The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 3 Episode 5, With J. Smith-Cameron

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

Sean and Joanna are back to talk about the latest episode of 'Succession,' "Retired Janitors of Idaho." They discuss the fallout of the shareholder meeting and the deal that is made to keep the Roys in power. Later, Joanna is joined by actor J. Smith-Cameron to talk about Gerri's ride this season and what is going on in her head (55:43). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Joanna Robinson Guest: J. Smith-Cameron Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills starting at $179, like the next grill three-burner gas grill. Or get $50 off a select Weber Spirit grill and bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together. Shop spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot. Now through May 6th, Exclusion supplies to homedipo.com slash price match for details. I'm Sean Fennessee, and this is the Prestige TV podcast. Today we are recapping Succession Season 3, Episode 5, Retired Janitors of Idaho. It's written by Tony Roche and Susan Sun He Stanton and directed by Kevin Bray.

And joining me to talk about this episode is my belligerent zucchini in podcasting. Joanna Robinson, hello. Hello, I have a quick question for you. How much bagel is too much bagel to feed a rabbit? I think we've learned even one tiny morsel of bagel is too much bagel. Let's go around in a circle of this. this roundtable conversation about Succession this week. This was the shareholder meet.

That was the big sesh that we need to break down. Not exactly played out the way that I expected. This was a much punchier, zippier, Marks Brothers-esque episode of Succession. What did you think of this one? Did you enjoy yourself? I did. I had a really good time.

It's so interesting because I wasn't aware. I was tooling around Reddit yesterday to see sort of how like the, the real succession heads felt about this episode. What do we call them? The successors? The Royals? Oh, that's good.

Well, we'll workshop it. This is why you're you. I didn't even prompt you on that. And you were just like, I got it at the Royals, boom. But I did not know, I think because I watched all seven episodes that they sent the press at once, what you avoid then is building them. expectations of certain things, right? Because you're just like watching it all together.

But if you keep hearing shareholder meeting, shareholder meeting, shareholder meeting, maybe you're like building up an expectation of something. And from what I could glean from the Redditors, you know, they were expecting something. They thought this was going to be sort of the red wedding of succession. Yes. Yes. When instead what happened is really nothing much has changed power wise anywhere, right, at the end of the day. And I don't have a complaint about that.

I liked the sort of farcical doors and sardines of it all. I was I was pretty into it. Before we get further into our analysis, you've been having terrific conversations with cast members from this show thus far this season. Did you have one of those this week? I'm always tempted to say this character's name and the style of a certain, like, 90s, daytime talk show host. So it's Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. Jay Smith Cameron's here.

Yeah, I love her. I love her too. This is a very fun week for her. She's going through a lot this season as she attempts to claim some modicum of power as the interim CEO. How do you think she's faring right now? What I love about Jerry is how careful, how she thinks through every step all the time. You know, there was some chatter about how when she popped on stage, she went to the video really quickly and got off the stage. And I was like, oh, she, you know, she whisked out. She went to the video.

Is that better or worse than Frank having to stand up there and vamp dryly for? And I don't know how long Frank was up there, honestly. But my favorite sort of calculated move, obviously the interaction with Roman is always of paramount interest to us. But this idea of her putting Roman on the phone with the president, which we'll all get to you, but like is not just a throw your favorite kid a bone, but also a classic jury move of having to side step a sticky situation. She's like, I don't not, oh, oh, sure, it could be me, but what if it's not me? My favorite example of that is the hunting episode in season two when she and I think it was

Carl were trying to get Tom to do something. And they're like, oh, sure, sure. It could be us. Could be us. But maybe you? Maybe it should be you. Who does it? you know, I love, I love anytime they're just sort of like slide something off their plate.

And I think Jerry is sort of queen slider and all of that. You've located the active maneuvering. Maneuvering is probably the signature verb, the signature action in this whole show. This episode, perhaps more than any other, between the vamping, the dodging, the ducking, the evading. There's a lot of non-commitment to action here with the rare exception of a couple of figures in this episode. So this episode is basically unlike the last few, which have been kind of divided into three or four or five strands, effectively has two strands. There is the Kendall Roy sitting on the sidelines, but operating as the quote unquote puppet master of what will transpire.

I guess you could say there's a small third strand of the furnaces, the Sandy and Sandy and Stewie team, but whenever we see them, it's pretty much with the main thrust of this episode, which is essentially what is happening behind the curtain at the shareholders' meeting. The shareholders meeting is happening. You'd think that that is where the throwdown is. But really, it's, I guess this is a lobby meeting room, some absent floor in the hall where they're meeting. And all of those suited executives that you referred to,

Carl and Frank and Jerry are surrounded by the Roy clan. And again, it's a field trip. Every episode of the show is a field trip. They go to a place. There's no home base on the show. I'm going to point this out. every time they do this. They've once again done this.

But I thought of you, when they talked about taking away the private jet, by the way, it, like, makes me physically ill to hear a private jet referred to as a PJ, because that just, like, that just indicates a casual, like, a casual, like, a casual, like, use of it that, that just creeps me out. Have you ever been on a PJ? I've never been on a PJ. I haven't, no. Okay.

But I've been on a CP, a charter plane? Is that what do you? Anyway. Okay, sure. I've been on one of those. Yeah, yeah. That's not as fancy. No, no, no.

They're usually like death traps. But sometimes. But when they were talking about taking me the private jets, and I just remember the conversation we had where we were like, maybe the private jet is their actual home base. And then I was like, oh, so this does matter to them. It matters too much to them, Roman saying, like, first they came from my private jets and I said nothing or whatever, like whatever.

But yeah, it's interesting that you called it backstage that sort of solidified something for me. Can I go down a potentially dry theater avenue really quickly? Yeah, I love a dry avenue. Absolutely. I said Doors and Sardines. Have you ever seen noises off? I certainly have. Yeah, Peter Bogdanovich, one of my favorite filmmakers ever.

Not one of my favorites of his films, just putting that out there. Sure. No, not a tremendous film. It's a great play. I've seen it, and then I was in it in high school. And Doors and Sardines is sort of like the whole, oh, you've got it right. You pull, like, within arms of reach. I pulled it right off the show.

Hold it right off the shelf. A good Michael Cain performance, I think. But I want a great Christopher Reeve, like, comedy. I think it's his last before his accident, as I recall. Is it? Oh, so good in that. But that's a classic farce. And the way that that play and the film work, well, the play more than the film is, like,

the first act is you're on stage watching these actors trying to rehearse a show that involves a lot of, like, in and out of doors and, you know, farcical slapstick. The second act is backstage. You're backstage with them. You already know what the play is, though, so you're watching them grapple with everything going wrong on stage. And then by the third act, you really know it. So when everything goes wrong on this, you know.

So the set usually rotates, if you see it in the theater. And so I love this idea of this being like the second act noises off. Their backstage, like their stage is sending Frank out, sending Carl out. Oh my God, Kendall's here. that's unscripted. He's not supposed to be on stage, like all that sort of stuff. A real, a real noises off five. Maybe that's why I loved it so much. So one thing that I have been enjoying about doing this every week with you is it forces me to watch the show twice. Now, I normally would not watch the show a second time. Sometimes the second watch is

deeply rewarding on a, you know, a personal viewing level. Sometimes it's just work a day. Let's make sure we got all these quotes correct as we have this conversation on the show. This one in particular, I thought was loaded with foreshadowing and insinuation about what is to come. And I completely missed it. Maybe because the first time I watched it, you know, it's the witching hour with my baby. I'm trying to get her to chill out. I'm maybe not totally focused. I'm not looking at the close captioning the way I need to.

Second time around, though, from the very earliest moments, we watched Logan literally being bootstrapped in by Colin. And we see this exchange with he and Kerry, and we learn about the UTI very early on. And we hear about the pills. We see the pills slide into the jacket pocket. I think I just completely missed that the first time. And this was all avoidable. There is a complete alternative history

about how this day plays out if a couple of things go differently here. Did you pick up on that? Did you sense that they were kind of like teasing us out for where we were going at the end of the hour? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that that only became clear on my second watch as well.

I'm sure I wasn't like, oh, those pills, obviously. Well, I mean, nothing on succession is accidental. And like, you could even say that this is seated further forward. We've been talking about it all season. Like last week, of course, his stumble on the hiking trail, but also from the very first episode

when he's like, I can't get the shits or else we're screwed, right? And like, I in my having seen this episode made have put my foot on the gas a little bit to like call that moment out. But like that idea of like his physical health is paramount holding this whole thing together. It feels twinned with the first season.

The first season, it was very much the same, obviously. You know, he falls ill in that first season. And a lot of that whole first season in hindsight is about building Logan Roy back up to his strength. And there's something, something is wrong. Something is wrong with Logan in a very profound way. And that is the, that to me is the biggest takeaway from this episode is that he is not likely to improve physically as his life goes on at this point. And we have to think about what that means for all of the characters on this show. And to me, what the person who jumps out most specifically is Shiv.

And Shiv's relationship to Logan throughout season three has been deeply fraught and fascinating the way they're drawing it so far. Where do we find Shiv in this episode? Because she is really a driving force. It's frustrating because, you know, you and I talked about this a little bit before the season started. Our beloved overlord Bill Simmons has his idea about like Shiv's, you know, competence in the role. He was sort of banging the drum earlier about, like, is Shiv actually good at her job? And then, like, within this season, people feel free to call her out as, like, a dip shit or a fake or whatever. You know, all of her brothers are ready to, like, they're in.

And there's nothing really we can point to. Like, I don't think what happened with Carl and Frank last week is her fault, but that it's weak management that, you know, they felt like they could go rat her out to her dad or go over her head or something like that. But in this episode, with it should be said and assist from Kendall, like she gets the job done. Like she and Kendall together, I think, that's how I would assess it, close the deal, a deal that they desperately needed. And of course, Logan can't stand that. And of course, he's going to try to make her feel, because there's no winning with Logan, because he wants you to be independent until you're too independent and then he's going to smack you down. That was my takeaway, too. Yes, that basically he has, he entrusts you with power until it becomes clear that you have power and then he takes the power away from you.

He also is like a spoiled child. He's just like his children. Well, yeah, and that becomes especially evident in this episode as he becomes childlike in his illness, you know, and everything with a cat and all of that. Just shout out to Colin's commitment to the bit because when he takes the bag with the cat and the non-existent cat and runs with it, like he keeps running. Like well out of like Logan's eye line, he keeps running. Colin's like, I have a job. That's a Marks Brothers moment. You know, that's why I cite that.

So I'm kind of jumping ahead here, but I'm very curious for your very specific take on this. Did Shiv make a good deal for this family by the end of this episode? I think she made the deal that they needed in this moment. And what I'm really happy for is that she made a little deal for herself while she was doing it. Yes. And I'm proud of her for that. That quiet little moment, an almost unspoken moment between Sandy and Shiv. It feels very meaningful to me.

And it was at that moment that I was like, oh, this is what I hope Davis is on the show. Is this laying track for the next three years of this show? I would love that. I would love that. If Hope shows up as much, if not more than Stewie, like that, you know, if Sandy shows up as much, if not more than Stewie, or if I'm always, like, it's never enough Stewie for me personally. And also, yeah, go ahead. He's brilliant.

And I wonder if he is a little bit like Tabasco sauce. A little bit goes a long way. That might be true. I do need to shout out a great, fun little dig at my former bosses at Vanity Fair when he's like, made you fun of Kendall. Yeah. I have it on good authority that the folks of Vanity Fair loved that line, so they're not offended. But it was a fun little, like, poke at the Woker era of Vanity Fair under my old boss, Radeca Jones,

who's the best, and I love the direction that Vanity Fair went in the last couple years. But it's the perfect publication. It's just how media savvy this show is. You could absolutely see the Kendall Roy tell-all, you know, 3,000-word feature running on Vanity Fair. That was pitch perfect from Stewie. Well, I wanted to ask you a quick question about Hope, though, if that's okay. Yeah, of course.

I want to ask you about the guest stars in this season, because this is something I'm noodling over as we get closer to you having seen all the episodes that I've seen. Like, we knew that Adrian Brody was in this season. knew Alexander Satter's Guard was in the season. We knew Hope Davis was in this season. Adrian Brody, I sent you this photo in Slack, and I've heard some other TV critics talk about this, so I don't feel like I'm betraying any major secrets. But when I was set a cut of this episode, the crowd scene where you see Adrian Brody, like two rows back, the VFX shot wasn't done.

So it was very clear that he had been pasted over into the scene, which if you listened to our chat with Adrian Brody last week is why I asked him about COVID, because I was sort of hoping he would say, Well, in one day they just had me sit in a chair and lit me so that they could copy paste me into a crowd scene. But he didn't say that. And I didn't feel like I could ask him about that. But if Adrian Brody winds up just being kind of like a one-episode character, Hope Davis has been here and there. And Alexander Starzgard hasn't even arrived yet. Versus last season when Holly Hunter felt like she was folded into the cast for the season or Cherry Jones, even though she was in it less, like felt like she was folded in.

these feel like a little different. I have to wonder if it's like COVID, you know, dependent it might be, but how does it feel to you? The use of guest stars this season versus last. I think you're right that it is a little bit more like the love boat where it's sort of like somebody comes in for one crazy story and then they get pulled right out of it. And there are some downsides to that.

That being said, what it makes me realize about the show, and I think this is really the first time that a serialized, prestige drama has ever been this good at this thing. This is a show that lets every character get one lick, one moment in every episode. I've never seen the ball movement that the easily dispersed assists all throughout an episode. Greg gets a shot. Frank gets a shot. We see Frank and Carl were added to the full cast this year. And they feel vital. Hugo is in the cast. And he feels like Carolina has not left. In fact, Jess has a bigger role this year than she had last year. Carrie has a bigger role than they had last year.

This is kind of amazing that they're able to basically invite Academy Award winners onto the show to do 35 minutes of work and then say goodbye to them, not really at the expense of the rest of the growing cast. If you think about Mad Men, you think about Breaking Bad, I guess there's a case for Game of Thrones here, but I don't think Game of Thrones wielded guest stars quite the way that this show is right now. No, and when it did, it felt stunty, I think.

like Ian McShane shows up for an episode or... That was so disappointing that episode for me. I don't want to get you on a Thrones jag, but I love Deadwood so much and that didn't live up. No, I think it was always a mistake when they brought... Those people, like, sort of stood... And that's how I feel about, like, a one-episode guest star in a way that I don't feel about Holly Hunter or Cherry Jones last season.

You want them to be built into the show? I don't mind there being an Adrian Brody episode of Succession. It was a great episode, a great piece of work for a great. great actor. But I think I preferred last season when it felt like, and it just reminded me of like, I go back to this all the time, but the, um, the like, FX dramas of like 10 to 8 years ago or whatever when there would be like a new big bad this season, you know what I mean? And damages.

Yeah. Yeah. And justified and Sons of Anarchy and whatever. And like, who's here this season to show off all season and just, you know, shoot, mix it up. Margo Martindale's undefeated in that role, by the way. Perfect. A perfect season of television, justified season two.

So, yeah, so I think I kind of prefer it the other way. But again, like, if this has something to do with COVID, I can't begrudge it. And obviously, like, it's been well used. Also, quick point about last week's episode, we got so many people tweet at us that Adrian Brody was reading Crime and Punishment, the Vintage Classics Edition. I can only say in my defense I looked at my copy of crime and punishment I'm a Sigmic classics person

but thank you everyone for your photos of your copies of crime and punishment I really I got a kick out of it. Have you got any questions about this week's episode that you want to crowdsource with the community listening to the show? Thanks to everybody listening to this show by the way. Holy shit. A lot of people are listening and I really appreciate that.

Where's Willa? That's my question. Speaking of letting everyone get a lick, I have overlooked Willa. Where is she? I don't know. She's added to the cast and I was, you know, hoping that Justin Luke would have more to do.

Maybe she's back to the drawing board and, you know, doing draft two on, what is the name of her play? Does it have a name? Sands, I think. Sands. Yeah. Sands too. Sander. Hopefully she's revising her work or maybe taking it back to off off Broadway where really all started for her.

Let's go back to this episode. Yeah. In addition to Logan's Pills and Carrie's role and Collins' role in this episode, we also see very early on when Schiff comes into the room. that Logan begins to bristle at her even before she makes the deal, that uh-huh that he gives her at the beginning of the episode, also on Second Watch. I was like, okay, there's something really brewing between these two that they don't like. And we also see that Logan, it seems like, almost sort of has a death wish here.

You know, he really wants to win the macho fight with Sandy at potentially the expense of his own company. Now, we will say, I've talked to a couple of friends who have more experience in this realm of corporate power management. And those friends have said, this was not one of their favorite episodes because it seemed highly unrealistic that someone in Logan's position would really ever lose control of their company. I don't think I know enough to say that that seems unrealistic. But the way that the show positions things, it sure seems like they're on a knife's edge there for the first 30 minutes, right? Yeah. And something that they point out is that this is a deal that should have been done so long ago. that like when Frank and Carl will take you their lunch breaks,

that's when this deal should have been ironed out, not in the hotel, in the Hyatt or wherever they were, you know, while the clock is ticking on everything. So I just think that, yeah, it's interesting, though. It's interesting to hear from your friends in that arena that they didn't like the episode because I've certainly watched plenty of episodes, like, you know, that's central on journalism, let's say, that are highly unrealistic, but I can still enjoy them,

even if I'm like, this person doesn't know what they're talking about in terms of journalism. Yes. Suspension of disbelief, despite your experience, is an essential part of this sort of thing. My dad's a doctor. My mom's an RN. And I, you know, when watching ER with them as a kid, they would just like constant monologue of like everything that was wrong about, you know, that show, stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, you can imagine what it's like to watch NYPD Blue with my father, who was a police officer.

Just not ideal. Not a huge fan of the procedural aspects of that show. Wait, can I ask you a quick question about watching this session with your kiddo? Yeah. Is she team Logan or team Kendall, do you think? She's team make eye contact with me and hold me in just the exact correct way. Otherwise, I will make this a very difficult hour of television for you. So I would say she doesn't have a rooting interest other than my affections slash physical attention.

That sounds like classic Logan to me. I'm going to put her down as Team Logan. If you were me, what direction would you coach her in? Well, it depends Like what kind of A relationship you want to have with her Because like You strike me as like

If you had to pick your team Kendall, right? Aren't you? Oh God. But what is that signal? I mean Jesus like a false wokeness Like I don't want to be cast in with that lot either The lesser of two evils possibly? I don't know.

I guess so. They're both pretty gnarly as far as that goes. Of course. But like would you rather be I'm starting to become like Team Stewie? Like team Stewie, team Sandy, let them take control of the company. I don't know.

Pragmatic viciousness, you think, is the way to go? Yes. While wearing a turtleneck to a shareholder meeting? No, but if you want to have like a fun, spirited debate, TV debate with your daughter every week, you would want her to be on the opposite side of the team, right? I got to say my wife would not enjoy that as I spend most of my time debating pop culture stories, publicly, professionally. I think leaving that out of our private lives,

probably the way to go. That being said, I'm incorrigible and we'll probably do exactly what you're describing. Speaking of Kendall, what do you think of the Kendall Roy experience in this episode? Because he's stretching himself to insinuate himself

into this week's story. What'd you make of it? I mean, again, I mean, he's self-aggrandizing, the puppet master garbage, the Eagles Airy garbage, like all that sort of stuff. Like all of them.

that is terrible, terrible classic Kendall. Something that was really interesting upon, like, I don't know, it might have been like my third rewatch this episode. When he comes in and he's yelling at everyone about how they're letting it slip their fingers and his work and all the sort of stuff. I feel like Jeremy

Strong tapped into a level of yelling we haven't seen from Kendall ever. It felt like a loss of control, a different kind of loss of control. He doesn't really yell like that in that register. So the Kendall Roy experience, something I would never buy tickets to. Is that a magic show?

Is it more like, is it Prague rock? What is happening at the Kendall Roy experience? Oh my God. Imagine the like sweet, sweet flute action. And our Thoreen tale told via grand eloquent rock opera? Yes, correct. Actually, now I want to go. But, yeah, so he's insinuating himself, as you say.

But is useful. his advice to Shiv is good advice because however he may feel about his family and his siblings they do have a shared interest in all of this and he gives her good advice and I shouldn't be because he's such a little worm but I was devastated for him that he got duped by this whole

I mean and also not that I was a huge fan of Carrie to begin with but I was like Carrie I don't like that you were a part of this yeah she she humiliated him. That was painful to watch. It's painful to watch him get humiliated over and over again. Yeah.

And someone was pointing out to me, maybe the brilliant minds at Reddit, but like this idea that the episode ends with Kendall sort of hemmed into this sad little like room, hotel room, and Logan, like the gates opening up

and Logan striding out of it. That's how the episode ends for both of them. And I just thought that was kind of an interesting visual cue. I don't know. What do you make of the Kendall Roy experience? Well, I think you put your finger on something with the yelling sequence. That was the moment when Kendall actually most resembled his father, when he had flown off the edge, when he felt like he had to demonstrate his power and intelligence over his siblings and kind of spank them publicly.

And in fact, he was right. He was right that they were fucking it up and that whether it was his father going piss mad, and that's the first time I'm saying piss mad on this episode. or whether it was the, you know, shivs or Romans or Jerry's incompetence or what have you, they were fucking up, certainly some things that he had worked on, but mostly what the company had been building towards. And it was interesting to watch him wig out

while his dad was wigging out. The other thing is that it was a big fat underline in Sharpie pointing towards the fact that Kendall has all the right instincts and none of the right moves. He's never responded the wrong. right way, despite knowing how the game is going to be played out. Everything he said to Shiv, as you pointed out, was on point. Every move that needed to be made from other people was correct. Just like the acquisition of Volter was probably smart and might have actually set

the way forward for the future of Waystar Royco as a progressive new media business. But he doesn't actually know how to follow through. And when he is in the mix, when he is involved, when he's negotiating a deal face-to-face with the owner of Walter, he fucks it up. When the deal is made between Stewie and Sandy and Wastar Royco, he can't help but wander his ass out onto the stage and embarrass himself

and essentially destroy his relationship what feels like permanently with his father. We'll see if that holds up. I mean, I don't, you know more than I do about that, but I can't imagine a world in which Kendall and Logan don't have something between them. I have no spoilers or anything to say about that, but I will say that like, I don't know,

every time I think something's permanently broken in this show, like, you know, Shiv and Kendall or something like that. I don't know, we'll see. But it's interesting that you mentioned him wandering out on stage doing this terribly embarrassing performance that his poor team of Barry and Comfrey were like desperately trying to get him not to do. By your very absence, I think, is something that Barry says.

But is the exact opposite of his press conference triumph at the end of season two. You know, and even when, like, all eyes were on him and he was like, and he was just getting all the reaction he wanted, this was just, like, awful silence. And when even Greg is like, God, that guy's annoying.

Like, dagger, dagger to the heart, right? Listen to me very carefully. Okay. All of you. This is you throwing it away. You think they're bluffing? They are not fucking bluffing. And you're putting everything I have fought and bled for

on the fucking edge, and I am not going to let that happen. Do you understand me? You're not welcome here. Fix it. You fucking fix it. You may go. You are excused. You have no right to be here. Thank you very much for your concern. That's such a brilliant. I just want to circle back to your point about Kendall being the most like Logan when he's yelling. And this idea that he has some of the right moves, but not all the right moves. And it goes back to the thing that I constantly think, which is that their powers combined, the unimined to use an Eternal's thing of Shivin, Roman and Kendall and maybe Connor. I don't know. Like I think together they could. could be as powerful as their father, maybe not on their own. But, you know, Kendall's insight, Shiv's ability to sort of talk to Sandy. Like, she did a great job with that conversation.

Kendall never could have landed that plan. It's not just because it's like as two daughters, a veiling father sort of thing. It's just like Shiv had the correct moves there. We seen her do that before. And Roman also has his moments in it, you know, so together, you know. Can I bring up an article that I write about this episode that I really, really enjoyed? Of course. Imagine if I said no.

Don't bring it up. No other outside media. You've already shouted out, read it a couple of times. So I don't feel good about you bringing up other media. No, what did you read? A really good friend of mine, Emily Vanderhoff, who writes for Vox, a brilliant critic. She wrote this great piece titled The Four Fs of Trauma Response and the Four Roy Kids' Succession. So the four Fs of trauma response,

fight or flight is the one that people are, are the two that people are most familiar with, but Freeze and Fawn are the other two that makes the four Fs. And Emily wrote a pretty compelling essay about this week's episode, sort of identifying each of the Roy's like siblings and which response is sort of most associated with them. And then she does concede that like it's kind of, it's not accurate to just peg one response.

to one kid because they move through them. But I think the most interesting observation she made, first of all, she was like, Connor's flight because he's never there. I was like, that's interesting. But was Roman. And for Roman, she most identified Freeze. And it made me rewatch the episode and watch how often when something awful is happening, Kieran Culkins in the background just freezing up.

And Roman is the kid that we know the most about maybe some physical trauma that. that he has experienced in his life in this family. Observed some of it as well. Yeah, exactly. But his freeze response, which then turns into like the fawn response when like Shiv is on the outside and he settles up to his dad. You know, it's like it's a back and more thing. But like there's a lot of good background.

Everyone is always doing good background acting in this show because they never know when the camera's on them. But Karen is really interesting to watch, I think. Oh, Tony Tourette's, yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about Roman. I'm glad you brought him up. I thought this was a masterclass from Kieran Culkin,

and it all felt very well-timed when you think about his hosting Saturday Night Live, and he was on a bit of a press tour in the run-up to his Saturday Night Live appearance. And, you know, I think, frankly, just like acquitting himself quite well as a public person. You know, the Colkin family, that's a complicated tale of American showbiz. And I'm sure he's been through a lot and seen a lot. And he's always been considered, you know, a very gifted stage actor, of course, Jay Smith Cameron, your guest on this week's episode. He worked quite closely with her partner, Kenneth Laundrigan, one of our greatest living writers. Are you a Margaret fan? A massive fan of Margaret

fan of Margaret fan. That film is out of reach on my shelf, but one day I will wave that to you as well. Okay. And I'm also a massive fan of the play This Is Our Youth. And that is the show in which Kieran kind of like reimagined his concept of being an actor. And you're right that in this episode, he's quite good reacting and playing the back. And also he has that moment in which, as his father is going, I'll say it again, piss mad. Okay, I love the phrase, piss mad. You can say it as many times you want to make me laugh

every time in this episode. I'll keep going. But at that point, he describes his dad as gambling the company because he's a badass and looking for a reason to be frozen to use Emily's phrasing. You know, that not having to react and just trust his father

is probably his most comfortable state until he does get his showcase in this episode in which he has to tango with POTUS. He hops on the horn. I loved that they had a little bit of cross talk there. Reminded me of doing so many podcasts in the last two years over Zoom, which is a very familiar moment.

And he has this one-sided phone conversation that performance-wise is amazing. He is this jumble of contortions and head slapping and body quivering and he's all over the place, but so relatable in this moment of intensity. Just a big shout of. to Keirn Golkin. I think he's such a great part of the show. The physical comment, I mean,

the other great nonverbal moment is when Jerry shouts him out on stage, right? And Roman does the pause and there's like a like a pan zoom into his face and then he sort of just smiles and walks a great moment. A visionary COO. Is that what he's described as? Just like beautiful moment. But also something I noticed on rewatch is that, you know, Shiv sends Greg running on an errand twice. and each time Nicholas Braun has something in his hand The first time he's eating something And he just like runs and eats at the same time The second time he has like

Two water pictures in his hand I don't know It's just like every time he had like something in his hand Which just like takes the comedy One step over the line to like complete brilliant So yeah the physical comedy Shining through with a lot of A lot of the folks in this cast

It's pretty impressive this episode Are you okay big man? Are you okay? Did you get a caught? Give me a hand. Okay, yeah. Not to, like, you don't need me to hold the scepter? No.

Okay. Okay, take your time. As usual, one of the most tragic figures in this episode is Tom. I was hoping your transition would be to Tom. So Tom is, we've gotten some notes from folks on the internet that have pointed out that maybe we're not, maybe we're not playing this properly. Maybe we have not been observing Tom's long game here. because I remember maybe the first or second episode, I can't recall which,

there was a moment after a conversation with Logan in which Tom sneaks off into a bathroom or a meeting room, a side room of some kind, to make a phone call to a lawyer. And there's a suggestion that maybe Tom is double agent or Tom is prepping some sort of way out. Should he be the fall guy or should things really go belly up at Waystar Royco?

Obviously in this episode we see him clinging to, humping his wife after she closes the deal and kind of tirelessly seeking procreation so as to frankly I think baby trap her. And also he has an incredible exchange with Greg after Greg reveals that he may be suing Greenpeace. But Tom is also this like beautiful surrogate.

I feel like he's the person who treats Logan with the most decency when Logan is truly feeling sick from the UTI. You know, he not only escorts him to the bath but he also, when he is less cogent, he talks him down and he accepts Logan's reality when he communicates with him, which I thought was kind of a beautiful moment,

Matthew McFaidden, of course, such a great actor as well. Where's Tom at? What's your read on him right now? Yeah, I mean, Tom is such, we've talked about this before, how Tom is such an interesting

cocktail of, like, vicious ambition and, like, actual, gentle caring, like, If I had to pick one person in that room to take care of me when I was sick, I would pick Tom. Because he's got this sort of like, there's the Midwest nice, but then there's like actual nice. Like he actually, he cares about Shiv. And if Shiv, like, there's that moment at the end of the episode after they've had the argument about the baby and after Logan has rebuked Shiv, where he goes to hug her and she sort of like, shy his away.

And he's like, it's just like, just let me hug you. Like, just, it's just this. And it's a beautiful, like, distillation of their relationship where it's like if Shiv could bring herself, I mean, she's understandably wary of him given the conversation they just had. But, like, if Shiv could bring herself to, like, let Tom in, like, Tom really does want to just, like, be a loving, supportive figure to her. That is something that he wants. I found his nurturing of Logan to be just, like, a really, I don't know, it makes me sad for the man that Tom might be, you know, if he could just, like, let go of that other thing. That is a part of him, that viciousness.

It's so funny that you said you had heard some feedback from people that perhaps we weren't reading Tom correctly. I heard some feedback from people who, we talked about this a little bit in the Tom and Greg scene last week, but I heard from some people who were surprised that more people aren't, like, actually questioning Tom's sexuality or Tom's potential bisexuality or whatever the case may be. And I think, you know, we talked, we talked to how, like, weird, weird is not a great word, but how unconventional sex and sexual relationships on the show are. And so I don't want to shut the door in any possibility at all. But I do think whatever's happening with Tom and Greg is just like miles beyond an ordinary attraction. But I do think there is, like, attraction there. I think that's true.

I think one thing we've learned from him between the, um, the bachelor party episode and his encounter at that party. And his physical communication with Shiv is that he likes to be very performative about his heterosexual activity, very verbal about it too. He likes to share and sort of like oversell, you know, and that shows a sign of kind of like an insecurity, perhaps, around some of those things. A compensation or something. Yeah. And so it's possible. Whereas between him and Greg? seems more pure, seems more intense, seems more... Now, I think...

What did he say? I would castrate you... And marry you? And marry you? Yeah. That's verbal, certainly. It's direct. Perhaps it's a little strong.

But it seems true. And I think what's going on between them is very specific between them. I don't think it's kind of worthy of labels or boundaries or anything like that. But I don't think it's unsexual. No, no, no. No, it feels intense. intensely felt. Versus his assistance of Logan in the bathroom, despite offering to hold the Scepter.

That's in a different bucket altogether. But I want to shout out this one moment when he goes, pop, Papa? Like, that had to have been a Matthew Fadden improv. Like, it had to have been. And I hope that once they cut Brian Cox, started laughing his ass off because it was so good. I hate to keep dragging my daughter into this. but, you know, the word Papa is like in the, in the lexicon right now of child rearing. And I'm like, there's too many words for mom and dad.

You know, I feel like we're confusing our young children and we're confusing our elder Tom. You know, Tom doesn't totally know how to refer to Logan, even though Logan is clearly, you know, not aware of who Tom is and believes he may be his, I guess he thinks he's Connor. I'm not totally sure who he's mistaken him for as he calls him son when they're in the bathroom stall together. Well, I want to mention this other thing about Tom and Kendall. What's striking, I think, on rewatch is how long it takes Shiv and Jerry and Roman and everyone else in that room to notice how what's going on with Logan, right? And I like how you pointed out with Roman. It might be really rooted in like denial, like wanting to not have to take responsibility

for whatever's happening right here. But I have to think that if I believe, and I could be wrong, that if Kendall were in the room, Kendall would have noticed it earlier. Kendall, I think, Kendall, especially, like, the man who gave Logan his pills for a whole season, like, would have noticed that faster. And Tom's the first.

I mean, Tom is also, like, escorting him to the bathroom, but Tom's, like, the first to notice it. And I just, I thought that was an interesting sort of, like, you're watching it. You're like, how do you guys not see that this man is already ranting? He's already ranting.

Like, it's just, I don't know. I think you're right that Kendall would have, he would have IDed it. Because he's the most tapped in. He's the most tapped into his father. He's most tapped into the name. nature of the business. Like we said, he has all the right instincts, but none of the right moves. I wanted to just shout out Frank very quickly. You know, as a quasi-professional podcaster,

the art of the vamp is a true talent. Quasi, sure. And it sure seems like, especially the Frank being rebuffed by, I guess it's by Carl at the outset, where he approaches him, speaks to him, and then pushes Frank back out on the stage. And he says, gives us, a sort of like much ado about, you know, something to do about spiel. Good old Shakespeare Frank on the move. Exactly. He's leaning on what he knows best to power his way through this presentation. Have you ever had to give a presentation like that? Have you ever been in a position where you're like, I guess I just have to just keep talking

for an extra 10 minutes here? It is painful to have to do that. It is. I'm, I rely on filler words at the best of time, but you will not believe how many likes ums and us I can pull out when I need to stretch. No, the comedy of errors of like our executives here, which is Carl Frank and Jerry is so interesting. Carl, what I love about Carl is he is always the first of a volunteer to like announce the good news, right? And he gets to in the end. But he was supposed to go and relieve Frank and then he just sort of leaves Frank out. He's just like, nope, we'll leave you out there.

There's this amazing shot. I don't know why I love it so much. But every time I watch this episode, I zero and I of like Carl leaving the green room, wherever they are, they're holding room to, you know, get himself ready to go on stage to talk to Frank. And it's just a shot of him, like, sort of racing down an empty hallway and, like, sort of getting his clothes in order and stuff like that. And there was just something like, I don't know, why is that shot in there? I don't know. It just makes the whole thing feel really real and human.

But Frank having to vamp, Jerry going out there briefly, Carl going out there and interrupting the video as it's saying, we care about women. Like all of that stuff, you know, Hugo asking if they could call on a bomb threat. To your earlier point, there's a, what did you say, a lick for everyone in this episode? Everyone gets a taste. Yeah. It's like a big, every episode is like a big ice cream cone. You'll see I've got a lot of overworked food metaphors for this television program. Your life is not a baguettel because you are putting yourself in the service of a monstrous endeavor.

because you need to take yourself seriously, kid. One other person that I think we should talk about is Greg. Greg the Egg is in a state of confusion, it feels like. It's not totally clear where he wants to put his alliances. When we first see him, he's with the Roy's, and then he very quickly moves over to Kendall to have a conversation with him about whether or not he's going to be burned, which Kendall says he is and then he might be.

burned. It sure sounds like he's going to be burned. And then he goes to meet with Ewan and Pew to discuss potentially returning to their fold, which then leads to, frankly, perhaps the most punishing line delivery of the season, which is James Cromwell changing the register, exiting the U.N. voice. Yes. And returning to the James Cromwell, you know, grand, like stern grandfather voice, the true stern. That'll do, Greg? Yes.

The babe voice, exactly. Thank you. And he says, because you need to take yourself seriously, kid, when telling him why he will not be receiving his fortune. I thought this was a very important and impactful scene in a very brief moment in the episode. Where's Greg at? Yeah, and Bronn really, Nicholas Braun really absorbed. Like, he played that as Greg really absorbing that. And then, of course, Greg goes on to say that he's going to sue Greenpeace. So, like, you know, say it's a light absorption.

It's not like the bounty picker ever of absorption. But, like, you know, it's, it feels like something. We've talked about what's Greg's future and all this, how Greg always seems to be in the right place at the right time, like how great, there's a way for Greg to maybe carve a path upwards for himself. And this idea of you need to take yourself more seriously. Like, we would be distraught to lose him as like a clownish figure on the show. But we've talked before about wanting character development from people. It's interesting this idea. It seems like he goes over to Kendall's

like just to see Comfrey. That sort of seems like why he goes over there. Again, we see Kendall mishandled Greg in a baffling way. Like it would be so easy if Kendall just turn on some honey for him to have Greg on his team. And he doesn't. And then there's no quarter for Greg with his grandfather. And then he's just back to being a background,

you know, buffoon in the... the Roy family circus. So I don't know. It's, yeah, he's like ping ponging around in a very interesting way. Is Greg a vitally important character to this show? In what sense do you mean for like entertainment value or plot value? I think it's not debatable entertainment value. I think Nicholas Braun is world class, you know, comic relief and breaking up these

sort of pure anger that is emanating from a lot of the Roy's. But to the future of the story, do you think long term? He is, he will continue to be what, he's been presented as a critical figure, but he's never really actually been involved in critical events. This goes back to what we were talking about. I think in our preseason discussion of succession in terms of like the characters as they were written in the pilot versus who they become given the talents of the actors. The idea that Kieran Culkin was in serious contention for cousin Greg. So like imagine this whole thing but Kieran Kulkin's playing cousin Greg, a very different character, right? Yeah, that would have been so different.

As a plot device, what Greg is in the pilot and the beginning of the series is an outsider insider, right? Like, he's an outsider which helps the audience understand this world that he's coming into because it needs to be explained to him. And so then it's explained to us, right? But he's an insider. He's a cousin so that he can be at the family gatherings. But he's an outsider figure in that way that helps with exposition grounding us in that world. But he quickly burned through that role. Like, he's not really in that role at all anymore.

And so what is his function in this world? And I think most of us are there because we're for the Tom and Greg show. But what to what end? Do you know? I don't know. I don't know either. I'm interested because I think he's doing something very interesting with that performance. And he has been positioned routinely as this critical swing vote.

And I don't know if he actually is that. I'm still trying to work my way through it. Right. And in this case, you know, like, what role is he going to play in this case? Or is this going to be another like sound and fury signifying nothing sort of moment for which, you know, it just all keeps resetting is what it feels like. But are you having any issues with that? I think there is some frustration amongst some viewers that, you know, we mentioned last week, we're here for the journey. We're here for the interactions.

We're here for the dynamism of the moment to moment writing and performance. But I think some people, we are a plot conscious nation. We are, we like to know where shit is going. Yeah. Whether it's our national politics or our prestige television. Do you think this is an issue for them, potentially? I've definitely heard that and I definitely thought that. Like, and I think when I was watching these episodes in isolation before I was

watching, talking to you about them week to week, I felt the Kendall backslide to be frustrating, this idea of like, I felt like I really followed him on a journey in season two, and I felt really invested in his journey, and I felt really surprised and delighted by the turn it took in the end. And then it feels like this felt like a reset to the asshole idiot that he was in season one. And so that, I can point to that as a source of frustration. But overall, like, I wouldn't be surprised that this show just ends up being like a hang, because, you know, something that Chris and Andy brought up on the watch this week

is there's sort of like, they can't see the show, they can't see a Loganless season of this show. And as we've talked about before, Logan was supposed to die at the end of season one, didn't because I don't think the writers can see a Loganless show. But like, the actors keep talking, this is not a spoiler because I don't know. I'm not seeing like the end of the season,

but like the actors keep talking about things are building to something, like a breaking point. They've all said something like that in interviews. I have no idea what that breaking point might look like. My mind reels, like, could Logan die? Could he get arrested and sent to jail? Like, you know, what would this thing be built to? This is me genuinely speculating because I don't know.

But that maybe is the plot that is promised for people who are feeling a lack of plot, you know? We're all waiting for calm freeze rise. Next season is going to be all about her ascension to the top of the succession power rankings. How about you? Are you feeling sort of? No, not really. I mean, like I said, it just doesn't really bother me. I've got plenty of plot in all of my other shows.

I've got an MCU show coming up, you know, ready to devour all of that plot and I'll enjoy it and appreciate it for all that it's worth. The show is not about that for me, but I do think that there is, like I said, a certain sector of the fandom that may start to feel like we can't just keep resetting, as you said. We have to figure out a longer-term structural approach for this show. Well, something that's funny about this episode, you know, this idea, this reaction that like, oh, nothing major happened in this episode, which a president effectively resigned. Right. We didn't even talk about that. Because of what our characters did on their TV show, you know, like... Yep, tusha. A presidency ended.

And, like, and Roman has a great sort of lampshed. You know, he's like, you know, the end of the republic, our ability to topple a republic or whatever he says. Like, it's, it's great. But, like, that's not what I've been waiting for succession to go down. This idea, like, you know, Connor and the reason and a presidential race. Like, what are we going to become, like, move from a media show into a political show? I think that could be really interesting. It's, it's, this show could be bigger than Waste Roryko and the Royce.

It isn't yet, but it is expanding, and its cast is expanding. It's also an expansive episode, I thought, visually, just unusually... What a transition. It's unusually interested in the building blocks of the city and the access to power. You mentioned those hallways that the characters are kind of walking down all by themselves and kind of gathering themselves before speaking. There's a lot of like folding up the chairs and getting the shareholders meeting ready. there's a lot of helicopter shots of the city at dusk.

You know, there are all of these, this was a big kind of table setting sort of episode where every little machination mattered. Every little turn of the key mattered. And I don't know if that's, you know, something in the direction that Kevin Braving brings to it. I think not every episode is necessarily as interested as, you know, the entering of the car waiting to pick you up.

And I don't know what that was trying to insinuate to us. Maybe just that like big doing. were on the horizon here, but it felt a slightly different visually than previous episodes. I think that's really interesting. It's a table setting episode, which is a way to describe TV plot,

but it's also like we literally watch tables being set as they set up this shareholder meeting. And we've seen that before, like when they went to the summer palace, I think is the name of that episode, is it? Right.

Where, you know, there's the like the rotting raccoons in the chimney, and then we have to watch the staff dump, like, lobsters and, like, all this decadent food in the trash. And again, I saw a bunch of food being dumped in the trash in this episode. It's just like, it's that the waste of it all is one thing. But also, if you look at the title of this episode, Retired Janitors of Idaho, which is something Roman says dismissively about their minority shareholders, you know, I think that idea of the little people. a phrase that is repugnant, but like that, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the best

shots of this entire episode is Jess's face as she reacts to the rabbit news. Rolling her eyes. And like doing something with her chin, I didn't know humans could do. It's just like a pursing of the lips and a like something with her chin that was incredible. But I think I think this episode is interested. We've talked before about episodes that are interested in like highlighting how high in the clouds they are. I think this one is interested in, like, the fact that they're in their separate holding pen away from, you know, the people who are part of their company, but they don't mix, you know. Feels important.

A lot of important stuff to come, including me catching up to you soon on the watch of this show. Are you excited? Yeah, because then I don't feel like I have to tiptoe at all. Then I can just throw wildly speculative questions at you. Like, what's going to happen next? You can be speculative. I have an incredible poker face. I'm not good at that.

That isn't a skill I have. I'm very good at when I'm sitting in a movie theater and I'm watching a movie within 20 minutes, I have a pretty good feel for where the movie's going, and it's hard to surprise me in movies these days. TV, I'm not good at this at all. This is not my domain, I have to admit. I think it's because you've seen a movie or two.

It's probably why it's hard to. Or three, yes, I have. You want to cue us into J. Smith, Cameron? Let's do it. Let's hear from Jerry herself about this episode. With all due respect, Jerry, dip, bent. Look, okay, sure. It's humiliating, and I'm 99% certain your dad would agree.

But given where we're at, I have to check in with them. I'm sorry. Is she going to fuck us? What? No. I don't know. What fuck you're asking me? I don't know.

So happy to see you wearing this powerful red color. I have a red power question for you. I wanted to start by talking about your incredible red suit that you wear in that episode. I got a chance to talk to you around season two. We talked about Jerry's clothing, which I am kind of obsessed with. And I was wondering if what discussions there were around her hair, her clothing as she moves into this new position in this season. Michelle Matlin and I and Angel, who's the hairdresser, we've talked about her sort of Nancy Pelosi power dressing type in a general way that that's sort of, you know, I think she puts the sort of ethical, nice face on Waystar a lot.

She seems like reasonable and believes in obeying the law and good and evil. And so she kind of, and she's good at thinking on her feet and good at talking to people. And so I think this is her, you see her at her strong point in a way at these events, like at the Senate hearings. I think she had, you know, she's very self-possessed. And she's trained for that. She's a lawyer, you know. So I think that, you know, that's a very, you know, powerful color.

The red suit is like kind of says it all. And I think my hair had a more helmety hair helmet kind of look in that episode. Then I remember feeling like this doesn't quite feel like Jerry, but this is the public face of Jerry. And I'm wondering, you know, outside of hair and costuming, what are some of the larger conversations you might have had with the writers about? Jerry's journey in season three. Like, you know, was there, were you given any larger indication of what to expect throughout the season? I mean, I knew that at some point I knew that she gets named as CEO. That happens pretty early on.

And then, really, you know, we get our scripts at the last minute. And I mean, maybe Brian or somebody is privy to some of the things that they're thinking, but I'm not. And I, and it's just as well, I kind of like, because also they, even what they, a plan and they write, they rewrite and they rewrite. And then they give us a, they give us a chance to, as Mark Milo puts it mess it up a bit and put it in her own words sometimes. So it's kind of a, you know, evolving thing. And so you don't want to anticipate it too much because you could get, you could fall in love with something that then, you know, you might have something

a little bit wrong. And then you have to kind of make an adjustment that's uncomfortable. It's better to kind of let it be almost feel improvisational. I'm wondering if if there's ever, though, a piece of information you get in a, I don't know, episode seven script or later, and you're like, oh, that would have been good to know what I was playing this. Definitely. No mistake, yes. But you don't think anything's being withheld on purpose. I mean, maybe there's some wisdom to like not ever as a policy, you know, to like,

never leak too much to your actors because, you know, they might get wed to some idea and then be disappointed or misunderstand it. I don't know. I'm not sure if they have a like a policy about it, but it's often the case that showrunners are kind of close-mouthed about where they're moving towards. But yeah, definitely. I would like to have known for the beginning of certain things. Yeah. Well, I want to ask you about Jerry in this position because she has been so careful all along to not put her neck out in a way that could really hurt her. She's so political and savvy in that way. So what do you think made her take this gig that puts her in such a vulnerable position out in front? Oh, I don't think she could, I don't think, I think it was not something she could refuse.

And also, I think she already probably sees herself as operating that job without the official title. So I think it was kind of fun to get the credit for a little while. but I don't think I'm not sure it felt that hugely different for her. I think it was a little bit like, it felt to me like when she gets the call and it's like, huh, about time.

You know, like, but I think she also knew what you get given gets taken away. So, you know, I just think that's the nature of working at that with that family. I mean, the thing is I'm very protective of Jerry and I definitely think she deserves this role. I'm just scared for her in a way I haven't been scared for her before maybe.

And it seems to me, you say it's not that different, but it seems to me that there is a little bit more uncertainty, at least that we're seeing from her in some of these spots where I feel like before she's been very political, she'll ask for people's advice, but she's never seemed quite as uncertain as we see her this season. Do you agree or disagree? What do you think? You know, until you said that, I mean,

And I didn't really particularly think of it exactly that way. I think everyone, everyone, all the characters are increasingly less certain. Like it's careening out of control, sort of, you know? I think when, you know, back at the beginning of the story, Roman, the kids are kind of feeling out who could be CEO if it, when Logan's in his coma at the very, very beginning. And Jerry's like, no, thank you, which intrigues Roman right, right from that point already. And I think it's like she says, I don't want the job that makes your head explode. But she also knows they're in terrific debt, but she doesn't reveal to the audience or to Kendall until the end of the episode. But I think it's different if Logan asks you to do that because he is in a tight spot and can't do it.

I think that's a favor you can't refuse. So I think, yes, she's vulnerable, but I think she has very little choice. I think she's got a sort of stoic and. soldier-like attitude about, you know, marching orders, kind of. And yeah, and I think there's definitely some status, and she's enjoying that. And I think she's been around the block and she knows not to count on anything lasting. And I think she probably knows she's the most likely to be discreet and careful. She's the best possible spokesperson for the company right then.

And so even if it's a vulnerable feeling, I think in some way she must feel safer than having one of the hothead kids in charge of speaking to the shareholders or to the press or to the DOJ. In terms of that safety, though, what does it do for her sense of security in this episode to see Logan in episode five, Logan so out of control because he's ill and, you know, incomprehensible at certain points? Yeah, I think that's terrifying for all of them. No one knows quite what's going on. I mean, we've kind of found out late that he's, he's ill. We don't know what's going on. And for the longest time, we're like, oh, he says to do this, do this. And, you know, it's like anyone else would know that something was wrong, but they're so, you know, blindly, you know, devoted or, you know, they're so used to just, you know, not asking questions, but forging ahead. So I think that's part of the comedy of that episode. That's a little bit

has a, it has a quality of a screwball comedy. Absolutely. Um, there's this, there's, There's this moment in this episode where, you know, Roman says Jerry, you picked your prince, you know, like don't, don't screw this up now, don't back out now. And then, you know, shortly thereafter, you know, she calls him a visionary when she's up on stage. She has him get on the phone with the president, et cetera. But do you think Jerry ever wonders if she hitched her wagon to the wrong Roy in Roman? Sure. I mean, Roman is a loose canon and he's kind of silly and he won't drop this sexual kind of possibly slightly pervy sexual thing. And I don't think he's interested in carrying it through.

I mean, I don't think I think I think I think that. I don't think Jerry thinks that he's really actually serious about it. So what, for whatever reason we're playing this little game. And I think that, yeah, I think there's a little bit like, but I think maybe there's some part of her that's like, oh, well, you know, he's pushing. back that shows some gumption. So maybe she's like, okay, fair enough. It's a visionary. Okay. And I do love the shape of Roman and Jerry this season because I think some showrunners or writers might be tempted given how everyone, you know, exploded with joy around the Roman

and Jerry of it all last season. I think some people might be tempted to put their foot on the gas a little harder with them the season to just sort of give the people what they want, etc. And I really like it's still there, but we're still in that sort of cat and mouse pullback phase. And I mean, is that your general assessment of succession as a whole? Like they're not going to lean into something that fans are reacting to? Yeah, I think that's absolutely Jesse's way is to not pander to anyone. And also I think he's got, you know, the long, he's playing the long game to whatever degree. like I think, you know, he knows things that we don't know, to whatever degree they're resolved.

I don't know, as I say, but I think, you know, he knows where people are going a little bit more than we do. So he may know that he doesn't need to, you know, do this or that for it to be a pleasing storyline. It does. It does. He's got the bigger, the bigger picture in mind. You mentioned in an interview, I think it was with THR that you said, you called the Roman and Jerry relationship sad and fascinating in terms of Me Too and all this, especially like the way in which, you know, the reason they're having this shareholder meeting in episode five is because of a sexual harassment, sexual assault scandal. So can you expound a little bit more on how you put Roman and Jerry in that pocket if you do? I do not think that Jerry feels vulnerable to any kind of harassment from him. I think she's, you know, she's always like struggling to take him seriously at all. And she's his boss.

And I mean, I don't think she feels unsafe. But I think she does think like, oh, my God, could you just behave just for optics? Couldn't you see the whole company's in great trouble? So I think it's just like you, she's doing. doing him every favor by trying to keep him from derailing. He's too foolish to, or too wayward, you know, to care about that. When you enter a third season, knowing that the first season was a word of mouth hit, the second season was like a massive expansion of a hit, when you enter the third season, then you know, you know it's not a fluke. You know, like,

season one wasn't a fluke. We've done season two people also really like that and we felt good about it. How does that affect your attitude coming into a season three? Well, it always makes me nervous because, you know, things like that can be so fickle and so arbitrary. Like, you know, you're never quite sure what people are responding to or may not even be what they think they're responding to. And so it's hard to feel to take, you know, I have an incredible instinct not to take any of that too seriously. And to, so to me, I just think about, like, the story is still really good.

The characters are credible, and yet they do wild, you know, things I didn't see coming. It's still interesting and deep and complicated for me. So I can, it has a great deal of fascination for me. And I think the more we all commit to it, then, you know, I think that that gets passed on to the viewer. Like, you know, I, you know, I have this theory that there's a big audience that really like, you know, more intellectual kind of pieces where they have to work things out and have my attention and they have to make some leaps on their own and they have to put some, they have to infer some things, you know? And they can't just like only be vegging out in front of the TV.

They have to kind of work at it, bring something of themselves to it. And I think they, I think that audiences today enjoy that. and there's a real audience for that kind of smart TV. And I think as long as we can stay honest to that agenda, I think things look good for us, but I can't bear to think about like, oh, are we going to stay in favor? Or, you know, I think he kind of can't think that way, you know.

And my last question to you is so quick, which is just, do you have a favorite line that is yours or someone else is from this season? It's Romans line. when Colin the bodyguard is taking the empty bag past Kendall. And Kendall's like, what is that? You know, paranoid. And Roman says, it's an imaginary dead cat.

Fuck off. Perfect. I was standing on camera, but I was like, dying. And in fact, on Colbert, they asked us to just to free associate one word for the season. And I said cat, because I was going to say dead cat. But so I'm hoping that by the time, If anyone remembers the Colbert episode, that by then they'll be like, oh, that must be what she was referring to. It was a dead cat in the bag.

Perfect. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, Joanna. Thank you so much to Jay Smith Cameron for spending some time with you. Thank you to our dynamite producer, Steve Allman, who is the number one you and Hater, but the number one producer on this podcast. And stick around on the prestige TV pod.

All kinds of shows coming up, including a pre-cap with CR and Woz later this week. There's a whole bunch of other shows. You know, Yellowstone is back. What else is on this feed? Chris and I are talking about the great next week, a show I love. Yeah. How's season two? Good?

Fantastic. Oh, love to hear that. So stick around on this show and check us out next Wednesday. We'll be back with episode number six of Succession Season 3. See you then.