The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 3 Episode 4, With Adrien Brody

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Sean and Joanna are back to talk about the latest episode of ‘Succession,’ “Lion in the Meadow.” They discuss Logan and Kendall’s tense reunion, as well as how Shiv might be in store for a rude awakening. Later, Joanna is joined by Adrien Brody to discuss his delightful guest appearance in this episode (55:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Joanna Robinson Guest: Adrien Brody Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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calling the Succession Deep Dive Wednesdays. Bear with me as I spit out some Rioja and remove my jacket, my vest, my hoodie, my cardigan, and my scarf to welcome my co-host, Sean Fennessee. I'm Jordan Robinson, by the way. I should have said that. But let me welcome my co-Chan Fentasy to the podcast to Lowe Sean. Wow, the layers of it all. Let's de-layer.

Let's peel this onion. What's it worth in terms of the me of it all, Joanna? I mean, it's invaluable. I need to start. Before we break down this episode of Succession, Season 3, Episode 4, Line in the Meadow, written by John Brown, directed by Sherry Springer Berman, and Robert Pulcini. I'm going to start with a really, really important make or break the podcast question for you, Sean Fantasy. Okay. The Beatles.

Yes. Good band or great band? Great band. I will not be trolled into renegotiating my feelings, re-evaluating my feelings, my allegiance, my fealty to the Beatles. I live for the Beatles. In this life, I think you're either a Beatles or a Stones person as a primary binary, and I am a Beatles person. What about yourself? Oh, I'm to my core, a Beatles person.

Steve Allman, our producer, Beatles, good band or great band? Absolutely great band. Excellent. I'm glad we're all on the same page, yeah. I just, I encounter some bad takes in the world of people saying the Beatles are not even a good band. And then I feel kind of heated about it. Let me put it. Before we get into succession, very quickly, what is your favorite Beatles era and or album?

I was going to ask you the same question. It changes as you age, don't you think? It does. It does. Okay, so my first CD that I ever owned was a double CD set of the White Album. because I was like with my mom at the store and she said you can get a CD and I tricked her. I got a double album two CDs. So the white album.

I was really into Rubber Soul for a long time. That was like my jam. And now it's an Abbey Road kind of thing. How about you? What's your? Well, I think I was introduced obviously by the hyper kinetic early pop songs but didn't never thought of those as album albums. And then, you know, had a very typical kind of like rubber soul revolver, Sergeant Pepper's obsession

as a teenager. Get into college, white album became much more important to me. I started to get really into Let It Be when I was in a little bit of my like, peevish. I have interesting opinions about things that not everybody agrees on phase. And now as I get a little bit older, I'm getting a little bit more emotionally attached to some of those early records. You meet the Beatles and things like that. And appreciating just the stripped down perfection of those tunes. But you know what?

Two years from now, maybe I'll be super into, I don't know, the, the, the, the, disconnected, deconstructed sessions from some album that I didn't previously care about that much. So we shall see. I love a Beatles session. Like there's that fly on the wall album, right? That's just like, yeah, anyway. And this is not a Beatles podcast, but last week you and I had mentioned the idea of maybe starting a Terrence Malik podcast.

So maybe it's Terrence Malik, Ven Beatles podcast. Let's see. We'll just figure it all out. I mean, there's a big Beatles documentary coming to Disney Plus in just three weeks, directed by someone you and I. I both really enjoy Peter Jackson. So it's, uh, it's, uh, big doings in Beatles fans world. All right.

So we're here to talk about this episode, Lion in the Meadow, which is named after a children's book, I think a really interesting title, uh, for this episode. Um, we're going to get into some more of the B by B. We should also, I have, don't think I've even mentioned this yet. We've got Adrian Brody on the podcast. Hell yeah. Uh, today. Yeah.

And I promise you, my very first question for him was tell me about Josh's layers of clothing. The question we all wanted to answer is why is this guy wearing 14 articles of clothing? Yeah. And Adrian Brody gave a very long and eloquent answer to that question. So it's all thought out and really interesting. So we will be hearing from him at the end of the podcast. We'll also get into some like Beat by B stuff, but what we like to do here on Deep Dive Wednesdays

is try to take like sort of a broader look at the show and maybe answer some bigger questions. So I guess the question that I have for you, as we contemplate this episode, where Logan is sitting at a table enjoying clams all fresco with Josh and Kendall, and says these incredible things about Kendall being a very good boy, perhaps the best of us. And Kendall gets this look on his face. What do you think is a happy ending for these characters on succession and, and for. follow-up, do you think this is a show that's interested in happy endings? To the latter question, no. I don't think we will conclude this series, let's say, five, six, seven seasons in. And, you know, God willing, we're still doing this pod and analyzing and diving deep on Wednesdays into what it all means. I don't think it's very interested in happy

endings. What would a happy ending look like? I think for the children, it has to end in a graceful and non-controversial death for their father. I don't think that's a very important. I don't think that there's really any other place for it to go other than Logan is able to drift off into the sea mist to become a kind of heavenly vapor away and to leave his children with much to graze on, a wide open field of opportunity. That is almost certainly not going to happen though, especially based on the way that we see this episode roll out and kind of where this whole season kind of seems to be going. So at this point, four episodes in, I mean, do you see any happy endings on the horizon? Where do you think this is all kind of driving towards?

It's silly to talk about a finale of a show that definitely at least has like two more seasons after this too. I'm the one who pose the question, but I will say I feel like no matter what the ending is going to be, it's not going to be quite what we expect. And I think of all the series creators out there, Jesse Armstrong is really capable of giving me an ending that feels melancholy but satisfying. I think it's going to be like, like the ending of the graduate or something like that. We're like there's an ending and then there's another ending within the ending where you're like, oh, oh no. You know what I mean?

And wouldn't it be just perfect if it was a graduate style, okay, now what kind of ending? You know, one of my favorite movies of all time is this film The Candidate. And at the end of the candidate, Robert Redford, the candidate wins. And then everyone looks around and he looks at everyone. And then they're like, well, shit, what do we do now that we won this election? And it does kind of feel like everyone wants. something, but they don't want it for what it is. They want it for what it represents to them. And that's a problem of motivation for people who otherwise have everything. It's the one thing they

don't have, which is power and a sense of finality in this pursuit of power. And I like the theory, a popular theory in one that I've been sort of into is that Greg is going to sort of like fumble, bumble his way to the top of the end of all of this, right? And like, I wouldn't hate that. But given that it's a kind of a popular theory and one that I'm into, I bet that Jesse Armstrong threw that out the window because he's not going to do, I think, exactly what we expect him to do. But I like the idea of an ending where Kendall gets Waystar and now what?

It seems very plausible the way that things are going. They're not flushing Kendall down the toilet. That is something that they could have quickly done with this season. They could have dispatched with him and made him seem buffoonish. Even at the end of episode three, we felt like, whoa, he's really been stricken with this letter from Shiv. And this episode, he kind of slingshots his way back into a kind of contention, a kind of power, even as soon as that conference call on the phone where you're like, okay, at least he is sticking to his guns and has some vision for what he, how he wants to handle this. So now my dream to enter a conference call on declaring myself, little Lord Fluckleroy, but we'll see if I ever achieved that dream. It's only been a couple of months at the ringer, you know.

It's all in front of you. Okay. Great. I think what's interesting about this episode in terms of Logan, who has to be, of course, the titular line in the meadow is like something that Brian Cox said in our interview in the first episode of the season was the pressure that Logan feels, a sort of physical pressure. We talked about that first episode where he's like, I can't even risk eating something bad because if I get the shits, we're all screwed. So, like, physically he has to carry this whole thing. And you have to wonder, like, if he physically could have made this march that Josh Aronson very, in a very calculated manner, takes him on.

If he could have physically made it through without this collapse, would this have ended differently for the family? I've given this a lot of thought. I think it was a setup for a moment one. I think maybe Josh was holding out 10% of potentiality that Logan and Kendall would wow him or, Logan would seem particularly fierce or Kendall had a particularly insightful strategy for how to raise the company up. But my impression, based on the timing of the Stewie arrival and Stewie coming second, arriving after that first conversation, seems to indicate to me that Josh sort of had his mind met up. Also, the way that Josh and Stewie embraced on that tarmac, they seemed very

warm towards one another. You might have noticed that Josh had removed several of his layers Ah, closer to the touch. Yes, exactly. The artifice falls away. Exactly, exactly. For that hug. Stew doesn't even have socks on. Anyway, yeah, that's really interesting.

Again, I'm going to try to do that thing where I don't spoil our own interview, but the way that Adrian Brody described his character is as a picador in a bullfight who's just there to like poke and prod at the animals, puts themselves in danger, but really just there to like stab one, stab the other, see. how they react. So I agree with you. I think maybe it was slightly larger than 10%, but like a minority percentage that the Roy's had a chance of pulling this out if they had coordinated their efforts a bit better than they did. I think he might not have done that bit of tone shifting if he was feeling better about how things were going. But there is of course that moment during the meal

towards the end where it's sort of like, let's cut the bullshit here. What is really going on here? And you get the sense that if he was feeling a little bit more confident about the state of things, he would not have switched into that mode. And once he does that, I think it's already reasonable to assume. And we know from where we sit that Logan is utterly full of shit when he's praising his son. His son doesn't really buy a word of it, even if there's that little vanishing piece of him that wants to believe it still. He knows in his heart of hearts it's not true.

And so it's all kind of transparent at that point to me. But you're right. Maybe it could have been bigger than 10%. But between Logan's health and Kendall's skittishness slash insecurity, it was pretty clear that they did not sway, Josh. Yeah, it's just the physical aspect of it all for Logan just continues to be really interesting to me. Because here's a man who's like, and his mind, of course,

was a question in season one, but here's a man who, in theory, like, I mean, his power is in many ways. He's the big man. Like, Connor doesn't want to deal with. shift, he wants to talk to, like, the big man or, like, you know, like, there's no substitute for this person. I had a boss like that. I used to work for this institution called City Arts in lectures in San Francisco, where we'd do, like,

on-stage conversations. And, like, for a less important guest, let's say, the two producers, which was myself and another young woman, we were, like, in our early 20s, we would run the show. And then for a more important guess, our boss would be there. And it was always, like, a thing if our boss wasn't there. They were like, oh, I see. I see where I rank. I don't get the, I don't get the full treatment.

So, you know, where's the big man is an interesting question. But the fact that, like, Logan can't, he's not immortal. He can't physically keep up with his own head for business, et cetera. I just think it's interesting. I think he's lacking. It's not his mind at this point. And it was interesting to watch Kendall attempt to disembowel him at the end of the episode when he's kind of, you know, ranting back.

at his father after he's stripped him down. But in the early stages of the meet, one, when Josh greets him with O'Captain, my captain, and you get the sense that he has been anticipating the big man, as you say, but also how clear and confident and concise everything Logan says to Josh is in those early stages in that meeting. Or it's just like, stick with me and I'll make you whole. He's got it all down flat.

Exactly. But it's still not enough for Josh. I mean, because Logan's not. can't live forever. Like, that's the problem, you know? And, like, the fact that both Kendall and Logan approached Josh in the same way, which is to appeal to him as a father and bring in their, like, own fatherhood experiences. But, like, Logan is so much smoother with it. Like, once you see Logan come in and do it, you're like, oh, Kendall learned that tactic from his dad. Make that personal, oh, how are the kids, you know, like, blah, blah. How's your daughter? How's your sick daughter? Exactly.

But Logan just does it better, smoother. Many of these titans of industry, upon whom there is a kind of like a loose agglomeration of influences now on the Logan character. It's not just any one person. But almost all of those people, you get the sense when, if you read a biography of someone like this, if you read about Rupert Murdoch or you read about Sumner Redstone, or you read about a David Geffen type, they're all kind of charming in their own discreet way, you know? And Logan does still have a kind of like gruff, but persuasive charm. And it's interesting to watch it kind of slip through his fingers in real time as he gets older. You know, that's something that I don't know that we've ever really seen in a character like this. It is very, it is, you know, it's a bit tried to say it at this moment, but it is very Shakespearean.

It is very kinglier to watch this kind of slip through in real time. And it's interesting to see it in a modern context. It's all good? I don't know. Sure. It's all terrible. It's all good. you know, whatever.

Right. I don't know. I guess that's my whole question. We should probably wait for the old men. But yeah, look, it's a fuck pie. But end of the day, it's not that complicated. Like, I'm better than my dad. But my dad is still better than Sandy and Stewie.

Let's talk about Josh Aronson as a character. Okay. As an element to introduce here. And the casting of Adrian Brody. So I think that's interesting. is that this was a agent Brady says it was a collaborative effort to create

this character with the writers. Did you read his GQ profile? I will. I actually did not read it specifically because I wanted to wait until he appeared on the show, but I'll just say I believe that profile was written by a former ringer staff for Sam Shuby, friend of the show. Wonderful. Wonderful stuff.

Great profile. The plot of this profile, you know on a magazine profile, you often do an activity with the subject, right? Yeah. So they go on a hike and there's a part in the hike when it's supposed to be done. And Adrian Brody's like, how about we just press on? I fucking hate when my wife does that with me on a hike. I hate it, Joanna, and she does it all the time. It's always like, let's go on this hike. It's one and a half miles. We'll have a really nice time. We'll be able to turn around. The sun will be setting. It'll be

gorgeous. And then we get all the way into the center of the mountain. And she's like, but if we just make a left, we can just go another two miles. I'm like, this is wrong what you've done to me here. And And it feels like Josh pulled a move. My favorite part of that GQ profile is that Adrian Brody then made Sam do a hike on day two of the profile that they weren't supposed to do either. So I was like, this is just Josh, Josh Aronson, like, testing the boundaries of like anyway. So the marriage of performer and character, a lot is going on here. Give me your Brody thoughts. I have a theory of Brody.

Brody, one of my favorite actors of the 21st century, someone who has risen really in fallen quite frequently over that this 20 years that we've seen him. Obviously won an Academy Award for his work in the pianist and is incredibly gifted, but is incredibly idiosyncratic. And he's like a banjo. He's not a guitar. Not many people know how to play the banjo. But if you know how to play Adrian Brody,

you can make a beautiful sound. And he is very finely tuned in West Anderson movies, but not so much in a lot of other contemporary stuff. This was a perfect meeting point of. of smarm, elegance, intelligence, a little weaseliness. You know, all of the things that make Brody a kind of, and also he is very tall and kind of sinewy, and he has like an incredible physical presence.

And you feel like he's been wrapped in a hundred scarves in all of his layering, you know? And he has a kind of wealth, but it's a Nouveau-Riche thing. And he, you know, is reflecting on that in the character. I thought it was great. I love Brody, I thought it was perfect casting. It's like the leggy princeling of Montauk, Josh Harrison.

So where do you think that they were? Where was his compound? This was a topic of debate on the watch. Did you have any thoughts on where they flew to? I don't know where they flew to because I'm not as familiar as Chris and Andy are about like what you take a flight to. I do. They filmed it on Montauk. So they were technically a Montauk, but obviously it's supposed to be Josh's private island.

And that's not what Montau is. If it were Montauk, it would be kind of beautiful. I am myself, I'm from Long Island. I'm a Long Islander. And Montauk, when I was growing up, was a safe harbor. almost literally, for a kind of like middle class vacation. You know, it's where you could take your kids 90 minute, two hour drive, shack up in a nice little modestly priced hotel. And over the course of my adulthood, has become increasingly

Nouveau-Riche, frankly. And maybe Josh is representational of a kind of warring faction amongst the elites. Maybe. A very like West Egg, East Egg. If I, if you return to my Gatsby, my Gatsby stuff. So yeah, it's a very warring faction. East Egg, that's Newvar Rishi, isn't it? I believe so. So, yeah, I mean, I think that introducing Josh here is great. This also does strike me as a very COVID-safe, you know, scenario. Got three actors outside in the open air for most of the episode.

But it's interesting because Josh doesn't show up until like 20 minutes into this episode, which I had sort of forgotten until I rewatched that there's a long stretch where he doesn't show up. Also, one last detailed question for you. I don't have the answer to this. Do you have a theory on what book Josh is reading before Kendall and Logan wanted? I didn't pay close enough attention to this. I think it's possible that it's, you know, kind of Gladwellian social psychology sort of piece of, you know, that sort of your business types tend to be drawn to.

I could see that. I think also it was even really reading it is probably a bigger question. Exactly right. I completely agree with you. I just want to say that I had a Twitter. For a second, I thought he was reading La Tranger because the black and white on the cover looks very similar to my copy of that book. But I checked.

It's not exactly the same. So the mystery continues. If anyone's listening, because I used to be a book seller, it's one of my favorite things to try to identify a book by just like the back cover. If anyone's listening in, I could identify the book by the back cover, please let me know. Tweet at me. I would like to know. But how does that work after what you've said?

How the hell does that work? Well, you know, Beatles put out some of their best shit when they were suing each other, right? Yeah, good band. Uh-huh. Great band. Good band. What do you want to get into in this Kendall, Logan, and Josh of it all? Besides a reference to one of Adrian Brody's less well-received performances in King Kong.

I underrated movie, in my opinion. I think the Peter Jackson Kong is pretty solid. that's two Peter Jackson references in one podcast about succession so far. Can we get to three? I think we can. You made a note of this in our show notes, and I think that this is very pointed and very effective, which is just the anti-Semitic nature of the Roy clan, particularly Logan, and using Josh as this new Roiche character, who is sort of an outsider and quite obviously

a Jewish man. And there are references inside of the office space in which Connor is reflecting on the racist and sexist history of the company. and then also, you know, all of these flash phrases, these watchwords, you know, pound of flesh and chisling little fuck and coffee and bagel. And, you know, we see there is a purposeful divide here, you know, that Logan's old world white, Protestant, Christian, you know, power mad structure is actually literally starting to change in the real world. And this is like a, you know, he doesn't, yet still doesn't know how to communicate. with the changing world, it feels like. This is going to sound so naive, but coming from Logan, or maybe even a Frank, Frank says,

I think Frank is the one who says, pound of flesh. I'm kind of like, okay, Roman, I was like a little surprised. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think you said chisling little fuck. And like, once again, maybe that's just completely naive of me, but. No, I mean, I think that there was like this reversion, right, from this last episode where he refuses to sign the letter for Kendall.

But then, of course, in this episode, he's kind of all back in on the betrayal train. And so I think there's a little bit of just personality confusion with Roman in general. He doesn't really know how dastardly he wants to be, you know, how hateful he wants to be because he's a person sort of without an identity, you know, without belief. Did you see Kieran on SNL? I didn't see SNL this weekend. Was he good? So Kieran's model, in his model, he says something like people tell him all the time that this is like the perfect role for him.

And he's like, I'm not sure. Take that at all, first of all. But then also he said something about, like, how he plays the nice one in the family, but that the bar is so low for that. And I'm like, is Roman the nice one? And I was like, I guess kind of. I mean, if I had to pick one that seemed the least likely, Connor seems toothless, but I don't know. I don't trust him at all. I think he has a real mean streak, but he has this utterly charming sense of self-awareness.

Every conversation with him, with Roman, feels like the DVD commentary of the scene. You know, he is sort of like externalizing the observations that he's having in his head in a way that most people do not. And because he's so wealthy, he's like, what are you going to do to me? I can just say what everyone is thinking. And that's such a powerful tool for the writers to have. That reminds me one of my all-time, sorry, this is a slight tangent, but my all-time favorite DVD commentary actually is Kieran Culkin on Scott. Pilgrim. I don't know if you've like listened to all this TV and commentaries. I have definitely listened to it. There's like that one that if you

guys, I mean, Sean and I both love physical media. Steve, our producer agrees. Yes, but the spot, the Scott Pilgrim has like commentaries from everyone in the cast and like little clusters. A duos and trios, right? Yeah, yeah. But if you get the Schwartzman commentary or the Kieran Culkin commentary, it's so, they're all good, but those are so good. And My favorite is it was an observation about Brie Larson because she shows up and she does the metric song, Black Sheep, right? I think it was Colkin and might have been Chorceman. It says something like, wow, she really phoned it in that day. Just like really came with nothing on that day.

Anyway. Yeah, AKA he is Roman. Yeah, that's the thing. It's true. It's really true. And I think that's something, you know, to the point about Adrian Brody sort of being a match for Josh in some ways and not others, I think that's what, and we've talked about this before. with the writer's accession have always tried to do is bring as much of the personality of the actor into the role that they can with some obviously added awfulness.

Let's talk a little bit more about Roman. So there's this Jerry Revelation, obviously, that she's dating and his reaction to that. And something that I asked you, I think, before the season started maybe in a slightly leading way because I knew sort of how these first four episodes were handled was like, do you want to see them like put the gas on Roman and Jerry or do you want them to like, so the breaks or how do we come back from where we went last season, et cetera, like where do we want to exist? And for me, I'll just say, this is my ideal space right here. How they are operating here. How they are now. Yes. What do you think? Yeah, Sam and Diane before they make it happen. You know, that's what you want.

You want the banter, the interplay, the sense of hatred and obsession coursing through every conversation and jealousy and a weird kind of like attention seeking and like dress pulling, you know, on the babysitter. Like, there's that, that interplay is still fresh. Whether they can sustain that for two seasons, I have my doubts. I feel like there actually might have to be a fairly messy breakup to keep this story fresh. But this is like a, that's a bigger idea that I wanted to ask you about in the first place, which is like, do we have to worry about succession staying fresh?

Because this episode, I think, is a good example of one way in which they have done it historically, which is by going on field trips. You know, this is the greatest field trip show of all time already, in my opinion, where every episode you're like, oh, we're Turnhaven or we're on this boat, or now we're out on this island with Josh. Do you have any concerns about kind of like keeping these relationships fresh, or do you think they have to be kind of constantly evolving? I think this is the question that we've asked about the characters to begin with this season, which is we want movement, we want evolution of character. And like there is a joy, juicy joy in watching these characters just be awful.

to each other and dig into each other. But if there isn't emotional growth, I get frustrated. Do you know what I mean? And so I do feel like I'm seeing some movement on Roman. And I do have to wonder, and I don't know, but I do have to wonder if Shiv, given how much in this episode she's set up to fail, it feels like to me,

if Shiv's not headed for some sort of rude awakening that is going to push her character in a certain direction. But I don't want to see them just like, circling each other like buzzards over the like corpse of their father for like a couple more seasons. And also like there's a possibility I was thinking about this. When you watch Logan collapse in this episode and this is, you know, a bunch of people wrote about this before the season started, would they kill off Logan Roy before the show is over? Would they do it at the end of a season three? I think they would. But let me just say this because it's been turning over.

in my head, you know, we are very much a part of the Succession Industrial Complex. We're very devoted to covering this show. We love this show. I think there's been a little bit of anxiety in some of the coverage thus far about. Kind of where is this going? That natural sort of season three malaise where you start to think like, let's get, is the end

in sight? Where do we? I don't have that relationship to this show personally. I am not, I don't have a predictive desire to know what happens. I think I'm so interested in the milieu and so attached to even if I'm repulsed by the characters. that I like the hang, you know,

and I think that the hang itself, inside of the hang, they wend all these interesting ideas about our culture and about our relationships to our family, that I'm not really too bent out of shape about what happens next in terms of who sees his power.

However, except the one exception is the one you just raised, which is basically like what happens to Logan, because he is simultaneously kingly and spectral throughout this whole show. When every character, I have a good friend of mine who's a little bit older than me,

and he exists amongst the circle of friends. And his name comes up a lot if he's not around. He's just a person that we like to talk about and not to talk badly about, but he's just a charismatic guy. He's got an interesting life. And we can't help but be like, what's going on with this guy?

Have you heard from him? What's going on in his life? I feel like Logan is that to this show. He's this fulcrum of drama of relationships. So if they took him out of the picture early, it would significantly change the dynamic of every character. It's interesting because I think Brian Cox said something about, it wasn't to me. It was like, they could kill me.

Like, because he was supposed to die in season one, right? The old Boyd Crowder, uh, conendroner. Oh, our beloved boy. Yeah, exactly. Imagine. You just swept me back to my justified memories. It's a deep love of mine. But like, imagine if they had killed Logan off, we would miss him. And that's what Brian Cox, he's like, they could.

And then like wolfishly smiles and says, but I think they'd miss me, right? Like, that's a perfect, of course. So, like, could they kill off Logan this season even or next season and still do succession without him? I think we'd miss him. I do. Look at you. Shaking like a fucking leaf. Listen, you have some leverage.

Just a little. So why don't you fuck off and think about what you want to ask for to come onside and I'll see what I can do? Okay. There's a detail that can. came up about Kendall. We find out that he's planning his 40th birthday, right? So he's 39. Did a little succession math. Roman says that Kendall's bachelor party was like 15 years ago. So that means he got married at 24, which is not, you know, an insane age to get married or whatever. But I was just wondering, like, does that inform, knowing that he's almost 40, knowing that he got that he married Rava at 24, does that change your idea at all or inform your

idea at all of who Kendall is. Okay, let's do some self-incrimination. You ready? Okay, I received a tweet over the weekend that said from someone who I don't know who I don't follow in the tweet said, is it just me or does Sean Fennacy look like Kendall Roy? Now, that is either insulting or a sweet note to receive. I don't know. Obviously, Kendall Roy is not a good person, but he's a compelling character. I am 39 years old turning 40 in less than six months, much like this guy. And I married my wife and I was 27. which is not 24, but is certainly close. And I'm just a raging ball of insecurity. So I don't know.

Maybe it does affect the fact that he tried to tap out too quickly. And now he's making up for a kind of lost time, Kendall. You know, he feels like he made early decisions to settle on something early on. And then maybe he's just trying to reverse engineer some of that. Do you think that that's like his psychology? I kind of feel like people who get married, I mean, I know people who got married at like 22 and are still happily married and I know people who got married in their 30s and are already divorced. So like it's, you know, it's catch as catch can. There's no, there's no rule for this.

But I have noticed that a lot of my friends who did get married kind of young were kind of trying to aggressively start their own family to sort of escape a family that they weren't happy with. You know what I mean? And I can really see Kendall coming out of this family with his relationship with his mom and all the sort of stuff like that and just being like, I'm going to start fresh with Rava and we're going to have, we're going to make our own family. And that is going to bring me happiness. That did not work out for Kendall. Also, please let me introduce my theory of the case. You're like a Kendall with like a with like a Greg Sprinkles, right? Because aren't you like the legy princeling of this podcast? I'm a bit legy. That's true. You know, so, you know. I don't want to be emotionally associated with either Greg or Kendall, but I think you're right and you're on to something. I mean, I actually, my wife and I, we got married, you know, fairly young, 27, but we waited a long time to start a family until this year.

So I think that, but I think that that's a very smart observation you've made about attempting to kind of like escape the, the hatch of Roydom and create a new portal, a new satellite experience. And, you know, because Kendall is a pretty damaged guy. You know, he's obviously had his struggles with addiction and he's got clearly this wellspring of anxiety kind of flowing through him at all times. Even in this episode, again, we see him looking longingly out of a window. And I mean, that's like, is that not the signature visual cue of this whole series, right?

Just him, you know, working through that speed racing mind of his trying to figure out what's the right play. He's always trying to figure out what's the right play. How do I handle my own depression? how do I handle my own sense of grandeur? You know, how do I make sure that my dad knows I did something that was really powerful? And, you know, I think he's also a person kind of ever questing for a sense of stability

from the people around him. You know, like, even think about that first conversation with Greg at the top of this episode. You know, like, I want to give you the freedom to go have that conversation. This is good. Don't betray me, but also, you know, I have to like seem cool here.

Otherwise, he'll flee from me. You know, there's something a little bit complicated. He doesn't know how to raise his son Greg either. Oh, I mean, I think we see the immediate fallout of him not buying that watch for Greg in this episode. He loses Greg, right? You called it. Well, I had also seen the episodes. That's true.

Forgot about that. You didn't predict anything. No, I predict nothing. But let's talk about the sturdy birdie that is Greg in this episode, ordering a Roman cook, which is strong, strong ferment. What time in the morning do you think it was? 11? Okay. 11 sounds right.

But maybe it was 7.30. Maybe it was a morning rum and Coke. I don't know. What's the earliest you had a rum and coke in your life? Oh, don't ask me. I went to college. Any time of day. It's a good time.

Rum used to be, anyway, we're off track. Okay. Obviously, I want to talk about Greg, but I don't know how to talk about Greg in this episode without talking about Tom. I'm going to hit my favorite. Bell that I like to ring all the time now, which is the matching wardrobe of Tom and Greg. They're wearing identical shirts and very, very similar ties in their big scene together.

This was a maybe old-timer. Greg and Tom, marriage of true minds scene. How did you feel about the Nero of it all? To start with the Greg, I thought this was arguably Greg's greatest episode, fairly low usage rate. but not a bad moment. Bain for your buck. Every line delivery is funny. Everything is amusing.

His jittery, stammery energy. I watch this show all the time with closed captioning on. In fact, as I get older, I watch most things with close captioning on. I really admire the writing of these shows and films, and I'm trying to better understand them by seeing them. It can be a little bit damaging for comedies because you tend to get the punchline before you get the delivery. I think of this show as a real true dromedy.

And with Greg, the close captioning is, so elegant with its ellipsis. You know, he's always halting and stopping and restarting and dropping like in front of a word that doesn't need it. And this was like a masterclass of him doing that. Tom and Greg is like, this is the torrid psychological romance of our time now. I mean, there is something. We talked about the Sam and Diane previously, but this is far deeper.

This is, you know, it's worthy of Roman mythology. I'd castrate you and marry you in a heartbeat. I mean, what a thing to just come. He just says it. Season 3, episode 4, he just says it. I don't want to come off like a simpleton or unenlightened by this. But do you think that there is, is it romance? Is it physical longing?

Is it just a kind of like psychological bond? Is it the need to dominate and be dominated? What is it that is binding Tom and Greg? And specifically Tom 2, Greg. At first, for a long time, I thought it was just psychological. that need to, Tom, who feels so, like, shit upon, needs someone to shit upon,

but, like, doesn't know how to do that without also them becoming emotionally attached. You know, if you want to talk about the many fathers of Greg, Tom is also another, like, father figure to him, right, in a way. Howevskis, however, when he gets really excited about them wrestling like chickens, I mean, I don't know how to divorce that from the physical realm. Do you know what I mean?

No, he wants to touch him. Yeah. He wants to be close to him. there is something really interesting going on here. Like, this is not, again, this show is not like other shows. This show is willing to try something to unnerve its audience. And kind of like, it is sort of mocking, but there's such a melancholy in Tom now. You know, he's such a wounded animal at this stage of the show that you, it feels wrong, actually, to kind of mock him.

I'm trying to, like, better understand him more deeply than I ever have since I've started watching the show. So I did a bit of research and I got deep into the prison blocks again. Oh, honey. You know, about toilet wine. And it turns out you can make it from fruit and ketchup, but you have to burp the wine bag as it ferments. And I thought, what if I forget to burp the toilet wine? I think that cold white wine speech, I've watched the episode three times now, me before. And by the third time, I kind of knew the cold white wine speech.

and I was like saying lines along with him. I think it's an iconic speech and an iconic delivery of a of a monologue. You know what I mean? And the kicker of what do I forget to burp the toilet wine? I mean, it's just like, and the earnestness of which he says it is just incredible stuff. But to your point about like he won't, now I'm seeing like, I had an English teacher in high school. You say three trees make a row as in like one. two, three things, then you have a pattern, right?

So I was just thinking about this, like, how much the Tom and Greg thing kind of does remind me of the Roman and Jerry thing because it's this, like, touching without touching, sort of like romance, but not romance sort of thing. And then I was thinking about Shiv's affair in season one and how a lot of their stuff was like, we could just jerk off next to each other or we could just do, you know. And so there's this, like, there is this thing to watch in succession of, like, Sex that isn't sex or like sex that doesn't require intimacy or sex that doesn't require, you know, because these kids are so, so terrified of intimacy. All that sort of stuff is like maybe a thing that the show must probably intentionally or maybe subconsciously be invested in.

What do you think? I think that's an interesting point. I think it's related to the concept of money too because they don't need money. They don't quest for money. This is not after money. And I think sex is kind of similar. They can buy sex if they want to. they're able to operate in circles

where they can seem appealing both men and women, two men and women. And there is a kind of like looseness with the transactional nature of sex, but they don't seem to be driven by a carnal desire. You know, the most, and the most

typically sort of voracious sexual character on the show has been Chauvin, you know, with her relationship with Nate and then with the actor. We've kind of seen her pursuant of sex more than any other character, which is a little bit of a subversion and you think in a world like this, all these guys are monsters and they're so sexually aggressive.

But they've all been kind of like psychologically neutered somehow. Yeah, I mean, when you think about Kendall, who had that like, you know, 24-hour sexual Odyssey affair with the actress last season, then there's Naomi and then there's Rava. And like the Rava thing is so interesting to me. I think that's why I went back to like when they got married at 24 is like, Kendall is, yeah, he's like a good looking guy with a shit a ton of money. he could have any woman he wants, probably. He's fixated on Rava.

And it's an emotional and psychological fixation more than anything else. And I can't tell if it's just like he's imprinted a sort of like mommy issue thing on her or if it's like a place where he feels like he failed and he needs to succeed or what's going on there. I just think all of that stuff is really interesting the way the show handles it. It also feels like there was a lot of show. and tell about Chavon and Tom kind of like desiring each other in the early seasons of the show

and their relationship is kind of devolved into this odd power play, power dynamic all the time. And so as much as this was a fun Tom and Greg episode and kind of sort of psychologically loaded in a lot of ways, the Chavon and Tom interactions

in this episode, I was just, I found depressing. You know, I felt sort of hard to watch through and through. Awful. I mean, the way in which Chavon is undercut, left, right, and center,

I find devastation. The worst of which I think has to do with the Frank and Carl at all. We can get to that. But like Tom coming to her in his hour of need where he's obviously like preoccupied with this prison question. He has been on the prison blogs. They do exist. I've looked at some of them.

And she just says, I don't know what to tell you. Devastating. I don't know. How do you feel? Yeah. It's it's, she's not just like on the boat in the end of season two. she's just kind of not willing to save him. And we just have to accept the fact

that they have a very odd marriage right now that does not seem like it's long for the world. If I had to guess, it's not that Logan is going to die anytime soon. It's that Chavon and Tom are not going to be able to work things out. I think Chavon is also having a hard time negotiating the new Chavon.

You know, she made this bold leap into, you know, super boss, and she was not ready for it. She was not ready for the kinds of political fractiousness that you have to expect. She was not ready for the dismissiveness that was going to meet a young woman or a child of nepotism or someone who comes from outside of this world.

She has all of these kind of factors that are not going in her favor. And she also just, she doesn't know how to do the job yet. And so it's like all of those things compounded together. You're like, this is kind of a grim state of affairs for Chavon.

And Kendall sums it up perfectly. He's like, she's a dipshit. She kind of, she's not, nobody's doing her any favors, but she's also kind of acting like a dipshit. He said she's a dipshit, no one respects her, but I was like, wouldn't that be how people might describe Kendall in season one also? That's true. And it really feels like only Roman is like on an intensive study program in all of this.

But like, the thing that infuriated me the most around the Chavon thing in this episode. Because, yeah, there are ways in which she could handle so many things better. I'm not saying she's perfect, all that sort of stuff. She wants to run when she should walk in a lot of ways. when Logan asks her to keep an eye on Carl and Frank and then she keeps an eye on Carl and Frank and then Logan chews her out for doing exactly that and backs those guys.

That made me so furious when she was just doing exactly what he asked her to do. And maybe she didn't do it with enough finesse. Maybe all of that's true. And Logan says to her, everything's moving always, you know, like that's true. But quick aside,

The detail that Frank and Carl were, like, eating their lunch together is one of my favorite details of this whole entire episode. There was just something, like, you could have just had those guys in the office. But to have them on their lunch break, to have Carl wiping dressing off a contract or whatever it was he was doing, it was just a beautiful, beautiful detailed touch that I just really love. We all have our work lunch buddies, right? The people that we like to just go walk to chopped with, you know, get my Southwestern chick and see. salad, you know, just sit there, make a little mess of myself, but they've seen it before, so there's no shame. I get it, you know, and that happens even for CFOs and senior advisors

at major publicly traded companies. It happens. You know, you've got to have your lunch pal. It was just really humanizing in that moment. I just really loved it. And this idea of, like, her interrupting them and they're like repast. I just like, it really cracked me up. Should we talk about Connor? You know, I'll be honest with you. I was at a movie last night and I got home late, so I didn't watch Succession on my normal 6 p.m. West Coast viewing schedule. And so I watched it a little bit late. And I'm trying to get ready for the workday the next day. And I was like half watching it the first time. And I woke up early this morning to watch the second time. And then the second time I watched at the Conner scene, I think might have been my favorite scene in the whole episode. Tell me why. Well, one, Rock, obviously, just tremendous actor. Two, I think seeing someone who seems like such a out-to-lunch daydreamer have a throw-down. Here's my leverage moment. I just found very entertaining. I thought that was a very well-written scene. And it was probably the ultimate, I thought, in the undermining Shiv, the sort of the older brother who's like, I just don't want to deal with you.

And that's a kind of a relatable moment. Even Connor. Even Connor, the first pancake. And Connor, who historically on the show has had Chivon's back, is like, I'm going over your head. Says everything you need to say. I think also, you know, the idea that Connor, while a bit in a bubble for the bulk of his life and never really faced with any hardship of any kind,

has a keen sense both in the Sophie's Room episode and in this episode of like what it really means to have worked and to have been a part of Waystar Royco for 25 years and how racist and dangerous and violent what kind of havoc this company wrought upon the world. He's now been a mouthpiece for that a few times. And I can see some of this is like a blowback from the way that his father treated him on the yacht

and the way that he has been treating him over the years. And he's kind of tipping back against them, not as much as Kendall, but staying within the family and outside the family at the same time, which seems to have been his superpower for the last 20 years. That's fascinating. I'm curious to see, like, honestly, this is not, I don't know. This is not a fake question.

This is a real question. I'm really curious to see if they would go there with like a full Connor Roy presidential campaign. And I was convinced, that Connor was going to win that this was going to be a presidential election season and that Connor would win the season. But I'd be very curious to see how that would work out.

Who was the presidential nominee? Was it Tom Steyer? Like, are we meant to believe that Connor is like a Tom Steyer type? You know, like an extraordinarily wealthy man? Or like Howard Schultz? You know, like who is he really... Who is he meant to be like? Because I don't think Steyer or Schultz

were ever really taken terribly seriously as candidates. and Connor himself even seems to be throwing in the towel to Shiv. You know, he's like, it looks like the reason's going to win. But he's saying like, but I want to run in four years. So I want to build up my resume sort of thing. But like, I don't know, the sion of wealth aspect to it, I mean, I hate to. It's the obvious comparison. But it just like puts me back in the Trump mindset of like, what if one of the Trump kids runs?

You know what I mean sort of thing? What about running Gormando? Do you think that would bolster his resume? What I watch? What I watch is wine tasting show. Fos show. For sure, 100%. I've watched that Matthew Reese wine tasting show.

Oh, sure. Is it Matthew Reese and Matthew Good? Yeah, it's the two men. Tasting wine. Spitting Rioja and facts around the world. All right, I want to talk about my favorite plot line. And again, I'm mad again that Chris and Andy touched on this because I was like, they almost got to the end of the episode without doing it.

And I was like, oh, we're going to talk about this. It's Jess and the rabbit cam. Yeah. Big, big fan of Jess and the rabbit cam. Kendall's last instructions to Jess as he boards the helicopters, like, make sure the rabbit is water. This is just the perfect, like, absente, absentee, absentee, parent, divorced dad move to get a rabbit and just stream it via your assistant to your kids. Yeah. So what is it called when?

character. These characters aren't being fridged necessarily, but they've been fully sidelined to a kind of digital existence. You know, Kendall's children are, we hear the name Iverson in this episode and we know that they've made a phone call to a rabbit, but otherwise

they're nowhere to be seen anymore. They're off the show. But also lamshading the fact that they just, you know, vanished the kids because they keep sort of mentioning it. And so I I respect that they're like, let's at least make a thing of it if we're going to disappear these kids. Let's at least make it part of the joke that Kendall's a bad dad.

But Kendall getting the news on the phone that Josh has a sick daughter and the camera's not on him at all. It just zooms in through the window to Jess on the rabbit cam is like one of my, it's my favorite shot of the episode. I loved that moment because it's always interesting to think about where the camera's not on this show. Do you know what I mean? Interesting. Yeah, Jess has a big responsibility. She has to constant. look attentive, but also dismayed, but also competent, all at the same time. She's her own rabbit in a way. Do you know what I mean?

Yes. High energy. And we should shout out. This is a second week in a row we've seen Logan's assistant Carrie. She of the very memorable bangs. She's coming up in the world. Yeah. Carrie got to listen to the president, you know, lose his temper.

So not many of us can say that. Okay. Anything else we want to talk about in this episode? Well, I was trying to think, like, is there actually like a theme to this episode? I feel like it's maybe just about like old versus new money, you know? And that feels like that's going to be a consistent refrain. We see next episode. The furnaces, I guess, are making themselves known.

And there is a new. Yeah, there's new and old. And we've got the shareholder meat coming up. And, you know, what does it mean to have once been powerful and can you ever be felled? And literally, Logan, false down. at the end of this episode. So I don't know. I mean, once again, I sound like a little bit of a broken record,

but I'm not dismayed by the hamster wheel or the rabbit wheel, as it were, aspect of this show right now. I'm kind of loving that it's taking its time because I think every episode is so meticulously written. Ben Travers at Indywhere had this really interesting read on the title of the episode, The Line in the Meadow. He was, you know, looking into this children's story, which is not one that I grew up with. I don't know if you grew up with them. Yeah, but the theme of the story, And this is one of my favorite HBO prestige things to do is like, what does the title mean?

Westworld is just like a feast when it comes to like, what does this title mean? But the story ultimately ends up being sort of about the stories we tell. Was there a line in the meadow? Is that real? Like all that sort of stuff. And so thinking about like the stories we tell, the story Logan tells about his son, Kendall's fear of believing it but desire to believe it, the massive fabrication that Josh has created here where every word and movement from Josh

has calculated to provoke something. The story of Nero and Spores, you know what I mean? Like the story of the tattoo brothers and what does that mean? Like all the sort of stuff, these stories we tell, there's always like layers of things going on in succession, but I think this is a particularly one that's interested in this idea of like,

fabrication and myth-making. It's taking all the power in the world to not watch ahead and watch the screeners, but I'm not doing it. I'm holding strong, Joanna. I've got to tell you. You think I'm like, no, but you're thinking about these beautiful pairings on this show and how they'll be broken apart and put back together. And I want to know. I want to know what's that going to happen next. I don't care about what happens, but I care about what happens. It's the real conflict of the show. I almost forgot to tell you my carrot fact before we go. What is a carrot fact? So Kendall mentions that Iverson, they got a,

an enormous rabbit, and so Iverson is looking for, like, the world's biggest carrot to get this rabbit. Did you know? And I'm so excited to tell you this because you're a film guy. Did you know that rabbits don't actually eat carrots? What? It's true. This is where this all comes from. You've seen the film, it happened one night with Clark Gable, right?

Of course. Absolute favorite. Incredible, incredible film. You know how he's, like, eating carrots and, like, fast talking and all sorts of stuff like that. So Bugs Bunny was modeled on Clark Gable in an... happened one night. And because there's this whole carrot eating scene in that film, they had Bugs Bunny eat carrots as like a Clark Gable joke. And then it just sort of worked its way into the consciousness that rabbits are fond of carrots, but it's not true. What do carrots or what do rabbits eat?

Like pot tarts or? Lettarts. Okay. Lettuce. Okay. Well, good to know. It's not carrots. I mean, I just found this out this year. So it blew my mind. Also, the fact that carrots help you see well at night, that is. propaganda made up by the British intelligentsia to confound the Nazis. You can Google that as well. So those are my two carrot facts. You are a waterfall of trivia on this episode. I only have two carrot facts and those are they. All right. Should we speaking of hues of orange? Should we go to Adrian Brody wrapped up in layers of orange and blue? That sounds good. Let's do it. Let's do it. All right.

I mean, you want your dad to go to jail? Well, I, that's not for me to say. I mean, kind of is, though. Like if you were a judge, you'd want him to go to prison? I believe the traditional whistleblowing process would be subverted. So that's why... Mr. Logan, the reputational hit, I mean, optically, maybe you become a punchline. One of those big guys who aren't coming back.

When is this gonna end? I'm here in separate planes. I got to say, I don't like betting on blood fumes. I know that you are interested in fashion and style. And I know that the succession creators are very interested in costuming in the show. So what can you tell me about the many layers of Josh Aronson? The actual layers or the... Both. I want to get to both, but let's start with clothing.

Okay. You know, it's funny. I always There isn't It's a really one You know Wardrobe costume is a really Wonderful way to Sometimes subtly and sometimes more

overtly Indicate Personality and Characteristics of the person you're portraying and I you know I Had quite a lot of discussions With Jesse

Armstrong and the writers and in defining who Josh was. And it was a kind of collaborative place at the end. I mean, I know some people that I really wanted to reference. And part of it is their wonderful writing and imagination and a bit of my own imagination. And, you know, he's someone who is conscious about the environment. He has a youthful enthusiasm and he's not old money.

He's earned this, I think, is much more connected with the world around him at the moment. You know, whether he's cunning and tries to out gangster these sharks, then, you know, that's a whole other aspect of his personality. but he's someone who genuinely is present. And I feel like the layering of the clothing is indicates his preparedness for his environs and the world around him. And, you know, he makes sure he gets on his proper hiking boots, but he knows he's taking them all out

and they're coming for a business meeting and he knows they're going to be shuffling around in leather sold loafers or shoes or whatever they came to the meeting in. And that gives him an advantage. And then, you know, I've spent a lot of time in the outdoors. And layers are very important because you have to be prepared for inclement weather. It may be too warm. You need to take a layer off.

You don't want to work up a sweat. You know, there are all these things that are necessary. and and and and it was I mean the weather was unpredictable and and we knew that the weather the weather would be unpredictable where we were shooting way out in Montauk and it was freezing cold at times and baking hot at the other times and I'm I've been doing this a long time so I infuse all of my own sense of preparedness for myself and character and and the parallels and my own appreciation for nature and nature and healthy respect for nature. And, you know, I threw that all into the mix. And

they were very receptive of that. I love that. I'm so interested about this collaborative process. Can you tell me sort of where the role was when it was first brought to you and what you felt in particular, which direction you wanted to push it in? Yeah, sure. I mean, they had some wonderful, wonderful elements. I think there was an edge that I was looking for that was a quality that it had an, it had an, it had an edge, but it didn't quite have this thing that I was looking for. And we kind of went back and forth and had these conversations. And this was quite a while ago. And, you know, I don't remember the anecdotes I may have shared or certain things, but they came, wow, they came back with.

a whopper and I was so excited and and you know I just congratulated Jesse Armstrong again on the season and how wonderful it's going and and I you know I thanked him again for for being so open and he he was they were so great and they were enthusiastic about it and supportive of you know bringing elements that felt more truthful to it. But they, interestingly, they had the environmental, they planted the seeds because they had an element of Josh being into foraging. And I think that's a really funny bit. And we, we didn't have time to do everything because we added a bunch of other things that I think trumped that. But it was a really interesting aspect of him. Yeah. It's so interesting that you describe him as Sharky. I, I

I had a question for you that you've kind of already answered about, like, how intentionally discombobulating was this hike that he took them on? Do you know, like, how intentionally is he dragging it out and putting them on the back foot? I think, yeah. I mean, I think that was mostly premeditated. I mean, I think, you know, I don't truly believe that the man that I was playing was genuinely lost. And I think it was, you know, I think one thing that they that they all have in common is a sense of smelling out weakness and opportunity and defensive skills as well. And some are necessary in business. You know, you don't want to be invested in something that's falling.

and you need to protect those investments. And you know, there's a ruthlessness that comes with that, that world. And when you see weakness, you also go after it. And I think that it was rife for that kind of communication. And so really, it was just about dismantling any facade of niceties that that was pretty apparent was being put on. And, you know, really digging into the crux of the, you know, father, son issues. Yeah, I was just, it's interesting that you mentioned this sort of, because one of the big moves,

one of the more obvious big moves he makes is making them come to him with this fabricated story about a sick child, right? And it's interesting, I was reading the great GQ profile of you that just came out also a hiking story. But you were talking about this house that you took a long time and put a lot of effort into building. And I'm wondering sort of what thoughts you had about this idea of bringing someone out, you know, of Josh bringing these guys out to this castle he's made for himself out here. What does that psychologically mean? Well, I don't ever, no one will ever come visit me. I'm far less powerful than Josh.

And my place is way too far. That's part of why I got it. But no one ever comes to visit. And I don't, I don't need to invite people to do that. I mean, I think it was, it was definitely a calculated move on his part. And a, I think maybe his daughter wasn't feeling great. And I think there is a genuine love for his, his daughter and

you know for children I think that I don't think any of that is a fabricated thing it's not something that was focused upon in the storytelling but it but it it definitely was an excuse

and I feel like I I try to reveal the excuse in an effort to gauge their response to that as well and kind of know let them know that I'm holding the cards and I appreciate you coming out.

I just didn't feel like coming into the city or something like that at the end of the day. But yeah, he's partially, he's built it and he's retained it for several reasons, but one of those is it's effective to show that he's made it. Kendall, of course, seems to think that, or his read on this is that Logan's pretty targeted anti-Semitic digs are, you know, part of what might have

ticks Josh off and all of this. There's so much performance going on from everyone in these scenes. But I'm wondering, like, for you, how do you feel like Josh is absorbing that element of it? I feel that unfortunately that there's an undercurrent of anti-Semitism that is pervasive in our society. and in any socioeconomic background. And there is bigotry and there's racism. And that is one of the things that ails are a great nation. And the rest of the world, for that matter,

is that stereotypes and built-in resentments for other cultures exists. And I think it doesn't feel good, but it's not so unusual, unfortunately. And I think it reveals an element of Logan's sentiment and his personality. But the cards are laid out. It's a comment or no comment. It's not going to have any bearing on how Josh will infiltrate or, you know, retain a position of strength of Waste,

waystark. You know, I think what it comes down to is I know what I'm dealing with here. And fair enough. And, you know, it is an unfortunate part of life, right? I'm interested, you know, in your personal experience with your, you've mentioned elsewhere that you know billionaire hotshots is the phrase you use, like Josh. And so you didn't have to do any major research.

You've done your research via your life experience. That's true. I mean, it's not that I ended up to do research, but I had a plethora of really amazing character traits to draw from that were wonderful, that are both positive and negative. And I said, wow, this is this is fortuitous. What in your personal experience do you feel like you've unlocked about that psychology that maybe other people don't really understand about if they haven't had direct exposure to those types of people? Well, it's not everybody.

I mean, like I said, I do know quite a few people who are quite successful in various fields. And some are remarkable philanthropists and families. and are content and others are struggling a bit more with finding their way. And what's so shocking is to see somebody who just really achieved so much, not just the enormous wealth, which goes beyond financial security

and any expectation of financial security. It's just that it doesn't quench the problem. You know, there's that old joke is what do the rich and the poor both have in common? Neither have enough money. And, you know, it's a sad thing when, you know, you can't shake the desire. And it's a good lesson for us all. My last question for you, and hopefully it's not too boring of a question, but Succession, I think, is, my favorite scenes are these smaller scenes between two or three people.

I think that the writing is so sharp that that's really where it shines. But this is also a show that was shot with COVID concerns in mind. And so I'm wondering from your perspective, how did COVID impact the shaping of an episode like this, which feels almost like a siloed bottle episode for these characters or any other work that you did on the series? I couldn't say, bottom line, if this was structured due to limit the scope of it. I think it is an intimate moment and, you know, takes up quite a bit of the structure of the episode. And it is, Josh is kind of like the referee. And he's like, he's like, he's kind of like the bull.

fighter or something like he's sticking them he's a he's a the uh the uh the picka door and he pokes one and sees what happens and he pokes the other and and it's like you know but then he's standing in the middle of the ring and saying come come at me you know and and uh it's really fun and um i love i i agree with you i feel like the writing is so nuanced and textured and then they're such great actors uh every one of them uh And, you know, I just, it's fun to have a dynamic with multiple people involved, but it is more personal when you get to, you know, witness their reaction. I think also this is the first time that Logan and Kendall have been forced to meet physically. And so that too is very exciting.

And it's Josh's doing to get them to face each other and to. to be the first one getting a close look at their faces, which is awfully fun. Yeah, I do love that when he leaves the room, at least the first time, that they just don't talk to each other at all. Yeah, but he's never really left the room. That's what I love. It's like he leaves the room, but he's keyed into all of it. He's intentionally leaving here and there.

I think it's so great. It was delicious. I mean, and they're such sharks. Like, they are such sharks. So they're incredible actors, and they're so deep into their characters. And here I come along and I'm like, all right, here I go. I'm jumping in with you, boys. You know, there's blood in the water.

And just was so much fun. That's really what I crave to do. Find opportunities like this. I'm such a fan of the show. It's just great. Yeah. Thank you so much for the chat. I really love this episode.

I love rewatching it. knowing that Stewie was waiting in the wings, like literally. So, yeah, great, great episode. Thanks so much for the chat. I appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. That does it for us this week for Deep Diet Wednesdays.

I think it's, I think the branding's sticking. Dun, dun, done. Come back on Friday for the preview episode with Chris Ryan and was on this feed. Thanks as ever to our intrepid producer, Steve Allman, Beatles fan, Steve Allman. And we will be back next. Wednesday with the shareholders meeting. Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil,

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