The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 3 Episode 3 With Sarah Snook

Episode Date: November 3, 2021

Sean and Joanna rejoin to talk about the third episode of ‘Succession’ Season 3. They discuss the major tactical errors by Kendal, Tom’s attempt at self-sacrifice, and much more. Later Joanna talks to actor Sarah Snook about Siobhan’s major moves in this episode. Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Joanna Robinson Guest: Sarah Snook Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dave Chang is an avid student and fan of sports, music, art, film, and of course, food. With a rotating cast of guests, they have conversations that cover everything from the creative process to his guest's guiltiest pleasures. Followed the Dave Chang Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you.

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of journalists right here on the Ringer prestige podcast feed. I'm Endangered Journalist and Ringer senior staff writer, Jordan Robinson. Joining me today is another fellow endangered journalist and head of content at The Ringer. It's Sean Fennessee. Hello, Sean. How are you? Hello, it is I, the leggy princeling of the Ringer podcast network. I'm very excited to be here.

We gather together like the endangered spotted owls here at the end times for journalism. But I always appreciate a gala in our honor. We are here, of course, to talk about Succession, Season 3, Episode 3, written by Ted Cohen and Georgia Pritchett, directed by Kathy Yan. This is an episode that I'm really excited for us to talk about. And at the end of all of that, after we talk through it, talk about our plans to eat snake meat together, we are joined by Shivroy herself. Sarah Snook will be here at the end to talk about. Some spitting techniques for Chauvin Roy in this episode, among other things. So stay tuned for our chat with Arisnuk. A great, great shiv moment, I think, this week. Before we get into everything, all of it, I want to sort of zoom back a little bit, Sean, and talk to you first about this season as a whole. When you asked me, like when I greedily watched ahead seven episodes and you asked me sort of like what my vibe was for the season, the phrase that I guess,

came up with and I don't know why is cocaine hangover. And then I was listening to Chris and Ryan talked about it a little bit on the watch and they said they were feeling like a little bit of claustrophobia. Like they're enjoying it. I'm enjoying it. But there's like a little bit of like a cocaine blues like tense feeling going on this season. Are you feeling any of that? How is all of this sitting with you? I've been enjoying it generally. We're sort of at the one third mark of the season and it feels like it's been a little bit set piece free. It's been a little bit big tick it big stage free. We got into the wider world a little bit in the third episode here, which I quite enjoyed,

but it does feel like the show is on a little bit of a treadmill. Now, the design of this show is very particular and meticulous, so I feel like there is a lot of intention behind that decision. And we are going to meet a couple of key players in future episodes. And we're excited to see Adrian Brody. We're excited to see Alexander Scarsguard. Hopefully we'll see more of Hope Davis. a handful of people we know have been added to the cast this year.

These first three seem to be about squaring the family and where the family stands with each other and against one another. And so this felt essentially like the culmination of round one. You know, the Kendall pulled this big move at the end of season two. Season three has thus far been about, okay, what side are you on? And ultimately what we find is that it's Kendall versus the world, which is kind of what he wanted, I think, at the end of the day. I think he needs to feel like he is,

alone on an island despite being such a lonely boy. I think that's interesting. And I think one thing we of course, and we've talked about it before, but something we have, of course, have to keep in mind is that this is a season not only shot during COVID, but written. I believe, you know, they had planned to start it to sort of right before COVID hit. I believe it was written, you know, with the idea of production restrictions in mind. And I did something kind of unhinged.

And I watched an entire, not that. Hush. I watched an entire, you look so concerned. I'm excited. I can't wait to hear what you're going to say. It's like, what did you do? Well, I watched an entire hour plus conversation with the two series DPs, Pat Capone and Chris Knorr. And there's a third one who does like a little bit of work. But basically, between the two of these guys, they shoot every episode. And we've talked before about Mark Milod is a freaking director. This was a guest director. So I wanted to pay some attention to like how it, felt different. And I was looking into the DPs and I realized that there are really only two that they use. And so those two folks are very, though they're aping sort of what happened in the premiere, obviously, throughout. They're very responsible for the visual style. And they were talking about COVID and their concerns about COVID and how all that was going to work because something that's true about succession, as we've all noted, is like there is this almost documentary

very, like, veritas sort of style that they used, right? That they, the camera's constantly moving. These two DPs talked about how they, they don't like the actors to tell them where they're going to go. Like, there's a story they like to tell about an actor was giving them a warning that they were going under a desk. And they're like, don't tell us you're going under the desk. We want to chase you under the desk.

Our camera just wants to find you where you're going. They light every set. They light the whole room so that the actors can go anywhere and that they will look good or at least functional, like, wherever they go in the room, which is very different from how most, you know, film and television works. And I thought all of that was interesting, and they were concerned about that freedom of movement to run around in the room after the actors and stuff like that.

For the actors not to be blocked out, all of that sort of stuff, they were worried about that in COVID. The reason I call that unhinged is that didn't understand, like, 45% of what they were saying because it was about, like, lenses that I don't understand, but I watched the whole thing anyway. Anyway, I just wonder if you any other thoughts on it. that. It raises something interesting, right? You mentioned that Kathy Ann is the director of this episode. She, of course, is the director of the film Birds of Prey and the Fantabulous Emancipation

of Harley Quinn. She knows from set pieces. She knows from scale at this point in her career. And this episode was interesting because while it was certainly less claustrophobic than the first two, the show is typically defined by people talking in rooms. But this had that journalism conference that you cited in your intro. This had Shiv's big speech at the town hall. This had Kendall kind of pacing and stalking his way into the office. This had a couple of really interesting camera moves, one of which he created a gift for of Shiv entering Kendall's office to spit into that book of his.

You know, this was a slightly more cinematic episode than we had seen previously. Okay, so that's the other thing that I wanted to say. So Pat and Chris, our poor beleaguered DPs on this show, they're told that they are constantly having to be talked down from using things that are too cinematic. Cinema is a word that they don't like to use. on the set. But they implied that if there's a guest director, so like not Mark Milad or like

someone who directs frequently, they can get away with a little bit more cinema. And so if you see a lot, a bit more cinema, they weren't talking about this episode specifically. But if you see a bit, I was, I was guessing, you see a bit more cinema in this episode or a bit more trickery with glass. You see a lot of work with like the reflection on the glass that's that Chavon shot where she looks like she's walking out over the skyline and into Kendall's office sort of stuff. I think that's Pat Capone getting to do some of the things he doesn't get to do with Mark Milad. I thought it was a good thing for the show. I thought the show can use a little bit of, I don't know, dramatic visual flair from time to time.

We've already talked in the first couple of episodes of this show that we're doing together about, you know, the zoom in and that kind of frantic camera moving around rooms, trying to ID people's faces and capture quiet little stolen moments from our characters. But I do think a little bit of scale as the story gets bigger. and bigger is more than appropriate here. So what do you think? Yeah, no, I completely agree. And this is sort of the last main visual thing I want to say, which is I think if you rewatch this episode, you'll notice, I mean, you probably already notice the first time, but if folks didn't notice and want to rewatch, so much use of skyline and so much use of the view. Like, we know that they've been up high in offices. They used to film in my old building, World Trade Center. Now they film at 28 Liberty, but they've been up in these, like, high-rise office.

buildings. Kendall lives in the clouds. They all live high up. But you know that one shot, there's this one shot where like Kendall's talking to Greg on the phone about going into the office and he goes into the bathroom. And it's such a weird moment because the camera follows him into the bathroom. It doesn't really follow him because he's going to the bathroom. It just follows him in so you can see that even in his bathroom, he has this like incredible view of the city. So I just felt like there was a lot of use of these people up in there, you know, these gods up in the above everyone else. I thought it was really interesting. So there we go. So I want to talk to you about the main theme that I feel like I've identified for this episode. And this was inspired actually by

the really great conversation that Chrissy Nandy had on the watch. They were asking about like the stakes. They were trying to track the stakes of this. What is going to set someone off? These people are mean to each other all the time. What is going to be the thing that is going to, you know, prompt you to collapse in the back room of the Sophia Wovey show and what is not. You know, what is going to be the thing? And I feel like the distinction here is public wounds versus private wounds. There's this moment when Comfrey is talking to Gendell before he's thinking about going on the show. And he's like, she's telling him about the letter.

And he's like, well, it's private. She's like, yeah, but it's not sort of like a classic. She's like, this is out there. This letter that your sister has written is out there. Similarly, Kendall embarrasses Chavon at her town hall meeting that is being, we found out, like, beamed around the world globally and did this thing that just felt so toxicly awful to make her look like a fool. And so they can say whatever they want to say in the privacy of the poison donut tea party room. But to bring it into the streets is not something that this family often does.

What do you think about that distinction? I think you're right on. I'm glad you pointed this out because it raises two separate concepts that I want to talk to you about. One, I'm not going to spoil the show Squid Game, but I just finished Squid Game last night. How are you feeling? And I feel wonderful. I mean, I'm a deeply cynical person, and I found that to be a cynical piece of entertainment. Nevertheless, I really enjoyed it.

And obviously, I don't think I'm spoiling anything to point out that one of the key takeaways from that series is that the rich are bored. and that money ultimately comes to mean nothing to them. And the Roy's are bored. You know, they're bored with their own money. They're fascinated by their power and their perception, and they're desperately trying to stay in control of that. It's not their wealth that is of utmost importance to them. They don't want to go bankrupt,

but it's not dollars and cents here. It's ultimately, what am I in control of, and what is everyone saying about me? And the best way to control that is two ways. One, the press, and I think you're right, you've identified the media as a key controller in this episode and in this story. And secondarily, there's something bigger that I kind of want to talk to you about. And maybe this is a little early in our conversation,

but I'm feeling like a lot of the culture that I care about. A lot of the TV shows, a lot of the movies, seems to be infected by the same disease I have, which is that it's all about the internet and social media now. It is about, it is not just in social media. It's not just reflecting some of the experiences. literally about them. There was a game in this episode called Good Tweet, Bad Tweet. My career has been Good Tweet, Bad Tweet for five or six years now. And we, you and I, we live online. This is,

this is our work. And I feel like as recently as five years ago, I did not feel like every show was sort of driven by the stakes of the day-to-day online. And the idea that the Roy's, these incredibly powerful people, I thought about this a lot. And I'm, I certainly don't want to repel down a Dave Chappelle hole. But, One of my big takeaways from the most recent Dave Chappelle controversy, all opinions about it aside, is why is Dave Chappelle so online? You know, shouldn't he be off doing something more with his time,

like more meaningful with his time? And the sense that everyone in the world, the powerful, no matter what side of the aisle you're on, no matter, you know, like how old you are, everyone's just so fucking online. And part of it is COVID, you know, and part of it is this idea that we're trapped. And part of it is the addictive nature of apps

social media platforms, some of the work that we do, et cetera. But I'm blown away by the construction of Kendall, but even Roman and Shiv and all the other figures being so nervous about getting taken down by something. It's a fascinating aspect of our culture right now, and I feel like it's happening most prominently inside of succession. What do you think about that? That's so interesting.

I think that for Kendall, I think it feels like a different flavor. That's a neediness and approval flavor, right? That I don't quite think Roman and Shiv have the same disease. Or if they do, they have like a lighter case. But like I think that it's, what I think it is is that fear of, and I don't even actually really like this phrase, but cancel culture, that has infected the ranks of Hollywood or filmmaking and TV making in general. this idea that I think, I mean, we don't have time to get into my very new ones. It's a whole different pod. Thoughts on cancel culture and whether or not it actually exists if Mel Gibson is getting nominated for Oscars.

But like, I think that the fear of it is definitely real. And I think you can feel that fear infecting all of this. And I think what's interesting about the use of media in this, this is a fascinating media episode. Like really, truly fascinating. because above and beyond the social media aspect, which is something I actually really want to think a little bit more about it. I get fatigued watching the echo chamber of four social media by social media kind of stuff. Like, I have, like, nothing against you as like a person,

but I think casting her as a sort of very thinly veiled version of herself felt like one of the worst cases of stunt casting that the show has done. I think. She was great. Fine in the role. And like, she's a fan of the show, so she wanted to do it. Very Ed Shearant of her,

like, fine, whatever. But, like, we've talked before about how we like that this feels, like there isn't a real world, direct real world analog for all these characters. And it keeps it in this different realm. And so to cast her as someone

that is so much like her and what she does, I thought was not my favorite move. It was slightly distracting in a way that the show is usually not. It usually veils or utterly changes, or even we could point to Dasha from Red Scare being cast this season in a completely almost like subverting a persona. Like that almost seems to be like a commentary on her status in the world versus Zewa, who is basically,

like you said, just kind of doing herself under a different name. In an interview, Zui said that basically the role that she auditioned for was basically a Samantha B character. And they changed the Samantha B character to be more like her, which is like, is smart in a way. But again, it just like pulls it into our real world in a way that I kind of want to escape our real world into this land of rich bullshit that I am not directly connected to. But in terms of the media, I just wanted to like go through some of the things because especially the opener, which even though it definitely wasn't a vanity fair profile, because it was like a tighter turnaround than a vanity fair profile, felt very vanity fair profile. And I just wanted to flag for a couple people listening in case you don't know. when Kendall's talking about all this stuff at the beginning,

and then he's like, that's on background. I just want to make sure that people listening know what on background means, which is like you're not citing this source. Like, they're just saying the filthiest things that they wouldn't say on their record. And oftentimes, when that goes into print finally, and you saw this 24-7 with the Trump administration, it's like a source close to Ivanka and Jared. It would just be Ivanka.

Do you know what I mean? Like feeding that stuff. to journalists. I just thought that that was a really well-tuned-in moment of all of that. Did you have to do any thoughts about that aspect

of the media representation? Yeah, I mean, it's just strictly a piece of information that can be cited a piece without direct named attribution. So, but oftentimes,

you're right, that that source is almost certainly a person as close to the source of information as you can possibly get. And Kendall knows, that in order to drive his narrative,

he's going to have to sprinkle breadcrumbs for all the reporters he wants writing favorably about him. And that's just, that's the thing here is that the episode starts out as this kind of, Kendall believes he's in this protective bubble of woke security, you know? And he doesn't understand the game he's playing. He has gotten lost in his own sauce here. And he thinks just that by slightly manipulating

in New York Times-Styles reporter, he's going to be able to continue to take shots at his final. father not realizing, you know, he's in the lion's den. He's going to get bit. And I like that Logan's strategy this whole episode is to push everyone else, Roman, via this puff he's interview, Chavon, via this letter, this press release essentially, into public statements. Logan himself says nothing. Would never. Hides, hides back, you know. And like Kendall kind of broke the rule in the first place by holding that press conference and taking his dad down at the end of last season,

broke whatever unspoken rule there is. But I just think it's so interesting that, you know, you've got, also you've got the Michelle Lander interview. And this is a media conglomerate. Like, so I think the show has dealt with the media before, but never quite like this, the ways, the games that people play with and around the media, you know, all, Roman gets to veto all of his questions that the ASEM business journalist is going to ask him. all this sort of stuff. It's all sort of bullshit journalism in order to try to get their own narrative out there.

I think it's fascinating. I think that the Logan point is particularly salient because the handful of times when we have seen him in public settings, for example, when he testified before Congress, he basically no comment at his way and passed the ball to his son who he who spoke eloquently and aggressively at Congress. and most of the time, Logan subscribes to the never tweet philosophy, you know, the sort of like, if you don't get me on the record saying, it never was said, you know,

you won't find anything in my emails that makes you unproud of me or whatever it was that he shared with Chavon. He has a way, even the conversation with Michelle Ann that he has in the conference room, he's saying, I don't want you to do anything extra for me.

He's saying that out loud, almost in like, it's almost as if he's being recorded in his own office, expecting to be captured somehow by not really saying anything terribly aggressive. Now, obviously, at a certain point in that conversation, he pivots and realizes he needs to twist the knife to get what he wants. But there is a kind of like protectionist approach that he takes to all interactions.

He has a way with these really soft aphorisms for what's really going on. And I don't know, it's like a, it's a skill developed over time, I'm sure, when you have that much power for decades. It's so interesting because all of his kids have no idea how to handle themselves. I mean, even Roman kind of taking, like telling us, like, in order to tell us a meaningful story about his relationship with his father, he has to lie. And he may be caught in that lie at some point, you know, it's just, it's just one more bit of exposure that he has provided himself. And Logan never seems to be exposed in this way. But is pressuring, grinding the gears, pressuring his kids to do this. You know what you mean? My least favorite Logan moment,

of the various least favorite Logan moments in this episode, is he's alone with Chavon before he says the word Hullabaloo, the insane descriptor Hullabaloo. But he says, like, you know, I ask myself, does Chivvon even like me? It's just the most manipulative, like, bullshit things he says to his daughter. But I want to talk about,

I want to talk about this thing that Kendall does. And here's where I will admit, some, like, willful blenders that I put up the first couple times I watched this episode. I was like not paying enough attention to details because I was trying to convince myself that there might be some reality in which Kendall didn't do this thing that he does to Chavon because I find it so repulsive. Not just because it's an act of aggression against his sister, but because of what a cheap, like, ploy it is around this very serious issue, this use of the Nirvana song here. And so for a couple times through, I was like, maybe he didn't do it. Maybe Logan did it to frame Kendall and because he wanted to divide Chavon and Kendall or something like that.

And then I noticed the speaker boxes in Kendall's office. And then I noticed that he sends his bodyman Remy out on an errand. And so I'm like, okay, Kendall definitely did it. And I just have to think that I didn't want to believe he did it because it makes me really regret rooting for him ever. Do you have these same moral quantities? Are you just smartly never rooting for anyone really on this show? I'm definitely never rooting for anyone. I do have a kind of, I've mentioned before,

like I do have a kind of sad sympathy for Kendall because of Jeremy Strong is such a compelling performer. It's also interesting that they never actually show Kendall. It's not as if he's Lloyd Dobler holding the boombox over his head, blasting, Raim. He's got someone doing this for him so that he also can have his hands clean, so to speak. I also just think he's just a little bit of a fool. know, like, I think he might even think, obviously, Rape Me is a very intense song. It's not really a song about rape.

It's obviously using the language of rape, but it's like about Nirvana and this cadre of artists in the 1990s being kind of like used by the culture and feeling like it's not, what made Nirvana successful was not people trying to better understand what Kirk Cobain was trying to write, but by like commoditizing. And Kendall, buffoon that he is, I think sees himself kind of in league at this point, with a Kurt Cobain type who's like, I'm a true artist and I will use a true artist's point of view to do this. Now, obviously, what Shiv is doing is very much addressing the sexual assaults

that took place over many years on the cruise line. Kind of. Yeah. Kind of, yes. We get it. We get it. She's at least being used as a wedge there. Yeah.

So it has a kind of double meaning there. But I would, I mean, would you put it past Kendall to, like, to not think that he is somehow consonant with Kurt Cobain's struggles as an artist and somebody who's just trying to get his truth out there in a. clean way. Absolutely. I think it's a very generous reading, but I absolutely think like that that is something Kendall might think. But I feel like he just Googled what song says the word rape often enough that will like be disturbing and distracting at this event. But I like your reading. I think there's obviously, you know, Kurt Cobain was very clear and passionate about

violence against women and was outspoken about that issue. And he talked about, rate me as a lyric and why he wrote that song with the meeting of that song could be. But it's fascinating that like someone like Kendall aligning himself with cultures over and over again, we see him in that first meeting with Walter and the acquisition attempt. We see him rapping along to Beastie Boys. We see him writing his own raps and performing. Like he's a person who is always trying to align himself with a kind of youth culture, a kind of like a late Gen X, damn the man

kind of cynical but also we can fix it kind of culture and we talked about it last episode when he gave his big speech and Sophie's bedroom and how

he doesn't really understand who he is he doesn't really understand that he's the bad guy he doesn't understand that he's not just the child of privilege but that he's done terrible things

and he's not willing to accept that about himself and so he's kind of going deeper and deeper and deeper into his own delusion until he finds himself on the floor in that control room at the end of the episode, which is fascinating.

But I don't know that I necessarily like, I don't really feel for anybody on this show. And that includes even like actors I really like, Jay Smith Cameron, like, I don't really feel for Jerry. You know, Jerry made her own bed. She'd spent 30 years acting as legal counsel for Logan Roy. What the fuck do you expect is going to happen? You make an excellent point. And I think to back up the tiny moment that I lost my mind during, to back up your point is when Kendall's being smuggled up through the freight elevator. any fist bumps, one of the guys outside the freight elevator,

is to be like, hey, you and me, buddy, gets the world. How about the look on that guy's face when he walks away, too? He's like, are you kidding me, man? Incredible. Incredible stuff. Chivon of it all is really interesting because, like, you know, I don't want to do that thing where I spoil our own interview, but, like, Sarah Snook says, you know,

her main thing, and she said it before in other interviews is, like, that she sees the season as, like, Chavon's identity crisis. And I was trying to figure out why they brought, Nate, because like Chavon figure out where her line is. Chavon doing to Kendall via this letter, this press release, the very thing she got mad at her dad doing in season one when he leaked to the press. And you'll remember, to go back to the public and private thing, that article that Logan

planted in the press about Kendall and his drug use is what set Kendall off the wagon in the first place down into like the desert drug. Bender in season one. So there really is something about this like public attack that he cannot handle. But Chavon is the one in that episode, Osterlitz, I think it is, right? They're having the family therapy. And she is the one who calls out her dad for doing that. She's like, did you plant that story about Kendall?

That was fucked up. I can't believe you do that. You know what I mean? And then she does this thing, which is not even planting a story, but like signing her name to it. where is Chavon's line? How far has she come from the person that she wanted to be? Did she ever have that line in the first place? There was that just a persona.

I have to think that's why Nate's in this episode, because otherwise he's really out of place here. But I have to think he's there to remind her of her old job and like what she was doing there. I don't know. What do you think about this Chavon identity stuff and maybe have a different take on, on good old Nate showing up.

I think you're right that she did, she did used to at least believe that she had a line. I think the ultimate insult being she has decided to go inside the company. She's taken on this role. And in her first public act, her brother has embarrassed her. And that cannot be forgiven. And so she has to hit back.

And so she is crossing that line that she used to think she would never cross. The Nate part, I don't know. I actually had a little bit of a hard time myself. I'm not totally sure why they called back. Maybe it was to the life. that she once had or the life she could have had if she had stayed in the world of politics and realizing that she has forged forward into this illicit world of working for Waystar Royco. But, you know, I thought it was kind of more amusing to watch Nate and Kendall interact to me,

you know, the idea of like they were kind of buddies, right? Yeah, there were battles. Yeah. And that's also like his before times too. You know, there's something about Kendall's past burbling up there as well that's interesting to me. As you know, I've become, like, obsessed with tracking, matching outfits on the show. And I do think it's interesting that Nate and Chauvin are both wearing blue velvet in that scene, which is an unusual. It's an unusual fabric.

David Lynch reference, maybe? I love, I love that for us. The desecration of the American suburban lifestyle by way of ATN. The rot underneath the picket fence. Love that. Love it for us. And then I want to talk to you about Roman. And here's something I find, like, actually really touching in all of this.

This isn't like a Roman-centric episode. But something I find that. really touching is like the few times we have with him, he talks about the fact that he doesn't want to sign this letter. And, you know, he says, like, you know, he taught me how to aim my pee pee in the bowl or whatever, like, in the toilet, like, that whether literal or not, like, Kendall did things to raise him. And Connor did things to raise him by taking him on this fishing trip. And he doesn't have a positive memory to spare about his father. And I just thought that that was really interesting. It feels like it goes back to my read on him bringing.

those treats to Kendall last week that like maybe Roman above all of them has the best sense of family. I don't know. What do you, what do you think? I think in a perverse way, he's the most innocent of the four of them. You know, he's obviously a brat and rude and childish, but he's the youngest and the most affected, I would say, by the circumstances. He gets very upset when his dad gets sick. You know, he is clearly constantly evaluating his relationship to older people who are in charge and authority. And his relationship with Jerry is kind of springloaded with all of this anxiety mommy complex stuff. And so I, I, and whether or not, like, he has the truest moral compass, that's probably stretching it a little bit. Yeah. That's too far. I agree. But I think that he

didn't, Kendall didn't do something to him like what he did to shit. And so he's kind of like, this just feels too far. You know, I know you feel embarrassed, but like, relax. This is what it's like in this world. It's kill or be killed. You have to accept that. And if you don't, you might do something that might be considered unforgivable. Now, whether or not this is unforgivable from Kendall's perspective, we shall see, though, I mean, by the end of the episode, it sure seems like he's taken a death blow.

Yes, but it ends on a slight, you know, if you think of these as like two battles, right? like, you know, that Chavon loses the battle, the battle of the town hall. And Kendall loses the battle of the press release. Like, it ends with a raid on Waystar, which is what he wanted. You know what he mean, which is what Kendall wanted. So, you know, he's cowering in the control room. A real low moment for our guy here. But also like a wry smile, you know, like not unlike the smile that Logan had after Kendall killed him.

it's like, you know, I certainly, I've been in situations, let's say I lose a movie draft, for example, on the Big Picture podcast, you know, I might go out smiling. I might go, but in my heart of hearts, I'm in pain. I'm sad. I'm like, God, I've screwed it up once again. But I have, you got to put on a face. You got to, you got to be amused by your own downfall. And maybe Kendall has a little bit of that, although obviously we got, we got six, seven more episodes to go here. So there's, people can bounce back from, from where they were. Roman is really interesting, though, because whether or not they're trying to show us that Roman has a or just that Roman is actually a little, just more battle trained for some of this stuff is an

interesting question with regards to Chavon. He does have experience that she doesn't have. And I think what's interesting about that town hall meeting, he was like amused seemingly Roman because that's that's a very understandable for Roman reaction. Logan just seemed to be watching Chavon to see how she would handle it. Like he didn't see an upset. He's not upset that this happened, but he's very curious to see how Chavon handles. this moment and whether she will handle it the way that he would have handled it.

Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the manipulation that you pointed out earlier, the conversation that they have when he's like, does she even like me? Again, that sort of like very childish, almost like recess playground style of like flirting with your own daughter, you know, where you're like, I'll neg you until you tell me that I'm the greatest.

And there's something definitely really gross and strange about that. But also, I think he does want to see that she has the, that she has the killer instinct. He's obsessed with that idea of whether or not you're a killer. And this was a killer move that she pulled on her brother at the end. Yeah, stay tuned to our interview to find out whether or not we think Chavon actually wrote that letter, whether or not Logan run it. Hey, Ken, are you buying this? What?

Are you buying them this? What? The watch, no. No, I just said I'd hook you up, dude. What does that look? Don't get weird on me. I'm not your fucking sugar daddy, chief skate. No, that's all good.

I mean, it's $40. I'm not buying it. What's the fucking you, Doug? No, I can't. I'm going to need to give it back. It's not a good time. It has your patina. No, I don't have patina.

No, I shower. I want to talk about actually what I think Kendall's biggest mistake in this episode is. Okay. It's nothing to do with his siblings. It's nothing to do with Sophia Wovey. It's nothing, none of that. It is not paying for Greg's watch. Oh, my God.

Critical error. We talked so glowingly, not glowingly, but sort of repulsively. but sort of repulsively and glowingly about Kendall's like careful grooming of Greg last season and how he just like set him up and put him in a position where he's willing to help him. And then this is just like a small move. This is nothing to Kendall. This watch would be nothing to him. Hanging Craig out to dry like that.

I don't know. Tell me your thoughts about the watch. I think you're dead on. I had the same exact reaction. He almost seems proud. You know, he's mocking Greg. to Naomi about how he's not going to pay for this watch, which, again, like, I don't even really know what's informing that other than just feeling like you've got one up on another person around

you. And he's, like I said, he's so high on his own supply at this point in this episode. He's so sure of himself. And no matter what anyone is saying about him, that he's lost sight of the fact that Greg is a critical piece of this formulation, that in fact, it's a little bit of a house of cards. And if he loses Greg, whether it be to another independent counsel as supplied by Tom or whether Greg flips or whether Greg just disappears back to Canada, you know, any of those things would be nightmarish, I think, for Kendall. And again, like, well, okay, let me, let me ask you an important question.

Would you wear a $40,000 watch? No. Not even if it was purchased for me. I wouldn't. I could. What if it was supplied? to you to attend the Academy Awards, but you had to return it. Would you wear it? Yes. Would you wear a $40,000 watch? No. I'm in constant fear of just getting like punched in

the face and robbed. It's just many years of living in New York. I'm like, I don't, what is, I'm not a jewelry guy in the first place, but the whole time I was like, Greg, why do you need this man? Like what? Why? Come on. I'll tell you what I need. He did it, I think, to impress Comfrey. Conferee, yeah. I know. He did. He did. He did. It's like. And then she was like, why did you get it? He's like, You told me what the hell. Anyway, Greg is so interesting. I mean, the only reason I would wear it to this $40,000 watch to the Oscars, maybe if I had to return it, is because I know that, like, the person standing right

next to me has, like, a million dollar watch on. But who cares? What about just being yourself, you know? Craig needs to just be himself. Zero percent about impressing people. I'm just saying if I'm going to get, if someone's going to get robbed, it's not going to be a good old $40,000 me. Oh, that's actually a great call.

You're right. It's almost like that would be the cheapest watch in the room. at that point. That's a good call. Exactly. This is not a brag. I just want to tell you that I went to the Oscars two years ago for the one and only time. And at every turn, no matter where I went, when I entered, when I left, all the things I did, Gerard Butler was constantly like two feet from me randomly. He was just like my random Oscar, like, haunts. Is he a big Thrones guy, just asking you questions? What happened? We never spoke. We were just like, we were pacing each other every step of the way. It was so weird. So I'm just saying, Jerry Butler's

getting it robbed and I'll be fine. That's what I hear he's a very gregarious man. You guys didn't speak? I mean, I miss my shot with Charon Butler's. Ten of Thieves is huge here at the ringer. I don't know if you know that. We're huge fans of what Butler's up to. But Greg, the egg, like, let's talk about the fact that what's interesting is that

Tom tries to get Greg to go with him to speak to his lawyer friend, right? And Tom, through all of his bullshit, seems actually vulnerable in that moment where he asks great to go with him. And Greg says he'll try, but really he's got to go with Kendall to get the watch and to flirt with Comfrey, I think. And then later, he doesn't go with Kendall to raid the office and he rats him out to Tom. So, like, you know, it just takes a gentle breeze for Greg to blow the other direction and screw you over. And somehow people don't really seem to notice it that he's constantly playing whatever side he decides he wants to play in a given moment, you know? Yeah, there's, I don't know if you watch the TV.

show Survivor, but there is a convention and Survivor known as the Swing Vote when someone who is in the middle and can go from one side to the other and kind of critically decide an episode and who gets voted out at Tribal Council. A lot of times what happens with

the swing vote on the show, the stealth swing vote is someone who can usually succeed and go far in the game. The person who becomes a little bit enamored with their power as the swing vote usually gets their head chopped off pretty darn quickly. and Greg's playing a dangerous game.

You're totally right that Kendall has misunderstood how important Greg is, but also if Greg starts flip-flopping, he's going to be in big trouble. If he flips again on Tong or seems untrustworthy at a certain point, he's extremely vulnerable and also doesn't really have any power or reason to be kept around. I mean, he's a cousin. And a cousin who can't afford a $40,000 wash. What kind of cousin is that? That's right. He can barely hang.

Guys, I've never owned a watch that costs more than, like, I think, $20. So don't, I'm not flexi. I'm watch free today, as you can see. Yeah, I've actually been watch free since probably. I got a phone. So what's going on back there in my dad's office? You got any back-genital White House contacts in there or what? I'm joking. You can't tell me that. Right, right. And do you have an immunity deal with DOJ?

do you? It's good we can get around like this. Let's talk about Tom, though. Tom and Mondale. You want to talk about them together? I do. They're both going through something. Yes.

Very painful. I've had to do something similar to what Tom had to do with his dog, with a cat that had swallowed some yarn. It is one of the least pleasant things I've ever done in my entire life. Just so if you want to know where Tom's mindset was, not only did he have this terrible evening of bad news, seemingly drank some of his troubles away, but then he had to go do this very, very tough thing with his dog.

But Tom, tactical move, falling on his sword for Logan. How do we feel about this? Well, preemptively noting that if such a sword presented itself, he would fall upon it, which is a very... That's such a succession way to put it. I love how you just phrased that. If it is to be a sword, so it be.

So it must be. You know, I think it was not the right move. That's my take. I think if he's worried about curing favor with Logan, there will be more time in the future. I worry that this is going to lead to Matthew McFadden having to act inside of a jail soon. Just because they probably wouldn't raise this if it didn't have a payoff at some point. And so now I worry that there's going to be some meaningful payoff. Tom is is overthinking everything right now. I did think that his encounter with Kendall was very interesting. thing. There was a little bit of like a mirror image thing there about two very insecure guys who maybe don't realize how powerful they actually are and need to step back and just accept that, like, it's all going to be okay. Their lot in life is to be the president of a news network or the vice president of one of the most powerful media conglomerates in the world is like, that's good enough. Just settle down. Like you don't, there's, you don't have to take any more heads to rise to power. And that kind of like, almost like slack jawed, I see you moment between

them I thought was so fascinating. What did you think of that? It was a wild moment. I think it was, there was joy in it. We should note, by the way, that Jeremy Strong and Brian Cox have not shared a scene this season so far. But it was a joy. This is the first scene, I think, that, yeah, that Matthew McFadden and Jeremy Strong have shared.

And I consider them, along with Brian Cox, like the strongest performers on this show. So just watching them exchange even a look is electric to me. me, let alone like these really, this awkward, laughing, terrible interaction that they have. What is it that Kendall says? Like, the Snow Fun being the last eunuch in the Forbidden City or something like that? Yes. It's just like, you know, but there's like a better life for you. So like his Kendall zeroed in on Tom as someone that he can like use in his game.

Yeah, it was a little bit of a like you're the president of ATN. Maybe you can run something even bigger in my empire, you know, play our cards right, kid. We'll see. Always recruiting. Yeah. Kendall's always hiring. It would seem. But yeah, Tom, I don't know, and I will be really honest with you, I don't know how to read his interaction with Shiv.

If he was disappointed that Shiv told him it was a good idea for him to fall on his sword here, or the potential sword. Or if he was glad she thought it was a good idea. I genuinely can't. I couldn't read it fully. Are Tom and Shib okay right now? Do we even know? I don't know. I will say this.

And I know this is the first time we've seen them since they're together, since their tough conversation last season. But like, she was actually listening to him more than she usually does. She wasn't fully listening to him, but usually when they talk, she's having one conversation and he's having another.

And she did actually say something's like, Tom, it's not going to happen. I couldn't tell how much of that was performative or not. It might be performative, but is at the very least, like, responding directly to the thing that he just said versus some of the stuff that she does sometimes. Didn't seem rehearsed necessarily. Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to say. They've really been through it.

Their marriage has, they've been together for 10 years and one year, you know, it feels like they're jamming it all in in the first go. It's true. It's true. Poor Mondale, what will happen if this all falls apart. Tom gets Mondale, right? Obviously, I think. If you had to name one of your pets after a famed American politician, what politician would you go for? One of my favorite, I mean, I'm going to stall for a second because one of my favorite moments of Turnhaven is like how impressed the pierces were that Shiv and Tom had a dog named Mondale.

They're like, oh, their dog's name is Mondale. If I had to name, man, this is a tough one. I don't have a ready answer. Do you have a ready answer? I would not name a dog Spiro Agnew. I can confirm that. Would you name a dog scooter Libby? What if you just named the dog's scooter and you knew that it was Scooter Libby? But nobody else did. When I name my dog scooter, now everyone's going to know what I was thinking.

This is really, really tough. A scooter liby rough? Oh, no. Oh, no. All right. So, Jerry, you're not worried about Jerry. feel bad for Jerry even when like Steve suggests we name a dog Bob Dole. So that's, thanks. What about Dobble, bowl? Would that be? Just consider that. Could people figure it out? No, I don't, I would never, I would never name an animal or a child after a, after a politician. Dog Bowl. So Jerry. Yeah. You're not worried about Jerry, even though well, her job seems to be terrible and everyone is undermining her and Logan told her she was hovering.

Yeah, and Frank compared her to Pinocchio. That was tough. And Carl gave her the old okay. Like Frank and Carl. Come on guys. If you ever catch me giving you an okay on this pod, you got to tell me, we got to stop down. We'll do a little bit of, you know, pod therapy.

Then we'll get back on the recording. No, I mean, she's not long for that job. You know, like Logan doesn't really trust her. It doesn't seem like Roman is doing a good enough job of strategizing with her to keep her in place. You know, it's interesting that she has such a keen understanding of what the turn of events will be with the FBI. You know, she seems to have very sage advice, which is literally her job.

But as the CEO, she actually has less influence in that seat than she had when she was previously legal counsel, which is an interesting inversion that, you know, Logan is always threatened, always threatened by somebody who is on his heels. And this is Jerry on his heels a little bit. I do like at the end where she was just like, listen, I told you this was going to happen from the start. He fucked it. And now we have to deal with it. I also want to give a quick shout out to Hugo and Carolina because actually one of my favorite moments is when they come down to handle the mess in the lobby of 28 Liberty. I can authorize this. I am authorizing this.

Incredible Carolina moment. And Hugo being like, hey, what if we go to a second location, buddy? I mean, just the energy is flying around that room. It was just incredible. This is a really funny show, I think, about PR folks and flax and publicists. And, you know, from Comfrey to Hugo and Carolina to the sort of like the mouthpiece, I think, is a very interesting prototype figure in this story, too, which kind of goes along with some of the insights that you were sharing about media and social media and the messaging of this world. Like, who's more important than the person that is actually publicly supplying the information or writing the press releases or crafting the quote-unquote real questions that people want to answer? And, you know, there's so much

management of information going on. And it still seems like everybody is stepping on rakes left and right on this show. It's hard to pick what the worst job at Waystar would be. But I have to feel like it's Carolina's job. I don't know. Or maybe Hugo. I'm not sure exactly the distinction of what they do. But like it's just managing the messaging, constantly putting out fires.

Pierre is a nightmare job to begin with. Constantly putting out fires. and then dealing with incredibly unreasonable people who won't admit that they have done anything wrong. So you have to, like, tell them that something's wrong without implying that they did anything wrong. I mean, it's just nightmare top to bottom. It's really hard. Publicists sometimes have to make journalists lives very difficult. So I have a complicated relationship.

But I also have a lot of admiration for the difficulties of dealing with powerful, famous people and just what an absolute hellscape that can be. So this show is an interesting, it's a little bit of like a... upstairs downstairs. It has that quality, you know, where it's sort of like, these are the people that make things clean for the people who have power. And this episode in particular, I thought, shined an interesting light on that. I want to end with Logan, but before we go there, I want to talk about Naomi. Inside baseball of this podcast, something that I'm doing every week is I'm listening to all of the succession, Bice of the Apple that the Ring are doing, right?

And I want to make sure that whatever Chris and Andy talk about, like, we don't spend too much shocking time talking about that because if you listen to the watch and listen to this and want you to have like plenty to listen to. So I was irritated that they talked about Naomi after I was already determined to talk about Naomi. So we're going to talk about her anyway, which is this. It is fascinating for a character to be the love and the ostensible love interest of a main character of a show to be in scenes opposite Jeremy Strong constantly and to have almost no lines or character or personality. Despite having like a great intro in the Turnhaven episode. So we know that this actress, Annabel Dexter Jones, can do things as Naomi if they gave her

things to do. But really, even last season, she's got like a little bit of a moment on the yacht. But for the most part, is she even a character at all? What do you think is going on with Naomi here? Well, I think ultimately her character, which I guess you could make the case is slightly underwritten at this point, is more representative of one of the. criticisms that Shiv levels against her brother, which is that he has these kind of like transient relationships with women over time. And that he doesn't really view these, he views these women as like

kind of portals of validation, you know, just to sort of like tell him he's great. I mean, good tweet, bad tweet is almost like the ultimate version of Kendall needing to be told he's great. I think Annabel Dexter Jones is a really good actress. And she's also from a very well-known and wealthy family. She's she's English. She's the daughter of Mc Jones, the foreigner guitarist, and Anne Dexter Jones. You know, she's related to Charlotte Ronson, Sam Ronson, Mark Ronson. You know, she's in this kind of rarefied class. And so she has some access to this stuff. I thought she was very compellingly used in season two. Thus far, less exciting. More of just a cheerleader in almost a literal sense, which is disappointing. But we'll see. Maybe there's more in

store for her. An accessory and like, but she's not just yes anding him because she did like reject at least blessedly one of his terrible jokes at the Sofi show. So like, but yeah, I just, I want to keep my eye on her because I just like I don't, I don't quite understand what they're doing with her here. And if it's intentional, I would like to feel good about that rather than just have a like a mute blonde woman in scenes. Like I feel like Comfrey has more lines than Naomi. It's very, it's very interesting. All right. So we're already running a little long in that. That's my fault, but I want to, of course, go out with some Logan chatter and talk about this idea. Like, both he and Kendall do this thing where they hide from a thing, the, like, the DOJ probe and the Chavon and going on the Sophie show.

And in doing so, make it worse. Like, Chavon's letter being read out in full on the show is worse than what would have happened if Kendall had just gone out there and faced the music. And this late-night FBI raid has to be worse than if Logan had just cooperated in the first place, which I think is an interesting move for both of them. Also, just really quickly, I did Google whether – because most FBI raids, I thought, took place in early morning. But apparently it's either early morning or late at night so that the person being raided cannot get in touch with their legal counsel is the MO of the FBI. I mean, that makes sense. I think it's also a reflection of his vanishing or thinning power.

The idea that he thinks he can just kind of barrel his way through this without being taken down and that someone like him or that all people, frankly, and this goes back to our earlier conversation about whether it's cancel culture or whatever the hell you want to describe it as, this idea that like the chickens are coming home to roost for a certain kind of person in our culture over the last 10, 15 years. And Logan Roy, who once seemed to operate out of an ivory tower, impervious to destroying society, with his news media and the terrible acts on his cruise lines and all the other things he's done, he's not impervious. He is vulnerable. And he is like realizing in real time when Jerry is yelling

at him, frankly, about how they're coming upstairs, the jig is up, that he can't keep fight. He can't keep pretending this isn't real. He can't keep, you use the phrase ostriching in one of our first conversations. And it's been rattling around in my mind ever since you said it because that's what he's trying to do to pull this off by pretending to be tough, but mostly just hoping, no one calls him on his shit. And the FBI called them on a shit. So the FBI are here. Things don't look well.

Chavon looked physically ill watching the news about the raid. Like, did I cast my lot with the wrong team? Tough timing. Just literally like a day ago coming inside and they're being great. But also, I mean, shame on her. Come on, she's got to know the landscape. She knows politics. She knows this world.

Absolutely shame on her. I do want to say, the last thing I want to say, I think about the fact that Kathy Ann direct to this episode, And Lorraine's directing one of the later episodes of this season. Oh, love her. Director of Hustlers, for those who don't know. Fantastic director.

Wonderful. And I think it's interesting because I don't think there were any women who directed in the first season of succession. And then I think there was like one woman who maybe directed in season two. But they, bringing in like two like film, female film directors this season,

it feels intentional to me. And I think having a woman direct this episode where Chavon is skewered. in this very public manner after just saying, like when she announces herself as the president, Sarah Snook, like, allows Chavon this, like, very proud smile, a facial expression we haven't, I think, seen often on her face.

I think it was really smart to put a woman directing this episode, the specific episode. Definitely, and I think even more so in both Kathy and Lorene, really talented filmmakers. Like people who have made movies that have showed, like, a sense of style, a sense of point of view. You know, being a director of a TV show is complicated. You've talked to a lot of them over the years.

It's often such a difficult job to kind of plug and play into a predetermined set of visuals. Mark Myelod gets a lot of credit here. Obviously, Adam McKay directed the premiere episode of the show, the pilot episode of the show and kind of set the template in a lot of ways, too, for how things we're going to look and move. And so it's hard to get in there and also feel like you're getting to touch something and change it a little bit. So I just love the idea. I mean, you know me. I'm movie directors are my favorite people in the world. So I'm just all about movie directors joining my succession world. No, I love, I love that they are looking to these people, these women, specifically for, for these episodes. And I think, I just think that that's just added value

to this. But I think to your point about TV directors versus film directors, I think maybe was slightly, like, Mark Milon is a little different because he's almost like a series director at this point. And I think he's an EP on the show. But, um, I think I was a little mistaken in giving him too much credit when these DPs, Chris Nore and Pat Capone, who are on every episode, you know, maybe deserve a little bit more credit for some of the look of the show. And if you want to listen to them talk about it, it's a series, it's American cinematographers on Vimeo. Larry Scher was sort of moderating it. It's Larry Scher, who was a DP on The Joker, among other things. Yes, very talented DP. very talented DPs. So it's three DPs talking about their craft. And it's interesting even if I don't understand anything about lenses. So that's something I recommend. Anything else you want to say about this episode? No, it's a good one. I'm having a lot of fun doing this show. And I'm excited to hear your conversation with Sarah Snuck. All right. Let's listen to Sarah Snuck. Like, is there a world where you stop being gross and throwing stones and we can acknowledge and rebuild truth and reconciliation?

And maybe we can actually find a way to fucking fix things from the inside, which is the only place that anything ever gets done anyway. They mean you get all dressed up for this? So I want to start by asking you, Kendall obviously sort of fancies himself the morally superior one in this season. And whether or not that's true, that was once Chavon's role. And I was reading an old interview where you said Chavon can fool herself into thinking she's, a good person. Do you think that's something, that's still something that she's clinging to in this season?

Yeah, I think so. I think this season really is about her redefining her sense of self. I think previously she's been outside the family business and to some extent outside the family. And now, with her sort of commitment to going for

the top job, being a part of Waystar, she's really in a difficult situation of having to define who she is. And Kendall says that to her and I think episode two, which is like, I'm the real you. And then she's like, yeah, yeah, whatever, I'm the real you. Real me.

You know, that's a joke and she passes it off. But there is something, there's a little bit of truth in that. And I think as a brother, he's been able to spot that. There's this, I mean, there's so many heartbreaking moments in episode three, really tough to watch moments for fans of Chavon. The moment when the Nirvana starts playing at the town hall and something really breaks there, right?

Really, what do you feel like is broken? How is that position on the page and how are you approaching that moment for your character? I think it's really, it's something that, the thing that broke was probably like just being presuming and guessing or sort of hoping it's not true, but being shown that it probably is that all of this Kendall show of being. all the victims and for change and all of this is probably just for sure that it's that it's empty promises, that it's hot air, that it's taking advantage of a moment, that it's trying to get back at dad, and that it's not coming from a genuine place.

And I think that moment, where it is a personal attack using the victim's personal experiences against Shiv in that moment is so disgusting, really. It's like, I mean, fuck you. there's nowhere to go from that. It's so, it's embarrassing for Shiv, but it's more embarrassing. And it's very much like, well, game on for her thoughts against her brother. So the follow up to that is, of course, the spitting moment in the office. Is that, I mean, probably was, but I'm wondering if that was scripted or if they were just like going there and find something to spit on or what was the, how was it on the page?

Oh, no, it was definitely scripted. in the best kind of way of like, and when I read that, I was like, oh, wow, okay, brilliant. How am I going to spit? Is it like a long spit, like something from that Adam Sandler movie where the kid just skits really long for a while or is it a quick hoik and spit? Is she a quick and spit? Is that a thing she does? Does she know how?

Is it a spray? We did a lot of things. I mean, I even, yeah. There's a lot of spit takes is what you're telling me. I mean, there's a lot of takes. There was a different offer as well of like, you know what? I mean, Roman probably would wipe his balls on the journal. I want to, yeah, maybe I'll do something similar.

You know, like, kicking boxes and having a fit. But I think what they went with was just like keeping it a little more contained and giving shit of her dignity and power really there in that moment, just fitting into the journal, into the diary. All these characters are so interesting because if they were bastards all the time, I don't think it would be as interesting to watch them. but they are capable of real compassion sometimes. One of my favorite moments is in season two when, you know,

Shiv gives Kendall this hug in the episode Safe Room, I think it is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it's hard for us as an audience to always know how these Roy's are going to react because you don't know when they're going to sort of be spiky and hurt and when they're going to offer an olive branch. And so I'm curious for you, is there an internal logic for you is when Shiv is able to be compassionate and when her

defenses are up or she's completely self-absorbed. I mean, a lot of it is dictated by the writing as well where you have to, you know, the scenes sort of tends to lean in a certain way and you go, okay, well, that makes sense here in this moment and I've got to work out a way to make that truthfully and honestly. And I think, you know, but for instance, there's a scene at the protection of journalists

and their welfare, the gala dinner where she sees Nate and then she sees Kendall. And I think that, and that's when he says the, you know, it's you now. And I think for her there, it is like, yeah, she might be doing a play for her dad, but it's also, it's not untruthful. It's not, she's never, she's got a good sense for can she stand behind this, can she back this, even if no one else does. and I think it's the same kind of maybe horrible determination that gets her through doing that scene with Kira and saying you shouldn't testify. Because I think she genuinely believes you shouldn't testify, even though she knows it's maybe not the right thing to do culturally and definitely not.

But for Kira, she's not lying to her. She's not saying anything that is untruthful to her. And the same thing with Kendall in that scene. She is being genuine there. She is saying, we can work together if we have the same aim. I'm just checking if we do or not. That may be, you know, secondarily to that is on behalf of her dad, but also she has to be able to stand behind of herself.

I think that's part of what this season, I think, is for her as well, is that that self-identity and who she is and where she stands and what is this new version of Shiv that she can present to the world, you know? I don't know what other people are rooting for at home. when they watch Succession, but I'm always rooting for the kids to band together. Like, if they were, if they could just come together, yeah, everything feels like it would be okay or at least better. And they always, and they keep coming so, so close.

They keep coming so close, right? See, episode two of the season is all about it. Almost, it almost happens, right? And I'm wondering, what do you think is the main thing that gets in the way of them figuring that out? I mean, a lot of the time it's their ego. You know, they're like, they're not able to see each other or see the situation for what it is because their ego doesn't let them trust each other. You know, they get in the way of each other and they have these familial relationships, but it's also wrapped up in business and power.

And so they can't necessarily see the wood for the trees. It's interesting because, you know, that makes you think of something else you said about the Schiv and Tom relationship where, in your view, Shiv does love Tom, but she's afraid to love Tom. Yeah, yeah. And I'm wondering, you know, is that source to what she experienced from her awful parents growing up or what she observed from their relationship, or where do you think that fear comes from for her? Oh, I think from just, you know, experience in her family and home life in her relationship with her dad, her parents' relationship with themselves, like with each other, Caroline and Logan,

and her relationship with her mom, there's no steady rock to stand on in terms of the family relationships around her. I think, you know, in terms of who people are, Tom is actually the most steady, the most stable, the most trustworthy. But experience in life has been that you can't and you shouldn't trust people

because then you diminish power yourself. Something that I think is so interesting. A lot of times when you talk to actors about the most useful thing to do in a scene is to connect with your partner, right? To really listen to your partner and connect with them. And I just thought it was so interesting

watching so many of your scenes with Matthew, especially in season two. There's so many scenes where Shiv is literally not listening to Tom at all. She's talking at him and he'll say something and she's just really basically monologuing. And so I'm wondering if that's, is that tough for you as a performer

to sort of ignore the instance? to listen. Oh, it's so hard. Yeah, totally. It's so hard. And particularly with Matthew, because he's so arresting. And he has this, you know, giant puppy dog eyes and so much of what he's going through in this season is, is vulnerable. And it's in need of Shiv and her guidance or her, um, just love, really something, even something maternal from her, which is just never going to come, really. And also, doing the same when we were drinking wine together. It's really hard not to pay him attention because he really just commands it. And it's really hard not to laugh in that too because it's just so rude.

She's so rude. I really have to go like, stop at ship. But she, yeah, she does it on a page. So she's got to do it on camera. I do have a stop at Shiv question for you. I mean, there's so many, you know, watching all these characters. constantly working against their own interests in certain ways. And I'm wondering if there's like one big moment that stands out for you that is like the most stop at shiv moment.

Like, why did you do that? This was the wrong move. I mean, probably the episode five in season two where she says, I mean, but it's very easy as an actor to say, stop at shiv, but also please keep going. It's all right. You know, like you're going. Yes, you want to say, Stubber Shoev, but it's also like, nah, that's the fun stuff. That's where it's getting juicy, you know? But what happens in season two?

In season, oh, sorry, at the dinner table, which is I like, just tell it that, just telling that it was me. It's like you've already chosen. Turnhaven, when my heart goes all the way down to my shoes, because I'm, like, devastated for her. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, the stomach drops. Something that Ships says a couple times to Tom that I think is so interesting. There's all these little like kernels of biographical background that we get that we don't get fully explained. And so one of the things from Shiv is she said, I was a mess when I met you. I need you, Tom, is something that she said. And I'm wondering if you have a, you know, whether or not the writers have told you what that means specifically or if you have a specific idea in mind what it meant for Shiv to be such a mess when she met. Yeah, I have an idea.

And what I love about Jesse and the writing team and, and, and their sort of process is they deserve the right to change their mind. So it's, it is, you know, it's something that I have in mind at the moment for me, but until it's confirmed in writing and until if it makes the edit

and until it, you know, is on screen at the end of the season, it doesn't exist. And I love that, you know. I've never worked that way before. I've mostly done theatre or a film woman that's like it's an end to end. We know exactly what happened or happens. There's no question marks. And I really like the idea that there is a moment that Shiv, there has been evidence of Shiv out of control. And for a person who's in control and confidently in control

and feels from the outside that she always is, even though there are moments where she, you know, loses it or acts before she thinks, that is really delicious. to think about as a potential character arc or directions in the future. It may have come from actually, like, Jesse, I met up with Jesse in the writer's room between first and second season and deciding what was going to happen. It's like, anything you want to happen to Shiv? And I was like, what? I've never been faced with the Hitchell.

What do you mean? If I want anything to happen to Shiv? Sure. But I couldn't think of anything on the spot. And all I could say was just like, yeah, that for a person who's in control, I'd love to see her out of control. And at that point, we were saying Kendall potentially spiral. And I think there's got to be something that is like a familial family trait, you know. The spiral, the self-destruction, the sort of all of that.

Yeah, yeah. My question, this is a, this is a question that I almost want the answer to be no. I'm rooting for Shiv. I want Shiv to have everything she wants. But I also don't want Shiv to have the throne because I feel like ultimately that's a poisonous thing to have. So my question is, like, do you think she thinks she can do the job? Do you think Shiv could do the job that Logan does? Oh, I mean, I think of the family members,

Shiv is the most like, I mean, I like to believe shev is the most like Logan, whether that is true, who knows. But can she do the job? I don't know, man. Can anyone, any of the siblings do that job? you know like in a way Logan has built it so that they can't he's forever

hobbled them to being always in his shadow and not having their own so even if they did and even if they could do the job they would still never think that they were able to truly you know they would always be looking over their shoulder or looking up to see what dad thought and Logan doesn't do that he doesn't need to look to anyone and I love those moments when the kids

will like, I call them the kids, even though they're adults, when the kids will, you know, when the kids will say something, assert themselves, and then sort of look uncertainly at Logan for his reaction. Do you know what I mean? There's this like real, real little kid moment from them. It's interesting that you talk about Chavon being like Logan because in this episode letter that she writes that she puts out to the press. Well, first of all, do you think Chavon wrote that by herself or did Logan help her? I think that, yeah,

I think Logan gave her the brief, gave her what he thought she should be saying. And I think she then took the brief and ran with it and embellished, you know, to a point. But she's smart, you know, she's not going to do anything

that's libelous. She's not, she's not, you know, she probably ran it through a lawyer as well. I think she, um, she wanted her brothers to be there as well to, to stand behind her for more impact, but she's also, you know, she also is determined to,

to win. And if it means that she has to win alone and they're not going to come onto the winning side that she's decided, this is the winning side, then fuck him. You know, like, she's got to do it by itself. And there's something that is stubborn about Shiv, you know, there's something that is like, yeah, that is, again, like Logan. Can I ask one really quick, very fast question, which is really quickly. if you have a favorite line or insult or whatever from this season that is either yours or anyone else.

Oh, I don't know. When Matthew comes in, there's a same with Matthew and Nick, the Tom and Greg scene where he introduces the idea of Nero and Spora. And he comes in saying, hello, Terminal Tom here. It's just, it's so bananas. And the way he says it is so, like, joyous somehow. And I just think it's such a brilliant pitch for a thing. Like he doesn't come into the beginning of that scene, you know, down in the dumps and dragging his feet like you would expect when you read on the page

that this person who's being called terminal tongue cancer of the career would be. And he instead comes in with this sort of like gay abandoned. And it's brilliant. Perfect. Thank you so much for your time. I really. You're welcome. Thanks.

All right. That is it for us this week. We have, I'm happy to remember. report. Source some snake meat that we might be consuming in the future podcast bonding episode. Steve, are you all in for snake beat bonding on this episode? I've never been more in anything in my career at this company than what we might do with snake meat. I'm absolutely terrified by this. You're so excited. So please consider that my personal thank you to Steve Allman for being up for everything in general and for producing this podcast.

If you want more succession and how could you not? There's so much more to come. Stay tuned to this very feed on Friday for the Prestige TV Succession Prequel episode with Chris Ryan and Waz. And we'll be back next week with an Oscar winner. Mr. Adrian Brody will be on the podcast. So we'll ask him how much the watch he wore to the Oscars cost and other things. And we're back next.

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