The Prestige TV Podcast - ‘Succession’ Season 3, Episode 6 With Matthew Macfadyen

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

Joanna and Sean rejoin to discuss the sixth episode of this season 'Succession,' "What It Takes." They break down all of the spectacular moments the Roys display and the desperation of Kendall (02:10). Later Joanna sits down with Tom himself, Matthew Macfadyen, to discuss this pivotal episode and what it took to capture Tom's performance (64:40) Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Joanna Robinson Guest: Matthew Macfadyen Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. This summer serve up the cookout classics, craft mayo and dressing. Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian. Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo. We all know it's not a cookout without craft. Hello, welcome to Prestige TV Succession, usually deep dive Wednesdays, but it's a holiday week. So it is a deep dive Tuesday.

I'm Joanna Robinson. Welcome to the hotel suite where it happens. This is it. We're here in the snake pit. It's a nice safe space where you can... admit you don't like Hamilton. And Sean Fennessey is here with me to admit that very thing. Hello, Sean, how are you? I'm doing well, Joanna. I'm just, just call me the Christmas tree because I'm tall and I'm jolly and I'm ready to be hung. What is it? Hang your bibles of malfeasance. I don't know. I just

made that up. Anyway, here we are. I would never dream of putting my crimes on you, Sean. It's the two of us. We're here to talk about this banger of an episode, season three, episode six, what it takes. someone else in the podcast this week, though, as well. Speaking of Christmas trees, it's Terminal Tom himself. Matthew McFadden is here to talk about this incredible Tom episode. So you'll hear that at the end of the episode. He talked about wine and diner scenes and all of that. So we will get into all of that at the end of the episode.

But first, we want to break down what we saw here in this creepy, closed door conservative cabal of picking the next president of the United States. This episode was written by Will Tracy and directed by Andres Parake. Will is one of the shows sort of really sharp, sharp, sharp writers. They're all sharp, but like this is, he slices and dices. I'm more excited than usual to talk to you about this episode, John. Do you want to just like give me your initial impression of this episode? Yes, favorite episode of the season.

far. This is actually what I want the show to be. And when we were doing a little bit of angsty, are we sure the show has the right momentum? Is it telling the story the right way conversation over the last two episodes? This underscores what is more meaningful to me about the show because one, it was obviously hilarious. Two, it has an incredible disposal of guest stars in its back pocket, Reed Bernie, Stephen Root, Justin Kirk, Yule Vasquez, Marklin Baker, Sinhalathan, just easily just inserting these figures in. for one, two, three, four, five lines at a time. But moreover,

the point of this show to me is not the soap operatic nature of the Roy family. It is about the ways in which the Roy family can affect the world at large. And that was the purpose of this episode, was to show us the ways in which power really works. Now, whether this was sharp satire, a little bit of overloaded parody farce, documentary journalism, I think that's all up for debate.

And hopefully we can figure out how we feel about that. But I just thought that this was a brilliantly written, brilliantly directed episode of TV. And it is also, of course, a field trip episode and reminded me really the most of Turnhaven, I would say. Of all of the episodes so far, this was a gathering point at an unfamiliar space with lots of sharp interplay. So I loved it. What did you think? It feels like, you know, I've talked about Turnhaven as being my favorite episode of Succession. And it does feel like a real companion piece, not just because Mark Lynn Baker is.

in both, but because... Maxine Pierce? Yes. Cousin Larry is here for us at all times. But I mean, because Turnhaven is so sharp and smart at, you know, turning the knives on the liberal side of things. And here we are swinging all the way on the other direction. I think of the Roy's is completely apolitical because they don't actually really care.

They only care about power, right? Except for maybe Shiv, which we can talk about in this episode. But the media has so much to do. with our politics these days, that it is only natural that succession should wade into the world of politics. I want to start by asking you another question, which is, what do you think the episode title, what it takes means? Like, what does that mean to you? That's a very good question. Well, it feels like the kind of phraseology that you find in American politics. It feels like what could be the slogan for an aspirant's campaign.

It could be, I mean, well, specifically, it is the title of one of the great political books of all time. Richard Ben Kramer is what it takes the way to the White House. And so I'm sure it is in part inspired by that. But it also feels like something you might hear in a stump speech from someone like John McCain, someone who is, you know, a kind of avatar of a certain party's point of view and also the rejection of a certain party's point of view. This was an episode about holding party lines, but also an episode about defying those lines in an effort to be more box office friendly.

So I feel like that's really what it takes is, is it fitting into the mold of expectation or trying to break that mold? And we can say maybe Dave Boyer does that in one way. Maybe Jared Mencken does that in another way. Maybe Roman Roy does that in one way. Maybe Shivroy does that in another way. So it feels like it is about this dialogue going on between expectations. traditional values, and how to upend those values. I love that.

I love all of that. For me, because my brain is scrambled eggs after having spent the last two and a half years watching the TV show Lost, the phrase what it takes on that show is a haunted phrase that comes from a father telling his son, you don't have what it takes. And it was so sort of wrapped up in my brain that for a second I thought that that is what Logan said to Kendall at the end of season two in the whole you're not a killer scene. But I went back and looked at the script there and that phrase is not from that. But when I was on that track, I was thinking that maybe what it takes meant, you know,

do you have what it takes to be a killer? And in this episode, we would see that Roman has what it takes in this particular arena. And, you know, Chavon does not, is it a bad thing that Chavon does not have what it takes to hop into a bed with a fascist? I don't think so. We're going to talk about that in a little bit. But let's start with this summit, this closed-door conservative summit. How aware were you of the existence of these particular meetings before this episode?

You've identified that there is a close correlation here between the Council for National Policy and whatever this future Freedom Summit is. I had not read the Washington Post expose about the CNP, but I'll just say in my deeply cynical, corrosive, heart of hearts, I was well aware that something like this exists. In fact, there are many operations like this that have existed, at least since the early 80s. And the more you learn about the Reagan administration

and the way that the George H.W. Bush administration responded to the Reagan administration, if you read it all about Carl Rove and Dick Cheney's history as operatives inside the Republican Party, there's a deep level of awareness about how American politics is not just imagined but manufactured. And this is a manufacturing plant. Yeah, and I think, you know, I too have a cynical heart. I think I didn't know exactly. I think I didn't know that there was an organization with like a mailing list. I was certain that the rich and powerful white men of the country got together behind closed doors and, you know,

made their picks for president. I just didn't know that an organization existed that had, you know, Kelly and Conway and Steve Bannon and et cetera, et cetera, like all the names that you know and loath on its mailing list, do you know? And this particular organization is about a group of 400 people that meet in these closed-door sessions. It's a very religious organization, as you say, sprung out of the Reagan victory and the skisming of that party.

Did you watch the F.S. X-on-Hulu miniseries, Mrs. America? I did, the Phil Schlafly series. Yeah, I loved that series. And actually, one of my very favorite episodes is the Jill episode, which features Elizabeth Banks. And there's this incredible moment. It centers on the convention, the contest, I think the last time we had a contested convention in American politics. And this character, you know, a real-life person played by Elizabeth Banks, has this devastating moment where she sees a conservative

party go in a direction and she a sort of more moderate conservative, a feminist conservative, is devastated by the future of her party. And I was just like thinking of that moment. And out of that convention is where this organization came from and all this other stuff. And it's just that moment. So that's just a show I'd recommend. I don't think enough people watch that show, but it was a, it was sort of an incredible moment in our history. And I mean like this stuff, CNP, like, funded Oliver Norse dealings in Nicaragua. Like, that's how deep all this goes. But I think the most important thing we see at the very start of this convention when

the Roy's walk in is we see a journalist being, I guessing it's a journalist because of what they were wearing, being ousted. And that's the whole deal is like no press allowed, closed door, what happens in Virginia stays of Virginia. It's an interesting place to set a circumstance like this, because There's very little in the real world that will trickle out. Secrecy is essential to the ongoing operation of these organizations. So it's kind of a fun playpen to build an episode around, right?

Because you could just imagine that anything is uttered in this space. Now, I think one of the big questions I had for you coming out of it was, obviously, no one speaks in quite the same razor-tonged bon motes that the Roy clan and the whole rest of the crew of the show speak in. but there is a lot of self-awareness. There is a lot of a cany strategizing with a kind of like Twitter-loaded commentariat feeling around a lot of the conversations. And I'll be honest, having met a couple of people in politics,

they're not that smart. You know, like this is actually a, this is kind of a domain of a certain kind of narcissistic, self-obsessed, also a short game, not long game kind of person in the universe. And I'm not convinced that all of the operatives inside of this world are quite as intelligent and as strategic as we are led to believe that they are based on the machinations of this episode. Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of smart people in politics. I'm not smarter than those people. That's not what I'm trying to say.

But there's like an overwhelming level of, it's as if they exist outside of a certain kind of a bubble and are able to observe and execute against everything else outside inside of that bubble. And I'm not sure I buy that in the real world. What do you, what do you think? Do you mean the candidates or like the strategists? Everyone. Everyone. Everyone. I mean, I think specifically of the conversation between Roman and Jared Mencken, which is kind of this centerpiece moment in the bathroom before. But that there is a level of kind of like exterior monologue. Again, this is something that I keep coming back to, people are able to make loud the feelings they have inside but don't necessarily

know how to put words to consistently. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think when you think of, you know, the comparisons, the people that the Jared Megan character is supposed to be a comp for, I agree. They're not as smart as Jared Megan is, do you know? And so in that specific case, I think you're right and I think it would be even scarier if they were as smart as Jared is. Do you know what I mean? It's a good point.

Maybe we should be relieved. Yeah, I'm relieved that Ben Shapiro could never have that conversation in the bathroom, do you know? And I do think that, you know, like the Dave Boyer character, the vice president, I think he's not presented

as particularly intelligent. But you're right, we're used to watching political shows written by very smart, verbose people. like Aaron Sorkin or Armano Yunucci. And so we've perhaps duped ourselves into thinking that they all talk a mile a minute in Washington, et cetera. And that's not necessarily what they do.

That's right. Even the exchange between Salgado and Shiv earlier in the episode, I'm kind of like, this isn't actually how this conversation would go. This is actually much too clever than it would be. I also just think, I mean, okay. I have not spent much time in the world of politics based on my TV politics watching. that wouldn't be a conversation that a candidate would have. That would be a conversation that, like, a staff member would have. Yes, an aide-de-camp would have that conversation.

But we're condensing things in order to throw a couple people in the mix. Something that I think I told you this before the season started, because I did tell you that Justin Kirk was in a later episode this season. And I told you that as soon as I saw him, I was like, oh, that's the guy. Like, whoever this episode is about, that's the guy. And I was sort of proud of myself for it. You nailed it. Not too proud, but like I was proud of myself for that.

But then I rewatched the episode. And it's like, the camera goes to him first. Like in the crowd, the camera goes him first. Justin Kirk is taller than everyone around him. So handsome. Like, all this sort of stuff. And so it's just sort of, you know, that wasn't a deep mystery for me to solve. That's just what the episode is presenting.

But let us talk about Justin Kirk, the Justin Kirk of it all. and the jerk making of it all in a bigger way. To me, and we've had some incredible guest stars in succession, to me, this might be a tip-top all-time succession guest star appearance. What do you think? How do you feel about it? Well, let's interrogate that.

Is it because he was born to play with these kids? Is it because his tone as an actor, his knowingness, his mischief, his sense of danger, his intelligence, his good looks, but not overwhelmingly unapproachable good looks. You know, there's a kind of like a physical bearing of everybody on this show where no one is too glamorous, but they're glamorous enough. And he also has that. Like, is it just that he fits in?

Or is it because he was just better than usual Justin Kirk in this part? Like, what was it that clicked for you? That's a really good question. And I think, you know, people are responding, you know, in their response to this episode, I think the scene that people are responding to most. is this bathroom interaction between Kieran Kolk and Justin Kirk. We can get to like the sexual nature of that or not as we want to. But I think it is the matching of an energy, as you say.

Like Justin Kirk can play with anyone in this cast, but it's like they went out and they said, okay, who is vibrating on the same frequency as Kieran? That's a hard prompt. Yes. Because it's not a usual like vibration. And if you asked me to sit down, I'm not sure I would have come up with Justin Kirk,

but that's why I'm not a casting director. And I think it is a perfect mirror for Kieran. And I think, you know, you and I have talked a little bit about Justin Kirk and, like, where we know him from, what we like him from. What's interesting about Justin is that he started his career playing, like, gay roles, gay roles and like AIDS-focused gay films and projects and stuff like that. Love valor compassion, AIDS in America, et cetera, et cetera. and then he translated that sort of,

I think the word that Chris and Andy used, which is so perfect, so I'm going to steal it, is puckishness, translated that to playing Andy on weeds, which is just like he was such an interesting choice for that character, the sort of near-do-well brother-in-law of the main character. Point being, he's just done this unusual twist thing throughout his career, and Kieran has done the same.

same thing. And they're both live wires and I think the conventional wisdom would be don't put two live wires in the same room, but it really works there. I don't know. I think that's my roundabout answer to your question. I think that's right on. And I think you raise the right point, which is who can get on Kieran's frequency and play with him in the way that you want. I think Sarah Snook is right up there in terms of being able to joust with him. And we see that in this episode when when Shiv is making her hard pitch for Salgado and she's talking about how dangerous this this Manchin character could be. But I don't think we've ever seen anything like it on this show

when those two are in the bathroom together. When whatever this weird mix of Matt Gates, Madison Cawthorne, you know, Tucker Carlson, whatever this, you know, amalgamation of neo-fascist, right-wing trickster archetype is that Kirk is crafting meets the like utterly carved out, like hollowed out cynical strategy body of Roman, who just like desperately wants to be jerked off by this guy.

Like I don't even know what else to say. Like the greasing up the hands during the conversation. Like there's just in the past, we've talked about the relationship between Tom and Greg in the sense that maybe there was something sexual between them. But to me, that was actually more romantic. This is sex. Whatever's going on between these two guys is we want to copulate right now.

And it was powerful. They nailed it. I'm creeping on the come up. Yeah, I've got some ideas for ATN, you know, sluice out the fucking porridge and add some saracha. Poach some of those TikTok psychos, you know, e-girls with fucking guns and jewel pods, you know, give me some straight shot, blacks and Latinos.

No more of this fucking pillows and bedpans. You know, we're strictly bone broth and dick pills. And I think that, I mean, we've talked about the way that sex works on the show and, like, do I expect for, you know, Jared and Roman to actually get into bed, bed together. I don't know. But I think what matters maybe more is this

idea that like this is someone getting into bed with fascism, do you know? And to make that as like sexy and sexual as possible and seductive to make Jared as seductive as possible, I think is really important. And it goes it's show business,

which is Roman, right? He was out in the Hollywood studios. That's what he did before he came back to New York, right? And he talks about Jared being box office. And that is the unfortunate truth of some of these horrifying politicians, like populating our country these days, is that they are compulsively watchable. Like, you know, Trump being the ultimate example. But, like, even in this episode when Chavon is so vehemently against Jared, what does she do when she goes back to her room?

She's watching him on her iPad. He's watchable even for people who are hate watching. And that's the thing about him. And I think that danger, that's what I, and you think about, you know, there's some great pieces in the rise of Trumpism and alt-rightism and all that sort of stuff. There were some great investigative journalism pieces about the psychology of the people who are most inclined to be seduced by the alt-right. And it was these lonely, angry young men online. That was sort of the thing. And if you think of the one person, you might say.

that Roman is a hollowed-out strategy guy, but he's also, I think, the most susceptible to being drawn into this world. What do you think about that? Do you think it's pure criticism or... I don't think it's an intellectual appeal. I don't think that Roman actually cares enough

about the game. I think he does care about winning. And I think he sees a pathway to winning. And when we see Roman give his pitch for the future of ATN and in turn, Waystar Royco, both in the bathroom and then when he pitches to his father, it's a, it's a chilling pitch, but I think it's a pretty savvy pitch. I think there is something,

he's basically pitching vice, but for neo-fascist fuckheads. And I don't know, like, I'm kind of surprised no one's done that. And I feel like that could be the future of conservative media 10 years from now. And so the fact that, one, the writers of the show have their finger on the post to identify that, two, they know their character and Roman well enough to put him in a position to say that. And three, that he needs, he knows he needs a Jesus Christ figure to show. shepherd that story along into American culture. And he thinks he's found one. And it doesn't hurt that he's attracted to him, you know, in more ways than one.

And, you know, the thing is, it's not that Jared is charismatic. Because charismatic implies a kind of emotional devotion to someone. It's much more scientific. It's magnetic. You can't not look at Jared. He pulls you in the same way Justin Kirk pulls you in with this invisible force. Even if you hate it, you can't get away from a magnet. So I think Roman is a little bit.

bit magnetized, I'll say. It's a magnet that's like constantly sort of shocking you. You know what I mean? Like a provocative magnet, I suppose, which is not how you'd want to describe it. Okay, anyway. Well, my question about Roman in the larger context of the episode is I feel like there has to be a reason why this moment comes for him right at the same time he finds out this news about his mom, that his mom is engaged to someone named Peter Munion, that

that the kids find out via someone else, a Brexit pervert is the one to drop the news. I don't know. I'm trying to connect those two storylines together, and I just feel like it speaks to Romans, I don't know, complete out there without a connection, without an anchor, his mommy issues, all that sort of stuff.

I mean, how do you lace those two together? I think it's a, it underscores the discreet, connect between the relationships that should be most meaningful in their lives relative to the relationships that shouldn't mean anything. You know, Dave Boyer and his connectivity to the Roy's versus their own mother and their disconnectivity to her is kind of a chilling testimony to the fact that this is a family that is a business and not a business that is a family. And that's sad. There's something really sad about that. And obviously they all get defensive and they all kind of rile each other up. You know, my family is the same way. When there's like a little bit of

kind of gossip on the grain, just a little something that happens, especially with extended family, and you're like, oh, did you hear that Uncle Steve did this? And that's like 30 minutes of conversation at a holiday. This is the same thing, but just at a higher frequency, right? That happened this week when my aunt came to stay over and she was like, did you know that our anti-vex or cousins got, they're fine. So, but they got COVID. And I was like, no, I didn't know. And then I texted my sister. I was like, did you know? They got COVID, you know?

And it's just sort of like, yeah, exactly right. I should say that Peter Munion, the seat sniffer, as Logan calls him. What a name. Peter Munion. This show is so good at names. Incredible. We'll be played by Pip Torrance, who was my favorite actor on the first two seasons of the Crown. He played Tommy LaSellis on the Crown.

And he's just, I mean, no one sneers better. So very British, very sneery. I'm very excited. for whatever. I haven't seen him yet. You know, so I guess that tells you that he doesn't show up next week. But I haven't seen him yet. I've only seen him on Roman's phone screen. Is he like the sort of like Butler attache figure? Is that who that is? Yeah, he's like a secretary. Like, he's got the thick mustache.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. And he's constantly disapproving and always right, but just a jerk about it. Got it. Yeah. I'm only halfway through season two. So I'm, and I kind of stopped watching the crown. I apologize. I love it. Okay. No, I support you in all your watching endeavors. But I mean, this is exciting. You mentioned last week, we're almost all caught up to each other. So I get to play in the speculative pool and say, I don't know what happens in the back two episodes of this season, but wedding and Tuscany for Mom, we know the production went to Tuscany. I mean, I think we're doing a wedding finale again, just like in season one. My theory, I don't know if you've ever heard me say this before, but there are no bad movies that open with a wedding.

If you want a good movie, open your film with a wedding. Godfather, of course, being the most primary example of that theory, I wonder if there is an ending a season of television with a wedding theory that is upon us. Could be. Could be. I'd love to see it. Also, the return of Caroline, who I adore, one of my favorite characters on this show. Oh, my God.

Dame Harriet Walter. And she's so everything. She's acid. She drips acid. And so the fact, I don't, I don't know how Pip is going to play. I mean, first of all, love that this actor's name is Pip. But I don't know how Pip Torrance is going to play Peter Munion. But, like, you could have a double acid drip if he wanted from those two.

And that could be a thrill. Hook me up to the acid drip. Anything else you want to say about Boyer or Salgado, the other two characters that we meet here? I mean, pretty clear parallels, I think, to Mike Pence and to Marco Rubio here. you know, we have a Hispanic American figure who is potentially a change agent of some kind in the party, but also clearly seems not ready for prime time or doesn't necessarily have the goods. It's easy to draw the parallel with Rubio. Boyer being kind of an empty suit the same way that many perceived Mike Pence to be seems fairly obvious.

What a year for Reed Bernie? I mean, you know, I see you've got in our notes mass, which I thought was just the terrific film, and he is particularly wonderful, just a really gifted stage actor on and off Broadway for many, many years. and, you know, people will recognize him from cropping up in TV over the years, too. So that was cool to see him and Yule Vasquez, both of whom are just awesome actors. I love Yul Vesquez. He was actually really good, not actually as if it's a surprise, but he was really good in the outsider. Yes, I thought of that last night as well.

Yeah, such an interesting show for being so genre, but having all these, like, really, really high caliber actors giving high caliber performances. And Yul was one of them. And I put mass in there actually specifically for you. I knew you would want to talk about mass. I mean, if anybody hasn't seen it, yeah, Frank Kranz, who also a well-known TV actor, his directorial debut film that premiered at Sundance. But I don't think you can rent it on iTunes yet. It had a limited release.

But when it comes to VOD, I would recommend people check it out. It's an intense, difficult film, but a very, very good film. Okay, okay, okay. So, Comfrey, Lisa's out. Turns out she's a toxic person, you know? And once I get the new legal A team in place, we've got to put that out with the right context. Okay?

Okay. Yeah, it's not a big deal. It's an opportunity. We just, you know, flip a big name. Boom, it's all good. Totally. It's all good. Cool.

I will tell Barry. Okay, guys, B-Day. Big, big, big, 4-0. How are we looking? Shit slaps. Let's press pause on the convention and talk about Kendall for a second. Yeah. Weird Kendall episode.

Yeah, the case is falling apart in front of his eyes. it seems like you had mentioned this earlier in the season and I shut my mouth, but the question was just what's in those papers and how many papers does he have? And like it seems to be not enough. It seems like, yeah, maybe I had my finger on that one. Which, you know, having seen those papers burning in real time on that porch all those episodes ago, not that shocking. I think the other thing to consider too is like even in the bad old days of 1993, a way star Royco, it's not like people. we're typing in emails, like, and now we will murder this, you know, a non-important person. What is the phrase that they use on this show? No real person involved. No real person involved. So it's not stunning to hear that the case is not going well. And also that the folks at Waste Our Royco know how to overload the federal government with more documentation. Kendall is not smart. And it's really, it's depressing every time we realize that he's not smart. He's strategic and maybe even a little bit

savvy, but he is not intelligent. And he consistently gets himself into these circumstances without realizing where he's going. I think the thing that Kendall gets marks for, like, Roman right now is racking up a lot of, like, Ken actually, you know, we've watched him, he's studying. He's studying with Jerry. So in terms of like business acumen

and the art of the deal, you know, which we saw at the end of last season as well, like Roman scoring points there, Shiv gets some, the question of the, episode, but Shiv gets some morality points for me because, you know, she's the only one who box at this fascist. Like, even Tom, who a lot of people have a lot of love for, you know, just stood there smiling next to a fascist, you know, et cetera.

Ken gets bravery points for me. He misses the mark. He doesn't get intelligence points, but like, he's the kid who is first, like, dad deserves to be challenged. Do you know what I mean? So he gets those bravery points from me, but you're right. He's not very smart. He's probably more what you expect to see out of the political candidates that you were talking about. That's right. That's exactly right. You nailed.

He is more what I think of when I think of those kinds of machinations. That's so funny that you put it that way. He wasn't ready for this. He wasn't ready to attempt to take his dad down. He wasn't ready to be opposite the federal government. while being questioned. He, I don't think he had really played this out. I think he played out the fantasy

of being a progressive icon and having a feature on vanity fair.com, but I don't think he had really gotten much far beyond that, and we're seeing that now. I'm trying to think who would write that feature. I think I know. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. It reminded me a lot of his attitude

in the briefings with his lawyers, etc. reminded me a lot of Aaron Sorkin's version of Mark Zuckerberg in Social Network, where it's just sort of like, I don't need to take this seriously. And lawyers trying desperately to penetrate that very frustrating attitude. But Ken is, I mean, he's winning no fans in this episode. And, you know, he fires Lisa.

I love the look on Comfrey's face when she's like, okay, I will let Barry know that you have fired Lisa Arthur. don't know if that's this is the end for son i get to speculate this is really you're right it is much more fun if i get to speculate um um Lisa says at the beginning of the season when when Chavon goes to see her Lisa says like I can't help you I can't help you if that changes I'll let you know and so I have no spoilers on this but like is it possible that even though Chavon seemed like she really burnt something when she called Lisa Honey on her way out or whatever I mean, is it possible that Lisa's so frustrated with Kendall, she goes to Chauvin for something, you know,

it is possible we see this character again, or it's possible it's the end of her, you know? Yeah, I mean, I guess legally speaking, I'm not sure she can participate in this case if she has been fired off of it, and she certainly couldn't switch sides, but the game is long, right? Someone like Lisa, someone like Shiv,

they will need each other at some point down the line. Hopefully Snodlatan comes back. I could have just used more of her on this show, honestly. I think she's kind of an, underutilized actor in these kinds of shows and films and isn't often given enough to do. And so I just would have liked to have seen a little bit more. Also because that world is so complicated. And I couldn't tell if this was meant to be like a, some sort of like Gloria Allred kind

of figure or like who, like they didn't really develop what her stature was in the public space. And I wanted a little bit more of that. What's interesting, and you and I talked about this last week in terms of how they're using guest stars this season and how they're not being sort of folded into the cast. Like, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen at the end of the season, as I keep saying, but it's possible you don't see Justin Kirk again

until next season. If they're going to do a big political storyline, I don't think they're doing it this season with a Tuscan wedding to get to, do you know, and a 40th birthday to execute. So I don't, I feel like, it's a seed that's planted that might bloom next season. Comfrey's reading of that party, though, end times,

Vimar meets Carthage meets Dante meets AI and antibiotic resistant superbugs is, are you excited to go? I'm excited to throw my own next year, next July, be there or be square. Where will I hold it? You and Zadie Smith, you know, at this party? If she'll come. Who is your, who's your, like, your wish list for your, a big birthday of note? What celebrity that you don't know but feel like you know would you want to be at that party?

Oh my God, what a question for you to spring on me with no preparation. It has to be a writer. It would probably be like a – because the people that I like meeting most, and I don't know if you feel this way, but the people I like meeting most of the people that who was like work I've studied a lot. And then I want to talk to them about trying to better understand their work, if that makes sense. Of course. Of course I can relate to that deeply. Yeah.

Okay. That's a stall for me. You're just vamping away. I think I've met a lot of those people, some disappointing, some rewarding, some rewarding. I think that's the thing is, like, if you work long enough in the business that we do, you learn that maybe the people that you think are the most interesting and exciting, you never actually want to meet them. I've had a really good time with Tarantino over the last couple of years since he came and did a bunch of shows of us.

And the more I've talked to him, he's just incredibly entertaining, talk with. And, you know, that's the other thing is not all famous people are willing to give you who they really are. And in every conversation I've had with Quentin, he's not afraid to be like, here's what I liked about your podcast. Here's what I don't like about your podcast. You know what I mean? Like, he is, he is honest. And I think you'd want someone like that if you were going to have a party, someone that you felt like was being real with you because why, if they're not lying about something that you made, then they're not lying at all. I'll go ahead and suck up and I'll say Jesse Armstrong. Jesse Armstrong, come to my next big birthday party

and be as droll and British as you can be. How about you? I mean, Quentin is obviously already coming, but other than QT. I mean, obviously, Martin Scorsese is my, that's my idol. That's my, that's my North Star culturally. Marty at the party? All right.

Yeah, yeah. I think that would be a good one. I will try to manifest that for you. Thank you. Someone that they mentioned when, when Kendall's asking who's coming, He says Zadie Smith, Chuck D, Lucas Mattson, and Lucas Mattson is the character that Alexander Sarskar is playing. So like with Adrian Brody's character,

they're just dropping you a little crumb on the way. When I heard that, I thought, is that some economist I've never heard of before? I was trying to figure out who that was because I couldn't place the name next to Chuck D, but of course it is a future character we're going to meet. How is it better for me when I tell my wife, whom I love and this family that I am turning against them? She'll respect you. Tell her what she's doing.

Bring her over. Logan goes down. Shiv knows who the fucking man is. But, and I don't mean to be insulting, but having been around a bit, my hunch is that you're going to get fucked because I've seen you get fucked a lot. And I've never seen Logan get fucked once. Are you ready to talk about Tom? Let's do it.

This is like a Shakespearean figure at this point. Okay. So we've got... three main scenes for Matthew McFadden in this episode. And like his main scene partners are it's Shiv, it's Greg, and it's Kendall. And in all framed around food or communion of some sort, which I think is kind of interesting, the two diner scenes and then the wine tasting scene. Let's start with the wine.

I have a theory about the wine. I want to know what you think about the wine. Okay. Spott Burgunder? What is it about? How is it pronounced? I don't know. Okay.

This is a very Germanic kind of title for what presumably is a French wine? I didn't bother to remember it because it is definitely a wine we never want to drink. If vegetal is a word being used with this season. It was not even vegetal. I felt like it was dirt strewn. Agricultural. That's right. Agricultural.

I think that he's been talking so much about wine this season, obviously, right? like the famous, like, you know, cold glass of white wine speech, which made me go out and buy some white wine, actually. Tom sold me some white wine so that I would always have it in the fridge if I wanted it. And then the toilet wine. So here's my theory is that, you know, he's talking about how terrible the toilet wine would be. Are we saying here that Tom's marriage is a prison? Is there any difference between his marriage is Chavon and the toilet wine of, you know, of prison fame? Well, let's just take it even further. Is marriage? a prison is the construct of marriage in our culture. No. No, it's not. It's not. I'm happily married. I know you are. I know you are. I think so, yes. I think he has found himself. And frankly, he's trying to build more bars around it by trying to impregnate his partnership. So, yeah, I mean, I think, but that's okay. I think some people want to be imprisoned. I think some people, I think in a perverse way, Tom got intrigued by the idea of becoming the sacrifice.

official lamb because he felt like there was some sort of like odd nobility in that gesture. And so he's now like kind of at war with this concept of getting himself into these circumstances where he feels he is doing the right thing, you know, even in the way that he supported Shiv in the room while they were having the kind of roundtable back and forth about who should be the candidate, you know, he's sort of like mutedly assures Logan that he thinks Shiv is on to something with Salgado. And that was like a lap dog moment, you know, and he kind of, he's not a leader, you know, he's a lap dog. No, and I think that goes to, I mean, I think a question people,

I think people keep looking for, and I don't blame them, because it's fun to look for conspiracies and secret twists in shows like this. So I had a bunch of people ask me, if I thought anyone was wearing a wire in this episode. And I don't think so, but I do appreciate that both Shiv and Tom acted as if the person they were talking to might be wearing a wire. But I don't think that's the show we're watching, where someone is going to be revealed another episode that they were wearing a wire.

or that Tom had secretly made a deal or Tom was working at cross-purposes against Chauvin. I think it's all there for you to look at. Like the only maybe misdirect in this episode is when Kendall is demanding that Jess get someone on the phone and say he's priority number one. And maybe you think he's talking about Greg, but he's talking about Tom.

You know what I mean? But it's all within episode, do you know? But I think to the prison point, my take on it is not that Tom wants to be in prison and wants to build more bars on himself, it's that Tom has been spending the whole season dreading this terrible circumstances on the horizon for him

without taking stock of the terrible circumstance that he's already in. Like, wake up and look around you, you're already there. You're already in prison, man. But it's a gold-plated, pillow-strewn... Gilded cage. Yes, it is.

I mean, it really is. I think the idea that, actually this was a point that Chris and Andy made that I thought was very insightful, which was that, you know, Tom remembers from whence he came. And so he's willing to eat diner food, you know, in a way that Kendall would never eat diner food. But he has been removed from that world for quite a long time. It's a little bit like if you fly first class one time and you're like, holy shit, this is how people live. There are some people who only do this. And then the next day you fly coach and you're like, oh, God. Like, I'm now eating the burnt diner food of flying. And he's like got himself in this tricky spot where like he

remembers his origins, but he's tasted the good life. And so he's going through it. He's going through an emotional crisis. And it's funny because not even really thinking about it. Matthew did talk about this in the interview. You'll hear him talk about Tom's childhood in the interview, which I think was pretty interesting. But I do want to say, I want to stick up in defense of diner food for a second and say- I love diner. I'm from Long Island, man. Are you kidding? I'm pro-diner food. And so, I mean, the diner food that they showed, the gray omelet that that Greg was trying to get through, I've never had diner food like that. But in general, I'm pro-diner food. So I just, I just want to speak up. No question. I can't speak to the Virginia

diner food. Right. Exactly. On Long Island. eating in diners at all hours of the day as a lifestyle. And I have done so. Let's talk about the Greg scene in the diner. This felt like to me, it felt like a parallel to their first date over the Orde Lawn. Speaking of like the high life that Greg's tasted, like, you know, how are you going to go back to diner omelets when you've had Ordeon? And like, remember where Greg was when we met him there when he wanted to go to the California Pizza Kitchen on that first date that he had with Tom. And now he's toughen it through a diner omelet.

But I mean, it's just incredible writing. Just incredible, ridiculously hilarious stuff back and forth from both of them. Do you have a favorite line from this scene? I think Lode Me, you piece of shit. That one really spoke to me very specifically. You know, it's all great. I think, you know, there's obviously two showdowns here across the table in which people are trying to procure something from Tom in both of those situations. and he is the party of interest in both of these conversations across the table.

And he is, it's like the last gasp of power for him in a way. It's the last time he's going to be charmed and lured by someone else. And I think, I don't know, Tom and Greg is becoming a partnership for the ages. You know, there's something very special in their alchemy. And you can also see there, like the arc of this episode is really Tom falling and and Greg Rising, literally being risen on the shoulders of fascist proud boys being celebrated pursuing Greenpeace by the end of the episode. So something very representative there, too. I love that. Okay, we're going to get back to that, but we have to talk about Tom and Kendall at the

diner, right? You pointed it out. This is Pacino and De Niro. So when people talk about the actors on Succession, obviously, Brian Cox is a legend. Obviously, Kieran Culkin is incredible. Sarah Snook is amazing, blah, blah. But when people, when people sling the superlatives around of greatest actor working on television right now, which they do when they talk about this show, the two actors that they're talking about are Matthew McFaiden and Jeremy Strong. And we had a little tease of this scene when Tom and Kendall encountered each other in the office earlier this season. But this is the sit down moment. And this is the magic. I mean, and like we said earlier, people are talking a lot about the Kieran Culk and Justin Kirk

scene, and rightly so. But there is something. very special about this moment. And I just, I'm a sucker. Anytime you have two people sit down in a diner, my mind goes to heat. I'm not even like the biggest heat head in the world,

but like that's, it always feels like they're, you're chasing heat if you do a two people talking in a diner scene after heat. What do you think? How do you feel? Well, I think you've put your finger

on something very smart. When De Niro and Pacino, who of course were in the Godfather part two, but never shared a sequence because they were happening in different timelines. their union in this movie, the movie was sold on this showdown

and they basically shared one scene together, an iconic scene, a conversation between the two of them. And if we are to assume that the film Righteous Kill, circa 2008 never happened, and I would like to assume that, then this is the only time that these two screen grades shared a screen together.

This kind of felt like it might be the last time for a while that Tom and Kendall share airspace. and so I think we kind of need to appreciate that and respect that, especially given the way they went out at the end of this conversation. Between the two of them, yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I think they are probably the two most technically gifted actors kind of barring Brian Cox on the show.

They have very long CVs, but also have found, I think, really the roles that they were born to play. I think you could perhaps say that for Sarah Snook as well. We'll see. She's a little younger than both of them and a little earlier in her career. But I think we've, may look back and say, certainly for Jeremy Strong, this will almost certainly be the signature

role of his career. He's already won an Emmy. He might have another one on the way. You know what's interesting, though? I think about this with TV actors all the time. When people refer to them as their character, then I get a little worried for them about finding a career outside. But I feel like people call Jeremy Strong, Jeremy Strong. They call Nicholas Braun Cousin Greg. That's what I hear more than anything of an actor being called by their character name. I hear Nick Braun called Cousin Greg. I don't hear Jeremy Strong referred to as Kendall. And having seen him, I think this is maybe a pinnacle. This may be the top of what he ever does. But I mean, if you look at something like The Trial of Chicago 7, not an incredible film, but I thought he was

really so wildly different and slipping into that part. You know what I mean? And so, you know, of course, so different. It's a very different character. But I think he might have possibility for a life outside of this. And then with Matthew, like, he's, for a lot of people, he's Mr. Darcy forever. Or the MI5 fans are here as well. But, like, you know, it's, anyway, point being, incredible scene between the two of them. I was, I rewatched the diner scene from Pete to sort of see if this was like a really close intentional aping or not.

That scene famously was shot with two cameras over the shoulder on each act. trying to get the takes where you've got both of them reacting in the same take, and that's what you're watching on the screen. And I did think it was interesting for some of the shots you did have Jeremy's shoulder while Matthew McFaeton's talking, but then they like cut wide and give us a two and like all this sort of stuff. So filmmaking-wise, it's not a perfect match. There's a little bit of costuming matching if you want to go there.

Pacino's wearing a black shirt under and sort of like a brownish blazer, and that's sort of what Jeremy Strong is wearing. But I don't know. I don't know how slavish they were trying to be. I've just, it felt like heat to me. So I just wanted to shout that out. It wouldn't be shocking if there was some intentionality there. We know that this show is very smart about its pop cultural references.

So I think you're on point. I mean, ultimately, I think the interesting thing about this scene is I don't think it amounts to anything. Maybe that photo that Kendall takes of Tom at the end is used against him. But what does that photo even really do? What does that even accomplish? That Kendall saw Tom? Who cares? That ultimately doesn't mean anything.

So yeah, I mean, I think it is more just the, those closing moments of, you know, I've never seen Logan get fucked once, which could be almost like the subtitle for this series in general. You know, it's almost like the slogan of succession. And we see that in this episode. I mean, we haven't really talked about Logan at all, but Logan's back.

I mean, one episode ago, he was piss mad from a UTI, and now he's flirting with his personal assistant, maybe boning his personal assistant, and at the seat of power, as he once was. Two more Tom things before we move off of him. Yeah. Which is, Tom says this thing, I have late decided not to tarry too much with hope,

which sounds like maybe something Greg would say in testimony on the hill, but not something necessarily that Tom would say. And that phrase I have of late always ping something for me. And I think we have a very special guest here to help us with his next part. Steve. I have of late, but wherefore I know not lost all my mirth. Yeah, that's potential future 2022 Oscar winner, Kenneth Brana, with a quote from Hamlet. I have of late, but wherefore I know not lost all my mirth.

That's the beginning of Hamlet's famous, what a piece of work is man, speech. Did you just call a shot for Brana? Best picture, best director? What are you predicting? I mean, Belfast is what everyone's saying? saying, right? Yeah. I'm not sure if that's going to hold.

Screenplay? Could be. Could be. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think Brown, I think the Academy wants to give Brana something this year is what I think. I think you may be right. We can, you have another podcast talk about that sort of stuff. But yeah, I mean, Hamlet, what an interesting thing to put on Tom, Walms games from the Midwest, a Hamlet line. I just, I think that's, I don't know, I want to, I want to sit with it and think about it.

And then let me follow up with his last part, which is that Tom, when he goes back, when he leaves Kendall, goes back to the hotel, there's this amazing shot in the back of his head. Succession does this shot sometimes where they follow the back of someone's head through a building through a room. The Patel score kicked in with a track that I don't think we've ever heard before that reminded me of Barber's Adagio for strings, which, famously plays in, you know, epic moment in platoon. But no matter what Bertel exactly was doing there, it reminded me of these shots we get in war films where someone battle-weary sort of walks through something and takes stock of the carnage.

And this is when we see Greg hoisted aloft by the proud boys. And this is when we see Salgado walking out of Logan's suite. Like there goes the option of the sane choice out the door. and it's just Tom taking it all in and kind of days of the wreckage of something that feels like it happened here. He shares a look with Shiv and the camera peers in on Shiv's face

and I couldn't really figure out what that was. Was that her being suspicious of where he had been? Was that her just looking for safe harbor in the midst of all of this political anarchy? Was it her just looking to recover after their awkward encounter in which he tasted the wine and then rejected her advances

because she was still using contraception? I don't know. It could have been any number of things. What was your read on that moment? It's interesting. You know, I'll let Matthew talk about the conversations that Kendall and Tom have about Shiv. And, you know, the question,

what Kendall keeps calling to question is whether or not Tom actually loves Shiv, right? Or whether this is a marriage of convenience and ambition. And no matter what Matthew McFaigne's answer to that is, Um, what's true is that Tom, the reason he's doing all of this, he is telling himself is because he loves Chavon. And so I think for him, he walks in and he's taking stock. He's like, it's, it's for this that I'm staying. And she looks back at him.

And I think for me, it was sort of a, what's going, what is this look you're giving me? What sort of the look she gave back to him? Like a what? Okay. So I've completely overread everything. I don't know. I mean, maybe. Maybe she was curious where he actually went.

I don't think that Shiv would normally care where he went. Would not be the first time I looked too deeply into someone's face. It happens kind of every day. Same. Me too. But yeah, I mean, to go back to you wanting to talk about Carrie and Logan, I mean, Carrie is another thing, another sort of masterstroke from the show where she's been, you know, I kind of tried to call her out in a slightly subtle way, but she's been backgrounded,

this season and then to pull her forward in this moment, to have her speak up to the vice president of the United States. You know what I mean? Like, we've come a long way, Carrie, in just a few episodes. I don't know. I think it's great work. And this is something we've seen from Logan, actually, with Marcia in the first season, with Holly Hunter's character in season two. You know, what Kendall was trying to say to him in season two about Holly Hunter's character, Rea, where he was just sort of like, are you letting. your sexual desires sort of

lead you to make bad decisions and so Logan for all of his like citizen and like this is something he's sort of susceptible to is being like led by whatever's caught his eye sexually or romantically. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I think that's correct and I think he is

a man of a certain age, raised in a certain way and has bad instincts and has has a social flaw. And, you know, if Rea Jarrell let him down a certain path, it seems like perhaps Kerry could also lead him down a certain path. He has a vulnerability to this.

She seemed very pro-Jarid. She was saying like Jared's polling well. So I don't want Carrie who has such influence being on Team Jared, right? Truly chilling. Although I will say, for the sake of this show, Justin Kirk as a lynchpin figure in season four, I'm for it, honestly. I mean, I don't give a shit about the imaginary neo-fascist aspect of it. It's like it is representative of something that is in our culture right now.

So I think it would be powerful to have a figure like that. And watch the Roy's, I think, there is something interesting, I think, with unpacking kind of what the relationship was between, say, the Murdox and Donald Trump during his presidency or other aspects of the Republican Party during that administration. and how the Murdox actually felt about it and what level of guilt, concern, frustration, indifference they may have had to broadcasting some of those ideas and putting some of those people on their airwaves,

that would be an interesting, a compelling aspect of this show. And if you get into the Jared Mencken party, you got to wear the party hat. So we'll see. It's a real, are we the baddies moment right here at the end? This is like, I want to sort of wrap, up here at the end, you know, with the really chilling line, you win Pinky of like, you know,

for Chauvin. I listen to a lot of other succession podcasts and something that really, yeah, I do. Just to sort of strengthen our conversation as best I can. Are any of them better than ours? That's an impossible question to answer. But I think something that has frustrated me in hearing other conversations is when people start to trash talk Shiv.

Especially in last week's episode, it seemed to me that people had really drunk the Kool-Aid of Logan's right and Shiv did something wrong. And I was like, is that, Shiv landed the deal last week. So what did she do wrong last week?

I think using Logan as our North Star of this is how you should behave is a trick that the show might be playing on you. Similarly, in this episode, when people are like, well, Shiv lost again. She didn't lose, but what is she fighting for?

Not fascism. In fact, Chivon wants, you know, waste our Royco to, like, start supporting the Democrats. And I'm sure not only Democrats watch this show, but like, at least, you know, in the podcast land, probably that's a movie you want. So, like, shouldn't, why would, why are we calling Chavon a loser when isn't she the one sort of putting forth the ideals, however weekly, stated that we would allow. our selves with. Do you know what I mean? So if this seems rude, I'm going to apologize to you. I don't want to be rude. But genuinely, who cares if Shiv has good morals? Like, why does it matter in this hornet's nest of life in which she occupies, in which she is in pursuit of power, no matter what, even on her best

day with the most power, whatever she brings to bear is not ultimately going to be better for people. It's not going to be better because she is going to be better because she is going to to be responsible to the economy, the stock market, the board, all the things that happen in this this crux of power in which that she occupies. So let's say she convinces her father. And what I thought was by far the most unrealistic part of this episode to back a Democrat, which would never happen. Sure. But at least she had Selgato in her back pocket. But okay, go ahead. That would have made sense to me if she had found a more moderate Republican, a person of color, someone who you could have seen as like the way forward for your party out of

this mess of fascism. But their ultimately, Shiv is still a Roy and is still a shark. So, like, she cut the deal with Stewie and Sandy and Sandy and Sandy. But like

Stewie and Sandy and Sandy, cutting a deal with them, that's basically bad for most humans. So I... I think I'm not talking about the... I agree with you. You're completely right. I think I'm not talking about the larger moral landscape of the country or world, blah, blah. I think I'm talking about Chivon Roy, and to go back to something that Sarah Snook said in her interview with

us earlier the season, where she considered this season sort of this, I mean, they always say it's about identity, and that's maybe a really boring answer. But I think what this season really is is Chavon trying to figure out where her line is. And does she have a line at all? Do you know what you mean? And it seemed like she almost found her line in this episode at the end when she said, you don't need me in that photo. You know what you mean? And I am, I will just say, maybe it's folly for me to root for anyone in the show but I am rooting for Chavon Roy to find her line and stick to it that's what I mean more than like she's going to save the country

from itself do you know what I mean? No I do I do I get what you're saying I think ultimately what this season has been about in large part through the eyes of her character has been how in over her head she didn't realize she could be which is to say she never really worked for the family she was always kind of off on her own as an independent operator. And even Roman, who is a flawed and some might say flagrant individual, he just knows how to satisfy his dad's desires more adeptly. And so I think we're being constantly presented with even when Shiv is succeeding, she's doing so kind of indelicately. She doesn't know how

to deliver the win or accept the win. She wants credit for things. She wants to be acknowledged. And her father is a misogynist and is a kind of guy who would sleep with his personal assistant. and of course he is holding her to an unrealistic standard. And also he's trying to kind of like bully Hayes initiate her into this culture. And so I think she's constantly being presented to us by the showrunners as kind of a loser. You know, as somebody who doesn't yet know how to win, I don't think that's permanent, though. I do think that this is going to flip again. Right, because it's season three.

I agree with you. But my question is when we frame her as a loser in that way, My question is, what is a winner in this scenario? And is a winner in this scenario, Roman Roy getting into bed with fascism? This week it is. And so in that sense, I am pulling for Chavon to not win this game. In fact, and I've said this a bunch, because I don't know how to watch TV without caring for the characters that I'm watching, I'm running for all these kids to stop playing this game entirely.

You know what I mean? And find something else to do. But that's the thing. I mean, we're never going to get there. This is Alien versus Predator. Do you remember the Alien versus Predator tagline? No, what is it? It was no matter who wins, we lose.

Yeah. And that's really the case. It doesn't matter which Roy Kidd wins. It's going to be bad news for the American Republic. But again, I'm not talking about me personally. I'm talking about someone who's like, if you care about Roman, is this a win of an episode for him? Well, I think what's going to be fun to watch is him having to reckon with this devil's bargain that he's made. He is going to at some point have to jouse with Manken.

It's not going to be all greasy hands and slick emotions in the future. There's going to be a messiness. There's going to be an aftermath, you might say. What a phrase, greasy hands and slick emotions. I'm going to do a little predicting, which I haven't been able to do this season. I have to wonder if Chavon, despite getting in that photo, if Chavon did meet a line for herself this week. and will she rely with Ken? Would that feel interesting or would that feel messy

for them to have an almost alliance at the beginning of the season and then pull apart, have all this messiness, and then for her to go back to Ken at some point? Well, we know from the next week on that at least Shiv and Roman are going to be at the 40th birthday bash, but I think more specifically it's likely that a deal like that is brokered at a Caroline's wedding.

That seems like a moment where what you're suggesting, because there's going to have to be some turnabout here. There's going to have to be some, you know, reclamation of power amongst that the sideline group that Kendall runs. So, yeah, I think you might be right. That might be where we're going. And I mean, I think all the actors involved in this season

have been talking about this thing that they're building to. And I don't know what that looks like, because I don't know what an explosion of something looks like on succession. Last season, it was Ken's move, right? In the show that I'm most used to talking about Game of Thrones, it was a big death. And so I think that's what a lot of people have been predicting is that Logan's going to die or Ken's going to die or something. Like, that's what I keep hearing from people. Someone's going to die.

And I'm like, I don't know that that doesn't feel like the show we're watching. And so it feels like it has to be. be something else. And so it feels like it has to be some big power pendulum swing. Well, we get a soul death every week. So we're getting a lot of deaths. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Anything else you want to say about the snake pit or what you think we could be building to? Like, do you have any? No, again, one, I'm not good at that. And two, I would have never been able to predict that we were going to have an episode centered around the CNP and the decision for the next president.

So I thought that was wonderful. And I'm delighted. I actually should stop watching next week on because I don't even want to have anything spoiled for me. It would have been great to just fire it up and see that Kendall's 40th was around the bend. I just, I'm really looking forward to the final three episodes. I think the season has been very good. And I think it still can go up a level. Well, we'll see if Ken's party, the Weimar meets whatever else will take us to that next level.

Should we go now to our conversation with Matthew and Faden? All right, let's hear it. I'm worried about prison. I just feel because of my physical length, I could be a target for all kinds of misadventure. And it won't taste as good as this either, okay? You have to take off 30 to 50% of the taste of that endless salty gym mat that you're eating of Camels Labia.

Yeah, like they wipe their ass on your pillowcase. I know. That's something they like to do. I've read the prison blogs, Greg. I know. There's something that Tom says in this episode when he says, when he's talking about being worried or scared, and he says he's decided to just always think about prison,

always think about this threat that's looming over him. And when he forgets to think about it, it's like... It's like a bomb. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I'm wondering, given that you get scripts sort of right up until you're doing an episode, knowing that that's how Tom has been feeling for a while. Is that something you had in your mind

about how you were playing Tom previously in the season as this thing looms over him? I think the truth is that you just, as an actor, just the nuts and bolts of filming means that you're only really playing moment by moment. But in terms of that, this sort of season-long concern. Yeah, the sort of looming terror of incarceration. Yeah.

Right. Is that a larger conversation you had? at the beginning of the season with Jesse and the writers about what the shape of Tom's story would be in season three? Not really, no, because it was all just became apparent as the episodes came in and, you know, in the scene where he, you know, he has this meeting with a legal friend of his

to work out, you know, how likely it is that he'll take the rap for the cruise line scandal and turns out that he would. And so, you know, and then he has the idea to sort of fall on his sword for Logan and he's sort of thrilled and horrified that she thinks that's a good idea. And so it sort of builds incrementally into this awful realization that he probably will have to go to jail for a year or two maybe, hopefully somewhere nice. And then it just becomes a sort of, you know, it's sort of heartbreaking.

He worries about what time he can read till and, you know, whether he will he have to go to the toilet in front of somebody else? And, you know, I think that was cut, but that was a worry. You know, all those worries that you think, actually, the reality, of going to prison. But it's not something that I, you know, I just, I get the scope so you play it scene by scene. You can't play, otherwise you're playing a wash of something,

a generalized thing, which doesn't work. Yeah, that makes sense to me. And I'm curious in terms of those specifics about Tom's concerns, you know, he mentions in this episode, the prison blogs he's been reading, his prison consultant, et cetera. Do those things actually exist? Do those things actually exist and have you looked into them? at all.

I did not look into any prison blogs, but I just, I think they do exist. I think the writers went on to the prison blogs and had a good old rummage around and came out, you know, discovered toilet wine, which is a thing. You have to burp the bag. And if you don't burp the fermented, it's ketchup and fruit juice, I think. And if you don't burp it, it explodes. I love that he has terrible wine in this episode as maybe a preview for the prison wine to come. Yeah.

And they really, he really tries to like it, you know, and it's so funny. I think calling it vegetal is my favorite effort. Vegetal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You kind of have to meet it halfway, says. It's because it's rank. Yeah.

The first diner scene with Greg, as you're trying to work your way through this food to to prepare yourself. Yeah. It's interesting to me because Tom has already said in this episode, you know, that he has given up hoping for things, that he's given up sort of his optimism. But it still feels like something further dies, like is extinguished in him

when Greg asks him to sort of take on his crimes. Like, was there something left in Tom that was burning brightly for Greg that sort of snuffs out in that moment? I think he's okay with sort of taking it for Greg because actually he's still doing something, you know, in Tom's world, it's like offering himself up

as the beating post for Logan. He's doing a good turn for somebody that hopefully will be repaid, maybe down the line. And if he really believes that it's inevitable, an inevitability that he'll go to jail, then it's why not take it for Greg as well. That was a great fun scene.

That was very, very, very, very difficult to get through without laughing. We were in trouble. There was a moment when he says, Tom, they wipe their ass on your pillowcase. And I was gone. And I had a mouthful of hash brown as well. And we, I was, it was really hard.

It was really, really hard. How long did it take you to film that? Longer than it ought to have done. Is that true in general of your scenes with Nick? Are they hard to get? Some of them, yeah. Some of them are really, because they're just so funny, you know. And I, I love working.

I just buzz off what Nick does. So it's good fun. And then you've got this very differently. flavored scene with Kendall with Jeremy Strong. It's such an interesting moment because the same location, different energy, and we're watching this episode and Tom does feel so primed to be flipped. Like it seems like he is a great candidate for this, that Kendall's instincts to go after Tom are very smart. And then Kendall bungles it. So like, what do you think is the biggest mistake that Kendall makes in this encounter?

Well, he always ups it up. I mean, he's just that's, I mean, I say to him, you know, I've seen you get fucked a lot and I've never seen. Logan wouldn't have done that. Logan wouldn't have invoked Shiv. And that's Kendall's mistake. And the mistake is underestimating Tom, I think. You know, he says, do you think Shiv will still be there after prison?

You know, and I think something in Tom just goes cold, you know. And I think in that moment, Tom sees Kendall's weakness. you know, I think it's a mistake, you know, maybe it's a mistake to think of Tom as totally spina. I mean, he is, of course, but he's not totally spineless because he wouldn't be able to operate in that world, you know. And so, and he is always observing, you know, even if he gets it wrong, he's always seeing what they're doing. And, you know, I think he probably has a better read on siblings and how they operate and their MOs, you know, than we think, than even he thinks. Do you think also in that Shiv comment that that, that

Kendall makes, a mistake he makes is indicating that there isn't actually a love story there, which Tom does actually very much believe in. Yeah. Do you know? Yeah. And I think Tom, yes, I do. And even if Tom isn't quite persuaded of it, for someone else to comment on his marriage, it's not, you know, it's not right.

Like, it's a line that Kendall crosses. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And, I mean, it feels like he's prodding right at a sore insecurity spot. for Tom because there is this, there's this, um, moment in the previous episode where Tom is talking about wanting to have kids with Chavonne and it, and it bleeds into this episode as well. And what do you see as, as Tom's main motivation for wanting to get her pregnant before he goes

into jail? I think he's just panicked that he's going to lose her and, you know, I think, you know, it's a way of trying to normalize it and make it happy and, you know, trying to grant, you know, I think, I mean, she's the least, I can't, you know, it's sort of hilarious that he's trying to impregnate her before he gets away. Right. So they can have a baby when he gets out. But like a lot of the things, Tom thinks it's a sexy thing or thinks it's a romantic, you know, it's like proposing to her while her father's on his deathbed. Right. Just like so, it's so wrong, but with good intentions, you know. He says it's supposed to be nice. You're making it sound horrible, And it's nice what I'm saying to have a baby.

Like what you're trying to get, you know, getting a spy on the inside or something. Nice. Yeah, it's really interesting that you say this thing about Tom always watching. Something I've noticed about Greg too. Greg is always at the right place at the right time and always watching. And there's this great sequence after Tom leaves Kendall. And we watch him just go through the hotel. We see him like observe Greg in the bar and go upstairs.

And, you know, it's one of those classic succession shots where the camera's just on the back. of your head as you're walking through rooms. And you go into this room where basically the future of the presidency is being decided, right? And I'm curious, you said this incredible thing about the way in which the show was positioned not to be about the Trump presidency, but accidentally did sort of, was sort of seen through the lens of Trump for the last two seasons. This is the first season where we're watching it outside of that administration, which is a relief to many people.

And it's the season that feels the most political. And so I was wondering, you know, if you had any thoughts about the show leaning into the politics of it all this season. I mean, we did the, we did the read through with the pilot on Election Day in 2016. And then we've done, we actually did the pilot, well, we did two seasons during the whole Trump presidency. Yeah. And then we started shooting the third in November when.

I forget when Biden was elected in November. I remember, so it was like bookended. So it's so interesting. And then to do that stuff in that hotel in Virginia and, you know, it's fascinating how it leads in to the culture. And, you know, yeah, it's sort of endlessly interesting. I don't know. I couldn't speak as to whether the shows did.

I mean, it's always sort of been political in that way, but I don't remember. I found that really interesting that episode because I didn't know about that sort of convention and how, you know, how they'll sort of get together and choose who the likely candidate will be and all the rest of it.

But I found all that really interesting. As, you know, one of the members of the cast who's not American, when you learn about the ways in which media and power and politics are also intermingled in America, is it, does it feel similar to how it is in the UK or very different? It seems much more, I mean,

it's become very polarized, the same in the UK, I suppose. all those prime ministers from Tony, you know, Tony Blair and Cameron beating, having a sort of audience with Rupert Murdoch, you know, as they took the reins of power. I mean, it's like Logan Roy and the raisin. Exactly. What's the, I'm curious if you have an example for this, if there's sort of the wildest thing that you've, that has played out on the show that you found out was based on a true story. Do you know, that you're like, surely this has to be fiction and then no, it's actually real? I don't know. There are certain things which I really... There's a throwaway line. And you never know.

There's a throwaway line about... He's talking about the guy who organizes the sort of conference in the Republican Party conference. And it says... If someone whispers, someone says, oh, he blew his friend's archery teacher. And it's just a sort of a side. Or things like that, you sort of think,

Is that gossip or is that just from the minds of, I don't know who it was, Will Tracy or whoever wrote that episode? That's the skill, isn't it? It's sort of weaving anecdote and truth into, you know, and fiction into the storylines. Into the stew. Yeah, it's so interesting to me. And one of the things that I love about Tom,

who's such, I just one of the most slippery characters to sort of get your arms around because he's got so much going on inside of him. but is this idea of Midwestern Nice or Minnesota Nice, one of my colleagues wrote about this recently about Tom and this idea of the Midwestern Nice. And I'm wondering if you had a sense of that aspect of Tom about his Midwestern roots and how that.

Yeah, that's a big amount of who he is. And I think he had, I suspect he had a really lovely upbringing, you know, and very secure and safe. Like the polar opposite to Shiv and the siblings. where they were sort of, you know, they sort of floated about from one elite establishment to another in their educational lives and really seeing their parents and sort of weird holidays and nannies. But I think Tom probably had a really lovely, I think he's an own child maybe. And you meet his parents in season one, if you remember, but they were really nice people, you know. I was hoping that Tom's lawyer mom could help him with his predicament this season.

I know, I was hoping, yeah, well, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. But I think Tom is fascinating because he is like, he's just, there's just a lot of people seemingly jumping around inside Tom. He's like a, you know, he's, and I think we all do that. We put on a, you know, there's that T.S. Eliot line in one of his. Proofrock. Proofrock. He says, you put on the face to meet the faces that you meet.

And he does that all the time. It's, you know, we all do, I think. But, you know, Tom is sort of. he'll he's sort of like a shape shifter there's no he's like a sort of amoeba you know who are now you know exactly for an actor that's a gift because you're like well i don't you know i'm i don't have to prepare anything i just have to sort of pay attention to who i'm with and adjust accordingly you know sarah gave it loves giving one of your lines is her favorite line from the season do you have a favorite line that someone else said this season there's one there's some wonderful

ones that Sarah has about doing chin-ups and reading mouse cards and all this, but one of my favourites, only because I've just seen it on my iPad was, it's Nick sort of dealing with, he tries to make a pass at Comfrey, who he's got a crush on, and he sort of, he goes into a sort of southern gentleman accent and starts calling her Fair Major and I'm just, I can't. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you, really. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. All right, that is it for us this week on Deep Time Tuesdays. The two of us will be back next week for Ken's 40th, obviously, with another very special guest.

On this feed, the Prestiachie Veed, there is not a succession pre-cap this week from Chris Ryan and Waz, but what you will hear is Chris Ryan and myself talking about The Great, which is an incredible show that if you aren't watching, you should be. We will make a case for that and then also dig into season two and what we love. Talking about fantastic performances on television right now, Nicholas Holtz on the great all-timer. I love it. Hey, Joanna, happy Thanksgiving to you. Happy Thanksgiving to you. See you next week. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's remarkably bright creatures. What if a Pacific octopus held the key to a mystery that could heal your heart? Well, that's Tova's reality. An elderly widow working at an aquarium. Tova forms an unlikely friendship

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