mantra for Logan in this episode. When do you think it was that Logan hit Rot Bottom? Was it the ham salad? Like, is that it? Is that when he was like, I've reached the bottom? them. That was a pretty grim looking salad. I've got to say, first of all, don't put ham in my salad under any circumstances. That's just, what the hell are you doing? Secondly, is that some sort of Bosnian delicacy? Has anyone looked into that? I don't want to be insensitive to Bosnia. If that is something they enjoy, I hope they enjoy it. But to me, ham, I mean, you put ham

in like a, what, like a club salad, right, or something like that, but like I am not, or Cobb salad, sorry, but I'm not for it. Ham is a meat that does not belong in salad is my stance. That was some wilted-ass lettuce too. I'm not into it. That could have been rock bottom. That could have been a low for him. I think getting shut out on Lisa and Chavon not closing the deal there probably spun him out.

Chauvinn not picking up, I think, is a big thing too. And that was something that, you know, Brian Cox said last week. You know, there's this interesting moment. I swear, we are going to say on Logan, but there's this interesting. moment where Kendall's like, dad would sell all of us up the river. Well, maybe not you, Chavon.

And I talked to Brant Cox last week. I was like, what is it about Chavon for Logan? And he was just like, well, you know, fathers and daughters. So, yeah, not being able to get Chavon on the phone is like, and I almost think that like not getting

Chavon on the phone, I don't know that he would have made the offer that he does at the end of the episode if she hadn't gone dark in this episode. He makes it seem like this is his plan all along, but was it? I mean, only he knows, you know? That's part of the reason why I think,

there's no opportunity for trust is that everyone is always managing the situation. You know, Chavon knows that by not picking up the phone there, she's making a move and she's sending a message. And it's pretty effective. So let's just stay inside the world of Logan for a little bit. So obviously he calls Roman, you mentioned, and he makes sure that Roman is checking in on Chavon. And, you know, he tells him not to see Kendall, but then Roman does decide to see Kendall, which is notable. Later in the episode, we see Marcia does in fact return with a lawyer in tow. What did you think of the Marcia and Logan first

the first re-meat, I would say? I promise I'm not trying to veer off of the Logan path, but I always like to think of, well, right now, especially, I like to think of Logan and Kendall in parallels. And like, when you think of how Kendall approaches Rava last

week with just sort of like, praise me, praise me, praise me, and Logan has a sort of like, I can't, I'm not going to go into old shit. He said that before, and I kind of want to adopt that stance myself in life. Like, any time someone wants to talk to something that happened like three days ago, I'm like, you listen, I don't go backwards. I only plow forward.

You know, but he's like, basically, I'm not going to talk about Holly Hunter. I'm not going to talk about any of that. He offers no apology. No cringing, bowing, bowing, scraping. None of that for her. He gets what he wants anyway. And what I think is interesting is she says, like, you know, I'll have some thing. I will have a conversation.

I think that's what she says. And so he knows that there's going to be some strings to this. And my favorite part of all that is he's not, he's like, I'm not even in this conversation. I'm going to be in the next room. Hugo's going to handle this. And Carolina's going to handle this. And I'm not going to handle this. Again, it works for him to not be in the room.

Whereas Kendall, even all over on top of you can't get a deal closed. So I don't know. We talked about the brilliance of the direction of this show last week. And this was a moment, the one you just cited. where I feel like the direction is really powerful because you see, you see Marsha sitting at the table with Hugo negotiating. Caroline is on the phone,

and we don't see until the camera moves onto her, her kind of business manager or lawyer, whoever that is that is accompanying Marsha to Sarajevo. The camera turns to the lawyer, and we see that Hugo and the lawyer are going to start to negotiate. And then the camera turns once more, and we can see through the hallway into the other room, Marsha effectively fully returning to Logan.

and the negotiation is going to happen almost within earshot in the other room and Marcia is going to claim more cash and she's going to secure her son's future within the company and there is something amazing about the way that these families do business with each other. You know, the fact that Marcia doesn't need Logan to grovel but she needs more points on the package.

She needs just more compensation. And once again underlines that everything here is beyond transactional into this morbid psychological bartering system that they've all created to interact with one another. And maybe, you know, again, like, whenever Kendall stumbles,

I'm like, what could you've learned from your father in the situation to help you here? And it's like maybe the issue, I mean, we know that the main issue of the kids is like when it comes down to it, they all want the top seat or whatever. That's the breaking point. But maybe the other issue is Kendall

even trying to, to appeal on moral grounds, which is so patently ridiculous when, like, really, it's just oh yeah, sure, work it out. Work it out with Hugo, Carolina. Yeah, it's brutal. I mean, eventually, you know,

Logan does kind of get the pieces back together. You get the sense that in a way, Marcia returning to him is almost like he picked up a one-up in the video game of life, you know? Like, he's like, I'm back in a way. He decides he needs to go back to the city. You know, we see what transpires

with his, with his kids and the fact that, you know, maybe throughout this episode, Kendall has been weakened because the siblings eventually abandoned him, returns to the U.S. for the photo op. What do you, what do you think of the de-plaining in the photo op? I love this. This is like optics, optics with Logan always, you know what I mean? And so he's like, he needs a kid's there. Love that Chavon stayed in the car. You know what I mean? Like, that was her power move. It's like, I'm not going to give you the photo opportunity that you're demanding here. And, uh, and he's just Like, there's also, I think there's a moment when, like, Carl's almost kind of trying to get his attention and Logan's not even looking at him.

He gives Roman a play punch, which is really disturbing, given that we've seen him, like, actually hit Roman. You know what I mean? Like, of all the gestures to greet Roman with and of all the kids to greet with a play punch, this was, like, the most chilling, I thought. So I thought that was a great sort of moment of, like, the king's back. Here he is. You know, what did you think? Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Obviously, kind of like, once again, brilliant, like, chess management on Logan's part. You know, he's just moving the pieces of his life around. And when he doesn't get one little piece from Shiv, he has to kind of nudge her on that, you know, like, why not come out for a hug and kind of giving her shit before also realizing he needs to give her a big important job, which maybe it is, maybe it isn't important, the presidency of Wastardtoy. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? You know, and like he, you know, again, he's implying that this is a place. all along that Jerry is the fall woman, which is really, and it's all of the visuals here are

really interesting, like Tom getting into Shiv's car and then out, we don't see their conversation at all. We just see him get out without a word from Logan, but just sort of like acquiescing to the fact that Logan obviously is going to sit here. When Logan's talking about Jerry in this way, like as sort of a fall woman or someone to absorb all of this badness, we see Roman get in the car with Jerry. And so it's sort of like the question here is like, if push comes to shove and Logan, you know, puts Jerry in front of a speeding train, like, where will Roman sit with all of that? We don't, we don't know. Like, I have questions about that. And then someone pointed out to me that, you know, I just really love the way in that final shot with Sean and

Logan, how they're both like smiling and leaning back. And I was going back and looking at that. I just, I just tweeted about this, but like it made me realize that they're dressed very similarly. And then throughout the episode before that, she was dressed very similarly to Kendall. They were both wearing white together. So it was sort of like this coded team switching via wardrobe, which is something succession is completely capable of and makes it just on an extra level altogether as a show, you know. I love that observation. Very smart. We'll see what happens.

We'll see if Chavon is actually going to get any responsibility or we'll have the rug pulled out from under her once more. Listen, all these kids are forever standing on rugs that are constantly bullying. All the rugs are constantly coming out from one of you kids. Come on. They're all magic carpets, too, so it's really a messy situation for them. It's tough. It's tough. Let's talk about the big centerpiece of the episode.

Yeah. Obviously, the show is very much revolving around Kendall's actions from the season finale in season two and the aftermath of that. When we are in Rava's home where Kendall has created a, what did he call it? Was it action station? in the first episode? That's the Logan's phraseology. Yeah, his clean jar of an action station. Which he gets a little bit unclean, I would say, in this episode, based on the interactions

that he has. Where are Rava and the kids, by the way? Great question. Probably in their other $25 million condo apartment in New York City. The backup condo. Sure, sure, sure. Love to go to my backup condo and shit goes sideways, you know? How's your backup condo doing these days?

Oh, you know, it's being remodeled right now, so it's tough because I only have the one in the city. But there you go. Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you, actually, the big, like, talking about classical illusions, there's this Trojan horse moment. I wanted to know what your read is on this. My immediate take on it was that Stewie identified that, in fact, Kendall's move was the Trojan horse and that inside the Trojan horse is Stewie and Sandy, and that they will pop out and fully take over the empire because of this action that Kendall has done.

of this bewildering bludgeoning of his father that they desperately needed to take action. And that's obviously the flip side of a lot of the discussion here and a note that Jerry makes later in the episode when it's, you know, if the four of them align, they'll kill their father, certainly, but they might kill themselves in the process. They might make it untenable for a Roy to continue to run this company. And I think that's the message the Stewie was sending. It's also possible that Stewie was just trying to fuck with his old friend and did not have a ton of intentionality and just enjoyed the concept of an illusion. It's like, why not both, right?

But here's my follow-up question to you. Would you rather have a ham salad or snake linguine? It sounds more appealing to you as a dish. Gosh. You know, I've never had the cuisine of the snake before. Are snakes edible? Is that a thing? Yeah. Some are.

Have you had snake before? I have not, but I hear it tastes like chicken. That's what I've been told. Okay. Our homework for this for next week's episode is to see if we can get some snake from DoorDash or Uber Eats or one of those companies. Who's sponsoring us this week? Whoever is sponsoring us, send us some not raw snake. I need the snake.

So no blue apron. No like raw snake that you have to prepare yourself. Do not send me a box of snakes, please, I beg of you. I think that the Trojan horse, it doesn't ultimately matter. It just is an incredible, like, dunk on Kendall. Amazing. Incredible stuff. So at the early stages of this meeting in Kendall's house, Lisa is still there.

She's trying to compel Kendall to give over the paper so they can start effectively their defense. And he's resistant and reluctant. And you get the sense that he's still trying to get all of his ducks in a row, his ducks being potentially his siblings so that he can execute his plan fully. Was that your read on it? Yeah. Like, is he resistant or is he just like or are his priorities completely out of whack? Because he's like, I got bigger stuff going.

And Lisa's like, look at me very closely. There's nothing bigger than the government coming, you know, like a subpoena, all this stuff. Like, focus on this. It drove me crazy that he was, she was trying to give him advice and he was in the midst of pulling a prank on Chauvin by writing fuck you on the papers and putting them in the envelope. Like, he was doing that while Lisa was trying to give him some very important information. So it just to me feels like he's not taking seriously. He's put this incredible team in place, but he's not taking seriously their advice.

That's frustrating. Is it possible that he doesn't have the goods? Yeah, sure. That these papers are not the real deal. Because obviously, the episode ends. We see Kendall is in this conference room with this baseball cap over his head. And he's strategizing and planning the next steps with Lisa. So eventually he does give, presumably gives those papers over.

But is it possible that the papers that Greg saved from the burning barbecue with Tom, all those episodes ago, are miscellaneous and heedless? That would be amazing if all he saved were the appendices of something. You know what I mean? It's in play, right? I mean, this is succession, you know? It's not as if grand plans are often pulled off. So, you know, you noted Shiv arrives at Kendall's, and we have this beautiful little

quiet exchange between them. A lot of strong face acting in this episode. Responsive acting is a big part of what this show does well. And I really enjoyed Shiv's greeting to Kendall. There he is, the little man who started this big war. I would argue that the big war started a long time ago, but it was an amusing entree. It was great. Didn't she also say, like, who sold you the thoroughbred or something like that?

Yeah. I mean, no line goes by without a brilliant bond mod attached to it. My favorite of the bonmots in the early conversation was between Shiven Kendall's as they were rehashing Kendall's decision to publicly denounce their father. And she describes it as a peacock fuck show. Yeah. Which I think should be our new podcast name, honestly. That's actually our spinoff network

is the Peacock Fuck Show which has nothing to do with NBC Universal. It is strictly a different sort of show. For legal reasons. NBC is not involved. We later learned in the episode after things kind of go sideways that it seems like Kendall only wants Shiv

because she's a woman and because there's an optic advantage. Do you think that that's true or do you think that it's also because she's accomplished bright, etc? I absolutely don't think that's the only reason. I do think it's a reason and it's something we talked about last week

this sort of like, you know, and she's, when he, when he hurls that at her, she's like, I know, you know what I mean? Like, you know, everyone's aware of the situation. Everyone's aware that one of the reasons why Jerry's CEO is for this obstacle reason. That being said, it just reminds, like Kendall's reaction to one by one, the dominoes of his siblings falling. Remind me so much of our discussion of Chavon's reaction to Lisa. Like, as soon as these kids are rejected, they're just lashing out with this, like,

honey bullshit, you know what I mean? And so it's like, you know, he's just immediately lashing. It's such a child move. You know what I mean? And it's like, it is, I mean, again, to try to compare it to something Logan would do, I think Logan might do something similar. You know, you might say like, well, fuck you then or fuck off or whatever. But it just seems like such a baby move from Kendall, the way he reacts there.

I mean, a reflection of a life spent getting everything you want all the time and never being happy, right? that's how they've been living for years and years. That's pretty tough. Very bleak. Very bleak, yeah. Eventually, Roman does arrive and we get the power trio. Roman from the jump is very reluctant to even indicate in the slightest bit that he would side with Kendall.

He is holding the line that he is there for his father throughout this entire conversation. It's very combative, I think, throughout this entire episode in an interesting way. You know, there is the sidebar conversation that he has with Shiv eventually when the group kind of breaks up and breaks off in the, payers in separate conversations or he indicates, you know, maybe, maybe before his phone call with Jerry. But I thought Roman's approach here was interesting in that it's clear that he just doesn't trust Kendall at all. Like he just, it feels like it's almost indicated that he could never align with Kendall based on the way that he conducted himself. What do you think of that?

Yeah. And I think we have to go back to that whole like you put me in a cage when we were kids dynamic. Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Interesting that like that storyline which popped up at the end of season one at the badge at Tom's bachelor party where he's like, don't you remember that you did this to me? You know, and Ken sort of, you know, everyone having sort of a different assessment of what that was about. And that episode ending, that, you know, rewatching that episode is so interesting because, you know, Connor talks to Kendall about it. And he's like, you know, it was dad's whole thing, like the weakest one has to leave, you know. And when Connor says that to Kendall, you want. Kendall to then go back to Roman and say, like, I'm so sorry that you and I were both cut up

and our dad's, like, sick power games. I'm so sorry about that. But that's not how that episode ends. It ends with Kendall, like, you know, shoulder checking Roman on the way out of the elevator for, you know, it almost gasses him up. It's so weird that that's his reaction. But I think that dynamic between the two of them, that like that cage thing that's looming over it. Like if anyone's going to come together, I think it is going to be Chavon and Ken. Like that

seems to be. But by the end of this episode, like how far away does that seem? I don't know. Yeah, I'm always forced projecting my own personal experiences onto everything I like, like a stupid watcher of all things. And, you know, like I have a younger brother who I probably was pretty hard on as a kid growing up and probably tortured. I'm sure I put him in some sort of cage environment in which he could not escape. Not to hurt him, but, you know, as I figured out how to be in charge. You make mistakes along the way. But my brother now is one of my favorite people on Earth.

And we have a very warm relationship. So it's kind of interesting to watch them continue to be unable to say how they really feel or work through anything between them. We have seen, you know, I'm reminded of like the hunting episode when you see that kind of conversation as they're walking on that dirt path. You feel like maybe they're on the verge of some kind of breakthrough. But they never really get there, those two. They're an interesting dynamic.

I mean, you know, we've talked before. and I talked to Bill a bit about like that, the scene that a lot of people talk about, which is Kendall and Chavon having that hug in season two. And that's a big moment of like, oh, my God, get it together, come together. For Roman, the closest I think is our jesties when he gets hit and Kendall immediately shouts like, no, and stands in like protection of his brother. And I'm like, where's that energy elsewhere? Like, you know, why can't we be bringing that more often?

I don't know how many brothers. I have a sister. I have an older sister. And, like, we have very, it's interesting. We have very different relationships with our parents where, like, I barely interact with them, but she's got kids. So they're the grandparents. So, like, she interacts with them a lot.

And we have, like, an interesting relationship, but we have a relationship where it's like, we don't talk about that. Our relationship with our parents is not something we talk about ever. It's, like, off the table. It's really interesting. That is interesting. I mean, I think that that's, obviously. obviously every family is different in the way that people interact, is defined by their experiences,

but it's interesting what is off limits and what is on limits, you know, in all families, especially in the Roy family, which is, I don't know, wrapped up in this psychological battle amongst each other. And, you know, we get this true battle after Connor has that phone call that you alluded to with Logan. He also shows up at Kendall's home. And then the four of them meet up in Sophie's room. And Kendall barely remembers the name of his own daughter and is dunked down by Roman for that. And then we get this just, I think, kind of extraordinary set piece. I mean, it's like a great showcase, I think for Kendall especially, who gets a chance to deliver these extraordinary mini monologues about his purpose and the grand death of media and their

company in the 21st century and their opportunity to leapfrog tech. And, you know, we should just hear that in full because it's kind of breathtaking and it's idiocy and dishonesty. But also, he seems to have kind of read the right texts, you know, he's read the right substacks. You know, he knows how to identify what the lingo is, which has always been like a skill of Kendall's, but he's always also never been able to deliver that information, anything but utterly transparently. Big picture, we're at the end of the long American century. Our company is a declining empire inside a declining empire. Amen, brother. People are killing themselves with guns or dope so fast that we're losing pace. Unsubscribe.

We're fat-fingered fucks and we can only live on cream. U.S. supremacy is waning. What I think is, within that context, we can become omninational and reposition. Because actually we are not tied culturally or physically. So we

are actually in a great position to leapfrog tech. Information is going to be more precious than water in the next hundred. Combine all our news operations, become the global news information hub. Amazon is 20 years old. Gates is an old geyser.

Detoxify our brand, and we can go supersonic. And it's so interesting because it devolves into this. He's got this like, here's what we should be monologue. But then also the moment where he tries to talk about what they knew and what they are accountable for and what they are responsible for. And Chavon's insistence that like she didn't know. Roman is protesting, but like a little more holly. but Chavons, here's the thing.

He says this thing to Chavon where he says, I'm the new you. You know, when he's talking about like the moral high ground, right? I'm the new you and she's like, sure, sure, and I'm the new you, whatever, what the fuck ever, right? But in this moment, obviously all of his, like, sanctimonious bullshit is bullshit. But for Chivon, it's so important to Chavon that this perception she has of herself of being the moral one and the good one and the one. one with a line. But in this moment,

we can all just see, you know, that even Connor, who loves Chavon, even Connor's just like, honey, come on. Like, honey returns.

Now it's levied at Chavon. It's like, please, we knew, we knew. And it's just so, that, that deniability is so important to her to cling to.

I think that's interesting. I think it also allows Chavon to, she was never inside. So if she's never inside, she has plausible deniability here. Yeah, but now she's inside. Do you know?

And what is that going to do to her? Well, that showdown is a pretty extraordinary set of circumstances. I will say, like, kind of reeled me in a little bit. And I was like, could they actually team up? Could they actually go for this? And then as soon as Kendall delivers his grand plan to be CEO, you can tell right away that once everybody's personal stake in this decision making has been, the bright light has been shown upon it. There's no chance. Game over.

way too much ego. There's way too much like Kendall is a fucking idiot going on here. And so it basically blows up in that spot. You did point out that Connor is the first one to kind of bail on it. But not before Kendall has to leave quickly to go see his kids. And of course

he's not going to hug his kids before they go to bed. He's going to hug his bro, Stewie, who is downstairs outside of a black car. And Stewie is with Sandy, but not the Sandy we've seen before. A new Sandy. Sandy named after Sandy. played by Hope Davis, daughter of Sandy.

I got a huge kick out of the idea of a media power broker naming his daughter after himself. Happens all the time. Happens all the time. Yeah, love that Hope Davis is here. Thrill to see her, big fan. And I think, you know, just as like when Holly Hunter shows up in season two, you're like, oh, a significant player has entered the game here in the shape of Hope Davis. So I've always been a fan of the Sandy Stewie stuff.

I've always thought it was really interesting. I love Stewie as a character. And so the fact that we're throwing someone like Hope Davis into that side of the plot, I hope we'll see a lot more of it. I hope so too. Obviously, she's one of the best character actors around. When ultimately Kendall returns, we see that Shiv has called Tom to get a check-in on this plan. We see that Roman has called Jerry and the immortal snake linguine line is delivered.

It's pretty clear at this point that this isn't all going to work out. But before they come to that decision, we see donuts. Well, first question, is Jerry telling the truth here? Do you think? Is she right? I think she is being both protectionist opportunistic and honest. I think she knows that it's not likely that they can survive a Kendall-led revolt. but also, you know, as we saw, one of my favorite moments of this episode was her taking a photo of her name on the news screen when it was announced that she is the new interim CEO for her daughters.

Very touching. It reminded me a little bit of when I took a photo of a question on Jeopardy in a podcast category about the rewatchables. I was watching, I mean, I watch Jeopardy every day. And the rewatchables was an answer to a question on Jeopardy. And I think it was about Major League, which is an episode that Bill and Rember Brown did together. And as it was happening, I was like, holy fucking shit. This is on Jeopardy. The Ringers podcast is on Jeopardy. Anyway, it happens to the best of us. You know, sometimes you see a name on TV that means something to you.

I'm going to tell you, if I ever, this is a secret. I've never vocalized this, this, this wish for myself. If something I ever touches becomes some kind of crosser puzzle clue in the New York Times, I'm framing that shit. Emergency pod to talk about the experience? I'm dipping it. a bronze and then I'm framing it forever. It's true. That's the thing is like we're all meaningless specks of dust on this vast galaxy until someone recognizes that you're alive and you're like,

I'm the most important person who's ever lived and I must memorialize this moment. That's how Jerry is feeling. Understandably so. And so she's trying to protect that little, that little photo on her cell phone and her, her long career, you know, really as the as the bag man for a horrible person. You know, this is her reward for protecting ATN and Waystar Royco and Logan Roy. So I think she was being honest, but also doing a lot to hold the line for herself. No, I mean, when she threatens Roman, I mean, that's a, it's a great moment. And even for the jury and Roman shippers out there, I think that's an incredible moment of like this alliance only goes so far. I have my own interest to protect here.

My question for you, because we're about to get to the donuts, right? Donuts come like immediately after. Who told Logan where they all are? How did he find out? This is a great question. We don't know. And it's like it was, the donuts come too quickly for it to have been Jerry. Because like Robin walks back in and they're there, right?

Maybe Connor told Logan where they were. Maybe that happened. I don't know. of all the siblings, I can see him being the one to have said something. Tom had been being very circumspect, like, you know,

lying to Logan about having been in touch with Chavon, taking the call very quiet, lazy steps out of the hotel room, so like that. Like, it does, I don't think it was Tom. So, you know. Have you identified a plot hole here?

I don't think it's a plot hole because it's really not a side of the realm of possibility, you know, for Logan to have either just figured this out. I can't get a hold of them. They must all be together. But Rava's home.

How would he ID that? Yeah. Why are they at Rava's place? I don't know. It's a very good question. I don't have an answer. I mean, I think that there is a case for Tom, although when Logan has his call at the end of the episode with Roman,

he's kind of still searching to confirm that Chavon is there and that she's on board and yada yada. So very difficult to know. Nevertheless, the donuts are this kind of metaphorical item, this delicate it vanishing pastry that is their relationship to their father. And, you know, it's profound. I mean, you made the point about the, the, um, the ice cream cookie with your sister. You know, we have these bonds and it's easy to get someone to feel warm towards you in the smallest ways, you know, tomorrow is, is my, my wife's birthday. And I don't, I got to find something to do that will indicate,

I know you in a way no one else knows you. Yeah. You know, that's the power. And I don't know these are donut kids necessarily, but the fact that dad sees them and is thinking of them is both a power move and a gesture of love. Is it a gesture of love? I thought it was a terrifying ICU moment.

I think there is a little bit of a hint of like, I can show you with pink frosting that it's not all bad here, that I have something to offer. Now, obviously, he has terrified them and they're literally negotiating whether or not these donuts are poisoned,

which was incredible. But it's just that very soft, subtle, kind of enticement that Logan is always throwing in his children. Interesting. It's so funny. It reminded me of, like, the power of him not even, he's not even the room. He can't get them on the phone. It's just one box of donuts and a note, a benign, but scary note from him, is enough for him to break this alliance. Like, it's an incredible, incredible move. And it reminded me of, in season one, when Kendall's trying to do the vote of no confidence. And he can't get in the room. And he has, he cannot topple Logan because Logan's in

the room and Logan's just running the room. And I'm like, here, here is Logan. He can't get in the room. But all he has to do is send a box of donuts. And his power is felt, Ken running through the streets on speakerphone making his case is not, could not get it done. So it's just, uh, again, speaks to Logan's like chokehold on all of them. It's wild. incredible just incredible scene incredible little series of metaphorical power throughout that that moment obviously it ultimately leads to the siblings dispersing and it's becoming clear that kendall's not going to get what he wants he's not going to get this moment of unity he completely lashes out as we said against all three of them insults them deeply um you know chavon more than anybody i would say he seems extremely angry with her um you know the girls count double now didn't you know line in particular jumped out to me is just really nasty and the way that Jeremy Strong delivered it. Just dripping with poison. And it's so interesting.

And like with Connor, Connor's so funny because he's like, you know, you last to that Connor, Connor just goes, no, hey, no. I'm like, how did you think this is going to go, Connor? What did you think? I enjoyed his line too there near the end where he's like, um. Can't this just be nice when they're mean to Roman? But his explanation for why he can't where he's like, I'm a national figure now. Yeah, yeah.

Really enjoyed that. So obviously the children break part and then they all go to the photo op and Kendall has left to his own devices with Lisa. We haven't talked about cousin Greg. Let's talk about cousin Greg quickly because once again, cousin Greg is the secret sauce of this show. And he is in his own little orbit in this episode because he has decided to, he's trying to figure out what to do legally because he's indicating to Tom early in the phone call that he has not given the papers and that he is quote unquote not necessarily a part of this. He keeps using the word necessarily, which I found fascinating. The writing for Greg is so perfect. After that initial, you aren't judicing, are you, Greg, conversation with Kendall.

He realizes he needs to find independent legal counsel. He meets with a friend who's in law school, which is in the first year of law school, which indicates just how way in over his head Greg is with all of this family and this whole mess. But I will say, though she's not very helpful, she does seem like an actual friend, which is more than maybe anyone else has in this show. So that is true. I mean, it won't be long before he has poisoned that relationship if he keeps hanging with the Roy's. But nevertheless, we get a, we get a waste our Royco lawyer coming to his apartment while he's having that meeting with a friend.

I love that. Yeah. I loved it. Oliver Nunes is this character. And he's just like, just the double talk when like, Greg's like, who buzzed you in? And he's like, we met at the hearings. I was like, he's just not answering questions. He's just trying to like snake linguine his way in the door.

It's just incredible stuff. Amazing lawyering throughout this episode. Yeah. Obviously, he realizes he shouldn't say anything to that lawyer Oliver Newton. And then later, he decides to call up Ewan, grandpa, who has been a thorn in the side of Logan throughout this entire series. And once again, Ewan has gifted many of the best lines of the episode. Our producer Steve's likely least favorite character, right? His most hated enemy.

Steve, quickly. Give us 10 seconds on why you and his bad. I just find him insufferable with his vocabulary. That's all I got to do. He just lods it over Greg with such disdain, knowing that he's a bit of adult. Well, it happens. I find it the meanest that any character has ever been to Greg. There may not be a more, hmm, vocabulary intensified exchange than the one when he describes Kendall's actions as his performance was histrionic and meritricious.

and the man's a self-regarding poppinjay. You know, the writers of the show are making fun of you. And obviously, he's well-read and brilliant and has a great vocabulary. But he is the self-regarding popin-jay. That's the whole point. He's just as much of an asshole. But he's also right. He is absolutely right.

And that's why I hate him more. Eventually, Ewan convinces Greg that he should use his lawyer, which is beneficial to him. And so we meet Pew, played by the great Peter Rieger. Very nice to see Peter Rieger in this show. He's got a lot going on with his. beard and his hair these days. What's your, what's your, like, what's your Peter Rieger role?

Well, you know, I heard Chris and Andy mentioned local hero, which is such a wonderful little movie that he made in the early 1980s, but, I mean, it's got to be, is it, I mean, Animal House is probably his most famous, right? Probably. I watched for the first time I had never seen it Crossing Delancey. I don't know if you've ever seen that. Oh, wonderful movie. Yeah.

But he's so great in that as it's just like pickle salesman. I love him in that movie. I just watched it very recently. And I was like, what a little Peter Riggard gem? And then he showed up in succession. And I was like, it's Rieger's season, baby. I'm all in. I would imagine the first time I saw him was in the mask, the Jim Carrey movie.

Yeah. Or he plays a detective, I think. The cop, yeah. Anyhow. So great to see Peter Rieger. He gets some incredible lines. He makes a Charles Babbage reference. He describes the double black eye.

Have you ever had a double black eye? A filter coffee with two espresso shots? I've had a, is it a red eye, which is just, one shot. I've never had a double black eye. Let's do, let's have a double black eye before next week's pod.

What do you say? So I have to find and source some snakes and double black eye. Should I use the double black eye to wash the snake down? Like is that? Yeah, just some soft homework,

you know, get on the Silk Road, get on the dark web, find some good stuff. I'm not having ham salad, though. That's where I draw up a line. At a certain point, it becomes clear

that Pew is trying to manipulate Greg. he's trying to use him to expose the structural contradictions of capitalism as reified in the architecture of corporate America. Aren't we all? Aren't we all? Yes. And once again, U.N. may be a grandfather to Greg, but he is also manipulating him to see a means to the end of capitalism, I guess.

That would be fascinating if he was a tool. Wouldn't it be great if season four of succession was just about the fall of American capitalism? That would be pretty funny. Sure. Yeah. Why not? Then what happens in season five? Season 5 we rebuild

We rebuilt from the ground up What else? Anything else about Greg This episode that you liked? What is it about Greg That he's always in the exact right place At the right time? The fact that he's standing there on the street The moment that Chivon gets smuggled into the apartment

And just happens to see it And he's done this time and time again On the show where he just happens to see Strolling in a park And see Sandy and Stewie talking to each other in season one And he's just like, you know, filing this stuff away, filing this stuff away. So I don't know. What if Greg told Logan that the kids were at the Red Ravas?

I wouldn't put it past anyone at this point. I just want to know who the snitch was. So that does it for this episode. It was a busy one but a contained one. What do you want to say to cue up your conversation with Alan Ruck here? America's First Pancake, which is one of my top favorite succession lines of all time. I don't know, I'm a huge Alan Ruck fan in general, and I think this is, I love that this is, that he's had this sort of like mid-late career moment after so much, you know, being an 80s icon and then like, you know, coming back with a vengeance for this. And the corner that Connor has carved for himself in this show where like, I think before he felt so much more like a satellite and he's still kind of a satellite, but a satellite that we always love coming back to.

So, yeah, let's hear from the great Alan Rook. What the fuck? Dad has sent some perfectly innocent, and I'm sure safe to eat donuts. He wants us all to have a nice tea party. Oh, beautiful. Yeah. I wouldn't. I mean, no, of course.

Yeah. You think he would send poisoned donuts to the house of his grandchildren? No, I'm like 98% sure those are not poisoned. I wanted to start by asking you, my favorite scenes in succession are when all the kids are together in the room. almost figuring out a way to work together and then it all falls apart. And Connor is such an interesting element in those scenes because he doesn't want to run the company. What's the thing that always makes him break in these scenes? It's just becoming clear that Ken is in way over his head.

I mean, and Connor is delusional in his own life. But I mean, I think it's just really clear that Ken has these. big, fat plans, and there's very little basis in reality. He's just, you know, he's spitball in the whole way, you know, and he's riding on adrenaline. And, you know, he's done this amazing thing, but he's got all these plans that he, you know, he wants to take over the country, but not hurt his reputation, you know, not damaged the company in any way and just squeeze the old man out and basically, you know, basically pin everything on Logan and then carry on, you know, I mean, they're the poutiest bunch of little assholes you've ever met, you know,

it's like you don't get your way. And it's just like it's an ongoing tantrum. It's just Kenny's ongoing tantrum, really, that he's, it's been, you know, going on for now, you know, three seasons. And so I just, I just think in this particular instance, it becomes, clear that like if we stay with Kendall, we're probably screwed. And with the old man, at least we stand a chance. You know, and I can see that obviously Kendall is behaving very erratically. But I'm wondering, do you agree with me that there could be a chance that these kids could make it if they could

just figure out how to work together? Yeah, but that you're, this is never going to happen. Right. Because the egos are too big and the, the, the resistance. is too strong and nobody wants to, nobody can listen. Nobody can actually sit down and listen to another and say, wait a minute, that's a really good idea. And then if I do this and add that to it, we actually have something. It's just everybody wants to be the boss. And, you know, there's, there's too many chefs.

There's not enough bottle washers. And, you know. Yeah. It's interesting looking at some of those scenes early on. Connor would often defer to Shiv. He was like, whatever Chavon wants, that's what I'll do. And I just thought that was kind of interesting. It's not necessarily where he's playing right now, but I was wondering if you had in your head some sort of invented.

He'd also, like, reached out to her directly. It seemed like there was some real connection between the two of them, at least in the first season. And I'm wondering if you had some sort of invented backstory as to why Chavon would be the sibling he would go to first. I just think he adores her, even though she's really, you know, I mean, she's like a cactus. My God. I think he loves all of them. and, you know, she's, she's our baby sister. And, I mean, she just happens to be like a man-eating tiger, but, you know, she's still,

she's still my little sister. And so I just, you know, maybe I've, I've clocked her at like, you know, nine and, and or 13 or something. And I always think of her that way. But, yeah, there was some bits in the first season where she even told me that she loved me, but basically that I should shut up. I think there's something along those lines. That's a good response to Connor, I think.

I love you, shut up, right? Yeah, well, probably all of them. I usually don't get the I love you. It's just must be shut up. You're an idiot attached, you know. I wanted to ask you about the politics of it all this season because it's so interesting that this is the first season we'll be watching not directly through the lens of Trump as an audience, right?

But it is the season that is most engaged in the political. question, even though this is something that Connor has been after since season two, it comes much more to the forefront in the season. And so I'm just wondering what you think about the show leaning on into the political question in season three. Well, these worlds are so intertwined now, and maybe they always have been, but big media money and politicians, you know, swim in the same water. And the politicians really, they can't get anywhere without those big dollars.

And the biggest dollars seem to come from media companies, oil, you know, wherever. But big banking, whomever is controlling the fortunes. So we see some of that. We see how Logan operates and see how he picks and chooses those people that he's decided or worthy for whatever. reason. And most of us, I think in this country, I know there's people that still don't believe it, but I think most of us in this country know that that's how it works. I mean, when you think of the millions of dollars that it takes to run for president or Senate or any of these offices,

it's really mind-boggling, you know, and the money's got to come from somewhere, and those people are always going to have conditions for whatever their donations are. So, Yeah, and I mean, I think someone who's like Connor, a son of a billionaire and, you know, to the manorborn and all this sort of stuff, is an interesting figure in any political race. Do you have any specific models that you were looking at in terms of almost like vanity candidacies that we've seen from some of our richer citizens? Well, yeah, I mean, actually, I mean, the biggest one that we just lived through for four years, I mean, I mean, it's a fairly good model of if you have an enormous pile of wealth and you're willing to basically court the votes of a bunch of frightened people by blaming a lot of other people for these working class woes, apparently you can get quite far. Well, I'm curious, something that you said in a recent interview that I thought was so interesting about Connor is this idea that he's never felt needed in his. life, and that's something that he's sort of fed up with. I'm wondering beyond the presidency

question, is that a part of his attraction to Willa, this desire to feel needed and dependent on by someone? Well, yeah, I mean, and certainly Connor is in love with Willa, and Willa's, she hasn't quite made up her mind yet as to what this is. I mean, she's still pretty much thinking of it as a business arrangement, but maybe, maybe even against her better judgment, she's developing some feelings for Connor, because he's really very sweet to her. He's, you know, and sometimes, you know, he makes mistakes like we all do. And sometimes he's a little more worried about the money than her feelings. But, you know, I think generally he comes around and he comes back to her and wants to make her happy.

So, you know, I think that would make Connor very, very happy if she decided or she just told him that, you know, I just don't want this to be a business arrangement anymore. I, you know, I just want to be your partner. I really think that Connor would love to have a kid. So even monsters want to have, even monsters want to have babies. What kind of dad do you think Connor would be? He is very sweet in his way, you know? Well, you have to worry for that kid. But I mean, you know, I mean, my father was Logan Roy, so it's a miracle that I'm still on the planet.

Something that I was noticing as I was rewatching episode two was in some of these group scenarios, oftentimes, especially when Mark Millott is directing, the cameras are swinging around a lot, catching, just catching expressions. Have you ever, and I'm always... I'm always dazzled by the fact that the camera happened to move with the exact right moment to catch a certain expression here or there. And I'm wondering, have you ever been caught off guard by a reaction of yours that made it onto, you know, onto film, into the episode? Like, oh, I didn't know the camera was on me in that moment. Yeah, but I'm usually, it's never usually a bad thing.

It's usually, it's happy because, I mean, something that we learned early on was that you just have to stay in it. I mean, even if you think that the cameras are going to be on Logan and Kendall, you don't know. Because like you say, Mark Milot, he just keeps those cameras moving around. And so the deal is basically, once you start the scene, you're in the scene. Even if you think you're off camera, don't. Don't relax. Yeah. No, no, no.

And I've gotten a chance to talk to some of your co-stars about their various acting. styles and it's so interesting to me because, you know, Kieran is such like a live wire improvisational kind of actor and Jeremy is such like a very serious interior kind of actor and it's interesting to me to think about all those different styles sort of bumping up against each other in any given scene. So I'm wondering like how would you describe your own acting style and how do you feel like that works in the larger cocktail of all these great performers in this cast? I do whatever is required.

So if I had some scene where it was some big emotional scene or it was some big dramatic reveal or something that, you know, I would probably go spend time by myself and not, you know, crack jokes with the other people between takes. I'd probably isolate myself and try to get in touch with whatever it was I need to get in touch with. There's other scenes where I happily go out to the parking lot and smoke cigarettes with the teamsters and tell jokes, you know. It just depends where you need to be, right?

And I also think when you do a drama, even though there's a lot of laughs in our show, when you do a drama, whatever is going on in your world, if somebody's like somebody's, for whatever reason, irritating you, you just put that right into the scene. It's just you show up in a state of irritation, you know, and you just let that play out however it does. what's a drag is if you're doing a sitcom and maybe you have a sitcom star that is one of those people that they can only be comfortable if everybody else is off base is off balance. It's not fun because at the end of the day you're supposed to be funny, right?

You know, and so you can't really put all that stuff into a sitcom. But in a show like this, you know, like acting styles colliding or people maybe being a little bristly with each other, it's great. It just all adds up. It all adds to the stew. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of bristles in this family, so I imagine it can, you know, the bristles can only help sometimes, you know. Yeah, and they're, you know, they're hard to get rid of. They're around. You've also described this season as gloves off, which I think is very interesting because I never really thought of previous seasons as gloves on.

So I'm wondering if you can, you know, without getting specific or spoilery, if you can expound on that at all in terms of, you know, what you feel, what feels a special. especially going for it this season? I would say that nobody is safe. Nobody. Nobody's position is secure. No matter who they might be, no matter how smart they might be, or what angle they think they have at any particular moment,

everybody is, they kind of got it on the line. And I think that's different from the first two seasons where it definitely seemed like, oh, Logan is in power. is in complete control. He has this annoyance to deal with. But I think as we move on,

it's like it all gets very questionable. In terms of everything feeling more dangerous or more unstable, if you want to put it that way, how long does that feel sustainable? Like, how long do you want succession to run? How many more seasons of this Roya battle do you think you have in you, you know?

I know we're going to do season four. that's already been ordered. If it ends in four, then it ends in four. I don't know. I don't know. If we did five, I'd be happy with that. I don't know how much longer it could go beyond that. Because it's, you know, it feels like it's getting ready to blow, doesn't it?

That's how I feel. I'm like five and out. Like, that's how I feel about the show. I think you're probably right. Yeah. I think that would be very comfortable. And it's really up to Jesse, you know, how if he figures he could write this thing for the seven, eight years, which I don't think so.

But if he felt he could do that without losing any of the integrity or any of the beauty of it, then I would go wherever he said to go, you know. Yeah, I believe him. I wanted to ask you really quickly, in a recent interview, you mentioned the SEA, the Society for Creative Anachronisms. Were you a member of the SEA? No, but I used There was a big building at the University of Illinois.

It was an armory. It was actually like where the ROTC, you know, did their marches and stuff. But there was like a little theater attached there where we did little like student productions and so forth. And so I would show up for one of those things, you know, or I would just cut through the armory on a rainy day. And I would see these people out there,

these guys with bamboo swords and, you know, helmets made out of whatever bamboo. And they would be whacking the hell out of, of each other, you know, and the ladies would be talking and, you know, with the conical hats, with the streamers and the high, the high-wasted, you know, sort of like early Renaissance dresses, whatever. And they'd try to be speaking in archaic language and, you know, making whatever the dishes were that people made back then, you know, gruel, I don't know, whatever it was. And I just thought that that was something that Connor would have fallen right into.

Yeah, it was right up his salad. I love that for him. All right, thank you so much for the chat. I appreciate it. Thank you to our producer Steve Allman for his work on this episode. Thank you, of course, to Alan Ruck. Joanna and I will be back next week to talk about the third episode of Succession Season 3 and we'll be enjoying a little snake when we do so.

See you then.